you've never visited my place how do you know because if you had you'd know that you're talking a load of your argument has nothing to do with exactly what I do so until you are abusing your animals no I'm not you do I've actually killed human beings this is your farmer [Music] [Music] welcome back to the um uh to the final bracket of the debates ladies and gentlemen we have the vegans on the left [Applause] Farmers on the right [Applause] all right so we're going to start off with the first que
stion and you've got two minutes you know what let's just free roll it all right who wants to free roll it yeah yeah let's do it all right let's go all right your statement Ash saying if you're not a vegan you're an animal abuser please elaborate yes so all animal Industries including the meat Dairy and egg Industries leather wool Fur Feather scales they're all inherently abusive and they all murder animals to make profit from them or once they're considered no longer profitable to the industrie
s animals are blatantly abused in these industries I could run plenty examples I'll start with the meat industry an example is pigs they are six months old when they're forced into carbon dioxide gas Chambers and they literally burn from the inside out we've been outside these slaughterhouses hearing these pigs scream we've been inside piggeries and seeing babies dying on the floor having seizures we've seen mothers in these crates With Tears in their eyes because they spend their entire life in
a crate forced to repeatedly give birth to these babies this is the meat industry let's move on to the dairy industry where mothers and once they are give birth after a nine-month pregnancy her baby is often immediately taken away from her why so you can drink her breast milk if her baby is born male he's murdered he's shot in the head on the spot by the farmer or he's sent to a slaughterhouse to be processed as veal we're talking about babies just days to weeks old this is the dairy industry i
n the egg industry chickens are forced to lay hundreds more eggs than they're naturally bred to and the male chicks are macerated on their first day of life because they're born male so that's the same in the dairy industry the males are murdered as babies because they're not considered profitable these industries subject animals to enslavement torture abuse and murder and they should have the right to live just like we do and we need to stop oppressing species if you don't believe me you can go
onto YouTube and watch Dominion it's an Australian documentary we've both met people who took the footage in these industries they suffer from severe PTSD from what they've witnessed they risk their lives to get this footage it's not propaganda see it for yourself we've both been inside these places and we've seen what is happening to non-human animals and it is an absolute atrocity it is more than abuse it's the largest Holocaust in history with three trillion individuals brutally murdered eve
ry year how do you know because if you had you'd know that you are talking a load of and what animals do you farm what is your industry first and foremost um I run a goat dairy now for a start we don't have animals yes you use euphemisms such as artificial insemination which I don't use artificial insemination I run my bucks with my herd my bucks get the girls when the girls are in season and only then and it's their choice Nature's choice we allow our kids to stay on their mother we only take t
he excess milk so you're talking a load of but you're making profit from animals right they're Commodities to you so that they can get food they get fed they get fed better than I do because the argument here is that no your argument your arguments your argument has nothing to do with exactly what I do so until you are abusing your animals no I'm not you do yes if I'm abusing my animals why is it that I can walk out in a paddock I can call them by name and every single one of my animals come up
and want to rub their faces on me if I'm abusing him why are they so friendly to me can you tell me what happens once they're considered no longer profitable to you they are not they're never considered no no longer profitable to me once they can no longer produce breast milk they reach a certain age that's the other thing where you say that we the thing is my goats I've got one there that's been Milking for five years and she's produces three and a half liters of milk addiction you didn't answe
r our question what question was that once they're considered no longer profitable when they can no longer breast milk because I eat them because I'm a canine and is that abuse or not no it's not I eat the damn things how did that I kill them you kill them myself not abuse no if you were to be killed would that be a form of abuse no no okay I've done that I've actually killed human beings I was a soldier I'm an ex-soldier this is your farmer I'm an ex-soldier I'm not I'm not everyday farmer I'm
just gonna happen to be an ex-soldier so I have killed people but I have killed people at the instigation of the government not my choice yeah but you murder animals and you may profit from them I don't murder animals yes you do can I just can you tell me that sorry can I just interject very quickly I think where we're getting lost here in the conversation is you guys want to know at what time do the animals get killed when they're okay do the animals get killed when they're sick do they die of
old age well by the time I'm prematurely okay by the time I the animals are no longer viable there's milkers they're 16 or 17 years of age now if you want to put that into an equivalent human being age they're 75. okay and what do we do with human beings when they're 75 do we kill them well a lot of people would like to I'm 70. but what we're saying here regardless of whether they're murdered or not which they blatantly are murdered the act of actually breeding animals into existence and using t
hem as slaves and commodities to consume their breast milk is absolutely unnecessary we do not need to be enslaving others of different species to be consuming their breast milk replace it with humans and you'll see how immoral it is what if we got a group of female women and enslaved them and started stealing their breast milk from them and there's no doubt that their babies are taken away from them I think you're blatantly lying there their babies are taken away from them so you can make profi
t from her breast milk in your mouth he doesn't want it in the babies the babies are murdered no they're not they still that my babies are running around in the paddock what happens to the males the males well those that I can't sell as breeding stock I keep until they're around about two years old and then I eat them I'll admit it you have the choice you're not a carnivore no I don't have a choice and my choice survive on a plant-based my choice is I like to eat meat wait one second you just sa
id you're not a carnivore what do you mean by that well humans are omnivores so that means we can Thrive and survive on a plant-based diet so yeah otherwise excuse me excuse me dear you said omnivore which means that we eat both meat and plant-based products we have a choice yeah all right so just because you have made your choice don't put your choice on me I want to be able to choose for myself all right so just to quickly touch on the can humans thrive on a plant-based diet solely no animals
it is completely doable leading yeah so leading dietetic associations people that study the human diet around the world are all at the consensus that we can thrive on a plant-based diet in Dubai in a lot of drinks you know a lot of drink in Australia you are like it comes down to it comes down to choice so just because exactly just because you like this chosen nothing you think does not mean the next person has to go and where the issue is and I'm not I could hear any sides here as a meat eater
myself like um just because you've chosen not to eat meat no one no one would better eye if you don't eat meat sure the problem is is when you try to push your ideologies on other people to eat meat I'm glad you're broken I am glad you brought this up because that's a that's an important thing to consider the fact that we have a choice you're taking the choice away from animals they have a right to live and by eating meat you drink drink what do you drink liquor do you smoke weed uh no I do not
you do not no I don't know no okay I'll just continue with that I'll just I'll just finish that at least so we're saying we have the choice we do have the choice you can choose to consume animals if you want to you can murder and abuse them via farmers and paying your money to Farmers to do it but you do have a choice and that's because the animals do not have a choice they are forced into carbon dioxide gas Chambers as Tash said in the pig industry or at least they're going to have a shot to th
eir head if any of you are in those animals position I'm sure you wouldn't want that to happen to you if your oppressor has a choice you would want them to choose the choice of non-violence and peace what about plants do they have a choice do plants have a choice are you saying they're sentient and they have a nervous system [Applause] that slicing a carrot is the same as slitting a pig's throat yes we're gonna let them in the front talk about it all right we've got a question here he's got he's
got a point what would you like to say about this like your 18 choices but as an animal because we're all animals like blind whatever you are anyway oh like wines but it doesn't matter what age they'll eat any animal like how does that different form for humans but no no the thing is right you know what a lion also does a male lion will go and eat the female Lion's Cubs so that the lion kill mate with the female so you can't really use that argument there you know what I mean but but it's a up
word you know what I mean because it's like the Lions just eat in the Cubs and now the female's gonna him you know what I mean like can you imagine that why I'm just using like a Pacific Avenue like it could be if any animal eats like yeah the question is should we base our morality on what other species are engaging in that's a perfect example other species are engaging in and murdering their own young so does that excuse humans to do the same I I let's bring it back to the promise let's bring
it back to them let them have their Viewpoint we'll have a we might have a section for you guys um well we produce food and try and produce the best quality food we can what public want to eat if they want to eat mate we'll try and produce the best lamb chops best steak Fisheries whatever the public want to eat that's what we try and do best vegetables best cereals and we're revolving Industries we're always regulated extremely regulated now we get more and more regulations live exports are clas
sic one if we didn't export into these other countries we saw the disturbing footage in Indonesia a few years ago well whether it was or not if that's their culture it would stop to us before we went in there trying to educate them you wouldn't stop it they'd get their sheep from somewhere else so while we're still involved and if we can stay involved we can try and educate these other countries and make more Humane but I like to eat my steak I like eating my chops and I'll produce the best qual
ity I can for it so I'm a predator my eyes are in front if I wasn't well yeah the side of my head so but I I'll have to give you one point I disagree with factory farming okay I believe in free-range bombing which is what we do the animals have a free life out in attics they are not in a factory they're not locked into a small area they're not locked into yards they're not locked into little boxes like you I I disagree totally with the description of farming that you've described unfortunately w
e imported that from the sappos and if you don't want to know what that is there's a bloke in the room that I I could say that it is it's from America all right we imported that type of farming from America and I don't agree with it and I'd like to see it ban personally because I believe that animals should be allowed to have a free life while they're alive but I like I agree with him I'll produce meat because I like to eat it and I like to produce it the best way I can and I run my animals as e
thically as I can in the modern world so like I said if you want to see how animals can be run ethically you're welcome to come and visit and I have seen people write absolute on my website about how I treat my animals they've never visited me so they have no idea yeah I don't think we'll be visiting you you said you kill humans so we'll leave that one I have killed humans I didn't say I do it now I said I've done it in the past I didn't have a choice I was sent to a fight in a war that I had no
choice with once again it was a war we inherited from The Americans [Music] I didn't I was conscripted I didn't have a choice so can I just respond back to the free range things firstly um whether or not the animal is free range or not they're still sent to the same murder Factory where they're shot in the head or forced into a carbon dioxide gas chamber that is standard legal industry practice whether they're coming from the meat industry dairy egg wool industry Etc all animal Industries are i
nherently abusive and murder animals for profit or once they're considered no longer profitable to the industry in saying that there's actually no legal framework as to what the term pre-range means in Australia and I've been inside free range Farms where animals are living in their own feces in big dark sheds and it's horrific it is not the free range that you would expect they're not living out in pastures yes I know that there is a small minority where they are however they're still enslaved
and commodified and they're used for their flesh and secretions or their wool Etc it's still abuse and murder and it's unnecessary and we do not need to be contributing to this anymore there is an abundance of vegan options in our supermarkets and it's so easy to choose the non-animal abuse over the animal abuse product and it's time to consider others of different species because they have a right to live just like us where are we going to produce the food to feed the people you said the superm
arket food doesn't grow in a supermarket grows on a farm it's all about supply and demand so if there's an increase in the demand for plant-based Foods then that product will be produced right it's all about supply and demand as you just said it is all about supply and demand but as Urban spreads all your fruit or your veggie going areas are declining so where do they go they can't go out in the desert you can run cattle and goats out in the desert yeah so I mean the studies that have been done
that if you were to stop all animal farming in the world tomorrow we'll clear up as much land as Africa the actual continent of Africa we only need a fraction of that to produce plant-based foods to feed humans it would actually clear up land would be saving Land by choosing a plant-based diet there'd be less farming required as compared to the amount of land required for animal-based and more chemicals to use to control yeah I mean you can grow organic it's pretty simple is it is it what was th
e country that went organic and stopped them using phosphates and now they're starving Sri Lanka [Music] just just let them go at the moment what questions example later but can I ask the president real quick um [Applause] all right and I both think he's gonna answer this as well what um what are the what are the repercussions in perhaps not um the average go um that's two cycles a year all right the average goat has two cycles a year now if they're allowed to mate freely in those two cycles the
y will produce up to four kids a year now each kid has a 50 chance of being male or female if it's a male nine times out of ten the senior buck in the herd will belt the crap out of them and kill them and then eliminate with the females which will then produce another four kids a year so pretty soon we're going to be overrun with animals but if they're farmed then we control their breeding so yeah I guess these pros and cons for that talked about food production how many people here understand w
hat happens when you grow GMO food for um pesticide resistance you know what the difference is between food that's grown Geo mode for pesticide resistance and food that's grown normally you can't use the seeds but also they can use 10 times as much pesticide on it because it's pesticide resistant so you're drinking you're eating 10 times as much pesticide if you eat GMOs I think we need to come down to your farm and spend a night there sounds like a lovely place let's do it would you like to rev
ital yes so every year 70 billion land animals are forcibly bred into existence for human food consumption this is only happening again because of supply and demand they wouldn't be bred into existence in the first place if there were no demand to consume their flesh their secretions where their skin will Etc they just would not exist and that's exactly what we're saying here today we have the power as an individual to create change and not pay people to and forcibly breed these animals into exi
stence to be subjected to enslavement torture abuse and murder and by purchasing the plant-based product we are increasing the demand for that and less animals are bred into existence into a life of enslavement abuse so what about they wouldn't exist what about in the case of um like the wild boar situation that we have here will have an influx of wild boar exactly and it's like Open Season where you can actually kill the world war because they uh is that inhumane or like how like what's your ta
ke on that yeah could you answer the question of if we did stop all farming tomorrow and we all lived off a plant-based diet how would like the farmers have told us how would the influx of animals be you know that would obviously be a problem how are we going to control that if we're just eating plant-based diet not saying that I disagree I think if you want to choose to have a plant-based diet that is completely up to you if you want to eat meat at the end of the day we know the consequences of
both we know the consequences of GMOs on individuals eating 10 times as much pesticide we know the um global warming of with the CO2 carbon monoxide from cows can I comment back on that yes of course the man of sheep and cattle in New Zealand produce as much co2s as one air flight from Auckland to Christchurch routine it's just nice how would we control the amount of animals that breed naturally without any human intervention okay so what you've mentioned here is a very hypothetical scenario th
e reality is that the world isn't just going to go vegan or at least plant-based overnight it's a gradual process of supply and demand so that's the reality it's a gradual process and that means the increased demand for plant-based foods will increase the demand for vegan options and the decreased demand for animal products would mean that less animals are being bred into existence it's not like the world's suddenly going to go vegan and there's billions of animals just existing they wouldn't th
at less would be great but like we we are not out there like open game Kangaroos and wild boars but yet we have an influx of that to a point where there was where you can actually go hunt them to actually decrease the population of it so what happens with the rest of the other populations that we're not monitoring because we we can't put them all on birth controls man right so that already occurs with the kangaroos that's not necessarily true because there's South Wales has actually been a parli
amentary inquiry to show local extensions of kangaroos so that's just actually not the reality here introduced species those problems have happened because of humans local extinctions humans are the most invasive and destructive species on this planet why are we putting our own problems upon others of different species we should let animals live in their natural environments freely to use this excuse to continue abusing and murdering animals is just not excusable if I ask a question here an indi
go one in Australia is of introduced species we've got more feral goats camels and brumbies than any other country in the world are we allowed to uh coal Barrel animals to feed people is that something that's ethically I guess acceptable within your vegan framework or is culling say camels that are running rampant in Outback Australia do they have to live in their natural environment given that they're invasive spaces great question well yeah it's going back again on the fact that humans are the
most destructive and invasive species so does that mean we should start a human coal absolutely not so why should we put that upon others of different species and justify murder for the own issues that humans themselves have created so absolutely not I don't agree with Murder full stop where do you stand so all like drum skins are from an animal right do you like Bob Marley percussion instruments generally like are we allowed to use animal skins on drums or is that uh is that out the window as
well like are we taking veganism is not only about our food choices it's an ethical View and that means in any form not abusing them and murdering them when it's unnecessary there are vegan Alternatives I'm sure there's plenty of synthetic materials instead of shooting someone in the head and turning their bodies into a musical instrument a piece of clothing does that go for like insect report what if the animal's really dead like and then you eat it yeah it's not causing abuse and murder so I d
on't know why anyone would want to consume someone's dead body sitting there but yeah it doesn't it's it's not involved excellent animal abuser then so you're wearing no you're wearing a belt that belt is that belt from leather or is that a an artificial yeah it's vegan leather yeah okay but it's leather okay yeah it's not someone's skin it's it's so it's an actually an artificial product yeah it's vegan yes no it's an artificial product yes that's the question I'm asking no one was shot in the
head for my belt yeah but it is it is leather from an animal no it's vegan leather so it's a synthetic material and no God that produced as much CO2 as driving my car from here to Darwin that's correct can I see the scientific resources well you've only got to go to go to who the United Nations who website that will actually show you that for every 500 grams of synthetic material created it uses as much it produces as much CO2 as driving 2 000 kilometers agriculture is responsible for more green
house gases than the world's entire transport Factory House of other species so we're going a little bit off topic here no factory farming I agree with you it produces as much methane as cars but there and there animals are not being fed a proper diet so I agree with you on factory farming it produces methane but free range animals don't reduce any greenhouse gases sure you can have happened the literature to actually show me that but we're not here to argue about environment we're here to about
say that there's a vegan alternative so why would you subject someone to enslavement tortured for a belt but it's all part of it it's all part of the environment yeah and as we said like there's no difference between the free range and the factory farmed yes the factory farm animals have to suffer a lot more throughout their lives but whether they're free range or not they're all shot in the head they all die when they don't have to they're murdered their life is taken away from them when it di
dn't happen they do have to be because I want to eat the damn things [Music] everyone lives and dies no one no one lives forever does that justify murder is that a justification to take someone's life if you have to survive yes we're not talking about survival here plenty of species require animal flesh for their survival and if you are in a survival situation then yeah it probably would be excusable to take someone's life to eat their bodies but you can actually go into the supermarket and choo
se a plant-based option you don't have to subject someone to enslavement torture abuse and murder I think the debate here and yes there are definitely so many vegan options yes it may be more expensive but yes you are saving a lot of animals pink what we're trying to say here is that very difficult to ask people to be vegan when they then meet their whole lives it is definitely a choice like eating meat is a choice becoming vegan is a choice I eat meat and I think you know live exports are horri
ble I am doing my part wherever I can to not eat meat but at the end of the day it is my choice and whether I want to change that that is up to me personally so it is everyone's individual opinion on whether they want to eat meat or not and thank you very much detrimental to your help look I think I think that's all you're going to eat I think this is good for you I think you know what's hard being a dairy cow who is her entire life and had her babies taken away from them to be shot in the head
so you can consume her breast milk that is hard there is no justification to continue this is an atrocity here we're talking about individuals who are being subjected to enslavement torture abuse and murder and to say oh it's hard I think this deserves a round two we've got a lot of other things on the night and you know thank you very much both of you guys for coming down we're running a bit short on time one question let's let's get let's get two questions out two questions all right because o
therwise um uh hello Madam uh what's your name Rebecca there you go you got the microphone thank you can we just have a perhaps to frame the next discussion is that it appears that on one side we've got a fundamental belief that animals and humans are the same kind of thing or being with the same rights the same experiences and that therefore under that belief system eating an animal is a rape murder atrocity I believe was the tagline um and then on this side we've got uh there seems to be a fun
damental belief that animals and humans are a somewhat different kind of being and that therefore there is an ethical argument for eating animals whereas under that belief framework there isn't one so you know if we could perhaps address that in the next section it might be really productive thanks Ryan do we want to just touch on that real quick was that a question like a quick one yeah so that's not our position like that that's not our belief we don't believe that we're the exact same as non-
human animals there are differences but we're similar in all the ways that matter we feel pain we suffer and we all have a desire to live and if we don't have to have our life taken away from us if it's completely unnecessary which it is um that's the similarity between us and non-humans okay uh yeah my name is Ryan I'm just gonna touch on a couple of points that you mentioned I think one of them was that a point in which that um we can the whole world can go vegan so the whole world the whole w
orld went vegan right in the next couple of years do we understand the level of impact that it's going to have on third world countries because a lot of these countries actually survive of farming so how so what remedy do you have for these who are third world countries this is more than 80 of the population in the world who actually survive on meat because it's a lot cheaper than having vegan products yeah so plant-based foods are the most fundamental Foods you know we're talking about a diet t
hat's based around whole grains legumes nuts seeds fruits vegetables we can get all the nutrients we need from a plant-based diet we can thrive on a plant-based diet whether you're in a third world country or not if we shifted our farming practices towards plant-based farming and we farmed foods that meet those categories of plant-based food groups we can all thrive on that plant-based diet so yeah it doesn't really matter I know there's differences currently between the farming systems but as T
ash touched on before supply and demand and it's a gradual shift so as we start to put money towards plant-based Food Systems that's how the world will change no I think what he was saying was like how would those that actually Thrive off and pay their bills their mortgage their light bills and everything from farming once you cut that off like okay they've got um bad things right to deliver but what now happens with that economy and that structure of how they survive and actually like Prosper a
s human beings yeah it's a gradual shift no one's going to cut it off tomorrow I mean that's a very hypothetical situation that's not going to happen it is gradual and with all economies that's how the blind demand works as the population demand for food groups changes I.E as we shift let's say from an animal-based diet to a plant-based diet and no one's eating 100 plant animal based diet there are the few extremes but as a society as a whole it's probably predominantly plant-based foods with an
imal-based Foods in there and all you're doing is you're just swapping out that animal-based protein source and swapping with plant-based so you're not really changing the entire agricultural system you're just shifting a small part of it and that yeah well actually actually I I've got a comment there I'll just say that you know basically I I'd say I'm a vegetarian because you see even though I eat animals those animals eat vegetables and plants I'm just eating a value-added product coming out t
onight um Ahmed a big round of applause to Tash and potatoes [Applause] big round of applause to John and Sasha for coming down these guys drove 150 plus kilometers for the show thank you very much Sasha thank you [Applause] [Music]
Comments