you all look so cool a whole bunch of ladies all right um yeah we'll get started
thanks you all for being here um we're gonna kick things off with just um like a
light rack of inches a little bit about ourselves um so my name is Lee Rhonda Davis I use they
them pronouns I'm a performer director in dramatic here in the Bay Area I'm also
an Anna racist facilitator an educate and an Arts administrator so wearing
a lot of hats within the theater sleep hi I'm amissah Miller uh she her pronouns
I am a drama turd uh sometime playwright uh sometime director uh always educator in various
capacities and spaces um and really just someone who's interested in how art can help us to get
free uh so that's really what I always try to do I am Edna mirarea I'm a clown first mine
second then director dramaturg activist um editor blah blah blah blah goes on and on
and she her pronoun I'm Victoria Orville shaver pronouns uh writer director dramaturg
administrator educator mom all of that well th
anks y'all for being a part
of this thank you for being here um you know uh I think we'll
talk a little bit about like sort of our understanding of like my girl's
intention and like how this all sort of came to be um three girls really beautifully uh centers uh
bipoc and uh artists of marginalized identities particularly playwrights they do a lot of new work
development and in that supporting of new work and development of new work they realized that
there weren't a lot of uh dramaturgs th
at could support right um and so really wonderfully out
of that wanting to create one opportunities for artists to work and support themselves but also
to support plays and another other amazing artists um they created this Workshop that Anissa and I
both facilitated to help cultivate a new cohort of byprocidentified dramaturgs and feminine
women identified geometrics specifically um and that was a really
beautiful experience yes um um so we we had three sessions
uh over the course of a fe
w weeks um an initial session that was sort of about okay
what is dramaturgy actually uh because I think there are a lot of folks even who work in the
theater who if you ask them to Define it might not necessarily be able to say oh yeah I totally
know what that actually means on a practical level um so sort of think about what is dramaturgy
what are maybe some of the um traditional models uh that that we might be taught about what
a dramaturg is supposed to be how might we develop alternati
ve models that feel like they are better
suited to us in the communities that we work with um Lee led a session sort of going through uh
almost like a case study of a play that they had worked on as a drama turd um taking a look
at initial crafts of scenes and then what the scene actually looks like taking a look at these
notes um thinking a lot about the actual work of working with the playwright um and then we spent
some time sort of thinking about uh the other things that drama Turks do
to support supportive
production like how do you leave a post show how do you craft a post show that actually aligns
with the goals of the writer and the theater um how do you uh decolonize the feedback process
right which I know is something that that Lee has has termed of sort of decolonize share-outs right
so um it was incredible uh I think we we all left really feeling like okay this is something that
where we are demystifying and democratizing that all of us can access whether or not w
e have
um allowed ourselves to take on that time it was it was a really wonderful uh process and
I'm so glad that three girls theater came to us and asked us to do it I gave us our resources to
do it too and I think it was like a beautiful it was beautiful for so many reasons um because
there was this opportunity for school sharing not just from amissah and I worked as drama
tricks before but even amongst this cohort of like new and emerging dramaturgs um being able to
share their experien
ces and what they've learned with one another also create Community right
I I was talking about this earlier but I get so many asks to dramaturg something or consult
on something more ask than I actually have time for and it was so great to be like oh I now can
add to the list of other books to recommend or people to like go to first you know I could be the
backup and I think um you know we'll speak more to this later but sort of removing that gatekeeping
removing that like proprietary natu
re that um sort of uh what am I think individualist sort of idea
of like I need to hoard all the opportunities and um connections to myself like I would love to not
get as many emails because it just means there's a bunch of really geometrics running around so
there were so many gifts and benefits um from doing that program and then I think all of those
drama tricks Pamela went on to dramaturg a piece um that three girls was producing or developing
um over the course of the the 2022 season
which is exciting and I think that's another really um
important part of supporting emerging artists and supporting up-and-coming geometrics is not only
giving them the skills and knowledge but also giving them the opportunities to to practice to
learn to grow to meet people right and so I can't speak more highly of the program
and my gratitude um three girls um we just talked at Lane [Music] and I think what's really exciting
is that there are so many disciplines and skills and roles that
are being
held by the folks on this stage so um would you like both like to
speak about your experiences so um I came into theater as a writer initially and
then I wasn't very good actually I never finished anything started lots of stuff but um but my entry
into being a dramaturg was another writer actually asked me to look at her play and uh and I found
that that was just so liberating for me um because I could look at a play and look at the structure
and and find out from her what what s
he needed you know so that I was just as a support you know
I'm here to support you to to be to get what you want out of this play and to make the play the
best but it can possibly be and because I had um acting experience also I was able to say okay well
I know about objectives and things that sometimes you sit in a writing group and they're not they're
not actors at all and they have written this wonderful play and because they aren't directors
or producers they have things come in from t
he sky thank you and you're like well that sounds great
but I'm just gonna do that you know where they've got 30 people or you know you're like oh do they
all need to do this either yeah but um but so um but my ability or my the fun part of drama to
work for me has just been uh it makes me a better writer actually um it really helps me to see
my own work while I'm looking at other people's work am I making the same kinds of Errors am I not
killing my darlings like I should be you know and u
m so when Pamela asked me if I'm a dramature's
play I was really excited to be able to have the opportunity because as I mentioned backstage it's
like I had been doing some of this work without knowing what I was calling it I just hadn't given
it a name so when I had been in other theater companies and they were calling it study guides
now I'm like you really you should have paid me you know this is like wait a minute but um but
it's gonna it's been an exciting journey and something that I
feel like that I can only grow
in and only learn from you know and and it's also really been um a a gift because it does
help to build a community and I feel that's you know I left the theater for a while raised
a kid probably doesn't seem to be raised but okay so it was kind of raised and uh and so now
I'm I'm kind of getting back into the theater and it's such a wonderful family of people and
everybody is can be so supportive and so all these other jobs that we all do pick up and we
we j
ust are there to help lift each other up and as a person of color to be able to do that for
other writers and help them tell stories that go beyond what we want to you know what we normally
kind of see and to be able to help them to just to reach different audiences and to look
at the audience and see themselves in that audience I'm all about like building
new items around people so uh so yeah I feel like it's just been a gift for me
so I'm not gonna say anything else now wow um oh that was
so good um I'm not as
eloquent that's why you should talk first I started as um I started wanting to be a
director in theater so I came I went to USF and I was trying to be a director they didn't have
a directing program so I kind of crafted my own um I've always just tried to like not be
part of the pigeonhole um and I adopted a play by David St John who was a Drama teacher or
professor in at UCLA and it was called the face and it was like a Monumental task I had to get
rights and everyt
hing so that's where I started and then after USF I moved on to Comedy it was a
completely different Zone and then I just focused on Comedy started writing my own characters
and stuff and then I got into film making and you know fast forward like improv and sketch
and all this stuff clowning mime video stuff um I stumbled upon three girls theater wanted to
be part of it and eventually Tina Dalia asked me to be a part of to do drama turkey which I've
never even considered because I thought i
t was just something that you had to go to school for
and I was like I didn't study this in school I didn't think it was like accessible to me
I thought I wasn't smart enough and that I didn't have the skills even though I've been
doing theater all this time and I had a very well-rounded understanding of everything that
worked on stage backstage doing Tech you know I knew all the elements and for some reason I was
like but dramaturgy no so that was interesting um just to even say yes to tha
t was a challenge
for me I asked people what is dramaturgy even mean and do I have what it takes and can I and of
course I could because I've been writing all this time and I know how it works I just didn't
understand I thought it was like more of a research role and that I had to like really
dig in deep and research and of course you do part of that but what I really enjoyed about the
first one was the challenge of converting a movie to a play which I had kind of already
done with the wit
h David St John's novella which was not originally at play I like converted
that so I already had an experience of converting a different medium to another medium but um I also
really enjoyed that it was based in Latin roots and I understood the text because it had Spanish
in it and I was like oh let me correct this I think I know what this is and I think we have like
you know similar upbringings but mine was like a little bit different and I think I was able to
kind of like translate more
some people who don't speak up who don't grow up speaking Spanish have
a less understanding of how the language works sometimes and when they put it to writing is a
little different so I felt like knowledgeable and that was I was like oh I know what I'm doing
so that was cool and I was just it was kind of a blessing that Tina even considered me because it's
not something that I would have pursued myself um yeah and I just found a lot of joy in
it and now I'm working with another other Latin
a a playwright who is a clown as well and
that's my training so now we've got that in common and I just love um yeah Nicole demones
this was the first one I worked with and then um and that was cool because they were sorry to
jump around because there are so many like film montages that I was able to go like let's like
stretch this out and make it a scene that was cool um and now with Marcia Aguilar she's she's writing
this amazing play and she like every time we meet there's a new discover
y I love that because I'm
able to go like what if gym just posing this let's say this character actually was also this
character and this meant that and she was like I know you know it's just like these lovely little
discoveries and I feel like I really connect with what she's talking about and I I'm it's it's a
hard process because it's so personal this time um and I I just we kind of went through this
um like therapy session recently together where I kind of helped her pull away from it
so that it wasn't so harsh and that's really important too and so there's just so many
levels to being a dramaturk that you don't really know are going to be there until
they're there right earlier okay I'm done I so appreciated the way that you um gave
some examples of the work that you've done and some some moments that have felt really like
fulfilling and resonant and affirming um and I'm curious Victoria if you want to speak to some
of those like Beautiful Moments or successes um that y
ou've seen in your in your experience
either as a playwright or as a dramaturg um sure um so as a dramaturg I
would say um in one of the plays it's kind of like a whodunit play and uh and
for me I always watch those type of movies and I always know who did it and I'm like as soon
as I turn it on I'm like okay they did that's got to be that person oh and they've got to
do that you know and it's like it sucks right because you really want that suspense and
so I'm helping the writer to to fin
d that you know that the guilty party but making it
a little bit more obvious you know but not I mean not to the audience but you know just having
so that was kind of it was just fun you know just to find and and it was really fun for her to watch
her um kind of come alive as a writer too you know because sometimes it can be so limiting and then
we've got this idea in your mind and sometimes you don't always see what else is out there or
what else is possible because then you're you've got
the little three by five cards that say
that in scene four this is supposed to happen and sometimes that's really very limiting you know
and I know that you can be really creative in a limited space and that sometimes that's the best
way to go but um in other cases you have to just be really open and and in a way it was almost like
going with therapy like you were saying because sometimes you have to really look at well why am I
not wanting to take that chance with the character um and so u
h so that was really rewarding and then
as a writer it was really nice to have a person of color as a Donald Trump for myself because I had
been in these various writing groups before where I was a person only person of color and I was
saying backstage that I had written a scene where um in uh the lies that bind which was one of the
first place I did with three girls uh there's this story is this young man he's grown up he left
home he had been abused at one point by his father and he comes
back after the years he's now
a successful doctor but he's ready to confront his life and so uh he comes in the door and all the
people that have been in this work group with me um they're all like well he should just tell
him right away that he's in front of you and you know and I'm like well you are not
in a black family because that would never ever work you do not go into your your mother's
home and then just like tell her hey you know you're a horrible mom yeah nice to see you
after
20 years what do you have to eat yeah well so that just wouldn't work and so it
took me working with someone else that uh you know a person of color to be able to help
me find kind of the moments in that play you know because it did need to pick up its Pace
but that wasn't the way to pick it up and so having a drum trick to work with and who was of
color was able to help me um look at the scene and then figure out you know ways to kind of
condense some of the action so that it kind of happe
ned quicker but it didn't take away from
the rituals of life in a black family yeah so [Laughter] um and I mean you started to lead into this
around the like oh it's really important to have that like cultural specificity in
the room or someone that understands the the you know even if it's their own
unique experience but like I a more broad lived experience of a community
or of an identity right and we're not making a monolith out of them by any means but I
think there are some shared cul
tural norms um that vary from family family but you know
what you were speaking to um and I'm curious if like what are some of the the challenges
y'all have experience and that's appropriate to jump into but like as playwrights working with
dramaturgs or um as a drama token and process um I think with you know with any adaptation
you you struggle with not wanting to go to to take over and thinking like am I we were talking
about this backstage like am I overstepping am I actually fulfilling
the vision of the playwright
or am I making this something that it's not supposed to be you don't want to like take it
too far in a different direction so it's like it's kind of a dance like how's this feel oh okay
we can step back that's okay it's more of like hey here here's a suggestion for an edit um how
do you feel about that and then it becomes sort of like a discussion um and then you can give
a little bit of pushback but if you don't get the response that you were looking for or
h
oping for you just have to learn to like step off maybe return at a later date when
it's not as sensitive um I think it's more just like personalities and just learning
how to talk to different kinds of people um that that also happened with my adaptation
of the David St John piece it was like can I use this and can I put it in this way and he was
like well here's how I feel about that it's like okay well I'm like 21. so whatever you want you
know so for me there was no pushback I was like
okay cleared no Senate got it but you know now
it's now I'm more comfortable with saying okay well we'll come back to that and then I make
a note for myself like definitely come back um I think yeah those are just mainly the
challenges um and then again like I said adapting like film to play is like a totally
total experience because things are so much faster when like a filmmaker thinks of edits
right oh quick cut here and I'm like young stage like how are we gonna do that quick cut like
there's no like there's a whole team that has to come in and like roll the whole stage around
to make it like now we're somewhere else so like let's think about how that really flows um yeah
those have been my experiences and challenges so um for for me as a as a writer the one beautiful
thing working with the dormitory had been um as a writer I don't care I mean I
I'll say it this way I mean I don't have um I just want the best of the play I don't know
so I leave my email at the door I do
not I do not have an ego as a writer um I mean not that I
don't want to want to tell me but I mean but I do but I don't have the like oh no I'm in
love with this scene I can't get rid of it or I'm in love with this character I can't get
rid of it it's like so I always want to work with the dramature who is comfortable telling me
hey that's doesn't work and when I worked with um people who were not it was like in a
similar situation like they weren't black you know or a person of color they
sometimes
tiptoe around that they don't feel comfortable saying it to you know as much and uh and so
I don't feel like I get the most out of them uh because they're because they're not aware of
the cultural differences in some in some case they don't feel comfortable to say well that doesn't
is that true does it it's not something that they would know to to say whereas when I was working
with um Tamika uh she's like oh girl but uh-uh oh no no no no no no and I'm like okay okay
she's like j
ust stop just stopped I was like okay but I was good with that you know I wanted
that you know because I wanted somebody who's just going to put me down and say Victoria you
bring them up she's more than said it twice I've seen that saying you don't need to do it again
right just you know so it's like okay fine so um so to me the dramaturk uh relationship
that you have between the writer and the um the dramaturg it's just it's really it is
like therapy it's like having a therapist in the ro
om with a pin and a marker that
says delete delete delete you know um on the other end uh just being able to
like you were saying pullback know when to let it Let It Go but just marking
it you know I'm dog hearing the page come back to that you know you're not ready
yet but we're used to I can't let you just you know I know it's sensitive though
and we're going to talk about it later uh just to affirm that I've heard that same
sentiment expressed by other black parents uh the the experienc
e you named of feeling like
white dramaturgs will tiptoe around conversations about their work um that they can't actually get
feedback that's useful for them because and you know good well-meaning anti-racist white folks
right like but who who may feel some discomfort around saying right this I don't understand
this is not working um and so what disservice are we doing to artists of color if you know white
folks who are producing or presenting their work don't feel comfortable to like enga
ge with it
seriously right right to really bring actual critique to the world um and so I just wanted to a
friend that that's that's actually something that I've heard more than one black and I might say the
same thing to me of how they had worked on a play they had gotten feedback from folks but then when
they actually sat down with me and I talked to them about the play they were like oh wait wow
this is actually something I can work with this is actually useful because it seems like ever
yone
else was like this is so great we love it it's so great right which it is how come nobody told me
that how come no it is right and so there is like oh my gosh I've just been out here is there a time
and no one is willing to tell me the truth about what you know what is or is not working what is or
is not confusing right and so um one of the things that I think is so important about this work of
resourcing more artists of color to step into that role into that collaborative space is bec
ause
like we need to do right by our writers you know we really need to do right by our writers of color
and um there are certain ways in which I think drama terms of color are just better prepared
to enter into that negotiating uh use the word interview today so interesting right but like
it is it's tender right like we're we're we're putting ourselves out there and to step into
that space with a shared foundation and Care uh but also with like the willingness to
tell each other the truth
um it's delicate right it's a practice but um yeah we we have
to do right by it by our writers um so yeah I'm like by doing right by our writers we're
doing them right by all of the artists that are you know hired to work on the project from
actors to creative teams we're doing right by our audiences the center of like you know by pop
communities but also anyone that gets to engage the work they're seeing it at its you know at
its best right and I think something that you all are speaking
to is that there is when there is
shared experience or shared identity with someone there is that kinship that trust that safety
that comes um in a world that is patriarchal that is my supremacist that is all of these
capitalism and all of these things right so how can we arrive in a room together as a dramature
and as a playwright sort of on equal footing um with a shared understanding and like a shared
heart space um and feeling the benefits of that right um and I think you know something
else
that I was hearing is like sort of the spectrum of like you know when um playwrights are asked
are asking for feedback we have white folks that are carry that self-awareness like I am a white
person I don't have this lived experience or like I do not have the experience of moving through
the world in this way and thus I don't want to overstep but I've also experienced the other side
of folks feeling like I know it all it's like I've been through the world unless I know everything
and
like come in with really prescriptive notes I I've had an artistic director so I love a room
of Latina Artisan that's not what a 100 Laurel looks like and they're like I'm sorry for you sir
tell me you you know about my community and like I you know I'm watching this interaction happen on
like looking between all of these people and I I um I I continuously am blown away by this moment
because one of them was like that's so funny because my father was on the middle my uncles
still are day l
aborers and like so I picked this photo because this is what my family looks
like I'd like to watch the man's reaction of like but you know to like watch that
interaction of like I presume to know about this this culture this identity this
experience um simply because I passively see it or you know share space with it in the world
it's also harmful right um and I think speaks to the need for words it's like just a wider not
even just buy pathometrics but drama terms that carry a wide variet
y of experiences identities
intersectional identities and perspectives right um to support all of the stories that are coming
out and happen all of the artists and writers that are are creating work in this moment right um
piggyback on that yeah you had talked about us uh backstage that the original meaning of dramature
came from this man oh sure yeah absolutely so um so I I did study dramaturgy
in an academic environment um but one of the things I learned was that uh the
first dramaturg I
guess in the field the student name Lessing uh it's DNA blessings right it's like
such sacrilege and like drama turkey spaces to talk about the slippingly but um so we're talking
like 1780s Germany he works at the theater company called the hopper theater he creates a job for
himself as uh like the in-house critic so he's helping them select plays for their Seasons
he's giving feedback on the scripts he's also um like writing articles to sort
of contextualize the plays for the audience so
a lot of things that we think
about when we think about drama turkey now um but he really sort of positioned himself as
like this word expert right who walks around feeling like they have a claim to that title you
know positions himself as like the expert on the play in the room right which is how I was taught
right in the academic program that I was a part of I was sort of taught in that model that when you
step into the room as a dramaturg you have to be the expert on the play and everyth
ing about the
play in the room uh which is wild to think about um and even at the time it didn't feel um did
feel right to me and it didn't feel like how I knew I wanted to be in relationship
with artists and in collaborative work um but I think one of the things I've had to
develop over the years because I was like well this is not going to work for me like if I step in
every space you know like I have to be the expert like what does that even mean for me and is that
even something I want
I would much rather that like all of us are collaboratively co-constructing
knowledge about this play as we're creating it and I can support that process um and I remember
when I read Adrian Marie Brown's emergent strategy um which I highly recommend just like um
one of the things that she writes about is um this idea that there is a conversation that
only this group of people in this moment in this context with this shared task in mind can
find and your job is to find that conversation an
d when I read that I was like oh I feel like
that's actually what I do as a dramature right like it's it's not hierarchical it's not about
being the expert it's not that sort of kind of individualistic way of thinking about this is
my domain or my territory but it is okay there is a way that this play comes to life that only
this collection of people can make happen in this moment in this context and I'm trying to help us
get to that place because that's where the magic is so so how am I a
facilitator of that process a
co-facilitator of that process rather than feeling like okay I step in the room and I'm the expert
I'm the smartest right like because that model that way of thinking right that's the reason why
you felt like well I can't be punctured because I'm not that I'm not this right but we all are
if we step outside of that you know sort of I would say Euro patriarchal way of thinking
about that sort of role and step more into like what does it mean for us to just be
i
n relationship with each other and this play and to get to that place where like we found
magic we found the magic that only we can create um and that just feels better to
me as like a person it feels better to me in terms of how I want to be in
relationship to people my community yeah I think that's more of a collaborative
absolutely which is isn't that theater yeah I think in terms of like speaking to that
imposter syndrome that like not feeling smart smart enough like the models that we
have seen
throughout Theater history of dramaturgy has been positioned in such a way um and I think
that there's also like very specific pipelines like uh as I was telling all that stage
I'd never heard the word dramaturgy until like my sophomore junior year of college
and I had been doing theater since I was five you know and like doing theater both like
recreationally and professionally and like and the the way that came to be was like I was
taking a playwriting class with a brilliant um
Latina playwright and she I turned into 20
Page script when it was supposed to be a minimum of 60 pages and a 40 page research binder and
I was like combined this is 60 and she was like so have you heard me yeah nothing play writing is
not for you but I do see like a lot of potential here like this is literally that's a great start
but this is great and like what about this and um you know I didn't continue to study
it I actually dropped out of college and um don't have a degree and was fe
eling like
oh like I couldn't be a job attorney you need degrees to do that you need special training
to do that and it was that Professor like that initial moment of affirming that in me and seeing
that that passion that interests those skills in me is I like didn't pursue it for a little while
and then like jumped in because someone was like hey we need to make this like wall of dramaturgy
for a theater I was apprenticing at at the time the magic theater and I was like great like yeah
I'
m gonna look up like the Philippines from the like the socio-political like climate in the
middle from like 1940 to 1987 and like we're just diving in and it was like and it was so cool
because you know I am not Pinoy at all um but my old lived experience is like an afro-caribbean
like a child of african-arubian immigrants um as someone who like feels deeply connected to
like diasporic identity I could bring that lens and like recognize that this is not my identity
and this is not my story
to tell but I could bring that lens in and like what is the food what is
the music what is that and you know this wall we ended up creating was so much more than anyone
anticipated we had forgiven one wall and I was like can we have all four exactly and Zone and
uh and people really like appreciated it and I think I didn't I didn't think of myself as a drama
jerk in that moment but then they gave me like the assistant dramature credit because of all of this
work that I had done and like tha
t is what like from that first seed in that playwriting class to
that moment is what really like blossomed my drama to the career and I think what's what's beautiful
about this Workshop is we sort of disrupted that academic pipeline of like you have to study it
a certain way and learn the same books and that um and also then it resulted in paid opportunities
right out of the workshop and um how can more of those models come to be right and how can we
Empower more books to just like if you h
ave the skills and the interests or you want to learn
the skills like you could be a drama Turk um and there's so many ways to to approach it too um and
I'm I'm curious if like y'all have sort of any I'm trying to figure out like if this
is a thought in in draft form but um like in thinking about that pipeline um either your experiences within that or
um like ways that you've seen that disrupted um for me I have not tried to get a job as a
doctor I'm Pamela hired me and so that's and then a
nother writer contacted me they just made
me as a writer and said hey you know you've always um whenever I've sent you my scripts in the past
and you've always come back with some recyclable thoughts and so would you believe the drama
turkey will pay you and I was like oh okay yeah that sounds like a great idea you know if I'm all
I'm doing is you're not looking at that I can do that but um and then before that of course I had
mentioned that I had done it without knowing I was doing it so u
h but I do think that we're starting
we're starting to see more writers of color just in general getting produced and uh so I think that
will open up more opportunities for drama terms and I think um it's a great transition if you're
a writer to to become a Trumpeter you know just to because I think you just keep learning you're just
going to learn every time you do it you're going to learn more about yourself as well I mean
so it's a win-win because you will just be a stronger writer havin
g been a doctor you know just
like um if you act or draft anything it's going to make you a better writer but definitely dramature
because you're really going to be looking at the whole picture and seeing how the whole story
comes together and and when it's not your own work that you're looking at you have the benefit
of really definitely being objective and so you can really say oh you know wow so I can really see
that Arc in the characters or or I you know and you don't have that oh I lov
e that character
so much so like let them get what they want as opposed to saying well maybe they should have an obstacle just for just
for the shits and giggles but anyway um I think I'm disrupting it right now
just by being a doctor now I'm putting it on my freaking resume so you're saying it out loud and
being here in this panel and being like amongst you um just feels good to me and it also like
is like a little pat on the back like yeah you did it now you have another credit it's like
getting one bad credit you're like you're like but uh I'm also telling people about it and people
are going what is dramaturgy again and then I'm like ah now I know what to answer because I used
to ask this very same question so that's cool um I think I'm teaching people and I'm I'm
telling my friends of color like I'm I I thought I couldn't do this and now I'm doing
it which is encouraging them to maybe pursue it later yes and that's ideal so I just love
that that this is that this exists
and I think three girls theater for bringing it to us um I
didn't even know it was a thing I didn't go to the workshop I would have looked to but yeah I would
still go to another Workshop if we did it um yeah same here I would go I didn't
go either but I woke up well that I think that that's you know connected
to what this panel is called right representation literally just seeing ourselves right and seeing
other people doing the things that you love doing that maybe you never thought you
could do right
and we often talk about that in like the stories that are being presented or the actors brought
in the bodies and telling these stories on stage um but it also comes back to like the creative
teams and the all the roles that one can hold um in in in the the collective like practice and
ritual of making theater together right um and I think you know something else we had talked about
backstage was like scarcity and that tokenization right that happens and so the more of us tha
t
there are ones the just more incredible artists out here supporting incredible artists telling
incredible stories but then also allows us to um like be our fullest selves right and and say no
to work that like doesn't I think you were really speaking to this I'll keep it briefing and pass
it off to you but like stop it say no to work that like actually I may not be the best person suited
for this or like I I I think another type of drama trigger another type of person could better
suppor
t this work um and knowing that there are plenty other people that you can recommend or or
send their way um just just you know bolster the whole theater like ecosystem right yes yeah right
because not every drama term is Right early play um and when there are so few of us dramaturgs
of color like we get called on a lot and you know you know that's like someone you know um and you know I think sometimes because
we are all sort of embedded within this capitalist system that tells us we have t
o hoard
we have to hoard opportunities for ourselves right there is this thing like well okay if they're
reaching out to me I guess I have to do this I have to say yes to this and you know it's a writer
color or a queer writer or whatever the case I'd be and that's my identity inside yes yes I have
to be the person but not every play is going to resonate with us not every play benefits from
us as much as it would benefit from someone who maybe brings in a particular perspective or
skill se
t and there is a way in which like you named the tokenization part of it like when there
are so few of us I think they're that tokenization like it's it's there it's happening right like
where whether or not a play is in my wheelhouse just because it's black writers I was like well
this is a blast genre so yeah that's a good thing um or it is it the case that I I pass on this
and I pass it off to my sibling I pass it off to my sister I pass it off to my my artist friend
right I pass it off
so that we are collectively like sharing the work rather than feeling like
okay I have to do everything that's offered to me um and whether or not I resonate with
it have to do it because it's another artist of color or another queer
artist or whatever the case might be um Yeah the more of us there are the more we all
get to work on the things that really speak to us and um create collaborative teams that are
coming together not solely based on identity right like obviously identity is an i
mportant
part of this but it can't be the only reason why artists are put together it can't be the
only thing that connects folks um and I I think there's there is such a danger when there are
so few of us of that process happening right um and I have been really trying to be better
these days about saying no to things that don't like feel like they are resonant working um and
it's still hard right like I still feel pressure um yeah yeah well especially because so many
um are writers of co
lor are not even used to getting a drama time I mean there's just that
little other side of the story is that a lot of theaters don't even think to or they just use
their person yeah yeah whoever's on staff and so they're not even even necessarily looking to say
oh we need to get a person of color to to assist this writer you know so when they do they're
yeah you feel bad about like saying that okay I think you're like like naming the like
resourcing of work by artists of marginalized ident
ities like we we have consistently been
under resourced in terms of like you know in the long Legacy of theater making and we're
starting to see a shift but you know I I know of lyrics I have to fight for me to be in
the room or fight to get me paid when I work you know right 100 siphon is not going to
cover 40 hours of rehearsal and coming to Tech and coming to previews and writing the article
and blah blah blah you know um and so we have to believe have to all do a lot of advocacy
on beh
alf of ourselves on behalf of one our community our fellow artists on behalf of like
our plan our work um and I'm excited to see like um we wanted to make space for questions if you
all have it we had no pressure also I have plenty more prepared in the candle yeah I was intrigued
you were talking about decolonizing the process and I am very curious if you can unpack that
a little bit like what is that I know what it means what does it look like yeah um I mean
for me decolonizing drama turke
y looks like um acknowledging the the work that has come before
and all of the models and Brilliant Minds that I like have um drawn from in order to create my
own practice and like ethos around dramaturgy um that looks like approaching a work at like
removing that expert mindset like I'm only an expert of my lived experience and even that I'm
not so expert in right um and so like coming into a process with like an open heart and mind and
like a spirit of generosity in that like I do not I c
annot presume to know this play better than the
playwright or this experience better than um you know the folks in the room I think decolonizing is
also um a what is it like a deep higher operating yeah a dehierarchorizing if it wasn't a word
it is freaking out of all the collaborators in the room and helping to facilitate that like
every voice and every perspective in the room is um valuable and valued and and like it
is my job as as a dramaturg even as a director to take all of those idea
s and and help
synthesize them or help sort of streamline them um in a way that feels Equitable that in a way
that feels intentional um and like heart forward um I think also being a d like like a decolonized
drama trick for me is also like putting people first at it you know like I'm not coming in
like with a mind of like I'm gonna make this play better and like I know exactly how to
do that like for me that looks like asking the playwrights and like questions and really
understanding the
ir intention and what they're hoping to do or or really understanding
where this story is coming from either from their own life or from their own Spirit
um and and helping to support that whether or not it's like my aesthetic or or something
I fully you know like fully resonates for me um but like the the playwright
comes first and the play comes first um also like for me decolonizing drama tragedy
has looked like using a lot of my other skills and and hats um to create a space that like i
s is
supportive of the humans involved so like I have a background in trauma informed care and in crisis
counseling and sexual health education and so I use a lot of those skills as a drama trick to just
support the humans in the room and so recently I worked on a project for NCTC where I was brought
on a dramaturg but we realized like the play deals with some really heavy subjects around childhood
sexual abuse about queer identity about coming out about being a young person of marginalized
identities in a very conservative town and they realize there's a need for the support for
the the actors in that space and having to step into that story and those those identities every
single night and so for me I was able to bring in all of these other skills and so there is like
a malleability to what a drama Turk is and like within my bounds of consent and boundaries and
my own self-care but being able to bring in all of these other elements and allowing what a drama
turd meant to b
e more expansive um and so you know I can't say you know therapy kept coming up and
I'm like I am so lost and the therapist there's dramaturg and I think that sometimes just what
drama terms do but also like I have that skill and experience and the passion to do so two it is
never enough it rarely feels like an obligation to clarify but yeah and so I think it is
like a more expansive thinking around what drama Trilogy can be and at the core
of it um honor the legacy of those before and supp
ort the folks that are
making the work happen now um so yeah what what does that look like when the balance
between director and dramaturg in the room when that needs to have that therapy needs to happen
is that's like are you bringing in exercises and going to the director and saying suggestion
exercise or are you just like what does that look like um do you mean in terms of uh like who leads
those kind of moments is it that you're bringing in an exercise or is it that you're wanting to
g
ive like some context to the situation and trying to like have everyone come together and talk about
it for a second yeah what does that look like yeah I mean for that particular process eight ways like
coming in with sort of my normal dramaturgical packet about the world the time period the
play all of that good stuff but then also um like I came equipped with like a lot
of resources for anyone who was you know um either triggered or activated by
the work or having to step into it um and t
hen actually the director was really
incredible Richard Mosqueda shout out to them um was like this is something that I don't
know a lot about and so I want to empower you and so they scheduled they took time out of
rehearsal so that I could lead exercises with primarily the cast but the whole creative team
was invited in um like you know Richard um also participated our stage managers participated um
and like everyone was a participant in that like I did the exercise as well with it and I
I mean
that's that's been sort of a unique circumstance um but I often will go to a director and say like
hey you know I've been noticing like this come up or the fact that like I know how to I have
experience reading people and I'm like hey you know I'm just finding that this actor seemed a
little like closed off like um feel free to send them my way or like you know I might encourage
you to do that and so I can often be a little bit of like a consultant and like a whisper
in the ear to n
ot overstep director position yeah and because of my director experience like
you know I I like to set boundaries around like what are you what would you like me to weigh in
on I don't want to overstep the some of these notes are more directorial in nature some of these
notes are specifically about text or this you know all of those things and I think leading with that
like open conversation about like what boundaries you have how do you like to be communicated with
what what do you want my
eye on um is always so so useful it allows people to like receive it right
as opposed to me just being like coming in and telling whatever I wanted to tell them you know um
we we open those lines of communication and build that trust together right yeah yeah yeah I'm happy
that like offline we can talk all about it yeah any other questions okay so I'm um one of the things that I'm so uh chuffed about with this conversation is um
the the recognition of the emotional labor of the dramaturg an
d I think that we especially
coming out of an academic setting you have an idea of a drama show as a very analytical
role but when you're in the rehearsal room um and so uh I wanted to ask about um just to
give us a little window into the ways in which um both of you believe in and is that the
ways in which you elicited and helped the dermatodes in training to be aware that those
things would come up and how you might navigate and I think you just you just spoke to
it a little bit about bo
undary setting and communication lines but what are
the other ways in which you can really help to be prepared for the emotional labor and
then manage the emotional level when it comes up you want music [Music] because I mean I
mean I think you spoke to so much of it but um you know the reality is
that for me it it really it was something I learned through doing
but I think it's also something that in the same way that you sort of draw on your
skills that you cultivated in other spaces I d
rive so much on like the kind of educator
that I want to be and and thinking about um the emotional labor that I do in
that space um which is also a lot um which again is not something that we're really
prepared for I think in academic training programs um but I think one of the ways that I have
tried to prepare myself for that emotional labor stepping in because particularly because like I am
someone who um like I I I I feel a lot of you know what's in a space um I pick up on a lot it affe
cts
me a lot um and so I've had to come up with like okay what are the grounding and centering things
that I can do for myself before I step into a space uh so that I know that I'm stepping in and
that I'm like okay like my feet are on the ground like I am not here I am present right like um but
that also right is it is it a space where other folks are also committed to doing that themselves
because that's not always the case I've had many experiences where like I'm really interested in
ho
w are we building trust how are we communicating you know how are we um sharing voice how are
we D higher what is I forget the words right um you know how are we being like I what I
could be interested in all of those things and then coming into a space where like a
director's not interested in those things um and there are dynamics happening in a space
that don't feel aligned with those things that are important to me and those have been the most
challenging spaces for me to navigate I thi
nk it's it's actually it's really lovely when you have the
experience of working with other collaborators who are like yeah we all are committed to these
things let's practice together who else has resources or exercises or things that we can share
it's much harder when other folks in the space are not committed to that um and I think that's
when I have to go back to thinking like okay how are we asking questions or offering um
while recognizing that at a certain point I have to have my own
boundaries um and so really it is like if you are going to do
the work of offering that kind of support and care I think you always have to be making sure that
you're offering that supporting care to yourself um because if you're coming in and
you're off and you're not grounded and uh it's really hard I think to offer that two
collaborators um and it's hard to do it in an environment that's not really prioritizing that
uh and and then it for me it's been about okay how can how am I making
sure that I'm offering
that to myself in each moment in each interaction um and sometimes when you model that
other people pick up on it right like when you model certain ways of communicating of
asking questions rather than being prescriptive um people can pick up on that right um and
I've witnessed that too I've witnessed how the ways in which I communicate and how I show
up in a space that other people on a team will notice it and will say I really appreciated
how you did that like and
we'll start trying it on themselves so I don't know I felt like kind of
randomly but it's uh yeah it can be challenging I'm not gonna lie like it can be challenging
there are really beautiful lovely experiences that I've had like the one that we shared
and they're the ones that have been harder um for me it's like it is something I'm still
working on and I learned recently but it's like at the end of the day you got to protect your
piece right um and as like I'm a deeply empathetic person a
nd I want to support everyone through
everything all the time and I am learning how to set boundaries around that I still show up and be
like a heart forward person and still try and have try and have as positive as positive as of
an impact on the world and those around me um while also making sure that I am taking my care
of myself and so I Empower people like when you're feeling overwhelmed or like that's just too much
you can tag out like respectfully and thoughtfully and compassionately
and say like I'm so sorry
going through that I can't hold this for you right now but let me see if there's a someone else that
can tag in let me send some resources your way um because I don't think that the role of the
dramature shouldn't or it should be expected or assumed that a dramaturk will take on that
emotional labor um I I think like if if if you are willing to do it and if you are willing to
meet it like awesome great if you have the skills to do it awesome I also want to encoura
ge folks
that like if you don't have the skills to do that like take a step back it's okay that you can say
I I don't know that I don't have the answers and I don't have the solutions and I actually don't have
the skills to to hold you in this right um but I I can give you all of my love and support and
support you by bringing you food and just being a friendly face rather than the person that you um
that that helps hold your burden or your your load um and I think um like lines of consent
always
checking in with one another around like hey you know either even even like trying to elicit
the like something seems up like what's going on um like using um like consent forward practices
around that but also consent forwarding practices when you're seeking support or help right um
and I think a lot of the work that a lot of contemporary work now is dealing with heavy stuff
because the world's kind of a shitty place and um we're talking about our real lived experiences
like living
under systemic oppression and all of its various forms and so it's it's always likely
that those things will come up because we draw so much from our own lives as theater makers and our
our own experiences and so you know it's it's not unavoidable but I think there are um also like
centering joy in the process like like where are the ways that you can find joy in peace um like
to help you you know navigate that emotional labor like and how can we also uplift stories that are
censor joy and
um marginalized communities like thriving and and um experiencing bouncy as well
you know um I think it all has to be a balance and also like that too like I'm trying to be
more intentional about the work that I take on right like oh okay I I delve into this piece about
you know childhood sexual abuse about trauma and there was a lot of pain and it was a beautiful
script and I'm so grateful but I was like I'm gonna take a pause on that I'm like right now I'm
about to jump into a process ab
out like two young black women like meeting and falling in love and
like in the 90s and there's fun music and like there's heavy stuff in the script but um it's
like it's a different experience because it's a it's about joy and it's a romance it's a love
story right and so even just like balancing my year of work around what kind of stories I'm
telling is yeah it's also really important um and also noticing when you're if you're getting
called in for just that work I realized for a long per
iod of time like I was dealing with a lot of
plays about sexual assault um about um like the the black trauma about the treatment of like women
invents particularly black women and I was like oh I understand why people reach out to me to engage
in that work but that's also not the only work I want to be doing I'm honored to support it but
also I want to be able to access other pieces um but yeah so so you know recognizing maybe
when you're being typed or tokenized outright um and then being
able to advocate for yourself or seek support in in advocating for
you and the stories you want to do so you won last week sort of close it out yeah I
I just um I just wanna this has been a totally inspiring conversation I'm excited and thinking
about new ideas really and sort of what's possible and that's what I want to ask you about
I really appreciate how much you've emphasized the um nurturing and um and uh and and and
emotional labor and support of work that comes out of dramaturgy bu
t I also think of
drone Turks as curators and um and and in that way Gatekeepers and so as we as we like
see this growth of of um more uh populations centered in dramaturgy I just want to put it to
you to sort of like tell me what the vision is thank you for that beautiful framing too like what
is um I think you know I would love to like pass the mic around like what is our vision for the
the future of of drama turkey and theater with it I I have the questions you know that we had
talked a
bout before were like what we need what we can do right um so I'm wondering if I want
to share some some closing thoughts around that I just love that you talked about Twelfth Night
and Shakespeare like I'm not a Shakespeare person but like I don't think that I would ever be called
to do a Shakespeare play as a dramaturk it just it's just not a thing that I ever thought I would
do just like I never thought I'd be asked to be a dramatur but do you not get 12th night calls
because you're not
white like what is going on there you know I'm like oh that's interesting not
something I usually think about and but like do I want that that might be something I might want you
know what other opportunities are we missing out on because people don't think of us first I'd
love to see yes just represented in more ways um I love that we're all women up here um I I
mean I did in college I did see a lot of drama trips for women but they were always white um for
some reason and I just I don't k
now and like I was saying backstage to them I felt like that was
because uh it's a weird stigma of like oh well they must they must have a masters because they
could afford have a to go to school longer and so they got to be educated in dramaturgy I'm
not told about it because I don't or I don't know it's just this weird like classist thing
that I felt was present and it really wasn't so um I don't know I think just just uh
opening it up more and talking about it and seeing us on stage repr
esenting us
dramaturgs will help facilitate that future yeah totally I agree I mean I think that I'd
like to see drama you know drama jokes of color be able to just do it anyway you know not just
limited to a certain play Like We Only call you when we have this kind of a playwright but it
should be any really any play right because we can bring some flavor to almost any to anything
right you know and then also to see geometry as a reaching out to the audience as well as the
people behind s
tage it's because the audience a more informed audience will enjoy a play more
than they will when they come in completely blind to a story but if they have a little bit
of background information and if they feel comfortable asking questions and there's someone
that maybe um I mean you know I still go to I go to a lot of theater and there's a you just don't
see a lot of black people or people of color in the audience though right you know I mean there
are times where like I'm like counting
the people you know and saying ah there's oh there's a
couple over there okay girl and uh there may be a lot of people on the stage but there's
still not an audience I'm trying to find out if there's ways that as a as that drama
Turks can help to facilitate and bring in that audience you know using our language as
a way and our cultural backgrounds as a way to uh engage audiences so that they feel comfortable
coming into the space of the theater because for so long I think the theater was s
omething
that people just didn't think was for them you know and trying to make sure that we have
opened that door for everyone to come through really a big part for me is around that like just
more opportunities and not being like pigeonholed or tokenized or tight in a way right um I can't I
use an example I don't have like a huge desire to the Shakespeare but you know even um you know
please that don't Center like my own specific identities or art just like our silly comedies or
dramas t
hat are not necessarily centered around identity but more like The Human Experience
right I I'm a human being speaking to those things what it means to be in love what it
means to have complicated family Dynamics all of those things like bring me in for a freaking
Shepherd play I love me some Shepherds like I'd love to drop a person Shepherd you know um and
and so I think that's a big part of it I think um like seeing dramaturgy like be a tool for
Liberation which I wrote that down when you
said it and I y'all also so I'm gonna start
just naming things that I was taking notes on that are not mine and giving full credit to
this incredible group but like dramaturgy is Liberation as it's tied to Shifting the theater
landscape stories audiences artists right all of those things are tied to one another and shape
one another right um like drama charging being a a catalyst for community and artists supporting
and uplifting one another um dramaturgy as an opportunity to affirm our kn
owledge our skills our
experiences and like allow allow it to like shine um um you know dramaturgy becoming a more
standardized thing as you were talking about not every plague it's a dramature because the
resources for a drama Turk and how you named like the feedback and outside eyes actually makes the
work better right or the fact that like the more Stories We Tell for by and with our communities
the more our audiences are gonna to start to look different right um and I think you know som
e
of the things that we had talked about earlier dramaturgy is or like the future of dramaturgy can
be rejecting the hierarchy the hierarchicalization um and uh rejecting the idea or like rejecting the
positioning of the dramature against the expert um like seeing dramaturgy value lived
experience and subjectivity right um and the questions and the unknowns um and
like all of those things I think shape this really beautiful future of what it can be and
like more opportunities that again di
srupt the pipeline right that that allow people to see
themselves as dramaturgs feel like oh I have all the skills and knowledge to do it and then be
able to jump in and start getting paid work right um you know you can't start calling yourself
a drama joke until it feels like you can't start calling yourself a dramaturg until you
start getting credits as a drama trick right um no anyone can call themselves a drama
joke if they want to um but like allowing more people to see themselves to r
ecognize the
Brilliance and potential of themselves and like step into the work and all of those things came
from this incredible Group which I think sort of reflecting how fast yeah oh my gosh yeah I was
thinking so bad like I Hope they've been thinking because like the gate is right the hierarchy it
is the elitism it is the the class uh barriers to access like it is all of these things and
and if they're I I have had the joy of working with so many first-time playwrights right people
who
maybe were poets or actors or you know other artistic practitioners but who are venturing
into the work of playwriting for the first time and that is where I'm always just like come
on in yes like there is room there is space like if you have a story to tell and you want to tell
it in this medium then you are a playwright and let's make a play um and so my my vision for
I guess a future in terms of where dramaturgy fits into it it is like how are we a part of
Smashing the gate rather than
being Gatekeepers um is the best way that I
guess I could phrase better [Music] yes somebody I mean say somebody said well 3gt
yeah that's not an activist data I was like interesting are there any um resources that you
can point a audience to if they're interested in becoming a dramaturg if
that helps you um through your journey you mentioned a book earlier yes oh yeah
yeah yes and that's just a resource I think for all of us as artists as people
who are interested in a liberated World um
Adrian Marie Brown emergent
strategy uh she also has a book called I think it's called holding change about the
practice of facilitation which I have found really useful as dramaturg educator all the things
that I do just just Adrian Lee Brown in general um anything else I learned yeah I mean I
think um there's like lmda which is the literary managers and geometers Association
which is always a really great resource to check out like they were having and they
had an emerging emerging drama
turg like good I don't want to call it a support group but
it was like a gathering for emerging geometrics to be in community with one another and one for
bypass boats and um disabled dramaturgs and so um they have a lot of resources like a job board
I think it may cost something to join but they also have free resources and information
um I also like because I don't have like a traditional dramaturgy upbringing like I can't
point to like specific books but I think the thing that was most v
aluable to me was just reading
as many places as possible um the national new play Network um go on there read anything
and everything that's exciting to you release Judgment of like this is a good place is this a
bad play just read it it's all informative um yeah there's three girls theaters company
that's like been really helpful to me yeah yeah we started do you
have any workshops coming up I would say it's very likely full
of 2023 and we have not yet uh killed its place okay in our cal
endar [Music] yeah any projects you want to apply socials you
want to play doesn't have to be about parameters you can just like you're interesting people
so if the audience wants to check you out yeah um this give give you on the floor go ahead okay I have uh I have a show
on March 17th and 18th called Aetna in a bottle it's a sketch comedy show
and we'll be closing out piano fight so Saturday will be the last two shows there
and tickets are gonna sell out so get them now um and then um Ap
ril 16th I will be in my circus
improv troop Circle A which means circus yes and French stageworks at 7 pm it's a Sunday and we'll
be just doing improv clowning it's really fun [Music] um so uh I work with theater first and Berkeley
and so we're going to be putting up a show uh room um and it's directed by coming out continues
and uh written by Maricela Ortiz so it's very exciting play and uh I am kind of finding
myself being the person putting together as a study guide so uh but it's going
to
be opening in May 5th at 31st in Berkeley you know one shot I haven't really exciting um I'm working on a couple things but what I
really want to plug is an organization on a part of have empty capitalism for artists formed
in the pandemic a political education learning community for artists who are interested in
raising class Consciousness and I facilitate an intro to anti-capitalism for artists cohort
along with some of my facilitator comrades a for a is sort of the acronym that we us
e we just won
an ability award which is incredible which came with some grant money which means we're going to
be able to like even offer more things so check out anti-capitalism for artists if you are all
interested in how we as an artist Community can um decolonizing right but like how we can understand
ourselves as workers um of what it means to create better working conditions for artists but
also what it means to think about the role of artists and cultural workers in the work
of Libe
ration so yeah anti-capitalism practice um uh I'm really excited um I am the director
of artistic programming and marketing at crowded fire theater and we have our Matchbox play
rating series which is a new play development um series that's going to be
happening in mid-april to early May um and so four of the playwrights are a part
of our resilience and development lab for black women and some identified playwrights who
are in this two-year cycle where they're being supported to write brand
new plays um and uh
and then we'll be having two other playwrights including Lily Gonzalez's transformada which
I'm really excited about the play that I read in a literary Fest for a literary or like a play
Festival that is now getting further development um I'm going to be associate directing The
Wizard of Oz at UCT American Conservatory theater um which doesn't they can inherently feel
radical but it's going to just be this like queering love letter to the Bay um
I never thought anybody
on The Wizard of Oz in my entire career and but there's those
opportunities right um so I'm really excited about that that starts with that I think we
start previews at the end of May and open June um and then the last thing is far off but I'm
going to be directing a play that I started as a drama turgon for their players Festival
babes in Holland right and I got postponed due to coveted Publications last year but we're
bringing it back to the Mainstays and it is um a really beautiful love
story about black women
that meet and fall in love in college um but I'm really grateful that that'll be produced by
shotgun players but they provided the resources so that we could hire a team of almost entirely
emerging artists all women and femes of color paraben with an established Mentor so they're
getting some of their first like lead designers artist credits and also getting the support and
sounding board um that they need and so it's kind of creating this really exciting like pipel
ine for
other artists which I'm super super grateful for um and it's part of the theater Bay Area
director's residency I received in 2021 so yeah [Music] thank you
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