Does Ontario Need an Education Overhaul?

>> Announcer: THE AGENDA WITH STEVE PAIKIN IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO's JOURNALISM. >> Steve: MORE LITERACY, MORE MATH, MORE MEASURABLE STUDENT OUTCOMES. ALL WITH MORE PROVINCIAL OVERSIGHT. THAT'S WHAT NEW LEGISLATION SETS OUT, AND TONIGHT WE'LL HEAR FROM THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION, STEPHEN LECCE, AND FROM SCHOOL BOARD TRUSTEES, ON THE WINS AND TENSIONS IN THIS OVERHAUL. ALSO, WE'LL EXPLORE WHETHER A NEW LOTTER

Y SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING SPECIAL PROGRAMS IN TORONTO HIGH SCHOOLS TRULY DELIVERS EQUITY WHILE STILL REWARDING STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT. IT'S TUESDAY, MAY 9th, AND THAT'S AHEAD, ON THE AGENDA. [♪] >> Steve: ONTARIO'S MINISTER OF EDUCATION RECENTLY INTRODUCED A BILL AIMED AT GETTING BOTH STUDENTS AND SCHOOL BOARDS BACK TO BASICS. MORE MATH AND LITERACY FOR STUDENTS, MORE TRAINING AND DIRECTION FROM QUEEN'S PARK FOR SCHOOL TRUSTEES. THAT MINISTER IS, OF COURSE, STEPHEN LECCE, THE PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE

MPP FOR KING-VAUGHAN, AND HE JOINS US NOW HERE IN OUR STUDIO. NICE TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE. >> Hon. Stephen Lecce: THANKS SO MUCH. >> Steve: I'VE GOT TO DO ONE OF THESE FULL DISCLOSURE THINGS OFF THE TOP HERE BECAUSE WE HAVE TO REMIND EVERYBODY TVO PROVIDES THE MINISTRY'S DISTANCE AND ONLINE LEARNING. NOT THE AGENDA, NOT THIS PROGRAM, NOT THE JOURNALISM SIDE, BUT THE ILC, THE INDEPENDENT LEARNING CENTRE, WHICH HAS BEEN A DISTANCE LEARNING PARTNER WITH THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION FOR ACTUALLY ALMOST

AS MANY YEARS AS MY LIFE AND YOUR LIFE COMBINED. WE GOT THAT ON THE RECORD. BILL 98, THE BETTER SCHOOLS AND STUDENT OUTCOMES ACT, WHAT'S THE MISSION HERE? >> IT'S TO STRENGTHEN THE OUTCOMES ASSOCIATED WITH STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT. I THINK THE OVERWHELMING ANCHOR AND MISSION OF THE BILL IS TO ELEVATE STANDARDS AND, FRANKLY, ELEVATE THE AMBITIONS WE HAVE FOR OUR KIDS. I THINK WHAT WE SEE IS GOOD WORK BEING DONE IN PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS. WE CANNOT DISCOUNT AMAZING CHANGES OF OUTCOMES, OF EMPLOYMENT,

OF GRADUATION RATES AND OF CREATING MEANINGFUL PATHS TO LIVES OF PURPOSE AND DIGNITY. HOWEVER, I THINK ONE OF MY ROLES AS A PUBLIC SERVANT IS TO PLAY CHALLENGE FUNCTION IN ANY SYSTEM. >> Steve: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, "PLAY CHALLENGE FUNCTION"? >> TO INSIST THAT THE AGENCIES, BOARDS, COMMISSIONS, THE PEOPLE WHO INTERFACE WITH THE NEXT GENERATION OF OUR COUNTRY, ARE DOING THEIR BEST. AND THUS THE BILL WAS DESIGNED AND THE SHORT TITLE OF THE BILL, IT IS ABOUT BETTER SCHOOLS AND BETTER STUDENT OUTCOM

ES, GRADUATION RATES, GREATER LEVELS OF STUDENTS ATTENDING SCHOOL, REDUCTION IN ABSENTEEISM, AND MOST ESPECIALLY A STRENGTHENING OF SKILLS DEVELOPMENT WITH RESPECT TO READING, WRITING, AND MATH. WE DO BELIEVE THE FOUNDATIONAL SKILLS, IF YOU DON'T GET THOSE RIGHT, IF WE DON'T MASTER THOSE FUNDAMENTALS, ALL THE OTHER GOOD STUFF WE TEACH, SOCIAL/EMOTIONAL LEARNING, EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, COLLABORATION -- ALL THE OTHER SOFT SKILLS THAT ARE ALSO PARAMOUNT, WILL NOT BE, FRANKLY -- WILL NOT BE AS VALU

ED UNLESS WE GET THE FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE REALLY LEANING INTO THAT AND THE EQAO DATA THIS YEAR AND EVERY YEAR, FOR MANY YEARS HAVE REVEALED I THINK A CONCERNING FACT, WHICH IS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM AND SORT OF OPPOSE STATUS QUO MENTALITY IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR SOME TIME. >> Steve: HOW MUCH OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO FIX HERE IS PANDEMIC RELATED AND HOW MUCH IS SYSTEMIC RELATED? >> YOU KNOW, IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. I THINK THE

PANDEMIC EXACERBATED A REALITY THAT EXISTED BEFORE. WE HAD CHILDREN PRE-PANDEMIC, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO MATHEMATICS, NOT MEETING THE PROVINCIAL MATH STANDARD. THAT WAS TRUE REALLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY. WE'VE SEEN SOME AREAS OF REGRESSION, AND IT GOT COMPOUNDED IN THE PANDEMIC, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO MATH SKILLS. LOOK AT THE GRADE 9 MATH EQAO DATA -- PRETTY CONCERNING DATA POINTS. WE DESTREAMED THE CURRICULUM, WE'RE TRYING TO REALLY LIFT EVERYONE UP, AND EVEN STILL WITH MORE SUPPORTS

AND MORE INVESTMENT IN THAT SPECIFIC AREA, A DESTREAMED MATH, WE STILL SAW A NET REDUCTION WHERE THE MAJORITY OF STUDENTS ARE NOT AT THE PROVINCIAL MATH STANDARD. AND THEREFORE WHEN I SAY THAT DATA POINT TO YOU, I THINK ANYONE, EVEN IF I USED 2019 DATA, WOULD HAVE TO BE PERSUADED ON THE NUMBERS, ON THE DATA, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT THESE OUTCOMES CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTABLE BY ANY GOVERNMENT. THIS IS WHY I GOT BACK TO THAT CHALLENGE FUNCTION PRINCIPLE. >> Steve: GOTCHA. WHO IS IN THE BEST P

OSITION TO FIX THIS, YOU AT THE PROVINCIAL LEVEL OR SHOULD THE PRIORITIES BE SET BY ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD TRUSTEES, DIRECTORS OF EDUCATION, AND SO ON? >> I BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY ON THIS PRINCIPLE. I'M THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION FOR ALL ONTARIO STUDENTS IN OUR PUBLICLY FUNDED STUDENTS, OF WHICH WE HAVE 2 MILLION NO LESS, THE LARGEST IN THE COUNTRY. WE'RE PROUD OF THAT. AND YET, AS MINISTER, VERY POWERFUL TITLE, AND YET IN ACTUAL APPLICATION, I AM UNABLE TO SET UP PROVINCE-WIDE EXPECTATIONS WHEN IT

COMES TO ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT. NOW, YOU OR A PARENT OBSERVING RIGHT NOW MIGHT THINK: HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? IN WHAT OTHER MINISTRY IS POWER SO DEVOLVED AWAY FROM ELECTED PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT? AND THIS IS THE REALITY TODAY. I DON'T HAVE, UNTIL -- SHOULD THE BILL PASS -- AN AUTHORITY GRANT ME THROUGH STATUTORY FORCE, THE ABILITY TO SAY TO SCHOOL BOARDS: YOU SHALL FOCUS ON ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT. WE'RE GOING TO NOW REQUIRE SCHOOL BOARDS TO BUILD A BOARD IMPROVEMENT PLAN. PART OF THIS IS TO MEASURE RE

SULTS. PUBLIC FACING PLAN THAT'S PUBLICLY DEVELOPED WITH PARENTS. >> Steve: CONSULTATION? >> CONSULTATION BUILT IN. REQUIRED. IN FACT, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLAN CAN ONLY BE UNVEILED FOLLOWING MEANINGFUL CONSULTATION WITH PARENTS BECAUSE MANY OF THEM SAID, "I FEEL A BIT IGNORED." RATHER, LET ME REPHRASE THAT. MANY OF THEM FEEL VERY IGNORED WITH THE SYSTEM TODAY. AND THAT MAY BE A CHALLENGE ACROSS GOVERNMENTS. I'M NOT SUGGESTING JUST SCHOOL BOARDS ARE CHALLENGED WITH THIS. BUT WE GOT TO FIND A W

AY TO EMPOWER PARENT VOICES WITHIN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM. AND THEY HAVE SAID TO ME AND THE PREMIER: WE NEED TO ENSURE ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT IS THE FOUNDATION. NOW, THE BILL DOES A LOT MORE THAN THAT. BUT IT DOES ALLOW US TO CREATE AN ACCOUNTABILITY MEASUREMENT BY SAYING TO BOARDS: GO DEVELOP A PLAN, LOCALLY DEVELOPED -- CONSULT YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES. EVERY REGION IS DIFFERENT. IN THE NORTHWEST OF ONTARIO, IT'S GOING TO BE A DIFFERENT PLAN PERHAPS THAN TORONTO. AND THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD. >> Steve: BUT

WHAT'S THE "OR ELSE"? >> I THINK SCHOOL BOARDS APPRECIATE, THIS IS AN OBJECTIVE THEY CAN UNIFY BEHIND, AND I THINK THAT THEY ALSO UNDERSTAND IT'S GOING TO BE THE EDUCATION ACT, AN ACT THAT HAS NOT BEEN REVISED OR MEANINGFULLY OVERHAULED IN 25 YEARS. >> Steve: BUT YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO SAY TO THEM PRESUMABLY, "HERE IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO DO," AND IF YOU GET PUSHBACK FROM THEM AND THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IT, WHAT IS THE OR ELSE? >> I DON'T THINK, STEVE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE PUSHBACK FROM SCH

OOL BOARDS. WHEN WE SET OUT LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY, WE'VE NEVER HAD AN EXAMPLE, AT LEAST IN MY TENURE AS MINISTER, I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO WORK WITH US IN GOOD FAITH. WE HAVE DEMONSTRATED TO SCHOOL BOARD ASSOCIATIONS, WHOM I MEET WITH EVERY MONTH -- THERE'S NO MINISTER THAT HAS DONE THIS -- I HAVE CONTINUOUSLY MET WITH THEM. EVERY TWO WEEKS I DO A CALL WITH EVERY SCHOOL BOARD CHAIR AND DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION. WE STARTED THIS IN THE PANDEMIC, WE'VE MAINTAINED IT POST PANDEMIC, IN THE ENDEMIC, IF Y

OU WILL, BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE A PIPELINE TO GIVE ME ADVICE. THESE IDEAS ARE DEVELOPED IN PARTNERSHIP THROUGH THE VOICES OF PARENTS. WE'VE HEARD A LOT OF FEEDBACK. AND FRANKLY ALL SCHOOL BOARDS -- >> Steve: DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY'RE NOT DOING IT NOW? >> WELL, I THINK THE DATA IS A HELPFUL INDICATOR. WHEN YOU HAVE THE MAJORITY OF STUDENTS NOT AT THE PROVINCIAL MATH STANDARD, WHEN YOU HAVE DYSLEXIA CANADA SUGGESTING THAT A THIRD OF STUDENTS IN ONTARIO GRADUATE PHYSICALLY, WILL GE

T THEIR GRADUATION CERTIFICATE IN GRADE 12, AND YET NOT BE AT THE PROVINCIAL STANDARD FOR LITERACY FOR A GRADE 12 STUDENT -- THOSE NUMBERS TELL THE STORY. IF WE LOOK BEYOND THE DATA, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE'S LIVES. UNDER OUR GOVERNMENT, WHILE WE'VE INCREASED THE FUNDING AND WE'VE INCREASED THE STAFFING, THERE'S 8,000 MORE STAFF IN ONTARIO SCHOOLS AND YET THERE'S NOT MORE STUDENTS, WE'VE SEEN AN INCREASE IN GRADUATION FROM 85 TO 89 PERCENT. THAT'S A HUGE ACHIEVEMENT, AND THAT'S NOT BECA

USE OF GOVERNMENT. THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE GOOD WORK OF OUR EDUCATORS, BECAUSE OF COMMITMENT OF STAFF, THE FUNDING IN PART, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT REALLY DOES TAKE A VILLAGE AND WE'RE SEEING SOME MOVEMENT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION ON GRADUATION. BUT THE OTHER METRICS THAT MATTER TOO, THE CAPACITY OF A YOUNG PERSON TO READ FOR THEIR GRADE, TO BE FINANCIALLY LITERATE, TO HAVE FOUNDATIONAL SKILLS IS NOT AT THE LEVELS WE EXPECT, AND THUS WE'RE PUTTING A BILL ON THE TABLE THAT CREATES ACCOUNTABILITY

, THAT BINDS BOARDS TO BUILD PLANS THAT ADHERES TO PROVINCIAL OBJECTIVES ON STRENGTHENING THOSE SKILLS, AND FRANKLY TRIES TO CHANGE THE CULTURE FROM HOW WE BUILD SCHOOLS TO CERTIFY EDUCATORS. REALLY, IT'S A NECESSARY MODERN OVERHAUL OF THE SYSTEM. IT'S NOT STATIC. >> Steve: DAVID MOSCROP IS A GUY WHO WROTE A COLUMN FOR OUR WEBSITE THE OTHER DAY, EDUCATION FOCUSED, AND HIS TAKE WAS YOU GUYS ARE VERY INTERESTED NOWADAYS IN TRAINING PEOPLE FOR JOBS BUT NOT NECESSARILY EDUCATING PEOPLE TO BE CRITICA

L THINKERS. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT OBSERVATION? >> WELL, I ACTUALLY -- FIRST OF ALL, I AGREE -- I ACCEPT THE PREMISE THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT EMPLOYMENT. OUR MEASUREMENT OF SUCCESS IS NOT JUST A JOB, IT'S CREATING LIFE SKILLS, JOB SKILLS, IT'S ABOUT CREATING THE SOFT SKILLS THAT OFTEN MANY EMPLOYERS INCREASINGLY ARE ELEVATING NOW WHEN IT COMES TO LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT PERSON FOR THE JOB. THEIR CAPACITY TO COLLABORATE, TO COMMUNICATE, TO THINK CRITICALLY AND CREATIVELY. THOSE ARE IMPORTANT THI

NGS WE HARNESS IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM. I DO WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR. WHILE WE DO WANT YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET GOOD JOBS, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, WE WANT THEM TO BE EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT. WE'RE TRYING TO SUPPORT TECHNOLOGICALLY SAVVY, AMBITIOUS, GLOBALLY MINDED, PATRIOTIC, GOOD CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY WHO WANT TO GIVE BACK. BUT TO YOUR POINT, I THINK THE REASON WHY WE BROUGHT FORTH THE LEGISLATION IN THE FIRST PLACE IS BECAUSE WE ACCEPT WE CAN DO THINGS BETTER. AND OBVIOUSLY HAVING REVIEWED HOW WE B

UILD SCHOOLS IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY OF TORONTO WHERE WE ARE AT, FOR MANY COMMUNITIES IN THE GTHA, IT WILL TAKE A DECADE TO BUILD. AND I THINK A FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION -- I MEAN, LOOK, I SAY CHALLENGE -- I USED THAT POINT. YOU QUESTIONED ME EARLIER, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? TO ANY OBSERVER, RIGHT, AND IF YOU'RE OUT OF GOVERNMENT OR OUT OF EDUCATION, AND I COME IN AND SAID, SHOULD IT TAKE A DECADE TO BUILD A STANDARDIZED SCHOOL BUILT, THAT IS LITERALLY COPY AND PASTED VIRTUALL

Y EVERYWHERE IN ONTARIO WITH SOME MODEST DIFFERENCES BASED ON PERHAPS THE HISTORY OF THE COMMUNITY, YOU'D SAY THAT IS RIDICULOUS AND A WASTE OF TAX DOLLARS. AND YET THAT'S WHAT THE STATUS QUO LOOKS LIKE IN ONTARIO. WHEN WE HAVE THE SAME QUINTILE OF SCHOOL BOARDS, THE SAME ONES FOR A DECADE WITHOUT EXCEPTION AT THE BOTTOM OF PERFORMANCE, I WOULD ARGUE AN HONEST OBSERVER WOULD SAY SOMETHING'S GOT TO CHANGE. WHEN WE HAVE AN ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TEACHERS THAT DOES GOOD WORK BUT IT TAKES THEM MORE THAN

TWO TIMES THE AMOUNT OF TIME TO CERTIFY AN EDUCATOR FROM THE INTERNATIONAL -- FROM AROUND THE WORLD THAN IT DOES IN B.C.'S PROVINCIAL REGULATOR, I'D MAKE THE CASE THAT WHILE WE DO GOOD WORK, I THINK WE CAN DO MUCH BETTER, BE SMARTER AND MORE EFFICIENT IN OUR DELIVERY, AND THAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BILL. IT'S TO ELEVATE OUR STANDARDS. IT'S TO SET A HIGHER AIM FOR OUR KIDS TO GRADUATE INTO LIFE SKILLS THAT MATTER. >> Steve: THIS BILL -- ONE THING IT DOES DIFFERENTLY THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE IS I

T GIVES YOUR MINISTRY MORE POWER TO DO I GUESS WHAT YOU WILL WITH UNDERUTILIZED SCHOOL PROPERTIES. WHY DO YOU NEED THAT POWER? >> $63 BILLION OF SCHOOL BOARD CAPITAL ASSETS -- SCHOOL BOARDS ARE ONE OF THE LARGEST LANDLORDS IN THE COUNTRY, WHICH MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW. I BELIEVE THAT WHEN THE TAXPAYER PAYS FOR A SCHOOL AND A SCHOOL BOARD IS NOW DESPERATELY LOOKING TO BUILD A SCHOOL IN A GROWTH COMMUNITY AND THE OTHER BOARD HAS AN EMPTY SCHOOL THAT THEY'VE BEEN RENTING FOR 7 YEARS TO A PRIVATE SC

HOOL, TO A COMPANY, TO A SPORTS FACILITY, AND WE ALL KNOW THAT SCHOOL EXISTS AND IT COULD BE USED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF FRUSTRATION BECAUSE OF TERRITORIALISM. IT'S ON EVERYWHERE, BUT IT IS QUITE PRESENT, FRANKLY, ANY SCHOOL BOARD WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, THAT THERE ARE TERRITORIAL ELEMENTS. IT IS THE COMPETITIVE NATURE TO OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM. THAT IS A STRENGTH, BUT IT CAN MANIFEST IN A PROBLEMATIC WAY -- >> Steve: BETWEEN PUBLIC AND CATHOLIC AND FRENCH AND WHATEVER -- >

> EXACTLY, AND THAT'S HEALTHY BUT IT CAN CREATE AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF HOLDING BACK ASSETS. FOR OUR FRENCH SCHOOL BOARDS, WE'RE PROUD OF THEM, 25 YEARS OF EXCELLENCE, BUT THEY HISTORICALLY DIDN'T GET A LOT OF THE BENEFIT OF BUILDING UP THEIR ASSETS OVER TIME. SO THEY WOULD ARGUE THE ENGLISH SCHOOL, CATHOLIC, PUBLIC, WHATEVER IT IS, HAS A SCHOOL DOWN THE STREET BUT THEY'RE NOT SELLING IT TO ME AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, NOT FOR ANY OTHER REASON BUT THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BECAUSE IT MAY CREATE SOME C

OMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE -- >> Steve: YOU WANT THE RIGHT TO GET IN THERE AND SAY, "YOU'VE GOT TO SELL THEM." >> I BELIEVE THE PARENTS IN THE PROVINCE, THE BENCHMARK OF THEIR SUCCESS IS, IS A SCHOOL BEING BUILD CLOSE TO MY HOME QUICKLY OR OPEN FOR MY CHILD TO LEARN CLOSE TO HOME VERSUS BEING BUSSED OUT. SO MY POINT OF THIS PROVISION IS TO DO A FEW THINGS: THE FIRST IS TO ENABLE SCHOOL BOARDS TO DO JOINT USE PROJECTS BETWEEN THE BOARDS AND BETWEEN A SCHOOL BOARD AND A NON-PROFIT LIKE THE YMCA. WE C

AN LEVERAGE COMMUNITY TO BUILD BETTER RECREATIONAL FACILITIES FOR KIDS. SOMETHING THAT'S NOT DONE. 40 SCHOOLS LIKE THAT IN THE PROVINCE, THERE'S 5,000. SO THAT'S NOT A CULTURAL NORM. IT'S VERY UNUSUAL. YOU HAVE TO GET APPROVAL FROM THE MINISTRY. LET'S WAIVE THAT. GO AND LEVERAGE COMMUNITY, WORK TOGETHER, BUILD BETTER SCHOOLS FOR COMMUNITIES AND FOR CHILDREN. THE SECOND IS THE POWER OF THE MINISTRY TO SAY, IF A SCHOOL BOARD IS NOT GOING TO USE THE ASSET FOR THEMSELVES FOR LEARNING, THEN THEY HAVE

NOW A REQUIREMENT, AS PROPOSED IN THE LEGISLATION, TO GO TO THE CO-TERMINUS BOARD TO OFFER IT TO THEM. THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO PUT THEIR HAND UP SHOULD THEY SAY THEY DO NOT NEED IT, THERE'S NO INTENTION NOW OR IN THE MEDIUM TERM TO USE IT, THEN IT GOES TO A PROVINCIAL PRIORITY LIST WHICH WILL INCLUDE AREAS LIKE LONG-TERM CARE. IF AT THAT POINT, THE LONG-TERM CARE HOME WANTS TO USE IT TO BUILD, THEN IT WOULD GO TO THE OPEN MARKET. AND I THINK THAT'S A PRUDENT STEP. THE FIRST OBLIGATION IS TO KEEP I

T FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD. AND THE SALE OF THAT LAND, SO LET'S SAY TDSB HAS A SCHOOL THAT HASN'T BEEN USED SINCE 1995. THAT SCHOOL BEING SOLD, TO BE CLEAR, BECAUSE I READ DAVID AND OTHERS' COMMENTARY ONLINE. THAT SCHOOL'S SALE, THE PROCEEDS OF DISPOSITION, THE CASH FROM THAT SALE, STAYS WITH THE BOARD, THAT CAN ONLY BE USED FOR CAPITAL FOR EITHER BUILDING THEIR SCHOOLS OR MAINTAINING THEIR SCHOOLS, BECAUSE THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF BACKLOG CHALLENGES, 15 BILLION WHEN WE CAME TO POWER. THE POINT IS, I

T'S DESIGNED TO BETTER USE ASSETS FOR THE PURPOSE OF HELPING KIDS LEARN. IT'S DESIGNED TO CHANGE THE CULTURE BETWEEN SCHOOL BOARDS TO WORK TOGETHER, COLLABORATE WHEN IT COMES TO LEARNING. WE WON'T HAVE TOLERANCE FOR THAT TYPE OF TERRITORIALISM. IT'S HURTING KIDS. >> Steve: I GOTCHA. YOU KNOW WHAT? WE COULD GO ON. >> I KNOW. >> Steve: BUT THE OTHER GUESTS WANT A CHANCE AT THESE SUBJECTS AND MORE AS WELL. I'M GOING TO THANK THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION, STEPHEN LECCE, FOR COMING IN TO TVO TONIGHT AND

SHARING HIS VIEWS ABOUT BILL 98. AND WE'RE GRATEFUL. THANK YOU. >> Hon. Stephen Lecce: THANK YOU. [ ♪ ] >> Steve: ACCORDING TO A BILL INTRODUCED LAST MONTH, ONTARIO WANTS SCHOOLS TO FOCUS MORE ON READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC. IT ALSO WANTS THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION IN A POSITION TO DIRECT SCHOOL BOARDS AND HELP PLAN THE CURRICULUM THAT WILL DELIVER THOSE OBJECTIVES. WITH US FOR THEIR TAKE ON THIS OVERHAUL, LET'S WELCOME: CATHY ABRAHAM, PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO PUBLIC SCHOOL BOARDS' ASSOCIATI

ON AND A TRUSTEE IN THE KAWARTHA PINE RIDGE DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD HEADQUARTERED IN PETERBOROUGH; AND MIKE RAMSAY IS HERE, A TRUSTEE IN THE WATERLOO REGION DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD. WE'RE GRATEFUL TO HAVE YOU TWO WITH US HERE TONIGHT ON TVO. CATHY, TO YOU FIRST. REACTION TO THE MINISTER'S INTERVIEW. WHAT DID YOU HEAR THAT YOU LIKED, WHAT DID YOU HEAR THAT YOU DIDN'T LIKE? >> Cathy: WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS, SCHOOL BOARDS AND SCHOOL BOARD TRUSTEES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FOCUSED ON STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT AS WELL

AS WELL-BEING. SO WE HAVE NO DIFFICULTY AT ALL WITH FOCUSING ON STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY DOING IT. WE HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE LEGISLATION -- >> Steve: LIKE WHAT? >> Cathy: OR THE DETAILS OF THE LEGISLATION. ABOUT THE LOSS OF OUR ABILITY TO MAKE LOCAL-BASED DECISIONS. THAT WE AREN'T A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL PROVINCE, AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME FLEXIBILITY IN THESE DECISIONS, THE DECISION-MAKING, SO WE REFLECT THE COMMUNITIES WE LIVE IN BECAUSE WE ARE THE LOCALLY ELECTED

SCHOOL BOARDS -- >> Steve: HE DID ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IN THE INTERVIEW. HE SAID WHAT'S GOOD FOR NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO MAY NOT WORK IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO. >> Cathy: I UNDERSTAND THAT. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL, AS ALWAYS. WHILE WE HAVE SEEN THE PAPERS OR THE LEGISLATION, WE WERE NOT CONSULTED WITH PRIOR TO THE LEGISLATION, BEING INTERVIEWED, AND WE REALLY, REALLY NEED TO HAVE SOME MEANINGFUL CONSULTATION ON WHAT EXACTLY IT LOOKS LIKE. >> Steve: OKAY. MIKE, HOW ABOUT TO YOU? WHAT DID YOU LIKE, WHAT DI

D YOU DIDN'T LIKE? >> Mike: TO START, I DO BELIEVE BILL 98 IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT BOARDS HAVE BEEN FACING OVER THE LAST LITTLE WHILE AROUND STUDENT LEARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT. UNFORTUNATELY, THE EXPERIENCE AT MANY BOARDS IS THAT TRUSTEES HAVE NOT BEEN FOCUSED ON THAT AND HAVE THAT INABILITY SO FAR TO HOLD DIRECTORS OF EDUCATION ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE OUTCOMES. SO TO THAT END, I THINK THE MINISTER, IT'S A MOVE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. WHEN WE HAVE IN WA

TERLOO REGION ALONE 4,000 KIDS, 4,000 ELEMENTARY AGE STUDENTS, BEING EDUCATED IN THE EQUIVALENT TO HOME SCHOOLING, IN PODS, THAT'S TELLING US, THAT'S A HUGE MESSAGE BEING DELIVERED TO ELECTED TRUSTEES THAT THEY'RE NOT DELIVERING ON WHAT PARENTS WANT. AND WHEN THEY DO COME TO THE BOARD TO MAKE THEIR CONCERNS KNOWN AND TO ASK QUESTIONS, THEY'RE MET WITH VEXATIOUS CHALLENGES BY MANY BOARDS OF EDUCATION, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY THE MINISTER HAS STEPPED IN. IT'S A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. THERE AR

E SOME THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TWEAKED. BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT IT IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND IT'S RESPONDING TO THE CONCERNS OF MANY PARENTS AND MANY OF THE PARENTS THAT I'M HEARING FROM. >> Steve: WHAT NEEDS TWEAKING? >> Mike: WELL, I THINK WHERE MY COLLEAGUE AND I PROBABLY WOULD AGREE IS THAT WITH RESPECT TO HOW WE HANDLE REAL ESTATE, FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK WE COULD FIND SOME COMMON GROUND ON THAT BECAUSE I THINK BOARDS ARE MOST WELL-POSITIONED TO DEAL WITH REAL ESTATE WITH A FUTURISTIC

VIEW, OKAY? SO 30 YEARS FROM NOW, MR. LECCE WOULD NOT BE AROUND AS AN EDUCATION MINISTER, WILL BE ALIVE BUT NOT AROUND AS A MINISTER OF EDUCATION PERHAPS -- >> Steve: YOU NEVER KNOW. HE'S HAD THE JOB FOR A LONG TIME. >> Mike: BUT BOARDS WOULD BE GRAPPLING -- WE'RE NOT MAKING MORE LAND. SO WOULD BE GRAPPLING WITH BASICALLY FINDING SPACES TO PUT STUDENTS. I MEAN, WE'RE ATTRACTING MORE IMMIGRANTS AND SO FORTH. SO THAT COULD PROBABLY BE WALKED BACK AND TWEAKED. BUT IN TERMS OF THE FOCUS ON STUDENT L

EARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT, I'M WITH THE MINISTER ON THAT. >> Steve: OKAY. LET ME COME BACK TO THAT ISSUE OF THE REAL ESTATE LATER. WE DID TALK ABOUT THAT, AS YOU HEARD, AND HE DOESN'T QUITE SHARE YOUR VIEW ON THAT, NEEDLESS TO SAY. BUT LET ME FOCUS ON THE CONSULTATION. YOU SAID YOU DID NOT GET A HEADS-UP BEFORE THIS BILL WAS INTRODUCED. IS THAT RIGHT? >> Cathy: WE DID SEE IT. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUST BEING SHOWN WHAT THE BILL IS AND BEING CONSULTED WITH. WE CERTAINLY SAW IT, BUT THERE WAS

NO INDEPTH CONSULTATION. MIKE IS RIGHT. FOR INSTANCE, THE CONVERSATION ON THE LAND USE AND SURPLUS PROPERTIES. WE WOULD CERTAINLY LIKE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT OUR CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO WITH THE PROPERTY THAT WE OWN -- >> Steve: I WANT TO JUMP IN ON THAT. YOU HEARD HIM SAY THAT IN HIS EXPERIENCE WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IN THESE REAL ESTATE PLAYS IS THAT YOU FOLKS FOCUS WAY TOO MUCH ON LOCAL POWER AND TURF BATTLES AS OPPOSED TO THE BIGGER PICTURE HERE. AND HIS VIEW I

S, I'M BRINGING THE BIGGER PICTURE INTO PLAY HERE. YOUR RESPONSE? >> Cathy: FAIR ENOUGH. BUT I THINK MY BIGGER PICTURE IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN HIS BIGGER PICTURE. >> Steve: FOR SURE. >> Cathy: WE PLAN -- A COLLEAGUE RECENTLY SAID TO ME AND IT WAS PERFECTLY EXPLAINED, WE PLAN IN 13-YEAR CYCLES SO WE'RE ALREADY PLANNING FOR THAT CHILD THAT'S ENTERED IN OUR SCHOOL IN JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN, WE'RE ALREADY PLANNING FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING FOR THEM IN 13 YEARS. SO SOMETIMES, AND I'LL USE THE TORONTO

EXPERIENCE BECAUSE WE ARE IN TORONTO. THE MINISTER'S RIGHT. THE TORONTO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD HAS PROPERTY THAT THEY'VE LEASED OUT TO SOMEBODY ELSE BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THEY DON'T NEED IT. BUT THEY KNOW THAT IN 10, 15 YEARS, THEY'RE GOING TO NEED IT. AND SO IF WE SELL IT OR WE'RE NOT USING IT, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO KEEP IT SO WE CAN USE IT LATER, WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO BUY MORE PROPERTY? WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO PUT A SCHOOL WHEN WE NEED IT? THE EXPERIENCE ACROSS ONTARIO IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT BUT AG

AIN THE SAME. WE MAY NOT HAVE AN EMPTY SCHOOL SITTING THERE BUT THERE ARE SCHOOL BOARDS IN THIS PROVINCE THAT MIGHT HAVE A HUNK OF LAND AND THEY'RE HANGING ONTO IT BECAUSE THEY SEE THE GROWTH COMING AND THEY KNOW THAT IN 10 OR 12 OR 15 YEARS, WE'RE GOING TO NEED THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY. >> Steve: SO THIS IS SHORT SIGHTED ON THE MINISTER'S VIEW? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, MIKE? >> Mike: WHAT I WOULD BE SUGGESTING, I THINK IF THE MINISTER IS TALKING ABOUT GIVING BOARDS THE EXPANDED ABILITY TO DO WHAT

MY COLLEAGUE IS SAYING AROUND BEING ABLE TO LEASE SPACES OUT TO OTHERS UNTIL WE NEED IT, THAT'S NOT A BAD LOOK. WHERE, IF THE MINISTER, HOWEVER, IS GOING IN THE DIRECTION OF SHORT-TERM GAIN IN TERMS OF SAYING, HERE'S WHERE YOU CAN FIND SOME MONEY AND THEN WE DON'T HAVE TO RAISE PROVINCIAL TAXES TO GIVE YOU MONEY THAT YOU CAN JUST BE SELLING THE REAL ESTATE. BUT IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD. WHEN I TALK ABOUT STUDENT LEARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT IS THAT IT TIES INTO THAT IN THE SENSE THAT, IN WATERLOO R

EGION ALONE -- AND THE MINISTER WOULD HAVE THE NUMBERS BETTER THAN I WOULD -- BUT I'M HEARING 4,000 ELEMENTARY-AGED STUDENTS ARE IN THE EQUIVALENT OF PODS. THAT'S ROUGHLY $48 MILLION THAT'S NOT GOING INTO PUBLIC EDUCATION. >> Steve: WHEN YOU SAY PODS, DO YOU MEAN PORTABLES? WHAT DO YOU MEAN? >> Mike: THE EQUIVALENT TO HOME SCHOOLING. IT'S PARENTS GETTING TOGETHER, HAVING SCHOOLS IN CHURCH BASEMENTS. >> Steve: GOTCHA. >> Mike: BECAUSE THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM IS NOT DELIVERING SOMETHING THAT T

HEY WANT. SO THEY'RE VOTING WITH THEIR FEET. WE HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO ADDRESS THAT. >> Steve: GOTCHA. OKAY. DO YOU WANT TO COME IN ON THAT? >> Cathy: YEAH. I WOULD JUST SAY THAT'S NOT THE NUMBER WE'RE HEARING. BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THAT NUMBER DID INCREASE AFTER PANDEMIC. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PARENTS STILL IN THIS PROVINCE WHO ARE ANXIOUS AND NERVOUS ABOUT SENDING THEIR CHILDREN BACK TO SCHOOL, NOT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF EDUCATION OR THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION, BUT THEY'RE STILL HAVING CONCERNS ABOU

T COVID. AND SO WE WOULD PUSH BACK ON THAT BY JUST SAYING THAT IT ISN'T A HOME SCHOOLING FOR EDUCATION REASONS VERSUS PUBLIC SCHOOLS, IT'S ABOUT FAMILIES FEELING PHYSICALLY SAFE AS FAR AS COVID CONCERNS. AND I DON'T -- AGAIN, I'M GOING TO SAY I'M NOT SURE THAT'S NOT QUITE WHAT WE'VE HEARD NUMBERS-WISE. WE DO KNOW IT HAPPENS, WE DO KNOW IT HAPPENS. SO THE ANSWER IS NOT FULL-SCALE, CHANGE EVERYTHING. THE ANSWER IS: HELP US HELP THOSE PEOPLE FEEL SAFE. >> Steve: LET ME CIRCLE BACK THOUGH TO THE TOP

OF OUR CONVERSATION WHERE YOU SEEMED TO BE SAYING AT THE BEGINNING, CATHY, I'M DELIGHTED THAT THE MINISTER HAS TALKED ABOUT THIS BACK TO BASICS READING, WRITING, ARITHMETIC. WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT. WE'RE FOCUSED ON STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT ALREADY AS IT IS. YOUR POSITION, MIKE, IS MORE ALONG THE LINES IS, I'M GLAD HE'S DIPPED HIS OAR IN THE WATER BECAUSE WE'RE NOT SURE THIS IS BEING DONE AS WELL AS IT SHOULD BE DONE. AM I SEEING A POINT OF DEPARTURE BETWEEN YOU TWO? >> Cathy: I THINK LANGUAGE MATTERS

. LANGUAGE MATTERS. I THINK THE CONCERN FOR US IS WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT GOING BACK TO BASICS, WHAT PEOPLE HEAR IS READING, WRITING, AND ARITHMETIC. I'M OF AN AGE THAT THAT'S WHAT WE USED TO SAY, READING, WRITING, AND ARITHMETIC. LIFE IS FAR MORE COMPLEX NOW, THAT OUR KIDS NEED MUCH MORE THAN READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC. IN FACT, ON THE SUBWAY IN TORONTO THIS MORNING, I WAS IN THE SUBWAY AND THESE YOUNG PEOPLE GOT ON THE SUBWAY AND ONE YOUNG ONE FELLA SAT DOWN AND IMMEDIATELY FELL ASLEEP. AND I

THOUGHT, YOU KNOW -- THIS IS WHERE MY BRAIN GOES. I THINK IS HE JUST A 17-YEAR-OLD TEENAGE BOY WHO IS TIRED ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE THEY ARE, OR DID HE HAVE TO WORK LAST NIGHT BECAUSE HE HELPS KEEP HIS FAMILY IN FOOD? OR PERHAPS ARE THEY HOMELESS? AND GOING BACK TO READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS LIKE THAT. WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE REAL CHALLENGES IN OUR SCHOOLS RIGHT NOW WITH MENTAL HEALTH, THERE ARE CHALLENGES IN OUR SCHOOLS IN THIS PROVINCE WITH POVERTY, AND I CAN CONTINUE

TO SAY THAT IF A CHILD OR A STUDENT IS COMING TO SCHOOL IN THE MORNING AND THEIR BIG WORRY IS, "WHERE AM I GOING TO SLEEP TONIGHT?" ALL THE READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC IN THE WORLD DOESN'T HELP THAT KID SUCCEED. SO WE NEED TO EXPAND OUR FOCUS ON NOT JUST THE BASICS. OUR KIDS DON'T LIVE IN A BASIC WORLD. >> Steve: MIKE? >> Mike: AND I DO BELIEVE THE BASICS ARE VERY IMPORTANT. WHEN WE HAVE, ESPECIALLY, LIKE SAY, IN MY DISTRICT, I CAN SPEAK ABOUT WATERLOO REGION DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD. WHEN WE

HAVE A SCHOOL, FOR EXAMPLE, AND I WILL JUST GIVE ONE EXAMPLE. WE HAVE A SCHOOL WHERE THE STUDENT POPULATION, THE PROVINCIAL STANDARD FOR READING, ONLY 22% OF THE KIDS ARE MEETING IT. FOR MATH IT'S LIKE 39%. WRITING, 32%. WE HAVE A PROBLEM. THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT WE WILL BE COMPETING WITH DIDN'T REALLY CARE MUCH WHETHER IT'S GREEN SHIRT DAY OR JAMAICAN JERK CHICKEN DAY, WHAT THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IS WHAT ARE THE DELIVERABLES? HOW CAN WE IMPROVE STUDENT LEARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT TO PREPARE TH

EM FOR THE REAL WORLD. >> Steve: BUT CAN YOU IMPROVE STUDENT LEARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT IF KIDS ARE COMING TO SCHOOL HUNGRY, TIRED, NERVOUS? >> Mike: YOU KNOW WHAT? AND I THINK THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED. IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM? I'M NOT SO SURE. I THINK WE SHOULD FOCUS ON WHAT OUR PRIORITIES ARE, AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING FOR A MOMENT THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE COMMUNICATING TO THE MINISTRY OR TO DIFFERENT LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT THE ISSUES AROUND HUNGER AND

HOMELESSNESS. BY NO MEANS. IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER CHALLENGES THAT BOARDS FACE WITH CONCERNS AROUND LGBTQ RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE. BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT WENT ON IN HALTON REGION, THAT'S MAKING A MOCKERY OF OUR LGBTQ FRIENDS AND NEIGHBOURS. >> Steve: YOU ARE REFERRING TO ... >> Mike: THE HALTON DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD -- >> Steve: THE TEACHER WHO SHOWED UP WEARING -- I DON'T KNOW. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO -- [Speaking simultaneously] >> Mike: THAT IS WHAT I'M REFERRING TO. THOSE AR

E SIDE SHOWS AND IT DISTRACTS FROM WHAT THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF BOARDS OF EDUCATION SHOULD BE, AND THAT IS STUDENT LEARNING AND ACHIEVEMENT. >> Steve: I SHOULD ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, CATHY. I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. LIFE'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THE THREE Rs THESE DAYS. THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT. AND THE FACT DOES SEEM TO BE THAT WE'RE ASKING SCHOOL BOARDS AND SCHOOLS ALL ACROSS THE PROVINCE TO DO EVERYTHING THESE DAYS, NOT JUST READING, WRITING, AND ARITHMETIC, BUT SOLVE HUNGER, SOLVE POVERTY

, DO MENTAL HEALTH CRISES, DO CIVICS, DO EVERYTHING. YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING SO YOU HAVE TO PRIORITIZE, PRESUME POLICY. WHAT DO YOU PRIORITIZE? >> Cathy: WE PRIORITIZE OUR STUDENTS. >> Steve: BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> Cathy: I WILL SAY I BELIEVE THAT. THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE EDUCATION ACT SAYS THAT OUR JOB IS STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT AND WELL-BEING. THE WELL-BEING PART IS ALREADY IN THE EDUCATION ACT. SO THIS IS WHAT WE DO. WHAT DO WE PRIORITIZE? WHAT DO WE PRIORITIZE? WE PRIORITIZE WHATEVER THAT

STUDENT NEEDS. I KNOW THAT PEOPLE SAY, YOU KNOW, MY COLLEAGUE USES THE EXAMPLE OF BEING ABLE TO FOCUS AND YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT JERK CHICKEN DAY -- >> Steve: NOT THAT HE DOESN'T CARE, HE DOESN'T SEE THAT AS A PRIORITY. >> Cathy: HE DOESN'T SEE THAT AS A PRIORITY. BUT IF YOU ARE A CHILD WHO DOESN'T SEE THEMSELVES REFLECTED IN THAT SCHOOL AT ALL AND YOU COME TO SCHOOL AND YOU SAY, "NOBODY IN THIS SCHOOL CARES WHO I AM, WHERE I COME FROM, WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS," AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THAT DAY IS ABOU

T JAMAICAN HERITAGE -- THAT MIGHT MATTER TO THAT CHILD AND THAT MIGHT BE THE THING THAT MAKES THAT CHILD FEEL WELCOME AND MIGHT HELP THEM LEARN BETTER. IT IS COMPLEX. IT IS SO COMPLEX. AND IT IS SO MUCH MORE THAN IT USED TO BE. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. BUT WE DO PRIORITIZE. WE NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT THE STUDENTS NEED TO BE EDUCATED SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE THE CHOICES THEY WANT TO MAKE AFTER THEY LEAVE OUR SYSTEM, AND DESPITE -- AND I ACTUALLY DID HEAR THE MINISTER SAY THAT WE'VE

BEEN DOING A GOOD JOB. WE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB. WE -- EVERY BOARD MEETING, AND I KNOW IT'S THE SAME AT WATERLOO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD, WE ARE THERE FOCUSING ON HOW TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR KIDS. >> Steve: ONE OF THE PROVISIONS OF THIS BILL DOES CALL FOR THE HIRING OF MORE TEACHERS IN ORDER TO DO WHAT TEACHERS DO. CATHY, I WONDER IF YOU THINK THE NUMBERS IN THERE ARE ADEQUATE TO THE TASK? >> Cathy: WE ALREADY HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A TEACHER SHORTAGE. WE ALREADY HAD STRUGGLING WITH MAKING SURE TH

ERE'S TEACHERS IN FRONT OF EVERY CLASSROOM EVERY DAY, PARTICULARLY IN FRENCH LANGUAGE, MORE SO FROM OUR FRENCH LANGUAGE BOARD COLLEAGUES BUT EVEN IN OUR OWN SCHOOLS WHERE THERE'S FRENCH IMMERSION. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE ISSUES FINDING TECH TEACHERS. TEACHERS WHO ARE QUALIFIED TO ALSO TEACH WELDING, FOR INSTANCE. IT'S A LOFTY GOAL AND WE'LL NEVER SAY NO TO MORE SUPPORT. DON'T MISUNDERSTAND THAT. I'M JUST NOT SURE WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO COME FROM. THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME MORE WORK ON THE OTHER END TO

GET PEOPLE INTERESTED IN COMING TO JOIN US AS TEACHERS. WE WILL NEVER SAY NO TO HAVING MORE TEACHERS IN CLASSROOMS OR HAVING THOSE KINDS OF SUPPORTS IN OUR SCHOOLS TO SUPPORT THESE KIDS. >> Steve: MIKE, I WANT TO PUT TO YOU, IF I CAN, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I PUT TO THE MINISTER, WHICH IS THIS GOVERNMENT APPEARS TO HAVE -- I'M NOT JUDGING IT, I'M JUST POINTING IT OUT -- APPEARS TO HAVE A REAL FOCUS ON TRAINING, ON MAKING SURE THAT THE EDUCATION KIDS GET EVENTUALLY LEADS TO SOME KIND OF CAREER, AS

OPPOSED TO OTHER APPROACHES WHICH HAVE BEEN TAKEN IN THE PAST WHICH SPEAK TO THE WHOLE CHILD, WHICH SPEAK TO CREATING CRITICALLY THINKING CITIZENS AS OPPOSED TO TRAINING PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY FOR JOBS. DO YOU HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT THAT? >> Mike: I THINK, AGAIN, IT IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION BECAUSE I THINK WHAT HAS TAKEN HOLD IN EDUCATION IN ONTARIO OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS IS THAT WE SHOULD JUST BE TRAINING KIDS TO GET TO COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY AND IGNORING THE TRADES. AND THAT'S WHY I

WAS -- I FELT SO REFRESHED AND FELT SO GOOD WHEN I SAW THE MINISTER ACTUALLY MEETING WITH THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION FROM GERMANY, I THINK BADEN STATE IN GERMANY. I'VE VISITED GERMANY, I'VE SEEN THEIR EDUCATION SYSTEM, AND I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD BE MODELLING HERE IN ONTARIO. WE WANT TO HAVE GOOD CITIZENS THAT CAN THINK CRITICALLY, AND I THINK FOR THE MOST PART IN SOME OF OUR SCHOOLS THAT IS BEING DONE IN SOME OF OUR SCHOOLS. IT'S NOT HAPPENING. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE MINISTER

IS FOCUSING ON. WE NEED TO HAVE -- IT'S BEEN SAID THAT ANYTHING THAT GETS MEASURED GETS DONE. SO THAT'S WHY I STRONGLY SUPPORT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BOARD IMPROVEMENT PLANS AND HOW THAT'S GOING TO BE TIGHTENED UP WITH RESPECT TO THE EQAO SCORES, MATCHING IT, AND HOLDING DIRECTORS OF EDUCATION ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE OUTCOMES. BECAUSE ONCE DIRECTORS ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, BOARDS WILL THEN DO THEIR JOBS AND NOT BE DISTRACTED BY THE SIDE SHOWS AS I MENTIONED THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN HALTON REGION AND USING

CODES OF CONDUCT TO SHUT DOWN LEGITIMATE DEBATES. THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT BILL 98 IS DEALING WITH, OR INTENDS TO DEAL WITH, AND I FIND IT REFRESHING. >> Steve: WHAT ABOUT YOUR POWER? I MEAN SOME WILL ARGUE THIS IS A BIT OF A POWER GRAB BY THE PROVINCE INTO LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY THAT YOU AS A TRUSTEE AND THAT BOARDS AS CONSTITUTIONALLY RECOGNIZED ENTITIES IN THIS PROVINCE AND COUNTRY, OUGHT TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER? WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? >> Mike: WELL, SCHOOL BOARDS, AS A FORM OF LOCAL GOVERNME

NT, ARE CREATURES OF THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT. THAT'S ONE. NUMBER TWO, THE OTHER PART OF IT IS THAT I THINK THE MINISTER MORE THAN LIKELY IS RESPONDING TO THE CONCERNS THAT HE'S CERTAINLY HEARING FROM ACROSS THE PROVINCE. PARENTS ARE UPSET. I'VE NEVER SEEN PARENTS SO UPSET, WHERE SECURITY AND POLICE ARE BEING CALLED TO BOARD MEETINGS. SIMPLY PARENTS ARE THERE ASKING LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS AND THEY'RE MET WITH VEXATIOUS CHALLENGES AND BOARD GETS DISTRACTED IN DEALING WITH THOSE CHALLENGES. OPERATI

ONAL DECISIONS, AS THEY CALL IT. THAT ARE REALLY POLITICAL DECISIONS IN DISGUISE AND THEY ARE DISTRACTED AND WE CANNOT HOLD -- WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME THEN TO HOLD DIRECTORS OF EDUCATION ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE OUTCOMES. >> Steve: CATHY, LET ME GIVE YOU THE LAST MINUTE ON THAT. WHETHER YOU SEE THIS AT ALL AS KIND OF A POWER GRAB ON WHAT SHOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY? >> Cathy: SCHOOL BOARD TRUSTEES, YOU KNOW THIS, ARE THE LONGEST FORM OF ELECTED GOVERNMENT IN ONTARIO AND IN FACT IN CANADA. AND MANY Y

EARS AGO PEOPLE THOUGHT SCHOOL BOARDS AND LOCAL DECISION-MAKING WAS IMPORTANT. I WOULD DISAGREE WITH MY COLLEAGUE, RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH HIM ON SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HE HAS SAID. WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE MINORITY RIGHTS. AND WHEN PARENTS COME IN AND ARE ASKING US TO DO THINGS THAT PERHAPS CONTRAVENE THINGS LIKE THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS CODE, WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RESPECT AND SUPPORT AND KEEP SAFE OUR MINORITY STUDENTS, WHETHER THAT BE BECAUSE OF RACE OR CULTURE OR LGBTQ OR ANY O

F THOSE THINGS. WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE SAFETY OF THOSE STUDENTS. AND, YES, OUR SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS HAVE BECOME CONTENTIOUS BECAUSE WE HAVE AN ISSUE IN THIS SOCIETY RIGHT NOW WHERE WE'RE STRUGGLING TO FIND OUR PLACE ABOUT EQUITY. AND WE WILL NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THAT. STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. BUT IF WE LOSE SIGHT OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DIFFERENCES OF OUR KIDS, WE WILL LOSE SIGHT OF STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT. >> Steve: I WANT TO THANK BOTH OF YOU FOR COMING IN TO TVO TONIGHT AND SHA

RING YOUR VIEWS. CATHY ABRAHAM FROM THE ONTARIO PUBLIC SCHOOL BOARDS ASSOCIATION; MIKE RAMSAY, A TRUSTEE AT WATERLOO REGION DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD. I KNOW YOU BOTH DROVE A LONG WAY TO GET HERE, SO WE'RE TRULY GRATEFUL FOR THE EFFORT. >> Cathy: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> Mike: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US. [ ♪ ] >> Steve: WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT TWO OF THE MOST IMPORTANT VALUES IN PUBLIC EDUCATION. WE WANT TO REWARD STUDENTS WHO WORK HARD IN THEIR SPARE TIME TO DEVELOP OTHER SKILLS SUCH AS

PLAYING A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, JOINING THE CHOIR, OR BECOMING GOOD DANCERS. BUT WE ALSO WANT TO ENSURE THAT ALL KIDS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR POSTAL CODE, GET A CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE THOSE ENRICHING THINGS TOO. CAN THAT BE DONE? CAN WE HAVE BOTH MERIT AND EQUITY IN PUBLIC EDUCATION? LET'S ASK: RACHEL CHERNOS LIN, SHE IS THE CHAIR OF THE TORONTO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD AND THE TRUSTEE FOR WARD 11 DON VALLEY WEST; RICHARD BILKSZTO IS A FORMER SECONDARY SCHOOL PRINCIPAL IN THE SAME BOARD; AND TASHA KHEIRID

DIN IS AN AUTHOR, COMMENTATOR, AND FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DISCUSSION, A PARENT WITH A DAUGHTER, WHO IN THE FALL WILL ENTER THE TORONTO SCHOOL SYSTEM. GREAT TO HAVE ALL THREE OF YOU HERE TONIGHT FOR OUR DISCUSSION. TASHA, I'M GOING TO GO TO YOU FIRST BECAUSE WE ARE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION TONIGHT IN PART BECAUSE, IN ITS WISDOM, THE TORONTO SCHOOL BOARD IN AN EFFORT TO BE MORE EQUITABLE TO MORE STUDENTS DECIDED TO BRING IN A BIT OF A NEW SYSTEM AS IT RELATES TO SPECIALIZED PROGRAMS. WHAT DID THEY

BRING IN? >> Tasha: SO THE TDSB HAS A NUMBER OF SPECIALIZED SCHOOLS RANGING FROM, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE ARTS TO SCIENCES TO IB TO WHAT THEY CALL -- >> Steve: INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE. >> Tasha: EXACTLY. IB. THESE PROGRAMS USUALLY HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY ATTAINED BY MEANS OF A MERIT SYSTEM. SO STUDENTS WOULD HAVE TO EITHER SUBMIT A PORTFOLIO OF WORK FOR AN ARTS SCHOOL OR DO AN AUDITION. FOR A SCIENCE SCHOOL, THEY MAY HAVE TO TAKE TESTS OR SHOW APTITUDE IN OTHER WAYS, THROUGH THEIR MARKS. SO BASI

CALLY THE IDEA WAS THAT KIDS HAD TO STRIVE TO ATTAIN THESE SCHOOLS. AND THEY COULD APPLY TO WHICHEVER SCHOOLS THEY WOULD CHOOSE. THIS YEAR THE SYSTEM CHANGED TO BE A LOTTERY. THE REASON THE TDSB DID THAT IS BECAUSE THEY LOOKED AT THE MAKEUP OF THE SCHOOLS AND FOUND THAT THE COMPOSITION DID NOT REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF THE TORONTO SCHOOL SYSTEM AS A WHOLE. AND THE RESULT WAS THAT THEY SAID, WELL, WE'VE GOT TO FIX THIS. AND THE WAY OF FIXING IT WAS TO CREATE A LOTTERY AND RESERVING 20% OF THE SPOT

S FOR KIDS WHO WERE CONSIDERED FROM UNDERREPRESENTED GROUPS, AND THEN THEY'RE PUTTING EVERYONE IN A POT WHERE BASICALLY IT WAS AT RANDOM. YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO NECESSARILY SHOW AN APTITUDE, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING REALLY EXCEPT FOR SAY THAT YOU WERE INTERESTED IN ATTENDING THESE SCHOOLS TO GET A SEAT. AND THAT'S HOW THEY DID IT THIS YEAR. >> Steve: RICHARD, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW OF THE LOTTERY SYSTEM? >> Richard: WELL, STEVE, I'M ACTUALLY VERY CONCERNED THAT WE MOVED FROM A MERIT BASED SYSTEM TO

A LOTTERY BASED SYSTEM. THE REALITY IS THERE ARE MANY STUDENTS, AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE ART SCHOOLS, BUT IF WE LOOK AT THE OTHER SCHOOLS, THE ACADEMIC PROGRAMS, INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE, THERE ARE MANY, MANY STUDENTS IN THOSE PROGRAMS FROM OTHER COMMUNITIES, FROM PARENTS AND FAMILIES WITH A LOWER INCOME LEVEL, PARENTS WITH A LOWER EDUCATIONAL LEVEL AS WELL. SO IN SOME WAYS, THOSE SCHOOLS ARE ACTUALLY EQUITY -- EXAMPLES OF EQUITY IN THE TDSB THAT ARE ACTUALLY WORKING AND STRIVING. SO I THINK

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE. SO WHAT THE TDSB ACTUALLY DID IS WENT FROM MERIT-BASED SYSTEM TO A LOTTERY-BASED SYSTEM. RATHER THAN MAKING THE SYSTEM MORE FAIR, STEVE, THE SYSTEM IS NOW UNFAIR. >> Steve: WHY IS IT LESS FAIR NOW? >> Richard: IT'S LESS FAIR NOW BECAUSE OF A COUPLE OF REASONS AND I THINK THIS IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW. IN THE PAST, STUDENTS, AS TASHA SAID, HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEMONSTRATE AN ABILITY, DEMONSTRATE A PASSION, DEMONSTRATE AN INTEREST. NOW IT'S ALL AB

OUT THE LUCK OF THE DRAW. YOU'RE ACTUALLY THROWN IN A RING, AND IF YOUR NUMBER COMES UP, YOUR NAME COMES UP, YOU'RE LUCKY AND YOU GET INTO THAT PROGRAM. WHAT'S VERY CONCERNING AS WELL, STEVE, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR VIEWERS TO UNDERSTAND, IF I COME OR MY CHILD IS IN A WEALTHY FAMILY, THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL. IF THERE IS A STUDENT WHOSE PARENT CAN'T AFFORD A PRIVATE SCHOOL SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE LUCK OF THE DRAW, THEY'RE GOING TO BE OUT OF LUCK. AND THAT'S NOT

FAIR. THAT'S NOT EQUITABLE. AND THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO NOTE AND I HOPE WE HAVE A CHANCE TO DISCUSS THIS LATER ON, STEVE, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS LOTTERY SYSTEM WILL ACTUALLY DESTROY THE SPECIALIZED PROGRAMS IN THE TORONTO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD. >> Steve: OKAY. MORE TO COME ON THAT. MADAM CHAIR, AREN'T YOU GLAD WE INVITED YOU HERE TONIGHT? >> Rachel: I AM. IT'S GREAT TO HAVE DISCUSSIONS TO TOPICS OF INTEREST TO STUDENTS, FAMILY, STAFF -- >> Steve: SO WHAT WAS THE

THINKING BEHIND THE LOTTERY? >> Rachel: THE THINKING BEHIND THE LOTTERY -- FIRST I WANT TO EXPLAIN WE ONLY GO TO A LOTTERY WHEN THE NUMBER OF APPLICANTS EXCEEDS SEATS. AND THAT HASN'T ACTUALLY ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE IN ALL OF OUR SPECIALIZED PROGRAMS. IT'S ONLY WHEN WE HAVE MORE DEMAND THAN WE HAVE SPOTS, THEN WE GO TO A LOTTERY, AND WE DON'T ALWAYS NEED TO IN EVERY PROGRAM. THAT'S THE FIRST THING TO NOTE. BUT THE DECISION WAS MADE BASED ON NOT JUST DATA THAT WE HAD ABOUT WHO WAS COMING INTO OUR P

ROGRAMS BUT ALSO ON SIGNIFICANT FEEDBACK THAT WE HAD HAD OVER THE YEARS FROM FAMILIES AND FROM STUDENTS BECAUSE WE DID DO A FAIRLY LARGE CONSULTATION WHEN WE STARTED REVIEWING OUR POLICY, AND OF COURSE WE HAVE TO REVIEW ALL OF OUR POLICIES EVERY COUPLE OF YEARS. WE LOOK AT EACH ONE AND WE HAVE A CONSTANT ROTATION. BUT WE HAD DECIDED TO CREATE A NEW SPECIALIZED CENTRAL STUDENT INTEREST PROGRAM POLICY. AND SO WE SOLICITED FEEDBACK FROM FAMILIES ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES, AND WHAT WE LEARNED WAS THAT

A LOT OF FAMILIES FELT THAT THESE PROGRAMS WEREN'T FOR THEM. THERE WERE BARRIERS IN PLACE PREVENTING THEM FROM APPLYING IN THE FIRST PLACE OR PREVENTING THEM FROM GETTING IN. >> Steve: WHAT WERE THE BARRIERS? >> Rachel: THEY WERE THINGS LIKE WE HAD COSTS TO WRITE EXAMS OR TO APPLY. >> Steve: AND THEY COULDN'T AFFORD THEM. >> Rachel: AND THEY COULDN'T AFFORD THEM. SOMETIMES KIDS COULDN'T COME ON THE SATURDAY THAT THEY WERE HOSTING THE EXAM OR THE EVENING THEY WERE DOING THE AUDITION BECAUSE MANY

OF OUR STUDENTS -- AND WE ARE IN A VERY LARGE URBAN BOARD, WE HAVE 240,000 STUDENTS -- MANY OF THEM HAVE PART-TIME JOBS, THEY'RE HELPING SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES. YOU KNOW, WE KNOW FOOD INSECURITY HAS BEEN ON THE RISE. THESE ARE REALLY SIGNIFICANT PIECES. ALSO, THE KIND OF THINGS THAT WE WERE ASKING THEM TO DO WERE NOT NECESSARILY THINGS THAT THEY HAD EXPERIENCE WITH OR THE TYPE OF -- THE TYPE OF PROGRAM THAT THEY NECESSARILY HAD AUDITION EXPERIENCE WITH OR A PORTFOLIO. THEY HADN'T BEEN BUILDING

THAT PORTFOLIO FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS BECAUSE MAYBE THEY HADN'T HAD ACCESS TO ALL OF THAT OUTSIDE PROGRAMMING. >> Steve: SO WHY WAS THE LOTTERY THOUGHT TO BE THE BEST WAY TO APPROACH THIS ISSUE OF TRYING TO BE MORE EQUITABLE? >> Rachel: SO THE IDEA BEHIND IT WAS, IF STUDENTS HAD AN INTEREST, LET'S NURTURE THAT. IF THEY HAD A PASSION, LET'S NURTURE THAT. BECAUSE PART OF PUBLIC EDUCATION, OUR VALUE IN PUBLIC EDUCATION, IS THAT IF STUDENTS ARE GIVEN THE RESOURCES AND THE HIGH EXPECTATIONS, W

E DO BELIEVE THEY WILL RISE TO THOSE. AND SO IF STUDENTS DISPLAY -- LIKE, I HAVE THREE KIDS. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM APPLIED TO AN ARTS PROGRAM OR A STEM PROGRAM BECAUSE IT WASN'T SOMETHING THEY WERE PASSIONATE ABOUT. BUT IF KIDS ARE REALLY INTERESTED, THEY WILL APPLY IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, IF GIVEN THE IDEA THAT THAT APPLICATION DOESN'T HAVE BARRIERS IN FRONT OF IT. AND WE ACTUALLY KNOW FROM THE DATA THAT'S COME OUT FROM THE APPLICATIONS THIS YEAR, WE HAD 3,000, ROUGHLY 3,000 MORE APPLICATI

ONS. WE HAVE STUDENTS COMING FROM SCHOOLS THAT THEY HAVEN'T COME FROM BEFORE. WE HAVE MANY MORE STUDENTS FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE CITY. AND THE OTHER BARRIER THAT WE HAD WAS GEOGRAPHY. YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS ARE ONLY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CITY AND THE COST OF TTC AND THE TIME THAT THAT WOULD TAKE -- THAT'S ANOTHER BARRIER -- >> Steve: TO BE FAIR HERE, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT YOUR KIDS, SO I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR KID NOW. NOW, YOUR DAUGHTER, SHE'S IN THE FALL GOING TO JOIN THE TORONTO

DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD SOMEWHERE. >> Tasha: CORRECT. >> Steve: SHE TRIED TO GET INTO SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS. WHAT WAS THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU HAD? >> Tasha: THE EXPERIENCE WAS, MY DAUGHTER HAS BEEN AN ARTIST SINCE SHE WAS ABLE TO HOLD A PENCIL. SHE IS NOW 13 AND SHE HAD ALWAYS INTENDED TO GO TO AN ART HIVE. THAT WAS HER GOAL. SO SHE APPLIED IN THE SYSTEM THIS YEAR. SHE WAS VERY DISMAYED ABOUT THE LOTTERY AND SHE THOUGHT THIS WAS RIGHT AWAY AN UNFAIR WAY OF DOING THIS. SHE HAD BEEN NOT BUILDING A

PORTFOLIO OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL WITH ANY OTHER ASSISTANCE, BUT ON HER OWN, SHE HAD BEEN WORKING AND STARTED AN INSTAGRAM ART ACCOUNT AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT SHE WANTED TO THEN BE ABLE TO SHOWCASE AND WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED. SO SHE APPLIED TO ROSEDALE, WE DID ALL THE HOOPS. >> Steve: ROSEDALE SCHOOL OF THE ARTS. >> Tasha: ROSEDALE SCHOOL OF THE ARTS, CORRECT. WE WERE NUMBER 82 ON THE WAIT LIST. HER FRIEND, HER BEST FRIEND, WAS 182 ON THE WAIT LIST. SO CLEARLY THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO APPLI

ED. WE SUBSEQUENTLY FOUND OUT THAT THERE WERE STUDENTS WE KNEW WHO HAD ZERO INTEREST IN THE ARTS. NONE. THEY APPLIED BECAUSE ROSEDALE HAS A GOOD REPUTATION. AND THEY GOT IN. OTHER KIDS APPLIED BECAUSE IT WAS NEAR WHERE THEY LIVED, AND THEY GOT IN. SO MY DAUGHTER WAS VERY UPSET ABOUT THIS AND SHE WAS VERY UPSET THAT HER FRIEND ALSO, WHO HAILS FROM A MINORITY BACKGROUND, DIDN'T GET IN BECAUSE HER MINORITY IS NOT CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THE ONES THAT'S UNDERREPRESENTED BUT SHE IS GOING TO FACE DISC

RIMINATION -- >> Steve: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> Tara: BECAUSE THERE'S A NUMBER THAT WERE RESERVED, LIKE I SAID, 20% FOR STUDENTS WHO ARE UNDERREPRESENTED IN THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS. BUT HER FRIEND IS OF A DIFFERENT ETHNICITY THAT IS NOT ON THE LIST. >> Steve: HER FRIEND IS ... >> Tasha: SHE IS OF ASIAN BACKGROUND, SHE WAS ADOPTED FROM CHINA. >> Steve: AND THAT'S NOT CONSIDERED UNDERREPRESENTED. >> Tasha: BUT SHE FACES DISCRIMINATION. AND YET, IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, SHE DOESN'T COUNT. SO THERE WER

E ALL THESE FACTORS. AND THEN FINALLY SHE DID SOMEHOW, AFTER TWO ROUNDS OF REVISIONS BECAUSE KIDS, YOU KNOW, SOME MIGHT CHOOSE A DIFFERENT SCHOOL AND THEY DROP OFF, THE WAIT LIST GETS SHORTER. WE WERE SHOCKED TO GET ACCEPTANCE. WE'RE LIKE, WOW, OKAY. >> Steve: SO YOUR DAUGHTER GOT IN. >> Tasha: SHE GOT IN. BUT HERE'S THE THING. PEOPLE ASK, WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL? GOING TO ROSEDALE HEIGHTS SCHOOL OF THE ARTS? OH, THAT'S GREAT. YOU KNOW WHAT HER RESPONSE IS, STEVE? "ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT.

IT'S A LOTTERY. IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING." THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID. SO MY KID, WHO HAS BEEN LOOKING FORWARD, WANTING TO DO THIS FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS NOT, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD SAY, YEAH, SHE IS PRIVILEGED IN SOME WAYS, BUT SHE IS ALSO NEURODIVERGENT. SHE IS NOT FULLY PRIVILEGED, RIGHT? SHE HAS HAD A LOT OF BARRIERS IN HER LIFE. >> Steve: WHAT ABOUT HER FRIEND? DID HER FRIEND GET IN? >> Tasha: HER FRIEND IS GOING TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL NOW BECAUSE SHE GOT A SCHOLARSHIP. HER FAMILY IS NOT RICH EIT

HER. >> Steve: AT 182, SHE KNEW SHE WASN'T GOING TO GET IN. >> Tasha: SO SHE PURSUED OTHER THINGS. ALL OF US, BECAUSE IT WAS A LOTTERY, WE DIDN'T PUT ALL OUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET. WE WERE LOOKING AT OTHER OPTIONS. HER FRIEND IS NOW GOING TO BE A PRIVATE SCHOOL. SHE IS GOING TO BE GONE FROM THE PUBLIC SYSTEM. THIS IS A VERY TALENTED, VERY SMART GIRL. THE WHOLE POINT I THINK WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS RECONCILE EQUITY AND MERIT. I THINK THERE'S A WAY TO DO IT BUT THE LOTTERY IS NOT THE WAY. >> Steve: HOL

D OFF ON THAT FOR A SECOND. WHAT DO YOU INFER FROM TASHA'S EXAMPLE THERE THAT TELLS A BIGGER STORY, IN YOUR VIEW? >> Richard: A COUPLE OF THINGS, STEVE. THE ONE THING I JUST WANTED TO MENTION IS SOMETHING THAT THE CHAIR MENTIONED. THERE ACTUALLY HAS NOT BEEN MEANINGFUL CONSULTATION ON THE LOTTERY SYSTEM. I THINK THAT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE PREVIOUS BOARD IN SEPTEMBER PUT FORWARD A MOTION ASKING, SAY, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, LET'S PAUSE THIS. LET'S HAVE SOME MEANINGF

UL CONSULTATION ON LOTTERY AND LET'S GET MORE DATA BEFORE WE MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. WHAT I COULD SAY, STEVE, IS THIS, IS THAT THESE SCHOOLS -- AND I'VE WORKED IN THREE OF THEM -- THEY'RE HUGE SUCCESS STORIES. THESE ARE JEWELS IN THE CROWN OF THE TDSB AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE DESTROYED. THESE ARE HUBS OF EXCELLENCE. STUDENTS WITH PASSION, INTEREST, APTITUDE GATHER IN THESE PLACES. SO SIMPLY CHECKING OFF A BOX, NOW IT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO DO, DOESN'T SHOW ANY IN

TEREST, DOESN'T SHOW ANY PASSION, DOESN'T SHOW ANY ABILITY AT ALL. WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE IN THE ACADEMIC PROGRAM, STEVE, IS A MISMATCH. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE STUDENTS WITHOUT THE ABILITY IN THESE VERY RIGOROUS ACADEMIC PROGRAMS, SOME OF THEM WITH INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO IT. SO JUST TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO PUT A STUDENT IN THERE AND THEY'RE GOING TO FLOURISH, I THINK THAT'S REALLY WISHFUL THINKING AND IT'S NOT BEING HONEST WITH THE PEOPLE OF TORONTO AND THE

PEOPLE OF TORONTO REALLY DESERVE BETTER THAN THAT. >> Steve: MADAM CHAIR, LOTS TO RESPOND TO THERE, SO FIRE AWAY. >> Rachel: WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I ACTUALLY FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE WITH THE ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE BEING MADE. I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S A DANGEROUS ASSUMPTION TO MAKE THAT STUDENTS, JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T PRESENTED A PORTFOLIO OR HAVEN'T WRITTEN AN ENTRANCE EXAM, THAT THEY AREN'T CAPABLE OR THAT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE THE PASSION TO MAKE IT IN THESE PROGRAMS. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT T

RUSTEES CONTINUE TO MONITOR HOW THIS IS WORKING. I DO BELIEVE THAT, AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WE EMBEDDED IN THE DECISION THAT WE MADE. I WAS PART OF THAT BOARD THAT MADE THIS DECISION. BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO REALLY CHECK OUR ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE MAKE WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT KIDS. >> Steve: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE HERE OF SOMEBODY WHO SAID, YEAH, I GOT INTO THE SCHOOL, BUT IT REALLY DOESN'T -- I DON'T FEEL GREAT ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REFLECT ANY ACHIEVEMENT ON MY PART OTHER THA

N I WON THE LOTTERY. >> Rachel: BUT YOUR DAUGHTER IS -- AND I WOULD SAY TO YOU, YOUR DAUGHTER HAS A WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY BEFORE HER. SHE IS GOING TO A GREAT SCHOOL THAT ACTUALLY TRADITIONALLY HASN'T HAD FOR MANY YEARS, THEY HAVEN'T SUPPOSEDLY BEEN HAVING THESE KINDS OF EXAMS OR PORTFOLIOS TO GET IN. ROSEDALE SCHOOL FOR THE ARTS HAS BEEN DOING IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY THAN SOME OF THE OTHER SCHOOLS AND THEY'VE HAD GREAT RESULTS. AND SO I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HER, AND I ACTUALLY PU

SH BACK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT KIDS BEING JUST EXCEPTIONAL WHO COME OUT OF THESE ART SCHOOLS. I HAVE TO THINK THAT WE HAVE WONDERFUL KIDS WHO GET RICH OPPORTUNITIES AT THEIR LOCAL HIGH SCHOOLS AS WELL, AND THEY PRODUCED LOTS OF TERRIFIC PEOPLE. MARGARET ATWOOD CAME OUT OF LEASIDE HIGH SCHOOL. WE HAVE EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE BECOMING ARTISTS IN ALL DIFFERENT WAYS, SHAPES, AND FORMS, AND I SEE THAT WHEN I GO INTO SCHOOLS, BUT I ALSO THINK SHE HAS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, SHE GOT IN. HISTORICALLY NOT ALL KIDS H

AVE GOTTEN IN. THAT'S JUST THE REALITY. >> Tasha: THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO CREATE A SCHOOL LIKE ROSEDALE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND ROSEDALE TOO HAS NOT HAD A PURE MERIT SYSTEM IN THE SENSE THAT, YES, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO AN AUDITION, BUT YOU DID HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE INTEREST IN A TANGIBLE WAY. YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO JUST CHECK A BOX AND SAY I WANT TO GO. BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, SOME KIDS CHECKED THAT BOX AND BASICALLY WERE NOT INTERESTED. THEY WANTED IT FOR OTHER REASONS. MY DA

UGHTER -- WHAT YOU'RE TELEGRAPHING TO KIDS IS THAT EFFORT DOESN'T MATTER. WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING IN THE TDSB IS GIVING KIDS THE TOOLS TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH KIDS LIKE MY DAUGHTER OR HER FRIEND OR ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS WORKED ON THIS AND HAS A PASSION BECAUSE IT'S FALSE TO SAY YOU'RE GOING TO SIMPLY THROW A CHILD IN IN GRADE 9 AND SAY, "NOW SINK OR SWIM." YOU HAVE TO EQUIP THEM AT THE ELEMENTARY AND MIDDLE SCHOOL LEVELS. THAT'S WHAT THE TDSB SHOULD HAVE DONE. NOT A LOTTERY AT THE END OF THE R

OAD BUT AT THE START TO GIVE KIDS WHO DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE SCHOOLS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT SO THEY CAN COMPETE IN A FAIR PLAYING FIELD WHEN THEY GET TO GRADE 9. >> Steve: FAIR POINT? >> Rachel: IT IS A FAIR POINT. IT'S A CHALLENGE WE DO HAVE THAT'S BEFORE US. I WILL SAY WE ARE INVESTING IN MORE ARTS PROGRAMMING FOR KIDS AT A YOUNGER AGE. WE'RE INVESTING IN STEM AT A YOUNGER AGE. WE THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT. PART OF IT IS TO POTENTIALLY E

QUIP THEM FOR HIGH SCHOOL IN A SPECIALTY PROGRAM IN THESE CENTRALIZED STUDENT PROGRAMS. BUT ALSO SO THAT WHATEVER SCHOOL THEY ARE GOING TO, WE WANT THEM TO HAVE THAT RICH EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE, WHETHER IT'S IN STEM, WHETHER IT'S IN ART, WHETHER IT'S IN MUSIC. THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT IN CREATING CRITICAL THINKERS WHO ARE GOING TO GO ON TO DO GREAT THINGS WITH THEIR LIFE. AND THAT IS THE PROMISE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION. SO THAT IS A FOCUS, BUT I WOULD JUST SAY THAT I ALSO DON

'T THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE FULLY FORMED KIDS WHO KNOW EVERYTHING AND KNOW THE EXTENT OF THAT PASSION AND HAVE DEVELOPED THAT BY GRADE 9. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WHEN WE GET THESE KIDS IN THESE PROGRAMS, WE ALL KNOW THAT THE TEACHERS ARE THE ONES THAT REALLY THEN TAKE ON THAT TASK OF MAKING SURE THEY ARE DOING DIFFERENTIATED EDUCATION AND GETTING ALL KIDS UP TO SPEED AND BRINGING THEM UP, AND WE DO BELIEVE OUR STAFF, IF WE INVEST IN THEM AND PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT LEARNING AND THAT PROFESSI

ONAL DEVELOPMENT, CAN DO THAT WITH THESE KIDS. >> Steve: RICHARD, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK WITH YOU TO THE REMARKS I MADE IN THE INTRODUCTION, WHICH FOCUSED ON NOT HAVING JUST MERIT AND NOT HAVING JUST EQUITY, BUT HOW DO WE ACHIEVE BOTH? THEY'RE BOTH IMPORTANT VALUES. CAN YOU HAVE BOTH? >> Richard: ABSOLUTELY. STEVE, THE LOTTERY SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY AN ATTACK ON MERIT. AND I THINK IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE THAT WE'RE SEEING THIS IN PUBLIC EDUCATION TODAY. NOW, THERE'S MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME TO CANAD

A, MANY NEWCOMERS WHO HAVE COME AND THEY'VE TOLD THEIR CHILDREN, IF YOU STUDY HARD, IF YOU WORK HARD, OPPORTUNITIES AND DOORS WILL OPEN FOR YOU. I'VE HEARD IT FROM PARENTS AND I'VE HEARD FROM STUDENTS, SOME OF THE BRIGHTEST STUDENTS IN THE TORONTO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD HAVE BEEN SHUT OUT OF THESE PROGRAMS. >> Steve: HOW DO WE GET BOTH? HOW DO WE GET MERIT AND EQUITY TOGETHER? >> Richard: THERE'S LOTS OF WAYS WE CAN DO THAT, STEVE. NEW YORK CITY, YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DO? TASHA WAS TALKING ABOUT THI

S A LITTLE BIT. WHAT THEY DO IS HELP STUDENTS PREPARE PORTFOLIOS, FOR EXAMPLE IN GRADE 7. SO THEY CAN ACTUALLY GO AND DEMONSTRATE AN INTEREST. YOU KNOW, STEVE, WE HAVE AMAZING TEACHERS IN THESE PROGRAMS, AND WE HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY, REALLY LISTEN TO THEM. I SPOKE TO A TEACHER THIS MORNING, AND THEY SAID, YOU KNOW, RICHARD, WE HAVE ACTUALLY NOT HAD ANY MEANINGFUL CONSULTATION ABOUT THIS PROCESS, AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE, AGAIN, MORE CONSULTATION -- >> Steve: I GET THE POINT ABOUT CONSULTATION.

I WANT TO SEE THE ROAD MAP GOING FORWARD. WHERE -- WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT IT'S NOT ONLY MERIT AND NOT ONLY EQUITY, BUT YOU CAN MARRY THE TWO OF THEM? >> Richard: I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF IDEAS. FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS WHO ARE APPLYING TO THE PROGRAM FROM THESE RACIALIZED GROUPS TO THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS GETTING IN. SO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS WORK ON THE APPLICATION PROCESS. WE NEED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE SO ALL LEARNERS S

EE THEMSELVES AS SCIENTISTS, DOCTORS, ASTRONAUTS, WHATEVER THE CASE IS, SO THEY WANT TO APPLY FOR THE PROGRAMS. THAT'S ONE. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. ALSO, STEVE, THE LOTTERY HAS TO GO. I THINK IT'S REALLY, REALLY CLEAR. I HAVE LOOKED AT PLACES, AGAIN, IN THE UNITED STATES, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, EVEN THEY DO THIS IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS, WE NEED SOME SORT OF A MERIT-BASED SYSTEM. AND, AGAIN, THERE'S NOTHING TO SAY -- I KNOW THE BOARD HAS IDENTIFIED, AND WE HAVE TO DO MORE TO GET THESE UNDERREPRESENT

ED STUDENTS INTO THESE PROGRAMS, AND I'M GOING TO THROW A SUGGESTION RIGHT HERE ON THE TABLE, STEVE. SO WE'VE TALKED ABOUT 20% -- WE'RE SAVING RIGHT NOW 20% OF THE SEATS FOR THESE LEARNERS. AND WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS LET'S CONTINUE SAVING 20% OF THESE SEATS FOR THE LEARNERS. BUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO, WE'RE GOING TO DO IT ON A MERIT-BASED SYSTEM SO EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO AT LEAST DEMONSTRATE AN INTEREST. EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THEIR PASSION IF THEY WANT TO GO INTO THESE PROGRAMS. >>

Steve: LET ME ASK THE CHAIR, ARE YOU OPEN TO REVISITING THE LOTTERY? >> Rachel: SO I THINK AT THIS POINT IT'S PREMATURE TO BE CONSIDERING AND DECIDING WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST YEAR, STARTING THIS COMING YEAR, THAT WE WILL ACTUALLY HAVE KIDS WHO HAVE COME IN THROUGH THIS NEW SYSTEM WHERE WE AREN'T HAVING PORTFOLIOS OR AREN'T HAVING TEST EXAMS. EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, TO THE LEFT OF ME, SEEMS TO THINK THAT THIS WILL BE A COLOSSAL FAILURE. WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE THE DATA TO SHO

W THAT AT THIS POINT. >> Steve: YOU PROBABLY WON'T FOR FIVE YEARS. >> Rachel: WE WON'T FOR A LITTLE BIT OF TIME BUT TRUSTEES HAVE ASKED FOR REPORTS BACK ON ALL OF THIS. WHAT WE KNOW IS WE HAVE BEEN SLOWLY DOING THIS WORK QUIETLY IN MANY OF OUR SCHOOLS AND THE RESULTS HAVE BEEN REALLY GOOD WITH KIDS. SO WE FEEL ACTUALLY -- I FEEL A SENSE OF PROMISE. LIKE, I AM EXCITED TO SEE THE RESULTS. I'M EXCITED TO SEE HOW KIDS ARE DOING. SO I DON'T AT THIS POINT FEEL WE ARE IN NEED OF REOPENING OUR PROCESS.

>> Steve: WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR YOU TO CONSIDER REOPENING? >> Rachel: WELL, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THAT THERE IS A DESIRE FOR MORE PROGRAMS. WE HAVE MORE KIDS APPLYING TO THESE PROGRAMS. >> Steve: I GET IT. BUT AS THE DATA COMES IN, WHAT DO YOU NEED TO SEE FOR YOU TO SAY, HMM, THE LOTTERY IS NOT WORKING AS WELL AS I HAD HOPED? >> Rachel: I THINK WE WILL LOOK AT IT TO MAKE SURE THAT KIDS ARE SUCCEEDING, WHAT IS IT WE NEED TO DO TO ENSURE KIDS ARE SUCCEEDING IF THEY A

REN'T -- IF THEY AREN'T, BECAUSE WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THAT THEY WON'T, AND I THINK WE HAVE TO THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT HOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS. THESE ARE KIDS TOO, RIGHT? WHAT IS SUCCESS AND, YOU KNOW, HOW ARE WE THINKING ABOUT OUR KIDS WHO COME IN IN GRADE 9 AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE HAVING THE SUPPORT AND GETTING THE SUPPORT THEY NEED. BECAUSE WHENEVER YOU GET A GRADE 9 CLASS, THERE ARE KIDS WHO ARE AT DIFFERENT LEVELS. THEY'VE COME FROM DIFFERENT SCHOOLS. THEY'VE HAD DIFFERENT

EXPERIENCES. SO MAKING SURE THAT OUR TEACHERS ARE LOOKING AT THAT AND MAKING SURE THEY'RE GETTING KIDS YOU WILL UP TO SPEED AND MAKING SURE THEY'RE PROGRESSING, AND I DO BELIEVE THAT OUR STAFF CAN DO THAT. BUT WE ALSO ARE LOOKING AT EXPANDING OUR PROGRAMS BECAUSE WE KNOW THERE IS SUCH A DESIRE. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THE APPLICATION PROCESS, WHEN WE HAVE REMOVED THESE BARRIERS, HAS SHOWN US, THAT WE HAVE LOTS OF KIDS FROM ALL OVER WHO DO WANT TO GET INVOLVED. >> Steve: MINISTER OF EDUCATION MAY ST

ILL BE IN THE GREEN ROOM. YOU CAN ASK HIM ON THE WAY OUT. THAT'S OUR TIME, EVERYBODY. I WANT TO THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING IN AND HAVING SUCH A STRONG BUT CIVILIZED DISCUSSION HERE. RACHEL CHERNOS LIN, TDSB CHAIR; RICHARD BILKSZTO, FORMER SCHOOL PRINCIPAL; TASHA KHEIRIDDIN -- EVERYBODY KNOWS TASHA. THANKS VERY MUCH, EVERYBODY. >> Rachel: THANK YOU SO MUCH. [ ♪ ] >> Steve: THAT IS THE AGENDA FOR TUESDAY, MAY 9th, 2023. >>> TOMORROW: AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST JULIAN SHER OUTLINES SOME RATHER UNSETTLING

-- NO, LET'S SAY SHOCKING -- AND LITTLE-KNOWN HISTORY OF CANADIAN INVOLVEMENT IN THE WRONG SIDE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR. HOPE YOU CAN JOIN US FOR THAT. I'M STEVE PAIKIN. THANKS FOR WATCHING TVO, FOR JOINING US ONLINE AT tvo.org, AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW. >> Announcer: THE AGENDA WITH STEVE PAIKIN IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.