(soft upbeat music) - This is Katrin with
Disability Rights New York. Welcome to our podcast,
Empire State of Rights, where we bring you information
on the most relevant topics regarding disability rights and advocacy. Today, we welcome disability
rights activist, author, public speaker, and workshop
facilitator, Mary Fashik. She's here to discuss
her evolving advocacy in the online space, the harms of online
harassment and bullying, and how the community
can provide a platform for constructive
conversations. Mary is a transnational, transracial adoptee who
was born in Lebanon. She is the founder of
disability justice movement, Upgrade Accessibility. She is also a Susan M. Daniels Disability Mentoring Hall of Fame inductee and award-winning podcaster. Mary's activism is centered around the disability justice principle and intersectionality. She strives to use her
platform to uplift the voices of most marginalized in the disability and chronically ill community. Mary, welcome back and t
hank
you for joining us today. - It's great to be back. Thank you for having me. - And as you know, before we start, we will provide our self-descriptions. Mary, why don't you go first? - Absolutely. I am a North African, West
Asian Lebanese-born woman with light brown skin. I have curly hair and I'm
wearing a fall-inspired top with different colored leaves on it. I'm also wearing glasses and
have black headphones on. - Thank you, Mary. And I am a white 50-year-old
woman with brown, wavy hair. I
have a pink shirt on today and some dangly earrings that
have brown flowers on them. And I use the pronouns she and her. Mary, every time we talk, and as I was giving your
bio in the beginning, I always just, I'm not just
amazed, I am so impressed and grateful to be able to
have a conversation with you. The work that you do is incredible. So I want the audience who have maybe not heard you speak
before on our podcast to learn a little bit more about you and the work that you do. - You know, I w
as thinking about that when you all asked me, like, well, "Describe the work you do." I'm like, "Well, you know,
the work I do changes," right? It changes depending on the space I'm in. Sometimes I'm in a space with a organization, a nonprofit, where I'm doing workshops and I'm teaching about disability justice, disability history, and I'm a teacher, I'm a facilitator, and I'm educating individuals in companies and spaces that aren't familiar with these topics. But then other times, I'm a storyt
eller. I help to tell stories of the most marginalized in the disabled community
through my podcast. Every time I'm an organizer, I organize a accessible Pride event every year called Pride Our Way. And other times, I do online advocacy, which is real, authentic advocacy. A lot of times online advocacy gets criticized as not being real advocacy, but it is real, true, and authentic. So I do a lot of different work. My work cannot and should not be compartmentalized. - I really appreciate you sayi
ng that. And as soon as you started responding, I was thinking about the challenges that advocates in and of themselves have. And when you're talking about the change in not just the spaces that you work in, but also the daily, weekly, monthly, annual changes that
happen culturally, right? So, we are faced with new experiences and new pieces of adversity,
unfortunately, often as well as a lot of wins. So there is good along with that when talking about the advocacy that especially the
work that
you're doing, and when we talk about disability rights and disability justice,
intersectionality, equity, multi-marginalized members of communities, these are words that we are
very familiar with, right? Like, we talk about 'em all the time. We have, this is part of our conversation and we have discussed before, and I think it is important to continue discussing the differences between a lot of these terms, specifically disability
rights and disability justice, and how those two things while are
in the same area of work, they are not the same. So let's start with that and then we'll move to intersectionality and multi-marginalized, because again, we have a full conversation around the differences
in the words themselves. So let's start with disability rights and disability justice. - So obviously you could go and you could, like,
look up the difference, the different issues of the two. But when I go into a space where I have to explain to individuals who I'm not really familiar
with th
e disabled community, the difference between the two, my analogy is disability rights means I have access to a building, I have access to get in the building. Disability justice is more time in the building, more time in that space. I have equity as a person. So rights is just making sure I can get into the space. But justice means I have the same equity as non-disabled individuals. - And let me follow up and talk about how the
disability justice movement, the importance of having people who are
part of the disability community who have lived experience of being a part of the
disability community, that they are leading this movement. Talk a little bit about
why it's so important that the leaders of this movement are in fact people with lived experience. - Well, I mean, how can I give an opinion on something I've never experienced? Like, at least give an informed opinion, right? So I could have an opinion, but, you know, I told this story when
we talked the last time, like, every time I
give an interview, I tell my story about the inaccessible bathroom at my local grocery store. And I came out of that
inaccessible bathroom and I said, "I'm tired
of non-disabled people deciding what is accessible
for me and for others." Like, a person who is
not a wheelchair user, how can they understand that every wheelchair is a different size, that my wheelchair may not
fit in the accessible stall, but a push wheelchair might. But we both need that stall. So it's important that those
who hav
e that lived experience, who know what it's like
to be in that space, who know what it's like
to face discrimination, to face prejudice, do not have access, do not have equity to explain to those other individuals who do have access, who do have equity why that's important. Like, for non-disabled people, I think sometimes it's
difficult for them to understand that me just being able to get in a building is not enough. - That's right. And so to further even
the conversation about having the conve
rsations
and getting the input, we hear a lot about intersectionality. Multi-marginalized is another way that we are incorporating
talking about equity. Can we talk a little bit
about how intersectionality and multi-marginalized, while again are in the same area of work, they have some finite differences. Let's just talk a little
bit about that as well. - So one thing I have been saying about disability and
intersectionality is that disability intersects at every identity. And until society meet
s us at those intersections, we will not achieve collective liberation. Disabled individuals have to be seen as whole beings. And that's why the topic
of intersectionality is so important. And then when we talk about
being multi-marginalized, there are multiple ways that a person can be multi-marginalized. If you are, if you identify as a woman and you are a disabled white woman, you are multi-marginalized, but you are not multi-marginalized in the same way as a Black
or brown disabled woman. An
d I would like to just say myself as a brown disabled woman, I still have privilege over a Black disabled woman. Just like a white disabled
woman has privilege over myself, I also have privilege and I have to recognize their purpose. So yes, you can be
white, disabled, a woman, or you can be white, queer, and disabled, and you're multi-marginalized, but you're not multi-marginalized in the same way as a Black,
disabled, queer individual. So there are nuances to identity and how we claim identiti
es. - I really appreciate you talking all the way through that with us. There's often a broad stroke, a broad brush when we talk about a lot of advocacy and movements, and I suppose I should say
not when we talk about it, but as it is brought out into the world where through media and even
how legislation is passed, it's often with a very broad stroke. And the nuances within each community really need to start being looked at and addressed in a different way. And so when we're talking about
advo
cacy and self-advocacy, as well as how are we doing
this now through our media. I feel like when we
look back over the last, I would even say five years, how things have changed with technology, how it is that we're able to message and get information out,
there's a lot of information that I think the general population now has access to that didn't before. And I do think that it's helping, it's helping raise awareness. And with everything, there
is another side of this. So let's talk about a to
pic
that is pretty close to you. You've had some personal
experience with online harassment, and let's talk about
how it's changed the way that you are working right now. We talked about your bio in the beginning. You are not someone who is, who's comfortable with not doing work. You enjoy being busy and the work that you do is
propelling you every day. So let's talk about your experience and in general, how is this affecting how messaging is being
related through the media now? - You know, I've
always been okay with not being palatable and that's fine. I always say, "I'm not palatable, disability's not palatable." And that's okay, you know, and when I started the
Upgrade Accessibility movement online, from day one, I've always had opposition
to what I've said. And after five years of receiving, you know, harassment through DMs and just people misunderstand and say, "Well, you just
can't take criticism." That's not true. There is criticism and then there is outright harassment, outrigh
t bullying. And after five years of that harassment and bullying that came to a head, after I posted something that
many people misunderstood, I have decided to walk away for the time being and it may be permanent from posting on the Upgrade Accessibility social media account, because at this point, no matter what I say, there's going to be
someone who is going to accuse me of doing
something that I'm not doing and the increase about, the best interest of
the disabled community has always been m
y goal. And I've always been accused
of the exact opposite. So for my mental health, for my wellbeing, I have stepped away. It hurts to step away, because it took five years to build what I had. And to think that one post that was misconstrued by a number of people just kind of pulled the
rug out from under me. It was hard and it's still hard. It's hard, because I'm not
done advocating, right? And I'm like, "Well, how can I do this in a different way now?" And I'm struggling to
figure out how to
do that. - I think that's a great point. There are other ways, right? And when we think of pre-social media, I am someone who was a
pre-social media person who was still reading
a physical newspaper, there, everything has evolved, right? There are, technology is evolving, communication is evolving. How are we participating in advocacy and doing that in a way that is not just getting the message out, but is also creating personal boundaries, boundaries within a system
that on social media, there
are no checks and balances. And we have seen that online bullying, it's not just toxic. It is taking some real, there are some real palatable issues, I shouldn't even say issues, results of online harassment that are ongoing. And we see this in younger communities, in high schools, in middle schools. We see this with, in small towns and small areas. This isn't something that is
happening on a global level only with celebrities, right? There's almost, I don't wanna say, like,
there's an expectat
ion, but really this is an issue when we talk about online
harassment and toxicity, that is really affecting
our culture as a whole. And so removing yourself
specifically in this, and also for other people in the audience who think I need to take a step back, because it is best for me. I do think that that in and of
itself will create a movement and a hopeful change in behavior. And I look forward to the ways that you are going to continue to pivot and to continue to get your word out, because t
he information advocacy that you're doing is necessary. It's not just necessary, I think it's crucial to hear your voice and to give voice to
the disability community in the specific way that you are. So I am definitely
looking forward to that. And when we talk about celebrity, right? And now we see this in
the social media area as influencers, and that's
another catch word, right? It's another key word that
we're seeing everywhere. And influencers are everywhere and in every industry, in every
space, both digitally and physical spaces. I think that there's a lot of confusion between who is an influencer
and who's an advocate. Let's talk about this and give us your insight on the difference and how these two types of, I don't even wanna say influence, these two types of information really are, they're at
odds with each other. - So, I guess I'll probably get criticized for what I say here and then that's fine, because I'm used to it. But, you know, and I wanna say there's nothing wrong
with being an influencer if that's what you wanna do, right? Like, I'm not of that age to be one, you know, I don't have
that influencer aesthetic. I wish I did, but I don't. But, you know, like, influencers are like the ones who
are promoting a service or promoting a product or, you know, they build a brand around who they are and they-- that's their goal is to
promote certain things. An advocate, I want to specifically say a disability rights advocate is advocating for the entire community. Th
e influencer uses "I," the advocate uses "we." - That is a great way to break that down. And when we're talking about influencers and really, you know,
curating a personal brand and really there's
nothing wrong with that. That, if that is what
you're doing, that is great. I do think that absolutely,
I love the distinction. Influencer is using I, and
advocate, it's using we. And when we look at the digital space and we look at how advocacy is moving through the digital space, I do believe that th
at is a way to really separate the
two types of messaging. And so when thinking about advocates, and it's so amazing that every year, we see new and different advocates coming on the scene in a different way and bringing a lot of the same messages around equity and
intersectionality and inclusion. Let's talk about advice that you would give
advocates that are thinking, "Okay, well, I wanna be an activist and I'm not sure really what
methodology I wanna use. Do I wanna go into the digital space?
Do I wanna be someone
that is on the ground working in communities one-on-one?" Talk a little bit about your experience and your journey as an advocate
moving from space to space. - So I hope you don't mind if I pivot the question a tiny bit, because I think there's
something important that needs to be said. I am 46 years old. I am in that forgotten demographic in the disabled community. I was almost 13 when the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law. I remember the before and the a
fter of the ADA. A lot of the advocates and
activists that we're seeing now were born the year the
ADA was signed or after. So, always know is the space after the Americans with Disabilities Act, there is nothing wrong with that, but those of us who are not the age of the older advocates, we're not in our 60s or 70s, we're in on mid-40s, are being forgotten about, because what's the focus
now are the young voices, which again, that is fine. But there are those of us
who will love to mentor, who
say, "Hey, don't forget about us who are still advocating, who do TikToks, who do Instagram," who do (indistinct), which is not, we are in those social media spaces just like the younger generation. And there are some in their 30s who say, "Well, I don't do TikToks
because I'm too old." Well, I'm 46 and I do take TikToks. So you're not too old to occupy a digital space. But for those who are wanting to advocate, you can occupy in-person spaces and digital spaces. The digital spaces do not and ca
nnot be forgotten, because most of the disabled community relies on social media. We rely on digital spaces. So it's important that advocates while holding in-person events, consider having an online component so that everyone can be included. Your work, in order for your
advocacy could be inclusive, that online component must be there. - Those are really great points. And I love you bringing up mentoring and that's, of course, I'm thinking, "Well, of course that's where
Mary's going to pivot to
. She's going to be mentoring and really passing on this knowledge." And it's lived experience knowledge. As you said, having the
experience of pre-ADA and post-ADA is a demographic. You are part of a demographic that, really thinking about the information coming from both sides of that is crucial for new advocates coming on to really hear about and what has changed and what still needs to change. I love your inclusion
of creating online space with in-person events. We saw with the shutdown
that
online events were more accessed and more attended than other in-person
events across the board. So it's something to say, "Okay, well, we're addressing whether or not someone
can actually attend this given the space that it's in." Or even if they're comfortable, people may not even be
comfortable going out as we saw in the shutdown. So thank you so much for
bringing both of those things up. And I know that there are some
projects that are coming up, I wanna move to those, but also I wanted to
just check in and see, are there other projects
that you are working on? I know of one that I
can't wait to talk about, but are there other projects or future developments
that are coming up for you that you would like to
share with us today? - Well, for right now, I am working on a short bio documentary and it's called "Becoming Mary: The journey from adoptee to advocate." And for years, people are like, "You need to write your autobiography, you need to tell your story." And I love film, I lov
e TV. This is what I've always
wanted to do from a young age. So I was like, "Why not do it in a different format?" And then maybe it will open the door to being able to write my autobiography. I would love to do that, but this is like the first step towards that ultimate goal. And then my first children's book "Adventurous Adeline", that pushed back a tiny bit, but it will be out in September and I am excited. There might be a series of books. I can't really say one way
or the other right now,
but the idea is that
miss, little miss Adeline will have her own series
of books coming out. But that is a wait and see. I'm not really supposed to
say one way or the other, but if this book does well, that's definitely an option. - Well, I can't wait to see
the publication of the book and we will put all of the information for our audience in the
notes of the podcast and how to contact you,
the work that you're doing, the book that will be published, and really other ways
to get in touch with y
ou for people who would love
to be mentored by you. So Mary, it is always
wonderful to speak with you and I love your insight on so much, and I just really appreciate you sharing your experiences with us and really you're still advocating through our conversations
and your advocacy, although you've taken a minute here to decide what you wanna do. You're still giving us all the information and we appreciate it so much. - I appreciate you having me. It's always a pleasure to
spend some time with y
ou. - Well, I can't wait to
speak with you again. Thank you so much, Mary. - Thank you. - [Narrator] Empire State of Rights has been brought to you by
Disability Rights New York, your source for disability
rights and advocacy. If you enjoyed our program,
make sure to subscribe, like, and share this post. The video for this episode is available on our YouTube channel with closed captioning
and ASL interpretation. If there is a subject you
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