welcome to the Asam Muhammad podcast today we
have with us Ahmed Al Ahmed was born and raised in Gazza and I'm very excited to be talking
with him today um my brother from another father actually because it's my dad who's also
from RZA um so we will talk all about obviously you growing up um and then what's happening in
Israel today and just wanted to thank you so much for your time Ahmed thank you so much for joining
us here today thanks for the opportunity pleased to be here so let's star
t off um by what was it
like growing up in hza we're all hearing all of these conflicting stories all the time media
wants to give one image you know everybody's giving whatever image they want to give now you
told us that you left in 2005 so that's I guess just as Hamas were moving in so just tell us a bit
about your childhood um and any maybe interactions that you had with Hamas and if they were part of
the reason why you left or you know just just tell us about young Ahmed certainly well
thanks again
yes mean and um thanks all for joining so I grew up going back back and forth for a small part of
my childhood in um between Gaza and Saudi Arabia actually my dad was a physician in Saudi Arabia as
is common with a lot of Palestinians professionals Engineers doctors nurses teachers and so I left
in 2005 I was 15 um it was part of a US exchange program it was a post 911 initiative to improve
the cultural ties between the United States and the Arab and Muslim world so was uh the
idea was
you come here as a a high school uh teenager you go you go to a local high school you live with a
US host family and then you know you experience the life in the United States um yes lots of
Palestinians in Saudi and then you return to your native land and hopefully build cultural
Bridges upon attempting to return in 2006 Hamas had already won the infamous parli parliamentary
elections in the spring of 20 six I was in Egypt you know for gazin before or after the second
inapa the
airport the shortlived airport was destroyed and so the only way that you could
actually enter AA for the majority of gazin is you had to land in Egypt and then take a taxi or a
cab all the way from Cairo across the Sinai desert or Sinai Peninsula Northern Sinai to the rafat
border crossing I was in Egypt trying to cross in but Hamas had um uh done a military operation
that abducted the Israeli so Soldier gilad Shalit in in June of 2006 and this was followed up by the
2006 33-day war betwee
n Lebanon between Hezbollah and Lebanon and Israel so I was in Egypt unable
to return and there were also threats against the program that I participated in it was an even
though cultural exchange programs have been around for years it was somewhat of a novel idea in a
Gaza Palestinian context to send young kids to the West if you will and so kind of generalized
uh uh uh dangers coupled with specific threats that I I thought were were going to potentially
materialize led to me returning to
the US thanks to the help of a lot of friends in um my us mom
I call her she's neither Palestinian nor Arab or Muslim and even a a holocaust Survivor actually
Who helped finance my return um to the United States and I came here settled in the Bay Area
applied for political Asylum status while I was finishing High School it was actually a height
of irony that the very day that I had my Asylum interview was June 14 2007 which is the day that
Hamas took over um kind of bolstering my case I was
one of the first wave of pal iians to receive
asylum in the United States um due to hamas's control so stepping back a little bit going back
to what your your question was about you know growing up in Wasa which obviously you know I've
I've I left what coming up on 18 19 years ago so uh in 19 years I should say in in July 2nd of this
year nevertheless I've kept close contact with my immediate and extended family most of whom are in
God I as that to me was not an onoff button just because I
lived in the United States and um you
know the funny thing is because I don't have much of an accent people think that I'm so Americanized
and so out of touch and it's like it's so there's no winning it's like if I if I had an accent
then people wouldn't anyway we we'll talk about the accent stuff in a second um but so no I've
absolutely kept in contact with I've um you know I've my my my siblings I have two brothers and two
sisters um and they're all married I'm the black Chief I'm the yo
ungest I'm the only one who's
not married the only one who's not doesn't have kids the only one who doesn't have children uh
so sorry the only one who's not in the medical field I meant to say um I went into uh business
and international relations and politics I'm I'm an abject failure by Palestinian standards and
so multiple things were and are true or I should say were true through up to let's talk about like
October 7th of course Reza has always kind of been somewhat isolated um surround
ed by Israel on all
sides and it was not as open as different parts of the West Bank were and then by Egypt on the other
zda Society is is is a little bit different than um the Palestinian folks in the West Bank um and
I'm talking about subcultures nevertheless even with the inata even with the violence even with
the hardships and misery there was a lot of beauty there were a lot of beautiful places and moments
and people adapt and people persevere and people make beautiful memories I mean
you even look at
images of Gaza before October 7th and there were beautiful restaurants and beautiful areas and
beautiful parks and and the beaches were all was full of life and and and it was an escape
as people were all also experiencing hardships became Aid dependent lived in crowded unsanitary
conditions so like multiple things can be true at once it is also true that a large number of Goins
have never actually left the coastal Enclave the trip so so um the idea is a lot of Gins are and
though social media and online connectivity has has changed quite a bit of that um for a lot of
people so for me growing up in in in and again I I so I was actually born in Saudi even though
our family kept moving back and forth I lived a few years of my life in Saudi but every year we
would go in twice and then in 96 and 97 we moved back to GZA and then we moved back to Saudi and
finally in 2000 my dad was like kalas we're we're moving for back permanently so the 90s was an
incredible ti
me of optimism due to the Oslo uh process and and there was also so azda was a lot
more open um with Israel than it is now or than after the second andar for example a couple of
times we access GDA through Jordan so we would travel through Israel and then access through the
ARs Crossing and I remember that in my experience being far more pleasant than having to go through
the Rafa border crossing so um I'll stop there but uh here but but I I I'll just share one last
thing which is that um G
DA I mean I in a weird way even during the blockade even during hamas's
control the contradiction is that it also actually evolved and developed in different way like like
resa's first Mall came online in 201 um10 and a lot of you know businesses I mean Hamas ironically
invested in Leisure and and and and like retail businesses as both a way to bring about like
different sources of revenue but there were also just economic Evolution and economic growth
while the blockade was happening yeah
I mean it is amazing how people can persevere despite you
know everything that is going on around them you know life prevails Beauty prevails Joy prevails
um my dad would go back and forth to hza all the time constantly you know he tried to get us to
go um always telling us about how beautiful it is there sharing with us images of he loved the
dubka and he really loved to um get involved and and uh you know watch people um dance and sing and
um there's a lot of art going on there's a lot of
um um like theater um in music and things like
that so he he was always very involved in those kinds of things and and trying he really wished
and hoped that Aza would one day be what it was when he was growing up um and as I you know I've
said so many times since October 7th I'm kind of glad that he never got to see what has become of
his homeland today because he really did hold out hope that that one day um you know RZA could
be free and and independent and you know he would see men and
women living freely and you know
civil liberties and everything well and and that's actually part of like what I've been pushing
for is that um people there is very much so this pervasive narrative which so again multiple
things can be true at once while it is true that there have been numerous Israeli policies that
I think have hindered rda's prospects I think the failure to acknowledge the role of people
like Hamas in in destroying any prospects Forda becoming a hub of Palestinian art cu
lture Economic
Development it overlooks the Mediterranean it can have an amazing Seaport for trade it can have an
airport like it once did it can have inner kind of Commerce with both Egypt and Israel so what
I have been pushing for is you know to to to go beyond just this incessant insistence that only
because Israel or because of Israel Reza hasn't reached its full potential I strongly believe
based on detailed information and Analysis and understanding of the history and having lived
th
ere and having family who are not just on the periphery of events having extended family who
are actually involved in all sectors ofda society different decisions could have been made that
would have allowed GDA to be free prosperous and and and developed and I will also say just about
the point of of uh it's not just economic or uh political Liberties it's also about social and and
and and like societal Liberties and I mean so so I come from a Muslim family um a very religious
Muslim famil
y my family is still religious even though I am not um religious or um so and I I have
all sorts of I mean I grew up in in Saudi Arabia I'll tell you a little bit about the I went to
like I went to like religious instruction schools and and it was a deeply traumatic experience and
even nowadays Saudi has has evolved but GZA in the 60s and 70s and even early 80s was incredibly
open I mean yeah my my there are pictures of like my family members and my mom and and my aunts and
and skirts and a
nd like dresses and and and there were bars there was like there was social Liberty
not in just the shallow like let me dress up as I but there was an actual like multifaceted way
in which people conducted themselves in which there was political diversity like you know
and it was truly during the mid 80s with the islami the Islamic complex where the the Muslim
Brotherhood started islamized the society where there were the infamous asset attacked where there
was this idea that somehow our pr
oblem isn't you hear this probably and and you know this this is
the cliche in that in the Arab and Muslim world is well our problem is because we departed away
from our religion so by going back to the religion Islam Islam is the solution and and again I say
this with all due respect to people who practice the Muslim faith who practice their beliefs in a
the way that they see fit but the political Islam islamism as expressed by the early founders of
the Muslim Brotherhood and then as kind
of lived and and iterated by these islamist groups um had
a deeply detrimental impact on Palestinian Society in Gaza in Gaza in particular and so that's that's
where Hamas you know start had its Origins is is in and and and yes they did a lot of Charities
obviously like that's how that's what built that they exactly same in in in Egypt and so that kind
of that time was the foundation I would say for a lot of the mess that we find ourselves in in terms
of and narrowing in political and relig
ious and societal freedoms that has led to the violent
extremism as expressed by Hamas contemporarily yeah you know it's so that story is so common
you know that same story could be told like you said about Egypt it could be told about Tunisia it
could be told about Algeria it could be told about Yemen like it's just all it was like this ripple
effect it started with the um Iranian Revolution started with the Islamic regime taking over there
and then it just spread like wildfire throughout
the Muslim majority World these islamists feeling
empowered like that like you said Islam you know but it's it's not that they really care about
Islam or religion or anything like that these are political opportunists that want to hijack
the they they just use religion as the the tool for them to get into political power and so what
they did yeah and somebody in the comment said Syria absolutely Syria as well um and so what they
did in Gazza is the same thing that has happened happened in s
o many countries around the world
but when people look at hza today and they look at the the conflict with Israel um it's exactly
what you were just saying like there's more than one thing can be true at the same time right but
they just want to blame everything on Israel even when I talk about the fact that you know RZA was
independent you know what I mean like they were they were like you said better decisions could
have been made you know what I mean it's it's easier for us maybe um to s
elf- criticize you know
I think that when you're from there and these are your you you feel angry like you feel resentful
I feel I'm just like frustrated you know like like you were mentioning the beautiful beaches
like there's so much opportunity this could have been this could have gone so well you know and
we really messed this up step by step and then consistently like kept on going with messing it
up it's not like we just messed it up and then stopped you know and it's it's very frustr
ating
to and I and I don't I although I do believe there are many things that are true and there are
many reasons and lots of things are true at the same time but I'm pissed off at our people I mean
absolutely it's spoton I understand I mean again Israel made decisions as well that contributed
to this I get that that's indisputable that's a fact but yeah the unwillingness to take any
responsibility and accountability and I hate to say it you you had a beautiful book about it
some of this I
think was enabled by supposed allies and and and and Advocates and and and
even analysts who consistently absolved Hamas of any responsibility and made made them out
to be this organic expression of resistance to injustices when in fact Hamas is a nefarious
political actor that uses religion that has held its people effectively hostages people got
mad when I wrote that article for Newsweek about how Hamas effectively used like like there
might be Israeli propaganda about the hostage be you
know Hamas using people as hostages but
there's a lot of truth to that and how it's it people in Reza will tell you people in Reza
will tell you that we have had no say in how our future is determined and instead a narrow
group based in Qatar based in tahan based in in in Lebanon are deciding our future for us and
I'll go back to the different priorities and and decisions that could have been made I mean I was
intimately involved in numerous projects public and behind the scenes and effort
s and discussions
with people including with Israelis and including with people in senior political and Military
um uh establishments who genuinely wanted to see something different happen in GZA and all it
would have taken were some decisions by Hamas to commit to a longterm a 10 to 15E truce to commit
to releasing the bodies of the dead soldiers that were killed in res in 2014 or the two mentally
challeng individuals that walked into GZA one was as an African migrant Inu and then another
one is an Arab beduin and Hamas wanted to trade them for thousands of prisoners when again there
was a willingness a genuine willingness and even money on standby by numerous Arab countries to
let Gazza become it might not have been the Paris or Singapore of the Mediterranean but it could
have been a different place the other thing too is that and I'm sorry like this these simplistic
reductionist views about the victimhood narrative about the colonized colon or colonizer the
oppressed or o
ppressors that's not to say Israel hasn't oppressed Palestinians it absolutely
has but there is this you know Western leftist Le simp oversimplification of the Dynamics and I
think unfortunately a lot of well-intentioned allies have have have worsened the situation
and have made you know I I I wrote yesterday on Twitter that diaspora politics are incredibly
toxic because there are so like more Palestinians in Palestine or in Gaza are much more willing to
criticize Hamas and to criticize the
failures of the Palestinian political leadership than there
than there's willingness in the West in the free and open Western Society I can understand to
a certain extent maybe why people in GZA might have a hard time criticizing Hamas after all it's
not safe it's difficult there's forced Conformity there's propaganda there is brainwashing there
is you're caught up in your daily survival but what really upsets me deeply are those either
Palestinians or their allies in the west who have hav
e the safety have the ability to express their
opinions perpetuating a lot of those simplistic reductionist slogans and Views about resistance
and about you know we are just this Perpetual victim that you know can do no wrong all means
necessary International and there's this belief that international law grants the occupied the
right to resistance but there's this inability to distinguish between what is legitimate versus
what is effective versus what is moral versus what is right so I I s
hare your frustration and that is
precisely why I decided to speak out after October 7th even though it's incredibly uncomfortable
and you you know firsthand what people do when you deviate from the established narrative yeah
absolutely um I want to go back to what you were talking about these Western allies and and how
they're not helping us you know what frustrates me the most right now is seeing them all pretending
that they care about resins all in the streets with their slogans and the
ir signs but when the
resin had that we want to live campaigns who gave a [ __ ] about them then who paid attention to
them then nobody they never cared they never cared about the lesins when the lesins were fighting
against Hamas right when they were saying like look at the look at our unemployment rates look
at our suicide rates look at all of the we we just want to live can you imagine like it it was so
that's their to have the slogan of their campaign to be we want to live you just know
how desperate
things were and nobody paid attention to them they got zero media coverage no one was interested but
now when it's against Israel suddenly everybody is really paying attention to them and that's
how you know that this is just so opportunistic it's not because you care about resin right it's
because you care about hating on Israel the same way that you just wanted to and this is a nice
opportunity so I want to talk about that because let me ask you this go go ahead now you go
ahead
cuz I want to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to set the whole stage for you and then I want
you to to answer this whole thing for me so for decades I think Palestinians have been used as
ponds I just described how they're being used by ponds in the west and you described before how
they're being used ponds by The islamists Who are just trying to you know Islam trying to have their
Global caliphate you know what I mean so whether it's East or West they're being used you know
on f
or for different NE whatever their purpose is whatever their goal is not for what is best for
the people of razza ever right that's not the main that's not their their their their main goal here
um so I want to ask you now as an authentic voice as a man from Raza what are they getting wrong
what do you want the world to know and how are you seeing this so what I was going to say earlier
to your point is I mean the protests that that we want to live like there were they happened in 2019
main
ly but there were also ones in 2017 and they happened in July of 2023 just like three months
before October 7 so that's right but we don't even have to go that back that far during the war about
two months ago there were protests in RA andun in southern Gaza spontaneous at un Refugee centers um
where the displaced people just organically just marched with white flags and signs sayy stop the
War release the hostages we want to live end it I cannot tell you how disturbing it was to see one
of
three things either people were complete ZIP they said nothing they didn't acknowledge them in
the slightest or Worse people said oh these must be paid Israeli agents these must be how are they
protesting Under Fire I mean so that tells you everything you need to no like oh listen to the
gazis listen to the gazin represent their voice well the Gins are spe they're saying like please
see not just like peace fire in the like the empty slogan and believe me half of my family are dead
I want t
his war to stop right this second but these empty ceasefire slogans like it's like what
does that even mean like ceasefire and release the hostages ceasefire and return to the status quo
ceasefire and Hamas gets to be back in control of Gins for another 10 years and and you know waiting
for the next War so I've been pushing people like be specific pair calls for ceasefires for the
release of hostages actually provide a vision and most importantly acknowledge the people in Gaza
who want this
war to end right now and who are telling you we've had enough we're done with Hass
and yet people don't want to acknowledge that so that's what's so frustrating is is there's a lack
of unwillingness to condemn Hamas in an organic self-initiated way such that we have to wait for
Piers Morgan to go on his show and be like start his show with do you condemn Hamas or not and
people have a fit when he does that but so going back to your question to the Allies I mean I I I
mean I I'm not dismiss
ing the authenticity of many people's feelings and and thoughts and beliefs
so I mean people are horrified what's taking place is awful I I I genuinely don't dismiss the
humanity but behind what motivates a lot of um a lot of people who who who are protesting for GM
even though they're absolute opportunists and grifters I mean people you know look at someone
like Jackson Hinkle who had like half a million followers and now he has two and a half million
followers and has all these subscriber
s or that snake doctor from Sweden or all these other
creatures online or or the islamist in London who are ra largely irrelevant all of a sudden
there you know or a certain somebody who just converted to Islam and then the next day he
started a fundraiser like yeah it is so clear abundantly in face like this the people are riding
the Gaza wave to enrich themselves collect likes and shares whatever but that's one group I'm I
don't care about those people those people are irredeemable they m
ean nothing to me what I care
about addressing the well-intentioned folks who I genuinely believe are a large number of those who
are upset they might have limited information they might just be horrified by the constant scenery
and they're also walking in on a war without having understood a lot of the contextual history
and politics it's like to those well-intentioned folks I say please understand how Hamas the Li
Liber sabotaged an imperfect and fragile yet viable Oslo Peace process that
gave gazin IDs and
a promise of a sea port that was being built and an airport I flew can you imagine saying this just
what I'm just saying I flew into Gaza in 99 and in 2000 I flew into Gaza Gaza had an airport what it
gave Palestinians an industrial Zone near the Aras Zone um where thousands of people were were were
make it half of Gaza was was built by either money from day laborers or Pal the industrial zone
or the the the economic Prosperity that came about in the 90s please understan
d the leadership
failures of even aret I I I mean arett yeser arat was was was super corrupt and super detrimental he
was a disaster for the Palestinians in the 70s in Jordan and in the 80s with in Lebanon and and in
the 90s with Kuwait and standing up you know um with Saddam against the the the Kuwaiti people
who have hosted Palestinians and finance the Palestinian cause the only thing that I will say
about aat and he made a disastrous decision not to accept the 2000 cam David um peace pea
ce proposal
he nevertheless made a courageous decision that I think set a good precedent which is actually
recognizing Israel recognizing in its right to exist ultimately recognizing the futility of armed
resistance even though he then basically launched the second in tata after the aiel Chiron visit
to uh the the axam mosque in in 2000 in September 28th 2000 I remember I was in resda I remember
when we were let go of school and all hell broke loose and he tried to have a d game towards the
end it was a dirty game and he failed he basically thought he could control Hamas and then he thought
he could use Hamas to pressure Israel and Hamas became a monster that grew out of control yeah
please understand those those Dynamics please understand that Hamas basically helped militarize
the ined didn't want that he thought he could use it to extract concessions from the Israelis Hamas
with their suicide bombings and their terrible uh violence against Israeli civilians and the further
islamization of the society destroyed prospects for for for peace for for Palestinian State how
about the 2005 withdrawal of settlements and I know people are like well of course Israel
maintained control of the air and the nearby land it wasn't as if GDA all of a sudden became
this wholly independent country nevertheless it was a historic opportunity to try and develop GDA
turn it into a model for successful governance of a future and an incoming Palestinian state to
show that this is wha
t we're capable of that we are smart talented intelligent people if the
West Bank is vacated from from settlements this is what we're going to do this is what we're
going to build and instead Hamas was like Hamas literally all those open areas the the former
liberate they call them liberated settlements became training grounds for them to to increase
the range of their missiles for them to develop mottor shells for them to develop these IEDs
and and and and and and and and other militant ac
tivities how about the 200 2006 elections I
mean Hamas opposed the oso peace process it was treason it was cowardly it was awful they didn't
like it they called it all sorts of names they were treacherous blah blah blah but then it used
the PO basically it accessed elections that were built upon the Oslo Peace framework that brought
up brought about the Palestinian Authority and kind of created this this legislative and and
and and and other Palestinian governance bodies on the Palestinian
territories so Hamas used a
political process based upon the very framework peace framework and and negotiations with Israel
and acknowledging Israel using the very framework that it criticized thinking it's going to now
become a government while also being a resistance group so by doing so Hamas delegitimized
the elections they destroyed uh basically they brought about sanctions on the Palestinian
government and that led to all sorts of quality of life issues people's salaries couldn't be
paid and then Hamas started basically wanting to entrench its control and that led to a Min civil
War effectively with the Palestinian Authority in fat leading to the 2007 takeover and then the
2008 War and the 2014 War which like I can go on and on but please to those good people who
love the Palestinian people fine like criticize Israel all you want but you cannot honestly
and sincerely support the Palestinian people without not only condemning Hamas and and even the
Palestinian Authorit
y with their own failures um which we can talk about later it is disingenuous
and dishonest to keep the focus on Israel and to absolve Hamas of its mass responsibility for
the death of gazin for the destruction I mean how many times is the International Community
going to keep pumping billions of dollars into GZA to rebuild it only for Hamas to take PE drag
people along suicidal Adventures like and and and turning Gins into a dependent people I mean
we're smart talented intelligent capable
people we do not need to live off of unra for the rest
of our lives we do not need the Western world or the Arab world to give us food handouts we can
survive on our own if given good leadership and an opportunity to not have War so like that's what
I encourage people to think about is criticizing Hamas isn't just the moral and right thing to do
exposing them and and and and helping like giving a hand up to the Palestinian people and voices
that want a different future that is actually how
you could be most effective and helpful for
the Palestinian people because let me tell you something Israel isn't going anywhere okay Israel
is not South Africa there is no dismantling I want to see the end of the occupation the military
occupation of the Westbank I want to see equal rights for the Palestinian people I want to
see peaceful coexistence even though that's going to happen in phases I want to see access
to Jerusalem and equal distribution of resources nevertheless Israel is her
e to stay you cannot
delegitimize Israel just by hoping that H you know which is hamas's strategy it's hoping that
Israel kills enough the more Israel Hass thinks kills Palestinians the more there's a chance
to delegitimize Israel and to Embark upon the South Africa model um and that's not going to
happen so please please recognize and I'll I'll conclude with this please recognize that you're
not betraying the Palestinian people by condemning Hamas and understanding just how destructive
th
ey are you are genuinely helping them you are sincerely empowering voices in RDA that don't
have the safety you have in the west to think freely to see things from a distance to openly you
know addressed the facts on the ground and that's what I'm hoping with by by speaking out I'm not
just building you know this is uncomfortable but I I I genuinely think we have a responsibility
in the western world and the Allies I think we have a a moral and a karmic duty to help those
Palestinian voices
beautiful 100% agree with you I find it so condescending how they always want to
paint husand people as these little victims that are that can't do anything on their own and what
you know Palestinians are throughout the world I mean you just talked about your own family and
how they're all in the medical field they're all doctors and you're not and so they're like they
oh how could you enter business or any other field other than medicine do you know what I mean
Palestinians are capable pe
ople everywhere on the planet why can't they be capable in their homeand
but they have this impression they have this idea of them now as these little victims that of course
they're going to start raping as Israeli women and killing Israeli babies what else are they
going to do they had no other options how dare you talk about people like that how dare you how
you know my my my father's biggest thing that he would always say I mean it's you he would swear at
Hamas you know and and then curs
e them and then be angry at the fact that they were the face of RZA
when you said RZA it was like son anous with Hamas that hurt him so much you know like your Homeland
that you love so much is synonymous with these terrorists and then they're being uplifted that
is like you said that's the subtitle of my book how Western liberals andow radical Islam they are
being uplifted by these people here in the west they are uplifting the people that you know they
have been terrorizing the people of
razza for all of these years and now they've just expanded their
terrorism into Israel and people are are wanting to say that they're Freedom Fighters and their
resistance and they're this and that it's like they have always been terrorists you know what I
mean don't try and paint them into something else that they that they never were and that they never
will be you know everything that you said is is absolutely true and I and I would add to that
too that it's not even just this conflict b
ut people need to take a step back too and see how
this is happening all over the world all over the Middle East North Africa this isn't just Israel
and Hamas this isn't you know a little you know this is just a microcosm of the larger problem
you know why is Iran funding Hamas right why what is the connection here because it's all related
because these are all these islamist groups that are all wanting to create this Global caliphate
and people don't want to see that like you said they jus
t want to simplify it into a really easy
oppressor oppressed you know victim and and um uh oppressor and and then that's it right and
it is dehumanizing honestly it's dehumanizing for the resident people to constantly be talking
about them like that and and it's condescending now I want to talk about something that you were
involved in and something that I was really glad to see that you were able to bring to fruition
um you were one of the first people to start talking about the humanitari
an drops this idea
of dropping the the humanitarian Aid directly to the people of razza basically circumventing
Hamas who were um you know in the beginning of course the aid was what do you do with the aid
you give it to the leaders and then it's the leaders responsibility to disseminate it amongst
the people but they weren't disseminating anything they were selling it uh they were selling things
that have big huge labels on them that say not for sale exactly and they're they're selling it
so
they're basically as they've always been doing they they're just opportunists taking advantage
of the lesen people they never cared about them um so these humanitarian drops would reach people
directly and of course there was you know some setbacks there were some uh devastating results
there were some parachutes that didn't um open and some some things like that but you know all in all
I think it's been a very positive thing um I want to talk about that though because there's so much
c
onflicting information and I I'm starting to get confused so number my first question is is Israel
blocking any humanitarian Aid to get to the resen people that's my first question um my second
question is why am I seeing videos of residence showing us their Sharma and saying we have all
this great food we don't need your dry ramen noodles that you're dropping from the sky you know
like what what what's what's going on here I'm seeing people that are supposedly eating grass and
then other p
eople are saying no it's m um I just you know I saw trucks of Egyptian truckers their
trucks being destroyed and the driv being attacked talk to me about this whole air drop thing and and
that that whole humanitarian Aid scenario what's going on there sure so there's there's a lot there
but I I'll try to be concise about every one of those points you raised um number one is multiple
things again are true at once there is Israeli red tape there are obstacles that have hindered the
free and u
ninterrupted flow of Aid there's also the fact that Israel is in fact allowing a lot
of like those protesters you see on the Israeli side they've worked in blocking some Aid trucks
but for the most part Aid continues to flow in there's also something that's uncomfortable that
people don't want to acknowledge which is that I mean Israel is effectively at war with Gaza
they say there were there were were with Hamas but really it's a war with this region and Israel
isn't during a war that it's
trying to basically pressure Hamas into releasing the hostages and
and and kind of stepping back from its stated goal of continued armed resistance and continued
attacks and we're going to rearm it like like I'm not saying it's right I'm not saying it's more but
like it's almost understandable like why Israel isn't going to be the main tap for Aid coming into
the Gaza STP the International Community had to scramble after October 7th when Israel shut off
all the aid that was coming in almos
t exclusively through the K Shalom Crossing to now funnel it
through Egypt but then having to do the inspection and by the way to be clear I am for inspecting
Aid I don't want a single piece of Weaponry or ammunition like I am Mr security I have a
degree in international in National Security and intelligence like I know how this stuff works like
I am absolutely not opposed to security measures but there's very much so a bureaucratic process
involved that does delay a lot of a lot of um Aid
going in there's also damaged infrastructure
there's also feeds there's also hamas's theft of Aid that was so chronic Hamas doesn't also just
steal Aid by grabbing it off of trucks coming in they have a whole set of schemes whereby some of
sometimes they'll hoard it in certain warehouses sometimes they'll go to warehouses at night and
siphon It Off sometimes they have some of their own people acting as civilians and then they go
in and loot the trucks sometimes they for those armed guys tha
t you see on top of trucks these are
on top of you know Vehicles bringing in Aid these are Hamas policemen who haven't been been paid
for months so they come up with these schemes with truck drivers or with humanitarian NOS to say
all right well we'll protect some of your trucks but you're going to give me some of this Aid and
then they'll take some of this Aid they'll sell it they'll bring it back to the Hamas Fighters
there's a whole whole network of schemes that you know tck people aren'
t going to understand
on Tik toks or 280 characters in in Twitter that said the airdrops Were Meant to bypass Hamas
bypass the damage infrastructure to avoid the concentration of people being in a singular
location we've seen these apocalyptic scenes of one or two trucks comes in and it's just swarmed
by thousands of people and the idea is when you do this firste air drops you reduce the likelihood of
these crazy you know stampedes or these you know these dehumanizing scenes that's what the
y are
there's these dehumanizing scenes of desperate civilians mainly and especially in the north
so there are absolutely hunger and famine like conditions and parts of the north which is cut off
you know by by a a a long call it belt if you will of Israeli ground troops um from the rest ofda
the south is where most of the aid that like 99% of the Aid comes in so again multiple things are
also true there are markets in GDA there are some places that have some shaera they have some food
in
the South but that doesn't mean that hunger and crises don't exist in the north there's also
food but who can afford it because everything now is 100x more expensive so what has been and and
and you know hundreds of people have been killed trying to access Aid trying to access some of the
food uh in in in in in the North in particular but five people lose their lives tragically through
a malfunctioning parachute and the whole world is like oh my God these airdrops are the worst thing
what h
as been incredibly frustrating are these and I I call them today and I'm I I've been holding
back holding back because NGS do important work we need their help but there is absolutely an
entrenched NGO Industrial complex that some of whom have actually worked with Hamas in the past
and almost normalized working with Hamas instead of exposing Hamas and and and just engaging
them the the bare minimum to get things done and instead now they had open meetings and working
relationships with Hama
s and and allowed Hamas to absolve itself from providing for its people and
allowed Hamas to turn gazin into Aid dependent subjects and Aid Reliant people when when Hamas
should have been making different choices so that there's no blockade so that there's no so there's
true Economic Development so the a drops are helpful they're a drop in the bucket I get that I
never said they're temp a permanent solution but they were meant to augment inadequate distribution
and delivery Hamas hates air
drops they despise it and I have numerous sources I like I'm not going
to point you to like a singular statement where Hamad said said we I mean Hamas has said oh these
are inadequate we we don't think they're enough whatever but behind the scenes on the ground Etc
Hamas not only hates them they've Unleashed their cyber Warriors to do the disgusting things of
throwing the aid in the garbage to say oh we don't need you to make it seem like gazans are
ungrateful because Hamas can't make money
off of aird dropped Aid it's not enough for them
to steal it and to control it so there's this bizarre unspoken Alliance it's not and I don't
mean they are literally an alliance but it's a def facto alliance between Hamas not wanting Aid
because they can't steal it they can't tax it they can't distribute it to their people Hamas can't
be everywhere at once they can't grab the food from everybody's hands when it lands and NOS who
some of whom are well-meaning whatever but some of whom they'
re like well we want to be part of
the distribution we want to be on that they don't also want the aid and they think it's political
stunt and blah blah blah it's been so frustrating because you know what tens of thousands of Goins
have benefited from these air drops so don't sit here in your Western capital and tell me well this
is not enough all right fine it's not enough but it's ceire it's something but but but they're
like well we want a ceasefire this goes back to the useless like all
right well you're just going
to call for a ceas like what does that even mean like I want a ceasefire but Hamas keeps rejecting
a ceasefire Hamas keeps rejecting any proposals to release the hostages I mean and we're talking
about releasing women and and elderly and and and and and injured Israelis but okay going back
to the again the main thing to keep in mind is we need to flood Gaza with Aid through land
through sea through the air the diversification of delivery not only helps more aid
from a quantity
point of view but it also ensures that you don't have this concentrated stream that is easy to
piler steal and loot by Hamas or criminal gangs the unfortunate thing with the Egyptian truck
drivers the tragedy and I have a brother who's involved in a lot of the humanitarian um delivery
networks and and I have many friends who are involved in that in that world in right now and
they suffer immensely from their convoys their trucks being pelted by Stones being attacked
being
looted and there's basically it's one of three things either there are cases of what
that's one of them there are genuine desperate people that genuinely are angry they hear about
Aid coming in but they see nothing and they are genuinely desperate so it's this instinctive
survival like I'm it's like a do or die that's one group definitely definitely Hamas members that are
dressed up as civilians and acting as civilians or Hamas networks of of of Thieves and spies that
are basically scouting
out the convoys they tend to not loot a lot of the medical supplies they
mainly focus on food because Hamas imposes they steal that stuff they sell it they impose taxes on
Aid or there are unfortunately criminal gangs as in any war zone there are criminal gangs that are
opportunistic and they want to get Aid because now it's currency because there's no cash there's very
limited cash that's C in circulation so people barter with it and it's tragic and it's horrible
and I've condemned it and
there are many gazin who are appalled by the attacks on these trucks they
think they're shame they think they're disgusting they think you know how could you attack the hand
that's feeding us the guy that's bringing it to us so I just unfortunately there is dehumanization
of the Palestinian people it's understandable why people will look at some of these images and be
like oh there's no famine they're eating Sharma or oh they're pelting stones at these trucks um
so so like multiple realiti
es are true just to conclude there is a serious serious hunger crisis
in the North there are those who would actually genuinely rather see Palestinians starve and
hungry so that they could keep attacking Israel and blaming Israel for everything and and they
don't want any solution and finally air drops I am absolutely proud of my work on air drops even
as some have tried to say I have blood on my hand for those five people that were killed how dare
you dude like what are you doing what have
you done for the people of Gaza in in in the Quran
okay I'm going to bring it from the Quran it says if if you if you basically help you know a life
if you save one life it's as if you saved the entirety of humanity that's my ethos is I would
much rather a few thousand Palestinians get some Aid than to sit back and say oh well Israel isn't
letting Aid so bad Israel bad Israel bad starve die Goin so that I can use you as props in my
protest or my social media posts and I'm sorry for going o
n and on but as you can tell this issue
for me I have been so frustrated like like how why is it controversial to get food to gazin through
a stupid plane or through a boat like why is that it's not Ahmed it's not the people that are that
are saying these kinds of things have a specific objective they have a they have a nefarious
narrative that they're sticking to you know of of course your aim was to help people but you
can't allow Perfection to be you know enemy of the good you have to mo
ve forward and do what you
can to help as many people as you possibly can and [ __ ] happens [ __ ] happens all the time but
your aim was to do good right that was your goal and that's the goal of you know all the countries
that are have been involved in this right there's France us Finland I can't remember all the names
where there's lots of countries all over the world that have been involved in this and it's obviously
because they wanted to do good as well not because they wanted to hurt
anybody you know but accidents
happen and you know you absolutely should not be feeling like you need to be responding to those
kinds of people because they are not speaking from a place of honesty at all um yeah so they're
not even worth your time so I absolutely commend your work in in the humanitarian airdrops I think
I was very impressed I think you did a great job I'm very grateful that you're doing that um
and I'm very grateful that so many countries are are getting involved and peop
le are being
helped um thank you so much for giving us so much insight for giving us so many there are so
many perspectives and all of the perspectives are true all at the same time and so it's really
helpful you know I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that I'm not just interviewing
anybody right now I'm interviewing a man who's born and raised in Gazza who's had family members
killed in Gazza because of this you know current War that's going on since October 7th you know
this is
very real for you this is very emotional this isn't just an intellectual exercise a lot
of people just like log into Twitter you know retweet their stupid little things and then they
go back to their lives you know what I mean you don't have the luxury of doing that this is
your life that you know when when people are just seeing numbers of people that have died for
you you're seeing my uncle my niece you know what I mean like this is it's it's I'm very grateful
that you are willing to have
these conversations publicly and that you're you know to be honest
I'm in awe I'm quite impressed that you're able to take a step back and to still still see things
with such a clear rational eye you know I've been whenever I read your tweets I'm always feeling
like I don't know where you get the you know where you get the strength to do that to take that you
know emotional distance you were sharing a picture between you and a man who also lost family on
October 7th um so both of you have
lost family on two opposite sides of this conflict and you're
coming together to work towards peace and my God if that isn't like the best of humanity the two of
you you know and so it I'm very grateful to know you I'm very grateful that you're here speaking
with us today and I really don't want you to pay any attention to all of those [ __ ] because
you're doing great work and and we're all very proud of you and all very grateful for you now
thank you for the kind words I appreciate it and
I am also in awe of your courage and all that
you have done over the years and you know I do feel it like you said you you said it best just
real quickly that this is not an intellectual exercise this is not a Twitter exercise this is
life and death this is a karmic responsibility to share desperately needed and and sorely lacking
voices and perspectives um from Gaza I speak for myself I've never claimed to speak on behalf of
anyone else of course but what is an indisputable fact is that a
lot of what I express are different
pieces of what I express are absolutely sentiments that are held by people in Reza people in the
United States I was talking to a Muslim hijabi woman the other day she's a doctor in Southern
California and she was saying thank you so much for speaking out I love what you're saying every
time I try to say anything against Hamas I'm a 39-year-old in independent woman making a ton of
money in the United States my family go crazy and I feel like it's genuine
ly no longer okay or
safe for me to speak out so like this this is absolutely horrible what's happening and someone
has to you know it's like the the three words that I use is I I engage I attempt to convince or I
confront sometimes you have to confront people's beliefs and misperceptions and those awful you
know ideologies and thoughts so thank you yes me yeah no absolutely now I'm going to ask you a
very big question um do you still believe that any kind of peaceful two-state solution is
possible
or how can we move forward from where we are now with both Hans and Israelis feeling safe first and
foremost um and recognizing each other's Humanity how how do you in a perfect world how would you
see things play out from this point forward well I mean I very much so believe in a two-state
solution I believe that both people should have the right to exist on the land I think the fact
that the two-state solution now is exceptionally difficult not just because of what's happening
i
n resda but also the settlements in the West Bank which many Israelis are against and and and
like that is a whole set of of Injustice but I absolutely think that peace is ultim Ely going
to be inevitable because unlike what a lot of these crazy islamists think which is actually
ironically similar to some of the Messianic um voices on on the right in in Christianity and and
even in Judaism like like there are many Muslim voices that believe in Armageddon and believe
in the end of times is g
oing to happen on the land and I I don't believe that people in Reza
are willing to be Pawns in that despicable game and anymore I genuinely think this is going to be
gaza's last war I think this is the worst thing that has ever happened Gaza in modern times some
would even argue worse than the battles that took place between the Ottoman Empire and the United
Kingdom during World War I in 1917 when GZA was taken over I see a fundamental shift that's not
to say it has I mean Godin are trauma
tized they're they're hopeless they're hungry like they're
they're in survival mode right now so like it's going to take some time but I see a genuine seed
for the potential long-term stability in which even if people don't explicitly condemn Hamas or
speak out against Hamas like people don't want war people don't want to be part of the Iranian Le
access of resistance people don't want Iranians and and and Iraqi militias and Hezbollah and
Lebanon making decisions on their behalf they don't
want negotiating on their behalf long term
and so so that's Step One is I I genuinely feel it I see it I hear it and it's one of those like
difficult to capture it's not always tangible it's sentiments it's how it's nuanced language and
Arabic like there's just a lot of sentiments that that's what I'm B basing this before mentioned
on so that's number one number two is I do think unfortunately as is the case in a lot of things
in the world like like this horrible violence is bringing about
renewed attention to this issue
not I'm not talking about the college campuses and the protest and whatever that's its own
I'm talking about like political interests um including the regional um uh political interest
the United States the Europeans like there is renewed interests that could I don't know how as
of this moment um I am involved in some behind the scenes talks but it's not entirely clear how
it's going to do but but there's there are talks about all right like let's actually do
something
to stabilize GDA to maybe launch a road map that could address what's happening in the west bang
through land swaps through a fiveyear ceasefire or just let's just pause violence in the West Bank
let's reain in the settlers I agree with sanctions against the settlers some of them are incredibly
violent and and and and and detrimental to peace so there's that front and then and there are
some behind the scenes efforts that I'm also involved in we're not yet ready to come out fully
publicly but there are efforts to bolster bottomup peace efforts Grassroots Levels by investing in
already existing organizations that are fragmented and and and and kind of poorly resource to help
Elevate their voices but to also create a loose Coalition of Palestinian and Israeli groups that
are engaged in the longterm kind of propagation of of Peace values and and and demonstra of of
the need for reconciliation but also saying yes there are injustices that need to be addressed but
neit
her people is are going anywhere so short term I think the picture is very bleak very bleak I'm
gonna be very honest with you because the biggest problem right now is it's not clear what could
take hamas's place Gaza and worse I and several analysts and experts think that there's a good
chance Hamas will survive this War I mean they'll survive as an ideology they'll survive as a group
they may not survive as a full administrative body in charge of Gaza but they will nevertheless
survive so
can Hamas and I've written a piece for the Atlantic Council about this like I'm a
pragmatist as well can what remains of Hamas be politically or administratively rehabilitated
we've seen that with the IRA we've seen that with the farc rebels we've seen that even with
the elements of the PLO after they were violent and then they renounced violence and they agreed
to the Oslo Peace process it was imperfect but there are examples in different parts of the world
where once violent groups um evo
lved and changed nevertheless I genuinely believe that this is very
likely going to be gaza's last war at least the last one in a long time even though there's the
risk and this is where the Israeli government has made a horrible Mistake by not having serious
day after plans including even bringing some elements of the Palestinian Authority to fill
the vacuum created by getting rid of Hamas in Gaza because that vacuum is so dangerous we've
seen in Syria and Iraq we've seen in Libya what hap
pen with we've seen in Mali we've seen in the
Sahel region with Burkina Faso and all these other countries and Niger when you have a vacuum sadly
in our part of the world it is usually filled by nefarious players and sadly it they tend to be
Islamic extremists or islamists or outright like terrorists like Isis and like Al-Qaeda so that's
what concerns me in the short term medium-term and long term I actually am far more optimistic and
let's finally just address the other obstacle I think to
the true potential for the Palestinian
people and that is Abbas and the like old guard senior leadership in the Palestinian Authority
in the West Bank I mean they are just as much of an obstacle to new Palestinian blood coming
into the picture that want to govern effectively that want to develop their people that and and
and and and that want to try something else that hasn't been tried I mean Abbas walked away from
an incredibly viable proposal in 2008 by Olmert whether or not that propos
al could have been fully
implemented remains to be seen but at least there was a viable basically two-state solution
that would have entailed most of the West Bank settlements being vacated some territorial
swaps symbolic Return of the right of of of the refugees which I actually want to say something
about like people attack me viciously when I say I'm sorry but there's millions of Palestinian
refugees are not going back there's no right of return as we've been lied to for decades the righ
t
of return as I believe it absolutely should take place in the West Bank and Gaza let's develop
the Palestinian territories let's make them viable places that people who are living in
actual apartheid in Lebanon actual apartheid the Palestinian refugees they want to come back
exactly and or given an option to to to settle in their countries so but Abbas and the old guard in
the Palestinian Authority are just as as much of an obstacle to to to to true peace and coexistence
as Hamas is abso
lutely you you mentioned a little bit about actual aparte in Lebanon and that was
one of the questions one of the many questions on my list here of questions for you that I've
had to forego unfortunately because of because of our time and I want to give everyone a chance
who's um joined us here today to be able to ask their questions or to pose their comments to you
um I'm sure it's been very difficult for you to keep track of everything that's going on in the
chat as well as speaking with
us um but I'm going to open it up to the group I'm I asked you all
to turn off your videos because the connection was bad but you can turn on your videos now and
uh go ahead and click on the little hand IC and you can start asking Ahmed your questions elz
I noticed you had your hand up so why don't you start us off hello thanks Yasmin for organizing
this thank you Ahmed for sharing everything for all you have done for speaking out and for bring
our attention to the larger rout brother um Tr
end that's going on in terms of like what islamist
have done to the Middle East um I'm Iranian so I'm very familiar to this issue it's really dear
to my heart and I uh lived in Iran for 20 years first hand experienced this and what I wanted to
ask you is uh related to Hamas as an um Iranian we know that the Iranian government's not letting go
of Iranian people they are hostage at their hands a recent polling shows that 80% of Iranians
are against this government and yet there's you know the
protests are um heavily oppressed
IR people kill because they don't kill about Iranian people they kill about Islam and um from
what you've have gathered that's true for Hamas as well so my question is like is Hamas going
to let go of Palestinian people and the other question which is I think this is a propaganda um
issue is like how popular Hamas actually is with Palestinian people um I remember there was a I'm
not sure how true it is there's a video of Israeli husted saying I was actuall
y in Palestinian
people is kind of implying that Palestinians work closely with Hamas so for me I want someone
with an inside view to kind of open up that how popular Hamas actually is with Palestinians and
um thank you so much certainly um and yes mean I should answer now or yeah yeah go ahead Yep this
is the table's yours yeah okay so so I mean I've spoken out against a lot of those polls that show
um overwhelming support for Hamas and and and and and my intention isn't to manufacture des
cent
where none exists and I'm not trying to kind of obscure the fact that absolutely Hamas has support
in I mean for and it's a multi-tiered uh uh there are multiple reasons multiple layers kind of think
of it as an onion with a core and then layers up to there are ideological supporters of Hamas and
then there are kind of hamas's created a network of patrons and Affiliates and beneficiaries
who either get access to jobs or to money or to Social Services or to Aid then there are people
th
at just need to get business done or need to get things done whether they business people
or organizations or whatever so they have to kind of kiss up to Hamas and work with Hamas and
and one thing to remember is for example the bath party in Iraq when when you have a system a place
where basically you have one party or government in place to survive in such an environment you
really have to kiss up to the existing regime and I'm again I'm not justif I am simply trans
like delivering what i
s happening you know like people have to kiss up to Hamas in order to either
win favors or to be left alone and then there are others that are apathetic that think this is never
going to be solved it doesn't make a difference so I might as well haha like go along with the
program and then there are others and this is actually a key point the concept of resistance M
uh kind of capital r resistance enjoys widespread support among Palestinians including those who
may actually not support armed
resistance but the idea is that it is a common belief among
most Palestinians that we've been subjected to occupation and injustices and Etc and that like
we have the right to resist uh the occupation now what what Hamas has nefariously done is it not
only hides behind the resistance narrative it has made itself linguistically politically and and
de facto synonymous with resistance so it turned itself from this islamist Brotherhood inspired
organization to we are the resistance and then th
ey positioned themselves they said oh those you
know stinky fet guys or PLO guys oh no no they're cowardly peace oh no no no pieces treacherous
and treason us but we are the resistance so people support Hamas not as Hamas the oppressive
violent disgusting islamist group but believing that this is the form of resistance or that this
is an expression of resistance and again due to people's lived experience due to brainwashing
due to propaganda due to isolation some people are able to both hat
e Hamas while also supporting
it resistance um a lot of people in GZA right now are I mean I promise you with all my heart if
you're if you've lost family members if you're standing in line for a disgusting public bathroom
with 200 people and you have to wait an hour to to to take a lead you're or or if you're in a
crowded you know a tent city in a wet muddy cold space um you're not sitting there and saying like
gee October 7th was so brilliant gee Hamas did us right gee like we've liberate
d I mean Hamas in
its ceasefire proposal to Israel and its counter ceasefire proposal wants Israel to pull back from
sh Rashid Rashid Street on the on the coast and Salah street from uh the center of Gaza basically
instead of liberating Jerusalem or liberating the AA or liberating territories Hamas is literally
now and guys are mocking them Hamas is literally now just wanting to liberate two small streets
in Gaza okay you're not sitting there saying like wow Hames is so like people are not
stupid okay
people espe they see them as billionaires in plad with their private jets too and and and you know
like they go to negotiate in Cairo on behalf of gazin and then they go back to Lebanon and Qatar
and and Iran and whatever so is that sent but but that sentiment nevertheless particularly in times
of war and it's difficult to capture and we in the western world and I'm I'm not saying Western to
be like hipster like I consider myself a Westerner but like there is this Western obsess
ion with
like capturing public sentiments through polls and and and quantifying the information we live
in a Democratic Society here in the United States and yet we got the 2016 election wrong all the
pollsters were wrong so imagine doing that in an undemocratic Society with a tiny sample size
with all sorts of societal challenges and then finally I mean when you know a lot of people when
when when you do face-to-face polling people and you ask people like what do you think of Hamas a
lot
of people in the back of their head they're thinking wow like I wonder if this is an
Israeli informant or Hamas spy person so again just take those polls with a grain of salt
yes Hamas has and will always have ideological supporters that I call the irredeemables but
when we're talking about people at large even people who historically have supported Hamas I'm
telling you they're turning against the group in droves sadly at the same time that Hamas and its
violence is being normalized in Wes
tern audiences and being celebrated as legitimate resistance
it's the height of irony that actual gazin are turning against Hamas but these Western allies are
refusing to condemn it and and celebrating them as resistance beautiful sorry do you mind answering
the first fight to do do you think Hamas will let go of his isi uh Palestinian people I
mean I I I honestly don't even know fully what that means I mean I I I think Hamas is not
gonna let go of power I mean power never gives itself up s
o like I I don't see a scenario
in which Hamas just Retreats and says okay Kal we're done like here's I don't think that's
going to happen but I I I I I also think that it's not just what Hamas wants to do I mean
and that's where I mean unfort Ely Iran and Qatar have been incredibly detrimental Iran
with financial support and Military Support but also Qatar in enabling Hamas to continue its
its its you know grip on on power so until those two backers are are fundamentally challenged or
und
ermined Hamas will wield some type of power or control over the political scene whether or
not that translates to administrative control of Raza that remains to be seen I I don't think
Hamas is capable of going back to governance in a pre-october manner even though they may exert
some control after the war the Somalia scenario Wars me tremendously that Gazza is going to
become fragmented with Hamas and some parts and Clans and others and the Israeli military and
others and and I think that
could be incredibly disastrous but thank you
thank you Ahmed toi you're next hey as me thanks for setting this up this is
fantastic Ahmed what's up man I love what you're saying and um uh to your point about the polls I
really appreciate you bringing this up because um I looked at those um I think it was the Arab
world research and development polls um when they came out and it really um kind of put things
in perspective where was like oh like clearly the Palestinians are the problem here u
m but I think
you rightly pointed out that um you know polling in itself as we all know is an imperfect science
and um especially in a situation like that that is so dire you can't exactly take those results
um at face value and just assume that everything is correct about them so I do have two questions
my first question I would love to ask is when it comes to the radicalization issue um how much of
Palestinian Society do you consider to be let's say radicalized um super quick comment abou
t your
first point uh regards with regards to the polling I mean there was the poll that came out in in
November it had 260 something Gins that responded to the to the to the I mean for goodness sake like
I don't care how much of a statistical significant like I'm sorry I I dispute wholeheartedly the
relevance of a sample that was also at the time there was no war in the South they asked people
in the South not people in the north so like I wholeheartedly refuse the the the premise of of
o
f of those fols but uh um from a statistical sample size I don't care you know so to your point
I mean yes Hamas ruling Gazza for 17 18 years that is g and and and and all not just their rule but
their Ascent to power and I was there when that was happening I mean I remember their influence
in mosques the mosqu close to my H family's house I remember vividly the the the how for example
the Friday prayer sermons they would you know it started injecting their people into the ministry
of relig
ious Affairs and then the Friday sermons you could tell who was the preacher that was like
a regular dude versus who is the dude that was like a Hamas dude the way they would do um use
Ramadan for example and and and to like do to do these like you know and to do these meals and
they bring food and then they get people together and and then they put pictures of operations
operations that Hamas would do against the Israeli targets so there's been a gradual kind of the
glorification of arm re
sistance the rejection of Peace the idea that arm resistance is the only way
to liberate all of Palestine and that any attempt to accept ccept Jewish or Israeli or Zionist as
they say presence on on Palestinian on historic Palestine is anathema to what Islam wants us to
do like that has been a trend even before hamas's electoral victory in 2006 and hamas's Takeover in
2007 and then they took over and then that Trend was just accelerated I mean when the resistance
group became a government t
hey had free Reign they had all the institutions under their control
they had all the territories they had all the Liberties there is no challenge they ruled with an
iron grip nobody could criticize nobody could say anything so yes a lot of people are you can say
radicalized a lot of people are but even within the radicalization realm that is teered it is not
entirely like all quote unquote radicalized people aren't you know a singular monolithic group like
I said some are genuinely motivat
ed by ideology some think that they're being Pious good Muslims
some think they're being Patriots Hamas has also learned over the years before do you know that
Hamas leaders mahm zahar explicitly said like almost 20 years ago that the flag of Palestine
means nothing to us this is a relic of the of the now we have the islamist flag this is the relic
of the British it means nothing and then Hamas to further entrench itself in the Palestinian
narrative and further spread its it radicalization
I should say further normalized its radicalization
injected nationalistic elements into its messaging so look it up Goog Google it you see a lot
of the Kasam Brigade Fighters now they wear patches well when they actually were went on
these parades and stuff now they fight like cowards they fight in civilian clothes but when
they wore their military uniforms all the elite Hamas soldiers started wearing flags of Palestine
patches on their chests because Hamas is saying we are the Palestinian
Army Hamas moved from only
using the Hamas flag and official government post and whatever to always having the Hamas flag and
the Palestinian flag so there is radicalization but it's multi-tiered it's religious it's
ideologically based it's nationalism based and there are also people that are genuinely feeling
powerless they feel that they see what happens in the West Bank with the settlers running them
up with full protection of the Israeli military they think that you know nonviolence in
the West
Bank has gotten this occupation and they F they feel that well then yeah of course like we have
to believe in armed resistance that Hamas is the only POS alternative what a lot of people
Overlook is the fact that the Palestinian Authority and the West bank is largely nonviolent
but they're not engaged in organized systematic nonviolent resistance that is entirely different
the Palestinian Authority is largely invested in kind of preserving their power preserving their
control main
taining their seats a lot of them have fancy Audi's and BMWs paid for by European Aid
thank you very much and some Palestinian taxes but so that's the problem with the PA is that they
have not successfully like Abu ma abas famously said to his people please go out and do nonviolent
resistance it was one of the most pathetic things he ever said because he instead of actually
leading people or directing them to specifics of here's how we're going to do nonviolent resistance
he's like Allah li
ke for the love of God please go and do nonviolent resistance so in the absence
of a viable alternative to Hamas in the West Bank unfortunately the radicalization is going to take
some time to reverse and undo yeah can I just add to that I grew up in Saudi um my best friend
in high school was Palestinian actually so and I remember he said something to me because I I I
heard I would say the Palestinian perspective very much more so obviously growing up in Saudi um and
um I remember at one po
int he s he basically said to me um he was talking about how like he he
would kill Jews like because Jews are evil all this stuff and so I saidwell what if I was Jewish
and the reason I I even said this was because now I'm EO I'm I'm a particular tribe in Nigeria and
we have a the EOS essentially some of them think that they may in fact be a lost tribe of Jews and
things that so there's a possibility I may in fact be Jewish um I don't necessarily claim it but the
point is I asked them you k
now we've been friends now for years and he was like well I'd kill you
too and this is before Hamas um this is 200 I think this is around the second intifa maybe 2001
or something like that and so this is you know my boy we're very close I know his family he knows my
family and so he says something like that and I'm thinking to myself especially as time is going on
like um just how much of this Society can't is is actually deeply believes that that Jews Israelis
should not even be there tha
t kind of thing and and I guess um is it a large percentage is it
like 70% is it 90% um because I understand the polls are not accurate and I'm willing to um give
you the your point on that and it's very fair your criticisms but from The Outsider looking in it
just seems like the vast majority of Palestinians um have a cultural problem where they just want
to essentially destroy and kill all Jews and obviously if they do feel that way then there's
nothing the Israelis can do really in the g
rand scheme of things nothing will plate them um and I
just want to understand how you know from someone on the ground who knows more than I do like is it
fair to say that the vast majority have this issue or is it just like a couple of people have this
issue and the rest are silent and kind of could go either way depending on who's in power like
I'm just really curious about this certainly and absolutely like I said I my intention has never
been to either manufacture descent where not exis
ts or to obscure uncomfortable real like
unpleasant uh dynamics that said I will tell you that definitely not the case that the vast
majority of Palestinians believe this way and I'll tell you why I mean before October 7th a lot of
Gins like I would say half of Gaz top aspirations ultimately were to get a work permit to go work
in Israel or to get treatment permits uh for their grandparents sick parents and whatever and
that included my dad who received treatment in in Israel when he before
he passed away um from
cancer so what I will say is that a lot of the Arab I mean the problem is that so many people who
are genuinely anti-semitic and hate Jews and want to kill Jews they've never met aw Jewish person
themselves in the Arab world most of the Arab world like you know because during the the the
pan arabism of of Nasser in the 50s and 60s uh not only inflamed anti-Semitism and resulted in the
expulsion of many Jews from from Arab countries to Israel or elsewhere but it also
created this
cultural barrier to understanding that Jews have been an integral part of the Middle East for
centuries and that this idea of this simplistic like Jews bad Jews kill Palestinians Jews are
worthy targets that unfortunately has been an attitude among many Arabs because they've never
interacted with Jews but Palestinians ironically have actually had far more interactions with uh
Jews and Israelis not all of them are positive to many gazin for example the only way they think
of li
ke 70% of gazin have never left the Gaza Strip just take that number I mean when someone
is living under Hamas they've never left they have experienced Israeli bombardment they see the
images of the West bang I'm not justifying it I'm not saying it's correct but like it's hard to kind
of try to push them to get rid of that image and and and get rid of that kind of simplistic you
can say violent thinking that said I will say that when I went to school here here in the United
States in in San
Francisco I mean there was a huge there was an agreement uh between our University
and Saudi Arabia there were tons and tons of Saudi students like I think between the modern
generation I think with the Abraham Accords I think with the social media age I think with the
travel I mean Saudi is a very different Society right now than it was just five years ago than
it was 20 years ago than it was when I was there I mean I grew up with the teachers like beating
me up for having long finger nai
ls or or having not covering my mouth when I yawn or eating with
my left hand saying I'm feeding Satan or Satan is taking a leak or taking a dump in my mouth or
my fingernails I mean it was it was traumatizing I was beat up for the silliest of things and I
actually was essentially forced to memorize I memorized five chapters of the Quran okay I when
it was a religious instruction school so to answer your question with regards to Palestinians I don't
think it's the vast majority I I now are
the vast majority of Palestinians going to just hug every
Jew and Israeli they see absolutely not do I think there's a lot of potential for moving the
huge group that's in the middle so let's say you know forget the irredeemables that like let's just
say 25% who are ideologically aligned with either the islamism of Hamas or just the beliefs that
you know like Jews there's no coexistence with whatever and then you have maybe 5 to 10% that
are like overtly let's say probably closer to 10% tha
t are overtly and openly pro peace calling
or or or or or or or willing to engage like I'm talking about the Palestinians engaged in the uh
groups in the West Bank and inside Israel and and even a few very few in Gaza the I'm thinking about
the the the ma the the mass in between those two uh groups I genuinely believe that should there
be sustainable stability sustainable ceasefire Economic Development political development
economic rights alone will not bring about lasting peace there has
to be Justice in terms
of stop the settlements stop the violence in the West Bank access to Jerusalem and and kind of
a long-term a pathway to a a Palestinian state that actually has control and sovereignty I am
willing to go out on a limp and bet my life that a larger number a l a larger number I'm trying
to say this oh my God I can't a bigger group of Palestinians than not will absolutely Embrace Jews
and embrace the idea that we will be neighbors and embrace coexistence and I'll tell you
something
they'll embrace it before many Arabs or Muslims in the nearby Arab countries do because that's
a lot of those people and and I'm sorry with due respect to a lot of the good people in the
Arab and Muslim world and especially in the Middle East they don't really matter because
they've been fed a steady diet of propaganda resistance and even though the regimes in a lot
of these Arab countries have tried to you know like they have their own political orientation
that's more aligned
with peaceful coexistence and diplomatic relationships with Israel a lot of
the people on the street I mean people in Amman, in Jordan are like attacking me and attacking any
Gins that want peace and coexistence I mean give me a break dude so anyway I I hope that wasn't a
rambling answer I hope that was actually useful no that that was perfect uh very briefly you know
man when I grew up in Saudi my boy was Palestinian and the reason why is because I was really the
only black kid in my high
school I was an outcast and he was an outcast so I'm very familiar with
how other Arabs look down on Palestinians it's it's a very real thing that I think it's very
interesting how the Western world is usually not very familiar with that I do have another question
but I want to let other people speak so I I like hopefully if there's time you can come back to me
thank you so much okay um yeah I did want to say that I was surprised that your friend responded
that way because it is weird and a
nd ironic but Palestinians actually are the least anti-semitic
of the Arabs and I think it's because of what Ahmed said because they've actually met Jewish
people they've worked with Jewish people a lot of them were working in Israel ET Etc um whereas
you know I talked about just like my own personal experience my mom is Egyptian my dad's Palestinian
my mom's side of my family like viciously like obsessively hateful of Jewish people and my dad's
side of the family is like we got to work tog
ether but it's because the Egyptians to them it doesn't
really matter it's like what you were saying Ahmed about jordanians it doesn't matter to them they
can just hate because it won't cost them it's just like a it's almost like a it's like a boogeyman
you know what I mean it's irrelevant to them absolutely but when you're Palestinian or when
you're living in Gazza it matters you know what I mean this is your life so you have to you know
your your your health your family's peace security a
ll of those kinds of things they're going to
come first you know what I mean and you're GNA be willing to um engage with Israelis and look
towards a peace process because you just want peace people just want to live Palestinians
are not religious people they're not they're not like pakistanis and they're not like zealots
they're not they're they're political sure they're politically aware of course and there's a lot of
disagreement they hate Netanyahu you know what I mean like you'll you'll
hear those those kinds
of sentiments but when it comes down to just like straight up anti-Semitism hating Jews for existing
you're going to hear that more in the all of the surrounding Arab countries um so yeah and just
briefly to your point yes mean like I mean and you I think this was one of the questions you had on
um on the original list but like the amount of BS that like like two things are true Arab countries
in general have supported the Palestinians in a variety of ways I'm not in
the slightest
denying that and like financially politically and otherwise also true many Arab countries
have treated the Palestinians like utter garbage putting them in isolated ghettos and Jordan and
Syria and Lebanon and saying oh we're treating you like garbage second class citizens for your
own good so that you can one day have the right of return I mean utter nonsense do you know that the
pal Palestinian Authority passport which I used to have um for I became a citizen like was one
o
f the few like most Arabs didn't need visas to enter other Arab countries but Palestinians always
needed a Visa they were always isolated they were always prevented from free access because oh no no
no we don't want you to come into our country you have to have a valid reason for being here or else
you're going to give up on your cause and you're going to give up on the right of return and it's
like give me a break dude like I am just so sick of that attitude that I still think sadly you
kn
ow is is very prevalent today in in terms of like like like I'll never forget this I will never
forget this lady in San Francisco in 2007 when I was a 17y old I'm 33 right now feel like I'm 63
in a 33y old body but I was applying for political Asylum and I was about to you know like have my
interview and this lady was like oh my God Ahmed this is terrible you shouldn't be in San Francisco
you should be in resda because that's the vinest plan is to empty the land from its people and I
and an
d she was a Christian by the way she was not Muslim she was a Christian lady in her tank tops
and I was like well why don't you I'd let I mean I I was trying to be diplomatic I was like I'd
love to see you in your tank tops living under Hamas you know like resisting like and I by the
way like no shaming like wear whatever you want I'm I'm Pro free I'm just saying Point yeah it's
just mm she's she's being such a hypocrite about it but she's in the United States and she's
expressing this sent
iment this is what the Arab and Muslim world have been doing for decades for
the Palestinians it's like go be in your [ __ ] hole go be in your ghettos for your own good
because we're doing this for you you know I'm just sick of that it's for their own good is what
it's for absolutely great thank you so much Ahmed you're right that was one of the questions um but
I'm glad you responded to it uh Julia you're next hi um I'm so pleased to be here before I ask my
question I just um want to tell
Ahmed that I want to thank him personally for helping me get out
of my fog of War you know as an Israeli after we living after living October 7th and and feeling
like everything I believed was upended and just hearing your empathetic and rational um threads on
Twitter really help me get back to what I believe and who I am so thank you for that um I wanted to
um continue talking about the pa um you mentioned of course the corruption and the issues with a bus
and there's always this idea tha
t you know barouti um should come back and I wanted to know what you
think of him you know the polls say that he's a very popular leader do you believe them I think
most of them are in the West Bank the polls but what do you have to say about that and what do we
do with the pay for slay Martyrs fund that is such a huge barrier um for me believing that we can get
to a a two-state solution so several things there um big picture just my ethos um and I criticize
the PA and like people are like
oh now you're just criticizing all the Palestinian leaders um
I actually genuinely think like I want the PA I think if the PA collapses that would be a disaster
I want I actually want the PA to be reformed I want them as a kind of a provisional uh body if
you will that'll help get us to a Palestinian state so my overall interest is in seeing the PA
survive govern effectively and evolve to kind of rise up to the occasion Mr baruti is a lovely man
I was just talking to an Israeli lady in the
90s um she was from sorry an Israeli lady who in
the 90s was working with merits and she was like barouti was one of the first voices that
was a prominent kind of promoter of Engagement and dialogue it's difficult to see how he would
be released I know Hamas is trying to get him released in the in the hostage negotiations we'll
see if that ever happens I'm sure he's a lovely wonderful human being on a lot of fronts and what
I will tell you and I like hear this like chatter behind this is no
t again chatter that's captured
on in in in in in um in some Palestinians are a little bit traumatized by the sinir syndrome so
senoir yah sinir he actually said some pretty reasonable things in the past um again I'm not
saying but like I'm just okay senoir said some like things he even had an interview in 2006 with
an Israeli TV um station that went into prison and interviewed him and he actually like sounded
reasonable um senoir has made some Palestinians worried about somebody in prison
for years and
years coming out and all of a sudden assuming all of this power having all this baggage and
untreated trauma and psychological challenges so that's what I'm hearing from a lot of pales um
regardless of these um you know uh I love the I'm sorry sorry uh just to go stay with your question
so the pay for SLE is a complicated thing for a I mean complicated in the sense that there's an
oversimplification of how it is carried out and conducted I don't think I don't I believe that
t
he PA withh holding like basically they they caused the financial crisis for themselves because
they were they had an All or Nothing approach they said we're going to keep doing this even if it
means our financing is is is is compromised is because you know the Israeli government won't
release the tax money or like International Community I think that's terrible I think that's
not pragmatic I think that's moral morally wrong Etc the one scenario where I'll mention to you
this so-called pay
for slay fund if you will being something that has helped like two samples
of how it has been helpful to some Palestinians is for example somebody does a terror attack
okay it is a matter of policy which has been condemned by the International Community called
Collective punishment BL the Israeli military so let God forbid I go out and I kill Israelis or I
attack Israelis the Israeli military will come to my family's home and they will demolish it even
though my family had nothing to do wit
h it they knew nothing so the so-called pay for slate would
give money to my family to basically give them an altern cuz this policy has been around for a long
time this house demolishment home demolishing uh policy and they're like home demolition I'm
sorry and there are Israeli Peace activists that do nothing but try to combat that so that's
one example and then there are other examples where the same fund the paid for slave fund will
actually also support people that are captured by or o
r are held prisoner by the Israeli military
for reasons other than violent attacks there are some arbitrary arrests there is Administrative
detention there are some injustice so so I'm just again in this for the sake of intellectual honesty
trying to present a way in which the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian public has viewed
this apparatus if you will um that started with the PLO by the way the PLO back in the day used to
pay the Martyr families um money so do I think it should b
e reformed do I think it should be changed
do I think there should be some sacrifices to stop paying like like if if somebody randomly goes and
starts stabbing Israeli like let's put aside the home demolition to pay for their families like
stabbing Israelis or ramming Israelis at a random bus stop like I think that's a messed up use of of
of of the people's funds and I I don't support it but I'm saying there has to be a way in which we
acknowledge that people who are unjustly targeted by as
pects of the Israeli military occupation have
benefited from this fund so can that be separated from then people who you know from this overt what
it's and I'll tell you something by the way I am willing to bet that almost no Palestinian who's
sitting there thinking I'm going to go and conduct a military operation against Israel is personally
directly Feeling incentivized by this fund so I don't have all the answers but I encourage us
to think of how this has actually helped some people and
whether or not that can be separated
um or from from um the rest of the problematic aspects of this fund um but the problem is I mean
I I see the Palestinian Authority prise as far exceeding this I mean this is one and I know for
the Israelis like emotionally charged and and and terrible aspect of the Palestinian Authority and
I absolutely agree and I understand and I give you that wholeheartedly my thing goes beyond
that in terms of the Palestinian Authority in terms of them not providing
a a a a transparent
governance and the true separation of powers AB best basically being fiveyear a 20s something year
a 19-year president on a an expired five-year term um the corruption the theft I mean my goodness
the amount of money that from Arafat days to the nowadays between the PA and Hamas billions of
dollars in AIDS were completely wasted they could have built three Palestinian States not one so
like that to me and and and and and the fat cats in the pal an authority that genuine
ly don't
want a change in the status quo that genuinely don't want to give the younger generation at
chance at governance is appalling like so I think that is a far greater hindrance um that
needs to be addressed and I I wish the United States and I wish the European Union would push
for tangible and concrete revitalization steps instead of just waiting for the Palestinian
Authority to self initiate those performs um so yeah I I I share your frustration
about various aspects of of the Pa t
hank you okay uh so ASF you're next yeah thank you hello nice to meet you uh
I really liked the reading all the stuff that you do really appreciate it um so I have I have
like uh question about like scenarios that will happen after this war or how how could this
war even end like cuz it's very hard for me to actually see what will happen and I have like
a more specific kind of question um if I try to think on the history like my first thought
is like will it be like after World War I it wil
l be like um we had a huge War but it's it
isn't enough or something like that or will it be like uh post World War I where you well you
know something has to change That's my kind of worry so like do we actually see like any um
optimism IC uh scenarios for the end of the war like I don't understood um yeah so I mean
there's something to be said about I mean Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan are often invoked
as the examples of of der radicalization and like post postwar development Etc and a
nd people
Overlook an important yet potentially incredibly uncom fact I mean we didn't we may have defeated
the Nazis and the Japanese militarily but huge parts of Japan were Imperial Japan were left
intact the the emperor stayed around a lot of Japanese troops stuck around with their guns and
weapon even though they surrendered ultimately to the Allies a lot of Nazis were rehabilitated in
Western Germany in the United States Operation Paperclip bringing them to you know look at like
Von B
rown and our Rockets program so like the thing that is chronically missing from the picture
is and that's not because I love H I want H if I could just wave that magic wand just make him
disappear but there aren't any real ideas out there for how do you actually rehabilitate some
or all or parts or a few of Hamas politically and administratively and so I have been like I
said I wrote that paper and and and trying to push for maybe like to retrieve some of the guns
and weaponry that some of
the Hamas Fighters will have to do very lucrative BuyBacks um for for for
for a buyback program for all the guns that Hamas members hold to basically offer some of the
Hamas members an offr to basically in undergo all sorts of training and and engagement that can
allow them to be part of a future uh police force or administrative body Etc that to some people
it sounds awful because after the horror of of October 7th I understand it's very difficult and
and there are some parts of Hamas that
are like I said are irredeemable and are criminal Beyond
any hope um and I do hope there's the equivalent of the nberg trials for some of those folks that
said again Japan's and and Germany's pacification did not entail the 100% of every Nazi or every
Imperial Soldier the two biggest things that I have so so this leads into to to directly answer
your question I think the two biggest missing ideas or tangible proposals or or or forthcoming
plans right now are a security a provisional securi
ty apparatus and I have called for uh a
a provisional peacekeeping force from the Arab world from Jordan and and and and Egypt and others
with economic both of these countries are debt written both of them uh with the right economic
and and and financial incentives would and both of them already contribute to peacekeeping in
different parts of the world especially Jordan would absolutely be VI viable participants who
could play a role in filling that security vacuum so that we don't have an
Isis or a or a mutation
of Hamas taking that over so that's number one and then number two is to actually engage like
basically try to Splinter Hamas try to keep like find out who in Hamas is willing to be part of
a future government based on the understanding that this isn't going to be built upon you know
uh from the river to the Sea armed resistance like all that garbage that ham hamas's religious
political program and I genuinely think that you would be surprised by how many could with
the
right incentives and the right Framing and the right call it protection or the right context
would absolutely jump ship because Hamas is a sinking ship there's no doubt about it so that's
what I've been like behind the scenes desperately trying to say like yella like let's talk guys like
like we didn't fully annihilate all of Japan or Germany we talked to them we we co-opted some of
them so can you co-opt some of the Hamas folks and then the third one um is actually going back to
the
humanitarian Aid I mean I genuinely think that by stabilizing Gaza from a humanitarian point of
view um that prevents the deter even if you want to carry out the military operation I mean Israel
in the past carried out military operations and Wars against Hamas while also having hundreds of
trucks daily Crossing in at a rate that's greater than what we're seeing right now I understand
this is the far greater more destructive more encompassing War but I think stabilizing
GZA from a humanitar
ian point of view is a fundamental component of actually increasing the
likelihood of a better outcome because when you have a population that's not hungry or that's not
desperate you can do a lot more in engaging that population and orienting them towards a different
future and then finally and I would say most importantly deradicalization isn't going
to come from on the top of an Israeli tank the deradicalization is going to be a p gradual
process that is built upon Just Stop The Killing
stop the war feed people prevent famine and then a
gradual Improvement in quality of life rebuilding reconstruction in parallel with a serious
political program to establish a Palestinian State and you know it's like people are like well
we don't want to reward hamas's like crimes no one said reward it but I mean the peace with
between Egypt and Israel came after the 73 War like Wars are often even if they're started by hor
horrific and horrible circumstances or acts it is not uncommon for
Wars to be followed up by lasting
peace or by peace agreements or by a new reality so it's not enough to just rebuild Gaza there has
to be a program to recognize a Palestinian State even if that state doesn't have full sovereignty
immediately but give the Palestinians something to feel like we have this to protect we have
this to work towards we have this to work on and they will absolutely engage in nation building
even if it takes a while to undo knew the trends of of of violence or the b
elief that somehow we
can get rid of all the Jews on the land and I'll tell you right now most Palestinians know that
there's no from The River To The Sea they know that's not going to happen they know Israel is a
nuclear State that's not going anywhere but more importantly Israel isn't just any state Israel is
a state that we have a lot to learn from medically economically uh and otherwise so I I I think and
and one one other point actually just to mention I worry tremendously about the fr
agmentation of
Gaza like the Somalia scenario I think that will be disastrous not just for Palestinians but it
will be disastrous for Israel I worry about the right-wing nut jobs not just smotrich and benir
but there are a lot of organizations backing them trying to resettle Gaza I think that if you want
to save Hamas if you want to ensure Hamas lives on and I mean the wholeheartedly this is not
a talking point you go and try to settle guys that will inject so much life into the resistance
narrative into like oh you see we told you this is this is all about them wanting to kick us out
and push us out and one last keep saying one last one more important thing to to note is that's
unfortunately part of the failed strategy and how this war was conducted and I mean there was
absolutely a plan to push gazin into the s and when Egypt stood its ground and said absolutely
not that's why this sector specific when they said to a million and a half people in Gaza like
all the military
strategists were like the hell are you doing like there were I've talked to some
of the mil the military folks on the US who were advising the Israeli military I mean the thought
was to do a simultaneous multi- sector offensive um but instead because of a political decision
inspired by some of the crazy right when nut jobs that thought oh this is our opportunity to do
that transfer of Goins finally let's push him to SI they did this like okay we're going to start in
the north we're going to
push people to the South and by the time we get to the South most of them
would have gone into Egypt and that has backfired horribly Egypt doesn't want them Eric is sure so that was asking I'll get you to
translate that please Ahmed because most of my listeners still just just thank you Eric
thank you great question no just my my dream and vision and aspiration for um the G's strip you
know after this um Eric so I I mean I wrote a little bit about this in in my last piece with
hitz in term
s of um I mean I'm absolutely 100% dreaming big and I don't mean that in like a very
like oh I'm Dreaming oh like this is going to be great I know it's Grim I said honestly short term
it's very Grim I'm still mourning the loss of my family members I'm still super concerned about the
operation in raah and its implications I there is so much and and and wondering about What Becomes
of Hamas after the war however I am absolutely dreaming big I think I believe that this is going
to be gaza's la
st war I believe that GZA has an a unique opportunity to turn into the kind of
Beating Heart of an incoming Palestinian State and that will be done by Economic Development
by healing by allot giving people the space to kind of get back on their feet what I love about
the uh airdrops and the Sea The Maritime Corridor even though obviously they're done in Co in
full coordination with Israel as they should be is they've symbolically shown that RDA like by
using the air and by using the sea GDA
has so much potential we can deliver Aid and commerce and
we can move people in and out I ran a nonprofit organization in the United States to build a
humanitarian airport an IDF uh uh un International run airport in RDA um made a lot of progress
um and including with Israelis and talking with Israelis so my dream is to see RDA as a role model
for Effective Palestinian government for Effective stability as a tool towards State Building
and most importantly to prove that when the occupation
military occupation of the West Bank
ends and those settlements at one way or another are addressed either through territorial swaps
vacating uh most of them and other Solutions the Palestinians are incredibly capable of governing
the West Bank and and and which I actually think that is the True Heart of the Palestinian State
because it's geographically bigger there are a lot more resources the Topography is diverse
a lot of those refugees I mean uh in in Jordan and in Syria and in Lebanon
um could totally
come back to the West Bank um I also dream of doing artificial islands off the coast of GDA and
having those become um Economic Development zones and and and and even living environments I'm not
talking about Dubai style ones but I'm talking about expanding rda's kind of territorial reach
to again absorb more people like I'm dreaming big with Hamas however there's nothing good
with Hamas in its current shape and form in control of nothing good is going to happen to to
to
the Palestinian people and that's why I think yes I understand like you you can't you know drop
roses on Hamas I understand that there are violent terrorist group that has to be confronted but a
military solution alone will never address this issue got it thank you sh I see good for you man very impressive Adrien
you're next hi thank you so much Jasmine for hosting and thank you ahed this has been really
uh really helpful I had two main questions uh the first is maybe what's your analysis of
the
US government's current approach with Israel like do you do you think that you know all is
well or they could be doing a little bit more um actions versus inactions and second question
um we often hear two mainstream discourses which is why this is so helpful um either okay Israel
is committing genocide or Hamas is responsible for everything bad happening to Palestinians
and Israel's Justified so it's almost like we have to situate ourselves in one of either of
those two camps um and
so we hear okay Hamas is shooting at its own people and no it's the IDF
that's doing so it's all very confusing so second question I guess is how do we make sense of all
this what news do we look at with regard to the term genocide you have family there what do they
feel is like is there Nuance um I mean you've been speaking about the Nuance the whole time but I'm
still kind of stuck on you know those two camps like it almost feels like you have to choose
one or the other or you're just um
you're sort of accused as walking the line so yeah I guess um
what can you can you speak to that and maybe your family's perspective as well and uh yeah thank you
certainly thank you Adrian um so I mean the United States government is very frustrated with what's
happening right now for a variety of reasons the US feels like it gave Israel unwavering support uh
in terms of uh right after October 7th political backing at the UN vetoing all those ceasefire
resolutions providing tons of Munitio
ns and and Firearms to the Israeli military but a lot
of military advisers believe that the Israeli approach has not been particularly effective
the deteriorating humanitarian conditions have put the United States in a tough position and the
US has kind of lost a lot of its Goodwill Capital if you will by standing firmly behind Israel's
mil military offensive in Gaza and so there's a kind of and we've seen the implications of that
from a kind of the Electoral politics side of it here so the
re's immense frustration there's
immense worry that the United States could be politically directly morally and otherwise be
held responsible partly responsible for having stood behind this um now five month long military
operation so that's why I think the United States pushing the Israeli uh military and Leadership
uh to conduct the the to to allow for greater flow of humanitarian Aid even if some of that has
materialized some of it has not materialized some of it will maybe happen won't
happen um we've
seen also that I think the United States is concerned both politically but even a lot of like
this mainstream Jewish um Community leadership is worried about the the longer this goes on the
way this has been conducted is potentially you know is bringing Global support for Israel to
Historic lows and the United States government feels like it's going to be you know a a a part
of that so do I think more can and should be done absolutely um do I think however there is a
slight
oversimplification sometimes and I catch a lot of crap for saying this but I don't care
people think that the United States can turn on a switch just because yes yes the US support for
Israel is steadfast the US gives a lot of Aid to Israel and Aid generally means you should be able
to exercise leverage over the recipients that is true while it is also true that the United States
cannot just turn on and off a switch that stops the war or forces Israel into certain actions
the United States
criticized Saudi Arabia for its conduct in Yemen and during that war and
yet us support for Saudi didn't translates to translate to a US ability to completely stop that
War influence fully influenced Saudi Behavior Egypt after the 2013 uh uh uh uh situation with
the military taking over and un seeding morsy from Power the United States cut off aid but Egypt
nevertheless stayed on its own course and what it perceived that its own interests and then the US
is eventually resumed Aid so like l
ike there are numerous examples where like turkey for example
like the US cut off turkey from the F-35 fighter jet program uh because the Turks purchased the
S400 uh air defense system from Russia but the Turks went ahead and like persevered so so believe
it or not even with billions of dollars in annual Aid and like even with all the military support
that the United States has presented uh provided the Israelis with the Biden Administration and the
state department and the president the Wh
ite House cannot single-handedly stop Israel's actions or
or or or guide them in one way or another they can exert tremendous pressure and how that pressure
uh uh translates to action is something separate but support for Israel is largely I mean it it
comes from Congress uh some of the ammunitions were approved by the state department so there's a
lot of nuance in how the US can exert pressure on Israel some commentators and analysts out there
they're like President Biden can stop this war
like that he could overnight stop it and that's
just not true even with the billions of dollars that the US provides moving on to um the second
part of your question and I think that like yes I mean when I say multiple things are true
at once I will say I mean there is absolute Israeli propaganda and they'll tell you as much
like there is a desire to say that Israel is not responsible for the suffering arm we let in all
the humanitarian needs as if Israel has nothing to do with what's happ
ening and I've condemned
that and I think that's hogwash and I think Israel absolutely Bears a tremendous amount of
responsibility regardless of the fact that yes of course Israel was attacked and they have like
any Nation attack are going to respond to that attack militarily I'm not disputing that I'm not
saying Israel should just like say okay like we've done we're not going to do anything but to deny
that the Israeli military has committed horrible actions whether they were mistakes whet
her they
were deliberate whether they were bad intelligence whether the weapons went astray like I still don't
know why 31 family members of mine were killed even though I their children as young as three and
four months old shredded like I'm never going to sit here and I don't care what any pro Israel
person come at me dude I don't care what you say that was a war crime that was horrible that
was atrocious and I will forever have grievances with the state of Israel even though I am willing
to reconcile and push forward and I think this is far bigger than me or my pain or my family this
is about two peoples millions of people finding away amidst the horrible Bloodshed on the other
side there's absolutely Crimes by Hamas I mean Hamas wants hunger Hamas wants dead Palestinians
Hamas and the way they conduct their own they think they're a people's militia they think they
have every right to operate how they see fit so that they can Target the Israelis so and for
years I mean I
helped the dude get his out of bhon in Northern GDA because Hamas in 2014 were
launching missiles and Rockets from his from his home near his areas and when he confronted them
they um threatened him and and and they thought that they like and they told him like what's the
worst that could happen you know you're going to die we're all going to die one day why not go out
as Martyrs you know and he was like screw you I don't want to be a martyr I want to live I want to
protect my family so Ham
as for example absolutely hindered and told people not to evacuate when the
Israeli military people told people to leave the north um Hamas not only hid that information
from people and people ironically had to go on Facebook those who had some internet to listen to
the Israeli spokesperson in Arabi Thea the Kat guy to actually hear the evacuation orders there are
reports that I have heard from multiple people and I've tried so hard to document and some of them
like many have told me that H
amas fired at some civilians who were trying to evacuate because
they want to keep the civilians around so that they could use them as as human Shields does that
mean that Israel didn't attack the civilians that were evacuating no Israel absolutely hit again
you can say it's faulty intelligence maybe there was a Hamas guy nearby whatever so then Gins
were like well we're terrified we don't want to evacuate because we're afraid so they were
caught up between the two parties and that's just t
he tragedy of the situation so who who do you
believe I don't believe any of it I do believe both in a way like like it's both are true like
there's a kernel of Truth to both but both are also propagandists both are lying and both are
full of [ __ ] and Israel's propaganda I will say sometimes I'm like dude like you really
could use a better communication spokesperson and hassis propaganda is so disgusting because
I've Liv through it I know that like they don't want the air drops because th
ey not only want to
control and tax the aid coming in but they also actually like they love scenes of starving like
like these apocalyptic scenes of skinny people like hung dying you know like or or scenes of
gin swarming at TRS my God that injects life into Hamas so I'm saying let's disarm Hamas by actually
feeding people by actually preventing large scale atrocities and Israel has effectively destroyed
most of Gaza right now like the big scale operations are done there's nowhere else to g
o
except Raa essentially right now so use Precision use those drones the same drones that effectively
got that aruri guy in Lebanon the Hamas military dude in Lebanon I think all eyes are on Rafa
right now and how that military operation is conducted could absolutely make or break Hamas not
from the point of view of oh well you're going to decimate their battalions who cares about Hami
battalions they can stand up new battalions in a year in a month they can probably get 500 guys
with some
AKs and a couple of RPGs and call that a battalion a kativa um Hamas will live long term
if civilian casualties and Rafa are atrocious and horrendous and if we see more apocalyptic scenes
of hunger I hope that answered your question it's complicated it's nuanced there are no easy answers
but both things can be true at once um yes me I know we're running out of time I think I can
do one more question okay uh Sarah last but not least hi yes hi ahed thank you for the opportunity
thank you for
speaking about this I really enjoyed the whole Nuance conversation and how you talk
about everything being true all at once and it's really interesting that you don't get affected
by the propaganda and you see the truth behind it I come from Iran similar to elnas so we've
had very similar experiences and when you talk about the two-state solution about how these two
peoples can live together that's very beautiful that's I'm not sure how realistic that is still
because you have a very optim
istic view of things despite everything that's happened to you I don't
know how you manage that I have a very Bleak view of everything and for me it's not just Israel or
just Palestine or just Israel and Palestine in a vacuum I see and I'm not taking away the agency
of Israelis or IDF for Hamas and Palestinians I I want to say that I understand that how this is
just a disaster on all levels happening but I see also how Palestinians and Hamas itself can be used
as upon by the Islamic regime
in Iran because they want this they need this kind of disastrous War
to go on for as long as it does and even if you dismantle Hamas I think that mentality cannot be
dismantled that easily like even if you take away all their guns I'm not sure how realistically you
can get to that TW State solution that looks so beautiful and peaceful and a dream for a lot of
people because I think the Islamic the islamist Allies all around the world especially in Mena
they don't want that they I for whatev
er reason and we know the nefarious reasons behind it I
think they're having a field day at this point and they are feel they're feeding into this volatile
situation by the propaganda every time there is a a protest happening downtown Toronto I can see the
Islamic regime's flags and Taliban Flags I'm like what's the point then I'm not going to go join
this protest because they have the the country's flag that has traumatized me Beyond Health Beyond
uh being safe anymore Beyond being sane an
ymore so I'm not sure how you can reach to that point
and how you can cut off the influence that the islamists have on Palestine and on Israel on the
other side of this whole thing so I mean that's the million-dollar question right I mean that's
definitely a valid concern uh I will tell you this I mean I would never underestimate people's
will and desire to live and and and I I genuinely think this war in Gaza has for so many people
who are now like saying you know what actually maybe maybe
hamas's martyrdom is [ __ ] and most
people want to live even though who support the resistance so I again I genuinely think that
the solution isn't just going to be a matter of deradicalization in people like it's going
to be a pragmatic realization that we need to live we have to make this work and we have to
navigate this incredibly messy environment and situation so I would never underestimate the
power of that just on its own in shaping and and and forging a in shaping a different fut
ure
and motivating people to forge a different path forward what I will say is that I mean yes the
control and influence of the islamist will take some time to undermine but and and and that's
the problem is sometimes like looking at Egypt I mean I wonder like Egypt used the kind of iron
grip approach um and I don't know if for example the current government is no longer owering Egypt
would they islamists then easily walk back in or not so like like there's a thing to be said about
the eff
icacy the short and medium-term efficacy of an iron grip to just like push them out and
and exclude them and I at this point genuinely believe that's the only way forward but I also
worry about an inorganic deradicalization not having the beneficial long-term desired outcomes
um I think a lot of people in Palestine have given a true option to have long-term stability to have
rights to have rights and and and I think there has to be a recognition with all the four mention
I am the first to t
ell you there's an asymmetry of power I I I mean yes they're both sides it's funny
to again two things are true at once both sides honestly do some things that I swear to God are
just like M image of each other with some of the propaganda with some of the dehumanization people
are like oh look at like Israeli kids being taken to a tank Museum and guns and whatever and then
you look at pictures in Gaza of like kindergarten graduations with like guns and weapons it's like
like on and on and o
n so there is a I hate to say it this way because this word is demonized a
bism component to this conf but there's also a tremendous asymmetry of power I mean Israel is a
nuclear Superior Nation with a standing army and Air Force and and an economy and the Palestinians
are kind of disperate groups of fragmented territories and and fragmented political entities
that said I think both people even like clearly Israel's military superiority has not achieved
lasting security for the Jewish peopl
e and clearly hamas's terroris and the Palestinian unwillingness
to fundamentally try something different has not achieved Liberation and freedom so like I do think
in a weird way both people are forced despite you know the discrepancy both people are being forced
now through a horrendous set of circumstances to face the reality through pragmatic a pragmatic
lens and realize that there has to be a different path forward so that's what makes me optimistic
on the Palestinian side but I will a
lso tell you that with a Netanyahu government and bangir and
smotrich nothing Good's going to happen on the Israeli side I don't care how many how much you
want to say Hamas is responsible for it like both feed off of each other like the rightwing in
Israel absolutely and this is actually to I'll conclude on this yes mean this was actually a
point that you uh a question that you had in your original sheet I talk about Hamas being
useful idiots to the anti- Palestinian anti- peace establishm
ents in Israel and this isn't a
conspiracy this isn't like this is like an openly discussed like in Israeli media and Reuters
and Times of Israel and and the Jerusalem Post Netanyahu saying do you want me to prevent the
establishment of a Palestinian State well let me let Qatar send billions or millions of dollars of
cash to keep Hamas power the Hamas morons thought that they were we are persevering and we are here
in spite of Israel what they didn't know is that they were a godsent gift to
Israel they were an
absolute gift from Heaven to the anti- Palestinian forces that said oh look we don't have a viable
negotiating partner Abbas only controls the West Bank Hamas is like Hamas stand and it's a citadel
for terrorism we can't give the Palestinians a state we can't NE negotiate so that's one of
the things that I say to a lot of these stupid leftists that don't know their top from bottom is
like please think of how Hamas has undermined by undermining Palestinian Unity they've
not only
weakened the kind of the the united front for a Palestinian state if you will but they've enabled
the right-wing in Israel to point to hamas's terrorism and say look we gota these people only
know military occupation when I got to keep them under the boot they've enabled Israel to say oh
we don't have a negotiating partner even though I dispute that narrative because I think even though
he abass for all his faults was desperate to get some kind of a deal uh in the West Bank which i
s
ironic it's like well why did you reject the 2008 deal and after that you were like oh please come
back and negotiate another deal nevertheless Hamas has been a useful idiot and and and and and I
mean Israel I mean I'm sorry I'm I'm sorry Israel basically let this mini mini Hamas stand by like
like take shape like Israel had the intelligence they saw the tunnels they saw the armaments they
saw the open training for leading up to October 7th and they thought they could manage them they
th
ought they could bribe them with Qatari funds to keep them in power so that they keep the pal is
divided and so just to conclude and I I insist on concluding on a on a positive note not I of course
it's Bleak of course there's no shortterm I don't have all the answers I see I log in every day man
I swear to God every day I want to walk away from this I work in International Development that's my
like that's how I make my living like every day I I mean yes me I was sharing with you just the
other day this disgusting threat I get threats and harassment all the time and I don't care
I'm a tough guy I'm I have male privilege like I have the means to defend myself like my stuff
is scrubbed off the internet fine but imagine how many more Palestinians or how many women more
women Palestinian women not just Palestinian men um unfortunately women's voices are often
marginalized in the Israel and Palestine I mean it is both a patriarchal society but also a lot
of women feel incredibly
unsafe to speak their mind and a lot of women if given a chance they
would absolutely be peacemakers so I genuinely despite the like this I mean every day is Hell
at a personal level getting on Twitter both sides the pro Palestine people and the pro-israel
people I would say now it's genuinely like a 50/50 before it was like maybe like a 7030
but like and I'm not out there to antagonize both I'm trying to establish Common Ground across
our differences and that in Tales sharing a lot of unco
mfortable facts and I'm not going to be a
tool for pro-israel people that think oh we just need him to you know criticize Hamas criticize
the Palestinian leadership but keep his mouth shut and say Israel is perfect there's no problems
everything is fine and the minute I open my mouth about Israel they're like oh you piece of trash
you're a snake and you're you're not authentic and you're horrible and like screw those people
and screw those people there's a lot in the middle there are a lot
of people like yourself like like
so many people who are following exactly who who genuinely want something different and I feel
like I have done more to humanize the people of Gaza and to inject that Nuance than a thousand
protests in any Western Capital could have and so many I talk to so many Israelis who tell me
man I was into peace and then I gave up after October 7th and then you help me kind of calm down
a little bit or come back to my senses from that or people who are like you know
what dude I'm all
behind Israel I'm all behind the if I'm all behind the operation but you force me in an uncomfortable
way to actually think that there are civilians who are being killed by our military operation and
thinking about your family and thinking about you and like you have nothing to do with Hamas your
family's not Hamas and yet they're being killed and like that ability to humanize the people of
Gaza is valuable even in a short term even in an intangible way so there's that th
ere is what I
said about I think dazin are done once and for all with war there's I think you know I mean sorry
to end on this also like this this somewhat uh but there's a great book out there and you know
like this is the title of the book it's called Everything Is [ __ ] I encourage you all to read
it it was a bestseller and it was talking about this gentleman who um was a bestseller his other
book was the art something the art of not giving a [ __ ] but his book was talking about how ho
pe
emerges out out of Despair and misery like if life is perfect and everything is fine like what's
why develop hope why want something better so like it is precisely the misery and the war and
the death and the destruction that's taking place in Gaza that gives me hope for a different path
forward for a different future yes that future is uncertain yes we don't know What Becomes of
the vacuum What Becomes of Hamas is Netanyahu going to go is Trump going to come back into
office there's a
ESS array of uncertainties but what I have control and agency over is offering
humaniz well first of all humanizing both sides talking to Israelis talking to hostages talking to
families of hostages and kind of sharing a missing Narrative of Palestinians that is lost in the
polarized World offering humanitarian solutions that save a few lives or a few thousand lives or
feed people and supporting pragmatic path forward offering uncomfortable assessments uh about the
Israeli role in the war a
nd the Israeli atrocities but also about Hamas and about the failures of the
Palestinian uh leadership and the the the the the the just the delusions I mean we need leaders that
don't take Palestinian sentiments and and and and and and just like repeat them we need leaders
that also challenge the dominant narratives and challenge people to not only get out of their
comfort zone but to say hey there's no alternative but peace and coexistence there's no full right
of return those like stories
about I have my kece from hia I'm sorry my my grandparents on both
sides were pushed out of historic Palestine but I know that they're we're not going back to reav
and rla or we're not going back to yaffa okay I know that so we need leaders that challenge that
entrench narratives and I'm certainly no leader I view myself as just one of many Palestinians
who are fed up but I intend to use my Western privilege my male privilege my sense of well-being
and ability to to defend myself and contr
ol myself my my my environment to speak out and to to to to
offer a voice um that's different not like those who come to the Western World who go to Europe and
are PhD holders and yet they are even more radical than than people in GZA it's like I understand
people in the West Bank or in GZA maybe being hesitant or having a hard time seeing things
differently but when you get out and you start promoting the garbage resistance narrative you are
truly the enemy of the Palestinian people so I I
see a shift it's going to happen it's not going to
be Kumbaya we're not going to all hug each other out um well I'm happy to hug whoever wants to hug
but I'm saying the people it's going to be a while it's going to take some time but I genuinely see
a shift um emerging out of this misery and this horror thank you ahed I really appreciate it and I
I really do hope so that you are right about this because we need something good to happen at this
point in this world we need hope and I appreci
ate your positive attitude and the explanation and
the answer thank you thank you yasine we need to get rid of the Iranian regime Sarah just like
they started they started this whole mess and once they're toppled it will help end this whole mess
as well I hate to Center everything around like I'm not a narcist they are I see the evil that
they are and it hurts that so many people are dying because of this evil regime so I need that
hope I need what Ahmed is talking about to be real for my o
wn sake for my own sanity so I appreciate
it absolutely I mean they're not only in they're in Syria they're in Yemen they're everywhere
right yes their tentacles are everywhere and people yeah it's it's a a lot more exactly it's
a Hydra you cutas there will be something else coming so way beond Hamas versus Israel exactly
so this hope it it's really is helpful so thank you thank you yes thank you thank you very much
Sarah for your question as always so thoughtful um and thank you Ahmed for
giving us so much of
your time you still got quite a few people that want to ask you questions but um you did say
that you wanted to head out so I urge you to take a look at the comments that are happening in
the chat here and so you can see all the people that are sending you their love and thanking
you so much for your rational voice in such an irrational time um Adrian commented on it and
so did you about how there's these two camps both extremists both only willing to see black and
whi
te simplistic childish uninformed you know um extremes and it's really it's really good for
all of our hearts to hear your voice and um to know that there are rational people and that we
belong to this community here in the middle and that we don't have to choose one of those two
sides and I promise you with all my heart and wholeheartedly and sincerely that they might
not be out spoken they might not be on Twitter with thousands of followers they not might not
be writing articles online bu
t thousands upon thousands of Gins um genuinely think and believe
various pieces of what I've been sharing for the last couple of hours even if they're unable
to express it um and and and I encourage you to always resist the temptation to think of
any people gazans Palestinians Muslim Muslims Christians Jews Z as a monolithic singular group
and there is a silent majority that absolutely rejects the garbage of islamism and Hamas and
genuinely wants peaceful coexistence even if they it takes
a while like they absolutely would
welcome that over martyr them and being used as ponds by the mulas in tan yeah absolutely and we
need to support them and we need to empower them thank you and we need to feed them too we got
to feed them first so go air drop we got to go up move up the Maslow's hierarchy of needs here
but yeah absolutely you're absolutely correct thank you so much everyone and thank you so much
Ahmed take care bye bye bye y'all thank you after hearing all that you might b
e left wondering what
can I do how can I help well this is why I created a nonprofit called free Hearts free Minds we are
the only organization dedicated exclusively to helping these free thinkers we Empower them with
our programs and supportive Community lifting them up so they can heal speak out and begin to make
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