Ross Cochran: Now we're hit record, so now we can officially get started, I want to welcome everyone to a regular conversation that we as part of the ministry are so glad to bring you in with. Ross Cochran: I am joined by frankly to my favorite people one i've known for all of about four minutes, and one of the proven to working with every day, so my name is Ross and wherever you are watching this just know i'm so glad you're here, because today we are joined by end crouch Andy welcome. Andy Cro
uch: Thank you i'm amazed i'm added to your top people in four minutes. Ross Cochran: yeah no. Ross Cochran: i'm realizing after I said that that actually says a lot about the people that I know, and I might have to make some apologies later and also we're doing, but my camera chief communication and innovation officer I don't wanna so welcome both of you i'm really excited for this conversation. Michael Handler: like this is gonna be good i'm i'm offended by the fact that Andy made it that far
that fast and. Ross Cochran: i'm gonna yeah we're gonna will it'll come up in my performance review later. Ross Cochran: But for those of you who don't know Andy is a partner for the ology and culture and practice, which is an organization that works to as the creative engine for redemptive entrepreneurship. Ross Cochran: And Andy has written so many books many which might already be in your library, you were exploring faith culture, the image of God and the domains of technology power leadershi
p and the arts. Ross Cochran: And one of the first things I want to talk about Andy is actually your upcoming book which we're very excited about the launch is April 19 and that's. Ross Cochran: The life we're looking for reclaiming a relationship in a technological world can you let folks know you know i'll ask the question what makes this book different than some of the other books, where people might be familiar more familiar with your work. Andy Crouch: Fantastic question um. Andy Crouch: So
well if my best selling book the books that most people have read is called the tech wise family and, in some ways, this is a sequel. Andy Crouch: But, but that book is targeted at a very specific audience parents, you know kind of raising kids trying to figure out how to put technology in its proper place in the home. Andy Crouch: This book is in some ways a bigger more more audacious project, which is to actually ask what's the proper role of technology in our kind of social world, not just i
n our homes but. Andy Crouch: In all the ways we're living together, otherwise we're kind of being human together so it's a it's a more ambitious project. Andy Crouch: And I would also say actually of all my books it's the one that i'm most hope people will be able to give friends and neighbors who may not share their the particulars of their faith but. Andy Crouch: One thing that's really interesting about technology is that almost all of our neighbors whatever they believe or don't believe eve
rybody feels like something is not working and and that we need a redesign of our technological world that's better for people. Andy Crouch: So this is a book designed to be shared it's very much written from my own Christian point of view but. Andy Crouch: not written assuming the reader shares that point of view, and that was a new thing for me i've written a number of books that are you know, very much for fellow Christian readers. Andy Crouch: This one certainly you won't get to the end of t
he book with wondering whether I believe that. Andy Crouch: The Gospel is real and Jesus is raised from the dead, but, but you won't feel if you don't believe that you won't feel like shut out or like you're overhearing a conversation that wasn't meant for you. Andy Crouch: And I will just one interesting third thing, so far, the early reviews it hasn't come out yet, but from people who have read it heads time the single most common thing I say, is it made me cry and no one has ever said that ab
out. Ross Cochran: Oh wow. Andy Crouch: I hope that's good news I think what it means is that, in this book i've tried to you would think about technology could be kind of dry or analytical. Andy Crouch: But I actually think the big issues are emotional and I guess that i've succeeded, at least for some of my readers in touching emotion, the emotions, we all feel as human beings. Andy Crouch: And I think when we cry in response to things you know it's, not because I don't think it's because it's
been the book is hurtful or. Andy Crouch: You know I think it's because it touches people's longings vulnerabilities hopes. Andy Crouch: losses in a way that maybe I haven't had to do another book so i'm actually strangely encouraged by that feedback. Andy Crouch: yeah. Ross Cochran: I mean yeah but it's one of those things where you really want to know the context. Ross Cochran: When people need that feedback. Ross Cochran: Why, but no I. Ross Cochran: that's the impression that I got is you k
now I think one of the things, especially coming out of the past two years, that so many in our Community so many people around the world have felt is this. Ross Cochran: level of in personal relationship, you know I had the privilege of and I had the privilege of actually talking to one of your daughters amy for a previous book and one of the things that's so clear about her writing style about your writing style is your ability to communicate. Ross Cochran: Issues that we all feel but might no
t be able to put language to in a way that makes sense and can make sense to me I sure all of you can make sense to you i'm. Ross Cochran: Like one of the reasons why we are having this conversation with the end today it's because Andy is one of the speakers at the 2022 child establish a forum. Ross Cochran: If people haven't heard anything about the forum, can you explain why one is gathering speakers like Andy and what you are most excited about to bring andy's perspective into this gathering
of our Community. Michael Handler: yeah I mean putting any was always on our shortlist This is our second forum. Michael Handler: He didn't like Ross I mean you shot right up there Andy right. Michael Handler: you've got that going for you here, but, but the child assumption forum for those who aren't familiar with it again, this is our second time doing it will be in nashville and later September the 22nd 23rd, I believe, or it could be the 23rd and 24th but i'm. Michael Handler: 22nd 23rd ther
e we go I should have got the gut instinct there the child discipleship forum is a. Michael Handler: Time to gather with like minded people who have their hearts beat and break for child discipleship. Michael Handler: This is local church practice this is, these are individuals who whether it's your own kids kids in your Community your grandkids whatever it might be. Michael Handler: But if if you have a heart to want to see children and youth develop lasting faith in Christ, this is, this is th
e gathering, this is why we put this together, and this is why we invited Andy. Michael Handler: Andy and other speakers are here to be a part of a conversation that takes a cultural analysis that takes into account child advocacy that takes into account local church practice. Michael Handler: and tries to kind of offer in some regards a culture exit Jesus making sense of where we're at at this time at this space. Michael Handler: there's a lot of these types of conferences and conversations tha
t we have for local church, maybe young adult to. Michael Handler: Just kind of adult level, but we really at a want to have felt a deep spirit of conviction to bring that down to the fact that hey. Michael Handler: Our four year olds are experiencing the same culture as the 40 year olds in our congregations so we've got to be able to unpack that for that local church practitioner for that child disciple maker, whether a parent or. Michael Handler: A volunteer or a children's pastor and Andy tha
t's why we're excited to have you a part of this, because what you talked about about the humanity. Michael Handler: That kind of is in some regards veiled behind technology we're all on a zoom call right now, I can see you, I can see Ross I know that you're not me, I know that you know. Michael Handler: You have a presence in itself, but at the same time you're still captive on my screen so there's only so much humanity that i'm experiencing and I think. Michael Handler: You know, for as a pare
nt of young kids who experienced some of the coven 19 pandemic with kids who are now educating at home, there was quite the challenge there of that kind of loss of human connection as as you write about technology oftentimes from a. Michael Handler: Christian worldview weekend sometimes maybe criminalized technology and point out all the bad. Andy Crouch: ways and. Michael Handler: And you and amy in your books you've never necessarily really done that but you've tried to right size it. Michael
Handler: In response to what we believe to be a biblical worldview, and a motto day that we're all created with in the image of God, how do you go into that and the life we're looking for it sounds like you, you kind of take that to the next level or next kind of page, if you will. Andy Crouch: Well, I think it's timely in a way, maybe i'll be joining on September, because I think this book, it is actually very deeply about formation and discipleship. Andy Crouch: And the to me the real heart of
the matter is what in the I don't know that use this word a lot in the book because it sounds kind of abstract but i'm really writing about personhood what it is to be a person. Andy Crouch: Which is intrinsically bound up with relationship with love and and also with our design as human beings. Andy Crouch: We have put it in the book, as we are heart soul mind strength complexes designed for love Jesus. Andy Crouch: You know, called out deuteronomy six is the great commandment greatest command
ment love the Lord your God with all your heart your soul your mind and your strength. Andy Crouch: I actually think one of the amazing things about children is how much they just instinctively. Andy Crouch: Bring the awesomeness of heart soul mind and strength and almost everything they do like as adults, we certainly learned to tamp it down, we express our curiosity less we. Andy Crouch: We hold back on our emotion, we have learned to serve tame our bodies in a way, but kids are just like all
in all out there, you know. Andy Crouch: And it's actually an interesting question what happens is We grew up the causes us to forget that all most. Andy Crouch: of Chinese and at the same time that almost has to be developed and it it's not all there at the beginning and that's a big part of what parenting and all forms of formation and discipleship are about. Andy Crouch: And the way this connects to technology is that I think technology has been very, very poorly designed to respond to our wh
ole heart soul mind strength constitution that is. Andy Crouch: it's not helping us grow in these four fundamental dimensions of being human and it's not it's even more so, not designed to help us grow in love love for God. Andy Crouch: Unfortunately, our technological world is shaped by a kind of if at best naturalistic you know kind of materialistic assumption set of assumptions about the world. Andy Crouch: And ultimately, to me, technology is way too defined by this dream of what I would cal
l impersonal power. Andy Crouch: The idea that we can get a lot of what we want done in the world, without having to be any particular kind of person, you know when I go into the convenience store and I paid for my shortbread which is my drug of choice when I go to the convenience. Andy Crouch: Sometimes right. Michael Handler: That seems to be at least a socially acceptable one. Andy Crouch: doesn't impair your driving and so forth, but walkers shortbread man I can't resist and stuff. Andy Crou
ch: Anyway, you know I go in there and I pay for it and I leave, and I can do that without making eye contact with a single person even sometimes I try to make eye contact, like the cashiers not really paying attention. Andy Crouch: No one knows my name, no one knows who I am because I have money and we have technology that allows that money to be transferred through a little piece of plastic that I have in my wallet. Andy Crouch: In my pocket, and you know this is all extremely convenient it's
also super bad at developing human beings this heart soul mind strength complex is designed for love. Andy Crouch: So without denying that technology is useful for lots of things, I think the question i'm trying to raise is what you know what is it good for and what's it not good for. Andy Crouch: And what it's really not good for is the formation of persons, and I think this is why we've ended up as the most powerful people in history by almost any measure, certainly as a population, the riches
t people in history. Andy Crouch: And yet, arguably, some of the most lonely people in history as a population almost certainly the loneliest human beings i've ever been. Andy Crouch: Incredibly, anxious incredibly subject to distress like depression and so forth, and I think this because we live in a world that doesn't develop us as persons and wow that's hard for everybody it's hard for the four year old and a 14 year old. Andy Crouch: The four year old is uniquely like vulnerable to this worl
d, because this is the formative season of life, I mean. Andy Crouch: I once heard a pediatrician say the first 10 days, the first 10 months, the first 10 years are like just deeply deeply consequential for human beings. Andy Crouch: And it's not that you can't grow and change in your 20s or 40s or 80s. Andy Crouch: But whatever you have whatever growth and change you go through in that in those seasons is so bounded in some ways by the opportunities that you had to be formed. Andy Crouch: In th
ese critical years, and so, if we're going to reckon with and change course and how technology is forming and not forming us. Andy Crouch: Really, the way that we care for and invest in children is like ground zero for actually hope, I would say, for the next for where this goes from here, as well as real risk. Michael Handler: yeah absolutely we would we especially the fact that you know, in the age from the ages of four to 14 are the most receptive. Michael Handler: ages of these you know you
know human beings to the Gospel we said all over the world. Michael Handler: yeah what you're saying here is no different right it's the it's the it's children who are susceptible but also receptive to wear that formation process and what what's what's the cycling them what's forming them what's instrumental in that and. Michael Handler: That that that that pursuit there is really interesting. Andy Crouch: Can I can I just Double Click on that. Andy Crouch: I think we should not be deceived by h
ow readily kids take the technology into thinking that that's what they most want, but like I really appreciate the. Word receptive really. Andy Crouch: Just a couple data points of this, I mean one in some research we did for my daughter amy's book. Andy Crouch: We asked teenagers, what if you could change one thing in a relationship with your parents What would it be. Andy Crouch: Their number one answer in just free response, the thing they most often volunteer is I wish my parents would spen
d less time on their screens and more time listening to and talking to me. Andy Crouch: So you may think your kid is you know absorbing their device they're only absorbing that device, because they have not been offered and modeled a different way and they're actually quite hungry for a different way. Andy Crouch: Tristan Harris who you know used to be chief elder sister Google now runs this kind of think tank and advocacy group the Center for human technology, I think it's called. Andy Crouch:
back when snapchat was the dominant thing before tick tock. Andy Crouch: snapchat was like nothing in high schools, you would give talks in high schools and there's this thing on snapchat called streaks where you have to like send your best friend a street a snap every day. Andy Crouch: And it keeps track like have you kept up your strength with your friends this way the kids feel actually a lot of pressure to show that they are engaging with their friends. Andy Crouch: So he has you would ask a
uditoriums full of high school kids how many of you keep up streets with your friends and every hand in the room goes up and then he says okay close your eyes how many of you wish, you could stop. Michael Handler: Every hand goes up. Andy Crouch: it's not like they love it they feel pressure to use it, because this is the way you connect in our world. Andy Crouch: But if we offered a different way. Andy Crouch: I mean sorry I just I don't know if you ever. Andy Crouch: Go offline going but. Andy
Crouch: yeah if there's one thing one thing that I hope i'll get across you know when i'm with you on September. Andy Crouch: I would love for us to bury the idea that there's such a thing as a digital native. Andy Crouch: So he's a very common phrase for this generation Oh well, you know gen Z they're digital natives they exercise, you know they're immigrants to the world of technology, but for gen Z, this is just the natural language and I just really want to try to. Andy Crouch: persuade peo
ple that no one no human being comes into the world looking for a screen, the first thing we were looking for was a face, we were looking for connection with another person. Andy Crouch: And, and the truth is anyone who makes the to adulthood found some kind of connection with another person. Andy Crouch: But what happens is at moments of distress at moments when the parents need a break at moments, in other words were either the child's distressed or the parents are distressed or both. Andy Cro
uch: and increasingly early we hand kid screens and the screens are designed to be super easy to use and super responsive to children in a way, frankly, that human beings are not so they're easier for kids. Andy Crouch: And kids start to acclimate and they do learn very quickly, how to kind of get what they want and need from that screen, so in that sense they're very fluent in in this digital medium, but no one's no one's a native like nobody started out thinking boy show me the iPad. Andy Crou
ch: yeah all started saying. Andy Crouch: Essentially, show me mom and then show me dad and show me grandma and show me my brother and and it was only when. Andy Crouch: Those relationships were disrupted and rupture happened, even the just the benign rupture of mom leaves for a while and you start crying and and then somebody handed them a screen to say here this calm down if I give you this, but we start with no digital natives no digital natives. Ross Cochran: Well, we can be the title of the
episode here um. Ross Cochran: well. Ross Cochran: I love that language, because i've got a six year old and a two and a half year old. Ross Cochran: right and as you're describing this i'm thinking about all of those times. Ross Cochran: Where you're right the outward behavior suggest a level of comfort. Ross Cochran: A level of this is working. Ross Cochran: Yes, but of course it's because in those moments are not presented with an actually more natural alternative and i'm curious for you, yo
u know. Ross Cochran: I want to Double Click on that a little bit, because I think one of the things that you and your wife made such a clear choice for with for your family was to live a different rhythm was to prioritize a different rhythm and this was several years ago, you know your kids are older now. Ross Cochran: That resulted, I think, in different fruit i'm curious when you look at your kids are now grown, are you able to articulate what you see in them, because of the choices that you
guys made personally. Ross Cochran: That might be different than what we all perceive to be the sort of high anxiety high pressures that you were speaking to the most gen Z fields hmm. Andy Crouch: Well, of course, it's hard, I mean i've only got two data points, I have one son, so you know they are, they are very unique creatures. Andy Crouch: uh huh it's hard to know what to a true and and I don't know how much credit, we can take honestly. Andy Crouch: At the same time well i'll tell you i'll
tell you a general thing and then a story. Andy Crouch: What I it's like my children and young adults now 25 and 21 about to turn 22 so what I see in them now is. Andy Crouch: A freedom that they themselves would say most of their friends don't have with respect to technology they might my kids use. Andy Crouch: You know they're very tapped my daughter took a Python class in college my son is super quick with this kind of stuff they're you know they're very tech literate in a way. Andy Crouch:
Interestingly, neither of them is really on social media like they're on social media less than I am they're more radical than. Andy Crouch: I am about these things, but really what I would characterize them as having is just a freedom to use or not use and and a lack of a sense of pressure that a lot of their friends feel. Andy Crouch: I i'll tell you a quick story, I think it was when they were 16 and 13 there's basically three years apart, we were driving somewhere and my daughter is the othe
r one was telling her older older brother in the backseat. Andy Crouch: about how hard it was to be middle school and not know what any of the TV shows were that her friends were talking. Andy Crouch: To like. Andy Crouch: Problems like you, if you if you raise your kids in a really super tech wise way, I would say they are not going to be cool in the US. Andy Crouch: They are going to be not laughing at jokes that the other people get because they just don't have all the cultural reference righ
t so it's all there'll be awkward. Andy Crouch: And my kids I think my kids would have been awkward, no matter what honestly, so this is, you know it's hard and then middle school is just awkward for everybody. Andy Crouch: So amy's kind of describing this to her older brother who's only 16 minute and gathering are listening, you know to this conversation, as we drive long until he says well any, it is hard but. Andy Crouch: The reason it's hard is that our parents are actually intentional and t
hey are actually seeking to create good for us, I think this is pretty pretty closely pure quote here. Andy Crouch: And so, while it's hard right now it's going to be good later hi gathered are listening I I don't remember, we really do this but I imagine us like secretly just. Ross Cochran: Sign oh yeah. five. Michael Handler: You speak to that point. Andy Crouch: it's done our job, our job here is done. Andy Crouch: But what I loved was that I know you said use this word I just loved it my 16
year old use this word intentional because. Andy Crouch: That probably is the biggest fruit that we've seen in our kids is that they just have been on their own thoughtful. Andy Crouch: my daughter went off to a super high pressure university very you know the kinds of people like scrambled to get their kids and she got in, but what we worried about as she went was. Andy Crouch: How that it's just like this pressure cooker of ambition and all kinds of idols and honestly I dropped her off at abou
t what have I haven't been at school, I went to so I knew how bad it was. Andy Crouch: Like man it's only gotten worse, and I will tell you like so she chose Sabbath from the very we practice Sabbath as a family one day a week, where we have. Andy Crouch: to know work nothing that gives a status significant supervision and also when we turn off anything with the switch for the whole day. Andy Crouch: And my daughter just first week of college decide to do that herself now nobody at her school is
doing this. Andy Crouch: But she has gone through four years at this, you know Ivy league school with such freedom and peace and her friends call her the happy one they're like you're the only happy person we know at the school. Andy Crouch: And it's just so encouraging now again, you know how much of that is choices we know it's hard to say, but it can't have hurt and. yeah. Andy Crouch: And I I look at families, you know you go out to dinner somewhere and you see these families where the pare
nts are maybe talking but the kids maybe younger kids like your address, or on devices to keep them quiet at dinner. Andy Crouch: And I just want to say I know why you're doing that it's so much easier now to just hand them that glowing rectangle now. Andy Crouch: But I just wish you could picture that if you would do the hard thing out of not turning to the going rectangle and figuring out how to involve them even at this dinner, or maybe you don't try to go to the dinner at the stage. Andy Cro
uch: I just wish you could see what it's like for our family to go out to dinner, and the conversations we have with our teenage head with our teenagers all through their teenage years now that we have in their 20s like it's so rich I don't think you'll have that. Andy Crouch: If you never practice when they're young, so you either get easy now hard later or hard now easy later and I just I wish I could just help people imagine how. Andy Crouch: Easy is the wrong word. Andy Crouch: Hard later ho
w not hard now good later how. yeah. Ross Cochran: yeah well I think it's important for people to hear too. Ross Cochran: I love the language of freedom and I love that your daughter is known as the happy one, because that is such a like. Ross Cochran: Everyone who's watching this everyone who's listening to this they desire that for their kids the kids in the Community, like across the board, and I think it's important to articulate the ways in which being intentional making a different decisio
n can yield those results. Ross Cochran: down the line, and as we would say around here like an impact, a lasting faith. Andy Crouch: yeah. Ross Cochran: You know i'm i'm curious to a lot of people who are going to interact with us our church leaders or people who particularly are. Ross Cochran: You know involved in a children's ministry space or a child discipleship space trying to help do exactly what you're articulating help the kids in the parents in their communities. Ross Cochran: Be more
intentional in their discipleship and in their formation, how do that How does that sort of support role continue to do that intentional work of relationships, because we're only you know we're only seeing them every so often we're not in the home with them. Ross Cochran: What is that sort of group. Ross Cochran: Balance that leaders can strive for. Andy Crouch: Well, a couple thoughts um. Andy Crouch: I don't know which order to do these in I mean one is, and I know that you all think about thi
s, we do just have to recognize any any ministry to children a stage, including through the teenagers. Andy Crouch: is only effective in so far, and to some extent as its ministry to the parents with the parents and so. Andy Crouch: Seeing the parents as part of your mandate now you have limited perhaps con even less contact with them in some cases i'm sure, then you do with their their children, but. Andy Crouch: Ultimately, most of what has to be frankly what has to be changed if I can put thi
s way in our world is is the behavior of the grownups not to be angry at the kids with respect i'm thinking about devices and screens in particular. Andy Crouch: it's a much bigger problem that mom and dad are taking their phone to bed, and even if their kids taking the front of it to be totally honest because. Andy Crouch: If mom and dad weren't taking their phone to bed mom and dad would be aware, more deeply of what's going on in their child's life and then you would realize how bad, it is th
at their daughter or son is taking their funding, but like just. Andy Crouch: But, but if the parents are checked out and if the parents are not engaged then honestly no rules or anything else can help that much at home so. Andy Crouch: As possible just attending to and encouraging parents to to be willing to do things that are uncomfortable, including in their own lives would be good, but. Andy Crouch: Back to that setting where you get the chance to be meaningfully involved in a child's life.
Andy Crouch: This is like probably elementary for you and everybody you work with, but I just think a little bit of genuine attention goes a really long way. Andy Crouch: I. Andy Crouch: I was asked Recently I was telling a group of managers like people work lead teams at work and they're like, how can I show my my team. Andy Crouch: Christian love, I said, well, I I don't think you can do it directly like I don't think you. Andy Crouch: I don't know you can try conjuring up a feeling of Christi
an love towards your team and just hoping it like oozes out but assuming that may not work. Andy Crouch: I really think what you need to do is show them attention and and back to a word we use thriller intention so first of all, just attending. Andy Crouch: just paying attention to what it's like to be this person whether it's a four year old person or a 14 year old person. Andy Crouch: And mirroring that back to them and just naming Oh, you seem really proud of yourself, for what you did today
or you seem sad sad in a different way than usual or in or just that basic. Andy Crouch: connection that says, I actually see you i'm taking the time to notice what's going on for you i'm feeling a little bit of what you're feeling. Andy Crouch: I just think that's incredibly powerful and and then intention is, and I have something good for you, I thought about what's good for you and and i'd like to show you what it is and can we do it together. Andy Crouch: In it's interesting in my in this ne
w book The life we're looking for I end by talking about how powerful. Andy Crouch: These relationships of love are that shape our lives and sometimes their relationships with our parents, but sometimes they're not. Andy Crouch: So all of us has like a genealogical biological genealogical tree. Andy Crouch: But I actually think anyone who ends up falling Jesus has another genealogical tree, which is the tree of personal love that passed on from generation to generation, and it may or may not. An
dy Crouch: It for any given person, it may or may not have come through their family, because families are messy and complicated. Andy Crouch: And I write it and I write in the book about the first person who showed me the love of Jesus in a way that I really got it and her name was Sylvia edwards and she was my Sunday school teacher and I think third grade, maybe, third and fourth grade. Andy Crouch: And I was not, I was raised in a very nominal home I we were kind of in a mainline Protestant e
nvironment where my parents didn't necessarily practice the faith in in notable ways at home, I wouldn't have. Andy Crouch: been able to articulate like how what our family believed, but we did go to church and they dropped me off at Sunday school, you know, and you know also I got basically zero religious instruction at home that I can remember. Andy Crouch: But Sylvia edwards hate it I I can I can picture the Sunday school room and i'm 54 years old, so this is like 50 almost 50 years later. An
dy Crouch: I can picture the Sunday score I can picture her I can picture her face I can sense the tone of her voice, and it was presence attention and patients love. Andy Crouch: room for conversation and and some information, like some stories and some perspectives that that I don't know how much I absorbed, but it was just enough to set me on this journey. Andy Crouch: That later on in my high school years when when I was presented with the Gospel I was like Oh yes, this is it, this is what I
actually want but third, fourth grade was huge yeah and it's You know, as you know, it's it's the content doesn't hurt but it's not the content. Michael Handler: it's the right yeah. Andy Crouch: it's the presence it's the patient's the attention the intention. Michael Handler: Absolutely, you know. Michael Handler: Any you bring up something there that we find to be true, no matter if it's hearing you know the US around the world and. Michael Handler: At one we've written about it a lot it's w
hat we call our three be philosophy of ministry these three views aren't like intellectual property or anything like that, but, but what you're talking about here as a child in yourself. Michael Handler: who found a sense of belonging right, and you can recall that that Community that was created that Sylvia created that like that you felt an I heart to heart connection with. Michael Handler: And you know, I find it to be very ironic that social media does anything except to make us more social,
you know it's it's it's not helping us connect at a heart level. Michael Handler: This the medium of the screen, while incredibly helpful in some regards certainly does not provide a level of empathy where we're able to sense the pain or emotion. Michael Handler: Deep connection there of with whomever it is that we might be speaking to, and I think what you touch on, there is something that for many of us like you said, who who may be found. Michael Handler: who came to faith in Jesus Christ as
a child, we may not remember this specific prayer I can almost guarantee you and none of us probably remember a specific sermon but there's probably to your point there a genealogy of faith. Michael Handler: That was passed on to us through. Michael Handler: Unity, a specific people that we can recall yeah it's you know it shouldn't surprise us either because we go back to the scriptures and we see Paul talking about his spiritual children, you know. Michael Handler: Children nitrate. Michael H
andler: And, and this is what we can experience here today as well with you know as we lead and as we disciple others we form children and young people and and I think. Michael Handler: As as you talk about you know the the humanity, if you will, the connection the the fact that you know the heart soul mind strength entity or essence of humanity of we as people. Michael Handler: We can too often just want to go to the results, the easy connection, if you will i'll just. Michael Handler: You know
Ping them on social media or i'll do this thing or whatever else and we lose that actual i'd I heart to heart connection that that really is where formation discipleship whatever we want to call it takes place there's no shortcut there's no easy button for that at all. Andy Crouch: Actually, exactly oh man you're gonna love the last chapter of my book, I. Think. Michael Handler: Nothing right away, but yeah I mean yeah you're. Michael Handler: not allowed. Andy Crouch: To the last chapter know
you're skipping through what and but yes completely completely. Andy Crouch: And I think what we you know part of what we needed a technological world, I mean I would actually say what i've been kind of a technological empire like it dominates our world it determines the. Andy Crouch: Just like the Roman Empire in so many ways, determine to the limits of what could people could imagine as technology has done it for us and, in some ways, what we need is the courage. Andy Crouch: To just continue
to believe that that what you were just talking about is what really matters it's not how tech savvy you are it's not how impressive your graphics are it's not. Andy Crouch: You know how much social media retreat because, in fact, all that is is actually subservient to the power of. Andy Crouch: Really in the book I call it the power of Mammon which which I take to be the kind of driving will behind the development of technology that is not about human flourishing is not the best for people. And
y Crouch: And we have to maintain. Andy Crouch: kind of the the. Ross Cochran: fortitude to say. Andy Crouch: In this world that is prioritizing so many other. Andy Crouch: Things and rewarding so many other things we're going to keep doing this thing yeah um and I, you know it strikes me, I would be interesting how you think guys think about this. Andy Crouch: It strikes me that in the first half of the age range you all focus on or or let's just think about that four to 14 where they're most r
eceptive. Andy Crouch: On the attention and the presence and the belonging in a way, is enough like I think kids just they they open up like flowers when you offer that to them. Andy Crouch: There is this transition in middle school where we also have to if you haven't done the formative work of like. Andy Crouch: In a sense, giving them strategies of resistance and a better way and, like a roadmap for a different way through adolescence, I think. Andy Crouch: No matter how beautiful those child
hood experiences, were they get swept up in this mediated world. Andy Crouch: Which realistically for the foreseeable future, all their friends are in meshed in and so all their sense of social significance and statuses in meshed in it. Andy Crouch: And I feel like there's there's like the nurturing of childhood, but then there's also like I feel like we probably need some new rites of passage. Andy Crouch: Like it's 12 and 13 that are like okay here's how you are going to survive the next 1010
years of stupidity. Andy Crouch: The culture is selling you that tick tock incorporated wants to sweep you up in and we're going to give you like some really robust. Andy Crouch: You know it's almost like there was a time for nurturing now there's a time for like prepare for battle because. Andy Crouch: it's going to feel hard you're going to feel awkward you're going to feel different and guess what. Andy Crouch: Our family is different Jesus family is different it's okay to be different it's a
ctually amazing because we get access to a kind of life that all of our neighbors are longing for all your friends secretly want it, but they won't ever say it, because they're afraid it's not there. Michael Handler: And yeah. Andy Crouch: So anyway, I don't know how does that strike you like the additional it's not just nurture at some point right. Michael Handler: Absolutely, well, I mean that belonging goes into believing and upcoming right. Michael Handler: longing might. Michael Handler: cr
eate the space. Michael Handler: To have a conversation that I now get to tell you about my story of Jesus how I came to meet Jesus how Jesus has transformed my life and. Michael Handler: With the hopes of the Holy Spirit at that moment or putting those moments together would draw you to faith in Christ right and then it's just like okay. Michael Handler: Now let's walk together, you know let's walk together, let me show you how to how to live life and. Michael Handler: it's challenging as a par
ent it's challenging as a ministry leader to because you only get to Ross this point so much time. Michael Handler: But if you can, if you can separate yourself from that glowing rectangle as you call it right, if you can, if you can put that down if you can limit. Michael Handler: Not because it's necessarily like you know that that collection of circuits and wires is inherently bad, but if you can at least just say look this this. Michael Handler: This time with you, you know person who i'm an
established relationship with is more important like, let me just tell you the stories of what Jesus has done for me in this regard. Michael Handler: I hear my kids right outside my door so Ross i'm gonna turn this question. Andy Crouch: Over to you real quick. Michael Handler: yeah that's about to happen here. Ross Cochran: that's hilarious well because I think, and I would just encourage people if you interact with any of andy's work, this is what it's like right now right. Ross Cochran: you'
re going to see this is not some sort of technological bashing right, like everything we're talking about is about human flourishing it's about. Ross Cochran: john 1010 life to the full, and I think that's part of why your work resonates so much is is that sort of idea that you were just speaking to is that what you say to people who want to go back. Ross Cochran: Like I think there's often this new style job, particularly that. Ross Cochran: Are generations have of like oh If only we could leav
e ministry before kids headphones or you know those those kinds of conversations and just candidly I. Ross Cochran: Personally, to speak for myself and not for one I feel like that's not the the best use of your energy and I love how you're able to articulate yet know being into the fact that what we're offering is better than anything you're going to get on that glory rectangle. Andy Crouch: yeah. Andy Crouch: yeah I understand the nostalgia. Andy Crouch: But it's a luxury we can't really affor
d for very long. I think. Andy Crouch: I would suggest responding, not with nostalgia because look we're not what whatever is going to happen we're going to. Andy Crouch: I hope I hope this is not the game that our culture continues to play, but if that game is going to change it's not going to be by trying to rewind it's going to be redesigned and designing something different and better and. Andy Crouch: You know just in X. Andy Crouch: X one I guess Jesus been raised from the dead. Andy Crouc
h: The disciples are like so Lord is now when you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel, like they're thinking rewind. Ross Cochran: Right they're like yes. Andy Crouch: Going back. Andy Crouch: To the dividend king. Andy Crouch: we're going to throw off the empire and he's like a it's not for you to know like what is going to happen, but I will tell you this you're going to be my witnesses in Judea. Andy Crouch: Samaria and to the ends of the earth and he's basically saying you are thinking
way too small, if your idea is going back. Andy Crouch: And in fact it's going for I don't know if Jesus knows this, because even says the son, the father doesn't even apparently bother to tell the sun. Ross Cochran: When. Andy Crouch: The whole thing is going to wrap up. Andy Crouch: Jesus already the sun just never asked it sounds like okay that's that's dad's job you know. Ross Cochran: But he. Andy Crouch: But that's a really good point but the truth is and she's this does get glimpses of t
his it's going to be 400 years before this Roman Empire comes around to the witness of the Christians and along the way, a lot of blood is going to be showing. Ross Cochran: them a lot. Andy Crouch: is going to seem to go wrong, but at the same time, this mustard seed is going to be growing in ways that they just can't imagine if they're thinking of stylistically. Andy Crouch: So i'm. Andy Crouch: i'm in it for a 400 years story here, where we where we turn around. Andy Crouch: The history of we
stern culture and its desire for magic we haven't talked about that word but that's what's behind all this, the power of Mammon which really started to take over in the 14th century I like we need to be part of our new movement. Andy Crouch: That 400 years from now there's been some meaningful movement. Andy Crouch: away from this false human dream that has driven the whole history of the West. Andy Crouch: So I don't have time to be nostalgic about you know the 1960s, when kids stayed out until
dusk and you know just came home for dinner, I mean I there were some beautiful things about that, but of course that world had some. Andy Crouch: Some shadow sides. Big shadow sides. Andy Crouch: I would suggest what to do with the current moment is lament like it is it's bad it's really bad that the the conditions, your your kids are coming into your ministry environment with should be lamented and we should be crying out to God for how. Ross Cochran: much this is distorting human. Andy Crouc
h: Development and how much damage it's doing but lament is different from Estelle john lament brings. Ross Cochran: A cry to God like. Andy Crouch: God, you must see this why haven't you acted more quickly, what are you doing. Andy Crouch: But also expresses. Ross Cochran: trusted God. Andy Crouch: And yet, you are at work, you brought me out of my mother's womb, and you taught me when I was a child, and now that i'm old and Gray headed i'm going to tell the next. Ross Cochran: generation like.
Andy Crouch: it's this. Andy Crouch: Comprehensive prayer of dissatisfaction with what's happening now, which is totally fine to feel, but then offering I commit myself to you, I offer myself to you in this world that is so messed up. Andy Crouch: And I just promised that will lead to more generative possibilities than wishing that were another way does that make sense. Ross Cochran: It absolutely does, I asked about nostalgia, because I. Ross Cochran: I want to connect the dots for people to y
ou know so much of your work, even before this book was. Ross Cochran: Even just built around the Sabbath right the way that you talk about the Sabbath the way that you made that such a natural part of your personal famous rhythm. Ross Cochran: It was obvious to me, you have this deep connection to the early church and I know this this book particularly goes. Ross Cochran: deep into it and if folks I just want to remind folks that if you want to hear more from ED not only should you check out hi
s book and go to his website, but also, you should go to tell this object forum COM where. Ross Cochran: Andy is going to be one of our faculty members, where you can be a national or online from September 22 or 23rd. Ross Cochran: But you talk about the early church a lot and I think it's important for people understand that you know, yes we're in this for the 400 years but we've already been provided examples on. Andy Crouch: Yes. Ross Cochran: What it means to live that way can you articulate
that more for people who are with us right now. Andy Crouch: Oh man. Andy Crouch: yeah you know um. Andy Crouch: I think one I don't know if this is what you're. Andy Crouch: Hoping i'll say but. Andy Crouch: One thing I think we can actually do in our study of the Bible is. Andy Crouch: In one sense, read it more imaginatively with respect to the people in the Bible. Andy Crouch: which is to say, I think we sometimes so my this next book it's really built on one chapter, in particular, which i
s Romans 16 which I think of as the least preached on chapter in the most preached on book in the new assessments aroma to. Andy Crouch: All these sermons or Romans it's. Andy Crouch: This incredibly rich theological book, but then there's this thing around and 16 where Paul basically the whole chapter is just called greeting people. Andy Crouch: And we don't spend much time on this because we read this list of names and we don't even know how to pronounce most of them and we get just tiny littl
e details, but not a lot about them. Andy Crouch: And I think we skip over those things, just like we skipped over the genealogies at the beginning of Matthew and Luke and. Andy Crouch: I think going back and and doing the patient work too, and you can do this with kids so well, especially I mean maybe not four year olds but definitely eight year olds definitely 14 year olds, you can take a person. Andy Crouch: And just try to like iterative Lee imagine what was it like to be that person and beg
in to recognize, even though they lived in a they did live in a very different world from us with very different assumptions and. Andy Crouch: We shouldn't minimize the cultural distance between us and them at the same time, and this is like the genius of the word of God, this because it's in dwelt by the Holy Spirit because it's not just one more ancient texts. Andy Crouch: When you do that imagine of work, you start to realize like these people have clues for me about how to live in my world a
nd the things that I face, there are some amazing analogues to what they faced. Andy Crouch: So I think a a practice that one of the best things I did in my whole life was, I think it was 10 years in a row. Andy Crouch: There was nine years nine years in a row every January I would sit down with a group of first year students at Harvard College as it happened as it happened that's why I was in campus Ministry. Andy Crouch: And we would start with a fresh manuscript at the gospel of mark double s
paced know verse number is no chapter numbers just the English text of the gospel of mark. Andy Crouch: On plane paper and for a year, we would study it. Andy Crouch: And the main thing we did was imagine it take every moment and imaginatively enter it and try to understand what was it like to be gyrus approach and Jesus because it's 12 year old is a dying. Andy Crouch: And then what's it like for it to be gyrus when this random woman has touched Jesus and suddenly Jesus is having this extended
conversation with her while your daughter is dying. Andy Crouch: And then what's it like to be cherished when somebody comes to your House and says actually shouldn't trouble the teacher anymore she's dead. Andy Crouch: And then, what you know, like and live with these people and you start to realize I had this professor and somebody who said, a very interesting thing he said, all of us are one generation away. Andy Crouch: From from the eyewitnesses to Jesus because they told their stories and
people wrote them down Peter told mark apparently and mark wrote it down. Andy Crouch: Luca company Paul Luke collected all these stories and and they were the people who wrote it down where maximum one generation so even though there's 2000 years between us in another way. Andy Crouch: These stories we are hearing like one one click away from the people who actually touched answered to hurt and felt and all that. Andy Crouch: So, allowing ourselves to be imaginatively like to imagine the enter
their world and getting kids to practice this because, initially, this text will seem. Andy Crouch: distant and difficult and we would see this also with our student or Harvard students every. Andy Crouch: January they're like well i'm kind of Krishna and know what the text says or or i'm not very Christian I don't get it like there's this there's this instinct just move on and kind of give up, either because you think you know what it says, or you think you don't. Andy Crouch: But if you stick
with it it's just transformative. Andy Crouch: So I don't know i'm not sure what. Andy Crouch: you're looking for, but it just feels like that is no work look it's enter into that text imagine it realize you're not so far from it, and it's written in such a way, and has the inspiration of the spirit to like come alive, every time somebody takes it seriously it's going to come alive. Ross Cochran: yeah no look at I think it's just another example of why you're one of my favorite people so. Andy C
rouch: is really. Andy Crouch: The point of this conversation is just. Michael Handler: A damn yeah. Michael Handler: yeah Ross nice people merge that he will send your way after. Andy Crouch: I left the desert. Michael Handler: Well, any I know that you you're you're joining us again in September at the child established before September I should say in that shot discipleship forum. Michael Handler: Could you give us even a little bit of a preview of what we might hear from you for those who ar
e either attending in person in nashville or online, whether on their own, or with a group at their church. Andy Crouch: yeah well, I mean obviously there's been quite a few previews along the way here I don't know that this point that it's not like I have like 20 more. Ross Cochran: new ideas yeah. Michael Handler: How do you get through all the appetizers tell us. About. Andy Crouch: But I will try to put together a picture for us of. Andy Crouch: A kind of a parallel picture of what's happeni
ng in our world with technology. Andy Crouch: What are the really important features of it there's things we fixate on like. Andy Crouch: You know, certainly. Andy Crouch: Apps or platforms and to me, those are like the EPA phenomenon, the surface, like we really need to look at the deep story so i'm going to try to help us just understand what the deep. Ross Cochran: story is. Andy Crouch: And then actually as we've just been talking about draw a kind of parallel to the the deep story that was
playing itself out in the first century, when the Jesus movement began. Andy Crouch: Which is where this chain of transmission started and and while it's not perfectly parallel, it is amazing how much I mean I think it's it's like the great providential gift of God that the faith arose in the midst of a absolutely dominating total empire that that. Andy Crouch: filled the known world and we live in the same kind of thing today. Andy Crouch: Except it's technology, rather than Caesar that runs. A
ndy Crouch: But, but the great hope. Andy Crouch: here is that the faith outlasted that empire and it's going to outlast this empire and there are some strategies that we can observe and adopt from the first Christians. Andy Crouch: That made disciples that created this this. Andy Crouch: belief and behavior you know and belonging that could last for we're at 100 generations so far, but God has promised 1000 those who love me and keep my commandments 1000. Andy Crouch: So i'll try to draw the pa
rallels and give us some little bit of a roadmap of the part we play in getting seeing god's promise come true, I mean God is the one who's going to keep his promise, but we have this amazing privilege of. Ross Cochran: Joining him. Andy Crouch: And being part of. Michael Handler: 1000 generation story. Andy Crouch: So i'll try to give some pointers toward that. Michael Handler: end to you, you have probably forgotten more technology than some of. Andy Crouch: US have learned about. Michael Hand
ler: A and yet you seem like one of the most hopeful people as it relates to the promises of God coming true. Michael Handler: And the fact that they will outlast this kind of technological empire, if you will, how can we, how can we in this in this season, whether we have a familiarity or fear of technology. Michael Handler: How can we kind of start adopting that attitude rightly and and live it out in our own you know ministries and applications of our faith mm. hmm. Andy Crouch: Well, I don't
know if this is. Andy Crouch: The only answer. Andy Crouch: I mean, first just. Keep. Andy Crouch: You know, we we have an obligation. Andy Crouch: it's a terrifying thing to say, we have an obligation obligation to become saints, that is, we have obligations quite the right word, but we are calling a vocation to become totally transfigured by reality of Jesus the love of God, the power of the spirit. Andy Crouch: That that amazing line from the monastic Father acquire the Holy Spirit and you w
ill save 1000 around you like that's our task so. Andy Crouch: Like don't forget like this is not about a technical adjustment of our lives or getting some more information or getting a new perspective or you know, God forbid just reading another book. Andy Crouch: it's it's about the pursuit of ourselves being transformed we can't offer anything we don't haven't received and that involves risk vulnerability suffering. Andy Crouch: Sometimes martyrdom certainly laying down our lives in very prof
ound ways and. Andy Crouch: Those who have sacrificed and those who have not choosing the easy comfortable way are those who actually live, knowing that God is good that God rescues that God provides, and I think there's hope and i'm like 1% of the way on the journey, maybe. Andy Crouch: But that's the journey i'm on i'm i'm serious about it, I don't always get it right and I often fall off the path, but. Andy Crouch: that's, the first thing. Andy Crouch: I you know back to something I said earl
ier than maybe sound a little odd and maybe it sounds even more odd in this context, I actually think the practice of lament. Andy Crouch: Like taking the pattern of the Psalms and learning to really pray the Psalms I picked this up if people were interested I did an interview with a member of our community of practice named Donna Harris who's this incredible venture capitalist but also incredible like. Andy Crouch: woman of God honestly incredible filled with the Holy Spirit teacher. Andy Crouc
h: And she taught a group of our entrepreneurs, a practice of lament as a means to creative action in the world and and Donna has this just fascinating idea that. Andy Crouch: Real creativity emerges, not from feeling feeling happy and optimistic about the world but actually lamenting some aspect of the world. Andy Crouch: But she. Andy Crouch: And so you can, if you were interested there's a podcast interview I did, where she kind of lays out the steps that you have to go through little pattern
on the Psalms of complaint and outcry, but also promise and reassurance and. Andy Crouch: there's all these kind of 10 there's a template you can use. Andy Crouch: And I have found that incredibly helpful because there are things in the world to lament there are things in my own story to lament things that have happened to people around me to limit and if I don't lament them. Andy Crouch: I do become anxious and depressed. Andy Crouch: But but strangely I bring all this foley to God, with no su
garcoating it know minimizing it. Andy Crouch: I will just I the fruit of the spirit, whatever fruit of the spirit, you see, in me and I don't assume it's a lot, but if it's more than zero, it is the fruit of having had these incredibly honest encounters with God, and so I think learning. Andy Crouch: A more honest life with. Andy Crouch: God will lead to God pouring out riches on us that allow us to be hopeful and loving, even when, objectively speaking, there's every reason in the world to be
despairing and and angry and cynical. Andy Crouch: But we don't have to be. Andy Crouch: And there's another way and and we can be transformed and as we're transformed we're going to be. Andy Crouch: agents of transformation for other people and then that's a kind of a virtuous cycle like you just start to believe. Andy Crouch: The world is is in grave grave shape without a savior, but it has a savior and we've been rescued yeah like we got to be part of this is just the most amazing thing that
we got we got to be part of the story. Ross Cochran: amen amen well anyway Thank you so much for your time, those of you who are with us live as. Ross Cochran: we're having this conversation, thank you for your time, I hope you leave this as encouraged and. Ross Cochran: ready to talk to the Hill, as I do, because i'm just so grateful that we're going to get to. Ross Cochran: That you know we're going to hear more from you and that more of our Community is going to hear from you at the job sculp
ture form in September so Andy Thank you so much for your ministry, thank you for all that you do. Ross Cochran: And for everybody, I hope you guys have a great rest of your day we will talk to you next time. Andy Crouch: Right so great to be with you guys. Michael Handler: Thanks take care thanks Mike.
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