[MUSIC PLAYING] BLACKTHORNE (PLAYED
BY COSMO JARVIS): Behold the great warlord,
brilliant master of trickery, who tricked his
own loyal vassals into a noiseless smothering. Minna shinu. Crimson fucking horse shit. EMILY YOSHIDA:
Welcome to "Shogun-- The Official Podcast." My name is Emily Yoshida. And I was a writer
on the series. And after each
episode, I dive deeper into the different elements
that went into making "Shogun," with co-creators
Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, along with the
cast a
nd crew that helped bring this story to life. This week, we're
talking about episode seven, "A Stick of Time." As usual, this means that
there will be spoilers for this and the
previous six episodes, so consider yourself warned. On the podcast today, I'll hear
about Toranaga's relationship with his son from
actor Hiroyuki Sanada, how Gin laid the seeds
for the Geisha class with producer Eriko Miyagawa,
and how the music for our show gets into the minds
of our characters with composer Leopold Ros
s. But first, Rachel Kondo,
executive producer and co-creator, joins
us again to talk through just how pivotal
this moment in our story is. RACHEL KONDO: There's
something dread-filled about this episode. You just have this sense
that the other shoe is going to drop. EMILY YOSHIDA: The tension and
dread that fills this episode all comes back to
Toranaga who, as usual, is totally opaque when it
comes to his feelings or plans. RACHEL KONDO: There is
a moment when Toranaga is in his contemplation.
He is meditating as to
what he's going to do, or so his advisors think. And everybody's waiting around. And we see this beautiful
scene of Toranaga standing by a Torii
gate and doing not much. He's just-- he's thinking. And the director of this
episode, Takeshi Fukunaga, had a great idea
for this moment. And he shared an anecdote about
his childhood in Hokkaido. And he told us how kids used
to throw stones up to the Torii gate and make a wish. And it was just such a
small, specific anecdote. I t
hink it is important to note,
simply because that was one of the ways in which we
could bring in actual lived experience of our crew. EMILY YOSHIDA: It's interesting
that, to hear its origin, because it's a childhood thing,
from somebody's childhood. And in a way. It kind of gives away how
really at the end of his rope Toranaga-- you know,
he's doing this very kind of almost superstitious act. This feels like the
first time in our story where Toranaga is
actually genuinely taken by surprise by s
omething. RACHEL KONDO: Right. EMILY YOSHIDA: It feels
like this is genuinely not a part of his plan. And the fact that it comes
from this family member feels especially, especially
cruel in some way or another. RACHEL KONDO: Saeki
was the much younger half-brother of Toranaga. And he kind of always had
it out for his brother because Saeki was
the lesser lord who basically was relegated
to watching over the calm waters of Yuzenji. And he had a lot of
time on his hands. And he grew his most
excel
lent ponytail out. So yeah, we have this freed
up person who comes in. And he doesn't have
much to lose, so-- EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah, yeah. It feels like the kind
of person who, you know, when they have a lot
of time on their hands, and you as Toranaga
are not necessarily keeping a strong hold on that
alliance, that's somebody who can go rogue on you. RACHEL KONDO: Totally. EMILY YOSHIDA: So Gin is
somebody who's not nearly as close to Toranaga as
somebody like Hiromatsu, or even Buntaro. But she's
been kind of watching
him from afar, we can tell, and maybe seeing
something in him that even those closest to
him in his inner circle, they can't even see. I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit about this very kind
of game-changing scene between Toranaga and Gin. RACHEL KONDO: This scene
between Toranaga and Gin is one of my favorite scenes of
the entire season of the show. The scene is played
so beautifully by the actress Yuko Miyamoto. And every time I
watch it, I'm riveted, because
I'm watching
her eyes as she's pleading her case to Toranaga. And her eyes actually
are filled with tears that never seem to fall. And I'm always wondering
how you do that. But anyway, Gin seems to have
of narrowed in on something it seems even his closest
advisors and friends and son might have missed. And it kind of perks up
both Toranaga to her, the case that she's pleading. But it also perks
us up as an audience because maybe she is right. Maybe he does have a plan. Maybe-- we have no idea
what
is going on in his mind. But I do think that
the character of Gin and the character of Toranaga
share something in common that is pretty unique and special. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. They're both
visionaries, in a way. That, We can definitely
see from the scene. RACHEL KONDO: They're
long, long gamers. I mean, it's quite
an ask, you know? This is a man who
is on the brink of kind of personal
and political collapse. And here, she says,
let's set that aside and discuss my lifelong dream. And she p
resents
this plan, which is basically the precursor
to our modern understanding of the Geisha. And she asks him to protect
women in her line of work and to treat them as the
artists that they are and for the art that they do,
and for the passion with which they put into their craft. And you know, it's just
this-- you could see her, as she watches that
stick of time going out, you can see the ache in her. And she's pleading this case in
front of a man who could snap his fingers and she be
dismiss
ed, killed, overlooked, as she always has been. It's a really powerful scene. EMILY YOSHIDA: So this episode
ends with one of the more shocking moments, I
think, in the series, with Nagakado's quite
inglorious death. It does change the kind of
structure of our series, in a way, because
it does ratchet up the stakes for Toranaga
in a really specific way. This is his son. This is a huge loss in what's
already a very dire situation. How do you think this changes
Toranaga's plan, his strategy? Or yo
u know, how does it affect
how he sees his situation? RACHEL KONDO: It's a great
question, because he's trying to either survive, or he's
trying to accept and surrender to what is about to befall him. And we don't know. And no matter what it
is, it's like you said. It's a very
pressurized situation. And the stakes are very high. And then all of
a sudden, his son dies in this very,
very terrible way. And it feels so pointless. And how do you hold up the
whole of your plan/non-plan and also grieve
, right? And it just feels like the
world, or Toranaga's world as he knew, it is done. EMILY YOSHIDA: Even before
the tragic loss of his son, Toranaga is at a low
point in this episode. HIROYUKI SANADA: Episode 7
is a hard, one of the hardest part for Toranaga, right? EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA:
Almost like a bottom. EMILY YOSHIDA: Back
to discuss Toranaga's dashed hopes for his son is star
and producer Hiroyuki Sanada. HIROYUKI SANADA: Of course, he-- Toranaga loves Nagakado. That's w
hy he's trying
to be hard to Nagakado, as an education. So the young boy is always
eager for everything, right? So maybe Toranaga tried
to teach him patience. Toranaga see the
possibility in his son, but, ah, not enough yet. Not enough yet. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. It feels like
Nagakado, as his son, is sort of this one hope
of a successor or an heir or somebody to see through
his vision for Japan in case he's not able to see
it through himself. HIROYUKI SANADA: Yeah, he's
very important for Toranag
a, because if he created a
new world, dreaming world, it can't be finished in
Toranaga's generation. You know, it have to
continue next generations. EMILY YOSHIDA: A dynasty, yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: Yeah. So that's why it's
important to teach him. EMILY YOSHIDA: In addition to
all the other producer duties that we talked about and
consulting on everything, you also had a lot of input into
the stunt performances as well, right?
HIROYUKI SANADA: Mm-hmm. EMILY YOSHIDA: So
what did that involve? I be
lieve this episode
has, you know, a good deal of fight scenes in it. Were you, like, there on set
when combat was happening? HIROYUKI SANADA: Before on
set, during the rehearsal, or-- at that time, I gave
them pointers about sword fighting or all other things. So many different weapons there
on set-- sword or naginata, spear. So all different way to use. So of course, hard to
them, for the young actors, or especially for the extras. And luckily, I had a great
stunt coordinator, Lauro, who was in
"The Last Samurai." We worked together-- EMILY YOSHIDA: Cool, yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: --a long time. So he knows me. I know him very well. So, easy to communicate
and then collaborate. EMILY YOSHIDA: And trust, too.
HIROYUKI SANADA: Trust. Yes. EMILY YOSHIDA: You need that
with a stunt coordinator, I'm sure. HIROYUKI SANADA: Yeah, creation
and safetiness, both ways. And we had great
stunt guys, too. But I loved all the process. EMILY YOSHIDA: There's
also such a scene I really love in this episo
de
between Toranaga and Gin. HIROYUKI SANADA: Oh, yeah. EMILY YOSHIDA: And it's
interesting, because saying there's so many people
who are close to Toranaga, are working with him, but I
feel like very few where I feel like they're almost
Toranaga's equal in terms of, like, their minds,
their vision for the future. And I love that scene because
it shows somebody who is also thinking very far
ahead about, you know, what her legacy is going to be. And you haven't really
spoken to her before. This i
s almost like one
of the first meetings. But it's such a kind of
meeting of minds, I feel like. Yeah, I was just wondering if
you could talk about that scene and what Toranaga sees
in Gin at that moment. HIROYUKI SANADA: Another
lucky thing for me, I worked with her before. And then she graduated
the same university. EMILY YOSHIDA: Oh, wow. So, way back. HIROYUKI SANADA: Yeah,
way, way, way back. EMILY YOSHIDA: Amazing. HIROYUKI SANADA: So, easy to
communicate on set, of course. And also, I thin
k Toranaga
felt something similar in Gin, I believe. She also a strategist,
and something-- create something
from the bottom. And then she became a
top in her industry. EMILY YOSHIDA: In
the world, yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: Right?
EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: And created
a new world in the history until now. So maybe he felt-- maybe because he
was in the bottom, but still wearing the armor,
tried to keep his pride. Only her came into his mind. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: And
took
off his armor. EMILY YOSHIDA: Mm. HIROYUKI SANADA: And then wait. I forgot something. I have to be myself again now. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: Gin gave him
something important medicine. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. That's a great way to put it. HIROYUKI SANADA: During
that one stick of time. EMILY YOSHIDA: That one
stick of time, yeah. Yeah.
HIROYUKI SANADA: I think. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah,
because in a way, it's also just encouraging,
maybe, to have somebody-- everybody there is getting
ready
to dig their graves. HIROYUKI SANADA: Yeah. EMILY YOSHIDA: And she's not. And that's important. HIROYUKI SANADA: And
then people doesn't know who gave you great advice. Sometimes not parent, not
friend, you know, Hiromatsu. Like we are, you know, we
can come back from the bottom in one song or one movie. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: You know? EMILY YOSHIDA:
Something unexpected. HIROYUKI SANADA: That was
Gin for Toranaga, I think. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. Gin helped Toranaga
recenter himse
lf amid the turmoil around
him with a vision of the future to match his own. But what is this
vision Gin sees? What is this proprietor of a
rural teahouse building toward? When we see sex work depicted
in Japanese historical fiction, we often only get a narrow
look at the Geisha system. But the history of
courtesans and the evolution of their role in
society goes back long before the Sengoku period. It was only in the years that
followed, in the Edo period, that the idea of the
Geisha, as we kno
w it today, was solidified. Gin speaks of that history
in this week's episode during her stick of
time with Toranaga. Gin is a forward
thinker in our story. Set on the cusp
of the Edo period, her work represents
many customs that would have come in the
following years and decades. Even the use of the
incense to measure time was a relatively new practice
for the era, a symbol of her eye toward the future. Courtesans in Japan had long
been seen as more than just those who traded
intimacy for money
. Women like Kiku, Gin's
most prized courtesan, had to be skilled entertainers,
musicians, and dancers. Gin sees underutilized
value in her courtesans, petitioning Toranaga
for the creation of a guild in his new empire. This formalization
of the profession would lead to the creation
of the highly organized and hierarchical Geisha
class and be the foundation of a rich cultural district
in Edo, built on the skills of entertainers who
brought their performance and artistry to the new city. The firs
t sign of courtesans
in Japanese history appeared in the Menyashu, an
8th century anthology of poetry. Like the teahouse in
Ajiro, courtesan groups had a clear structure. And in the Sengoku era,
all these positions-- chief, vice-chief-- would
all be held by women. This would come to
change in the Edo period, with men becoming involved
and a more rigid structure for brothels being implemented. Regardless of what the
future holds for her, Gin stands at an
important turning point for her profession
. And it's hard to
imagine anyone standing in the way of her ambition. The teahouses were one way for
a samurai to relax in Ajiro. But there was another
feature of the region that you can still
experience today. ERIKO MIYAGAWA: Izu is known for
awesome, awesome hot springs. EMILY YOSHIDA: Producer Eriko
Miyagawa returns to the podcast to take us inside the
setting of some of the most tense moments in this episode. ERIKO MIYAGAWA: I
think historically, you know, hot springs was known
to have grea
t medical benefit. So you know, samurais
would nurse their wounds or relax in hot springs. I think that was quite common. I do think it was quite common
for people to make a trip and visit certain hot
springs that is known for certain types of water. EMILY YOSHIDA: So Saeki,
as Toranaga's half-brother, is a lord in his own right. But it's also kind of clear
that he sees himself as lower than Toranaga in some ways. And so I was kind of wondering
about that relationship of half sibling and how
it
worked, especially among the nobles and the samurai
class, and how it affected, you know, your lineage
and inheritance and all that kind of stuff. Was a half-sibling
seen as lower? And yeah, just what
would their relationship have been like growing up? ERIKO MIYAGAWA: The big thing
is, who is your mother, right? Is it the first
consort, second consort, or you know,
somebody much lower. I think that played a big part. And also, the first
son, second son-- the earlier you are,
most likely you're c
onsidered higher in rank. I don't know if Saeki and
Toranaga had much relationship. They're quite far
apart in age, and given that Toranaga was
sort of pawned off as hostage from a young age. But I'm sure Saeki grew
up hearing, you know, all these great story of this
child war prodigy, Toranaga, and must have developed
this great sense of insecurity and complex. So yeah, this is his moment. EMILY YOSHIDA: So I wanted to
talk about the scene with Gin when she's having her
meeting with Toranaga, w
hich is where the episode
gets its title from-- "A Stick of Time"-- which just refers to the
actual stick of incense that burns down and the
conversation that they have during that time. It's a very important
conversation on a character level. But it also has a lot of
significance historically. Gin is sort of talking about
the life of a courtesan and what it would have been
like in that era, still kind of in the Sengoku era. And it's different, for
sure, from what we think of as Geishas or what
will be
Geishas, and kind of what she's proposing in this conversation. So could you talk a little
bit about that scene and this conversation and
the significance it has? ERIKO MIYAGAWA: Yeah. Here, Gin is planting
a seed for what historically become
Yoshiwara, which is an area in Edo, which is Tokyo. I guess it could be translated
as red light district. But it's a collection of tea
houses and sort of licensed, controlled, protected,
and taxed by Edo shogunate, Edo government. And that sort of p
rotection
allows for this culture that we now know most
famously for Geisha to really develop and to become refined. We pushed it a little bit on
the show, because I think, you know, in Sengoku
period, I think we chose to portray Kiku as-- and Gin, obviously--
as ahead of its time, and very forward-thinking
and sophisticated, which is something that happens,
you know, a little bit later. EMILY YOSHIDA: From
characters like Gin, who look to the future, to
Nagakado, who has his cut short, the mome
nts of our
show are often punctuated by music that speaks
to what's going on inside these characters' minds. LEOPOLD ROSS: I
think it was a lot about scoring the psychology of
scenes, rather than the action. EMILY YOSHIDA: Here to talk us
through the music of our series is Leopold Ross, who along with
Atticus Ross and Nick Chuba, composed the score for "Shogun." LEOPOLD ROSS: "Shogun"
is so much about what's unsaid, you know, and
reading between the lines of the conversation. So as the music, I
think one
of the main roles of the music is to kind of score what's
going on in someone's mind rather than what's coming
out of their mouths. EMILY YOSHIDA: I wanted to ask
just about the opening theme, because now I feel like I've
watched-- having watched as many episodes as
we've been through, I really have it in my head now. And I've been thinking a
lot about what it means, and kind of the construction of
it, because it really builds. We have this kind
of cyclical thing. And it really seems
t
o tell a story. Can you get into
that a little bit? LEOPOLD ROSS: Yeah. I mean, normally our
process is, when we sign on to do a project,
we will typically have a conversation with the
director or the showrunner, as we did. And we'll read the scripts. And we'll, you know, if they
have a bible or a look book, we'll kind of consume
that information. And then before
seeing any picture, we'll just write some ideas. And then we'll send them. In this case, we
sent it to Justin. And honestly, that was
one of those tracks. Like, we had never seen any
picture or anything like that. That was just something
that Nick had started, and then we developed
it together. But it was something
that Justin was really drawn to immediately. And he said, that's the theme. Just straight out of the
gate, he was like, this is it. And we changed the arrangement. And we got to a place where
I think it's an incredibly epic opening theme. And I think the visuals
are fantastic, as well. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. Yeah, it
has such a kind
of peaceful opening. And then I think every single
time the title itself comes up and there's that kind of wah
wah wah sound, I'm like, yes! That's such a great build. So we're talking
episode seven this week, which is the episode where
Toranaga's half-brother, Saeki, kind of basically has everybody
hostage while they have them over to try to get
him to join him for this Crimson Sky attack. LEOPOLD ROSS: It's
definitely a tipping point. Everyone's wavering
in their belief that To
ranaga knows
what he's doing. EMILY YOSHIDA: Which
up until this point, it's really felt like whether
he's fully showing his hand or not, Toranaga seems to
have the big game in his mind. And this is the first time it
feels like he really stumbles. Was there any kind
of specific change you wanted to have for this
turn of events or this sort of, this act of the story? LEOPOLD ROSS: The
most important thing with this particular
episode was, in a sense, matching like the visuals
are incredibly atmos
pheric. There's so much mist
going on from beginning to end in this episode. And a lot of it was about
what is the sound of the mist, you know what I mean? And it was sort of creating
that sound, and also creating this kind of growing sense
of dread as things unfold, because you know, I
think on the face of it, they're going to meet Saeki. That's his brother. Like, it shouldn't
be bad, necessarily. You'd think that our
heroes are safe there. But as we've come to understand
in the world of "Shogu
n," every man has his own agenda. And so it's sort of, like, about
having this sense of unease, I suppose, that grows
throughout the episode. EMILY YOSHIDA: Were
there any musical moments in episode seven
specifically that you remember really loving? LEOPOLD ROSS: I enjoyed
creating the section where-- I call it stories,
legends, and the truth, because that's what Saeki says. It's a long section. It kind of essentially
almost plays as a montage. But it starts when
they're all having dinner, and
Saeki says, hey,
Nagakado, what do you like? Stories, legends, or the truth? And I think the challenge
there was sort of, again, having this sort of growing
unease that sort of crossed different scenes that you have. Obviously, the dinner
scene, and then suddenly they're surrounded and the
guy comes in, and you know, it unfolds. Saeki's turning against them. Then we cut away to
Blackthorne and Mariko. Then we cut away to
Toranaga contemplating. There's a lot of
different scenes that this one pie
ce
of music covers. And it was sort of a lesson
in minimalism and simplicity, because it's really-- it's
not a musically dense cue. It's really more about just
this kind of insistent throb that goes on throughout
the whole thing. EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah, right. And it's this plot point
or sequence, I guess, that really changes our idea of
the kind of legend of Toranaga. So in this episode,
we obviously have this whole ending
sequence where Nagakado meets his untimely end. But I was wondering sort of
what your general philosophy was around action
sequences and how you kind of scored around the
movement and the action. LEOPOLD ROSS: There is a sort
of common thread in a lot of movies and TV to have a
consistent kind of thrumming, fast rhythm in action scenes. And Justin was very clear that
he did not want to do that, which is cool for us,
because we didn't necessarily want to do that either. So that took some
experimentation. And it really-- but it really
came together in the episode two, "S
hinobi Attack." That's something that Nick
actually put together. And it almost plays like
a horror cue, you know? EMILY YOSHIDA: Yeah. HIROYUKI SANADA: It's--
there's a lot of space. And it's just about
punctuating beats and then leaving the silence
in between so that you can kind
of feel the horror of what's actually going on. And the reason I bring
that up is because that was a direct influence,
when you look at the end of episode seven-- EMILY YOSHIDA: I
was gonna say, yeah. LEOPOLD ROSS: --
and Nagakado's-- that whole moment with
Nagakado and Saeki. It's grown from that moment. The end of episode
two kind of informed the way that we approached
action from that point onwards. And the end of episode
seven is a good example. [MUSIC PLAYING] EMILY YOSHIDA: That's
all for this week's episode of "Shogun-- The Official Podcast." Next week, what awaits
Toranaga in Osaka? Will the death of Nagakado
change his strategy? And how long are
his men going to be willing to follow him along
his see
mingly doomed path? Tune in next week,
when we discuss episode eight of FX's "Shogun." You can find a link in our
description to episodes 1 through 7 of "Shogun." And if you want to dive deeper
into the world of our story, check out The Official
Shogun Viewer's Guide. There's a link to that in
the show notes as well. Be sure to rate, review,
and follow "Shogun-- The Official Podcast,"
wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emily Yoshida, and
I'll see you next week.
Comments
The music of Shōgun doesn't just enhance the show — it adds an essential layer to it.
The way Toronaga yelled “don’t accept it!” to save his son makes the ending so tragic
That ending!?!??!?! This show is a masterpiece, and I'm NOT ready for it to end! I love Shōgun!
Nagakado shows us all the consequences of over eagerness, ambition untamed and unchecked is defeat by our own hand
Gin is inspired by Shoji Jinemon, Founder of Yoshiwara, his hometown is close to Izu. Tokugawa Ieyasu gave him approval to have red-light district in Edo.
Another phenomenal episode, great writing, high drama, betrayal, everything I love about this series.
The scene with Gin was fantastic also the scene with Mariko … I truly wish shogun had more episodes.. and I wish I could be part of this great masterpiece
With his son no longer needing saving, there's no need for him to sacrifice himself anymore
I love the opening theme, but it is great that each episode has a different ending theme. It fits each episode perfectly. And this time the ending theme was the sound of rain and insects. Japanese love to use the sound of rain and insects in their music and poetry. Fuji told Nagakado. “We do what we can, when we can. We can only hope it’s enough.” This ending was probably the result of his thinking about what he could do. Who could blame him? It was just love for his father. I felt that Nagakado's hope was expressed in the sound of the rain and the little insects at the ending.
The actor who plays Torunaga is a legend. The first moment i saw him in the show made me serious for what masterpiece im gonna watch. Top tier tv show, one of its kind. It could somehow develop as Vikings did
The way the episode ended took me by such a surprise, like my mouth was left wide open— hoping he was just unconscious but saddened when I saw the blood. It was so random, yet so well written.
Both the novel and the show are based on historical facts, but being entertainment, they also include direction. It is not a recreation of Japanese history at that time, It's a fictional character and story. But, the materials used(buildings,props,set-design,costumes,accessories,old-Japanese-language,characters'names,actions,spirit,sensibilities,morals,manners,etiquette,sound(music),etc…)are extremely realistic. Even if the story is fiction,Japanese people can enjoy it without spoil atmosphere because the material is realistic. I appreciate them.
The only show that give me the goosebumbs GoT gave me.
Gin was fantastic
One foreshadowed by his father, one foreshadowed by his brother .
There’s so much to say about this brilliant show, but I am so glad that whilst listening to this pod episode, I was thinking about how epic the opening theme tune is, you and the composer also started talking about the exact same thing. The synchronicity is real. Such a pleasure to be enjoying everything associated with this show. Thank you
I had a sneaking suspicion that Toranaga was willing to assassinate his brother to take back control, then Nagakado threw another wrench into the plan. Eagerly anticipating what comes next!
THE SURRENDER. This has to be one of the best scenes . John Blackthorn getting up and having a wobbler. with the risk of having his head removed by Buntaro. and the look from Tadanobu Asano. starting to like this character. great show cannot wait for the next episode. thanks
What an episode! Can't wait for the next three. Sorrow that ends. Now I know what will keep me company in the summer, along with the sun, the blinds and my friends. The book and the series over and over again.
Don’t want the show to end 🥲