If it were possible to make an apolitical ... journey ... That's interesting. That would be the ideal. Yeah. To really take all the rhetoric and all the ideology
out of the equation. And just play music. People playing music for others. I am Michail Paweletz. I'm Alan Gilbert. And this is About Music. And life. Today, we have
another episode of our podcast. Talking about ... travel. All the things
that go along with being a musician. Involving being on the road. The question of whether
orchestra
s can and should travel. And the chaos which can happen. A lot of interesting things
came up in our conversation. I think you'll enjoy it. Alan, it's so nice of you
to welcome us here. At your place. It was convenient 'cause
we always have these cameras here. We might as well use them. Have a show in our living room.
Yeah, it's ... It's a family place. A place where you live
and prepare, I guess? This is our living room. And - you can't see it on camera -
a music room. We have our piano in there
. But absolutely in use every day. For you it must be special
to be at home. Usually ... I think you're traveling. This is very nice of you
to make the trip here. You came all the way
from Hamburg to Stockholm. Yeah. I'm music director
of the Royal Swedish Opera. And I'm also ... ... conducting the Royal Stockholm
Philharmonic this week and next. I travel a lot. Yeah. Hamburg is one of my important
cities, I spend a lot of time there. But this is very unusual,
kind of unprecedented. I think
a tw
o and a half month stretch. Mhm. In Stockholm - straight. I don't think that's happened ...
How does it feel? Mostly, it's delightful.
It's so nice not to ... I haven't been on a plane
in over two months. I miss Hamburg
and my friends and colleagues there. It's strange not to be there
for such a long time. But I have to say it's just so ... ... luxurious not to have to travel. I would love to travel more
because I'm stuck in the studio. And I do these interviews
with our correspondents. Who are
all over the world. But I'm at this one place. I have this one way home and ... That sounds like a dream to me.
To you? I would like to live your life -
for two months. I can't complain. It's wonderful to travel
and I love ... ... being in different cities. Experiencing
different cultures and foods. I have friends all over the world. Orchestras benefit from touring. Yeah. There's an excitement. Why do musicians travel that much? To build your name? Or to get known better? I mean, it is fun. It's
exciting,
it's nice to be asked. If people ask you
to come conduct them, it's ... You know, you can understand
why people want to do it. And enjoy the opportunities. It's a lot of fun. It's exciting to take
an orchestra on the road. It's a huge logistical undertaking.
Yeah. Musicians have to be moved,
instruments ... Music, hotels. Buses, trains. Visas, passports. There's so many things
that have to be thought of. It's complicated
and hugely expensive. Yeah. I actually ... ... think that
there'
s an artistic gain. That comes from
taking an orchestra on tour. Because the challenge
of playing in different halls - we can talk about
what it means to adjust to them. That's an interesting subject. But playing for different audiences, feeling the pressure
of showing yourself at your best. Being compared to the orchestras that are resident in cities you're
visiting or that pass through. If you're going to Carnegie Hall, you know that all the
great orchestras passed through. You're being held t
o ...
Extra tension? Yeah. And orchestras, I think,
grow from being on tour. You tend to play
the same program over and over. If you work on a piece
and get it better and better. That kind of work doesn't happen in the normal week to week schedule
that you do at home. I think there's
an artistic advantage or benefit that comes from touring. And it's also nice, I think,
to share ... the fact that there's
this wonderful cultural entity. If we share it,
it's a kind of ambassadorship. It's a way of
bringing people together. And there are a lot of strong points
of showing shared humanity. And building artistic bridges
with people in far away ... ... countries and cities. I just looked up the history
of the NDR Elbphilharmonie Orchester. It was amazing. They were the first orchestra
going to Russia after the war. And doing a tour to France. As an ambassador. And ... It's moving to see ... To try a new start
after the Second World War, after the Nazis. With this ambassador,
this orchestra. Ye
ah. Show a positive side and ... Show good will. The desire to share something,
make a positive statement. That's very strong. There is pushback,
especially these days. People say:
why should orchestras tour? Tokyo has about nine
professional orchestras - why do you need another one?
Would you go to China now? Right now? With the orchestra? I, you know, it's ... I think it's
a more complicated question than ... I think it deserves
more than a simple answer. Mhm. I would love to be able to ... ..
. go to China
and make the right connections. There was this academy in Shanghai? Yeah, there are strong connections. If it were possible to make an apolitical ... journey ... That's interesting. I think that would be the ideal.
Yeah. To really take all the rhetoric and all the posturing, all
the ideology out of the equation. And just play music. People playing music for others. But is there a chance ...
Is that possible? It's always political ...
It's difficult now. There was a famous trip
that
the New York Philharmonic made. When my mother was still playing,
before I was there. Lorin Maazel was conducting. They traveled to Pyongyang. And they played in North Korea.
Yeah. And there was a concert that ... I think
CNN broadcast live worldwide. From Pyongyang,
the New York Philharmonic playing. It was a very unsual concert -
I was traveling myself. And I happened to be
in the airport lounge and watched part of the concert. And I was very moved
because I saw my mom and my friends. I saw t
he orchestra and ... It was a very unsual atmosphere. Because you could see that
the audience was very formal. Very, very polite. Very still, kind of impassive. Didn't seem to show
a lot of expression on their faces. And I'm not sure
how familiar they were with music or if they knew
what they were going to hear. If they were made to go.
Do you remember the program? They played "An American in Paris". I think they played ... ... some Bernstein. I don't remember everything.
But American music? Yea
h. It was very exciting. My mom and everyone
who was there said: What was fascinating is,
by the end of the concert, they played "Arirang". Which is a Korean ... One of the most important
folk songs. The audience started to cry. And somehow the barrier ... ... that had been there broke down. And everybody was moved, finally. And it became a real connection. I don't know,
given the current political climate, if such a trip would be allowed. Talking about China? About China,
North Korea, anywhere
... Because people are quick to say: If you go there,
then you're implicitely accepting or endorsing
their political system. Obviously, no one was
accepting or endorsing the North Korean political system
when they went there. And the idea was
actually the opposite. The hope was that
there would be some kind of thought. That it would help
diplomatic relations. Hasn't exactly panned out that way. I personally think it was worthwile
and an important gesture. I'm not sure that
cutting of engagement
is the ... ... is the ultimate answer. Mhm. That's a little bit
what people are saying. Yeah. That's what's happened
after Russia invaded Ukraine. There's been
a very, very clear statement. And there were tight bonds,
especially European ... It wasn't even a question. I guess the ... ... real ... ... question is:
where do you draw the line? Because there's no political system
that is flawless. Who makes the decision
at your orchestra? Is it the orchestra,
you or the management? I think it become
s a collective ... ... kind of ... ... consensus. Mhm. At the end of the day,
it's the top management that makes the call. Obviously, when there are things
that are sensitive and are existing in a grey area ... I mean, we're talking
in abstractions, it's difficult to be clear and know
exactly what the right answers are. Because it's not even clear
what the question is. You know, it's not
exactly the same question but ... There have been music competitions that have banned Russian musicians,
youn
g ones. Simply because they're Russian. I think ... ... it's possible that there
may be some justification for that. But for it to be a kind of blanket,
black and white ... ... protocol ... That's a mistake. Because the young musicians are
the ones we don't want to exclude. We hope to continue to have
relations and connections and openness across borders. Musicians should be able to ... ... to play music together
wherever they're from. If you start saying there's
a litmus test that has to be pas
sed in order for a musician
to be allowed to work with you. Who would pass? Yeah. Difficult. You will go to Japan in November? We're going with the orchestra. Yeah, I'm very excited. What does it mean
to go to Japan with this orchestra? Well, I love going to Japan
anytime. My mother is Japanese,
I feel close to the country. I spend a lot of time there. I have a position with the Tokyo
Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra. I'm principal guest conductor there. And it's especially gratifying
to bring my
own orchestra to share what we do in Japan. Is there a difference
between the audiences? Audiences are
absolutely different everywhere. In a way, they're all the same,
but they're also different. There's a different vibe
and people always ... ... comment on Japanese audiences
because they're incredibly quiet. It's almost uncanny. It's strange ... No coughing? We talked about coughing before.
No coughing! But there's a kind of
stillness to the quiet. Even if you're in a quiet hall ... ... in the
States or in Europe, you can feel a kind of vibration. When the conductor walks in
they clap. He turns around ... It's almost terrifiying. And it's weird - you think:
how did that happen? With such a large room
with that quiet. And people who are experiencing it
for the first time might mistake it
for detachment. Actually, Japanese audiences
are passionate. And very knowledgeable. And have very discerning taste. But something in the culture is very, very careful
in that kind of public setting.
So it feels different. What about the programs? Do you have more success
with special programs in Japan? That's kind of a pet peeve of mine. In Japan, the programming
is very conservative, in my opinion. There are very specific ideas that Japanese presenters have
about what orchestras should play. Mhm. Both visiting orchestras
who come on tour to Japan but also the Japanese orchestras. It's like a running joke
when I'm planning programs. 'Cause you hear
the New World Symphony, Tchaikovsky's No.
5. Beethoven's No. 7. Over ... "Pictures At An
Exhibition", over and over. Why? I don't know. It's like this - I don't know -
brand name. If it has a famous name,
it must be good. It's, it's ... It's kind of reflexively timid,
the way they make choices. I think it's unnecessary. When you play different things
and show daring in your program it's always appreciated,
it always works. But somehow the first impulse
is to be very careful. It happens that we're playing
a lot of German music when we go
to Japan. Do you know what you're gonna play
this year? Brahms' symphonies. Part of that is that we're
not bringing the full orchestra with big percussion,
lots of brass. So that works very well. And it's also something
that we play exceptionally well, with a special understanding
and insight. So it's nice to do that. But it's ... I find it hard
to program in Japan often. Because there's such expectations
about what you should play. Mhm. Part of what I wanna do when I
bring things is to shake t
hings up. Contemporary music you bring, too? Absolutely. Yeah. And this works
with totally fresh stuff? Sure! Absolutely. But I'm not sure
that they think that it will work. It's the same phenomenon
that happens everywhere, but it's particularly pronounced
in Japan. Does it reflect the idea or
relationship to Western culture in a way? That's a very interesting question. Japanese folk songs? We're talking about travel,
you know? Yeah. But when you come
with an orchestra ... My father brought once
a record from Japan. He was a scientist
and brought me folk songs from Japan. And I didn't understand
the music at all. I liked to listen to it. And then I see the joy Japanese
people have listening to Beethoven. And I can't make the connections. No, it's
a very interesting question. Because it's not unrelated to certain topics
of cultural imperialism. And ... ... identity. I have mixed feelings about it
because it's a shame that the long traditions
and the local culture is not ... ... so prese
nt. If you go to Tokyo, it feels like an extremely modern,
advanced Western city. And we say Western, that's
already a loaded term. Yeah. Hopefully, I can get away
with saying it. It could be like London -
I mean, it's a bit different. Could be Shanghai or New York. But then there are Japanese
buildings and architectural details. And you'll see something
that could only be in Japan. And this mixture of
sort of local and imported is ... ... creates a very unusual
and delicate balance. It's one of
the narratives
about Japan that you hear over and over: Japan is very good at
taking on imported things. Improving them
and doing them their way. Like the trains? Trains or ... Yeah. You know, whatever. That is really true
and people mostly would think: That's a good point -
that's a nice thing about Japan. But there's
a side of that discussion that becomes a little dark
and not so comfortable for me. When the assumption is:
Everything is sort of taken on and it's not really
deeply felt or unde
rstood. Mhm. It's like an imitation. Yeah. There's a kind of sense often
and you hear this ... ... in Europe and the States: Well, they're good,
but it's just ... They don't really understand it,
they're just very good at imitating. I think that's ... ... racist. And unfair. Because people approach music
a little bit differently. Based on their backgrounds
by definition. Mhm. And to think that just
because someone is Asian ... ... they can't play Mozart with true understanding. Yeah. It's just w
rong. We have ... ... many examples
which prove the opposite. I think. And the idea,
maybe I mentioned it before, the idea that music
can withstand interpretation. And doesn't have to be done
the way that - call it the people
who wrote it or ... Because even people - say Mozart -
even people in Austria today are not coming from the exact
same place that Mozart did. Yeah. They're also changed,
the whole culture has changed. And Brahms composed his stuff
in Austria. Also. Anyway, this is ... How d
o we always get on these ...
I don't know. I think it's about ...
to bring culture. This idea of an orchestra traveling. Yeah. And it's a very interesting time
because ... Some people say:
why do we need to hear that? What's important about that? I mean, it's a highly developed
wonderful art form. And it doesn't mean
it's the only thing. For me, it happens to be what I do,
so it is what I can offer. I can't offer something else. So you ... ... will travel the coming years
a lot like now? Or do y
ou think you will reduce it? I've consciously been trying
to reduce the amount of travel I do. You know what it's like -
your trip now ... Cancelled flight, strikes ... For me, it's an adventure. Adventures are great
until they become boring hardships. No, I love to travel and I ... I get a bit impatient sometimes
when I'm in one place for too long. Although I'm
not feeling that now. Mhm. I still have several weeks left
of my stay in Stockholm. But I've consciously tried
to reduce the amount of
travel I do. Just because of
the wear and tear on the system, but also maybe
it's better not to fly so much. To keep the carbon footprint
from going too bananas. So that's really ... That's
why I took the position here. So I'm ... Hamburg and the opera are my two places
that I'm doing distinctly. It's considerably
less guest connecting. But environment is ... ... a subject you think about? Orchestras are talking about it
all the time and they should be. Some have decided not to fly. And there's
some musicians,
colleagues I have, who are not gonna fly. That's a personal choice. We thought about coming by train. Yeah, I would love
to take the train. Unfortunately, the train connection
between Stockholm and Hamburg is not really practical. They have this night thing?
The night train, I've taken it. I would do it everytime if I could. But the last time
the train was so hot. Okay. It was unbearably hot. It was unpleasant,
I couldn't sleep. Even just in a T-shirt
you were dripping in sweat.
And there was nothing to do. There was something wrong
with the systems. If it were comfortable, I could
sleep and go to rehearsal. Yeah. But you're suffering and then have
to work - it's just not practical. The bottom line is
that everything we do creates some sort of impact
on the environment. You have to decide
where your personal tolerance is. Where you draw the line and say: This, I'm not gonna do because it's too much impact
on the environment. For me and a lot of people -
we continue to t
ravel but mindfully. Maybe not as much as we used to. What do you think?
Should orchestras keep touring? Difficult question. Yes, maybe not necessarily too much. But ... Maybe not ... ... constantly on the road. Maybe every two years
a tour to Europe. Not every year
or the other way around. But I would say yes. I feel a bit bad
because of the carbon footprint but yeah, this is what I ... There's no perfect answer. You're just like all of us ... Yeah, don't feel bad.
We know that it's not ideal b
ut ... I still think that the benefit
outweighs the negative side. It's so important to ... It's good not to essentially
create even harder borders. Yeah. Between people and countries. Okay. Well, I'll see you
here and there? Yeah. In some city around the world.
Thank you, yeah. Thank you that we could visit you
and you gave me the chance to travel. You're welcome. Anytime. I don't think we've answered any
questions, but we've asked a lot. Yeah, but it's difficult
to answer questions. Copyright
Subtitles: NDR 2023
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