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Can Biology Be Reduced To Physics?

"Physics is the most fundamental and all-inclusive of the sciences." Or is it? Here's how reductionism breaks down. Twitter: https://twitter.com/subanima_ Mastodon: @subanima@mathstodon.xyz Website (and mailing list): https://subanima.org SOURCES + FURTHER READING: https://www.subanima.org/biology-breaks-physics/ #physics #biology #maths

SubAnima

1 year ago

“Physics is the most fundamental and all-inclusive of the sciences, … everything that living things do can be understood in terms of the jigglings and wigglings of atoms." Is a quote from Richard Feynman in the third lecture in his famous series. This reductionist point of view is pretty common today and we can see it in everything from XKCD comics to Sabine Hossenfelder's new book 'Existential Physics'. If we could just reexpress organisms, economies and social interactions at the atomic level
and apply the laws of physics with a big enough computer, we’d know everything that happens at the higher levels. And in that sense, all the interesting stuff in the universe only really happens at the bottom. At least, that’s what the physicists tell us. And unfortunately for them, they’re wrong. The way we study complex systems, like those in biology, simply can’t be reduced to physics. I know that sounds pretty radical, but hear me out and I’ll explain. In 1687, Isaac Newton published his 'Pr
incipia Mathematica' which would go on to lay the foundations of modern physics. The picture we get of matter from Newton is that it doesn't do anything by itself. That's his first law. If it does happen to move in a particular way, then we know that it must be under the influence of some kind of external force. But when we look at the biological world, matter seems to move by itself all the time. In this beautiful film of the development of the alpine newt, Jan van Ijken shows us just how non-N
ewtonian biology appears: cells fold in on themselves and atoms stop bumping around randomly and start swimming together as one little tadpole. As Denis Walsh puts it more poetically: "If Newton’s laws lay down the rules by which matter conducts itself, organisms flout them flagrantly." Of course, I'm not saying that there are any new forces involved in the development of living systems, like the vitalists claimed, just that we might need to take a different perspective compared to the Newtonian
paradigm. One different idea we can use is the concept of top-down causation. Instead of saying that the jigglings of atoms alone cause the newt to move (which is the standard bottom-up perspective). We also need to look at the reverse direction: the atoms are only moving in the way that they are because they happen to be in a newt. This isn't even that radical. The atoms in this GIF that I keep showing are moving in the way that they are *because* they are bounded by this square box. If the bo
x were a different shape, or missing one of its sides, the atoms would behave differently. This is very simple top-down causation. If we ignore all these top-down causes, we'll miss so much of the interesting stuff that happens in our universe. Any form of higher-level organization will be invisible to us, because, at the scale of atoms alone, we can't see anything really. The organism disappears entirely. Sure, if we wanted to build a giant supercomputer to simulate features of the biological w
orld at the level of atoms, we might be able to make some predictions about where collections of atoms would end up. But we wouldn't be able to understand much about biology at all. Take this example, from one of my university lecturers Kristian Camilleri. Say we wanted to understand 'what caused WW1?'. If we start our explanation with "So you see there were a bunch of atoms over here, that assembled themselves into a 3D structure we call a bullet," we're not going to get very far. We clearly ne
ed higher level historical explanations like imperialism, nationalism, the system of alliances and so on. This happens to be the right perspective for generating knowledge in this case. And it can't be reduced to physics without making our explanations meaningless. In the same way, the self-organizing characteristics of biology can't be reduced to physics without our view of the organism becoming so diluted that it hardly makes much sense. Because of the limitations of any one scientific perspec
tive, Michela Massimi calls for a multi-perspectival approach for generating knowledge. We're like blind men touching an elephant and no single perspective of ours will ever be able to give us a complete picture of the universe. Not even physics. We need all of the sciences working with each other to put together a full picture. Mathematical models of biochemistry and biophysics certainly are insightful. There's no doubt about that. But we should be cautious of thinking that we'll ever be able t
o explain the *whole* organism with them. Because, organisms also break down the classical methods of computing and mathematical modeling that we have today. The modern computer was first conceived by Alan Turing, who initially described them as 'universal computing machines'. Today we call them universal *Turing* machines and everything that your phone or computer can do, can also be done by a universal Turing machine, so they serve as a catch-all way of understanding computation. The structure
of a Turing machine is pretty simple. It takes its input on a tape of 1s and 0s, its hardware is a machine head that can slide along the tape and rewrite the numbers on it, and its software is an algorithm that tells the head what to do. This picture maps onto physics quite well where the laws seem to be static over time. So we can reasonably call them the 'software' of the particular system we are studying. But if we try to map this picture onto the organism we run into trouble. Because the qu
ote unquote 'software' of organisms changes over time. For instance, the way an embryo behaves is very different to how an adult behaves. Not only that, but the way an embryo changes to develop into an adult is somehow self-derived. So it's not a normal Turing machine, but more like one that builds itself. One of the founders of computing, John von Neumann actually designed a theoretical machine that could construct itself known as a 'universal constructor.' But up until today, no-one has manage
d to build one. The closest we've gotten are 3D printers that can print most of their parts like this one called RepRap. The problem is that you still need humans like these guys to put the parts together. I'm sure I don't have to tell you but your parents didn't have to arrange all your internal organs while you were growing in the womb. You managed to work that out all by yourself. So organisms seem to be the only real von Neumann constructors that we know to date. This has even been shown qui
te nicely by Jannie Hofmeyr who has mapped von Neumann's original design onto the biological cell (albeit with some important modifications, inspired by the work of Robert Rosen). The simple observation that organisms make themselves is nothing new and goes back to philosopher Immanuel Kant in the 18th century. Kant highlighted that the parts of the organism are only there because they are somehow related to the *whole* organism. Your neurons are there because you need to think and you have mito
chondria because your cells and really your whole body needs energy. This is top-down causation back again. Of course, the whole organism only exists because it's made up of parts. So together, we have this weird kind of circular relationship that seems to be fundamental to life and completely foreign to physics. I can't understate how strange this kind of causation is. It's something much deeper than a recursive function or a simple feedback loop. If we want to use the metaphor to computing, it
would not only be programmer and programmed, but also writer of the language the programmer is using and builder of the computer. If we want a more mathematical metaphor, it would be like an equation that could write itself by adding in new terms and even new ways of mixing terms together with new axioms. Either way, *that* is something we just don't know how to deal with. Somehow cause and effect are entirely wrapped up inside the organism in a way in which we haven't even begun to understand.
But one key consequence that we *can* get from this is that the organism has a sense of agency that puts it well beyond the domain of physics. In classical physical systems, objects are always bound by laws and their possibilities are inherently limited. Because, all the possible states of a system can always be described beforehand by what physicists call 'phase space'. But in biology, we again run into a problem. We can never define *all* the possible states of a system ahead of time. Say I g
ave you this screwdriver, you could use it to tighten a screw, poke someone, pick your nose, stir your coffee, teach a class - the possibilities are literally endless. Or more precisely, we should say that they're indefinite. We can't prestate them in advance. But if we can't define a phase space for the organism, then we have no hope of coming up with a universal law. Because, no matter what subset of possibilities we choose to describe with our law, we'll always leave something out that *is* p
ossible for the organism to reach. Every model of the organism will always be incomplete. So the future that organisms have is open in the deepest possible way. They're creative enough to construct futures that we could never imagine with any meaningful algorithm, equation or anything else. They're agents in control of their own fates, not objects limited by the phase spaces of differential equations. And thus, the tools of physics are too limited to capture the whole organism. Science isn't abo
ut reducing everything to physics or fundamental laws of nature. Physics is just one very particular tool we apes have invented to understand reality. It's a useful tool no doubt. But it's not the most fundamental, or the most important, or the most-inclusive. It's just one perspective. To even begin to understand the way the universe works with our limited brains, we need as many good perspectives as we can get. We want our toolbox to be full of different insightful ways to see the world, not j
ust a hammer that reduces everything to the jigglings and wigglings of atoms. Thanks so much for watching, this is the third video in a series on why biology is not mechanistic like physics, if you want to watch the first part on the history of the debate, you can click here. And if you wanna watch the second video on why cells aren't machines you can click here.

Comments

@AJCEJ

Newt-on

@aniksamiurrahman6365

A lot of these behavior comes from the chemical nature of molecules themselves. Not from something special. Atoms don't behave like rigid gears isn't a new paradigm, nor is "foreign to physics", nor is anything deserving this much emphasize. For example - the spectral gap of solids is similarly incomputable. I suspect this has more to do with being a complex system than being something completely something different.

@DANGJOS

This sounds to me more like a pragmatic argument. I think most would agree that it's completely unrealistic to try and build complex systems based solely on the laws of physics we know today. I think the argument from reductionists is if we had perfect knowledge of the state of every particle in the universe (and the universe itself), then there's no reason we couldn't calculate exactly what everyone and everything would do in the future and what they did in the past. Now whether that's actually true can be debated, but I think that's the main point. I don't know if I've misinterpreted you in some way though. I did watch this pretty quickly.

@luciolelampyriste2321

I'm still not sure I'm fully convinced by anti-reductionism, but I'm glad this channel exists to defend it. I think reductionism isn't to be accepted lightly either. You certainly push some important questions forward. The format is really good work too, great quality videos! I hope you keep making them, you deserve more views!

@thegreatveil5699

All natural phenomena are ultimately a part of physics, but this does not in any way imply that our current knowledge of reality or even the paradigms in which we are used to work with are in any way suitable to understanding phenomena as complex as life, evolution or adaptation, the dynamics of social interactions and so on. Certainly specific parts can be investigated with standard methods, like transport phenomena through cellular membranes, the mechanism of photosynthesis, population dynamics in various environments, but there is obviously a very big leap in going from these parts to the whole which is a living organism or a society. Clearly there is no point in picking on Newton, as the phenomenon of life is far beyond the program of classical physics and quite possibly even beyond the current paradigm of quantum mechanics. More so, the "reductionist" approach is rather anachronistic at this point and not really an all-pervasive presence anymore within the physics community. It has its place, but also its limits of applicability. As the theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate Phillip Anderson expressed quite beautifully, "more is different".

@sinfinite7516

Biology is truly one of the less understood fields at this moment

@christopherking6129

Some mistakes (afaik): 1) The phase space in physics is also infinite (reductionism ≠ finitism). 2) There are turing machines that change their own source code. The Von Neumann architecture is a circuit (in your computer right now) based on this idea, and is what allows your computer to have multiple programs that you can add, modify, and remove.

@japar107

Indeed, many fascinating phenomena can only be appreciated from larger perspectives, but that doesn't change the fact: at the end it's all physics. So, I wouldn't say "biology can't be reduced to physics", I would phrase it as "biology is not useful when reduced to physics". The movement of the atoms does depend on the shape of the box, but only because of electromagnetic interactions with the walls of said box, so a simulation of the fundamental particle interactions is sufficient to reproduce reality. Ignoring top-down causation will indeed make us miss out on more interesting explanations, but it won't change the outcome of the simulation. The universe doesn't care about top-level laws, it only evolves through its fundamental interactions.

@colbyboucher6391

This seems like an overexaggeration of what reductionism / determinism are suggesting, mostly out of... wounded pride, I guess? I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who argues for reductionism that once something is constructed out of a bunch of small particles, that new construction sort of "takes on a life of it's own", but what I think you're missing is that now, you're not looking at how one individual thing interacts but what happens when a whole bunch of things are clumped together in a fairly specific way. Physicists certainly understand that when discussing quantum physics vs. classical physics, but they'd also argue that a sufficiently complete model of a molecule at a "quantum level" would behave almost exactly like a higher-level model of it. (More accurately actually, though not in a meaningful way.) It doesn't then follow that quantum physicists are "superior scientists" who will eventually subsume all of physics into their own domain, because trying to model everything like that would be absurd; complex to the point of impossibility. The same idea applies here, suggesting that someone could model a biological organism through physics doesn't mean it'd be worth doing or that biologists aren't just as important as physicists are. (You said yourself that you're not arguing for some "other force".)

@marcoeboone

If physics is the study of an existence of anything at all, and biology operates within this existence then biology must be reducible to physics. This entire video boils down to the definition and scope of what physics is. In my opinion physics is an understanding of the states our universe can be in and how the universe transitions from state to state. Biology must be just physics.

@handyhacker11

Spirits are real, atoms are just their legos

@Omnicurious

I think you're conflating what the most useful way a human can understand a system with claims about the reality of how that system operates. You're making claims that a reductionist perspective is "wrong" and I disagree with that. I would agree that it is not necessarily the most useful framework for problem solving though. If you're playing chess against a computer you need to understand the rules of the game and what your and opponent is are doing. You don't need to understand it's programming language, Assembly, Kernel architecture, or how transistors work. And 99.99% of people reading the machine code would be completely useless. But that doesn't change the fact that every aspect of the game is dictated by those fundamental rules. I see no evidence that reductionism or physicalism is incorrect, only that the human mind is far better at understanding concepts and models.

@cloudcyclone

im loving your channel please give us more! i like how deep you go and not just the surface info, related concepts and implications and unknowns all help so much!

@ConnoisseurOfExistence

Nice video. Although, I'm not completely fond of your attempt to degrade physics. Indeed, physics is more fundamental than biology, exactly because deals with lower levels of reality. Even chemistry is more fundamental than biology. (Math and philosophy are at the very bottom). Yes, there are emergent properties in the universe, when a system is made of many and complex elements (like a living organism). Yes, these new properties can't be fully comprehended while only having in mind the properties of their parts. That can be observed in physics itself - gravity can't be explained on small scales (or dark energy for example). When you introduce new elements to a system, new properties emerge ("Merely quantitative differences, beyond a certain point, pass into qualitative changes"), which are not present on smaller scales. But there are 2 direct contradictions with what you said: 1. Organisms (and their atoms) are not so strictly separate from their environment, as you present them, it's not so clear where an organism ends and it's surrounding environment starts, they're not isolated systems. 2. Organisms still ultimately obey entropy - earth receives certain amound of energy from the sun, we (people and all living creatures) use it in all sorts of different ways (sometimes even store it in batteries), live our lives, grow, interact with each other and the planet, but on the end, sooner or later, the exact same amount of energy is irradiated away from earth in the form of heath, and contributes to the total dispersion of energy and the increasing entropy of the universe, just like any other celestial body.

@iamnotalive9920

Physics isn't just newtonian physics but also quantum mechanics, so yes everything can be deduced from physics, even if not with our current computing power (bc too much data). Just bc it can't be predicted bc it's not yet known if the universe is deterministic, doesn't mean it can't be deduced from physics. approx. at 4:10 it is said that organisms break the models of computing we have today, which is wrong. How does, that we can't yet build a reproducing molecular machine, proof or is evidence for that it 'breaks' our computing models. It maybe is far more sophisticated than we can yet dream of to create, but we know already the rules of these systems on a molecular scale. I don't want to say, that we already understand life. I want to say that we know what life is, but don't understand it. Understanding implies comprehension of the organisms on a molecular scale, and we can't do that, because biology is one of the most complex sciences out there, because in order to understand even just our nervous system we would need to have a more complex brain, which we only could understand with a more complex brain etc. Life is an immensly sophisticated category of cascades of molecules based on brownian motion, electromagnetism, entropy and other rules our universe has. We can't comprehend it yet bc of our limited brain, we can simplify and generalize to say we know what it is, just not how the macroscale results from it. I agree that Biology is not dead and indeed when it comes to comprehending and really understanding the most complex science we have yet. I also agree that it's one of the best times right now to be a biologist, especially when it comes to biotechnology. But I think u re just trying to defend ur job instead of really try to make clarifying videos. I also think that feynman did the same thing with his oversimplification without saying that it's an incredible simplification.

@johnmaris1582

I can already see a flourishing YouTube channel. I like the new insight, the editing where you really show your inspiration aka source and show us how it all relate to each other. You definitely set new standard for including source material in a video format when discussing idea.

@rarebeeph1783

with sufficient information, you can express the top-down causes as bottom-up causes. the problem is not anything that can't be fundamentally described in terms of physics; it just requires so much information to create that description that it's more practical, efficient, helpful, accurate, etc. to model biology, sociology, etc. in their own terms rather than in terms of physics. that's how i see it

@marcosamuelfabus1044

This video is interesting and well put together, but ultimately I disagree with the thesis. For instance, towards the end, the phase is not "literally infinite", just very large - it is bound by the space the organism lives in. Just because we can't describe it doesn't mean it couldn't be described in principle, especially as states are discrete at the quantum level. The talk of agency seemed imprecise and almost spiritual - how and when does the magical ability arise? Do single cells have it? Flies? Or only higher mammals? The outward appearance of individuality and agency does not lead so easily to them being fundamental. As the gas example showed, physics can deal with top down causation. It seemed to me the author wants to divorce emergent properties from physics, but I see no reason to. Yes, the toolkit of biology may be practically more appropriate - and I am all for more interdisciplinary thinking. However, I would push to have physicists (and others) focus more on emergent, higher order complex systems, not draw a line between physics and biology. After all, there is but the natural world - our distinctions are arbitrary. Many thanks for a great contribution to the discourse!

@icarocoppio9821

the quality of your videos is amazing. such relevant discussion presented with excelent arguments in this one!

@joaorobertolisboa7770

great videos! keep em coming!