Creating a Sci-Fi Action Comedy: Max Reload and the Nether Blasters

[Paul DeNigris]: A long lost Colecovision cartridge imbued with an ancient evil incantation releases [Paul DeNigris]: the forces of darkness on an unsuspecting populace, and humanity's only [Paul DeNigris]: hope is a trio of video game nerds, aided by genre legend Greg Grunberg and [Paul DeNigris]: indie film icon Kevin Smith in Max Reload and the Nether Blasters. [Paul DeNigris]: This week on the VFX for Indies podcast. [Paul DeNigris]: With me today are Scott Conditt and Jeremy Tremp, the mast

erminds behind the [Paul DeNigris]: indie sci-fi action comedy, Max Reload and the Nether Blasters, which my [Paul DeNigris]: team and I were privileged to create over 500 visual effects shots for. [Paul DeNigris]: Welcome to the podcast, guys. [Scott]: Hey, thanks Paul. [Jeremy]: Happy to be here, man. [Scott]: Yeah, man. Pleasure to be here. [Paul DeNigris]: Right on. It's been a while. Haven't seen these guys in person in quite [Paul DeNigris]: a while because they're busy. I'm busy. They are

kicking ass with their new [Paul DeNigris]: company, Offensive Marketing Group, which we will hear about. Why don't [Paul DeNigris]: you guys give us a quick overview of who you guys are individually and as a partnership. [Paul DeNigris]: Tell us a little bit about Cineforge and about your newest venture, OMG. [Jeremy]: Kick it off sir. [Scott]: Yeah I'm Scott Conditt, a 41 year old filmmaker, I like long [Scott]: walks on the beach. [Jeremy]: You're old dude. [Scott]: I know I'm aging out m

an. No so I'm [Scott]: Scott Conditt, I'm one of the creative directors and owners here at Offensive [Scott]: Marketing Group, filmmaker, creative writer, huge fan of Foxtrot X-Ray [Scott]: and Mr. Paul DeNigris, and yeah one of the directors from Max Reload [Scott]: and the Nether Blasters, a fun little sci-fi action comedy we did. few [Scott]: years back, which is now in worldwide distribution. [Jeremy]: Heck yeah, cool. Yeah, [Jeremy]: I'm Jeremy Tremp. Little bit of history, I graduated fil

m school in [Jeremy]: 08 and then just kind of jumped right into the film set. Thankfully, when I [Jeremy]: graduated film school, Michigan had just passed, I think it was like 45% film [Jeremy]: incentive. It was the highest in the nation, which was absolutely crazy. [Jeremy]: So tons of independent and like lower Hollywood productions were. filming [Jeremy]: there. And so that gave me the opportunity to get on a lot of pretty big [Jeremy]: sets as a assistant camera and then camera operator as

well on a few of [Jeremy]: those. So I was able to really dive in quickly. And then from there, I kind [Jeremy]: of pivoted and wanted to start my own thing and ended up directing and shooting [Jeremy]: hundreds of music videos and doing a lot of photography. And then we linked [Jeremy]: up in about 2015 or so and started to make some cool stuff and ultimately [Jeremy]: led to Max Reload that we started shooting in what? 2018 I think it was. [Scott]: Yeah, winter of 2018. [Jeremy]: Yeah. And n

ow I'm also a co-founder, creative director [Jeremy]: at Offensive Marketing Group, which is the bread and butter day to day at [Jeremy]: this point. Yeah. Where we take our cinematic storytelling background [Jeremy]: and put that towards marketing the outdoor sectors. So. [Scott]: And combining that [Scott]: love of cinema, right? We've had a chance to not only hit the hard edge [Scott]: of the marketing side of the firearms industry, but. We've got a chance [Scott]: to work the cinematic side

of our life into it too, working with teams [Scott]: like 8711 Action Design, the John Wick Stunt team, and things like that [Scott]: for higher end commercial spots. So bringing that studio quality flair [Scott]: to the firearms industry has really been where OMG has been different from [Scott]: most of the conventional marketing in this space today. [Paul DeNigris]: you're definitely tying in your love of geek cinema. I remember a spot [Paul DeNigris]: that you worked on not too long ago that

was very inspired by my favorite, [Paul DeNigris]: Blade Runner. I know you've done some recent stuff inspired by Predator. [Paul DeNigris]: And it's very cool to see you guys work the geeky cinema lover angle into [Paul DeNigris]: the firearm space. And I'm sure your clients eat that shit up. They [Jeremy]: Yeah, [Paul DeNigris]: must love it. [Jeremy]: that's a lot of fun. It's cool to see the audience reaction wanting more [Jeremy]: asking for longer versions, the full movie length, the vide

o game version, [Jeremy]: right? Like it's really cool to service that, you know, which that's us, [Jeremy]: right? We are those consumers as well. So we're just trying to make cool [Jeremy]: shit for people like us. [Scott]: Yeah, that's kind of the unique thing too about like [Scott]: our passion. It's sci-fi action. What are those things all inherently have infusing [Scott]: the Blade Runner? Cool guns, man. So it's It's an inseparable part of Hollywood [Scott]: that we found a way to bring

to the forefront of what we do every day here. [Paul DeNigris]: Awesome. Well, before we dive into Max Reload, give us some highlights, because [Paul DeNigris]: I know Max Reload was built on a series of steps, right? You guys were [Paul DeNigris]: kind of working towards that with some of the films that you worked on, [Paul DeNigris]: some of the shorts and documentaries and things like that. So just give us the quick [Paul DeNigris]: highlights of kind of the formative years of your partnershi

p leading towards Max. [Jeremy]: Yeah, man. When we first got together and linked up, we talked about doing, [Jeremy]: I think it was like a film competition or something like that. For Comic-Con. [Jeremy]: Yeah, and we were going to do some like Metroid versus Halo or something [Jeremy]: silly. And we just kind of came to the conclusion that was way outside [Jeremy]: of realistic, right? Because you've got to get these costumes and all these [Jeremy]: different props and whatnot. And I think we

scrapped that idea, and we decided [Jeremy]: just to make a short film. [Scott]: Yeah, and dude, Paul, you know us super well [Scott]: having been in the trenches with us for years and all the work we did on [Scott]: Max. What started out like with us going back to the drawing board saying, [Scott]: okay, that's too, too grand. Let's go back to zero independent filmmaking [Scott]: mindset. Let's work with what we've got. Let's be more realistic, quickly [Scott]: evolved and spiraled again, out

of control into, well, we've got a loose [Scott]: connection to Martin Kove from Karate Kid. And now Cobra Kai is like [Scott]: his revived fame. And this concept that we had for what was supposed to [Scott]: be a little short indie sci-fi film for Comic-Con went way too big. Then we [Scott]: went way small, scaled it back and then spiraled out of control. And [Scott]: we made a little film called Show No Mercy that had a ton of VFX in it. [Scott]: It had people getting sucked into video game, o

ld school arcade machines, [Scott]: little shootout scene and flying people in from Hollywood. And it was [Scott]: still a very small little short. But after that. and doing that the way [Scott]: that we know how, which is still super independent and scrappy and no [Scott]: budget. Wearing many hats. Wearing many hats, we're like, dude, I think [Scott]: we can work together beyond this because we survived this experience. So [Scott]: it evolved from there. [Jeremy]: Yeah. And then we jumped int

o Game Jam, the movie, [Jeremy]: which was more of an opportunity that we were given to produce for another company. [Jeremy]: And we turned that into, again, something way bigger than it initially was [Jeremy]: scoped out as, but that was cool. Cause that was kind of... a bit of a [Jeremy]: passion of ours as well because we were following independent game developers [Jeremy]: as they did a 48-hour game jam. And the winners of the game jam went out [Jeremy]: to LA to IndieCade to network with b

ig brands. And one of them ended up meeting [Jeremy]: with Oculus and that kind of... It was pretty cool. So it was cool to [Jeremy]: tell that story kind of as it evolved in a more documentarian filmmaking [Jeremy]: style rather than the narrative style. [Scott]: And a benefit of that project, the Game [Scott]: Jam, the movie documentary. One of our producers, Ben Reichert, was a professor [Scott]: at the institution where we filmed the majority of that Game Jam, which [Scott]: is where and ho

w we met you, Paul. So it all came full circle, man. Like [Scott]: every project you end up finding, it leads to something bigger and better, at [Scott]: least. That's always been our experience. [Paul DeNigris]: Absolutely. I mean, a big theme with successful independent filmmakers is finding [Paul DeNigris]: your tribe, right? Finding the like-minded individuals who are going to [Paul DeNigris]: go on the crazy journey with you to make something that you individually [Paul DeNigris]: might not

have been able to achieve, right? So yeah, that's very cool. [Paul DeNigris]: And I remember becoming aware of you guys with Game Jam and being very interested [Paul DeNigris]: in what you were doing and then seeing Show No Mercy and being like, all [Paul DeNigris]: right, these guys. They got it going on. They're leveraging all of this [Paul DeNigris]: stuff to make some really cool shit. So yeah, at that point, my team and I, [Paul DeNigris]: we were all in to work with you guys. So give us t

he back of the Blu-ray [Paul DeNigris]: cover synopsis of Max Reload. [Scott]: Yeah, so Max Reload, the Blu-ray synopsis, right? Small town video game store [Scott]: clerk accidentally unleashes the forces of evil from a cursed Colecovision game. [Max]: I know it sounds nuts. [Max]: I mean, I've been wanting to play this game since I could hold a controller. [Eugene]: I knew he'd be back. [Eugene]: I just had no idea there were no game cartridges left. [Eugene]: I knew it was only a matter of ti

me before the Harbinger found his one player, [Eugene]: the one man capable of truly unlocking... [Reggie]: My boy! The chosen one! [Eugene]: Uhh... Chosen pawn, pawn, chosen pawn. [Eugene]: And we're not even sure. [Eugene]: Maybe. [Chuck]: Unless the store is on fire this weekend. [Chuck]: I am not to be bothered when I'm jacked in. [Scott]: And this game was kind of an urban legend, much like Polybius or some [Scott]: of these games that if you're really into gaming and nerd culture. are the

[Scott]: things that should not be or the things that almost like ET the game [Scott]: was kind of something we drift on... [Jeremy]: It was so bad they destroyed every copy. [Scott]: Yeah! We took a lot of inspiration from like actual video game, real world lore. [Scott]: And we said, well, what if we do something kind of like Last Starfighter [Scott]: meets Tron meets ridiculous like Knights of Badassdom kind of absurd comedy [Scott]: and culture and infused it all together? And we did. And we

did against [Scott]: all odds we did with a lot of help from yourself and your team, many [Scott]: others. We pulled this little indie film off for a song and a pittance and [Scott]: did it against numerous odds in how many days of shooting? [Jeremy]: Ultimately 23, I think. [Scott]: 23 all overnight shots with the ridiculous and absurd 500 plus [Scott]: VFX shots written in for an indie film that had no budget. Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: And that's just the VFX that my team and I touched. There w

as more beyond [Paul DeNigris]: that, like the game imagery and stuff, which we'll touch on. My next question [Paul DeNigris]: was gonna be, what possessed you to make a movie this ambitious as your first feature? But you sort of answered that already. It seemed [Paul DeNigris]: like the inevitable direction that you were going, through all the projects [Paul DeNigris]: that led you there. [Jeremy]: Yeah, we just we can't we can't do anything small. I mean, we start writing [Jeremy]: something a

nd then, you know, it's just... [Scott]: We have this conversation all [Scott]: the time. Like, there's something wrong with us in our approach. And [Scott]: and the funny thing is, man, like blessing and curse, the capability and [Scott]: the naivete mixed with stubbornness and then the ability, like you said, to bring [Scott]: together a very skilled. and much larger tribe than the two of us to actually [Scott]: have the technicians and the craftsmen and the artists, for some reason [Scott]: t

hey jump on board and they see the vision and help us bring it across [Scott]: the finish line. Like looking back over what ended up becoming a two year, [Scott]: two and a half year process of our life, dude, if you'd shown us that roadmap [Scott]: when we started making the film, I would've been like, nope, I'm out. [Scott]: Like my wife would've been like, yeah, you're out. But no, she was super [Scott]: supportive the whole time. But it was like... It's insanity when you look [Scott]: at the

amount of challenges, hurdles, um, not just technically, but you're, [Scott]: dude, you're checking your own sanity. Like nightly, I remember there's [Scott]: nights that I called Jeremy. I was like, dude, what have we gotten ourselves into? [Jeremy]: What if we show up sick tomorrow? [Scott]: Hey Paul, you're up. [Paul DeNigris]: Hahaha [Scott]: I don't know if I answered the question, but yeah, a lot of, a lot of things to say [Paul DeNigris]: No, that did answer the question. I mean, you gu

ys are obviously very ambitious [Paul DeNigris]: and have a vision. And I think that's what the people like Martin Kove and [Paul DeNigris]: Greg Grunberg and all of the actors that you brought on board, and then [Paul DeNigris]: all of the crew and the behind the scenes talent, the below the line talent that [Paul DeNigris]: you brought on board. We all saw the ambition. We all saw the reaching for, [Paul DeNigris]: metaphorically reaching for the stars and doing something that was really [Paul

DeNigris]: unexpected in the indie film space, right? [Jeremy]: I think there's a lot of gusto as well of like, you know, like, [Scott]: I like that word... [Jeremy]: you know, it's like, if they can do it, we can do it. It was, there was a lot [Jeremy]: of like, you know, why not? Why, why shouldn't we be able to do this? Why [Jeremy]: can't people do this? Let's prove them. Right. There was a lot of that, [Jeremy]: just like, you know, let's, let's do this and show people that it's a reality.

[Jeremy]: Um, I think we learned a lot that, uh, that we were humbled many times, [Jeremy]: but, yeah, um, through that process of refinement. you know, I think that [Jeremy]: was all a positive experience. [Scott]: And that's kind of like the indie spirit, dude. [Scott]: Sure. It was a union film, right? We had, it was all union actors, we [Scott]: had to go through SAG and all that stuff, but it was still, I mean, it [Scott]: was on the very cusp of what would qualify for a, you know, ULB. Ul

tra low [Scott]: budget. Ultra low budget indie, and we wanted to make a film that didn't feel [Scott]: like that. We wanted it to feel like it had gone through a studio of some [Scott]: sort, right? And... If it wasn't for having that mindset, that indie [Scott]: mindset, all of those moments where like, well, no, you can't do it that way [Scott]: for well, for a number of reasons because you got 10 different people [Scott]: looking over your shoulder and, you know, no one's willing to do it th

at [Scott]: way. That was not the case on Max. Everyone's like, yeah, okay. We see [Scott]: what you wrote on the page. How can, how could that look? And that was [Scott]: every step of the way. [Paul DeNigris]: So what were some of the creative touchstones for the film? I always look at it as being [Paul DeNigris]: kind of a throwback to the movies that we grew up on, right? [Jeremy]: Absolutely. [Paul DeNigris]: In the eighties, it's got very much a kind of a Ghostbusters vibe in a way, where

it's comedy, sci-fi, horror, action, [Paul DeNigris]: and it thrives on the characters and their interaction, not just on the effects, [Paul DeNigris]: but oh yeah, the effects are also really cool. And I know you guys had an [Paul DeNigris]: experience where you brushed up against Ernest Cline and Ready Player One. [Paul DeNigris]: Can you just talk about that a little bit? [Jeremy]: Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, it's like always just reaching as far as possible, [Jeremy]: right? Like never taking

no for an answer and just saying, what if, you [Jeremy]: know, that's how we reached out to Kevin Smith. And we did a very similar [Jeremy]: thing for Ernest Klein. We, we sat on a couch and we made a video appealing [Jeremy]: to his nerd side, essentially. And saying, Hey, we're doing this thing. Um, [Jeremy]: it's very inspired by some of your work and we respect the hell out of you. [Jeremy]: And if you could help us promote this in any way and or give feedback in any [Jeremy]: way, you know,

we would be honored to, you know, just even be considered [Jeremy]: by your time. [Scott]: Yeah. And we'd run into him at a book signing that Arizona [Scott]: State University hosted and we were big fans of Ready Player One. And we [Scott]: went down there and he gave a talk and it was before, I mean, he actually [Scott]: had announced at that reading that he was doing the film with Spielberg and [Scott]: they were actually through Arizona visiting Spielberg's childhood home. [Scott]: It hadn'

t hit mainstream news yet, but they did a little walkthrough, get [Scott]: your book signed at the end. Right. And everyone's getting kind of ushered [Scott]: through by the handler. They're like, you know, we got 200 people plus here. [Scott]: You got to keep moving the line along. But we snagged the opportunity [Scott]: for 30 seconds and hey, man, we've got this mock up poster we did for the [Scott]: film. We did this little arcade short film called Show No Mercy with the guy [Scott]: from Ka

rate Kid, Martin Kove. I'm sure you know, he's like, oh, yeah. So [Scott]: we're working on this new thing. Is there a chance we could reach out [Scott]: in the future? And he's like, yeah. So we sent him that and he loved it. [Scott]: And we reminded him that we met him at the book signing, which helped. [Scott]: And yeah, man, it was a shooting your shot, so to speak. Yeah. You see the opportunity, take it. [Jeremy]: Yeah. And then like you mentioned, you know, films from our childhood, [Jerem

y]: we wanted this to feel like an E.T., a Goonies, The Last Starfighter, Ghostbusters. [Jeremy]: You know, we shot it on anamorphic lenses, which... obviously we shot on RED, but [Jeremy]: we didn't want it to feel like the super overly sharp, overly, you know, [Jeremy]: sanitized movie. We want it to feel like. there was character, you know, [Jeremy]: there might be a shot that's not super stabilized, you know, show that a [Jeremy]: human being made this film, right? And so that, yeah, we real

ly wanted [Jeremy]: it to feel like that. Like, yeah, so you could relate to it more, whether [Jeremy]: that worked or not, that was the intention. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, I mean, the anamorphic lenses that you guys shot on definitely evoked [Paul DeNigris]: again, those 80s action sci-fi movies. You know, you had those [Paul DeNigris]: beautiful lens flares that we, my team and I, had to replicate in some spots. [Jeremy]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: And it was just like, yeah, you see those images. A

nd I immediately takes [Paul DeNigris]: me back to being 14 and watching Ghostbusters for the first time. And those beautiful lens flares when [Paul DeNigris]: they fire up the proton packs. [Scott]: Yeah man. I just saw on a podcast yesterday or on a video yesterday, a vlog. [Scott]: They had the Ecto cruiser around New York. [Jeremy]: Oh, yeah, that was a nice that video. [Scott]: Yeah, Casey Neistat. Yep. We got stoked on that. We actually did a mock [Scott]: up poster with a concept artist

and we reference the original Ghostbusters [Scott]: poster. I think it's one of the ones where they had the proton packs. It's [Scott]: from the back and they're looking up at the tower, you know, where the [Scott]: gatekeeper is and we're like, dude, do that, but with the Max Reload characters, [Scott]: that kind of style, that vibe. Because if you think about how absurd the films [Scott]: were in the 80s, the premises were ridiculous, like Monster Squad - ridiculous! [Scott]: Ghostbusters - ri

diculous! [Scott]: But it's that suspension of disbelief that I think that generation was [Scott]: willing. They were willing to go on those rides. And that's kind of what [Scott]: we hope for viewers of Max. Just come on this ride, man, for two hours [Scott]: and be absurd with us. [Paul DeNigris]: How long were the various stages of the film's [Paul DeNigris]: development, pre-production, production, post? You kind of touched on production [Paul DeNigris]: being very short, what'd you say, 23

days? [Scott]: Physical, yeah, physical production was 23 nights, all overnights on those. [Paul DeNigris]: So what was the pre-production cycle like? How long did you guys spend from [Paul DeNigris]: when you started writing the script till cameras rolled and then we'll segue [Paul DeNigris]: into post. [Scott]: Yeah, so correct me if I'm wrong, because your memory on timelines is [Scott]: much better than mine typically. I think overall from writing through pre-pro, [Scott]: actually turning o

ur office at the time into a production office for Max as [Scott]: a dedicated focus, it was about nine months. [Jeremy]: Yeah, probably. It was pretty [Jeremy]: fast. Yeah. Yeah, no more than that, I think. You know, we've obviously [Jeremy]: been percolating the idea for quite a while. But as far as like starting [Jeremy]: to sit down and put pen to paper and yeah. [Scott]: Yeah, I think we wrote the [Scott]: script over about three months, right? Um, multiple drafts, of course. And [Scott]:

then, and then we started, uh, you know, raising money and doing that [Scott]: from within our camp and talking to creatives. And it came together fast, respectively [Scott]: fast. If you compare it to like a studio picture that could take 10 years [Scott]: to get something going. [Jeremy]: And during, like during the writing process, we were scouting [Jeremy]: locations and we were talking to... So yeah, I think we were doing a lot at [Jeremy]: the same time. [Paul DeNigris]: Right on, and the

n 23 nights of filming, and then we jump into post. [Paul DeNigris]: How long was post? [Jeremy]: Post was hard, man, because it's like, you spend all this time making this [Jeremy]: thing or, you know, writing, producing, pre-production, then you kill yourself [Jeremy]: to make it. And then all of a sudden you've got to edit this thing because [Jeremy]: we edited it as well. And you're still trying to make a living. So you're [Jeremy]: trying to do side jobs here and there. And man, the post, t

hat was a slog. [Jeremy]: Just like the edit, the rough cuts, the tightening up and all that. I feel [Jeremy]: like we were, I don't know. I don't remember how long we were. [Scott]: Through VFX? [Jeremy]: Just the edit mostly, right? [Scott]: Just the edit took... [Jeremy]: Cause once we were mostly locked, it was VFX. And I think we were still tweaking here and [Jeremy]: there where we could, but. [Scott]: Yeah, the edit alone due to some limitations... [Jeremy]: It was at least six months,

right? [Scott]: That much RED footage that we were working [Scott]: with on that drive. I think it took about six months. Yeah, five to six [Scott]: months to get a cut that we were really happy with, of course, with temp [Scott]: score and trying to get. you know it to a place where our composer could [Scott]: actually start scoring it, Jesse. And like you know that was a great lesson [Scott]: too is on a feature, especially one with 500 VFX shots, you coached us beautifully. [Scott]: We're re

al renegade and like, you know, let's just try this shot and let's, [Scott]: uh, let's try some effects on it. No, no, no. You're locking everything [Scott]: before you give it to your effects team because they don't want to go [Scott]: back and do 20 different versions on different plates and everything else. So. [Scott]: Yeah, man, it was a process. Overall, it took over a year, a year and a [Scott]: few months with effects, to get a cut, a deliverable cut down a bit. [Paul DeNigris]: Right, a

nd then as far as the visual effects component, my team and I, we [Paul DeNigris]: were responsible for things like screen comps, the energy weapons, the [Paul DeNigris]: Nether creatures, the glowing eyes, some miscellaneous cleanup and stuff, [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: smoke, fire, red lightning, things like that. But there was more beyond [Paul DeNigris]: that, right? A lot of the movie really was crafted in post in [Jeremy]: Right. [Paul DeNigris]: a way. It really truly was the final r

ewrite. [Jeremy]: There was a lot of, yeah, I mean the entire intro is, you know, there's [Jeremy]: a few live shots, but most of the intro is CG and the gameplay footage, [Jeremy]: right? And then a big flashback is a complete like G.I. Joe animated sequence. [Scott]: Yeah and then we had the pixel art as well. Overall, we had, I think, six, five or six different [Scott]: animation styles we worked in throughout the entire film. And those were [Scott]: all tributes to our childhood, like side s

croller, video game, pixel art, [Scott]: like Paperboy and the NES games and Sega games we grew up playing. And [Scott]: then the G.I. Joe style, that era of 2D. Yeah, well, it was just very flat [Scott]: line drawn animation. Saturday morning cartoon animation was another. And [Scott]: then we had literal game developers who were working on video games use 3D, Unreal [Scott]: Engine and different softwares to make. [Jeremy]: They basically built like a World [Jeremy]: of Warcraft kind of clone

game that’s... [Scott]: ... using the cameras in the game making [Scott]: software as cameras and Jeremy sat down with them as the DP and was like, [Scott]: okay let's try these angles as we fly through this level you've created [Scott]: and they're animating the characters they made to our specs to [Scott]: look like they're talking [Jeremy]: Yeah, it was it was a challenge though because [Jeremy]: you're communicating like film language and then to a video game, you [Jeremy]: know, like langu

age and so it was... There was a lot of challenges getting [Jeremy]: the vision. Because this isn't what they do. They don't make cut scenes for [Jeremy]: a living. They make games that are played by people, not you push a button [Jeremy]: and it plays a sequence of clips. [Scott]: That's usually a whole separate team. [Jeremy]: So it was a challenge just communicating and getting the right, just really [Jeremy]: getting the right stuff. But at the end they nailed it. And it was really [Jeremy]

: cool to see it all come together. It was just, it's just another challenge you [Jeremy]: don't anticipate. You're like, oh, just this game scene, it's gonna be an [Jeremy]: easy little. You know, [Scott]: Dude, there is yeah, anything you write on that page, [Scott]: someone has to bring to life. You know that intimately Paul. And the littlest [Scott]: thing can be, you know, hours and hours in post replacing something in that [Scott]: shot, that composition. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and that w

hole sequence where we're first introduced to Max and Lizzie [Paul DeNigris]: and Reggie, and we're introduced to Eugene, but we don't realize it right up [Paul DeNigris]: front. That whole sequence, it's happening on all these different levels, [Paul DeNigris]: right? Because we're in the game world, we're over their shoulders looking [Paul DeNigris]: at their screens, we're seeing their first person web camera as they're talking [Paul DeNigris]: to each other, we're cutting to their characters

as if they're having a [Paul DeNigris]: conversation. And it's all very intricate and crafted. And I know you [Paul DeNigris]: guys probably had, you know... X number of frames that we possibly could use [Paul DeNigris]: and one frame longer and the game engine falls apart [Paul DeNigris]: or doesn't work. And so you're having to cut it all to the bone and make it all work. [Paul DeNigris]: And I know there was a lot of experimentation and seeing sequences like [Paul DeNigris]: that where it wa

s like, how much do we see the game engine? How much do [Paul DeNigris]: we spend on Max's face? [Paul DeNigris]: How do we keep it moving from shot to shot? Um, and keep the story moving [Paul DeNigris]: forward and also not, you know, show our ass when the game, when the game imagery [Paul DeNigris]: doesn't work or the, uh, yeah, whatever. [Jeremy]: Right. Yeah, because the way that they had to do it, they didn't make like individual shots. [Jeremy]: So I would get this file that was like all

the sequences in one file. And [Jeremy]: the characters go from like their T pose to like snap into this thing. [Jeremy]: And the camera would like snap here and then it would begin its sequence. [Jeremy]: And then they would snap back into like a T pose and the camera would snap. [Jeremy]: So it was like trying to like make sense of what on earth was going on. [Scott]: Real surgery, man. [Jeremy]: It was an interesting, it was fun. Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And then the animation side of th

ings, who was responsible for the [Paul DeNigris]: cool 2D animated sequence? Eugene's big origin story, if you will. [Scott]: Yeah, so we had, so Dan Fusselman worked with us. He was one of our, one of our [Scott]: good buddies, you know, Dan, who's a friend of yours as well. Amazing artist [Scott]: and he helmed one of the animation teams and they did most of the 2D style animations [Scott]: and there was about four individuals under Dan on that team who were just incredible [Scott]: artists a

nd they all handled certain aspects of that pipeline. And then [Scott]: we had... [Jeremy]: The transitional... [Scott]: So you're talking about Alexis? [Jeremy]: Yeah, yeah, Alexis, I believe he's out of somewhere [Scott & Jeremy]: out of the UK. [Jeremy]: When did connect with him? You like found him somewhere. [Scott]: Yeah, I saw on it [Scott]: wasn't Kickstarter was some project that he posted. And he [Scott]: had teamed up with the one of the game designers who did like the original [Sc

ott]: Shinobi games. And they were doing some kind of a new project together that [Scott]: was pixel art based. I was like, I've never seen [Jeremy]: Incredible pixel art. [Scott]: pixel art like that before. And that’s the beauty of the internet, man, and also independently spirited, minded artists is you [Scott]: can reach out to anybody nowadays and find their Instagram handle or even big [Scott]: directors man and just say hey dude I love what you're doing here's kind [Scott]: of what we hav

e going on can we chat and you'd be very surprised most of [Scott]: the time a lot of them will get back to you and say yeah man that sounds [Scott]: cool let's talk. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and the pixel art thing came about, that was a late edition, right? [Paul DeNigris]: The animated sequence [Paul DeNigris]: and all the game, the gameplay sequences, those were all baked into the script. [Paul DeNigris]: You knew that those were going to be necessary right up front. [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNig

ris]: But the pixel art stuff came about from conversations that you had in post [Scott]: It was a good fix. [Jeremy]: Yeah, there was... Yeah, exactly. Because... [Scott]: We screwed up [Jeremy]: Well, there was a lot of like... like there was a lot of things [Jeremy]: that we just couldn't do very easily. A drone shot of a city as a as the FFS [Jeremy]: van was driving. You know, transitions where he's riding his [Jeremy]: bike at night, right? We don't have these... a crane with 18K’s to li

ght the street, [Jeremy]: right? Like, so how can we keep a cool theme? And save money and that [Scott]: Those transitions were mostly like Max on his bike to a lot of them. [Jeremy]:They were [Jeremy]: they were taken from scene to scene. [Scott]: Yeah. Well, yeah, we were thinking, [Scott]: okay, you know, Max wears a hoodie. We'll just get a double and throw [Scott]: a hoodie on him and we'll go. We'll pick up all this stuff later. We'll [Scott]: film it all later. Well, you know, seasons c

hange. Time goes on. And this [Scott]: is one of those cool instances where it forced our hand in a creative way [Scott]: to go: What's an alternative option for this? What's a cool way to show Max? [Jeremy]: Filmmaking is problem solving. [Scott]: This dude lives in a video game in his head space. [Scott]: The movie's literally about them getting sucked into a game at a point. [Scott]: So let's show them through the lens of transition cutscenes. Stuff we [Scott]: grew up, you know, when you're

playing a video game and they're trying to [Scott]: weave a story together. Well, that's exactly what those scenes are in our [Scott]: film. So let's do it that way. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and it dovetails really well with the end where they get sucked into [Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You didn't CG animate that, right? You just filmed [Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You didn't CG animate that, right? You just filmed [Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You didn't CG

animate that, right? You just filmed [Paul DeNigris]: it. You art directed it and dressed them in costumes and filmed it. And so the line [Paul DeNigris]: between reality and game world and Max's imagination and what he's really [Paul DeNigris]: experiencing is constantly being blurred, right? Like, literally from [Paul DeNigris]: the first frame that we see him [Jeremy]: Mm-hmm. [Paul DeNigris]: after the ancient Egypt... prologue, which of course these movies always [Paul DeNigris]: start in

ancient Mesopotamia... or, you [Paul DeNigris]: know, just something [Paul DeNigris]: like that. Right. I always, I always wanted the opening title, you know, [Paul DeNigris]: when we see that shot of the pyramid to be like ancient Egypt. Duh. [Scott]: We've seen this before. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And that was a fun sequence, [Paul DeNigris]: transitioning into that amazing [Paul DeNigris]: pyramid interior set that was an absolute blast to film on. [Paul DeNigris]: pyramid interior set that wa

s an absolute blast to film on. [Paul DeNigris]: And then all the work there. And then that holographic game table, that [Paul DeNigris]: game table gave us quite a challenge in post [Jeremy]: That was challenging. Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: game table gave us quite a challenge in post [Jeremy]: That was challenging. Yeah. [Scott]: Determining the look for that man. It took a couple iterations and then you [Scott]: nailed it and it was, uh, yeah, it was, it was so again, so loosely written [Scott]:

on the page, you know, like one slug line on a script can be like an astral [Scott]: projection on top of a marble table. Okay, cool. But what does that really [Scott]: look like? Well, that can take a few iterations. [Paul DeNigris]: Right, right. Yeah. So we had, we had quite a bit of a look dev that we had [Paul DeNigris]: to do on that. Because you guys had ideas about what you wanted it to [Paul DeNigris]: look like. I had ideas and we were trying to kind of meet in the middle [Paul DeNigri

s]: and figure out what is, what does quote unquote galactic chess look like? [Paul DeNigris]: What, what is, what does it look like that this, you know, Nether creature, [Paul DeNigris]: the, the game master [Paul DeNigris]: creature, you know, what is, what is it that he would play? It's not chess [Paul DeNigris]: because that's too much of a cliche, you know, the, The Seventh Seal, [Paul DeNigris]: Max Von Sydow... [Paul DeNigris]: you know, that, that kind of thing, but it's still same sort

of concept [Paul DeNigris]: they're playing for. They're playing for fate, the fate of the village, [Paul DeNigris]: the fate of [Scott]: Exactly. [Paul DeNigris]: the gamer, but it has to be something that, you know, we can understand [Paul DeNigris]: without... with no exposition about how the rules work. It has to be completely [Paul DeNigris]: visual. It has to obviously be a game that has rules that are internally [Paul DeNigris]: consistent. But oh yeah, the actor is just sort of randomly

moving this piece [Paul DeNigris]: around this blank piece of plexiglass and then we have to fill it out after this [Scott]: It's a scene too, that was MOS, like there's no dialogue. No one's telling [Scott]: you, yes, we're gonna duel now and play this game for the fate of the universe. [Scott]: No, it was just silent with looks between the actors, which they did brilliantly. [Scott]: And then you coming up with that visual, the graphic representation where [Scott]: you can clearly tell, okay,

cool, there are pieces that are overtaking [Scott]: and there's connective tissue between these moves. And clearly they're playing [Scott]: some form of, like you said, galactic chess. It worked out, man. It was [Scott]: a struggle, but it turned out great. [Paul DeNigris]: So that was one that took a lot of look dev. The titular Nether Blasters, [Paul DeNigris]: I have one of them over here [Paul DeNigris]: on my shelf that you guys gave me. [Scott]: From the set right there. Yeah, man, [Paul D

eNigris]: From the set, [Scott]: one of the the real ones. [Paul DeNigris]: one of Eugene's actual screen used blasters. It's.... [Scott]: That's right. That's no replica Paul, that’s the OG Blaster [Paul DeNigris]: Indeed, screen used and all of that. But it took us a while to figure that [Paul DeNigris]: out, to figure out what that looked like and how the blasters moved and all the different little elements of sparks and corkscrew, you know, electrons and all of that [Paul DeNigris]: sort of

stuff. You want to talk about a little bit about, you know, sort [Paul DeNigris]: of the inspiration there and what we were after? [Jeremy]: Yeah, it's kind of like a Ghostbusters-esque, you know, I think that [Jeremy]: was probably the closest comp that we were thinking about that would look [Jeremy]: like because it's ultraviolet... [Scott]: That's my favorite! [Jeremy]: white light or whatever [Jeremy]: he says, spectral. [Scott]: The inside joke was in that was in the dialogue right [Scott]

: there was like, again, going back to absurdity and you know, in Ghostbusters, [Scott]: they build up those characters to be ultra brilliant, you know, particle physicists [Scott]: and okay, it's kind of plausible these dudes, they've got a nuclear reactor [Scott]: in the basement of a fire station. Well, the funny turning on its head [Scott]: thing is we've got this ultra brilliant game designer, who we never fully [Scott]: explained like how we became, you know, an energy weapon expert. And e

ven [Scott]: he kind of doesn't really know clearly through his description of shit [Scott]: that doesn't make any sense. But we just say, again, go with us on this [Scott]: ride. He's going to give these kids a bunch of these weapons that are somehow [Scott]: able to disrupt the evil Nether. And dude, down to the color schemes too, that [Scott]: we had talked about with you, that was another throwback to kind of cartoons [Scott]: of the 80s, like GI Joe, Transformers, the bad guys, and you know

, even looking at [Scott]: Star Wars, red, you know, they're always shooting red laser beams, the [Scott]: good guys are shooting blue or green. And so we kind of worked a little [Scott]: bit of that into the approach to tipping our hat to the genres we love growing [Scott]: up when it came to the Nether blasters. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, because we had then established early on that the Nether was [Paul DeNigris]: going to be red and you guys did a lot of red accent lighting and stuff [Paul DeNig

ris]: on set whenever Nether energy was involved. So yeah, we had set that tone [Paul DeNigris]: right up front during production. You guys used those Quasar lights to do red [Paul DeNigris]: accents on things whenever Nether creatures were visible, like the Nether [Paul DeNigris]: Cragon, which we'll talk about in a second. And when Reggie, when we first [Paul DeNigris]: see the Nether Blaster guns in action, Reggie getting zapped and [Paul DeNigris]: you did all those beautiful green accents w

ith [Paul DeNigris]: the lighting and that was a really excellent case of we thought that out [Paul DeNigris]: ahead of time, [Paul DeNigris]: you know. Dan and I shared, Dan Fusselman and I shared visual effects supervisor [Paul DeNigris]: duties. So when I wasn't on set, he was. Um, and. You know, we talked through [Paul DeNigris]: that, that anytime we were doing any sort of energy weapons, you know, [Paul DeNigris]: energy creatures, whatever that the, that you guys were going to help [Paul

DeNigris]: us a lot just by simply flicking on a light, [Paul DeNigris]: you know, and that really sells the reality of, yeah, there's this green energy thing flying across the room and it's creating shadows [Paul DeNigris]: and highlights on. you know, all the chrome and stuff in the video games [Scott]: All that motivated lighting [Jeremy]: Right. Yeah. Our gaffer Jacen Sievers with a green two foot Quasar on a stick and he was [Jeremy]: running by as if that's where the, you know, the light w

as going. [Scott]: Simulating the contrail or the trail of energy. Yeah. [Scott]: Dude, Quasar Science came through huge on this picture for us, man. [Jeremy]: Tons of gear for us to use, which was phenomenal. You know, for an indie to hit them up and say, [Jeremy]: hey, this is what we're doing... [Jeremy]: That’s amazing. Especially in like the film industry, that does not happen. People [Jeremy]: do not give you a free sandwich, ever. Because they know you're gonna buy it, [Jeremy]: you're go

nna rent it, you need it. There's no other option. So for them [Jeremy]: to support us like that. [Scott]: Well, I think it's because they knew we were indie [Scott]: and we were starving and we needed the sandwich. So they're like, all right, [Scott]: you're not a big studio. We'll throw you a bone here. [Jeremy]: It seems like the people [Jeremy]: that run that organization are very similar to us. And I think they care [Jeremy]: and their heart is where ours is. And so it was cool for them t

o throw us [Jeremy]: a bone like that. That helped a ton. [Paul DeNigris]: Obviously the Nether creatures were another big challenge, right? And we had to keep them [Paul DeNigris]: consistent with the game art, [Paul DeNigris]: right? So we established early on what the Nether Specters and the Nether [Paul DeNigris]: Cragon look like in the game world. And then you wanted them to be in our [Paul DeNigris]: real world. And... [Paul DeNigris]: You guys made the smart choice that most of the time

the Nether Specters would [Paul DeNigris]: just manifest as glowing red eyes, right? So we weren't doing full CG photorealistic [Paul DeNigris]: just manifest as glowing red eyes, right? So we weren't doing full CG photorealistic [Paul DeNigris]: characters because that's a budget breaker. That's something that an indie [Paul DeNigris]: film is just not going to be able to pull off. And certainly not the amount [Paul DeNigris]: of Nether possessed people that you wanted on screen. I mean, you ha

d [Paul DeNigris]: three main characters who are Nether possessed... Four, really, if you count [Paul DeNigris]: the man in black, the Suited Man, as he was called in the script. [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And to have them as being motion captured or just hand animated CG creatures, [Paul DeNigris]: it just wasn't going to happen at that budget level. So the smart choice was, [Paul DeNigris]: well, when the nether is in somebody, they manifest as glowing red eyes. [Paul DeNigris]: ton

of glowing red eyes. [Scott]: Kind of a possession. [Paul DeNigris]: And that was probably the bulk of our comps, I would say, maybe more than, [Paul DeNigris]: probably more than a third of our comps were glowing red eyes. And we [Paul DeNigris]: spent a lot of time [Jeremy]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: on look dev on that. You know, [Jeremy]: It's tough because [Paul DeNigris]: we, picked... [Jeremy]: the eyes are the window to the soul, you know, and when you're messing [Jeremy]: with the eyes,

it's very easy for it to look weird, uncanny, off. And yeah, [Jeremy]: once we dialed it in, I think you've absolutely nailed it. So it was cool [Jeremy]: to see that come to life. [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and we spent a bunch of iterations on it, like trying to figure [Paul DeNigris]: out, you know, what did Seth and his crew look like as the mini bosses who [Paul DeNigris]: had to have a little bit more character. We had [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: to get a little more malice

and a little more intent out of their eyes. [Paul DeNigris]: Whereas like when Reggie is possessed or when the just, you know, rando's [Paul DeNigris]: walking on the street, I'm one of the rando's. [Scott]: You had a little cameo in there, man. That's right, with your team [Paul DeNigris]: You know, or the like the students at the school when they when they waged their [Paul DeNigris]: final assault on the servers at the end of the movie, you know, they had [Paul DeNigris]: to be more like the

possessed drones with no window into the soul, right? [Paul DeNigris]: So there were definitely a couple of different key looks and the suited [Paul DeNigris]: man definitely had to have his own his own mojo going on with his eyes. [Scott]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: So it wasn't it wasn't just a one size fits all solution. It really, you [Paul DeNigris]: know, we had to kind of build a system for it and I built essentially [Paul DeNigris]: an eye rig for my team. So you could kind of like dial, I w

ant more pupil. [Paul DeNigris]: I want less pupil. I want more glow, less glow. It needs to be redder. It [Paul DeNigris]: needs to be pinker. You know, we could kind of finesse that from shot to shot [Paul DeNigris]: And yeah, and that was a lot of the early stages. You know, like the first [Paul DeNigris]: maybe four weeks of post, of VFX was, let's do all this look dev. Blasters, [Paul DeNigris]: eyes. the galactic chess, figure all that out. And then that's not even counting, [Paul DeNigris

]: all of the different screen art. Every time they're looking at a computer, [Paul DeNigris]: every time they're playing a game, every time they're talking to each [Paul DeNigris]: other on a webcam, those are generally green screen, green displays on monitors. [Paul DeNigris]: So there was a ton of that work. Yeah, [Scott]: Yes, there was. [Paul DeNigris]: yeah. Of course, somebody decided to have a green chair. [Paul DeNigris]: on set for a lot of those. [Scott]: That's bad. I know. I don't k

now. I don't know where our VFX supervisor [Scott]: was on that call. That's wild because [Paul DeNigris]: Hmm. [Scott & Jeremy]: green, green chair [Scott & Jeremy]: green screens. [Paul DeNigris]: he must not have been there that day. [Scott]: You raise like a really cool point too, though... [Scott]: The cool thing for us was like collaborating with you and [Scott]: your team. And you being the point man, that specifically we could share [Scott]: a vision with and say, hey man, here's kind of

what we're going for, or [Scott]: hey, we don't exactly know what we want this to look like, but here's [Scott]: some inspiration. What do you think? And you’d throw back awesome ideas. [Scott]: And I remember you jogged my memory there. The whole thing with the eyes, [Scott]: it was a very interesting conversation because at one point I think we'd [Scott]: envisioned after Seth and the mini boss, his trio of bad guys, essentially [Scott]: the mini boss kids who were kind of the antagonists aga

inst Max and his [Scott]: crew. We're like, yeah, after they get possessed, you know, they have red [Scott]: eyes the whole movie. Like they're like demonically possessed. But then [Scott]: we had this conversation with you and based on the looks and the process, [Scott]: you don't wanna steal the window of the soul, like you said, from an [Scott]: actor too, because so much performance like Lukas Gage and those guys [Scott]: just gave such good looks. You cover up that with the glowing red eyes

[Scott]: the entire time, you're stealing something from that performance, I think we [Scott]: realized. So we're like, all right, this possession is inside them. The [Scott]: manifestation of it visually is a little more transient. And it also, independently [Scott]: minded again, at a point we had this discussion and it was like, yeah, [Scott]: it's also gonna save time and money. So let's give them that better performance [Scott]: moment. Let's let them have those eyes. [Jeremy]: And when th

ose eyes come out, it [Jeremy]: It means something. Yeah. It's the intensity of that scene happens far more [Scott]: Yeah. Absolutely. And that whole process was a treat, man, especially. [Scott]: working with you and having you communicate options and being super receptive [Scott]: to everything we brought to the table, it brought better out of some of [Scott]: those possibilities. [Paul DeNigris]: I think it was a happy accident. There's one [Paul DeNigris]: part where Seth is right up in Euge

ne's face. You know, Eugene is sort [Paul DeNigris]: of cowed on the ground and [Scott]: He's leaning over him [Paul DeNigris]: Seth is leaning over him. And I don't remember if it happened by accident [Paul DeNigris]: or it was something that we, that my team internally decided to try. But [Paul DeNigris]: there's one part where he gets really intense and we decided let's make the [Paul DeNigris]: eyes even brighter [Paul DeNigris]: and flare up more and we were, manually painting in light on E

ugene's face. [Paul DeNigris]: So that it was as if the light was coming out of [Scott & Jeremy]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Seth's eyes, like beams, and hitting, hitting Eugene on the face. And we [Paul DeNigris]: were like, let's, let's try and let's hit this. When when Lukas hits this [Paul DeNigris]: word, let's make those eyes just like flare out. And, and I think it was [Paul DeNigris]: like a, let's try it and see and we liked it. And we pitched to you and [Paul DeNigris]: you were like, Oh,

my god, this is the coolest. And so [Paul DeNigris]: we then selectively found spots for Seth and for the Suited Man, where we would [Paul DeNigris]: do that sort of ramp up to accentuate, almost as if the actor had control [Jeremy]: Sure, absolutely. [Paul DeNigris]: over that as part of their body language. Yeah. [Scott]: Yeah, yeah. That's the best example of effects well done for me man is [Scott]: that kind of, I mean of course is the razzle dazzle. We're all fans of Marvel [Scott]: films a

nd all the wild sci fi stuff we love but performance enhancing [Scott]: moments like that where it's like, that's just a nice little touch, a little [Scott]: enhancement, a little flare. [Jeremy]: Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's all about performance and story, right? When you [Paul DeNigris]: when you're making an indie, I mean, theoretically, when you're making any [Paul DeNigris]: film, but when you're making an indie where every dollar has to count. Every [Paul DeNigris]: pix

el that you're pushing needs to be for a reason. [Paul DeNigris]: Every pixel that's being manipulated on screen needs to be for a reason. And it [Paul DeNigris]: was always to help you guys tell the story. And it was always to improve [Paul DeNigris]: the performance, to motivate the drama, to, you know, so that when when [Paul DeNigris]: Max and crew are reacting to something, what they're reacting to is legit [Paul DeNigris]: and it feels tactile and feels like it's in the space. To go back t

o our Nether [Paul DeNigris]: creatures, the other choice that we made early on, again, to try and avoid [Paul DeNigris]: doing fully photoreal CG creatures was that in our plane, the creatures manifest [Paul DeNigris]: as energy. Right. And so we ended up being able to leverage the game engine [Paul DeNigris]: assets. So your game art designers turned over their rigs to us [Paul DeNigris]: and then we were able to use that to [Paul DeNigris]: drive a particle sim. So they became made out of, yo

u know, [Paul DeNigris]: ions or whatever that danced around in the shape of the creature. And we [Paul DeNigris]: didn't have to, you know, try and create skin and subsurface scattering. [Paul DeNigris]: And, you know. proper deformations and try and do Gollum on an [Paul DeNigris]: ultra low budget film and do that for multiple creatures throughout the [Paul DeNigris]: ultra low budget film and do that for multiple creatures throughout the [Paul DeNigris]: movie. In particular, the one that I

always point to [Paul DeNigris]: as my biggest point of pride is that reveal of the Nether Cragon [Paul DeNigris]: when Seth comes walking in with it on a leash [Scott]: it's in super slow mo. Yeah, lightning's going off in the background, highlighting [Scott]: them from behind. And yeah, dude, we geeked out to when you showed us that [Scott]: particle sim, you know, look, because huge Predator fan, you know, and it [Scott]: was like, okay, cool. So these things are kind of, they're breaching th

eir [Scott]: way from the game world into real world. Well, what is that? What are games, [Scott]: data and digital and energy? And, and so that, you know, that representation [Scott]: of it visually just worked. But yeah, that shot in particular of the Nether [Scott]: Cragon, dude. That was the show style. It was a trailer moment. We saw [Scott]: you putting that together like that's going in the trailer for sure. [Paul DeNigris]: That was a fun night on set. That was that [Paul DeNigris]: was

one of the nights that I was able to hang with you guys through the [Paul DeNigris]: through the entire shoot day. And of course, I was geeking out talking to [Paul DeNigris]: Greg Grunberg, right? heroes alias. [Scott]: Oh, and there's Lin Shaye, come on. [Paul DeNigris]: Oh, and Lin Shaye. Yeah, I had a blast talking to them and getting to [Paul DeNigris]: know them. And so that was awesome. Like that's one of those pinch me [Paul DeNigris]: moments. Like here's a dude who's in Star Trek and S

tar Wars and all this [Paul DeNigris]: other stuff. And he's just like, you know, just bullshitting with me on the couch in between takes. [Scott]: He's a good dude, man. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, [Paul DeNigris]: pretty awesome [Scott]: also a producer on this film, a star and a producer. Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. And it was great to meet his son. His son played [Paul DeNigris]: the younger version of his character. And [Scott]: Jakey! [Paul DeNigris]: yeah, and that was a

blast just to see that and see how much he supported [Paul DeNigris]: the film. But being on set that night, one of the things we had discussed [Paul DeNigris]: ahead of time was even though the Cragon is made out of energy, it needs [Paul DeNigris]: to feel dangerous. It needs to feel like it can actually influence [Paul DeNigris]: our world. We need it to attack Steve. We needed to feel like Max and company [Paul DeNigris]: are in danger when it's... It comes into the garage. We need Eugene t

o, [Paul DeNigris]: Eugene is scared witless out of it at a certain point. We need to motivate [Paul DeNigris]: that, right? It has to feel dangerous and real. And we needed a reference, [Paul DeNigris]: you know, like Jeremy needed to know where to point the camera. Where's [Paul DeNigris]: the thing's head? [Paul DeNigris]: So we made this really ridiculous puppet. It's just a green [Paul DeNigris]: ball on a stick with two little LED lights for where the eyes are supposed [Paul DeNigris]: to

be. And, you know, and the S&M gimp collar on. [Paul DeNigris]: bound by a chain. Yeah. [Scott]: I can't tell how many people wore that damn thing on set. It’s in like half [Scott]: of the Behind the Scenes photos from that night. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And in that big reveal shot, Scott, I think [Paul DeNigris]: you were the puppeteer for part of that, for the big reveal. So you come walking in the behind the scenes [Scott]: Yeah, that's right. [Paul DeNigris]: footage, y

ou know, carrying this thing and trying to evoke your badass [Paul DeNigris]: self to give us some reference for how the Cragon should move. And then I [Paul DeNigris]: had to, of course, jump in. Right? What's the point of being visual effects [Paul DeNigris]: supervisor if you can't be ridiculous on set? [Scott]: you killed it. Yeah, it was awesome. We got to dig up that behind the scenes footage [Paul DeNigris]: into the show here. But then the other thing we did was we wanted the Cragon to c

harge [Paul DeNigris]: down the hallway and knock pictures and stuff off the wall. So, you know, production designer, [Paul DeNigris]: Jennifer Nesbitt, she put up all these pictures on the wall and then you [Paul DeNigris]: guys just rolled a long time and I went one by one and knocked things off [Paul DeNigris]: the wall. And then we combined all of that so that as it barrels down the [Paul DeNigris]: hallway, pictures are flying off and there's little sparks, little arcs [Paul DeNigris]: of e

nergy coming off and all of that stuff. Again, to try and make it feel real. [Scott]: It totally yeah it sold it man and that was Jen's house too wasn't it? [Scott]: Yeah it was. God bless her she let us destroy her house for that [Scott]: couple of days too. Yeah. [Paul DeNigris]: Right. And then the last the last bit that I love and it's just a it's such [Paul DeNigris]: a simple thing when the when the Cragon gets vaporized right by the what [Paul DeNigris]: did you guys call it again? He hit

s the button... the vortex. [Jeremy]: Some... Vortex... Something Vortex. [Scott]: It was a really long name. Yeah, it [Scott]: was some kind of disruptor, some kind of EMP pulse type in theory. Yeah. I don't know [Scott]: what it was. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, the EMP vortex, right? So Max slaps that button and it zaps the [Paul DeNigris]: mini bosses away and it vaporizes the Cragon. We had the, so now the digital [Paul DeNigris]: mini bosses away and it vaporizes the Cragon. So now the digital

[Paul DeNigris]: Cragon is wearing a digital collar that is a replica of the real Gimp collar [Paul DeNigris]: that we had on set. And then I think I begged you, I was like, please... [Paul DeNigris]: just give me a shot of the collar hitting the floor. [Paul DeNigris]: And you're like, all right, if there's time, and I was like, come on, just [Paul DeNigris]: put it on the floor and just drop the color in the shot. And you did it [Paul DeNigris]: and it's in the cut because you see the thing va

porize and you see the [Paul DeNigris]: digital color kind of fall through it as it disappears and then you cut [Paul DeNigris]: to the practical color falling and there's little red wisps coming off of [Paul DeNigris]: it. And the collars, they don't really match. It's one of those like, if you [Paul DeNigris]: really investigate [Paul DeNigris]: the cut, yeah, it cuts from this big to this big. [Scott]: His neck was stretching it out. [Paul DeNigris]: But it's... I mean, it's but it makes it f

eel like that thing was really [Paul DeNigris]: there. It really had a chain around its neck. It really had this collar [Paul DeNigris]: on and it all ties together. It's just these stupid low budget little [Paul DeNigris]: tricks, just like 60 [Paul DeNigris]: seconds. Jeremy, just give me this shot, please. [Scott]: gonna make all of our lives easier. Just trust me. Yeah, and it did, man. [Scott]: It sold it. [Paul DeNigris]: what's... What's something that you took away from Max Reload, from

the [Paul DeNigris]: VFX process in particular, that has kind of changed the way you do things [Paul DeNigris]: or maybe has influenced or informed how you approach future projects or [Paul DeNigris]: how you might tackle a future film.. ahem, sequel. [Jeremy]: Pre-production, [Jeremy]: planning shots, you know, planning everything. That's become a huge part [Jeremy]: of it. You know, that's something that we've heard, especially when you're running [Jeremy]: a business, time is money. And if yo

u don't put in the time, you will [Jeremy]: spend more money. So making sure that we're planning more, making sure [Jeremy]: that things are dialed in more, having conversations about how things [Jeremy]: will look, how they should be shot, how to support the CG in camera. Practical [Jeremy]: versus CG. Yeah. All that stuff is heavily influenced how we've adjusted [Jeremy]: and changed and grown. [Scott]: I agree, man. Yeah, conversations are cheap, right? [Scott]: But they can be very valuable

. You know, it's like having those pre-production [Scott]: conversations with yourself and talking with our team through exactly what [Scott]: we want things to look like and pull taking the time to pull references. [Scott]: I think it's an easy trap to fall into, particularly if you have a skilled [Scott]: team to say that phrase that everyone jokes about and everyone hates, oh, [Scott]: we can fix it in post. And the greatest wizards in the world, they can, [Scott]: at great expense and at gre

at cost in terms of time. So, you know, don't [Scott]: rest on the skill of your team in that way, but leverage that time and [Scott]: pre-pro if you've got it, to communicate with your team and make sure [Scott]: you're truly on the same page and do pre-vis, man. Storyboards, even if [Scott]: it's a napkin sketch, all the way up through putting together cool look [Scott]: books and textures. We do all of that now, which I'm sure it makes you [Scott]: happy to hear when we rope you into the next

, you know, feature, Paul, [Scott]: those things will be in place where we had some of those things on Max, [Scott]: but certainly a lot of them were like, ahh we’ll figure it out. We'll figure [Scott]: it out after we shoot it. We know we need to shoot so you can have it [Scott]: as a canvas, but and you know, [Jeremy]: Devil’s advocate. We wouldn't have made this [Jeremy]: movie if we didn't have that spirit. We would not have, because it's, it [Jeremy]: takes a lot of work. it's very daunting

and you start to quickly realize [Jeremy]: that you cannot actually do what you had set out to do. But when you just [Jeremy]: throw yourself in, you will figure a way out. So the [Jeremy]: devil’s advocate is the naivete of going into this, that the world's our oyster [Jeremy]: is the only reason we made this film. [Scott]: Indie film spirit, man. If you let [Scott]: the lawyers and accountants approve everything before they let you do anything, [Scott]: you'll never make anything. But if you

go into it like a knucklehead like [Scott]: we did with a willing team of badasses, something cool can come out [Scott]: of it. That was the case with Max. [Paul DeNigris]: So planning, planning and pre-production, but not so much that you paralyze yourself [Paul DeNigris]: with planning. [Scott]: Right. Well said. [Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, I think that's the thing. A lot of, the other thing you said was, when [Paul DeNigris]: it's a business, you're burning money, right? A lot of independent film

makers [Paul DeNigris]: don't necessarily, when they're first getting started, they don't necessarily [Paul DeNigris]: treat it like a business. They treat it as art first and business second, [Paul DeNigris]: and it's really, they're hand in hand. One doesn't happen without the other. [Paul DeNigris]: You know, everything moves on time and money, time and money is always [Paul DeNigris]: the enemy. And you have to you have to respect that. And the only way [Paul DeNigris]: to do that is to appr

oach it as a business. We may not all be making money [Paul DeNigris]: on it. Right? It's an independent film. It's ultra low budget. Nobody's getting [Paul DeNigris]: rich at that budget level. But at the same time, money is a finite resource, [Paul DeNigris]: right? [Scott]: Absolutely. Yeah, people aren't going to show up when that money runs dry for [Scott]: even with the most ambitious artistic crew, you know, and when you're working [Scott]: with OPM, man, other people's money, you better

damn well have good justification [Scott]: for how you're spending it and that time. [Paul DeNigris]: Right on. So a young independent filmmaker comes to you and says, I have this [Paul DeNigris]: idea. I watched Max Reload and I was inspired and I want to make a movie [Paul DeNigris]: that relies heavily on VFX, but I have no idea where to start. What do [Paul DeNigris]: you tell them? [Scott]: We just give them your card. [Jeremy]: And then we tell them to not. [Scott]: Don't do it! [Scott]: N

o, I mean, it's a healthy conversation. [Jeremy]: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, we [Jeremy]: had, I mean, both of us a decade of experience before we even, you know, [Jeremy]: it's like you get out of film school and you're like, I'm the director. I [Jeremy]: want to be the director. I want to make movies. I want to make another [Jeremy]: Star Trek movie. And it's like, yeah, dude, no. Like, how about make [Jeremy]: a narrative film that has zero VFX and learn how to tell a story. [Scott]: Dude,

if I could go back and have this conversation with us five years ago, [Scott]: I'd be like, look, let's do our Reservoir Dogs first before we go do, you [Scott]: know, Ghostbusters on our dime. [Jeremy]: Well, yeah, it's, you know, it's, um, [Jeremy]: I always looked at it when I went to film school as, okay, what can I, [Jeremy]: what do I absolutely know that I can do well? Good or well, right? There's [Jeremy]: a lot of ideas that I have that I'm way more passionate about, but I could [Jerem

y]: not pull them off, right? It's going to be bad. So if I just continue [Jeremy]: to stick with the things that I can do well, I will learn enough and over [Jeremy]: time I'll get to the thing that I actually wanted to do in the first place. [Scott]: Midget porn. [Jeremy]: Obviously. Paul, I don't know why you have this guy in your podcast. [Scott]: We’re hitting that mark. [Jeremy]: But no, you know, [Paul DeNigris]: You just got me demonetized. Thanks. [Jeremy]: It's, it's baby steps, man.

I mean, everyone wants to make their best idea [Jeremy]: first. And that's oftentimes not going to pan out. You know, it's that's [Jeremy]: just the reality because of, of skill, time, money, many, many factors. Start [Jeremy]: small and just perfect your craft until you are at the point to where you [Jeremy]: can really do that thing. You're extremely passionate about. [Scott]: Dude. It sounds trite, [Scott]: we talk about this all the time. We talk about it with our team who [Scott]: a lot of

them are very, they're all very talented, but they're all younger. [Scott]: For the most part on the content creation side, it's like you got one of these [Scott]: in your pocket. You got a studio that we didn't grow up, none of us did, [Scott]: having. And it's not about the gear. It's not about having star power. [Scott]: Show me what you can do with that. If you can't show me something with that, [Scott]: who's going to give you money to make that big thing that's inside of your [Scott]: head

? Why should they? That's a good question for every up and coming content [Scott]: creator, right? Particularly aspiring filmmakers. [Paul DeNigris]: Great advice, great advice. So where can people find Max Reload to watch? [Paul DeNigris]: I know it's out in distribution and lots of places, but where can they easily find it? [Scott]: Yeah, man. It's on Amazon. If you go through any of the Amazon channels [Scott]: or if you have a subscription to Prime, it's on there. You can get it through [Sco

tt]: Tubi, Peacock, Redbox, still has it on the Redbox digital. It was in their [Scott]: machines for a while, which was a trip. I mean, who's using physical media [Scott]: anymore, but some people were. And it's on a number of other streaming platforms. [Scott]: The only one that we didn't sign a deal with was Netflix and pretty much [Scott]: everywhere else. It's available, man. [Paul DeNigris]: And is it available outside the US? [Jeremy]: Yeah, it's distributed, distributed physically in Jap

an [Scott]: Spain, Germany, [Scott]: is coming up [Jeremy]: and then Europe somewhere. [Scott]: Europe, Taiwan. Yeah, the UK. [Jeremy]: We have like a Japanese version and a UK version, it’s pretty cool. [Scott]: Dude those posters are rad. [Paul DeNigris]: Where can people find out more about what you guys are up to? [Jeremy]: Yeah. www.offensivegroup.com. That's our website. That's the handle [Jeremy]: for most of our Instagram stuff. [Scott]: @offensivegroup. [Jeremy]: We've some cool stuff

coming up. We're trying to [Jeremy]: bring more of the narrative, um, storytelling to marketing in a, in a really [Jeremy]: unique way. Um, so that's, yeah, we've got some stuff in the works. We've [Jeremy]: done some really cool things. Some, some more narrative things, some more [Jeremy]: action oriented things. We're just trying to ramp that side up. [Scott]: Heavy on [Scott]: the sci-fi tactical action. Shorter format content lets us experiment more. [Scott]: So we're doing a lot of that. A

nd then there's Jeremy's OnlyFans. [Jeremy]: It's OnlyFeet [Jeremy]: though. So, you know. [Jeremy]: It's actually, I'm working on OnlyGrans. There's a lot of grandmas out there [Scott]: OnlyGrans. [Jeremy]: They make cookies, come on dude. Like it's like a cooking thing. [Scott]: I'm sorry, Paul. This is what [Paul DeNigris]: Alrighty. [Scott]: you get. Dude, we haven't seen you in long enough. [Paul DeNigris]: All right. Well, with that, I don't know. There's no way to follow that [Paul DeNi

gris]: up. So I'm going to thank Scott and Jeremy for being part of this episode. [Paul DeNigris]: Love you guys. Loved working [Scott]: Love you brother. [Paul DeNigris]: on Max Reload. Can't wait to do it again. Let's do that Max Reloaded sequel [Paul DeNigris]: one of these days. [Scott]: Let’s party, let’s party, brother. [Paul DeNigris]: Thanks so much for joining us [Paul DeNigris]: on today's episode of the VFX for Indies podcast. [Paul DeNigris]: You can find transcripts, images and othe

r cool stuff at our website. [Paul DeNigris]: VFXforIndies.com. [Paul DeNigris]: If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, follow [Paul DeNigris]: like rate review comment on either [Paul DeNigris]: YouTube or your favorite podcast app. [Paul DeNigris]: On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X-Ray, I'm chief pixel pusher [Paul DeNigris]: Paul DeNigris and we all thank you so much for your support of the show. [Paul DeNigris]: See you next time.