Episode 4: The Art of Activism; Animation, Authenticity, and Action with Kazvare Made It.

hey good evening good morning good afternoon or whenever this finds you I'm your host Shantel Sia and thank you for joining me on another episode of to be confirmed the latest hottest podcast series which seeks to answer society's larger questions about race and racism because often the answer to these questions remain well to be confirmed tune in listen and prepare to be inspired provoked and moved as we dive into another episode of to be confirmed hello it's been a while hasn't it anyways I ho

pe that you're well and that you're all blessed and welcome to another episode of the hottest and latest podcast series to be confirmed if this is your first time tuning in hello welcome to to be confirmed the hottest and latest podcast series which seeks to answer society's larger questions about race with racism Society gender and politics because more than often the answers remain to be confirmed and if you're a frequent listener welcome back so today's episode will be an audio only episode u

m but it'll be made available across all streaming platforms so as always please don't forget to like comment subscribe share and review the podcast now before we begin I would like to issue a little disclaimer before today's episode which goes as follows the views information all opinions expressed during the podcast episode are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent any other entity this podcast episode including any information shared and my analysis of the

represent of the information presented is for educational purposes also this is my show my thoughts and feelings expressed authentically and as I always say I like to provoke thought conversation and racist and if I've provoked you to some degree then I'm very very happy with that so I would love to introduce our special guest today I am so so so so so so tra she sat right next to me um the guest that I have featured today is on a special episode that I've titled the art of activism animation au

thenticity and action kajar our special guest is a writer illustrator and graphic designer who is forging inate for herself with her often initation sassy sketches and Searing satire that was a commentary provided by Gracia she has also been listed as an inspirational Woman by Forbes please listen Forbes you know um her work has been featured in Vogue UK and Japan and she has also collaborated with Major Brands such as Adidas and Facebook and has held a pop-up Exhibition at the tape modern her b

rand kajari made it is home to striking stationer home wear and accessories kajari made it combines cultural references and influences in a way that is bold colorful and with a dash of playfulness kajari made it stock list include selfes Oliver bonus and Scribbler kajara released stay woke kids with Cen gate in 20121 stay woke kids is an illustrated children's book for adults covering topics such as white privilege toxic masculinity and racism it employs humor Rhymes and illustrations to convey

Big Ideas in a digest in a digestible way so in other words please put some respect on kar's name okay so fun what can I say after that e so um we are currently parched here with our um Roy boss is that how you say it yes yeah perfect oh fabulous um our Roy boss tea it's my first time trying it so um please whilst we spill some tea uh Buckle in um I've got my trusty box of Ritz crackers to enjoy um so yeah without further Ado um you know if you're sat perched in please put in the comments sectio

n what you're enjoying what what you're eating what you're drinking um and without further Ado um we'll get going in the tradition of the podcast um there will be an overarching question which will be followed by manyi questions which will dictate kajar nice conversation you'll hear our thoughts feelings and the such but I'm going to stop explaining and get to the question so the overarching question the big big question for today's episode in the art of activism animation authenticity and actio

n is the consumption of art allows for spectators to enjoy art is Escape reality and engage with its unique messaging this can mislead the consumer to view art as separate to the world in which it is created in rather than a reflection of the world to what extent should art be recognized as an instrumental tool for society to authentically critique question and act to change our realities through the lens of politics power and race so you've heard a lot of me talking I don't know how long I've b

een on here for but I would love to turn to you kajar so please tell the World about you who are you what well we know who you are what do you do what's your star sign um where you representing and what makes kajar kajar hi everyone Hi Shantel thank you so much for having me today you're welcome um my name is kajari um I am a writer and illustrator and all of the lovely things that Shantel um said thank you so much you're welcome um and uh I was born in Zimbabwe yes um I lived there until I was

seven um been on this cold aisle ever since oh wow um moved around a little bit within but yeah basically been in London for the most part yes um and yeah I've just um had a very varied so I'm you know writer illustrator now but had a very varied career before um worked in youth um the youth and charity sector wow for quite a long time wow um and then yeah meandered my way through and yeah for the past maybe uh eight years I've been yeah doing that's amazing doing my art full time so that is inc

redible so yeah no it's a privilege to be here thank you so much for having me well honestly thank you so much for for being here as well um I was saying to kajara before um that I am I I recently well ignorant yeah ignorantly is that that is a word recently discovered um The Cult some of the culture of of South Africa being well I'm talking about the region and the country um and I have major love for you guys I think you guys are absolutely wonderful um I even though I love my West African Her

itage um I'd like a little bit of a Sprinkle of South African in there somewhere I don't mind which country but I just want a little sprinkle sprinkle um in there but anyone that's from Zimbabwe please if if you know if you're representing please in the comments down below um show share and show your flag and this has been an episode that has been about 7even months in the making um and as kajari and I have spoken um actually fun fact when I first met kajari I actually thought the pronunciation

of her name was kvar so I remember our first meeting I was like hi kvar how are you and then I was like oh wait is that how you pronounce it and you were like no but that's okay and I was like no no no please let me get it right so you got the pronunciation right um but I've been admiring your work as you know for for a very long time um and I had to get in touch with Kar to to provide um you know her unique perspective and and to really get into it and of course um as I've shared with kajari pr

eviously I have a lot of love for the region and the nation of South Africa so any fellow zimbabweans please shout and represent your country in the comments um below um but without further Ado we'll dive right into the chat so kajari um what thoughts feelings emotions come to you when you hear the words animation authenticity and action um I think at first in ter terms of Animation it's more something that I wish I could do so if I'm going to internalize it um yeah I think yeah it's something t

hat I wish I I could do in terms of yeah my art currently it's very my art is very two-dimensional in its presentation um but I do think it adds quite a fun element to my work um your work is great A thank you um so that's kind of like the first thing I think of when it comes to animation um and I guess authenticity is being true to who you are isn't it yes um and I really hope that's evident in my work yes um and I always say this but my art is I want my art to be a resting place yeah and give

space for black PE black people to feel seen and understood um and I think authenticity has a lot to do with that because yeah it's my experience as well I'm not just kind of chatting for the sake of chatting it it comes from like a real place of course of course yeah and I think yeah with action it's yeah it's often what you do after you've received a thought or a piece of information yeah it's very active um and EV evokes like a sense of urgency and empowerment yeah so yeah taking all of those

words I think those those would be the thoughts that mind I love that thank you for sharing kajari um you know conversely um I had a sort of a sit down and and think um and I I like to say it's not me if it doesn't involve the power of three so in that's a word so in terms of um animation um I took the very literal definition um from Kenbridge dictionary which says um enthusi animation enthusiasm and energy or moving images created from drawing so you mentioned the 2D element um models Etc um o

r um images that are photographed done by hand or created on a computer and as you've already communicated it's kind of like so interesting I didn't even think about um all of the other versions of Animation yeah even when I actually went yeah I actually went to just one one side of it interesting yeah even when I was looking I was like oh yeah that's that's a bad point um but I guess that's the part of like I guess when you sort of look in and and and look at changing your perspective and and I

guess digging deeper into that piece you know absolutely um with authenticity um the definition for that provided by K dictionary again is the quality of being real or true which you touched on straight away um and when I talk about authenticity within the context of the definitions considered I'm I'm talking personally about the APT um and the Real and True commentary that you yourself kajar provide um and the uniqueness of your commentary in that space um with action definition again provided

um by chem dictionary uh is the process of doing something especially when dealing with a problem or or difficulty so again you've touched on that right on the head um and when I talk about action I'm talking about the necessity for all of us as a society as people to act um you know considering our current social econom I omic and political climate when I talk about action I'm talking about you know the context of kari's action in her work to resist and challenge you know Society um even mysel

f as a as a I'd say relatively new creative that's that's made her work more public um more public I find it incredible how you yourself can you know create a piece of work you can get the conception create a piece of work and it's it's there in in no time um and I believe that in this piece when I thought about this when I thought about pulling it together and when the title came to me that I felt that you know I could learn from you um and I think your work challenges a lot of discourse at the

moment but I hope for those that are listening in um as you listen to kajara and I talk more about action um authenticity and animation that you are also inspired to you know um think creatively and engage with politics creatively so um back to you kajari how did you find your authenticity um who and what events in your life um and creative Journey inspired you to bless our eyes with your own work I don't actually believe that you find your authenticity I don't know if that's I don't know if th

at's controversial or not but I think that's I think the process is more getting back to it rather than finding it yeah um I think as we get older there's a temptation to actually move away from the things that are really true to us yeah um whether that's yeah finding new identities or whatever it might be um I don't know based on peers or circumstance or even trauma sometimes you kind of move away from who you actually are or created to be like yeah um because I say that to say that I feel like

I knew what I liked and who I was from a very young age that's amazing um that's lucky I I've discovered myself a lot later in life yeah I I'll be interested to hear more about that actually cuz I think when I was about eight I found a well this is a while ago but I found a little notebook and it said oh when I'm older I want to be an artist I want to be a writer oh my God I want to be a chef that that one didn't quite work out for me has to be said um but I think you know what you you know wha

t you like and you when you're young the essence of who you are and what you like yeah I think is there yeah and I think it's really important to pay attention to the things that you that bring you Joy and the things that you also enjoyed as a child cuz I think that gives you an idea of the essence of who you are and so that's why I would say that it's it's not so much finding but actually going back to yeah oh wow that's that's so healing though it's very like inner child healing and that's bea

utiful as well to be able to find that and be like I've man I've written it down I've done it you know that's incredible like yeah I love it and for you though what what were you like as a child like what oh gosh what was I like as a child oh my gosh um I wow what was I like I was very curious I was very weird I still I'm weird um but I had a a really huge fixation on history I anyone will tell history buff like anything to do with history I could even to this day like I will look at a p i someo

ne will talk to me about a really random subject and I'll go down a rabbit hole for days on end researching it um but I always found actually ironically enough I used to write a lot of poems as a young girl um so I guess I always had that writing streak in me but I never sort of took it seriously I was very I guess now I'm an adult I was very detached from my younger self but I guess that comes with trauma and what I had to go through as a as a young girl but um yeah I guess little elements of m

e were popping out and peeking out and I guess now I'm I'm really living in the reality where I can actually you know put my some of my interest to use really so that's some of what has really inspired my story um but even to follow on from what you've shared as well I guess um oh actually let me not go off tangent but um furthermore like I said I discovered myself further along in my adulthood and and I say I said this on several episodes of the podcast but it was it was the 2020 black lives ma

tter movement that was the Catalyst for me so you know um even though I I I was quite ignorant about my racial identity about race as a whole so I never really kind of dug into or or leaned into my blackness for a very very long time um but ironically enough if there were a couple of presentations at school or um uh or whatever I would around race I'd be the first one to to speak about it which again looking back I'm like wow if I really did like went into at that time who knows where I could ha

ve been then but that was that then I went to university did a politics and international relations degree and then I did my de station on the black Liv matter movement between 2013 to 2018 and I had a particular doctor and I'm not going to name name him but I have beef with him for the rest of my life I poured my Blood Sweat and Tears into that dissertation um I got it reviewed and um the people that looked at it were like this is incredible um but the doctor who was a white man that reviewed i

t was like this piece of work is too pmic to be objective um that's ridiculous are you kidding me um basically for those who don't know pmic just is another word for saying too passionate which I think as a black woman to tell a black woman who's writing about the black lives matter movement that the work is too passionate for it to be objective I think it's ridiculous and I actually got a lower grade I thought I deserved um for that piece but yeah that was a very big character building movement

and again transitioning into the 2020 movement um I started on Notes app on the notes app so I started writing literally my exact feelings and thoughts and then that just developed into writing longer longer pieces and providing more commentary on stuff that just irritated me um in the news really um but you know touching on authenticity in a larger space you know authenticity I feel and we've both touched it I I suppose it requires a level of vulnerability in order to connect with yourself um

and Brey Brown um defines vulnerability as uncertainty risk and emotional exposure exposure and of course social justice is emotive and in my view emotion can't be detached from the action required to Champion social justice issues um in the context of you know um art um I did a bit a little bit of research um authenticity also relates to the risk of forgery plagiarism which we'll dive on to a little bit later on this episode um philosopher and critic Walter Benjamin explains in his essay the wo

rk of art in the age of mechanical reproduction um uh that an original piece of work is authentic um and by that he means that it has a specific presence in time and space and a unique existence in the place it happens to be um therefore um a reproduction of said authentic piece of work is isn't authentic um and I think you know that's a a really imperative factor to to take into account you've got to also look at Integrity I think Integrity is also um important in looking at you know um authent

icity in the context of art Integrity looks at the tenacity um or Integrity separately as a definition looks at the tenacity um of one's morals and honesty and of course as we know uh we have our own political compasses and our own Moral Moral compasses but morality does vary on the individual and empathy which is imperative to social justice to to challenging um such oppressive um you know regimes um isn't a skill that everyone necessarily has but of course maintaining a belief system um which

empowers you to act um and create you know art in your case that challenges Injustice shows the connection what I feel anyway is between authenticity action and integrity so so yeah I don't know I feel that's that's how I feel anyways about about that question um so yeah um question four then so um you choose to create impactful work under anonymity and was that a decision influ what was that decision influenced by you know like a producer D let's start that again my goodness stumbling on a Frid

ay like a producer tag how do you mark your your work in a way which identifies you as the artist behind your work I think and I hope when you see my work you can tell that it's mine yes and I hope that I guess some of the markers would be the bright colors the black outline yes hopefully some humor yes um yeah I think those those will probably the be the markers um of my work um funny enough a friend of mine sent me a random fridge magnet and she said oh is this your work yeah um it wasn't my w

ork but I could see why she thought it was cuz there was some similarities in that so it it made me feel quite nice I like oh so my you can tell when it's um yeah it's got a bit of my flavor um so yeah I hope I hope there are definitely markers in terms of yeah looking at my work that you can tell it's it's mine um but yeah in terms of like anonymity I think I like the separation at least at least in this time and space like I like the separation between me the person yeah and the work I put out

there I do you know I don't think it's always very easy to separate the artist and the and the person cuz I think they're they're obviously very linked yeah but in terms of like having my face out there and all that kind of stuff I basically don't want to be seen yeah and if you see me on the street like if I've got a bonnet on like I don't want you to know that it's me you know what I mean why is this girl wearing a bonnet on road like yeah I just want to be out there just free free and but li

ke I I you know it's always lovely to meet people so when I do events and stuff it's always lovely to meet people and like engage with people in that way um I guess it's less stress as well for you in terms of interacting with people and as well for them because they don't know who they're expecting so it's like when they have that first conversation it's like oh wow you know it's it's a more genuine interaction rather than like build because sometimes with C certain celebrities you kind of if y

ou see them you build that kind of mental image of oh my God oh my God oh my God that's what they look like I think that's what they're going to present and then you get there and it's a different conversation but I guess with that anonymity piece it's like like you're saying when you have when you have those moments where people come up to you it's it's more of an organic I don't know if it's I mean you can confirm but it's more of an or I feel it would be more of an organic more of a less pres

sured environment to really kind of fulfill whatever projections people kind of have of you yeah I agree with that yeah I agree with that um yeah I like at least at least for this this juncture of life I don't blame you though I really don't blame you I prefer it this way I really don't blame you um I would say in response to to you really um uh in an article uh written by the next cartel um in the context of anonymity um which I thought quite interesting which I didn't even consider at the time

was that um they wrote in their article that anonymity um and we've touched this already but it can boil down to the notion that you know sometimes Society does look at the artist or generalizes the Artist as like you know the penous person um the unknown artist um and that sometimes when an artist May taste success or where their work may take off then Society may seem to question you know their trust in their motivs or you know why is that artist successful they're doing it for a particular g

ain which I think can be quite of a a weird um binary but I think that can happen in life isn't it the minute someone becomes successful it's like oh why are they successful they're doing it for clout and that's just a different conversation for a different day but what I say is you know why are people concerned with the success of an artist if the work is evident um and provides commentary of a wider issue or a topic you know um and of course as you've mentioned already in terms of in this time

and space um anonymity being a protection for you um you know uh further on to this piece in the the article that I'm referencing um you know anonymity can help audiences believe more of the artist's intention and not question um you know the the work at large um similarly is well it allows the artist in this article that I read that I read um anonymity allows the artist to create outside of the limitations placed on them by their individual lives and egos can I say something to that actually o

ne thing that I find really interesting and that makes me laugh when people meet me is that they assume that I'm a man what so often people like Oh I thought you were a man so that is another interesting piece to me like oh what is it about what I present that's interesting that would yeah that makes you think I'd be a man so yeah that's I never thought that's really interesting really interesting wow that's really weird though I don't know why anyways people are people aren't they in the commen

ts below yeah in the comments below let me know um but furthermore um I think as well and you've touched on this already especially in this WOW choking in this time and space as well there is an element of safety that needs to be taken into account especially when we're calling out specific fake oppressive governments in regimes so even though I present my my work in a way well yeah I present myself in in in the fullness of myself I have to consider you know we're living in a surveillance state

so you know how do I keep myself safe and I think you know anonymi is one way and I remember when I first started my activism work I even considered oh is it worth going you know I wanted to actually go into an anonymous line of work I even had a a a name picked out for myself um what was your name it was going to be activist X that what my name was going to be yeah yeah but I was like no it I'll just you know put my face on that people need to know what's going on um but also as well um you kno

w back onto marking your work defining your work having a work being identifiable of course if we're talking about you know as a business owner you know um marking your work in a way marking your work let's start that again um helps uh with yourself helps marking your work um you know defining your own work helps you as an artist helps the audience as consumers to identify your brand um you know it supports brand brand recognition but also allows you to remain memorable thus increasing your succ

essful business portfolio which as you've heard by the bio that I gave kajar it's a pretty successful business portfolio um so for me as a consumer of your art activism I immediately recognize your drawing style is is there a technical term for it like the way that you draw probably okay I have no idea but I don't know yeah probably like but you really mentioned like the lines the bright colors um and I ironically enough I literally wrote vibrant color scheme in my script um and your wit um in i

n articulating your feelings via your trusty speech or thought bubble um against a topic and the thing is the way that I process your art is I Envision it as a gym helper moment from the office do you watch the office yes yes so like whenever I see your piece obviously it cracks me up but I Envision it as like a moment where like I look at it and I look up to like the imaginary camera as like a there we go again right the nails right on the head um you know the piece on the Australian referendum

with the kangaroos the beast in the beauty um pieace with the whole rubbish discourse around Georgia Smith's body all of those of course there's so many pieces of work that you've created that I've lit time and time again been like there we go but you know I guess in all of my Spiel I feel like your work for me as a consumer is is a way of saying what needs to be said but in fewer words you know um which is ironic because we actually spoke about that earlier today so yeah um activist art is a u

m is an art style um and defined by take galleries is a form of political or social currency um actively addressing cultural power structures rather than representing them or simply describing them now a lot of your work demonstrates a clever way of addressing said cultural power structures or schemes um from your artist therapy sessions to the commentary of Pol of certain politicians of color who Pander to white supremacy boo boo tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow boo um yeah so I I would like to ask y

ou would you define your art it's one thing me coming here and saying the art of activism but would you define your art as your version of activism I guess it it it can be seen in that way I tend to to personally shy away from that label okay because I feel like it suggests a degree of altruism on my part that isn't necessarily my driving force okay um so if an activist is a person who campaigns to bring about political or social change I think it'll be a disservice to those who are really on th

e front lines for me to adopt the same title um I create Arts to make space for Joy even where pain and rage exist yes um and for me it's a really cathartic experience yeah um and in many instances it helps me make sense of the world as well um and so I share it with the world also in part for others to feel seen in their space of pain and rage too yeah um and so I share it to call out things as I see them and so yeah I think there's definitely something um about taking that rage and using humor

to show yeah like the absurdity of like the human behavior and one of my favorite quotes um of my babe um James bwin is it says to be a negro in this country is to be relatively con sorry uh James borwin quote that says to be a negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of Rage almost all of the time wow um and I think for all of us that rage has to go somewhere it does yeah um and so I've been trying to channel mine through illustrations and in a way that feels th

e most authentic to me so I feel like rage um you can feel rage but and I think it's right and good to feel rage um but also try to make space for Joy yes somehow some way in that yes I think I think two things can be true at the same time 100% 100% yeah so I think even in my book Stay work kids many of the topics um kind of point to the anger yes of certain situations especially when you're on the receiving end to them and I think my book doesn't make light of them at all but it points to the a

bsurdity of the behavior yeah um yeah so yeah for for instance one of the um uh one of the limericks in there it's called hold up oh um and it's all about a white woman who says she doesn't see color but clearly she does and so when she's navigating through her ordinary day yeah you can see that she's CC in color yeah yeah and so it just shows that like assertions like that are wildly disingenuous wow yeah it is yeah very disingenuous like don't waste my time with that yeah exactly so yeah I fee

l like I can understand why some people might think this is activism maybe it is activism but it's how I do it yeah it's not I don't know if it's my driving force I think it's yeah it's more of a cathartic yeah therapeutic music yeah it's part of what you do it's part of your process and I think for me activism is a huge spectrum and I think that's why I've created this series um the art of activism which there'll be more to be confirmed at time to be confirmed but um yeah the way that I I I vie

w your work is that you know it's it's it's it's there for a time and a place and I think any type of action whether that be written whether that be spoken whether that be you know illative whether that be you know marching that you know as long as it's you know challenging social political structures as long as as long as it's you know pushing people to act um as long as it's stirring emotion in some kind of way um I think that's a form of activism in in my view um so yeah I mean touching on um

you know activism art um further on in a um article that I looked at called the origins of activism art um by Stephanie graph um the origins of activism are can be seen as early as the 18th century um there's an example provided where um in the French Revolution there's an artist called oh please French people do not butcher me here uh there's an French artist called Jac Louie David I don't oh that was horrible I'm so sorry um but there were an active member of the French Revolution to the poin

t where his artwork um outraged Royals and was banned from an exhibition and I'm going to touch on later about fantastic sorry I love that energy a thank you um I'll I'll touch on you know outrage a little bit later on the podcast in terms of reception of your work and and so forth um but you know in terms of activism um art it can be described as works that challenge racism sexism authoritarian regimes and or War warm War um they usually have a common denominator Which F which has a focus on so

cial and political issues with the con with the intent to change or influence public opinion by confronting people with an unjust or problematic status quo so again that piece that you were talking about just now about you know that cathares that um as black people um being in a constant state of Rage that that translates straight into that um definition there I think um you know art is a wider piece um art is created to catalyze Hearts so I view that as awareness and Minds to enact change so of

course widening one's knowledge and visibility and I think that also ties into the action part of this title um a couple of you know anonymous um activist artists or artists I can't Define them um uh would include uh Banky and the gorilla girls um and I really want to talk about an example of activist art um and that is um banksy's piece um lovers in the air um so for this piece um I'm going to try and describe it it shows a man throwing um well depicts a it's a graffi piece depicting a man lun

ging to throw a bouquet of flowers um which is meant to replace some M of cocktail um the piece in itself first appeared um on the West Bank wall um in Gaza in 2003 um and love yeah so yeah okay um yeah the peace lovers in the air first appeared on the Gaza in Gaza on the West Bank wall in 2003 um now lovers in the air um uh is a commentary piece um on the building of the West Bank wall which was built in 2002 um that the Israeli government built to separate the Palestinian minority from the Jew

ish Israeli population um and at the time um whilst they were supporters of the construction um and people saw the construction of the wall as a safety measure and Justified it um conversely um Banky and and many other people thought that the West Bank wall was a separating and segregating barrier reminiscent of apartheid um so so you know with that being said um uh the image of flowers my brain is like what am I saying with the image of the flowers um that is in the um that the man is lunging t

o throw um it's often seen as a symbol for peace a call for peace rather than than violence um and I can't really go to the next question Without Really acknowledging what is actually going on at this time and place um at the time that we're recording this episode we are currently um looking witnessing in um and seeing live and direct the genocide of the Palestinian people um of many innocent children and lives and the institution institutions actually plural um who use representation Politics a

s part of their brand um are failing to hold the Israeli government accountable um with that being said actually touching on the piece about anonymity and safety and and all of all of that um as well we are also seeing the active silencing doxing and harassment of those who support the Palestinian people um the palestin people who have been unlawfully removed from their homes unjustly removed from their homes Aid removed um people who are still waiting with their house keys to go back to their l

and places of worship and hospitals bombed um at the time of recording today there are over 3,000 civilians Dead with over 1,000 children making that total and again these people are killed in the name of quote unquote never again which absolutely like boils my blood to think about it as I'm watching it on social media as I'm watching the discourse that surrounds um that it's it's it's wild to me um and again that smear campaign piece to to Bram those who criticize the international lawbreaking

brutalist and barbaric actions of the Israeli government as anti-semitic is untrue but as black women um who understand the lived experience the Legacy the harm the and the trauma um and the genocidal nature of colonialism um especially you know 20 years after banksy's painting um you know decades after 1948 I only have two words and those two words are free Palestine amen um but anyways for those of us who um share the same sentiment I would please advise you please write to your MP um if you d

o demonstrate please know your rights please keep yourself safe um and also for donations um to provide Aid to the Palestinian people um and also to Gaza please um go to map which stands for medical aid for Palestine they are a uk-based charity nonprofit working to support Palestinian refugees and Palestinians living under Israeli occupation and finally on the activism um piece um in another article I I read called an investigation of the intersection between art and activism by Emily Wilcox um

touching a little bit on on on some of your bits on what you talked about activism being um will Cox states that um activism can often be a approach With Attitudes um as it is you know as uh to be seen as you know problematic and ineffective um and as we've discussed empathy um as well will Cox actually States in quotation well quote marks to affect real change activists need to work through cultural means which again I think it speaks for itself so yeah wow anyways I got that off my chest I had

to say that but um but yeah anyways so the consumption of Art in any form I'm here I'm like if you can see what like if you could see how we're recording this episode You' think I'm about to swallow this microphone I nearly like dive my whole cheek into this thing anyways the consumption of Art in any form opens itself to criticism push back or alignment with the set intention of the artist this of course uh takes into account the subjective nature of lift experience of the consumer and their i

nterpretation of said artpiece Kar just a scope of whom may see your work and how they engage with your work play a significant part you know a role in in when you create I think when I create work primarily it starts with what I want to say first and foremost yeah um and then also in a world that often centers whiteness I try to Center the black voice yes um and the black gaze primarily yeah um but I think it's interesting sometimes when I read the comments um yeah yeah I have to remember that

people often comment based on where they are yes 100% um 100% and some people some people are just a little bit obtuse this is I say that um this isn't this isn't often and this isn't everybody cuz I often see actually quite lovely feedback yeah um but you do sometimes notice the one or two comments you're like oh actually you're speaking from your own place of uh jiber jabber want so yeah so I do I think as the artist I sometimes have to separate myself from like oh they're not always making a

comment on what they are making comment on your art but actually it's coming from the way that they see the world yes and you just have to let them do that yeah um and sometimes just don't interfere in that that's that's actually none of your business um you've done your you've done your job to create the thing and in many ways which is the scary bit of being an artist like once it's out in the world it takes on its own life it it really does and you kind of just have to let it do that yeah um a

nd you can't yeah you can't control what people think and how they respond to your work you just have to do your part 100% just yeah let it let it do that 100% I completely agree and following on from that I literally wrote in my script today beauty is in the eye of the beholder so you know know in in the context of my own activism with my my writing and my podcast work as far as I'm concerned personally if 99 people hated it and one person resonated with it fantastic you know I'm I'm happy if i

t the other way around I'm also happy um you know personally um you know and as you've shared I believe so deeply in the impact and the power of my own work that I know it speaks for itself in a way um where in a competitive world where everyone is providing so much content and creating so much content that it it it still provides its own unique Spin and and commentary on on certain elements and bits and pieces and where we're seeing a world that's looking for the the next best hit or the next b

est trend um that's an achievement um there's an art critical art critic called Danto um who also describes activist art as certainly not beautiful it is angry ugly and aggressive um it blames yeah it blames a different an indifferent Society for the illnesses seeks to represent this too is activist for it means to provoke the society into doing something but then the artist must not be shocked if the audience is angered by it rather than but rather than by what it points to which again speaks t

o what we've both literally just shared um and of you know like I said in my disclaimer today when it comes to the piece of work I like to provoke thought personally I like to provoke thought conversation and racist if you don't like my work I will tell you to absolutely suck my beep but um um sorry that was funny um I think the other thing is it's really important to pay attention to who is hating your work and who is loving your work yes because even sometimes whether it's on whatever um socia

l media platform I'm looking at yes if I see that it's mainly I don't know like white far-right people that are think saying yes I really like the point that you're making if if that were if that were to ever happen I will know that I've lost my way yeah I will have lo I will be like out to see yeah I'll be like I'll be very upset then I'd have to question everything yeah so I I do think it's important you know if if I RI up somebody who you know is you know again white far right I feel like I'v

e done my job 100% I feel like yes that that makes me feel good actually I can sleep well at night really should night sleep yeah literally um so yeah I think it's definitely important to yeah who who is loving your work who is hating it why are they loving it why are they hating it I think that's those are good questions to ask 100% um and even following on from that um you know I think in looking at activism looking at art um we're talking about language and language is so diverse language is

so powerful um and the message message behind each piece whether that be for me written you illustrative um this also dictates The Wider impact and reception of a piece so we've talked about this already like you know um meaning a piece you know created yeah meaning a piece that's created hours after something that has happened and whether it be a trending news or topic or whatever is likely to get eyes on it because it's it's it's on a topic that everybody wants to get their two cents on wants

to get their their perspective um on um however um as we've literally just said just now um having a large set of on a piece of work or having a plethora of comments doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is on the same side um or everyone you know agrees with with your with your work or has positive intentions towards um our work um and again I've touched a little bit on algorithms and competing but you know we're looking at censorship as well in terms of the the realm of activism and and acti

vism art as well having to you know thinking about some social media platforms where if you put a particular flag or put a particular name or something you're Shadow Bann for like what two three weeks speaks um like I can speak from experience like on on my platform I'll I'll post miscellaneous stuff I'll post the most random and weird memes plethora of people watching it but the minute I put the word met police race racism anything around that I'll have 1% of my following that has actually even

seen or engaged with my work which I think is very very ironic um but I would actually argue with that being said in terms of the context of sponsorship that potentially you know um in the case of black square Instagram and performative activism that that might actually serve censorship because with that it promotes a lack of critical thinking in Social discourse and I think that really I guess when we're talking about lack of critical thinking in Social discourse that also of course touching o

nto your piece on where people are coming from in their interaction with your worker it's it's a it's a whole kind of cycle isn't it um but that's that's an observation that I found was really really interesting um so uh with that being said said um your bad apples piece um in my opinion was one of the most astute and impactful commentary pieces that I've seen it currently sits on your P page as one of the most popular pieces what was your thought process behind putting it all together and did y

ou expect it to Garner such a response on social media I never exped it it's literally never at all yeah no I think and I think what's bizarre is bizarre the word but like there was no special thought as in obviously I thought about it but I I thought about it in the same way that I think about all of my work so there was nothing extra special that I did on top so it's always interesting to me to kind of when I create work to kind of see how it's received because I have some of my personal favor

ites that you know get a very lukew reception which is fine cuz I think it's it you know we all resonate with things differently isn't it yes um so I yeah I was shocked I wasn't expecting people to resonate with it in the way that they did um and yeah it's it's lovely yeah yeah no it's it's incredible kajari and before I actually continue um side note today is my if I haven't said it already today's my first day trying um Ry boss tea and I'm very anxious and I get nervous around trying new foods

and things why is that by the way why is that um I don't know what I'm trying to even I'm really trying to think right now why is that I think I'm just scared that I won't like it like I just I get I have a comfort food and I just stick with it and I just get like ah I'm not going to like it like it was literally two years ago that one of my friends was like Shantel eat an avocado and I did and I liked it that's so funny so um I think it's it's just a lot of fear really if I'm honest with you l

ike I have a very specific like comfort food so like I now love Ritz crackers whereas before like for 10 years I was a bread stick girl through through but like I only liked one particular shop of bread stick um in fact to the point where like I could someone could give me a box of bread sticks and they would hide the label I'd eat it and I'd be like that's not the bread sticks that I eat like I was very I could even tell you the price point changes the the Peaks the troughs you need to buy shar

es and whoever sticks um but unfortunately they changed the recipe so I don't like it anymore but um yeah I just I get it's kind of like my TV shows and TV series is like even with that objectively like it takes me a lot to actually try something new so I'm trying to break that habit but do you watch do you watch the same um TV shows over a lot like I've for reference I think I've watched the office like five times I've watched the boys I started the boys the whole series one to three this year

I've already rewatched it we rewatched it um but I like what I like but I'm trying to I'm trying to do better with with expanding myself I hear that but if you like what you like that's fine that's fine but um I will say though thank you for pushing me to try this red bush tea cuz I really do like it I I didn't know what to expect one thing I also like doing so we're having it um dear listener we're having it we just so it's just um the tea bag in there and hot water yes um I also drink it with

a dash of milk okay so you just treat it like it's like an English breakfast so you know maybe if you're willing to try again try it this way and then also do it with a bit of milk and see how you feel about that I mean I've got loads of tea bags so I can give you like half of my BX and I'll take the half home and enjoy that so I'll definely yeah I will yeah I'll feed back with the milk um but back on topic um with the bad apples piece um currently on your page it stands at uh 19,44 likes and ov

er yeah yeah oh gosh um and 397 comments um now a lot of those comments were very much like yes oh my God like this is it um I have even spoken to you privately and I Shar it on on both my podcast platform and my personal platform and in both inboxes all I saw was that's it like I've never seen something explained so like straightforward and I was like this is it this is absolutely it um and considering that this was published literally a month ago um since you put that piece up and you know for

me another angle to consider you know is the role of culture and its relationship with art in the art of activism and I think um with this particular piece the bad apples piece I think it really breaks down the need for intellectualism it really breaks down the whole kind of you know essay piece around the bad apples um discourse you know the need to know every single academic Theory and literature and and you know um especially when we're talking about a discourse surrounding um the already do

cumented and I quote institutionally racist misogynist misogynist and homophobic met police um also with a bad apples piece as I was analyzing it I I thought to myself like whether you're a vegan whether you're a vegetarian whether you're a p pescatarian whether you're a meater whether you eat the air I don't care no you cannot sit there and tell me you're going to eat a pie that has bad apples in it like like it was so I just thought it was so on the nose that you just couldn't refute it um you

know like you can't you can't Snow White me when we're talking about apples you cannot Snow White me I'm not going to be eating this apple you can't do that um and when talking about art you know looking at question five and this discussion we had there um around the role of activism um in talking about globalization talking about you know the the diversity of language globalization means that you know some activism can be culture-based um and we're talking about the culture of the police here

um that's the commentary that's been provided in in the case of the bad apples piece um and of course with the role of culture and globalization that can also play a part in the understanding of you know universal language and and symbols for example the black power fist is a significantly powerful symbol in in protest um and of course uh the bad apples piece challenges the bad apples theory that goes on and on and on um and furthermore I ask why should we as a people be forced to listen to prop

aganda why should we be forced to accept that oh it's just a few bad apples it's just a few bad police officers but we're talking about the same police officers with their guns that were protesting but yet have no problem ramming themselves into a 13-year-old black boy playing with water guns do you know what I mean um and furthermore I also thought you know as I was looking at the bad apples piece that you could really repurpose it to look at different types of um debate for example you know th

e quote unquote debate against femicide and violence against women you hear a lot Not all men that same that same concept can apply again you're not going to eat or involve yourself with anything that looks smells and is off um and again touching on um on this piece um in the previous episode if you haven't please have a look episode four um black youth innocence Instinct and independence with cadra abdin air from Center for mental health I talk about the politics of representation in media and

the politics of representation I'm talking a little bit too fast the politics of representation um by um scholar Stuart Hall he re he he defines it as the production of meaning through language through systems of images objects events and language and of course this is how the media chooses to maintain the socially narrative discourse I.E the bad apples it's not all of us piece um but it's how the media chooses that to maintain the socially dominant Narrative of a US versus them to further divid

e and conquer disenfranchised people so again I've told you already in private so many times but again incredible piece I loved it um and you know another example that I found was really really incredible was the white Ally piece um especially after the battle of Montgomery the piece where you had the chair um and it was the Ted Talk and it was like this is what it means to be a white Ally again I absolutely crease myself like that's it like M funny enough I didn't get any comments from that whe

n I shared it on my platforms but maybe it was a few of the white folks kind of feeling a little bit like oh maybe it's that simple to be an ally but what do we know exactly um literally um so your book Stay work kids was published in 20121 um just after 2020 which was a was there me start that again [Laughter] your book Stay woke kids was published in 2021 after 2020 which was a socially and politically charged year in a society where we're seeing woke us as a pejorative term and the rise of ce

nsorship against critiquing white supremacy how does your book reflect the current state of affairs I think sadly it's still very relevant yeah um and the same issues are here just in different forms yes it's interesting actually at the beginning of the year I thought to myself I wonder if I could actually go a whole year without posting what and just literally just repost things that I've done before really and I think there's a degree to which I could have done that because a lot of the same i

ssues and same things up they come up and that's obviously that's sad you know I would hope that as a society we would move on but yeah we're still yeah grappling with a lot of the same things isn't it yeah it's so true so true so yeah basically everything that I've written in my book still stands yeah it's beautiful I'm looking at it like in the flesh it is so cute and like the eyes in the I didn't notice that um obviously you won't notice it online will you until you see it in the flesh but th

ere are eyes and the gaps in the A and the O which I think is really like awake like anyways that's me just digesting it like thinking out loud as we're recording but that's pretty cool I love it it's beautiful a thank you it's beautiful but yeah yeah and I honestly I think people who use W woke in the way that they do yes is it's just embarrassing I find it so embarrass like I look at them I get secondhand embarrassment I'm like you know and especially when you you ask them what do you mean by

that that's when they start scrambling that's when they start sweating yeah because they know what they're doing they do they do and as you were talking I was even thinking like again you have to colonize language like you can think of your own term to to pull up when we're talking about what if you're talking about challenging what we're saying um and actually I'll um a quote that you shared in an article um for black blossoms um your quote was stay woke because despite white majority culture t

hinking it's a slur we don't have to see it in the same way which I very much um agree um and if you don't mind um there's a there's a page in your book um uh called bow down um and it talks around immigration discourse um and the limeri um or limeric poem um Limerick Fab the limmerick um goes immigrants are taking out jobs no wait all immigrants are slobs but when we move countries we don't give a monkeys we're experts we're awesome we're Gods now if that doesn't tell you about the culture of t

he UK um I don't know what will um and funny enough actually on my way into the studio I saw on the tube there's an advent for a particular um institution where they said um AI won't take all of your jobs which I thought to myself that's a really interesting campaign to run why is it that software is given more compassion and more of a devil's advocate position than humans why is why isn't the same grace extended to them why is that debate not understandable not computable when it comes to to to

refugees that are that are coming into the country to to build a better life for themselves to to flee from from you know dangerous situations but again when we're looking at you know the government and and their policies on on immigration I I think it's yeah it speaks for itself really um in terms of you know looking at um you know staywoke kids and and the impact of that book um again touching on um uh episode four with uh kadra um innocence Instinct and Independence um there's a piece on you

know challenging the school curriculum and the Need For Education you know your book out here as you've said is a is a piece that's really out there to support people in Digest ing you know huge Concepts you know huge huge Concepts around race gender um politics um and again and again we're seeing our government saying that you know it's unnecessary to have gender education it's unnecessary to have um education where you know the British government and their role in this transatlantic slave tra

de and the impact of that is a is to be acknowledge at schools it's it's it's yeah it's pretty interesting um but with that being said um very recently actually literally this week um in an article by the guardian um the children's book publisher Scholastic um has said in the US that they will separate its titles in Elementary in in Elementary School Book Fairs by race gender and sexuality allowing school districts to either include or exclude the list which I think is absolutely wild um yeah ab

solutely wild um and the decision was made in a response to dozens of state laws restricting how the topics are discussed in schools which again if we're looking at educating people and being aware of the world that we're living in and how it impacts them as young children individually but also the world that they are witnessing at large in the society that we're seeing as a whole that is it's it's detrimental to have these laws that are put in place um now with this publisher they actually rele

ased a statement which I will um which I'll actually uh oh my God my brain which I'll actually read out loud um which says there were there are now enacted or pending legislation in more than 30 US states prohibiting certain kinds of books from being in schools mostly lgbtqia plus titles and books that engage with the presence of racism in our country because Scholastic Scholastic Book Fairs are invited into schools where books can be purchased by kids on their own these laws create an almost im

possible dilemma um back away from these titles or risk making teachers Librarians or volunteers vulnerable to being fired sued or prosecuted we cannot make the decision for our school Partners around risks on what they're willing to take based on the state laws and local laws that apply to their District so these topics in collection so they made a list as mentioned um where am I have lost my trailer of thought you know when you're reading something and then you lose where you were that's so an

noying we cannot I'm going to go back to here we cannot make a decision for our school Partners around what risks they're willing to take based on the state and local laws that apply to their District so these topics and this collection have been a part of many planning calls that happen in advance of a shipping Fair we don't pretend the solution is perfect but the other option would be to not offer these books at all which is not something that we'd consider end quote and I just kind of want to

touch back on again your book and how that how does that feel for you you know um yeah how does that feel for you in terms of writing the book creating the book and developing it in in the context of all of this what do you mean in the context of understanding that we're in a world that is seeking to to silence um this type of literature that's seeking to to not give this to children you know that that doesn't want children to learn about race that doesn't want children to learn about gender th

at doesn't want children to learn about you know toxic masculinity as such does that make sense I feel like I'm being a little bit unclear yeah I think yeah it's it speaks to the Societies in which we live isn't it and I think um I once made an illustration of Henry VII um and I think it said something like how many times are you not going to learn about my me and my baby moms or something like that and I think um yeah yeah often especially in England if we kind of contextualize it to to here ye

s um what we tend to learn about in the school system is very limited and it's it's often The Glory Days isn't it so world World War II oh we were victorious then yes oh you know Henry VII and I can tell the whole syllabus like it's it's literally Henry VII World War II Cold War um a little bit of Queen Victoria um and that's about it that's yeah that's it and I think that's done from a obviously they know what they're doing but it's also really anyway the way that I see it is it's from a place

of insecurity isn't it 100% um and I think often especially like if you're telling a story to somebody about something if you only tell the good bits of what what your behavior was and not actually oh actually but I also did this yeah um yeah you're just you're not you're not painting an accurate picture you're not you're really not and you're not at all and I think for me with my work and my activism a lot of my education was outside of the institution of education so for example in my history

level we learned about um Israel and Palestine and it was so diluted it was very much like all the ball decoration was sent and that was it and now we have two countries and it was like oh okay interesting when it came to the Civil Rights era Martin Luther King rosea parks that was it there was no actual mention of the Brit like British role of um you know the transatlantic slave trade which led right into the Civil Rights era movement there was there was nothing in fact they even dashed a littl

e bit of here you go watch a bit of roots that can be your education for there today like it's like you said it's it's it paints a really inaccurate picture it's also doing a disservice to people you know let's God forbid in the UK they were saying let's ban these titles and they they put your book on a list and say let's let's B State workk kids that that would again hold a significant detriment to people being able to access knowledge and again everyone has different ways of digesting um um Co

ncepts you know for example looking at your book for example looking at uh an an essay that's been written for example and I think you know this kind of I guess the question or the um I guess I I call it a worry for me anyways the worry of censorship around white supremacy only provides an an imperative for us as people as people that like to to be activists that like to act um the impressive nature to educate to educate people to educate you know yourselves and I feel like as I've said already

your book has a a really great way of diversifying the way that an artist um or an activist goes to to get their points across so next question um unfortunately there are disparities in visibility for black businesses creatives and plagiarism which is common for black creatives have there been challenges or hindrances to your art and your creative processes and if so how did you navigate them um yes there have been challenges wow um spill the tea I think the challenge really is to keep going if

I'm honest with you um and I think you know a lot of black businesses uh are less likely to receive funding yes um just across the board and especially uh black female Le businesses are even less likely to get it's true I think it's like 1% or 0.1% of like it's it's a ridiculous number like black businesses but then when you think oh let's interrogate that number and how many women are at the helm it's even more shocking wow um don't quote me I think it's but it is it is but still like tragic it

's under 5% yeah under 5% of funding like wow yeah like Capital seed funding whatever those words are I don't know I'm not a finance bro Finance put it in the comments below exactly tell us literally um and you know some of my you know some of my favorite uh black businesses have actually shut down in the past 18 months what just just because of I don't know I think there's I think there obviously there are a lot of reasons as to why people will kind of fold their businesses but like when I've s

een um you know the the when I've seen the announcements that they've you know put out I'm like I get it yeah um I get it and yeah it's really difficult it's really difficult and like honestly even this past year myself I've been like oh like just pack it pack it in shut up shop because no no honestly like it's it's not easy um it's really not easy would you really pack up shop please don't go of course like yeah of course I yeah I would but not for now okay good I was going to say please this b

etter not be a fwell I feel today do you know what I mean there are definitely days where I'm like no this is ridiculous yeah um yeah wow so so how did you navigate then how have you navigated these challenges to your work um I mean you said keep going but like keep going I think having a good support system so definitely like family yeah is a good support system um and friends yeah um I also have a lovely group chat with mother U black female boss babes shout out to you lot um and even this pas

t week I was in there ranting like can you believe this and I think it's important to have those spaces because some some things are not meant for online no they're not consumption so leave it in your group chat and yeah I'm really grateful to have that space yeah of people who who get it um and who are navigating the same if not similar spaces as you yeah um I think that really helps um yeah and it's just yeah it's literally one one foot in front of the other yeah yeah um yeah it's not easy it'

s actually not easy it really isn't even in the time that I've been doing it it's just been like H like it gets to a point where there's just even for me like when it because I do a lot of writing when I can sometimes I'll look at the news and I'll be like oh there's there's five different topics I'll have five different concepts of five different pieces but it's like by the next week it's like oh wait there's more oh wait there's just okay like how am I meant to navigate this and and and try an

d communicate my feelings but also what I think Society should do as a whole also like you said it's cons the same issues are coming up again and again and again why do we have to have these conversations again and again and again to to understand what's actually going on in the you know in the case of um Israel and Palestine why are we still going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on when what really needs to be acknowledg is that the Palestinians are living under an apartheid st

ate like like there needs to be change now there needs to be a ceasefire now there needs to be you know people being seen in the international criminal court of law now do you know what I mean like it's it's it's it's jarring um and I think you know adding on to the bits that you shed as well with hindrances to work for me personally like I've already seen hindrances to my work but I try I try a lot of the time you know it's hard um you know I think everyone would be lying if they said that you

know some type of negative feedback doesn't kind of sting a little bit but it's life we kind of get up and we we move on um but with that being said for me you know it's by the by it is what it is um but as I've grown and grown and grown in my work I've seen a lot of not a lot that's not a lot God forbid I reject that on myself but I've seen little like you know flirtations of of hindrances like there's an example I can give you listeners today um I was working let me try and phrase this in a wa

y that is diplomatic um an example a couple of years a couple years ago a year ago I was asked to write a piece of work um for a particular media house um this piece of work um would include my cultural um Heritage and and little bits and pieces there and it was meant to go to an external media house and and this that and the third I'd written the piece i' co-written the piece actually with someone and sent it to the people that had requested me to write the piece fantastic all I needed to wait

for was the link to to share with people anyways the link get shared I click on the piece and I find out that my name had been taken out and everything else that had specifically identified me was removed now I went back to the people that had asked me to write this piece of work and I was like I think this is so disrespect I had to be professional so I was like this is so disrespectful you of all people know that I take my work seriously um how could you and the people at the time were like oh

we're so sorry you know with media it's just how it is it's just it's just the way that it works and and oh we'll have a chat we we'll see what we can do um they even have the audacity to to even say to me oh this person's really upset they're going to try and fix it they're going to try and fix it outrages what was it I'm still not getting their rationale I you tell me I I don't know so anyways I I told them you have you have two options either you take the you tell them to take the piece down

or you tell them to put everything back where I left it because it's very disrespectful oh but the media house wanted to go with the bigger name I was like I don't care anyways by the end of the day they fixed it they got everything put up and also actually side note I said to them if I didn't click on the link yah wouldn't have told me that that happened so like you're also complicit as much as you want to say oh we don't know you're complicit anyways um wow please um so uh so where where do we

need to go who are we jumping after this I can't say I can't say um but yeah I can't say at the moment but it was it was a for me you know that's that's a very mad thing I've I've done an illustration on this before where often you feel like you have to protect people do the most wild things a lot of these institutions a lot of these companies they do the maddest of things and then you can't even call them out really the way that they deserve the way they deserve to be wild but thankfully you k

now the co my co-author backed me all the way another incredible black woman who I hope to have on this podcast very soon um but she all the way was like you need to get this on it's unacceptable they rectified it they apologized they were like oh the journalists would like to speak to I I don't want to speak to them it's done it's dusted I've even had people say to me oh um in terms of challenges to my work I don't want people to think of you when they think of race Equity um girl girl if I ope

n my mouth and say names and places people will be down my throat okay but I I take do you know what I mean I take all of that as well you see the impact of my work um and whatever hindrance you thought you were proving to me has proven ins significant because I'm still doing my eras Equity Work do you know what I mean like I'm still here um and it it really jars me and do you know what's really funny many months after I was blessed enough to have a life-changing opportunity to work with Greta w

here I wrote my piece on unconscious bias with with um Prince Harry and again that was my first ever um piece with with a big big big media house and did I have to do a have a sit down with them telling them to put my name back on the piece no I didn't so it it for me again that was a huge character building moment it still is a character building moment as a young professional that is still navigating her way through the world and and still trying to cuz I don't know about you but I find a lot

of the time when it comes to successful black women when it comes to black women who are so outspoken who are so you know Unapologetic in their own art form there is such a weird need to Humble them or belittle their accomplishments and I think time and time again like if you are insecure in yourself just say that and just deal with that by yourself why are you projecting that onto me because if it was someone else who may not have the same you know the like you said a support system like you kn

ow your group chat or your friends or you know a good enough self image that could really break down somebody that could break down someone's defense system I had someone an ex-friend say to me one time oh you use big words for no reason again these big words have got me on my podcast and I've got me in grancia magazine so how about that do you know what I mean like it it is so like I could talk about challenges all the time but yeah it you know like Beyonce says I'm one of one I'm the only one

don't even waste your time trying to compete with me no one else in this world can think like me so I think when it comes to you know anyone that's listening that is a black business owner that's also creative that's that's also you know putting their work out there and trying to navigate your own challenges and please put in the comment section please you know um tag us in your responses have you had any challenges to your work if so you know how have you overcome them have you had any similar

experiences to kajari and I you know and have you got that Sisterhood have you got that so space where you have family where you have friends um that can lift you up but my goodness gracious like I say I know you've been in the game for a long time but yeah in my in my beginning stages it's been a lot of having to navigate BS and having to really again I can't say right now but it's having to just think okay that's a note to takeen because I know that when I grow I'll have to probably deal with

with other types of with is as well so yeah anyways I could keep going for forever but I've got I've got it off my chest so I'm happy with that that's outrageous I can't believe that outrageous but again when I can say what I can say what I want to say I will say it but why when I tell you like when that person said I don't want people to think of R when they think of you I remember thinking you are mad you are absolutely mad but let me not I don't even want to say too much yet but let's keep th

at step in so as an artist do you feel the current art landscape does Justice to authentically critique question and um act to change our realities of Sy of systemic oppression um and for that I put race gender and class through the lens of politics power and race I think it yeah there's there are always artists speaking if we look close enough yes um uh there's a an exhibition on it at the moment I don't know whether you've you've had a chance to go there but it's at the barin um the curve is c

alled um chorus in rem memory of flight I haven't no um and it's by an artist called Julia KNX um and it basically uh tracks or talks about the black diaspora in Europe and just often we think you know basically racismo is everywhere isn't it you you just basically get a different version of it um and it kind of deals with that and you meet yeah just black people from yeah all over Europe and it's just a beautiful exploration of of that yeah if you get a chance see that it's free um yeah I think

artists are speaking all the time I think often they just don't have the mic yes that's that's that's all that it is um and I think yeah sometimes we have to either go looking or 100% maybe just open our eyes sometimes really um yeah that's no shade like sometimes we do have to just we have to a bit more yeah circum ECT and aware of what's going on but yeah they're they're definitely always artist speaking I think yeah I agree um and following on from what you've just shared um an artist called

iway way um has famously um they are a Chinese artist who has famously worked with various mediums materials and Styles and his work um uh is is well known for critiquing the Chinese government which is pushed him on the international stage um and he says um similar to having a and and and just opening our eyes and speaking really he says and I quote an artist must be an activist aesthetically morally or philosophically this does not mean that they have to demonstrate in Street protests but rat

her deal with these issues through a so-called artistic language without that kind of Consciousness to be blind to human struggle one cannot even be called an artist oo powerful quote powerful powerful quote from this artist um and in terms of art that speaks on the on the landscape that speaks to critique um you know society as a whole um there's a there's a we would have seen it um it was in the peak of 2020 it's a series called stolen um by the artist um Adrien Brandon um and the series stole

n is dedicated to um black people whose lives were robbed at the hands of the police and the series touched on Grief and the unknown so with this artist what they did is that they would draw um the individual um but they would color them they would color them in um using a minute for a year of their life so for example they did um that's heartbreaking heartbreaking really beautiful series though like and just put into context again like the brutality of violence that that us as black people face

um they did one of timir rice and again only coloring in for 12 minutes do you know what I mean like and it's just that seeing of that like it's unfinished like they weren't able to live their lives to the full fullest extent George Floyd um Adrian did a Adrian Brandon did a piece he was colored in for 46 minutes Bri Taylor was colored in for 26 minutes um and again really poignant um but again as I was writing the script I was like oh my gosh like that's one that comes to mind is one that real

ly critiques the the social landscape and I haven't seen more of their recent work I hope they're still out there if there is I would like to have a look at it um but I feel controversially actually that I don't think there is enough um activist art out there I don't think there's enough of a variety out there um but rather I think what we're seeing is a huge population of Instagram infographics um where you know and I think you know it's great in terms of having that information but I think we'

re seeing a huge surge of infographics and I think um I don't know I just think to some extent it can encourage people to be a little bit lazy I think it encourages people to to not use their own voice and use and dig deep inside themselves and think obviously it's great to educate yourself please do that before you speak on a topic but I just think it's imperative for us as human beings to really act um I don't think it's okay for us to sit down and be like oh it's okay like Kar will put a post

up I'll just share it or Shantel will put a piece up I'll just share it like it'll be absolutely fine but yeah I just think it it it yeah it just ties into L of of critical thinking um you know it's it's the bit of like I've done my part I've done the sharing I've shared 10 pieces no use your voice and do your thing hello viewers wherever you are thank you you for tuning in to another episode uh we're taking a little break now but stay tuned we're going to play wavelength again everyone's favor

ite game so uh stay tuned and uh I love you bye kajar what does Action as a consumer of Art and a creator of art look like tomorrow and Beyond is social political Equity obsolete um one thing that I have loved actually is um hearing that teachers have used um my artist teaching tools what um for their classes that really yeah I've been really moved by that actually um and I think um education to me is always an active movement yes um so yeah even going back to you know what you were saying earli

er about you know certain books being taken out of taken out of action or just not not allowed in in schools it's for me you know in a very small way it's amazing that there are some teachers that are are still taking back that power and taking back um yeah the work back into into schools and doing that's beautiful doing lovely stuff with it so that that excites me um and yeah I think for me like as especially as a creator of art um I'd love to be comfortable enough to be able to fund other arti

sts to create work yeah um and create art um and for that often you need time and space and not have to worry about your bills oh my god um so I would love to be in a position to be able to do that and I think that's um yeah that's one yeah one way of being active isn't it yeah of course um and yeah I think it's amazing to be able to I guess use your voice to to speak on things but also Empower other people Empower other people to do the same yes um so I feel like that yeah I think that's for me

for me anyway that's where the action would come in fantastic thank you kajari um I think adding on to what you actually drinking game as you're listening through this um episode please take a shot or a swigle of whatever you have whenever you whenever you hear me say adding on to that um but yeah adding on to that um for me action as a consumer of Art and as a creator of my own art activism whatever you want to call it um you know I think like I said before the art of activism when I created t

his is an Ode to the various ways in which people including yourself Kar um can truly challenge social injustice and I said this earlier in the episode but for me activism is such a broad spectrum again whether it's poetry whether it's I don't know you bangging some pots in a in a weird arrangement of a flag or something that that provides some type of commentary um the opportunities and the the vessels are so endless um and you know what as long as oppressive regimes continues so will the Call

for people to rise up and act against it continues um and you know in in response to whether social political Equity is obsolete I don't know that's part of why I've developed this podcast because you know we the podcast is here to discover whether we really will see a social political um Equity Equitable State um or world as you will and if we will really see true Liberation um but I guess I guess yeah that's that for do you think that we will see Liberation people have asking this and I'm like

I just don't know um I think actually I was ask this on my friend's podcast franchesco's podcast Cham chat UK um a couple of years ago do I think we'll see Liberation Lord um right now in this current climate I don't think we will see true li like true Liberation where everybody is treated the same I just think Society is too ingrained at the moment I think Society is too focused on um living in the same cycles of behavior so let's talk in the context of race with white privilege and and the wa

ys that it's manifested people are so comfortable living in that if that means they are able to have more visibility and and and not have to deal with police brutality and if that means their black peer has police brutality doesn't affect them or their family that's fine for them um which we've seen time and time and time again we see apathy in the context of of Healthcare in the in the context of class um and I just don't think people are willing to um have that empathy until it affects them di

rectly um and again like I've said before empathy isn't a skill that you can um you can really teach it has to be kind of within you or not with you in you know whether we and you know even this current um this current witnessing of the genocide of the Palestinian people I personally for me I don't think I've been so shocked to see such to divide in discourse I don't think I've been so shocked to see the amount of people who were doing up black squares coming in and saying oh my gosh the Palesti

nian people are are this and that and are defending the Israeli government which for me is like I feel like we we took five steps forward in 2020 and then 10 steps back so do I think we'll see Liberation as of right now I don't think so I don't want it to be because personally for me in my work I I see myself I'm unrelenting I I know that I'll keep going no matter what but I don't know I really don't know yeah it sucks but I just don't know yeah so yeah um but yeah finally though um yeah on a li

ghter note actually um for the aspiring Aspire wow shant pronunciation for the aspiring artists and activists around the world kajari um please share a word of encouragement I think that one of the most important things for um artists across the board is to Have Courage yes um and I think courage what what do they say it's not the absence of fear but it's doing it anyway isn't it yes um and I think to do your art whatever that might be um yeah it requires courage it requires courage in terms of

like just getting it out there full stop um and it requires courage if especially if you're talking about something to kind of just get it out there despite the feedback you might get 100% um yeah I think it's I think we're in a generation or maybe they well I think they've been many generations where this has been the need but we're in a generation where um there is Need for courage and there is need to speak out and say the things that need to be said yeah um and it's like you were saying earl

ier you you can't just wait for other people to do it no um like we've all been given a voice um and so yeah I think we have um an obligation to use uh the gifts and the talents that we've been given yes and we need to Steward them well yeah um and so yeah I think that often requires courage so yeah for whoever's listening to this like yeah be be brave be bold and just yeah walk in the gifts that you've been given like don't waste them yeah don't waste them fantastic thank you so much Kari um to

add on to that um for me in terms of what I have to share in terms of my encouraging word um you know the ability to create something um you know whe it be written spoken we've I've gone over this time and time again um which for the purpose of this episode pun intended um to create something which colors outside the lines of systemic oppression whether that be climate change racism gender class geopolitics or a mixture of all of them is something that should be expressed um you know be unafrai

d literally you mentioned this courage and be unafraid to stand out against this to stand out against the socially dominant Narrative of the white supremacy to be outstanding again as kajari has literally just said um in her own words your own art um I say your own art of activism lies deep within you and definitely explore that you know because it it and explore what empowers that especially um and you know the more voices we get out there the more I can sit here and one day say yes we will see

true Liberation one day um because it's now more than ever we need to see a different climate we can't we can't we I don't know how as a society we went into isolation in 2020 and we've come out as a whole in a completely different headp space where it's like to to campaign for social justice as a different type of isolation like it it it's we deserve better than this as a people in in my view so yeah anyways so um ending on this podcast kajar which other artists I mean you've mentioned um an e

xibition before but which other artists exhibitions and showcases would you recommend to widen one's social political knowledge awareness and activism Journey great question Shantel um I I can only speak to what I've seen recently um so as well as um chorus and rememory of flight um I don't know whether you've been to the tape modern recently they've got I'm actually going week oh good you have to check out um oh what's it called a world in common so it's an African contemporary photography exhi

bition um there was lots of good work there as well um so yeah definitely check that out I lots of exciting artists there Fab thank you so much kajar um wow that's incredible um I'm trying to see if I've got any um any recommendations really um in terms of recommendations um there is an expion going on I haven't been to it um but it's at the somerset house it's the Morgan Stanley exhibition um and it's an exhibition on black British culture and um the black British culture's contribution to um B

ritish design British design history which um I believe is running until the um beginning of November um in terms of an exhibition yes sorry forgot to say that is a very good exhibition I did go and see that yes faul um Harris Elliot is one of the people that was um Harris Elliot C helped um to curate it yeah it's really good it's really to see I'm excited okay cool thank you um also um well it's not on now but one that's actually stuck out to me um was an exibition I went to um on my 25th birth

day in January and it was called Rebel Rebel um by soia sakanari um the exhibition title it was actually at the barbon it was in the c um and the title borrows from David bwi's 1974 uh cult pop song and pays tribute to the significant courage of 27 female icons from pre-revolutionary Iran who pursu their careers in a culture enamored with western style but not its freedoms um so at the at the exhibition um there were 27 portraits um there were some clips um from different types of um Iranian fil

m um which featur some of the these um artists and actresses as well and and there's also a really cute holographic display I'll try and get some actually no it's an audio only episode but um yeah really really like beautiful um really touched me as well um it ended in February actually but yeah it was if you were able to see the rebel Rubble exhibition please again let us know um what you enjoyed um the most um and if yeah what's stood out to you what portraits stood out to you um so yeah in te

rms of artists I've discussed um I way way um and his incredible work in terms of challenging the Chinese government um he has also curated a documentary film called cockroach which follows a 2019 protest in Hong Kong before China placed it back under its judicial and political control and he is currently working on a docu series about the life of um uh rendian refugees um also there's cind Wy um an American artist whose work in his words and I quote um uh quotes historical sources and positions

young black men within the field of power um he is also um the first black queer artist to be commissioned for a professional portraits we did the professional portrait for Barack Obama um there's also um the Guerilla girls as well um gorilla girls who I've referenced earlier in this episode um are an anonymous group of um activist artists dedicated to fighting institutional sexism racism um and inequality in the art World um since their formation in 1985 um they've done a a summation of letter

campaigns um exhibitions pieces um and because of their anonymity no one to this day no one knows who the gorilla girls are so if I mean you never know how the universe works but if any of you are listening hi hey I'd love to to speak to you that'd be great to have you on the podcast we're manifesting that um but they say uh we could be anyone and we are everywhere so very om ominous um and one of their pieces which which I've actually got here on my script um is a little pop quiz which goes if

Black History Month is if February is Black History Month and March's woman History Month what happens the rest of the year I'll go to you what do you think happens the rest of the year whiteness the rest of the time isn't it you know what not far off discrimination was the answer that they put in oh interesting um and obviously I cannot be list in all these artists and not actually say kajar um can you imagine all these artists and yes so thank you so much you can go home now but no um yeah ka

jar of course kajar made it of course the special guest in the episode um again please um have a look on their social media um again I'll tag everything um ready for you to um peruse um every yeah their their shop their store you can get all their merchandise um their books they work kids I will have cuar go into more detail and give a better summary than I have but again all of their artwork please engage with it please share your networks um and I hope it inspires you to get involved so to fin

alize today's episode you have heard kar's incredible insights and nuggets for prospective business owners and our shared experience as activists to some degree albeit different types of activism this conversation in my view challenged the notion in which we as people cannot collectively witness and experience social justice in our outward world but seek to escape it when other creators when creators are people of the world simply the person is political however the lived experience morals Integ

rity knowledge of social and political injustice mean that in my view it is to a great extent that art should be considered as an instrumental tool so guys and girls and days in the in the case of the overarching question for today which was and now remind you all the consumption of art allows Spectators to enjoy art Escape reality and engage with its unique messaging this can mislead the consumer to view art as a separate um entity to the world in which it is created in rather than a reflection

of the world to which extent should art be recognized as an instrumental tool for society to authentically critique question and act change in act change um for our realities through the lens of politics power and race now of course subject to the variables that both kajari and I have mentioned the answer to that question has and is yet to be confirmed wow so kajar please in better words than I could um let the folks know where they can find you and how we can keep supporting you and the incred

ible work that you do um you can find me on social media um kajar made it at kajar made it so that's k a z v for Victor a r e made it um on Instagram on Tik Tok not that I do much Tik tocking I lurk more than post there um Twitter um and I think I've still got a Facebook account um so you can find me there um of also got a website where you can buy lots of fun greetings Cards stationary mugs notebooks I've got some um lovely yeah new notebooks coming out um so yeah you can find me in those place

s fantastic thank you so much kajar um I've actually got a little uh lovely gift from kajari actually very sneak peek into what may be coming out um beautiful notebook so please um creatives find a support a black business importantly but um yeah find yourself one of these amazing notebooks and get your ideas in them U so in terms of the podcast as you know uh you can find a podcast on anywhere you listen to a podcast whether that be Spotify Apple Google um and the like um please leave a lovely

well actually be honest say it with your chest um as um another podcast shits and gig says but please leave a RW review um that' be helpful um YouTube Please Subscribe um you can find the podcast atore tobec confirmed pod on Tik Tok and Instagram as mentioned already kajar socials will be tagged all of the websites will be logged in so you can um have a look there um if you are interested in the sources that I used I do keep a list of them um let me know and I will provide them for you all as we

ll to have a peruse for yourself um but also if you have a guest someone that you would like me to feature on this podcast um please let me know um from time to time I will ask for um insight and input um so I'd like to to know what you like to see and of course kajara and I spoke quite a bit today um but if you feel there's anything that you know kajara and I have missed or there's a an element that you want to expand on again comment section that's what it's there for um please feel free to to

explore that um but as always I am so eternally grateful for your support um again as I always say it's certainly a amount of time this podcast will be internationally renowned um but as always I will see you all very very soon on the next episode of to be confirmed at a date and time to be confirmed so um yeah love you lots and I'll see you very soon hey thank you for joining us on another episode of to be confirmed I hope that you feel inspired and please don't forget to like share comment sa

ve And subscribe to the podcast we'll be seeing you very very soon with another episode at a date to be confirmed wave length we're about to play wave length wave length wave length we're about to play wavelength yeah lovely fantastic okay so the rules are simple we play wavelength you ready okay I've got a number maybe let's let's go for chocolate bars okay cool H okay cool um I'm thinking of crunchy oh that's got to be like a three really see I'd say that's high no really although you look sho

cked as when I when I said three you're like you're shocked so I need to stop okay so it's obviously higher in your estimation fine okay um second one give me a uh day of the week Wednesday oh that's pretty mid it's pretty medium isn't it it's not the start it's not maybe a bit lower than do you like Wednesdays for some like reason maybe you've got some Obsession Wednesday okay uh and then your third and final one TV shows TV shows movies it's going to actually get people being like what but um

Finding Nemo Finding Nemo is a good film in my opinion oh oh did you see her face so we got crunchy she was shocked that you said it was bad okay so it's it's not as low as three but it's obviously not high because finding me yeah Wednesday and Wednesday is mid so I think that's like a five to be five I was shot because you got it oh was a three oh really I hate crunchy bars I don't like Wednesdays and oh you were shock the sh yeah that's why I was like I need to only one that was thinking so li

ke the reason why I say funing Nemo before people start jumping me in the comments is because like I watched but to be fair I didn't really watch uping what I didn't grow up watching Disney film so that's probably one aspect of it two um I watched it I did fall asleep in between but I just I didn't connect with it that much so maybe I'll watch it again you guys can convince me but yeah it's a three for me I'm sorry anyway that was wave length wait let's do another round oh another round yeah cuz

we say cies right yeah see I'm cluing on okay um oh snacks Jaffer cakes o what are you saying for me that is horrendous I hate you know what's funny I was going to actually bring some Jaffa Cakes to the studio today I wouldn't have touched them I wouldn't even looked at wow that hurts my heart do you think cuz it you love you hate them yeah I like them we'll go with MCH let's see the next category next category is going to be month of the year January oh that's my birth month so again it's very

sub cuz oh yeah is subjective isn't it yeah cuz I could be like I like a new year I like a sh tell our birthday final category final one um oh seasons of the Year winter remember true remember oh it's going to break my heart it's going to break my heart but what numbers do we are we going to agree on it's not high it's not I know is it it's not um what thew I'm going say four I mean my spirit saying three be lower you know my spirit is saying three but I'm saying four we January winter and Jaff

er cakes so I'm saying she hates I've reckon you hate Jaffer cakes so yeah I'm I'm going to say two my spirit is saying three but let's go for two for diversity okay it's a solid one oh really I really need to speak on this because I don't know why Jaffer cakes exist are you trying to be a biscuit are you trying to be a cake just pick one pick one side it's like the KY stor of snacks like just be something jelly the jelly in the middle what is it horrendous take them out of the shops immediately

agreed wow absolutely terrible I feel sad and I'm really sorry that um like wait no no go on go on there you go no no no honestly I think the only thing that I can give you is that like when I first bite into one or when I first feel one it kind of tastes as if like you've left a biscuit pack open exactly that's horrible but like it's not like any other St biscuit do you know what I mean but like it still tastes nice in my opinion this the side eye I'm getting right now absolutely not absolutel

y not and I'm so sorry that January is your birth month because I'm so sorry I'm proud as in the one thing the one thing that I love about January is that like at least you know you start you start your new like a age year and the like fresh new year as like it all goes together but that's that's that's about it like no one has money in January no one does when in January is your birthday 18th in my Capricorn okay okay so people might no yeah getting money again but like it's still a bit of a pr

ecarious it is a precarious time but you know I lots of my I I know lots of wonderful people born in January so it's not anything against people born in January it's just the month simar to it's cold it's horrible like you're poor like there's just no here was I like hey guys I'm here to arrive I'm ready to be bor everyone's like yeah broke yeah it's just um and again winter obviously that's that's a solid one W favorite season really of the year cuz I I like being cold I prefer being really I'd

rather be so cold and heat my myself up than so hot that I am struggling to breathe and I'm in a heat wave oh my goodness so when it was a heat wave here you're one of those people that were saying I wanted to be cold yeah I sat by I had I actually bought my floor fan I used to I got into ice yeah I just get a fan and just enjoy I don't understand by my fan I have my window open sometimes um but I have my fan on at night when I sleep which is people are like what you're going to get sick but I'

m like no I like being cold cuz like then I can myself up in my 15 blankets and just no yeah it's comforting maybe it's part of the Nemo complex get some help shant that's funny but yeah oh my gosh um but again I hope you enjoyed that lovely segment of wav length um with kajar Franchesco that's going be a new theme song now with kajar Franchesco and I um please again I cannot thank you enough kajari for your time your support your effort your patience it's been a seven months seven month baby re

ally um and I'm so proud that it's been birthed that's so weird to say but I'm just happy that the episode is is here in in the full term in in in the atmosphere and yeah almost an upwards really but I hope to see you I know I'll see you again at some point in time um but yeah please support kajara please support Franchesco in his amazing amazing plights um do you want to say anything about that or are you okay with that I just say Shantel is amazing in the effort that she puts in for these uh e

pisodes so you need to give back and subscribe like leave a nice comment as my dad would say leave a nice comment uh and spread the word all right guys it's been a pleasure thank you so much for having me thank you but yeah I will see you all very very I don't know why I'm sing songing Everything But I will see you all very very soon guys at guys girls and days at a time to be confirmed please oh sorry yes I thought you were waiting to press the [Music] [Music] button five one two one two mic ch

eck mic check