I've Written 12 Books: Here Are Tips That Can Help Every Writer - Andrew Warren [FULL INTERVIEW]

Film Courage: When did you move to Los  Angeles? 

Andrew: I moved to Los Angeles in 1996 and I had shot a low-budget independent  film with some friends of mine in New Jersey. They actually already lived in Los Angeles. They  were people I’d gone to film school with so one of them came back to New Jersey, we shot the movie  and then we came to Los Angeles to edit it because another friend of mine was working in a post house  and he could get us on the Avids [editing system] after hours at night

and it was only supposed to  be for 6 months was was the plan so I came here with like maybe three grand and like and I crashed  on sofas and it ended up taking of course years so I got had to get a job and the years went by  and by the time we finished the movie I had a whole life out here at that point so I said  well I guess I live in Los Angeles now so that was how I ended up here what was your reality  like after a couple of years hm that's a tough one I would say it was probably pretty no

rmal  pretty average I mean I I got a job at a small production company and I started out as a talent  manager's assistant and from that position I sort of worked my way through that company I don't  know if I work I don't know if I'd say I worked my way up but I worked my way to other positions  in that company and I eventually wound up being in charge of all the camera equipment production  equipment on a TV show that they launched called blind date which was very successful for them and  went

on for many years and I worked with them for I'd say like five or six years on that show and  that kind of led to other other jobs and other career opportunities and things but mostly on the  behind these scenes side versus the creative side so while that was always going on I was always  in the background writing or trying to come up with ideas and stuff like that but most of my work  was more Technical and so did you see how if you got like a regular job on reality TV or whatever  you could m

ake a very good living but maybe some of the creativity wouldn't be absolutely in fact  I would say I could have I think a big part of it is like believing yourself and like putting  yourself out there because looking back I'm sure I could have had more creative opportunities if  ID reached for them but I think I wasn't I don't think my confidence was super high at that time  I do know guys that started off as Pas and went on to become segment producers or story producers  so I think absolutely

if someone wants to get into the business like just you have to get your foot  in the door somehow so it's take find a PA job find an assistant job just get started you never  know who you're going to meet or where it's going to lead you and I couldn't have predicted even the  path that I took would not have seemed obvious to me at the beginning so but then I think you had a  a I don't know if you get busy living or get busy dying oh you must have read one of my interview  it yeah that came that

actually came much later I mean I was out here for many years before that  and I think that's kind of what I mean when I say I I don't think I think I think everything  that I ended up achieving I probably could have achieved about 10 years earlier than I did if  I had been more confident and if ID trusted in myself and most importantly not allowed myself  to get discouraged and I think you hear this a lot that it's obviously it's a tough business and  there's going to always be more NOS than y

eses but I think it's you just have to really understand  that prepare for it and just keep keep plugging away keep trying keep working on your own things  and not don't be shy about putting yourself out there because I think that moment you're talking  about came many years later but it could have come sooner in my opinion when I look back on my  life do you think it was confidence or playing it safe probably both a little of both I mean what  happened with me was I think I allowed myself to ge

t discouraged early on because I had like I  said we had made this independent film we moved out here we finished it and the film turned out  for what it was it turned out okay we did sell it actually which is rare but we certainly didn't  make a lot of money off of it not we weren't we couldn't stop working it was a very small deal but  the next thing I worked on was a screenplay for a a horror movie that my dream at the time which  I to me seemed like a very modest dream I'm sure it isn't but

I really wanted to work with Roger  Corman he was a hero of mine and I always loved be movies and monster movies and horror movies those  kinds of things and so I had written this script it was a kind of a retro 50s giant bug movie kind  of thing and it was optioned by producers working with Roger Corman and I was on top of the world  I mean I was like this is it like this is the way it's meant to be like it's happening and of  course it ended up just not working out I mean I don't who knows I t

hink I think Roger at that  time had some deal with some German financing that fell through and I never actually met him in  person or anything like that it was just through these producers working with him and that project  just went away like most projects do and I think because I had because it seemed so perfect and  so exactly what I wanted when it didn't happen I think that just took took the wind out of my sales  for a while and it was a long time before I really started putting myself out

there creatively  after that and that was a mistake I should have just kept at it I was reading actually read  a a Japanese proverb last night that stood out to me if you if you get knocked down eight times  pick yourself up nine and I think that is the way this business works for sure do how to say it  in Japanese no I speak a tiny bit in Japanese but not not very much okay what kind of job were you  working when you started writing Tokyo black and can you tell us about your get busy living or

get  busy dying moments sure I mean first of all to be clear it wasn't the the the type of job that was  so bad it just wasn't where I was wasn't a good fit for me I was doing post- production sales  which I had done before at other places and I I I enjoy post-production work like I mentioned  I still do some postup supervising freelance but just this particular place and the particular  mix of people and and clients and everything it just wasn't a good fit for me where I was and I  wasn't very

happy there I had ALS o gone through a divorce fairly recently at that point and I  had always wanted to write a book and I'd tried too many times I'd probably had four or five like  unfinished novels laying around and I just decided I don't know what it was but one night I was like  well I'm not super happy where I am right now I need to start working on some changes and I one of  the things I could do is I could write a book it's something I've always wanted wanted to do like  why don't why c

an't I just do it and I had taken a trip to Japan not super was probably may like  five years or so before that point but I really enjoyed it and I really wanted to go back but it  just for timing and money and work and everything I just couldn't do it and I thought well I could  write a book set in Japan and that would sort of be a mental vacation I could kind of go there  mentally and so I was like well what kind of book would I could I write there and spy thrower just  seemed to kind of go wi

th that location really well like Tokyo and think neon lights and secret  agents and spy stuff and so I just sat up this one night and honestly almost everything from that  book came from this one night of brainstorming where I just it was like a flash of inspiration I  mean even even the title I mean it all I was just like okay it'll be about this guy what's his name  Thomas Kane and what's it called Tokyo black what is Tokyo black and so all that bring brainstorming  really almost all of it ma

de it into the book in the end and that was where that started however  I didn't finish it around that time I'd say I got about halfway and kind of lost steam it was I'd  never finished a novel and I it's it's a tough undertaking until you've done it a few times but  a few years later I was working at a place that I really enjoyed working at things were great and I  had a a new girlfriend friend and she was over at my apartment and I don't remember if she wanted to  read something I wrote or if

it was just sitting around but somehow she started reading the first  half of this manuscript that was like on my desk and she got really into it and of course she's  not an unbiased opinion so at first I didn't take it too seriously but she would keep asking  me questions about it like well what's going to happen to this character like is is this guy  really the bad guy and like she seemed really invested in it and that sort of got me to see it  in a new light because I think when you're writin

g I mean when you're writing anything but especially  a novel which is the sprawling thing that's going to take a long time to finish it's really hard  to assess your work like is it good is it bad and even more so in a rough draft so I had really  didn't know in my head like what this was or what it could be but seeing someone else read it and  get invested in it kind of lit the fire again and so that job was a freelance job I knew it was  coming to an end and I also knew I had another job with

those same people in about two or three  months like they were booked back to back so I knew I had this Gap and I said well I know I have  this two or three month Gap and I know where my money is coming from for the rest of the year so  why don't I see if I can finish this book and I'd say that was the point where I really got serious  about writing where I like made it a scheduled thing and I would sit down at 9:00 a.m. and work  until lunch and I would keep a word count and I didn't finish it

but I came pretty I say I knocked  off another quarter and that experience of working in that way was a very transformative for me I  was like oh I can do this I can actually fit I can figure out now how to fit this in and even if  I have a job if I set aside this time here I can write this many words and so when that second job  finished I went back to the writing I finished up the book and it that that was the start of it all  how many pages had you written when you kind of Shel it for a litt

le while it was about half the  manuscript so I would say in in in novels versus screenplays you really think more in word count  and in Pages because the page is totally dependent on formatting and font size and all that so I  must have been the book was about 85,000 words so I must have been around the 30 to 40,000 word  Mark at that point so it was enough that you could kind of start to get a sense of the story and and  kind of get the flow of it and where it was going because that that that'

s what led her to I think  start asking all those questions an unfinished story is I think if you're on the right track  anyway it's like a it's like it's like a itch you you just have to know like well where's this  going or what's going to happen to this person and when you sat down that one night where you kind  of had this Dark Night of the soul that I've got to do something and Port it out was this just an  outline on your computer or like a it wasn't even an outline at yet I would say it w

as just notes  just random notes I knew I wanted it to be set in Japan and I wanted to be a spy Thriller I there's  in the Spy Thriller a lot of spy thrower authors in that Community are exmilitary or ex spies and I  know I didn't have that background so I said okay well I'll make him a guy who was betrayed and  he's on the outside then I don't need to know as much about the inner workings these agencies  little things like that and I knew I knew some of the locations and some of the characters

but  I wouldn't call it an outline it was more like about a couple pages of just random notes and then  I started making an outline from that point on so you wanted to make him sort of this Fringe Outcast  character I did for for multiple reasons be a for the reason I said because I thought I thought I  could do a better job with that and also I'm just always drawn to sort of Outsider characters  I mean in Star Wars my favorite character is Han Solo not Luke Skywalker but also I think I I  did p

ut a lot of thought into it I'm a big James Bond fan and when I don't just mean the movies I  mean the the original books by Ian Fleming I've read them all many times and so I tried to think  sort of of what Fleming did because those books were written after World War II when Britain's  influence was kind of fading I this may be really boring but but I think he created a hero that fit  what England wanted at the time they wanted to feel important in the grand scheme of things even  though they'r

e kind of old world was gone at that point and their influence was diminishing so he  created this epitome of an English hero British hero he's sort of middle class he has money but  he's not a snob he's right in that spot he's very patriotic to Queen and Country but he's also very  well-traveled at a time when many people weren't well traveled most people did not get to leave the  country back then so so I kind of looked at what he did and I thought to myself well what what does  that look like

for America now in this time period and to me I think Americans are we're marked by  rebelliousness and we are more Outsiders and our our Patriot or at least my patriotism is more  sort of a little bit cynical we've gone through some things that that makes it hard to just sort  of take all that stuff on face value so I just tried to go through that same process of what  would not just taking like that kind of character and making him American but going through that  thought process process of w

hat would an American hero in that mold be and that was how I came up  with a lot of it how was writing your Escape at that time I mean that was the intent I don't know  if it really was but certainly it allowed me to kind of mentally project myself back I mean by  the time I was finished writing the book like I had said to my editor that I felt like I'd gone  on a very a very long vacation with some very strange friends was I because I mean it was it  was all set in Japan I did a lot of researc

h in addition to because I'd only been in Japan for a  very short amount of time about 10 days it made a big impression on me but it wasn't enough I had to  do research and and also things had changed in the time and I was able to kind of work that into the  story because the character in the story has been in Japan in the past and that's why they want him  for this Mission he has experience there he has connection so he's sort of going back and seeing  how things have changed as well so I kind

of took that experience and put it into to the book and  I mean it other I'd say the Escape was that a it gave me something kind of look forward to and to  occupy myself with and to kind of put because I really wasn't invested in the the work I was doing  at that point this was something I was invested in and it just let me I always say I wanted the  book to be like a sort of mental vacation for people there were two kind of two goals I had for  it one was that it would feel like you would just

seen like an amazing action movie that was that  you would feel like you had taken a trip to Japan and sure enough like if you read the reviews like  a lot of people say like I feel like I've been to Japan or I feel like I got to take a vacation  reading the book and that was really made me feel good because that was definitely one of the goals  the story and of the of the way that I wrote it the types of details I put in the types of little  experiences I tried to sort of share underneath the b

ig kind of action spy story and you said you  took like a twomon lull between jobs you knew that the company was going to rehire you so you had  this schedule planned out which was this like n did you say 9 to5 or yeah not I mean it was  N9 to five but I would I would get up I would I don't remember the exact schedule but I think  I was writing by 9: I think that was sort of my goal I think I would get up go to the gym start  writing right till about lunch and I would try to get 2,000 words that

was my goal and still to this  day when I right that's usually what I tried to do is about 2,000 words a day and that would usually  take me till around lunchtime maybe maybe a little bit more but that's about how long that takes so  and when the job resumed or or you picked up with this new project then how did your schedule change  and how did that feel well that was interesting because that job was a writing job that was  actually one of one of my first professional writing jobs when that jo

b picked up so it w  it was in some ways it was frustrating because I knew I had this book like just waiting that was  like almost done and like if I could just get back to it but on the other hand it was also really  fun because I was writing and I was working with people that I had already known from before that  I really liked and some of them were first-time writers as well so we had this great energy and it  was a really awesome fun time I mean so certainly wasn't bad but yeah there were de

finitely days I  was like ah I wish I could just finish the book now so so it was sort of when that job ended was  kind of bittersweet because it was a really great fun job but I also was excited to get back and  finish the book and and get that taken care of you talked previously about lack of confidence  how much would you mentally beat yourself up over things well honestly when writing that first  book I don't think I beat myself up about it too much because I didn't really have a plan of wha

t  I was going to do with it I just wanted to do it so in that sense I think it was easier because  I just it was more about getting it done to it's writing a novel at that time to me seemed like  such a insurmountable challenge I mean it really seemed like climbing a mountain or something crazy  I was like so even if I could just do it I would have been happy like that was all that was all I  was really sort of thinking about at that time I'd say the confidence more comes from like in Scream  p

lays and TV writing things where you really need to put yourself out there I mean I worked that  that writing job that I talked about that I got really came about because finally after many  years and many opportunities where I could have put myself out there I just started yeah I don't  maybe it was just the right environment it was a very creative kind of young company and everyone  was super friendly and chill maybe I hadn't had the right environment yet but I just started to  say like hey th

e development executive would I remember one time he was like kind of pulling out  his hair and I was like oh what's wrong he's like I forgot we have to shoot this Sizzle tomorrow  and I need a script and I didn't I didn't write it and now I'm screwed and I was like I'll write  it for you and he's like are can you do that I was like well sure I was like I figured how bad  could it be like they needed something and they didn't have it so I figured anything's better  than that so I wrote it up and

he took it home and then he called me actually from the road and  said hey I faxed it I sent your script to the boss and he loved it and he said who wrote it and I  said Andrew did and he was like really surprised so from that point on I started writing all of  their their Sizzle reels on all their pitches and I they actually optioned several shows from  me they didn't get made but they they that was sort of where I started realizing that it doesn't  there's no harm in putting yourself out ther

e I just once I got a little positive feedback it was  easier but I should have been doing that years ago I mean always if you have ideas share them put  them out there even even if people say no it can't hurt you're going to hear a lot of NOS in this  business you might as well get used to it but you never know so do you think it's having confidence  or the rejections don't sting as much and so then you're like oh well oh well keep going probably  a little of both I mean certainly I think as yo

u get older it just starts to get easier because you  just inevitably accumulate more rejections I mean it's like dating like when you're in high school  it's the end of the world if the girl you like won't go to dance with you but when you're 40 like  it's just another okay on to the next one so I ABS I don't know what I don't know what the I don't  know what the answer is but I think it's really important not to let rejection discourage you I  mean I just think that's what it all comes down to

you're going to face rejection finding your own  way to to face that and overcome it and just keep going and keep trying things I think is really  what's going to separate the the winners from the losers can we go back to when you first came to LA  and talk about confidence when you maybe got off the plane or I don't know if you drove out here  well I think when I when I came out to LA I was super confident because we had this movie and like  we thought it was going to be great and we thought w

e were going to be like the next I don't know  like clerks or whatever was the big Indie thing at that time and it didn't go that route but even  even so like we were already on to the sort of the next thing so but I I don't I think really what  it was was I think you it's super important in anything whether it's writing novels screenplays  relationships anything I I always call it or I say you need to be careful you don't give into  a lottery thinking it's like that idea that this one thing is

it and if this one thing doesn't  work out you're screwed that's it it's over or if it does work out then it's going to make  you suddenly you're rich and on Easy Street in my experience that's just not the way it work  I mean sure may maybe it works like that for a very small percentage of people like that's why I  call Lottery thinking but those are the people you tend to hear about but even if you look at really  successful people that write a screenplay that that does really well and launche

s their career or  that sell their first novel even even me and I'm not saying I'm super successful at all but like  even my first novel it's not really I'd written four or five half novels and dozens of short  stories you don't see all the work that's kind of hiding in the shadows you just see that one  thing and so you think if I could just get this one thing I'll have it made and so I think that  one I kind of gave into that with that one script that I thought would get made there's no reason

  why I couldn't have kept shopping that script around or why wasn't I working on another script  to follow that up I mean that went on for probably that whole option period was probably about two  years I certainly could have written other things but I just got very tunnel vision focused on  that one thing happening and it when it didn't happen that just kind of like I said took the wind  out of my sales and I just kind of gave up for a while after that and that was in my opinion a big  mistake

on my part but you didn't go quote unquote back home you stay no because at that point I  was pretty established here in terms of working I had had a job and I had a girlfriend and a life  and so I didn't go back home and I still I don't think I consciously gave up like I still thought  in my head oh I'll work on this and I still had ideas and stuff but I can in terms of the amount  of work I put into it the amount of effort I put into it I could see I really kind of just let it  slide from tha

t point I sort of stopped putting myself out there and that was a mistake do you  think that the fact that you finished the first novel that that gave you confidence that certainly  gave me confidence I think a lot I mean there was a lot of things I mean I mean I finished the  first novel and then I A friend of mine she was a English major she was one of my very good  friends wife she had been an English major she had done some freelance editing and she knew I was  working on it and she said as

a birthday gift I'll do I'll edit it for free for you as an edit so I  had done one edit like where I just sent it off to a service but I knew it still needed a little  more work so I was like okay great like it'll have like two edits and that'll get it into shape and  she read it and she she also had a very favorable reaction she was like this is really good like  I got to the end and I was just like Turning Page to see what happened and so she's still a  friend still not a completely unbiased

opinion but was like a little bit more unbiased than my  girlfriend so each step of the way I'm like okay people seem to like this maybe maybe it's not  bad and then really I ended up self-publishing it through Amazon and I did that because I already  had some projects optioned at that point the the TV shows i' had mentioned and i' had kind of  gone through that process a few times where you're really you're you're sort of dependent on  someone else in essence un unfortunately and I just didn't

want to do it again I mean I knew I  would have to for other feature screenplays and things like that so I said maybe I'll just do this  for me and I'll just put it out and I was fine if if no one buys it or if it doesn't do well that's  fine it's out there I wrote it I put it out there that was really all wanted from it and I put it  out and it did well like not amazing I certainly couldn't quit working off of it at the time but  it did well and more importantly the reviews were really good and

they were even more importantly  than being really good like I said they were exactly what I had hoped I mean I put it out  there saying I want this to be like a mental vacation for someone I want people to feel like  they've gone to Japan I want them to like kind of get an experience outside their normal life and I  want them to feel like they saw like this really awesome action movie and that's what the reviews  were like I mean the pretty much all of my reviews were all of my books the two t

hings that come up  more than anything else are I really feel like I was there and it feels very cinematic and I'm  sure that comes from the fact that I had much more experience at that point with screenplays than I  did with novels and I guess that translated but so when I started getting those reviews I'd say  that probably was the biggest confidence Builder because these are people who not only don't know  me they spent money and bought it and they liked it so I think once I saw that I was li

ke okay like  I have something here and I need to start pursuing this did you promote the book at all once you had  it on Amazon I did there's a whole sort of once I decided I was going to self-publish it I did do  quite a bit of research into how that works and there's a lot of information out there there  are a lot of other self-published authors and so I didn't just go into it blind and I actually  do Consulting with other authors to sort of help them because you really do need a plan I mean 

there are I think when I launched it there were probably like five million books in the Amazon  store now I think there's 10 million so if you just squirt it out there and don't do anything  it's you're probably not going to get if if your if your goal is just to publish a book and say  it's out there that's fine I mean I think that's a worthy goal for many people but if you want to  make money off of it you absolutely have to have sort of a marketing plan so what I did was while  that editor w

hile that second editor was working on it I wrote a novella that was a prequel and so  I started giving away the noela for free to build up a list of reader an email list of readers  and then when the other book was ready then I could email all those readers and say okay  now the sequel is is available that was sort of how I started it so sorry so Tokyo black was the  novel but then you were prepared ing it and then you wrote the Nolla and gave it away for free  yeah how interesting okay so well

that because it went through those two rounds of editing the  the novel and the second round the the the very kind woman who did it for free for me it took her  a while like because she was working a job at the same time so while she was doing that I'd say  that probably took two or three months like for her to finish so while she did that I wrote the  the Nella which I directly designed as a sort of prequel that would lead into it so how many words  is a Nolla that one was about 20,000 and the

n the novel was 8 was about 85,000 interesting okay and  so you gave that away for free and then so you had your website because you have a beautiful website  by the way because you have these cool maps oh than have or one map that I looked at where it  it has like the different books and then it shows which country it corresponds to and it's beautiful  a friend of mine made he's also an author his name is Aiden he made that map he lives in Australia  and I've worked with him on a few projects a

nd he put that together I could never do that okay  but he made it for me but yeah yeah exactly so I would give it away through my website I also when  you're an independent publisher you're really or when you're an independent author you are really  a publisher as well and so I had to learn quite a bit about advertising marketing and I started  to dip my toe in all of that and I ran Facebook ads I did swaps with other authors and genre where  they would they would give away my book to their rea

ders and I would give away their book and we  would share interested readers email addresses and things like that there's there's a if if  you once you start researching none of these things are super like groundbreaking or hard to  find like if you're once you decide you want to go down that path there's a lot of resources out  there there's groups on Facebook there's books about how to do it and these are all sort of the  standard tactics you'll hear people talk about how did who your audience

was when you first started  I don't think I did I mean I mean other than that I mean look I think definitely they there's a big  thing in in writing books about finding your ideal reader and I think that's true to some degree but  I also think people go a little overboard with it because I mean I'm not if I'm writing spy fiction  that's a pretty well tread genre I mean if you like spy fiction you like spy fiction or if you  like science fiction you like science fiction so I never really worried

too much about trying to  pinpoint is my ideal reader a 40-year-old middle manager with two dogs and whatever some people  do and if that works for them great but I just I just thought of it I just tried to write a book  I would like honestly that was really what it came down to we'll pick back up on the business of  writing in just a little bit but we had a comment we received today on our YouTube channel and it  is is the more movies are structured the more movies will feel unoriginal templat

es are fine  if you don't mind to be unoriginal if you're an aspiring script writer and you want to stand out  from the crowd you better come up with something fresh something that doesn't follow quote the  rules and still work as a compelling story remember most stories follow conventions real  life doesn't so if you want to create a compelling story that is fresh and true to life stay away  from the conventions any thoughts well I think when you talk about conventions I think there's  two two

ways you can look at it you can look at it as the the the writer conventions in terms of  the story structure the beats the system if any that you choose to follow but I also think there  are the audiences conventions and in especially in independent publishing you you if you don't  give the audience what they want they are not going going to read your books and I mean and I  think some people might they call it in the in in the novel World they call it writing to Market  if if this particular N

iche wants these things and some genres are much stricter than others if  you're writing romance for example there are very strict rules about there are happy ever after  endings and there are sad endings and you have to tell the reader which one it is because  if they don't like sad endings they are not going to like your book and there are alpha male  romances and nerdy guy romances and Harum romances where there's like one woman and or one guy and  multiple women and then reverse Harum romanc

es where there's one woman and multiple guys and they  they're very particular about what they want and so I think that in for what I write in terms of  spy throwers I don't think it's as regimented as that but certainly if I am selling my book as a  action-packed spy Thriller and there's the action doesn't stand out or the action isn't exemplary  or if I make a lot of factual errors and present things that are just physically impossible if I  get the weapons wrong the the audience is very into

the weapons if if I say I remember I can't I  in my in Tokyo black actually in the first draft I called the magazine which is what holds the  bullets a clip and I got so many comments about how that's the incorrect term ology so I actually  went back and repu you can one of the good things about self-publishing is you can always upload  a new version of the manuscript so I went in and changed all those and put it back up those things  are important to the readers and I don't think it's fair to s

ay that they shouldn't be or to say  that or rather I guess it's fair to say if you're going to ignore those things then do so at know  what you're doing go into it with your eyes open and and have a reason for it not just to break  the convention I mean if if there's a point to it it might work you but if you're just if you're  just breaking what the audience wants because you want to do something else the audience you're I  write for my audience they're the ones buying my books now in terms of

the structure on the writer  side I do a I agree and I disagree I mean I think I this is this sounds very pretentious but I think  of structure as I think of a story as analog and structure as digital in the sense that digital  video or digital audio is sampling reality and to making it sound real to your ear with with  less information there's actually so like a the difference between a VHS and a DVD is there's on a  VHS there's an infinite variation of color between on the spectrum between bl

ue and green whereas on  a DVD at some point it's digital it Clips off and blue stops and green starts and it's just too  small a gap for the human human eye to see you can't perceive it and what I guess what I mean  by that is I think that there's always a sort of inherent structure to a story but whether it  follows these exact beats that people have come up with over the years whether you use save the  cat or the hero's journey I think those are sort of just overlays that we put on top of it

to make  sense of it all and I think that you just need to find what works for you as a writer and that's  that's all the structure you need in my opinion so when you've gone back into edit things is it  just little details that I realized they weren't little to the reader but you weren't actually  going back in no yeah or sometimes they'll catch a typo I mean I do edit my books but even  even in New York Times bestsellers if you really look you'll find typos occasionally so sometimes  readers s

pot a typo and I'll go in and correct that but I never I've never drastically altered  the story or anything like that and so I'm sure as your books have progressed because you have  how many out now sorry well I have two series I also have a science fiction series but in the the  cane series I believe there's eight nine eight or nine and so the feedback that you've received  whether it's on Amazon or people have emailed you that helps shape the next sort of Adventure  that came to some degree I

mean yes or no I don't think I I've never really gotten an email like you  really need the book feel more like this or if I have I haven't necessarily gone on that route but  uh I do communicate with my readers and some of them some some of them are experts in weaponries  there's I have a lot of readers in the military so I'll reach out to them with questions like  hey the latest book which hasn't come out yet is set in Vietnam what are what weapons would  the Vietnamese army use a standard iss

ue that he could maybe get a hold of things like that and  I'll ask for feedback or for information on those kind of areas like help with research the third  book was all set in Sudan and South Sudan and so I asked some readers who had traveled through  Africa for some information there like just things about the area that I couldn't find through  research little things like that and this is all set in current times yes okay for the most part I  mean it's kind of a vague timeline but they're not

they're not like World War II stories or anything  it's meant to be contemporary and the internet so the the internet exists okay for sure does story  structure make a movie better or worse I think it makes a movie better I mean I think that but again  I think that that structure does not necessarily have to be that the inciting incident happens  here and then you've got three beats of fun in games and then you've got this but I think that  a story needs to be working towards something I mean I

do think that we tend to see things in  Beginnings middles and ends and I think as a writer you should sort of have a sense of where  you're going and where you are in the story and the the escalation of things of the drama and  the conflict and obviously I think certain genres it's more important than others I think if you're  doing an action movie it's very important that you want your biggest bangs to be last you need to be  building up to a big finish so I think structure is super important

there if you're doing a more  a small kind of family drama maybe it's a little less important but I think that one way or another  I do think that structure is ultimately a good thing I just think you need to find the structure  that resonates most with you and that's what will work best for you do you think structure is fairly  similar for novel writing as it is for screenplays yes and no it it was it was a really hard thing to  wrap my head around when I started writing novels because my only

experience with structure was  screenplay structures and that question you asked me earlier about Pages I would I would always  think in Pages as well know from a screenplay and it was really hard to figure out like well  how does this novel I could look in a novel but there's no like metric to compare it this book to  this script like how do I figure out like where in the script where this point in the script would be  for this book it's very difficult and I mean I got really obsessive about i

t I mean I even sort of  figured out like okay well my average screenplay is5 words so that translates to there's this many  words on a page of of my screenplay so at 10,000 words in the novel I'm at about page 30 in my  screenplay I really kind of broke it down I don't think that's necessary but I needed to do that so  that I could understand it so I could kind of wrap my head around it now I think I think I've sort of  internalized it to a little bit so I think there's still a beginning middle

and end and I think that  some writers that's all they need and their their structure isn't super rigid like if you read a St  King book he doesn't or he says he doesn't outline and I can feel his his books are very loose I'm  not saying that's obviously Stephen King I mean it works for him but I think the reason why like  I mentioned many many many reviews I see it over and over on my books they say it feels cinematic  or it feels like an action movie and I believe that that's because I intern

alized that screen P  structure and applied it to the book and I think that's why it feels that way so I think it all  depends on what you're going for and sometimes people say that as a negative too they'll say oh  it didn't really feel like a book it felt more like a movie and they mean that as a negative but  I still that still doesn't bother me because I'm like okay clearly they didn't like it it's not  for them but what I'm trying to do is still being conveyed what is a loose outline versus

maybe  a more structured outline well for me when I do an outline I it gets much easier after you've  written a few books because I think you sort of find an internal Rhythm so for me my books tend to  fall around 70 to 990,000 words that's kind of the average range and I tend to have about 30 to 40  chapters like and my chapters tend to be 1,500 to 2,000 words each so having gone through it and now  knowing that I can sort of lay out what it's going to be so I tend to I tend to almost like not

e  carding for a screenplay I usually take an Excel document and I just put 40 rows and I just sort of  write each chapter what I think will happen just a couple sentences I don't go too crazy but I do  know other people that create 30 40 page outlines where they're really going into the nitty-gritty  and the detail of it so again it just depends what works for you so basically when you start a  new novel you will go to that Excel document and you'll do 40 rows and just Loosely put out maybe  no

t even what the title's called but sure yeah the title is usually I mean I usually start with the  title but sometimes I change it I mean sometimes it's just a working sometimes sometimes I know  it's just a working title other times that just I come up with a better idea sure so then just one  or two sentences about what's going to happen yeah and it's not always complete I mean I find if  I know the ending it's usually for the best but sometimes I don't and sometimes I just reach  a point wher

e I'm like what I'll just have to figure it out when I get there and I'll start but  usually I try to know what the ending is going to be so have you ever gotten stuck where you really  couldn't sort of write your way out of it no but I sometimes it's more work than it would have  been there's a so I have a science fiction series called Talon and the fourth book in that I no I  did have an outline it was a loose outline but I there were a couple things I think I should have  nailed down a little

bit so I got about three qus and I was like what I need to go back and change  some stuff so I kind of put that aside and worked on something else for a little while and then I'll  come back to it and kind of not start over but just backtrack a little bit change some things  let the effects Ripple out and then go forward and finish it but in cane it's usually been  pretty straightforward I think I tend to have a clearer idea of of what the ending is going to be  because it's a with Science Fict

ion it's sort of Chu because anything can happen it's very a very  big genre whereas with spy Thrillers it's a little more contained and the outcomes need to be a  little more imaginable like sort of by definition was it your intention to make it a series oh yeah  oh from the very beginning yeah I mean I didn't know if I could really follow through with it  but I mean I always loved those kinds of series characters I mean I was a huge comic book fan  growing up I like that kind of Storytelling s

o certainly in my head I always thought as I was  writing it I had ideas for what the next book would be and I tried to kind of just keep those  compartmentalized because I was like well we'll see let's see if you get through this one but yeah  I intended it to be a series do you have writing rules that you live by H what do you mean can you  elaborate more I mean some people say never be boring I don't know these are these cliche writing  is rewriting there there's so many different ones but on

es that you just well I I don't know if  they are rules I would say that I there maybe they're more well the the rule the Only Rule is  once once I start a project I write every day I mean it's a job to me so like in between books I  might not but once I've started a book it's like okay I'm now writing 2,000 words a day on this  book usually I take off weekends Monday through Friday I just I try to be professional about it  so I'd say I guess that's a rule but in terms of guidelines I try to fol

low I I read a lot of books  before I started one of the things that inspired me to start was I would read books and I think  if you read enough and right enough you come to a point where you start to realize that you're  reading something you're like I could do better than this or I could could do at this I could at  least do something as good as this maybe I could do something better than this and I noticed a lot  of books I felt like the locations didn't really come alive for me I would read

in there just say  oh we're in Syria and it never really felt like it or the author didn't really dive into it in more  detail and that was something I really I wanted to do differently because again going back to Ian  Fleming one of the things I appreciate about his books are he was a journalist and he had an eye  for detail and when you read one of his books you really get the sense that he went to that  place and you feel like you've gone there and it's even stranger with him because he was w

riting  in the 1950s so you almost feel like you've gone back in time to this other place because that  place he's writing about doesn't exist anymore so I always try to make sure that I am bringing  the location to life for the reader like without going overboard I don't want to like pound them  over the head with details but I just want them to feel like they were there you I also I think  from the cinem itic side a thing that I would notice is I would feel like the action in books  sometimes

would kind of fall flat for me like the example I always give is you'd read a thriller and  at the end the the guy's chasing the bad guy up to a roof and he gets the roof and he shoots him and  the guy falls off the roof and that's the end and I was like that's too easy like so to me like if  that's going to be your climax like the guy should run up to the roof and then the other guy jumps  over to the next building and then the hero jumps but he falls through the Skylight now he's running  unde

rneath the bad guy I always try so I call that I always try to escalate the action I want I want  the action to like sort of build and build and so like yes but or does the hero succeed yes but or  does he fail yes and like kind of keep it going to one or two levels beyond what would be obvious  when you start the scene so th I don't think there are rules per se but those are things I always try  to do that's important to me that that's kind of what I like to see in a book so that's what I try 

to put into mind are your books heavy on dialogue or it's mostly action I don't know honestly I'd  say a little both I mean I'd say it's pretty even I mean it's a it's a thriller so I think you're  going to have more action than in a drama but I certainly don't intentionally cut the dialogue but  I do try to write I think my style is naturally a little more tur more more on the sort of Hemingway  or Chandler side than the Fitzgerald side like I think that's just my natural rhythm and do you  spe

ak out the characters do do you oh you don't okay I don't I do know authors who do that and I  also know authors who dictate instead of actually typing they they speak they speak it I've tried to  do that but it's very alien to me I just feel the connection of with my fingers to the keyboard  just feels much more natural but no I don't I don't speak the dialogue yeah I can't imagine  doing that but I know it works for some people when directed the independent movie that I did the  the which I al

so wrote one of the actresses said she it would drive her crazy she said I would  be mouthing the words next to the camera which I wasn't consciously aware of doing I certainly  wasn't trying to do that but she's like stop it I was like what she's like I see your mouth moving  like so maybe maybe maybe as I'm writing I am and I just don't realize it I don't know that should  have been in the player that's really funny by the way what was that film about just quickly it's  a very very strange it

is a it is a comedy about bad Catholic school girls ah okay I'm sure there's  an audience but it's not it's not what you would think I should have I would probably made much  more money if IID made it exactly what you think it would be but it's much more of a it's kind of  a cross between John Waters and John Hughes okay did you go to Catholic school I didn't but my  girlfriend in high school did so I sort of had an exterior view insanity I have a quote here from  you and it says to keep things

fun and interesting I like to gamify the writing process I try to  set up small goals and milestones for myself on the way to the Finish Line recently I hit one of  those milestones and crossed the 30,000 word Mark of a new novel time to celebrate can you tell us  more about how you gamify your writing process so what I would do back then I think what what that  quote was referring to was on my website I would release little tidbits of the novel so I would  sort of I didn't want to talk about it

too much ahead of time because number one things can always  change as you're writing and number two that kind of gave me something to look forward to so when I  would get a few 10,000 words in 20,000 words in I would release little like location reports just  about areas where the book was set and that's simultaneously fun for me and it also helps build  excitement about the book as people are starting to see like oh like he's in China and there's a  a bullet train and now he's visiting this j

ungle in Vietnam and those kinds of things so that's  what that quote was referring to really it was more about communication with my readers and sort  of because they do your readers are a source of inspiration not not not inspiration the sense of  hey do this do that but just knowing they're out there and knowing they're excited and waiting for  this next book that is a huge lift for me anyway so I would kind of par it out so I could kind of  sustain myself I don't it's not it's not as hard fo

r me now that I've done it more times but in  the beginning and I think that quote was around my second or third book and so that's really helped  me keep the enthusiasm up and keep going yeah I would imagine so because I I'm sure we all have  days where we're like oh I don't know if anybody cares and then when you find that someone does  it it does inspire you to want to do okay cool well they care so then maybe I should absolutely  it makes all the difference it's it's huge knowing that someon

e is excited for what you're doing  and someone sent you like a silver wolf with piercing blue eyes yeah I wish I could send you a  picture of it but yeah so the one of the it's on your website I think oh yeah it is it is website  there's a there's a book in the series called cold kill it's it's another Nolla there's kind of the  cane series is kind of split into novelas and full length novels and the full length novels all you  move forward sequentially in time but the novelas jump around they'

re set in different periods like  some are set before the novel some are set when he was still at the CIA and one of them involves  him in Siberia in the tundra being hunted by these Russian Commandos and one of them is called the  Iron Wolf and he has like this wolf necklace and he's a cannibal like so like if he he wants to  basically catch Cain and eat his heart because he believes that that's how you absorb the the  power of your kill oh gosh so this guy in England really loved that book and

he he he was inspired  to create that wolf's head and he was sending me pictures of it as he was doing it I was I was just  floored I was like wow like that's amazing I never thought he would send it to me I mean he's in  England I just thought he was showing me like what he was working on and I thought that was  great and then when he finished he said okay so what's your address and I was like why he's like  I'm going to mail it to you I'm like dude I'm in the US you can't do that like it's fi

ne he's like  no I made it for you and he was very insistent so I gave my address and he shipped it to me and  it's in my office you said you have it like as a reminder yeah I mean it's it's to my left so  if I look at that I know I know there's at least one person out there who is excited enough about  my books to do that so that's a it's it's pretty inspiring it was stunning pictur it's really  beautiful and then the eyes light up there's like a little diodes hidden in it oh I didn't know that

  part wow that's really cool how has your gamifying your writing process changed over time well I  think I mean I don't think it's as important to me because like I said now that I've done it  more I think it's I think now for me the game is more just finishing just going along with the  book and finding exciting new things that maybe I hadn't thought of originally I think where you  divert from your outline is just as important as following it I think it's good to have it but when  better idea

s come you need to feel free to go off and pursue them so I think for me now it's more  about just trying new things and I've I've tried I started a new series actually I just finished the  first book in a brand new series that was written in a different style like the cane books and the  Talon books which are the Sci-Fi books those are all written in third person omniscient but this  new series is first person present tense so it has a kind of film Noir sort of quality to it but  it's in space

it's a science fiction but with a kind of Chandler esque Vibe so just trying just  trying new things just keeping it interesting for myself and I don't think that gamifying is as big  a deal anymore but it's it's still always great to hear from readers and to know that they're  out there and interested you in what I'm doing and how long has writing been your full-time job I  would say writing novels specifically was probably only my full-time job for about 2 years because  the the Indie author w

orld it's very dependent on output to the point where when I say I write  2,000 words a day that actually would probably be considered fairly slow for most independent  authors there are people out there that write 5,000 words a day 10,000 words a day and I just  didn't want to go that I just didn't enjoy doing that when I would work for that long or write that  long I wasn't I don't know the the pain pleasure balance just wasn't there for me so I started  so I've sort of Diversified my income s

treams a little bit so I do receive income from my books  but I also do freelance copywriting on the side sometimes if a cool post soup gig comes up I'll  take that I recently post souped a interactive movie that was really kind of interesting to me  on a technical level and and I also have some screenplays that have been optioned and that are  being shopped around so I mean I I sort of I for me it worked best to kind of diversify what  I was doing I think I mentioned this before but when you ar

e a full-time author and that is  your only income it is a lot of pressure and I found that although it was really cool and really  exciting when things were going well when things weren't going well it was it was again easy to get  discouraged if you're not careful and I just found that that pressure I didn't enjoy writing under  those conditions I actually enjoy writing more now because it's not the only thing I'm depending  on did you think that would be the case I didn't I was really excited

to go full-time with it and  I was kind of surprised when I realized that it it it wasn't the best fit for me but by the same  token I don't think I would ever I would not I don't I have a hard time imagining myself in sort  of a typical N9 to-5 corporate job I don't think I could go back to that most of the things I  do I'm very lucky that they do still involve some element of creativity I've also done like  I said I do Consulting with other authors and I've done some creative Consulting on sc

reenplays  so I still get to sort of exercise those muscles but it just keeps it fresh and it keeps like too  much pressure from going on the writing side and when there is that pressure do you find you're  less creative or you're more just stressed out and it's yeah I don't think I was less creative  because the work I did during that time I still am happy with but it just wasn't as much fun it was  it was just harder on me to do it and also it's it's harder you start to develop I'm sure you've

  heard this from other people but it's very easy to develop like an impostor syndrome where and  and I find this even more so with novels where you're working on it for so long and you're all  alone and nobody sees it and you start to wonder like well maybe I just got lucky the first time  you or maybe I just got lucky the first two times like my fiance jokes that like when I finish every  book I always say this is my worst book ever and she's like you say that about all your books but  you jus

t start to like Wonder it's just hard to kind of keep things in perspective I found for  me so I would just be much more hypercritical on myself in in a non-constructive way when when all  I was doing was writing the books and that was it I would be super super super critical and hard on  myself that's interesting so it sounds like you said there was sort of a confidence issue when you  first got here and then you receive so many NOS or you just got to a point where it didn't bother you  as much

and then it sounds like there's this other point where when you start and that's that's  very interesting to me there is but I mean I definitely think that now having gone through all  that I mentally I know like you're just psyching yourself out that's not true of course you've  written eight books like you you have all of them are rated very highly so I can sort of talk myself  off the ledge but I definitely believe that once you do achieve that's sort of what I was saying  like with the whol

e Lottery thinking idea that oh when I do this one thing like I've got it made  it's not really at least that's not the way it felt for me because even that one even the after  the second book which was enormously successful and really allowed me to do whatever I wanted for  a couple years after that but I still was worried and I would write I don't know if this is any good  like I mean it's I think it's just it's just sort of in the back this voice in the back of your  head you just need to lea

rn to ignore it do the work and then assess if it's good or bad because  until you're finished it's not good or bad it's nothing until it's done and even then you can go  back and edit it and prove it and work it nothing comes out like perfect it's it's you just have  to do the work and Trust in the work and then go back and try to make it the best it can be so  it's not just if I get this many downloads or this many purchases I'm home free then there's this  new pressure not for me I mean I can

only speak for myself and some people may be less critical  of themselves some people I think have different goals out of publishing I mean I do think there  are authors out there that probably just look at it as a business I mean there are authors who who  put out like a book a week or hire ghost writers and I'm not criticizing their practices like it's  almost like I said when you're an author you're also a publisher when you're an independent author  you're a publisher and I think some peopl

e sort of gravitate more to that publishing side where it's  a business and a product and they have an assembly line that they and they may or may not care very  much about the individual Products that come out I don't know but for me I'm very invested in the  books I mean like I said I want people to feel like they're having this experience like they're  traveling to this location and I I've drawn on a lot of my own travels and I always feel this  sort of pressure to capture the place in a fair

and believable light and so for me I just found  that there was a lot a lot of impostor syndrome like after even after the first two books which  were really successful I would always be like this isn't good enough I don't know if I can do  it again sure I did it two times three times four times but can I do it again it that was always  kind of hovering over me did people encourage you or discourage you from putting the Nolla out  for free oh honestly I don't think I really talk to anyone about

it I had like I said I had sort of  done research on what other authors had done and I had seen that that had worked for people and so  I just did it but nobody I don't I really didn't tell people a lot about what my sort of long-term  plan was at that point I kind of kept my cards close to my chest in fact I remember at the time  the that company that I had done some writing for when they found out I was publishing books they  like oh they must be horror books we love to see them was like oh N

o actually they're spy stuff  like cuz the writing I'd done from for them was a horror based thing and they knew I was a big  horror fan so they were really surprised that I had written something totally different so yeah  I I don't didn't don't think people really chimed in on that one way or the other so once the the  actual novel came out you were able to leave your job yeah I mean it sort of worked out I didn't I  was a freelance post soup at that point so really I just stopped looking for g

igs was what I did and  I just focused on the next next books and I did that for about two years where that was the only  income I had coming in but like I said after two years I did start to the I just felt happier when  I had other things I still do a lot of writing and I still put out books regularly but I didn't want  to have to put out four five six books a year like I wasn't happy trying to do that and I did try the  science fiction series I wrote very quickly I put out three books in one

year and I like those books  but after that experience I was like no I want to slow it down a little bit so have you ever done  a book signing or gone to read no because I mean I do sell hard copies but mostly it's a eBook  the and when you're when you're an independent author I'd say ebooks are going to be probably  90% of your sales so Kindles and Kindle yeah I had some books that were wide some books that  were exclusive to Amazon it just depends but that was most of the money also audiobooks

are are  starting to become bigger but still I find most of my Revenue comes from ebooks so did you read  for the audio book no no I didn't I don't like my voice like I said so I no but also I think to me  that's a skill they're are professional narrators like that's what they do sure so I wanted to work  with someone like that that that would really elevate it had you ever really thought of what the  voice the actual voice of the character was I did I mean I not in the sense of I didn't put a

lot  of thought into it but I certainly hear him in my head I know what I think he sounds like so I would  listen to narrators the first audio books actually weren't independently produced they were with a  company licensed them from me so they had final say on who narrated it but they did they sent me  candidates and I chimed in like oh I like this guy I don't like this guy interesting and so it's  an American accent or British okay he's American wow and where did he grow up Kane yeah it's it's

  a mystery it's a mystery okay so we know nothing yeah he's sort of a cipher very little of his past  has been revealed and in fact there's sort of a running joke in the books that whenever someone  is about to mention his military record it says that he's a veteran but it never said like where  he served in what branch he served and whenever someone's about to say it like someone else always  cuts them off or someone says oh that's classified and so readers will always sort of offer their  the

ories like oh he must have been a Navy SEAL or he must have been a marine Force Recon but it's  never been said like what he was so does he give away any tells with food that he might like or  a phrase I tried to it was the the intention of the character was that he'd be somewhat of a  a blank slate I mean he's very I wanted there to be sort of an element of mystery almost like  he's almost like a force of nature when he gets involved in something so I mean he's he certainly  has traits he's ver

y he's sort of cynical he's someone who's been betrayed and he's someone who  has an intense self-loathing because he he looks back on the things he did in in the CIA and the  army with regret because he's seen now that not everything was what he believed that it was so  he is very distrustful of people that kind of elevate themselves morally above others he's very  he's kind of bitter and cynical although gradually through the books that sort of changes he starts  to kind of go in this Redempti

ve Arc and he's he's he's someone who's lived all around the world so  he's very open in terms of like what he'll eat I mean the books are set all different places  and I always try to I kind of try to present him as someone that can sort of fit in almost  anywhere he drinks whiskey for the most part and he doesn't like very sweet things those are those  are about the only two things I can think of that are consistent is there a part of you that Wishes  the books would do better on Amazon so tha

t you wouldn't have to work anymore well I mean like I  said the work that I do is is work I enjoy so it's still creative kind of stuff so I mean I don't  of course I wish the books could be number one New York Times bestsellers I mean why not like  of course I would always want them no matter how successful they are I think I would want them  to be more successful and they are nowhere near that level of success for sure but no I don't  think that I would want to only write books I mean I enjoy

it it's a big part of what I do but  I would also want I mean honestly I think what I would really like would be the freedom to sort  of slow things down and write fewer books that I could also write some screenplays and maybe some  TV pitches and maybe do do the author consulting which I really like I like helping first-time  authors and kind of showing them the ropes and what I did and kind of getting them started on  the right path because there's a lot of scams out there and like predatory b

usinesses that kind  of prey on firsttime authors and screenwriters I mean I'm sure you guys have seen that kind of  stuff so I I when I do consult with authors it's very inexpensive and I'm like don't spend money  on this like don't give anyone $10,000 to publish your book don't do that kind of steering them away  from the obvious scams so I enjoy doing all that so I don't want to necessarily give that stuff  up but sure I mean who doesn't want more success right and when you work with these au

thors they  are ones that have have a finished sometimes they do sometimes they're in the middle sometimes they  haven't finished yet sometimes they've written sever books but they just haven't been able to  kind of achieve success and they're not sure like what they should be doing differently it's kind  of all over the map how can one word in a story be so powerful can make or break a sentence wow  I don't know about one word but I do think that word choice obviously can really color how a sce

ne  flows and this probably isn't what you're getting at but this this is an example of something that  really surprised me I always feel like most of my leaps in writing quality come from writing  something else so for example many many long time ago I was I had a a I was writing a screenplay  and I had a book that I was reading about writing novels because I was always trying to write a  novel sort of in the background of everything and I don't even think this was a particularly  good book abo

ut writing novels but it had one tip that I think is gold like this is a million dooll  tip so for anyone who's watching this I guarantee you this will improve your writing and it's the  tip was when you're finished with a manuscript do a word search for ly because most adverbs end in  ly and adverbs are usually imprecise and are not the best word for what you're trying to convey  and I was like wow like that really stood out to me and so I took my script that I was working  on this I'll try it

on my script and I tried it on my script and sure enough when I finished I was  like this is better like it really made it better so I mean I think I think a lot of times when  you're writing your first draft you're kind of just trying to get it down but if you can go back  and say what was I really trying to say there and if you're using words like he walked slowly to the  door like well is that really what you mean or do you mean he stalked towards the door or he crept  towards the door or he

sneaked towards the door and if if I don't think always that applies but  a lot of times I think you'll find that you were really trying to say something else a little more  specific and by getting rid of that adverb and finding the the right word it's going to make the  scene pop in the reader's head it makes it much more visual because you can Envision someone  sneaking but if you envision someone walking slowly you might not see the same thing and I  think that really helped my writing that w

as just one of those little like aha moments that I always  remember even though it was like probably 20 years ago what's the male version of the Mary Sue oh  there's a name for that that's what I thought I can't remember what they call it but there is  a male name for it yeah the character who's just perfect like who never fails and never I think  really what I don't even think it's the fact that they're perfect I think it's that they never  have to struggle I think that's what people don't lik

e we don't want and that's I think why it goes  back to what I said before about escalating action we don't want our heroes to resolve things easily  we want them to struggle we want them to fight we want we want us we want to show the strength that  we wish we had or that we believe that we have that and and when things just come easy that's  not a interesting story right so with your novels it seems like from the get-go you're establishing  that this character is not on Mary Sue any no yeah Ka

ne I mean I guess it depends on of course he's  the hero so of course he tends to win but I always put him through the ringer like I mean he gets  hurt he gets beat up he gets cut and shot and by the end he he could a person who went through all  that really win at the end maybe not that's where I think fiction comes in and we're we're will  suspend our disbelief when I was growing up the two two of the big action heroes in the box office  were jeanclaude vanam and Steven Sagal and I always lik

Jean Cloud vanam better because Steven  Sagal never took a hit in his movies he just went through and wiped the floor with everybody no one  touched him but vanam would always get beat up or he's like crucified on a pole or something and  at the end he rises up and he wins like I to me that's the story I want to see that's great I like  that that's pretty funny that's true you're right it just pushes him out of the way and never gets  dirty yeah he never gets he never gets touched like his hair

is always perfect yeah exactly cuz  that is the marsh he does a keto which is all about redirecting attacks but I for me as a hero  I never I just couldn't I didn't like him bothered me what's your work schedule like when you're  writing well like I said I I'm usually I used to write start writing a little earlier I think I  think I used to start writing around 8 or 8:30 now I usually start by 9:30 is what I try to do but  I still try to keep it like kind of half business hours I mean so basical

ly I try to start when I  would start a normal job and i' write till about lunch somewhere around there and then after lunch  I may still write but it'll be other things so so the book I'm working on will be the first thing  that I tackle and I'll write that till about lunch and then after lunch if I have other things I'm  working on like a screenplay or copy or even stuff from my own business like advertising or email  newsletters things like that that's when I'll I'll work on the other stuff i

n the afternoon and  you take weekends off yes is that something you've ever been tempted to say ah why don't I do all the  time but my fiance gets very unhappy when I when I do that sometimes like if I'm almost about to  finish I'll be like look baby I just got to finish this book and she understands but for the most  part I try to devote the weekends to other things and I think it's good to let your brain recharge  before you dive back in have you noticed that then when you're at the point whe

re you have to finish  and it's seven days a week that you feel like some of your creativity is dwindling not really because  usually when I get to the end you get you get this big kind of burst of excitement momentum you're  like oh my God I'm done it's almost done like I can just see the ending one more chapter so  usually that's when I will work on weekends and that kind of carries me through certainly I think  if I tried to do that all throughout the book absolutely I would get burned out I

think it's  good to have breaks and to let your brain kind of think ahead but when I do do it it's usually very  kind of exciting it's like the the final stretch you have you always loved every character you've  created well I mean I don't love that's a tricky one I don't I you have to create characters that  you you have to understand your characters I don't think you have to love them in the sense that some  of the characters you write will not be deserving of love I mean I've written some hor

rific villains  but I always try to give the villain a reason for what they're doing most of my villains tend to  have sort of tragic backstories because I think that I just think in the real world that's the  way that's the way I see the world I see suffering leads to more suffering everyone kind of has their  own worldview and their own take on villains and I don't think there's anything wrong with a villain  just being sort of bad inherently bad but I do think that I just find it more interes

ting if  there's a little bit of a reason why they see the world the way they do so I don't know that  those characters I love them but I understand them how do you stay invested in a story if your  character is unlikable or there's parts of them that's unlikable well I think if parts of  them are unlikable that's fine I mean there's parts of parts of everyone is unlikable right  nobody's perfect and at a story is about a person struggling to overcome something right so their  flaws can be just

as important to that process as their strengths in fact probably more so because  if they're put into something that's playing perfectly to their strengths and it's probably  too easy for them it's their flaws that make it interesting so I think the more you incorporate  those flaws and their weaknesses or a big a big kind of ongoing thing in the cane stories is one  of his problems is he can't trust anybody and so sometimes that actually causes him to make the  wrong decision because he's so bi

tter and so cynical if he just trusted his Agency contact  things would go better but he can't because of what's happened to him in the past that makes it  more interesting and more dramatic and I think that makes it also easier to stay invested I think  it would be harder to stay invested in a story where the hero is just sort of infallible and  you're always playing to their strengths and they win every fight and overcome every that I would  have a really hard time staying interested in in wri

ting as well as reading can you give me some  examples of how he shows some of his weaknesses I know you said sometimes he doesn't trust his  Agency contact well for instance so in the latest book he he's kind of come in from the cold and now  he is working with the CIA again because there's there's someone that he actually does trust is  now in a position of power and they've he's gone through this whole process in the other books  and now he's he's working for the CIA again so they send him in

to to Vietnam to find this missing  contact and they have a someone to they say we'll we've got a contact for you to to meet with to  get some Intel from and they'll set you up with everything they need but he refuses to deal with  that person because he's like no I trust you but I don't trust everyone else working for the CIA  he's like I'll go through my own contacts and so he goes to sort of the Shady character that he  knows but that character ends up betraying him because they're a scumbag

like and so he kind of  realizes if I had just listened and trusted this person like it it would have gone way better now  he's jeopardized the mission because he couldn't put his trust in his superiors and so he has to  kind of he's kind of working under the weight of that knowledge that wow I almost screwed  this all up so that's sort of that's the most recent example I can think of and why doesn't  he trust actual people within the agency but he trusts some Fringe character because he really 

shouldn't I mean it's a mistake but he because he has a history of being betrayed by people within  the CIA and because he doesn't he sees the work he did with the CIA in the past as not really  being Noble he realizes he was kind of used and the things that he did weren't really making the  world a better place in his opinion so he just has this kind of wall of anger and guilt and really  kind of self-loathing in essence I mean it's I think I think it's more about him being angry  at himself f

or being fooled and that that lead when you're angry at yourself you don't make the  best decisions and I think that's a case where I intentionally had him make a bad decision I mean  he he later regrets it and realizes that wasn't the smart thing to do how many Thomas Kane books  have you written three novels and four novellas two of those noas I co-wrote actually with another  author and there's a fourth book that has not been published yet that's with an agent who you I think  you asked about

this before but he's consider he's shopping it around we're considering maybe signing  with a publisher and seeing what that might mean and what what might be out there in that Avenue  so what is that four or four so about eight eight Thomas can books and why haven't you tired of  this character yet I don't know I mean I I think I think part of it I think is because I did keep his  past mysterious so there's always something else to reveal like I think if I had one of the things  I wanted to av

oid was that I saw in a lot of Thrillers what I call like the resume where there  be like oh we're going to bring in this guy and he's ex Special Forces and he served five years in  Libya and they kind of go down is the whole thing and to me that kind of takes the mysticism out  takes something away from it cuz I sort of feel like well if the only thing that's special about  him is that he's a Navy SEAL who did these things than any Navy SEAL who did those things is the  same it's sort of so I w

anted to kind of avoid filling in like every little detail and and and  by doing that I think it allows me to kind of find new angles and new things that I find interesting  about him because there is a a big black space in the background so his his background is is a  mystery all we know is that he was Betrayed at at a certain point in his life but is he a  mystery to himself or or you don't go that far into his thought well I I try to go a little bit  into his thoughts but not too much because

I feel like in fact I originally when I first conceived  the series one thing I did change was I originally was going to write it first person where you would  hear his thoughts and I realized I was like well if I do that then I feel like I'm giving too much  away because you're always going to know what he's thinking so a lot of time so I switched it to  third person and a lot of times when someone asks him a direct really probing question I'll have him  just like look at the person and not an

swer and I try to let the reader kind of project what they  think the answer might be onto it I so I really do make a concerted effort to as much without  without sacrificing character and making him someone believable and someone you could invest  yourself in i' make a concerted effort to keep as much of him in the dark as possible so that cuz  I think that that allows the reader to inject a little of themselves and their opinions and their  beliefs into his character why is he doing this sort

of like as an example in that first the first  book Tokyo black he's he is sort of driven to help this girl and he's it's never really explained  why he sees a picture of her and he just kind of from the very beginning is inclined to help  this girl and I remember the editor kept saying I don't understand like why does he want to help  this girl so much why does he want help this girl so much and to Me Maybe This was wrong but I just  felt like if I went and spelled it out that would sort of che

apen it I was like I don't know he  just feels this compulsion but by leaving it open that's what I made the Nela about so in the  Nela that La that I gave away for free it sort of outlined this experience and I don't directly  connect the dots but you could read the and say oh well maybe that's why he might be inclined  to help this person cuz here in this story he didn't help a person in a similar predicament  and this is what happened so you could make that connection or not so that's sort of

the  way I try to handle that when you write a spy Thriller does the protagonist really change It's  Tricky I don't think the protagonist has to change per say but I do think some I think there's two  ways you can go and I've done both I think they can change like in one area or in some area or  the world around them can change I think like a character like James Bond for example changes  very little throughout the books but the world around him changes he stops things from happening  or he I m

ean really most heroic fiction is about reasserting the status quo right like something  is gone arai and it's up to the a to set things right and I think that's perfectly fine I mean  there's a million books and movies that does Indiana Jones really change between those movies  I don't think he does but they're perfectly entertaining so I don't think it's a requirement  but I do think when you're writing it's certainly more interesting on the writer side and I think  this might kind of go down

to like what you're saying about the reader's expectation and the  writer's expectation I don't think the reader expects your hero to change necessarily book to  book but as a writer I think it's more fun if you can sort of inject a little bit of change  and so like that's why over the course of the first three books like I mentioned in the fourth  book He's back to working with the CIA and the the course of those first three books is sort of  about that change about him slowly kind of coming in

from the cold and learning how to trust again  and kind of rebuilding his life in essence and to coming in from the cold so from being sort of  this outlier this like Fringe character and now being in this structured environment where he's  totally watched yeah probably has that and also I think sort of believing in himself believing  that he can actually make a difference and do something good because he starts off very bitter  and angry at himself like I said for the things he's done in the p

ast and there's a part of him  that honestly believes like if I get involved with these people I'm just going to make it worse  for them like just nothing good comes from me I mean and so I think he's gradually kind of lifting  himself out of that I mean he sort of starts out a little bit of kind of self-pity I me he's he's  living off the grid he's kind of operating as a petty criminal and just kind of surviving and so  there's sort of this theme in the first book about surviving versus living

he's not really living  he's just surviving so little things like that but I but they're not drastic changes I mean he's  certainly consistent throughout the four books and I that to me that's enough to keep it interesting  for me and I don't think the readers really want him to suddenly wake up and be a totally different  person or have a huge come to Jesus kind of thing I don't think that's what readers of that genre  are looking for okay true or false question here all major characters have s

trong motives and that  their own Journeys aren't always in alignment with any other character all right Let's do let's  break that up into two so all major characters have strong motives I mean I don't I don't I'd  feel uncomfortable saying all anything I mean like I said I don't think there's rules and I'm  sure there's great stories that might not pop into my head where they don't have strong motives  maybe like Dazed and Confused that's a great movie I don't know I'd have to see it again but

I don't  know if I'd say they have really strong motives I think it's on that movie is almost about them sort  of finding a motive like by the time they get to the end but I think that certainly most characters  tend to and and I think it's probably easier to construct a compelling story around around someone  that has a really strong motive versus someone who doesn't like for example Close Encounters of the  Third Kind I mean that guy is obsessed like his entire life revolves around figuring o

ut like  what happened and getting to this point and he can't even explain why but he's willing to give  up his family and his job and everything like that that I think it's I think it's easier to  construct that kind of story than someone who's just kind of ambling along and then the second  part is that their own Journeys aren't always in alignment with any other character sure I'd say  that's true I mean because that's flexible right it says aren't always so maybe they are but they  certainly

don't have to be how do you keep track of your characters and all of their motives I  don't know I don't really have a hard time with it I know some people make charts like Excel sheets  like if you read a lot of books on outlining say to for each scene you always want to write down  like the main character and what their goals are for the scene I find for whatever reason that just  isn't an issue for me like I tend to know what the character's motives are I just it's maybe that's  I don't know

maybe that's just how I kind of come up with the scenes from in the first place but  I've never really had a problem with that like it's just sort of in my head how important is  that first opening page I think it's certainly important I think people I don't know I mean I  guess it depends on your style I mean I think some people really want that amazing sentence that  just hooks you I I'll be honest I don't tend to write that way I don't tend to have that usually  I think my openings are more

kind of setting a place and kind of drawing you in I think one way  or the other you need to interest a reader but I think there's lots of different ways of doing that  so I think again you just have to find what works for you but I think if you read my books I don't  think you you would like read the first sense of any of them and be like that's an amazing first  sense I think that just isn't the isn't my style okay so it's not it was the best of times the wor  of time it was not I know uh who

is it Lee Child says that he like spends days like he'll rework  the first sentence over and over and over to to get it to be just right I don't know I for me it's  more about the mood I'm establishing in that first page than like getting that sense that really pops  but everyone's different and you have to find what stylistic touches work for you how do you keep an  underlying sense of danger and tension in every scene I think a lot of that is part of the setting  understanding understanding th

e location lets you kind of describe it in a mysterious dangerous  way I think if you if you have a feeling for the location where is it a cedy area is it a high  crime area is it a rich wealthy area like what what kind of things are either likely to happen  to you there or what might be surprising to happen to you there depending on the direction you want  the scene to go but I think for me a lot of that comes down to knowing the location and really  getting a feel for it I know that might soun

d weird because it it's not directly related but  that's usually what I go to first is like what is the mood of this area and then how can I sort of  color that mood to be a little bit more dangerous so let's say someone how would you said that this  character Thomas Kane is a chameleon in some sense he can really blend in so how is he operating when  walking through a bad part of town whereas he's walking through a business center where there's  professionals with nice leather shoes most of the

stories actually tend to take place in more  kind of cier locations so I think he's probably more at home in more dangerous areas that I mean  he there have been usually if he's in an area that's more upscale he just kind of acts like a  tourist he acts like kind of a clueless tourist because he knows that's the most likely scenario  for why someone like him might be there but I don't know in terms of making the audience feel  like something can happen I feel like you sort of need to have a sen

se of the local there's a the  book three that set in Sudan that's a war torn region and so I I really tried to kind of play  up the the condition of the build buildings and there's armed soldiers walking around everywhere  and everyone's kind of on edge and you see like smoke rising from a building somewhere because  it was bombed the previous day like those kinds of details I think are what make the reader start  to think like oh wow Anything could happen here like who knows like so I think I

to me it kind of  comes down to the location and and communicating that to the reader it's interesting that you  said that he would pretend he was a tourist and I had heard that from a journalist on a panel  she said that when she would go into certain War torn countries she would very much put on like  a a touristy Garb and because she was less of a threat right and and and so people overlooked  her you which just very interesting yeah I mean if you're if you're a white guy walking around  Chin

a like there really only a few things that are plausible why you would be there so I see  so so he kind of has a camera and and I know he doesn't go that far but he just that just tends  to be kind of the rale he just kind of pretends he might he might pretend he doesn't understand  the language even if he does or he might ask for in one scene he asks someone for directions right  before he attacks them because he's just trying to play off that he's like a lost tourist things  like that we imagi

ne there's many many times you've put Thomas Kane in some impossible position  where it seemed like he wasn't going to get out is there an example that you can use where you backed  yourself into a corner and how did you get out of it so you're writing and you're like wait a minute  how am I getting out of this scene I don't have a plan for it sure actually in the very first book  the the climax takes place on a a thing called Tokyo Sky Tree actually when I started writing it  took place on some

thing called Tokyo Tower but in the years that it took to finish the book Tokyo  Tower became no longer the tallest structure in Japan that when I started it was when I finished  it was this thing called Tokyo Sky Tree so I moved it because I thought it would be more exciting to  be the tallest building in Japan so Tokyo Sky Tree is this big big tower I think it's about a half  a mile tall like a little observation deck at the top and I knew I wanted to have a scene with  Kane fighting people at

the top of this Tower and there's like a drone zooming around them and all  this stuff going on for the outline that's about as much detail as I would do but when I started  writing it I was like well okay at some point he's going to be hanging off the tower and then what  like what do I do like obviously he can't fall but how do I make it interesting that he doesn't fall  like what does he do does he just pull himself back up or like what makes the bad guy go away or  like and so I was sort of

stuck I wasn't really sure what to do but it for me the answer just  came down to research I just kept researching it was really hard to find accurate blueprints or  pictures of the Tower I don't know why but so I just had to keep at it most things when I research  I can usually find what I'm looking for pretty quickly but for whatever reason it just I just  had a hard time finding detailed enough pictures where I could sort of plot out the scene in my  head finally I found this video of people

washing the windows at the top of the tower and they have  these little carts that like lower down and then move along on tracks and I was like that's it it  and so in the scene I had him spot one of these carts that's like hanging half up and he like is  able to swing himself into the cart and then he has to like climb the wire and jump onto there's  this big like glass tube that wraps around the top of the tower where it's like an up where you  can look 360 from this observation deck so we ha

d to like jump onto this tube and fight the guy on  top of this glass tube like way above the the city and so the the research just just not giving up on  the research is really what allowed me to kind of finish that scene in a satisfying way if you can't  find what you're looking for with the research at what point do you move on do you give yourself  a time limit or is that part of the fun I mean I certainly wouldn't I wouldn't stay on it for  forever I mean I do think you have to keep things

moving and so if you're not finding what you need  I think you I at some point you either change the scene like you go back or you just come up with  something else I mean I think really it all comes down to what's satisfying for you right because  that SC and I just described I'm sure you could give that to 10 other writers and they'd come  up with 10 other ways to make that interesting there's all kinds of things you could do but  it nothing was clicking for me so I think at a certain point if

you don't find the answer then  yeah you either need to just try a different tact or maybe go back okay well maybe he doesn't fall  off maybe he throws the guy off and then realizes the guy has something he needs and he has to  get him back or I don't know you just try to find what would be interesting and work from there  I do think actually I think a lot of people over research and I love research and it's important  but I think that a lot of people use research as kind of an excuse to not ge

t started and I think  that that's a danger actually I always try to I always feel like you should start writing when  write when you feel you're not quite ready I think that's the time to start because I think if you  keep researching and researching and researching you're just kind of you're holding off on the  real work because that's not the real work and also I've found that I I think you'd be surprised  what you can get away with because if there's something you don't know you just don't p

oint the  metaphoric or the literal camera at it I mean the nelo took place in Thailand and I needed a scene  by a river and I was kind of driving myself crazy trying to find like where would a river be in this  region and I couldn't find anything and finally I just said why am I going through all this trouble  I just said yeah I just cut I just started the new chapter and he's by a river I don't say  exactly where it is no one has ever like said well where could there be a river in this provinc

e  of Thailand if you only had this many out I think that people overdo it on that kind of stuff so do  do what you need to kind of get yourself invested and interested and I think you can do a lot as you  go from that point on the internet's always there do you limit yourself though do you turn like the  Wi-Fi off it's not a no it's not like a literal time I just kind of have a sense now from having  done it like you're you're putting it off now you're putting it off it's like you're putting of

f  the work you're you're researching too much you got to just get going I just kind of have a sense  in my head of when it's time to start writing but do you turn off your email and different text  message not really sometime every now and then I will but most of the time I I'm able to just  ignore it you know I'll put my phone in the other room maybe what are the best ways to build plot  twists I think you just have to find what's Oran IC to your story I do think you need to surprise  the read

er I do try to sometimes when I think of a scene I'll try to think okay this is the way  the scene would go but what if we went this way instead like I haven't seen that but I also think  you need to be really honest with yourself when you're doing that like does this work better like  because just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it works and I do I would rather be effective  than novel and in my opinion I mean sure it's good I do try to create new things and I do try to go  in unexpect

ed directions but if you're going in a Direction that's not satisfying I think you're  sort of you're writing for yourself and not for your readers at that point I mean as an example I  wrote a a short story once about a a guy who is a werewolf and every time the full moon comes out  he chains himself up in the basement and he like tranquilizes himself so that he won't hurt any one  and then he has this whole process of how he gets out of it the next day and then one day he does  all this but so

meone is still like mauled in the town he's in and so it's sort he's sort of trying  to figure out well how could this have happened I know I was chained up I know I did everything  and he's like trying to figure out what's going on and when you get to the end of the story you  find out there's another werewolf that came to town and to me I thought that was really cool but  I remember one of my friends read it and was like oh I was kind of disappointed because I really was  I wanted to see how h

e figured out how to get out like I thought that was going to be the whole  thing that like maybe the wolf side of him is becoming smarter something like that along those  lines and I had never even thought about that but I it just made me think that for him he found  that story unsatisfying and I think it's better to satisfy the reader when you can than just be  different just for the sake of being different you said you'd rather be effective than be novel  yeah I mean I'd rather the scene work

s and that the reader enjoys it and feels something from it  than to be different just for the sake of being different I mean you can it's and sometimes it  can be easy to be different in a very cheap way I mean if you if you're writing a a spy thrower  and you get to the end and the hero just fails like sure that's different but it's probably  not very satisfying to the reader unless you make that failure mean something or matter or  lead to something else that's interesting but if it's just li

ke oh you thought this would  happen and instead this happens but there's it's disconnected from from everything else or  it's not satisfying to the reader I think that that's being novel but you're not being effective  you're not you're not satisfying the reader you're not presenting a a compelling story end every  chapter on a cliffhanger or surprise ending I if you can without it being forced I always try  to I think your goal with the end of the chapter is to make the reader read the next ch

apter  right so Cliffhanger is a really good way to do that but it's not the only way I mean I think  even if you've sort of resolved the drama of that scene you can sort of give a hint that yeah  he got through this but there's more coming or things aren't as safe as they seem you just I  think you always just try to leave with a little bit of I don't know what to call it not really a  cliffhanger per se but just a a sense of danger kind of like what you were saying before like that  kind of mo

od that yeah he survived this but he's certainly not safe there's you're the story is  still moving moving would you put like a surprise Revelation just something that keeps people a  little bit on their edge of their seat but curious I think actually one of my editors said what I  tend to do and they they were they like this like oh I like the way you end chapters is I usually  just try to find something sort of symbolic in the language that might be a little Sinister  like if if they've just g

otten through a big red car chase and it's Sunset I might say the sun  dripped red blood across the sky as they vanished into the horizon or something like that where it's  it's not really literally implying anything but it just gives you the sort of mood of danger and  I remember an editor had said oh I really like the way you end your chapters with these kind  of visual cues of of something sinister and how do you start the chapter each chapter varies  yeah I mean I just think I think you you

want to try to get in late and get out right at the right  time I mean I try not to spend too much time with Exposition I mean you need a little but I try to  do the bare minimum and I just try to start I mean it sounds kind of silly to say but I just try to  start where it's most interesting I mean if if if two people are in an argument I don't necessarily  need to see what led up to that argument I just want to start with the argument if they're arguing  about whether they should send someone

into this territory to get an agent out I don't need to see  the girl walk up go in the elevator walk into the office and sit down for the briefing and then get  into the argument I just want to start with the argument should we go in and help this guy or not  that's the point of the scene so I think that kind of comes down to knowing what the point of the  chapter is I mean I do think that every chapter should have a reason for being there and when I  say chapter it's kind of interchangeable to

me with scene I tend to write one scene per chapter  but not everybody does so each scene needs to have a reason if the reason is exposition and sometimes  that's necessary I think you need to make it as short as possible as quick as possible like give  them what they need to know and move on is that something you've perfected over the years because  in the beginning we just want to sit down and just pour all of this out I don't know if I'd say I  perfected it I mean I think I was always aware

of it because like I said I'd written screenplays  and things beforehand and I do think screenplays kind of teach you to be very economical with your  language because you're so constrained by time so I don't think I necessarily had a huge problem  with it but I do I will say that writing that first book I definitely would be more inclined to  add things because I'm like oh man I don't know if I can make it to 880,000 words or 100,000 words  whatever in my head it was going to be so I'm like all

right I'll talk about this and I would sort of  go off on tangents I I think through editing most of the excess there was trimmed back but I don't  even then it wasn't massive I mean the I think I think the difference between the finished edited  book and the original manuscript was probably like maybe 10 or 12% so it wasn't a huge amount but I  do remember that sense of I don't know if I can write this many words like I better talk about  this and talk about this and and then and then when you

do it you realize oh no it's like I  actually don't have room for all that I got to get to the point like because and move on how  important is setting up Clues I think it I mean it certainly depends on what you're writing if  you're writing a mystery it's super important my stories I wouldn't say they're really Mysteries  per se they tend to be more about kind of this journey that King goes on in each one so it's I  don't think it's like he's not necessarily trying to find out who killed suspe

ct a or something  like that it's more about you need to go find this guy and kill him or you need to go find  this guy and get this laptop that he has and I tend to somehow connect the goal to something that  happened in his past so as he goes on this Mission he's sort of reflecting on something in his past  that troubles him or that that he failed or that is a source of guilt for him so they're sort of  if not directly linked then kind of metaphorically linked if you're writing a mystery obvio

usly the  clues are really important but I think in any case whether you're writing a mystery or even with me  with where I've sometimes I have a scenario where there's a double agent and someone is revealed  to not be who you thought they were and usually that's planned out but there have been instances  where I've been writing a scene and I've thought this would just be so much better if this person  was the traitor and the great thing about writing is you can always go back and add in seed in

those  Clues so if that's why I said like before it's good to divert from your outline sometimes and  surprise yourself there's nothing stopping you from going back where you introduce that character  and maybe add in something that makes them seem a little Shifty or add in a motive that you didn't  have before I think people tend to think of writing linearly and for the most part you do  but there's nothing stopping you from jumping around and changing things how do you write  action sequences

especially when you're using far away exotic locations well the first thing I  try to do is I think it's for a book I think it's really critical to engage all the reader senses so  I think an action scene will play play much better to a reader if they if you can work in things like  sounds and smells how it feels when when you get hit or the the sound a bullet makes as it just  misses you and hits the wall next to your head I try to make sure I'm I'm bringing other Senses  Into the picture whic

h is that's what a book can do that a screenplay can't do as well per se and  most of my readers tend to say that they feel like the fights feel very like immediate and cinematic  and they feel like they're in it with the hero and that's kind of what I try to go for I want the  reader to kind of feel like this is happening all around them beyond that like I said I do think  it's really important to let the action build and take the reader someplace where they're not  expecting at the beginning o

f the scene I think if I think if you can predict the way an action scene  is going to end to me that's not a great action scene like I want it to be surprising so for  instance in my second book there's a it's a very long action scene I think it actually takes place  over like three chapters but there's a they're in a Chinese apartment building and they're they're  they're trying to find this laptop and they get it and they go back down to the the lobby and Kane  realizes he spots these people

in the lobby that weren't there before and he knows that they're he  can just tell the way they're moving that they're agents that are after them so there a big fight  in the lobby and then they run up the stairs and then they hear sold soers coming down from the  higher levels they were waiting stationed up there so then they have to run down a hall and  then they jump out a window to the building next door which is under construction so then they're  like in this fight in this construction zon

e and then the Kane falls off the construction zone  into this giant dump truck so I did I had him falling into a truck and then I found out that  China has these enormous dump trucks I mean they're massive I've never seen a vehicle this  big so I hadn't fall into one of those and so it's like they're fighting in these like torn  up little buildings that are sitting in this dump truck CU they're just like digging up these  hbls and making way for new highrises and stuff in Shanghai so so that's

a scene that starts in a  hotel lobby and ends with a fight on a giant dump truck and traffic so I think to me that that's  that's what I enjoy maybe not Everyone likes that I mean some people might want a more sort  of realistic or more kind of gritty kind of type of thing but I enjoy see scenes that where you  don't you're not sure where it's going to go and at the end you're like wow like that started here  and it ended there that's amazing so that's just what gets me excited pacings lulls an

d suspense  again it's hard I mean certainly it's important and it's something I try to pay attention to but  I don't know that it's hard for me to say do this or don't do that I mean I think every writer  kind of has their own pace and I can certainly enjoy slower paced work I mean I I I quite enjoy  slow paced movies as long as they're interesting and you you learn kind of seeing I'm reading a  a book right now called a ghost month which is a kind of mystery set in Taiwan and it's a very  slow

paced book but very interesting but for me I mean in the books that I write I do tend to I  I think I tend to start slow build to a sort of a steady action kind of pace around the the middle  and then really kind of pull out the stops at the end that's just sort of the flow that I enjoy for  those types of books but I also think it's very uh personal because I have some readers you'll read  the reviews and they be like oh my God it's like action-packed and as a good thing and then other  reader

s will say ah I thought the beginning was really slow and then someone else will say oh man  it was just like nothing but mindless action as a negative so I think it I think it's very personal  and I think everyone's different and you just have to find what feels right to you and have you seen  that in films too especially nowadays where it's very fast cut action it's almost like just it's  this staccato type movement and it it's too fast too much and I think it's interesting because  I think th

at number one you can be fast-paced without doing that for sure if you look at U  a Jackie Chan movie they're very fast-paced they're full of action but because he's doing  all the stunts and things himself he makes sure sure that there's lots of long takes so that you  can see everything he's doing that you don't cut away from Jackie cuz he's doing it all for real  but those are still fast-paced movies but I do feel that inevitably as you watch these cutier and  cutier movies you sort of get us

ed to it because I know the born the born movies were particularly  known for that and when I go back now and watch the first one right it does feel like wow the  editing so much slower it's like so much more leisurely paced and then you watch the last one  it's like bam so you do sort of get desensitized to it as you go but I don't know if books quite  work the same way or not so sure sure and the raid did a great job their pacing even though it  was fast-paced and different martial arts but I

thought the pacing was great again yeah I think  they knew how to cover those Fighters because they could really do that stuff they were doing  I think a lot of the not all but a lot of the American movies are cut that way because the Stars  don't really know how to do that stuff I mean they they get training and they do the best they can  but they're not able to make it convincing at full speed in a long take whereas someone like  the people in The Raid or Jackie Chan they can really do it and

really make it look real so why  would you cut away from them right you said that Thomas Cain does not trust others what are some of  the things you do to create that distrust in the story like are there traits that he starts to get  worried with or are there is body language well like for instance there's sort of an ongoing thing  where his main contact at the CIA is a woman that he has a past with he had a relationship with and  she thought he was dead and then found out that he was alive and

he had he he didn't contact her to  protect her that kind of thing but he never he'll he'll never you she they always give him a phone  which he always disposes of and gets a burner phone and he always like we'll call her and they  have this elaborate series of code phrases they go through and then he's like next time I call you  it'll be a different number and it'll like throw away the phone and she's always very frustrated  that you can't just be a little bit more trusting things like that als

o like I said a something I  do a lot is when someone will say something he won't comment even if even if you would think the  person might offer an opinion or or explain what they're doing someone might ask him a question  well like what can what are you doing why are we doing this he just won't answer them because  he doesn't want to give them that information so things like that I think are mostly what I rely on  to kind of get that across and for for in terms of showing an ancillary characte

r someone that may  seem untrustworthy are there little tells are there things that you do to create doubt in not  just Thomas Kane but in the reader I mean I think it's sort of hard to pinpoint that right like I  think we all know when we meet some someone right there's cues that you're sort of subconsciously  aware of like I don't trust this person or I do trust this person but to kind of I don't I don't I  can't really say like there's no like set list of what I go to but certainly like in in

the second  book there's a NSA employee who is very I kind of describe him as as opposed to all these other kind  of serious politicians and intelligence people like this guy acts like a used car salesman kind  of and he's very like chummy and overly friendly and so of course he's the Sinister one I I don't  know I just sort of try to think of people that I meet my reactions to them and like what would  set me wondering or what would what would I find off-putting you do you make your protagonis

t fully  known in the story but your ancillary characters a little more mysterious so at least we know he's a  mystery in the sense that we don't know too much about him except from a certain point on and we  know that he's been living as a petty criminal and he doesn't trust Authority so there's some things  about him that are known but then some of the characters around him do we make them even more  mysterious or no we also know things about them it depends some of them are some of them yes s

ome  of them no I mean so most of the people at the CIA that you meet you probably know a little bit  more about them than Kane although if you really think about it like I don't think I ever dive too  far into people's backstories mostly because it's really not relevant to the story that's being  told there is a character who is dead when the when the book when the first book starts but who  is sort of important figure in Kane's life he's a former partner a he was also like in the cia's  spectr

al activities division but he came from the Army so he gets brought up a lot and like there'll  be flashbacks to things they did together missions they were on and you learn a little bit more  about that guy each time and so you can sort of look at him and say okay Kane's somewhat  like him obviously they they're friends they have similarities but I think that I tend to not  find backstory that interesting or maybe that's just me I mean on the other hand I think villains  I tend to go into a lot

of their backstory because I'm interested like what made this person what  they are like like I'm not it doesn't seem it's not too big of a stretch to a woman working at  the CIA and she's patriotic and you know why she's doing what she's doing but in in one of my  villains is this Chinese businessman named David Fang and he is basically hates both China and the  United States like with a passion because of all the things that have happened him his family was  involved in tinan square he has th

is really he was he was he grew up in one of the cancer villages  in China where there's like severe pollution and both of his brothers are deformed and so like all  of those things have led him to this place where he has feels like no allegiance to his country  and he also doesn't like the United States so he's going to use this cyber weapon to wreak havoc  and blame the US for it and achieve this goal he has so to me that backstory I'm like yeah I want  to know about that I want to know what m

akes a guy like that so it just depends on their role in  the story and what they're doing very interesting so so another conflicted character very much  like oh very yeah he's I actually I mean I'm I'm very sympathetic to him I mean what he's doing  is horrible but I think when you read the book you can totally see where he's coming from I mean this  is a person who has been screwed over by life like at every turn but who has risen above it all and  become immensely powerful through his own wil

l so he sort of has this almost hubris that he's been  able to lift himself up above all these horrible things that have happened throughout the years  and so he kind of sees himself almost as a like a god but like I said I do tend to have I think  sympathetic villains because I do think ultimately most of the suffering in the world I think can  be traced to other suffering the the victims of suffering or of abuse or of War there's only  there's two ways you can go with that and a lot of times y

ou end up going down a darker path so can  you explain a red herring in the story sure I mean a red herring is like something you use to divert  attention or make you think that something is important usually it's related to a Twist you'll  have a red herring to make the audience look here and then the twist is somewhere else so in the in  the story I was talking about where there's this double agent and no one knows who the Assassin  is I certainly presented several characters that could have b

een the Assassin where he has this one  friend that's always tagging along and there's a Chinese State security agent that's following them  and and it kind of seems to know a little bit more than you'd think he would know and so you want to  give the audience a couple different possibilities when you're if you're going to pull off a Twist  or someone isn't going to be what there if there's a secret that's going to be revealed you a red  herring can kind of be like is it this or is it this or is

it this and that's good because then we  like to try to figure that out I think so I mean I think you like to try to I don't think every  twist needs one but if you can do it and make it effective and make it not obvious then I think  it can be a a cool technique you to use it's funny like I feel I find a lot of a lot of these sort  of terms for me I don't know a lot of it's sort of instinctual like I have a hard time saying like  oh I used this technique or I employed this red hairing it's mor

e like I don't know I just feel  like I'm kind of drawing on all the stories and movies I've seen and okay that's how they did it  how would I do it and it's kind of more much more internalized for me how do you fool the reader  or do you not fool them and you let them have the ultimate Bird's eyee view of the story H I think  that I I've only tried to fool the reader a few times and I don't know I think well first of all  I think you're never going to fool all the readers I mean unless you just

really pull something out  of the blue and when I tried to do it some people liked it other people didn't I mean so for in the  second book there's a a character Kane is going to China to protect somebody and they know that there  is an assassin after this person but nobody knows anything about the Assassin they don't know what  they look like they don't know if they're male or female they don't know they just know that they  go by this code name of red phoenix that's the only thing they know a

nd so there's a character  who's introduced and hm it's tough to talk about because I don't want to give it away basically  the the gender of a character I didn't want to say if the Assassin was a male or a female and  so I use the the word they quite a bit the the genderless singular they which technically is  correct English but it's unusual you don't come across it very often and so I did get a lot of  readers commenting that hey you made a mistake you kept using a plural when it's just one p

erson  in this fight I was like no I mean I got a lot of emails about that so I sort of regret doing that  but other people were like wow I was so surprised when it was revealed who the killer was so I  I think you just got to you do your best you decide I think it's important to decide why are  you trying to pull the reader is it important to the story or are you just trying to manufacture  some sort of surprise because I mean for the most part I don't really think I think it's better  to deliv

er something in a satisfying way than to just be surprising so I would rather in that  case case it was important to the story like who the Assassin was and why they were doing what  they were doing and the surprise mattered but and I haven't tried to do it again and for the most  part I don't I think unless you've got a really good reason for doing it like there's not a huge  there's not as big a payoff as you might think is there a right way to open the story or a wrong  way I mean I don't I'd

hesitate to say there's a wrong way or a right way but I do think I think  in general your best bet is to always be begin as far into the action as you can without making  it confusing for the audience so I mean if if five or six things happen to get you to the point  where the Story begins I don't you don't always need to see all those things happen you can just  have a character say like these things happened and now we're in this situation and we have to  send someone here I think you want t

o try to cut to the chase as quickly as you can but but I  don't think there's like an absolute rule on where that is I mean I think you just just need to go  with your gut and and go also I think you need to go with like what is important to you telling the  story in the third book which is set in Sudan I'd start with this character walking from a from one  Village to another because I really wanted to sort of get across the conditions that these people are  living under it's a they're in a war

torn region they can be literally killed at any second I mean  they've had you they're the the newest Nation on the planet and one of the poorest and I kind of  just wanted to show what that would really be like and this guy like walking past these obliterated  buildings and delivering like little meager scraps of food that he was able to buy like rotten fruit  at a market and stuff like that to to families and things like that so it wasn't necessarily the most  sort of exciting action-packed o

pening although it does go on to end with an attack on the village  it does end with action but it was maybe a slower buildup but I thought it was important to get  across what life was like here because it kind of colors what happens in the story later so to me  that made sense I think yeah it's hard I think you just have to kind of go you just have to sort of  trust in yourself and and what is important to you and what's interesting to you and try to look at  it from a reader and make sure tha

t it's going to be interesting to them too and and do your best  have you visited all of the countries certainly never been to sud or Siberia but I've done a  fair bit of traveling in Asia and so certainly for the first two books I was able to mostly pull  from my own experiences how do we risk insulting the reader well I guess I mean every reader  is different right so those things you just mentioned I don't think I would find insulting I  think I kind of find the opposite insulting if you like

have to explain like every little thing  to the point that it's kind of pedantic also I think things that aren't satisfying are sort of  insulting in the sense of like if it's a Mary Sue character and I never feel there in any Jeopardy  why am I wasting my time with this or a Twist that feels unearned or that when I think about I'm  like that doesn't really make any sense that's sort of insulting but every reader is different  and I mean I've had some readers comment favorably and negatively on

things that I wouldn't even  have occurred to me just very sort of extraneous strange things I think if you just do your best to  tell a good story I don't think you're in danger of insulting the readers that you're not going to  insult anyway because I think inevitably when you put out a creative work some people are not going  to like it and some people are going to love it and that's just the way it is so I wouldn't worry  too much about insulting as long as you're being true to the story an

d doing your best I think  that's all you can do but if there was a risk of insulting it would be overe explaining for  me but I don't think everyone's like everyone's different I mean so you may you may get someone  else who says I didn't understand what was going on like I think it's an I just don't think you can  there's no blanket level that's going to work for everybody so you just have to do what feels right  to you I don't personally enjoy Tom Clancy books because they're so detailed with

the the technical  information I I read Hunt for Red October and I mean it's like a manual on how a submarine works  his readers clearly love that that's what draws them to it and that's great it just isn't what I  like so whereas some people love the action scenes in my books and call them cinematic other people  find them unrealistic or or are unbelievable so I think I just wouldn't worry about it too much I  mean I really don't think you can you just don't know how people are going to react

your stuff  I think the most important thing is tell a good story would you recommend aspiring screenwriters  begin writing novels yes and no I mean certainly I think there's benefits from exploring different  kinds of writing most of my I would say sort of leaps in terms of craft for any writing usually  came from exploring other kinds of writing and applying things I learned so I mean I think  I gave the example earlier about searching my screenplays for ly to eliminate adverbs that came  from

a book about writing novels but I also think applying that kind of screenplay structure to my  novels is what gives them that cinematic quality that some of the readers seem to key to so I think  it's certainly worth trying I mean if you I think if you enjoy it go for it if you don't enjoy it  I don't think you should punish yourself and like force yourself to write a novel if you're like  I really just want to write screenplays if you don't enjoy the process but I do think if you do  enjoy it

it's certainly good to kind of expand your creative muscles in other areas I think only  good things will come from that did you do a lot of short stories I did I mean when I first wanted  to be when I first took up an interest in writing I mean I was very young I was a kid and I really  loved comic books and I wanted to be a comic book artist or create comic books I don't think in my  head I had it split into writer and artist I just wanted to make comic books but I wasn't a very  good artist s

o I started writing instead that was what kind of led me to writing and I really  at that point in time I kind of only thought of writing as writing books we're talking like six  or eight years old old very young and so I would start writing books of course an 8-year-old  is not going to finish a book I would start writing something and I would lose interest in  it immediately and that would be that and then I discovered Roberty Howard who wrote the Conan  stories and the in that really kind of

opened my eyes that oh like these are separate short stories  but they all feature the same character and all set in the same world so it kind of builds this  bigger thing and and I could wrap my head around finishing a short story so I started writing short  stories then very very much Conan ripoff stories same kind of thing it was about a a viking  fisherman with a trident who like went around fighting monsters and stuff and but those were the  first stories that I sort of completed from start

to finish where it was a whole thing so I think  that's that was pretty critical to my development as a writer and that really opened my eyes to what  it's like to like actually finish something and to tell a complete story did you ever think about  publishing a book of short stories or no you always love the novel or Noll form it's funny  I haven't really written a short story since I started writing novels I've thought about doing  it but it now seems really difficult I'm like wow how could I

tell a whole story in 5,000 words  or I mean of course it can be done but I should I really should I haven't tried it but I should do  that and soon probably because that would probably be good for my writing is it harder to make a  living as a screenwriter or an author well one of the reasons I kind of gravitated to writing a  book at the time I was sort of discouraged with my screenwriting and I figured well writing a book  seems way harder so that means fewer people are probably doing it I f

igure I don't know if that's  true like that could totally be not true but that was the way what seemed logical to me at the  time and that was kind of why I kept coming back to trying to write a book I mean there are  a lot of avenues to making money through writing I think it's hard to make a lot of money no matter  what you're doing but in terms of like making some money it's probably I would say easier because a  book is a is a complete thing when you finish a book that is its ultimate desti

nation it is a book  and you someone can read it whereas a screenplay even the greatest screenplay in the world is not  complete until someone makes a movie out of it it doesn't really stand as its own thing that you  can monetize at least not yet so I think I there's probably more opportunities to make money as a as  a author as a novelist but it's also in some ways a harder work and takes longer and I think either  way to be really successful you need a combination of a lot of work and time an

d experience and luck  well the great thing too about novel writing is you don't need really much money to be able to do  it sure and you can also document people's thought process I think that goes also for screenplays  though I mean you don't need money to write a screenplay but I think like the problem is once  you've written it you're you are almost certainly dependent on someone else monetizing it for you  you unless you're planning to produce it yourself which is a whole another level of c

ommitment and  challenges you you can't monetize a screenplay by yourself there's really nothing you can do that  I'm aware of to just start generating money from a screenplay like you need to have you need to  interest other people in it and then they need to option it and then they need to get a movie  made and buy it from you and then you turn it into something else whereas with a book once  you've got that book like there are Avenues to start monetizing it right away you can you don't  you c

an go the traditional route and try to get an agent and send it to the major Publishers but  you can also publish it on something like watpad or self-publishing through Amazon or all different  Avenues and do you think think that it's a it's a do you think this is a fallacy that people aren't  reading as much there there's people well newer Generations they just want to watch videos on  phones whether they're yeah I don't think that's true at all I mean in fact I think I think people  are buying

less books in bookstores but actually ebook sales and audiobook sales continue to grow  year-over-year so clearly people are reading I think they're just shifting the formats that  they're doing it in but I also think I think it's important to to point out that if even in  terms of books if you want to make money from writing books you do you I would very strongly  caution people again to stay away from that Lottery thinking you're not going to write one  book and become like a millionaire it's

like you have to formulate a business plan in essence it's  a business and either a business you're running yourself or a business that you're working with  Publishers on one way or the other but it's still a business and so you need to look at how much are  they going if you're going to a publisher they're only going to pay you a certain amount up front  and then they're going to pay you an installments and if the book doesn't sell those installments  aren't going to come and how many books do

you want to write a year and how many books are they  willing to publish a year if you're going to do it yourself and self-publish like how are you going  to draw eyeballs to that first book how how are you going to keep your output consistent so that  the readers don't drop off while they're waiting for that next book I mean I think that there's  there the creative challenges of writing a book but the moment you want to start making money off  of it I do think it's important to kind of look at

it a different way put on a different hat and  make a plan like it's not just going to no one's just going to magically hand you a stack of money  no matter what route you go so you need to have a plan of how you're going to monetize this and  turn it into a business and even if you do get that one huge hit especially previously in other  years where it seems like people could make way more money maybe I don't know maybe the deals were  structured differently but it'll be what have you done for

me lately you you won't be able to just  rest on that one project yeah I mean the amount of writers the authors that really make massive  incomes off their writing is really small I mean it's I'm not saying you can't make a living you  absolutely can but like that Stephen King level money is really rare I mean even if you look at  traditionally published authors most of them are not making anywhere near that they're making kind  of normal salaries really like like you could make the same amount

of money probably doing something  else so you have to really love this and love the process and think it through and plan and put save  money because you can have I've had good years and bad years with what I'm doing and not every year  is equal so if you have a slow year it's good if you have some other streams of income you can  rely on or savings that you can rely on so I just I think when you but more I guess more above  all that what I want to get at is that when you do invest in that Lot

tery thinking I think that's  when you get discouraged when it doesn't turn up that and you're sure this is going to be the  thing and it doesn't and it doesn't catapult you into like being a multi-millionaire I think it's  really easy to kind of look at that as a failure and give up but it's a much longer process I think  you just need to be prepared for a longer haul and look at it that way don't look at it like I'm  gonna write this book and make a billion dollars look I'm going to write this

book maybe it'll  make some money and then what am I going to do after that how am I going to build that up into  something else I love that terminology and I think we've been really spoiled with that especially  whether we watch MTV Cribs or from going back to Gen X or whatever just we're taught that it's  it's sort of like one and done and and it's so easy and if you can just get to that level and so  much of it is but even those people even Stephen King if you read his book the book that mad

e him  successful was like his fourth or fifth novel I believe he published the others under a pseudonym  and he'd been writing for years he had sold short stories to magazines and he'd been at it since  he was like 16 years old it it I think we the media likes these instant success stories because  they're glamorous and exciting and fun but even those stories if you really look there's usually  a lot more work behind the scenes than what you're seeing and it it takes years to really achieve  th

at kind of success I kind of think of it like and that's why like I said before like I think I  I'm upset that I let my self self-confidence Wayan not because I think it I would have been amazingly  successful but I just it just kept me from doing the things I should have been doing all along  because it's a process and it takes time it's like going to the gym you you're not going to go  into the gym one day and walk out looking like Sylvester Stallone like that's everyone gets that  that's not

realistic but for some reason I think when we think of creative Endeavors we think that  oh we're going to do this one and it's going to be Star Wars or something that makes you billions  of dollarss and I just sure maybe that's happened for like a tiny percentage of people but that's  essentially betting on a lottery ticket so and I think it's much easier to kind of look at it  realistically and say okay I'm gonna write this book and it maybe it's not going to change my life  but I can realisti

cally see it making a little bit of money like it'll it'll pay back the editing  costs and the cover cost and maybe give me a little bit more and then I can do the next one and  I'll have more readers and it's a career that you can build up over a few years and if you look at  it that way you can plan and intelligently rather than dump that first book out and then get upset  when it's not like a bestseller right away yeah and did in onw writing Stephen King talked about  he was teaching and then

he worked in a laundry mat and I think if I'm remembering correctly  different odd jobs yeah absolutely and and even when he quote unquote made it then he had a  new set of problems yeah that he also talks about which that's its whole other ball wax but being  alone in that room and and occupying your mind and different things used to spoke of as well even  like when people when people talk about how they wish they could just get paid to write like I said  like sometimes that's sometimes that's

great but sometimes it may not be what you really thought  it was you might not enjoy it as much as you think you would so sure everything yeah everything has  so many hours put into it that we never see yeah a lot of people like the idea of things yeah so  yeah I like that million dollar idea it's good how does a writer figure out whether they should  write screenplays or novels hm I mean I do both so and I enjoy both like I don't think I would  want to give up one or the other but I think tha

t once you've I think you need to do both to  know right how can if you haven't tried and if you've tried one and hated it then you know but  I think if you like both there's no reason why you can't do both I don't think there's I think  they have similarities and differences and like I said I think as you get better at one you'll  find things that you can apply to the other and vice versa and you're writing will improve what  about to the writer that says I really want to be a writer whether it

's screenplays or novels  I just don't have the time I think that for a small percentage of the population that could be  true but for the vast majority of people I think that's just an excuse I mean we all have the same  amount of time and I wrote most of my first novel while I was fully employed I just I just had to  get up early and I would write for an hour before I went to work again I think I think the people  that think that it's kind of that Lottery thinking again because they're like oh

this is going to  take six months or I can't I can't just do it right away but who cares if it takes six months so  what I mean it probably won't if you really think about it I mean if you wrote a thousand words a  day which I think most people could probably do in an hour maybe two hours so a 70 that's 70 days  that's what two months two and a half months you could have a book so I don't think I think it's  certainly a daunting thing and most people's first books take way longer than they thin

k they  will because like you you just haven't kind of worked that discipline yet you're just not used  to sitting down every day and doing it but once you do that you you I think it's it's easier  than people realize and it you you just have to find the time I mean it's if it's important to  you watch a half hour less of TV every day stop surfing the news yeah yeah that's probably super  helpful these days and it's not even a I I'm not saying I don't think you have to make a drastic  sacrifice

it's not like cut out all TV I mean of course I still watched plenty of TV and I still  do but just a little bit less like just find find find the time I mean I tried that actually it  was very freeing this was back when reality TV was just starting so it was actually very freeing  to just completely have no where I live that if you didn't have cable you couldn't watch anything  and it was just a very free I did I remember when I switched to streaming like I cut cable because  I I was watching s

ome God awful reality show I can't remember what it was and I was like why am  I watching this like I I'm not even interested in this remotely but it's just on so that day  I cancelled cable and I just only did streaming because I was like at least with streaming I am  choosing to watch whatever I watch maybe it's garbage but I picked it whereas with cable it's  just like whatever was on next like you just sit there kind of zoning out it's the same now with  scrolling just like why am I scrollin

g through this Instagram feed okay stop and and it really  takes a lot of it's too easy to be mindless but now I mean look if you're a mom with two kids and  you're working a job like I get it I'm sure it's super hard to find I'm sure there's people that  are having trouble but even if you can set aside 15 minutes I mean even if you can write 200  words a day it'll take you a while but you'll get a book can you talk about the opportunities  that are available now that weren't available to author

s previously yeah I mean I think right now  for writers and other kinds of artists like almost any sort of creative person I think there's  more opportunity now than there's ever been I mean if you really think about it now I think a  lot of people are sort of used to kind of a the traditional way where they're putting out their  stuff and and trying to sell it and that is always going to be difficult but in terms of getting your  material into people's hands I mean as a writer the biggest compa

ny on Earth Amazon has enabled  you to publish your books with them and and you have a potential audience of millions of people  Watpad lets you publish little short stories and things and and little Snippets of things and some  of those have been optioned and turned into movies YouTube TikTok all those you can put out short  films you can put out little sketches I mean there's I think there's constantly stories in the  news about people who have made little shorts on YouTube that end up getting

development deals and  things so I mean the tools are there I mean you you just have to put yourself out there I think  that's the hardest part is like just deciding I'm going to put myself out there I mean honestly  like I watch these YouTubers and I am blown away like by how much work they must put in I mean  these the successful ones produce content like on a daily basis or weekly basis and there's  maybe there's implications that are negative to that but in terms of the hard work that they'

re  doing I think it's pretty impressive like and so I think if you're if you really want to get your  stuff out there like there are so many Avenues to do it now like more than ever in history oh and  sorry also I think I should add too that on the business side of things not only can you get your  stuff out there but platforms like Facebook you can run marketing and campaigns and advertise and  actually build audiences I mean the idea 20 years ago the idea that you could like build an audience

  of like 100,000 people that like similar authors to you and Target advertisements to to a product  you have to those people that would be unheard of and now anyone can do that you don't have to be  a business or a company like so I mean again like there's so many tools that are out there to to  create your content put your content out there and build an audience for it what's the most stressful  part of being a professional that you had no clue until you started I think we we touched on this 

a little bit earlier but I think the the impostor syndrome like that that feeling that it's not as  good as before it's not good enough I think that is a I think I just thought like okay well if  I can get through my first book then everything else will be easier and and actually I heard a  lot of authors say that too like oh the first book's the hardest and in and in many ways that's  true like in the terms of like the hours you put into it and learning the craft and just what it  takes to prod

uce a book when you've never done it before it is very difficult but I think what  I found surprisingly hard like I said was kind of coping with that impostor syndrome afterwards like  I don't maybe I'm not as good as I think I am or maybe all these people who like it that're they're  wrong or they're not seeing all the problems with it or how or maybe I maybe I just can't do it  again like like that is definitely there and I mean I think it's ultimately I think it's just  your brain like psychi

ng yourself out but I it was a lot more prevalent than I thought it would  be so when you were writing the first novel or the Nolla maybe there was a little more sense of wow  this is going great before you knew the response and then once you get a positive response sounds  like it's been mostly positive then you start doubting yourself yeah it's right you would think  I think for the first book it's more like hey can you get this done it's like I've never written  a book before so automatically

if I can finish a novel that's a victory and and I finished it  so that's a huge victory for me like I was super stoked when I finished it I didn't care if it  was good or not I was just like wow I finished a book and but and like you said the response was  largely positive but and I guess I thought I never would have or I never would have thought that  you would feel like worried when you're getting a largely positive response but I did find that  when I went on to the second book I'm like oh

man like what if I let these people down like what if  all the people who Lov the first one and then now they don't like this one I let them down like I  felt that really strongly and then again on the third one and the fourth one and every book I've  ever written like there's that kind of doubt in the back of your head I think I think it's just  inherent if you care about what you're doing I think it's inherent in the creative process and  you just have to learn to kind of not listen to that vo

ice I think it's always going to be there  you just have to silence it until you get to the editing and then that's where I think that  can actually be useful where you could say is this as good as it can be maybe if I tighten  this dialogue maybe I need to add a scene that explains this more that's where I think the doubt  can help but when you're just writing I think you need to kind of ignore that and just Soldier on  and there's so many books on getting to a certain point but there's not rea

lly a lot of books or  yeah there's not a lot of like self-help books for the successful author right like it's like boohoo  right ex but yeah it's true I didn't but but what was funny was all the writers that said oh the  first book is the hardest later on then they're like oh yeah I feel that way too like I think I  think a lot of people either maybe it's a kindness they don't want to tell you like like they just  want you to think like oh it'll be easier once you finish this book they don't w

ant to let like  oh no it's just going to get harder and harder each time well and I'm a broken record with this  one but I'll say it again Julia Cameron that talk about sort of blocked writers or or it's much  easier to have people like you and gain sympathy when you're doubting yourself or but people are  fearful of someone who's confident in doing well because then they have to look at themselves  and say why am I not there and then you push people away so it's an interesting thing where you 

don't think you have to worry about that but then it's much more intimidating to be someone who's  confident and is doing well and people like your work than someone who's well and they're insecure  and then everybody wants to gravitate to help you yeah it's a different set of of challenges there  but I think it kind of goes back to like we were saying like it's not like you're G to do something  and all of a sudden your whole life is Easy Street it's like certain things might be easier but oth

er  things might be harder how did your first book hit number one on Amazon so the the way the the sales  kind of went for me was the I released Devil's do first and I didn't even have I didn't really care  how it did it was it was I was I was giving it away for free anyway I did put it up on Amazon as  well but my real point of that book was to start building an audience from the next one and the  next so then when I launched Tokyo black which was the first novel it did well but not not like I 

can live off of this well but I was happy because it was my first book and it did well I mean it  certainly made real money that was useful and more importantly people really liked it my the  second novel red phoenix that was the one that really took off like where and I couldn't tell you  why I mean I people have asked me I think part of it was that kind of slow process of building the  audience with each book and I did like I said I was running ads and I started started to learn  about market

ing and I was using Facebook and other promotion sites for books and things and and I was  I was another I wasn't I was working at the time and another advantage of working while you're  writing is you do have more Capital to invest into what you're doing and I was able to invest  a fair amount into advertising but that book red phoenix for whatever reason just skyrocketed and  I remember one day I was post supervising on a TV show and a movie simultaneously I was freelance so  sometimes I would

work multiple jobs and I I left my house and and I looked at my sales numbers  like oh they're looking pretty good today and I kind of figured that would sort of Peak or it  go a little bit higher and then I got to work and an hour later I looked again and it was like way  higher when I left and I was like whoa and then over the course of that week I was making more  money off the book than both of those post souping jobs combined I was like oh wow and that was when  I was like okay I could rea

lly do this oh cool so that was sort of the trajectory it took what a  was that a fantastic feeling or was that scary in the sense that oh is this going to last it was  I mean I guess because I didn't expect it to last so I mean I even because I hadn't experienced that  yet so to me I was like okay well this must be a crazy day but then the next day it was just as  high and the next day it was just as High but I will say that every author who goes through those  spikes I think will tell you that

I think the more important thing to realize is eventually they they  don't last I mean it's not sustainable to do that forever I couldn't say why it spiked the way it  did but I did I do think because I had not gone through that experience before I kind of thought  oh this is the way it will always be after like a month of it being like that I was like I guess  this is the way it is but it's not I mean the next book did really well but not that well you will  have spikes and ups and downs and g

ood years and bad years so again that's why I say it's really  important to kind of have a a plan and to look at it Long Haul don't when you do have a spike like  that it's great like be happy embrace it but don't like then build your whole career plan off that  because it's just inevitable that readers come readers go different genres are hot maybe maybe  China was big in the news when I launched that book or something I don't know but for whatever  reason that one probably to this day I think

did the best out of all of them red phoenix yeah red  phoenix interesting and what and I don't think a lot of people are like oh well do you think  that's your best book and although it is actually my personal favorite I don't think that's why  because most people buying it they haven't read it yet so they're just going off of the reviews  and all of the books have good reviews so I think it's I think that I'm very happy for the success  it had it was it really helped my life out a lot obviously

but I think it's more important to sort  of build a consistent career it's something that you can sustain did it have more reviews no the  books t to have the the way the reviews tend to go is obviously the longer book's been out the  more review it reviews it has so I think Tokyo black has the most reviews of all of them red  followed by Red Phoenix followed by fire and forget which is book number three I the devil's  do which is the Nolla doesn't have as many but I think that's because becaus

e a lot of it gets  given away for free so those people can't review it on Amazon because they didn't buy it what does  it mean to be an international bestseller for me like there's no direct I don't think there's any  specific qualification but for me I didn't want to use a term like that unless I could back  it up I hit the bestseller lists on Amazon for my category which is various kinds of there's  various categories on Amazon so I tend to show up in categories like spy Thriller assassin Thr

illers  political Thrillers those kinds of categories and I hit number one more so Amazon will award you  a bestseller tag if you hit number one and stay there for a certain amount of time I don't know  if anyone knows how long it is maybe there's a set amount of time I have a feeling it's probably  dependent on the market and how many books Amazon is selling at the time but just because you  hit number one doesn't mean you get that tag you have to hit number one and stay there for a  certain am

ount of time and so when my books had hit number one and gotten that tag in multiple  countries that was when I just I was like wow I guess I'm an international bestselling author so  and so that was for red Fe Phoenix no that was for let's see Tokyo black hit the best sellers list  in Canada and cold kill I believe hit the best seller list in America another book called depth  charge which is one I co-wrote that also hit the bestseller list in America and the the box set  of the first three boo

ks that also got the when I say hit the bestseller list I mean it earned the  Amazon best seller tag tag interesting so and so America Australia us or Canada America Australia  those are the three territories where I got it so what amount of time did that take to happen it was  over the course of years I mean for sure it wasn't all at once because those books were released at  different times yeah I was kind of like I didn't really think about it I I was super stoked to get  those bestseller tag

s of course but at the end of the day they don't mean as much I mean they draw  the reader's eye to the book and of course they're indicative of success but like I said for example  red phoenix which was by far my most successful book did not earn one of those tags it did for  whatever reason like maybe it was number two in its category I don't know but but that book  was my most financially successful and it didn't earn it so I mean I don't think I wouldn't really  like advise like chasing thin

gs like that and I mean sure they're when they happen and of course  they can be beneficial but I don't think they're as beneficial as people think I've I've heard  a lot of interviews with s really successful self-published authors like people that are making  like Millions at it and they've they've kind of done analyses over how much of a sales bump do  you get when you're the New York Times best seller versus just being a successful book and it's not  as much as you would think so I certainly

wouldn't let that hold you back being afraid oh not going  to hit the bestseller list I don't think it's as important as people believe it is maybe You' be  recommended in search more yeah it's possible like I said I'm sure it helps a little but if you don't  hit it that does not mean your book is a failure sure do you ever go on good reads and and as an  author and I see sometimes authors interacting and do you ever I do I not as much as I used to  mostly because I find my readers don't use it

as much yeah I mean I it's there and I do use it  and some I think certain communities are much more active like I definitely think the romance  Community is Super Active on there so you kind of got to go where your readers are I do have my  own Facebook group so I communicate with readers there there's all different Avenues your goal  with Tokyo black was to make millions and retire on a beach somewhere I don't know isn't that what  every writer tells himself right no I maybe I said that in an

interview as a joke but my goal was  definitely to finish it finish a book and then when I published it I just wanted people to enjoy  it I really wanted people like I said I wanted people to feel like they had gone to Japan or feel  like they'd experienced that and to be excited and it's an action book so of course I wanted people  to get pumped and I remember I remember when the reviews for Tokyo black started coming in that  was really nerve-wracking actually and this is sort of part of the

process so with with reviews  on Amazon you sort of need to kind of jump start it a little bit because probably only about 1%  of people that read your book are going to leave a review that it's not a high percentage of people  that go back and do that so what you do is you you build up a review team of advanced readers where  you're like okay people who have joined your list like I said you build that mailing list and then  you say hey my book is going to launch on this day here's an advanced c

opy can you please leave  your honest review whether you like it whether you don't like it whatever you think just leave it on  Amazon on the on this day so you you kind of know when the reviews are going to start to come in  because you've told everybody and I remember I was I hadn't I hadn't gone through that because with  Devils do that I there was no review team like I that was the first thing I launched I didn't have  a mailing list or anything I was building it so I and I hadn't really tho

ught about that and then  when I launched Tokyo black and then the launch day came I was like oh my God like I'm going to  get reviews like what if people don't like it and I remember reading the reviews that they were  coming in and they were so like just exactly what IID hoped they would be and I don't just mean good  reviews I mean that people commented specifically about the setting and about feeling like they  had taken a trip to Japan and I remember this one woman wrote I've traveled all o

ver the world  but I've never been to Japan and now that I've read this book I'm planning my next trip there and  that meant a lot to me because I had really loved Japan and I really wanted to communicate that to  people and I remember I was in the off we were in a a different place than we're living now but I  had this office and I like grabbed my dog and I was like rolling around on the floor because I was  so happy with that one review like just because it was it was exactly what I had hoped

people would  the way I hop they would respond right that's great you had connected the reader yeah yeah have  you had any meetings with Hollywood producers on turning the book into a film television show I  have there are are at multiple points in time producers have contacted me some of those  options fell through but there is a team of producers now that I'm working with that are  they've commissioned a pilot script I chose not to write it they asked if I wanted to but I felt  like I was too

close to the material as a book so I thought it would be better to get someone  else's take on it and we'll see I mean it's yeah I it's in progress so to be continued okay yeah I  don't know how much you can actually talk about it but I mean I can talk about it but it's I don't  because I didn't write I don't know a ton about what's involved with it but I mean I know that  they're talking to some they're they're exploring both movie and TV series they're talking to some  showrunners that have pr

etty impressive credits but I also know that that's a long road I mean I  there are best-selling New York Times authors that have not yet had their had their books option  that have not yet been turned into Series so I mean I try not to get too involved in that I don't  want to like hold out on that I focus more on the books and the things I am more directly involved  in but yeah absolutely there's a lot of progress being made and I'm pretty excited to see where it  turns up was that a difficult

decision to make to say I don't want to do the screenplay no it wasn't  hard at all I it's funny the producer was really surprised but I just felt like I mean I've spent  years writing those books and so and I and I know as a screenwriter I know that to adapt a book you  have to be able to diverge from it where necessary and I think it would have just been so hard for me  to see it in a different way and I'm so involved I mean there's there's not a day that goes by where  I'm not thinking about

Cain and his world and the next book next story even even in between books  when I'm planning the next one I just thought it would I wouldn't be able to to give myself the  flexibility that you need to do a good adaptation now maybe down the road I I'll change my mind  and step in or something but I thought it would I thought it would was their best bet to like  start with a fresh writer did you ever get to meet the writer yeah I did oh you did okay did you  have lunch with them and kind of lik

e talk about the essence of cane and oh okay yeah and he did a  great pilot script for a he he was working on the TV show side of it and he did a pilot script and  it's I've read it it's good good wow I'm excited how was that to have someone else adapt your  work it's interesting it's really fascinating the the the ways that it's similar and the ways  that it's different and I was sort of hesitant I didn't want to I was like well do you really want  me to give notes and they're like yeah yeah an

d I was like okay well I don't think Kane would  do this or I like this a lot but I would tweak it this way I they're not obligated to follow my  notes it's just this is just my opinion you but I will will say that through again like I mentioned  you never know where these different projects are going to take you because through meeting these  producers and through meeting manager I signed a manager based on these people that I was working  with and in one of the conversations about Kane the pro

ducer who was talking to the manager the  producer is a friend of mine he said oh and Andrew also has this really cool horror script and the  manager was like oh I think I could sell that and it it led to a whole different Avenue and  that script is now optioned and set up and it looks like it's going to happen so I mean again  you just you never know like what your route is going to be and that's why I think it's good to  explore all different kinds of writing and have lots of different irons i

n the fire and and don't  be afraid if something if one thing isn't working or it's not advancing move over to something else  or try try your hand at this or push this for a little while and see where it gets you because  you just never know right so this this DIY route can actually eventually lead to a quote unquote  gatekeeper yeah exactly I never thought of it that way but it's yeah that is a good way to look  at it until you get your material out there you can't do anything with it I mean y

ou need to  show that audiences respond to your work and you need to see for yourself how audiences respond  to your work and then once you do who knows where that'll take you or who might get interested  or what what opportunities that might lead to.