FSR 3.1, RIP Consoles, Windows 10 Sub & More | The Full Nerd ep. 295

We're here talking about cameras, old cameras, classic cameras. I remember the first digital camera I ever saw. I had a friend. Sony, you put a floppy disk in. man. Muted again. I had I was like, wait, I had it. All right. Hello. On the Internet, we we are here. Will has not unmuted or muted his his laptop. It happens it happens here on the full nerd PC World podcast about PC hardware. Yeah you know, you're here we're just spinning up the wheels on this pre-show going to banter for a little bit.

They get the the the party started party. Yeah, this is going to be a good time but yeah, old cameras. Yeah it was a Sony I don't remember what their point and shoot line was. Malika. Well it was like this big and like this thick and it was, yeah, it was, I think it was like one megapixel or something, but like my friend had got it and paid like hundreds of dollars for it and I was a little jealous, but also not too jealous because it just wasn't great. So my first job out of college was managi

ng an image lab at a university and we got a digital camera and like 1990, probably eight or 99, and it was it was a one megapixel or 8.8 megapixel that you literally jammed a floppy disk in and it would take you for pictures on the floppy disk, Campbell into the floppy disk. And speaking of floppy disk, did you see the the cyberpunk, April Fools Day? No, I just didn't turn the internet on. Okay. Yeah. No, that. That was the best April Fools Day thing I saw was the the developers of Cyberpunk sa

id they were releasing a, a floppy disk version of Cyberpunk 2077. Like a wheelbarrow. Yeah. Just had like stacks of floppy disk is cute. Yeah, I don't like that. Imagine installing that a floppy. And then you have a problem Halfway through like 375 of 4000 gathered through the worst I was hoping for like the Jazz Drive edition of that Jazz Drive? Yeah. Wow. I think the first digital camera I saw was a it was actually an apple one. Do you remember that one? yeah. Yeah. I made a digital camera. Y

eah, it was. I think I still have it at work because it was it looked like a it looked like a it looked like Luke Skywalker's mac or binocular. Yeah. You're like, And I even did an impression, right, because it was like, I see, I see a couple of Panthers but I don't see any Sam people. Was it one of the early USB devices or was it one of those screwy Apple busses from the before times. What. FireWire 400. No, before FireWire. Even before it had a proprietary cable you plug into the camera itself

. It probably went into an ADB port because it was is it was likely pre USB, which I remember of course. And now we're just going to complain like old people now. But all of the Apple people that claim that Apple actually created USB, which is always the most hilarious. I mean Apple was the first to a lot of things. Yeah I know what you're talking about. They're they're known to be first. That's just what they're known for. We're we're not here to talk about cameras, though. We're talking about

computers, not food. Well, not food either. This is a special line and a will. yeah. Wilson's excited carpool did ask. Hey, Gordon, any egg McMuffins this year? You got anything you. No, I haven't. And also I think they're like $19 in California now, so I'm probably going to skip them for the foreseeable future. So it might be $25 to make your own. You got to go to Costco and buy like the gigantic pack of Thomas English muffins and then buy the gigantic pack sausage, I guess, legs or patties. I

have tried that, but it never works. Same with eggs. So you can cheat and do just like Jimmy Dean's frozen bag of them. But you know, was the secret of the Egg McMuffin is a base, not Thomas 0bci thought you were going to say it's the people who work there and you can just feel like their their negative energy leading through into the it's the McDonald's grease. Yeah. yeah, it is. Bring your own right, go to Costco, buy the ingredients and then just, you know, go behind the counter, go to the ki

tchen and just be like, Hey, I'm just going to make my own. Can you give me a bucket of your time? Can I get some grease? But yeah, you've got to cook the muffin in the in the sausage grease from when you cook the sausage. Yeah, that's right. Because you just put it. I wouldn't be surprised if McDonald's actually injects it with artificial flavor like they do with the fries. It's just salt and butter, I think probably. No, I mean, apparently they actually have a fry flavor that they imbue the fr

ies with, which is why their flavored fries are so slow. Right. It's McDonald's is about consistency because you could you could be in Antarctica and it will taste the same as, you know, New York City or Tokyo. So that's the whole point of McDonald's. And it's true. Look, I stopped eating McDonald's like 20 years ago when they stopped making cooking the fries in the beef tallow. Because because after that, they they've never been the same since. And it's because the liberals came in and were lik

e, hey, we can't beef tallow is bad for you. We're going to is partially hydrogenated oil. And they've been through 18 different kinds of oil and they're all bad. So I'm not I'm not I'm off McDonald's until the beef tallow bread he's not here. It's a little later in the day for him and yeah, he loves the McRib. That's is he's like die hard McRib. Guys, a rib had needs a rib head anywhere we should get to because the computer is because we got a lot of them. Yeah. So there's a lot talk about Will

Willis. Everything good on your in everything? Everything. Okay, Let's go here. Yeah, let's go with the intro. And I once again realized I did not write the intro out. So what will swing it? Well, what are we talking about? In this episode of The Full Nerd we talk about What should we talk about? Let's. We just talk about technology? Yeah. Okay. All right, here we go. All right, Go for in this episode of the Full Nerd, we talk about SSR 3.1, how consoles are dead, and a Windows ten subscription

. And welcome, everybody, to episode 295 of the full nerd PC World's premiere or podcast about PC building. I am your fill in host Adam Patrick Murray on the line. We have Gordon Mah Ung. Hello, Gordon, everybody. Welcome back for a second second week of of coming back on the show. Glad to have you on to be here and then here with Alaina Yee also on the line Hello Alaina. Hello. Close to episode 300, if you had don't remind me less than a month and change. Yeah, we have we have some plans brewin

g, but you know, not enough to do them. We will get there. We will get there. Right, Dr. Nathan? We can have him come sing. Yeah, well, yeah, that's perfect. Perfect. Here at the table with me is Will Smith. Hello, Will. hello. And then over at the vertical and horizontal is we got Willis Lai. Hello. Hello, everyone. Happy Wednesday. my God. We're doing it on a Wednesday this time. Yeah, Wednesday afternoon we had a schedule weirdness. So thanks everybody for, for working us with that before we

get into the news because we got some interesting news, I do want to give an update. Two weeks ago we talked about the missile claw and there were some weird charging stuff that I was talking about. I did meet with them and got the actual lowdown on what's going on with charging that device. It's kind of an interesting situation. It's not as as dire as I thought. Maybe maybe dire is not the right word, but it's not as complicated as I thought. So the the idea is if you charge if you plug in the

missile claw at anything below 90% or over 90% of battery life, it won't actively charge it. It just put batteries. Yeah. So it powers the device if it's, if it's already 90% or over, it just passes through the power and doesn't actually actually actively charge the battery. If it's below 90%, then it'll actually charge the battery up until 100%. So but if you disconnect it 90% and it won't charge again. So I think that's the problem is that we talked about before. I'd like to have mine plugged

in for the most part. And so it was always tripping me out that most of the time I had it plugged into the wall and I was like, I'm not getting the charging indicator, though weirdly, some chargers were still charging it even when it was above 90, so there's still some wonkiness there. I'm not quite sure. I like I like that idea of battery preservation. Right. It seems a little aggressive rather than like a toggle or something to to pick, which you would rather have. I did ask like, hey, are the

re any other MSA devices that do this? Because I'm not like, I feel like people would be angry if like Apple or, you know, whatever, decided to institute that on a phone. Well, it's a choice on the phone. Like the iPhone. Yeah, we'll have a little switch you can flip to say, hey, charge charge. Alternatively to preserve battery life kind of. But here it's not a choice. It's it's on by default. It doesn't seem to be a way to to turn it off. So, yeah, that seems like a bad choice to me. I mean, ye

ah, I just told them, like they put a choice in there. That's, you know, that's probably the best. Yeah. But I mean, they're, they're making the decision for the person to preserve battery life. There are some devices that will actually charge to 90 has max. But tell you it's 100% to make you think it's 100% it's all so yeah and you know I mean we don't want to get into battery nerd ism here, but nerd, it's interesting that for the most part, we were told that with lithium ion lithium polymer, 1

00% was no problem. You keep these things plugged in all the time. You know, they're intelligent, they've got all these circuits in them. But now it's really people are like, well, you really shouldn't keep it at 100% because that puts more stress on the battery. So keeping it below that is is better. So I just don't sometimes the battery industry is like not straight with pills like the thing that I want on something that's a potential portable that I'm going to take with me and like could take

out an airplane is that I'm fine with it. Doing the conservative charging when I'm just going around the house and sitting in the living room playing drag it dogma or whatever. When I get on the when I'm getting ready, go on a trip, I won't be able to hit a button that says, Hey, charges to 100%. So it's ready when I leave because if I get on the plane, I'm going to be bummed if I don't have the full charge right? True. So anyway, do you want to give a, kind of a follow up on that? Because that

was definitely some it was confusing me at the time of launch. So got some clarification on that. Hopefully that that helps some others. But let's dive in to the first topic today, which we were talking about, AMD's FSR 3.1, I believe this got announced at GDC, but last last week we didn't have a normal episode yet, so we're covering it now. We're we're coming a little late to it. Not a ton to dig in here, but there's some high level stuff which is interesting. And honestly, though, I'm glad th

at that all of these companies, you know, Intel with access AMD, with FSR and NVIDIA with Deal says they continue to improve on it, which is nice and depends on on what people think. Some people don't like upscaling or frame Janna and stuff like that, but it is here to stay. It is a future. Games are obviously implementing it, so I think it's nice. Specifically in FSR 3.1, there's two two major things. One of them is that they have added a native AA mode. This is essentially, adding using the te

mporal information to just apply an AA rather than upscale. Right. Is that, is that the best? That's great. That's my understanding. Yeah. It's temporal. AA is always been on the things. It's a little conceptually weird to me because it's going from frame to frame and somehow they're looking a frame into the future sometimes and, and D blurring your or blurring your edges based on that. But, but I think I think that's the, the bears theoretically should offer better quality but you don't usually

don't get that performance boost because it's not actually rendering at a low resolution and upscaling is just applying. Well so in this case, the benefit is that you get fewer charges, but instead of having to upscale and then shrink back down, you're just using frame to frame information rather than, you know, making making four times as many frames and then condensing those for pixels into sort of four times bigger frames that condensing four pixels into one on the jagged edges. So that seem

s good. What about feature? And then the other one is decoupling upscaling with frame generation. So in the past, if you were going to use FSR as frame generation, which is AM and am SVM No. CM FDM but I don't remember it. Fluid Motion frame Yeah, whatever the acronym is. So in the past, if you wanted to use the fluid motion frames frame generation, you had to also have the upscaling, some amount of upscaling, but, but FSR specifically. So now it is decoupled so that you can use the frame genera

tion part of AMD and then say maybe you wanted to use the deal, assess upscaling of of envy or something like that. So it's a little more mix and match rather than just being locked into the, the AMD. And so this is coming, there's a bunch of games to support FSR three now only 20 or 30 titles or something. This is going to roll out first in the ratchet clank Ps5 game port. Yep. I think later this year the no time typo on it and they're saying FSR 3.1 will be available in 40 games. Both are avai

lable now and coming soon. That's coming from AMD. We have a link to this article in description of Bullet in. The nice thing is it's still hardware agnostic, right? So it still runs on Nvidia AMD and intel, right? Yeah. Seems good. Yeah. Did they say why they decoupled it though? Because it seems a little odd. Because I know AMD is always the one that tries to play nice because the market position they're in, but it does seem like they're decoupling it and they're saying, you can use this with

deal assets or access Intel's, you know, from generation A does seem like. Are you saying you don't think people want to use your solution only you know I'm wondering if you if you get the feeling that's what they're they're sort of saying with this to me it seemed like there was there there are situations where you might have a game that's performant enough that you don't need to use the upscaling, but you may want the frame generation to reduce micro stutters because that's kind of the that's

the that's the place that the micro that the frame generation helps. So or or if you're on an intel based device and you would actually prefer access as the upscaling solution. But as of right now Intel does not have a frame generation equivalent. So yeah, because the XT doesn't use, it uses tensor cores or whatever their, their eml cores are. Yeah. The FSR runs on the GPU side. Well and do lose. There is two different versions access so once for Intel specifically you get the the better version

and then if you're on something else. So I mean I like it I don't I don't see it I mean I didn't talk specifically with AMD about this. This article was written by Mark. I don't know if he talked to them either specifically about why, but if I had to guess, I bet his choice maybe the developer implementation, you know, like it. Yeah, it just, it just feels like it's it's also weird to have companies be so nice, you know? I mean, they've always been AMD has always been 80 in that AMD you've alwa

ys been on the hey, let's support the open standards rather than thing. My guess is that this is also this will also roll up into the Xbox that they're upscaling implementations on the on the consoles at some point. Right but I that's why I would think you'd want to play into that you have this console they have the strength of consoles why why sort of help your competitors in a way so but but I mean if you if you think about it, what you're also competing for is developer time, right? So it's i

t's to implement each of these plug ins. The deal is to actually extend the FSR plugins. You're looking at minimum of a half a day of like probably one of your more valuable engineers each and it increases the testing surface because you then you have to test one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight pipelines. So if they can say, hey, look, here's here's our one solution that gives you good results and supports Nvidia Intel AMD hardware across the board and also will give you this upscalin

g on your console side as well. Then then that's an easier like that's I'm looking at that I'm thinking this is this we give them the expensive guy for an afternoon and we're done or maybe a day and we're done versus you know, a week, week of time, plus a bunch of extra testing each time you do a release. So like, I don't know, to me, this is a this is them marketing this at developers, not them marketing this to consumers. You know, they're also, you know, stating that they're they're improving

the temporal stability and reducing ghosting, you know, which is shimmering and all that kind of stuff. So they are doing work on it. I think obviously a lot of people there's that fight between DFACS and FSR, but I'm glad both exist exist and like Amed continues to to improve on it. I think next then is a lot of people are still wondering where the the latency reduction the anti like plus is after releasing and then the unruly saying and saying they're going to release it again it still isn't

quite out yet so. Well yeah something can be done with the reflex really makes a difference on the high end competitive stuff. I think it's less important for the for the Singleplayer games. I mean especially when you're using a frame generally though to like a Yeah, yeah. Or if you like a gamepad. Frankly I think, I think some people say, yeah, that's FSR 3.1 There's not a tiny question. One more question, No, go for it. Do you think we're over the anger the original because remember deal says

Nvidia push really, really hard and Gale says that initially a lot of gamers predictably were very angry like, this is ridiculous. A real frame. These are these are fake frames. Everybody called them fake frames. It seems like we're now well past that. People have accepted it. And because now people are like, you know, AMD needs to work on FSR, they need to get as good as you know, DLR says. And it's interesting, we've shifted away from gamers saying, I don't want this, I want real frames too. N

ow everybody needs to be as good as X or do this. So now it feels like it's just another image quality performance slider like any of the, you know, filtering that we've come to accept as a just part of of games graphics. Do you think we're at that point or no we'll say real quick to be fair deals this one and FSR one both definitely had some problems So yeah like yeah, I mean but you know it took some time but it does, it does feel like people aren't as angry about the upscaling options. And I'

ve, I mean, at least tangentially, I've heard on Discord people are like, yeah, you know, I usually turn on if I have the option, I'll turn on the highest quality just so I get a, you know, like that benefit kind of thing. So I will say I was I'm in a discord with a bunch of people who are game developers and X journalists and stuff like that. And there was a whole conversation that was like, Hey, why does Dragon stock look like crap? And the end result was they defaulted. One of the upscaling i

s on for everyone and they were like, it's on performance upscaling. And I'm running a tiny display and it looks real bad. So I think I think people are upset about it. I don't think, I don't think I think it's I think it's impacting normals now, not the people who like to hop on the outrage. Pony Probably. But I do think on the other end, there are still people who really don't like frame generation. I still think we're early enough days and frame generation that people are like, Yeah, I mean,

honestly, I am one of them. Yeah. Like I don't I don't actively use it. No, not that I don't think it's cool technology. It just yeah, I would prefer not to right now. The only place I've turned it on is with Cyberpunk. When I have all the path tracing and everything turned up as high as it can go. And I want to, you know, get a playable 60 out of that. Yeah. I mean it's, it's for Adam though. Real quick though, do you choose not to use it because you don't like it or because you don't need to.

Is you on pretty good hardware? Well, yeah, it depends. It's both like the Allen week. So I recently finally beat Allen Week two. I love that game, but I was turned on all the bells and whistles and you know, dealing with whatever frame rates were coming in over the course of playing it. I was kind of tuning it in and I was playing with FSR implementation on that one, which I would say is probably one of the better implementations because they work directly within video about it, but especially

narrow glasses. Deal. So sorry. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. From generation the four because I have an Nvidia card to my gaming machine and like I didn't like the image quality of it in in certain areas, especially in the forest like it was. I'm a bells and whistles guy. I like image above frame rate in a lot of situations, especially in like Alan Wake like I was willing to take a frame rate hit to get all the the pretty visuals and the the frame generation in that just wasn't like it was impacting the v

isuals too much per Island week. I'll take 40 hertz real over 60 or 80 hertz. And yeah, that's what I was doing too on the on the other end though, I don't know, maybe because I'm a video person, it's still like interject it like the idea of interjecting frames that that weren't actually rendered. I know because like, I don't turn on motion smoothing on my TV. Why would I turn it on in the game? But I know that it's not the same thing. I know it's not the same thing, but it's still in my mind. T

hose two things are a little too linked. And so I'm I know it's something I'm the problem. I'm trying to get over it. But yeah, to me those are like ray tracing and frame generation go hand-in-hand and I don't think I would turn on frame generation in a non retraced game because retraced frames are all made up and kind of kind of B.S. to, you know, like they're doing math, but it's like they're they're doing math. That implies other math that fills in the math. And then they upscaled those gener

ated frames. And then so if you're upscaled, if you're doing all that kind of if you have this sequence of events, why not? Why not cap it off with make it up a couple of imaginary frames in the middle to get it up to where you want it to be. Well, I will point out what Falcon Northwest said. Hey. Hey, Kel fucking Northwestern earlier said All game, all frames are imaginary. He's wrong. I'm wrong. And it's true. I mean, that's why I never quite understood the outrage. Pony writing when frame jer

k friend generation came out. Yeah, I understand. It wasn't the greatest when it came out. And yeah, it may not be your cup of tea, but it was. It felt like the yeah, the shouting was unrealistic because everything is made up. You're not like you're looking at reality right there on your screen. Every single pixel is is math just putting a pixel somewhere, right? So why is some math better than other math? Some math better than the other math? Just seems silly, right? I just. I just don't. You d

on't like it. Don't. Don't run it. You know, to me, it just it seemed like the easy choice. Now, if they didn't give us the option of turning it off, I'd be righteously outraged. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great thing, right? Yeah. You don't need to use it if you know why. Get angry about something that you don't need to use. So. Yeah. Yes. Give us the freedom of PC. The freedom and chaos of of of game configurations speaking. Speaking of the freedom of the PC. my. here Segway. I think you jus

t need me up. You just what what is it like a I don't know. I'm not a volleyball person. You hold your hands like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And spike it. And spike, where are we talking about? yeah. You know, I'm. I'm ready to. To sit here and turn on motion smoothing. your TV's okay. And proclaim something that Alina pointed out yesterday when we were talking about this. We've we've actually had this was some form of some form of this name in our title many times over the course consoles, right?

Yeah. Yeah. The consoles are dead, you know, whatever. But I think now, now more than ever, I am okay to sit here, look straight into the camera. Dead, dead in the eyes of the public and say consoles are dead. Not. Not. Yeah. Official policy of everyone. Tell us what happens. Direct your angry letters to what's your Twitter again? Adam Murray I don't really check them. I should go for it. Yeah. So, yeah, this, this got sparked. There was an interview over Polygon who conducted Interview Crisp p

lant plant plant, plant, plant. He's the founder of Polygon. Had a chat with Phil Spencer. You know, Phil Spencer is the head of Xbox. No, no, he's he's the head of gaming at Microsoft, right? Yeah. Isn't he even higher than that? I can't remember. Anyway, he's the new Jay Allard, a pretty straightforward guy. I feel like, you know, you can trust what he says and he is an actual gamer in the the weeds of things. So. And he was talking about the console market. Right. Obviously, there's a lot of

talk about the Xbox, where it's going in the future. It's in third place. Is it dying or are they going to get rid of a console game? They are making consoles and just become a publisher, whatever. A lot of that we didn't bring up here because it's not really our thing. But in this in this thing, in this interview specifically, they were talking about Phil was saying, Hey, wouldn't it be awesome if the console had the ability to buy games from different storefronts? I think that that's the kind

of thing I would say if I was selling a console that was solidly in third place. But also, you know, he he's saying he's saying something good for the consumer, though. Yeah, that's exactly what you do when you're like. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so like, but that's not a bad thing. I would say they're in a spot where they need to to do some good things and shake stuff up. And if it's good for them and it's also good for the consumer, that's awesome. But I was looking at I was like, Wait, wait, o

kay, up to this point we already have off the shelf PC hardware in these. I know it's configured and, you know, like a custom solution, whatever. But I mean, we're still talking about, you know, essentially PC components in these devices, right now more than ever, especially on the Sony side, all these games are getting ported to PC, right? So like exclusives on consoles is like barely a thing. Yeah, talk about it if then we're talking about opening it up to having any sort of storefront you wan

t on a console. Yeah. At what point do we just say that's just the PC? And guess what? Consoles are dead Xbox. So. So here's the thing. Okay, let's, let's like, like what? You can plug in a mouse and keyboard into a console now like where where is that point to say, hey, you know what? That thing under my box is just a mini small form factor. PC Here, you know, like a system. What operating system is that will know my Steve my steam deck. I've got Linux. So you know what I mean is like how, how

like not just the operating system but how it's configured, how open or closed is it? I mean, this seems pretty damn open if you can if you can use a storefront from anywhere, what would you say? No, that's not true, because they could plug it in in a specific way, but it allows access just like how they had connections to the Ubisoft club stuff, you know what I mean? So I'm guessing they work with the publisher to have some kind of API where they can plug into the system, doesn't that I mean, t

o open up the operating system and allowing people to just do whatever they want with it, which I think is a key factor of being on PC Well, guess what? We've already been there. The PS3 allowed you to install Linux on it for about 15 minutes, so there was a separate. But that's separate. That's like that's, that's different. Yeah. So wait, wait, wait. So you're saying the only dividing line like, like really everything. Everyone's just getting hung up like the, you know, on, on the idea of, thi

s is a console, it's a PC that's the line is the operating system is running. So no, no, I would say I would say it's the only line, but I think that is the defining one of the defining features of it. Like you cross that line, then that's when you can really say it's become a PC. The thing that makes it a console is that the person who makes the heart, the company that makes the hardware says what you can and can't run on it right. And that's an operate it's a function of operating system. Yeah

. But what Phil is saying is, hey, if Epic wants to give us a cut of every sale, then we're happy to put their software on our platform, which is exactly what I would say if I had a flagging console with no exclusives coming like Sony is over here with like, Hey, we've got a bunch of games people want to play, we're going to put them on other platforms where we can make extra money, but we've already squeezed also, even they are having some trouble, you know? Yes, they're for PlayStation one thi

s round, but that doesn't mean the console. I mean, like he also says in here, they hate the console market is is stagnant. PC is growing. Let me what gear are we in this console cycle at this point we're four years into a seven year cycle. This happens every single time the consoles come out. There's a big rush. People buying when they're expensive, then they're like, man, we've got to do a price drop. So people keep buying them. They haven't done a price drop yet. This, it sounds like that can

happen with the Xbox One. It happened with the Xbox 360. It happened. It happens every single time. And we're always as an industry, the games industry was like, my God, we're in the middle of the console cycle and people are buying as many games are consoles. And then we lay a bunch of people off and everything goes to bad places for a little bit and then new consoles come out and there's a huge spike and it happens. It has happened. I mean, Gordon and I feel like Gordon and I have had this co

nversation at least three other times over the last two decades. I know, but usually, usually when Gordon talks about, he talks about how, the console is here to kill the PC. And I would say if you step back and look at it now more than ever, a console is just a damn PC and we and PCs have one. Wait, wait. I know, I know. I know what we're missing. You know, the operating system part of it. But but that's a component. There's a huge component of that. I don't get been ignored this whole cycle. H

ow much would you say, what, 10% to 24 litmus tests that Gordon is always you and Gordon is right here so he can either back me up or just keep nodding. But can you do taxes? Can you do taxes on that council? Yeah, you pay you can get TurboTax for like it's edge as a window browser and yeah, yeah, we've argued that. We've argued that. Yes. But can you do it as a in a full fledged manner yet. I mean you can do a slow, more, less efficient, more slowly, but you can still do it. What if we just did

n't do taxes? So that's my question. That's a good point, Gordon, But here I will kick it to Gordon. Gordon, you've always said the console is has been trying to kill the PC. Do you agree with me that actually the other way is, is what's happened? You mean that the PC has has gotten its revenge and crush consoles. Yes. Yeah, I would agree. I mean I was just looking at numbers the other day and Mobile's huge number two is PC gaming consoles are somewhere you know, third third place. It's not look

ing great for consoles, I would say. You know, the openness of the PC is what has always been awesome about it. And the custom customization. It's a battle that I didn't I don't think I've ever thought we would lose as long as everybody kept fighting. That means AMD, Nvidia, Intel and everybody continuing to put out new hardware to make it better and faster and prettier and all the vendors making better computers that you know but I, I it is, it is confusing to me how X-Box has it feels like Xbo

x has lost more than it's ever worn and I don't I don't understand it and I it's so that's a whole different discussion too but yeah like well but they're the fact that they're like honestly, when you said it the other day that you thought consoles were dead, I didn't I didn't agree because for one thing, I can tell you probably in about 5000 years, Nintendo will still be around selling consoles that you can only run their games on. So I guess in some ways it will always exist. It's just surpris

ing to me that it's always felt like Xbox has has lost to PlayStation. And I don't know, maybe it's just my memory of it because I don't follow consoles that closely and they have tried to kill us. Let's let's be honest, the reason why I've always been so agnostic against consoles is because they wanted to kill PC gaming, because they wanted to push consoles, because there was a lot of money in play. Hold on. Agnostic is not the word I would use. Okay, hold on. I mean, I haven't just given just

the language. I haven't just the language changed. But like, there's a difference between a product existing and then a set of makers of that product actively trying to eliminate any potential competition. Like I feel like you're conflating the two. I do not feel like consoles have ever come that hard for the PC, not from the Mac, not from the makers themselves, from the fanboys for sure, but not from the makers. Microsoft is well established for having each division at war internally with every

other division like that is right. That is a longstanding thing. I don't think Sony cares about the PC. I think Sony has actually, I think they do now ambivalent to enthusiastic about the PC because it gives them an opportunity to sell $200 Million developer cost games to a whole new market. But but but yeah I think I think Microsoft there were people at Microsoft who when they launched the original Xbox and especially the 360 were coming at the PC hard. Now there were also people at Xbox. It w

as 20 years ago, guys, we're very old. I know. Ten years ago spoiled me, right? It was right in the chest. But I mean, I've totally forgotten about that. It's cool now. It's cool now. You know, I'm not going to forget that I have a hole in my chest, right? It's just like it just don't. But. But at the same time, without those same people, like there were also people in the Windows Division fighting with the Xbox, people that were like, Hey, we should make a standard for the game pad and maybe ke

ep doing direct X and, and like so out of that war came something good, right? Like without the gamepad support, like think about how nice universal gamepad support is and that all came out of three six generation Microsoft right. Yeah No I mean it definitely there I mean I won't say that there weren't good things that came out of the division that benefit ABC but they're they clearly wanted they wanted the PC gaming to go away in favor of increasing revenue for Xbox in the beginning. So that wa

s that was an original business model of of Xbox. Right. That's just not. Yeah and look let's be honest it was a direct Xbox right. That's what the access from its built on it was built on PC technology. So there are a lot of hard feelings from 20 years ago that are still there. So it's it's not made up alone. It's not made it. But it was real thing. So and I would also say traditionally in the past a console it would be a leapfrog thing, right? A new console would come out and be better than th

e pieces of the day because of whatever reason. And then, you know, PCs would catch up. I would say now more than ever, that's not really the case anymore. My $4,000 PC really romps by $500. Ps5. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the other thing though. I really thought, you know, because remember like many years ago, you know, they, they agreed, hey, you know, Microsoft was they were friendly toward they realized that what you know PC how great PC gaming was and they really sort of made peace betwee

n divisions publicly and everything. And I thought that was going to change things for the better and actually make it harder on on PlayStation. But it's it's interesting the it's come around. It feels like it's it's actually gone the other way that it's benefited PlayStation because they they just they haven't made Xbox as a they haven't worked on Xbox as competitively as they could have. It feels like I mean, I think once again, Microsoft definitely dropped the ball in a lot of ways for the Xb

ox that the PlayStation didn't necessarily need to. I mean, stop them too hard, I think. But we can all agree. I can even agree. Hey, you know, for the most part, consoles are dead except for Nintendo. I don't agree with anything. I don't agree with that at all. Nintendo quit. Quit trying to speak for of us and also don't know anything about let me put it another way. You said the defining factor of a console is a closed ecosystem. All right. I did say that you said that or I said the manufactur

er determines what goes on. Right? Okay. Yeah, well, that's what it comes down. Yeah, over time. Whoa, whoa. I'm clarifying here. I'm just saying that I am saying pretty much what you will is saying. I'm focusing on the technical aspects of it, but will as got the I would say, the more proper general summary of it. And and what I'm saying is that apart from Nintendo because yes, Nintendo is going to exist in 100 years and still be as closed and controlling as ever, which for better or worse, jus

t like Apple, right. But when you're talking about PlayStation and Xbox over time, have they gotten more open or less open, more more of an open ecosystem, more the more closed of an ecosystem, much more open. So that's what I would say. They're moving towards PC now more than ever. But on that spectrum. But that doesn't mean consoles are dead. That means the definition of that, the definition of consoles changes to be a PC. Know what I mean? That's operating in a really, really black and white

Germ stared. But like, I just I just don't understand like. Like why people still think it's a console when almost everything about it is just a PC except for the it is not it is not, though it's really not because you don't have to do the same level of maintenance or support or anything like you do. You still have to pay its games? No, I've got to say things like like, it is no different than you say, like in the preshow, like we were talking about tablets and PCs is no different than you speak

ing. The same. A similar statement of saying that tablets are just PC. They're not like Apple tried to say it was the they they also you know you can you can upgrade your console just as much as you can upgrade in an Apple laptop or I mean show me or waiting for you I'm just saying I'm just saying like like why why why is it just a console atom woke up this morning and chose violence. That's all I'm saying. Like. Like why? Why is everyone so tied to. no, it needs to be a console. This is not a P

C like that one who's tied to this. I know it feels like people are holding on to the definition of a console like old so dearly. And I'm saying, Hey, guess what? It's that's pretty much a PC look like if you don't slam a cartridge in the top, it's not a console. But there's also people angry like, man, my games my, my console games. Now graphical settings, why should I go in there? I don't want it to have graphical settings. I just wanted to play and it's like, well, because it's just a PC dude

. But Adam you're it's like for you that you've really made the distinction for yourself and that's fine. But it doesn't mean that everyone else can't have a different opinion in a larger, mature TV that we've got, right? It just doesn't make sense to me. Like, like how, how could somebody look at that and be like, this is this is way different. This is not a P.C., This is not where we're explaining it to you. It's the difference between us explaining to you and you being I see us explain to you

and say, no, I don't know. You're explaining it to me, but you're talking about the difference, the inherent difference is one part of it. If you're saying, hey, it's off the shelf parts, it's got an open ecosystem potentially, can you know how to have a lot of different launchers, all these things that make it just like a PC. But yeah, it's got one component that doesn't make it like a full open operating system. I get that. But like, like I feel like the rest of it takes that to fundamentally

changes the experience of it. Like not to get weird about this, but like, we're both human. But your construct in a different way than I am, right? Like you can't say that you have exactly the same experience that I do in life. I have those, right? Okay. Well, here's the other thing. I also I also wonder, say, say Microsoft does it feels they're in this such in this position. Right. And I do feel like this is a win win situation for them because they're getting attacked from all sides. PlayStat

ion. They're getting attacked on handhelds, you know, with the with the windows stuff like everybody. I mean, we're going to talk about a Windows problem in the next segment. So they're getting attacked from all sides. So they need they need some goodwill. And, you know, I do I don't think Phil is just going out on a limb and and saying these things. Right. Like he seems like a stand up dude that's like this is something they're exploring. They wouldn't just be saying this if they like. Although

to me, this felt like, hey, you know what would be cool? That would get some good press that I can say without having anybody on board with because like, why is Epic going to give them a cut when they don't have to? But it's not like they have a huge market to buy games. They have a huge market of people that sign up for game pass. So so what if, what if, say, they keep going down this road and whatever the next Xbox is or or okay, sorry. Here's another way to say it. A lot of people are saying

, hey, Microsoft needs to make a handheld friendly OS, whether it's either a stripped down version of what Windows is now or maybe some sort of like front end that you would load into. What if that same exact thing say say it was like the steam deck, Right. The steam deck Like, I think what people love about the steam deck is like it has a console like experience on the front end. But if you want to, you can go into Linux and go into a deeper experience. Nobody wants that. I mean, I mean, people

want people want the steam deck. They don't want to go into the Linux experience. That's only weirdos like me. Yeah, no, but I'm saying, what if Microsoft does make that? Yeah, you know, they see, hey, Windows handhelds are such a big thing. Okay, we should address this market. We're going to make some sort of front end, just like steam deck that. Hey, if you want to go into windows a little bit deeper, you can do that. And what if they just released that on on the set top box on a console as w

ell? Hey, you've got this front end, but it's just an easy to use experience. But if you want to go into the deeper windows in there, is that that point is at that point a PC? I don't think it matters. I mean, we are we arguing what is or what could be like? This argument feels like it's all over the place. Yeah. Like I want to go ahead. no, go ahead, Gordon. I was just going to say that I think this is just Kabuki theater. I think, frankly, that if you if you want to ask me, I don't think conso

les are dead. And, you know, I've never been friends of the console because, you know, again, they've been trying to stab us repeatedly for decades. They they and they have because that's that's the way it is with competitors. I remember when the Xbox One almost killed Gordon, it fell off the shelf in the last don't I? I honestly think you said that Microsoft has is looked at the future and they have looked at where it's going with government interventions. And the government clearly does not li

ke closed markets. They do not like monopolistic controls over ecosystems. So Microsoft being in third place and frankly is making so much money off of Azure, off of AI and so many things that client business, which is Windows and Xbox, it's becoming the amount of money they made when they used to make Microsoft mice. And why not? Why not push an open, open world? Because, look, we the Xbox will be open and we want to make it open because we believe in openness. And that always gets regulators.

Because in my Microsoft, as you know, has had a lot of fun with the United States government in the past. This is their way of saying we're going to be open. Look, we're allowing Epic, we're allowing steam, we're allowing all these third party game fronts into Xbox, and that keeps the regulators away. And it also puts pressure on competitors to be open and they would rather have the EU and the United States, DOJ and FTC all digging into apples and Google business, not digging into their business

, even though clearly Microsoft's strength is in in data center. Right. They love it. Yeah, it looks but it looks wonderful to look like, we're open. But, you know, they sure as hell don't want to be that way with everything because that's not the way it is with business. But you do it on things that you don't care about, which is basically Windows and Xbox at this point where they can be as open as they want. So I think this is just part of a long term strategic play. So you're saying they're w

illing to cede the Xbox in order to take out the ultimate closed ecosystem, which was Amazon's IWC and Google's g-cloud so that they can so that because like it's a good point, like all those cloud apps are not portable at all unless you explicitly designed them to be. And then if you design them to be that way, they're really a lot more expensive to run. Whereas if you build directly into Apple's and or Amazon's and Google's and Microsoft's ecosystems for that stuff, I, I think I agree with Gor

don on the CIO because they don't care It's this is like pennies at this point Xbox is well game pass makes money right nothing I mean does it I don't know if it does because I even if they but the amount of money they make off of game pass versus Azure. Yeah. No. Azure Azure as well as I mean there's just so many Microsoft 365. Yeah. There's so much they're making so much money off of you know datacenter cloud that it doesn't even matter and they just are, they're using this as a, as a way to t

rick the government to stay away from them. Like please, please go and get all into Apple. What I can't say the S-word all day. Look how terrible they are if we just open up Xbox stuff, right. Yeah, that's my prediction because that does mean they're going to give up. They still like the money. They've already they've invested a two decades into building up the Xbox. But I just don't feel like, you know, it's not a big deal. It's like they care about as much about Xbox as let's be honest, they c

are about Windows client for consumers. Right. But if you want to argue this honestly, yeah. If you want to argue that consoles are dying because like the kids are all interested in PCs and handhelds, which is I think I mean there were some reports to that, to that, to that specifically to I mean, yes, kids love PC, kids love PCs. Yeah. Coming out during GDC. Like, I think you can make that argument if you can make if you make the argument that we're going to be in a world where there's no conso

le exclusives because neither Microsoft nor Sony are making games that are exclusive to their hardware, I think that's a fair argument. I mean, tendency to keep doing what Nintendo does indefinitely, but that's fine. Well, the point I'm saying here, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we look at where we've come so far, we've gone further and further towards a PC, Right. And I don't think it's going to stop, you know, because of regulation, because of just the way the market is cha

nging. I would also say disks, you know, like reliance on disks. Everybody wants to go digital, which is again, like the PC. But I think we're going to continue to go that way. The wind is not blowing the other way. The wind is blowing this way. So, yes, I'm extrapolating, but at some point people need to say, you know, like except like, wait at what point does just it's just just everything's a PC. I'm I watch my car so much like I'm going to happen though atom for like four weeks. The thing is

that you're your drawing you're projecting into the future. I see where you're going with it, but at the same time, I think a lot of it has to do with just the nature of the environment. Not necessarily because they're just throwing in the towel. And so with that in mind, there's always there's always going to be a line that they're not going to cross and it's going to be something what we'll just said, where it's actual market demand that kills it, not because they've just become something els

e entirely and folded into they all this, all this, all those squares have become rectangles. Okay. Okay. Okay. So maybe, maybe I need to to explain this because I'm not saying there will never be boxes under TVs. I'm not saying consoles are dead. That I'm saying like the definition of a console, Like there's still going to be stuff on TV, but at some point we just call it PCs like, you know, But the thing is, the the thing is, even as Microsoft opens up the Xbox to the epic store in each and al

l the other stores that feel like throughout casually in a very constructive and intentional way they're still going to they're still going to regulate what software runs under those stores and what's sold from those stores. It's not like I'm going to be able to upload my game to Edge and it's just going to magically be on the Xbox. They tried that. They did it for the entire Xbox One generation. It was me, loved it, and there were a bunch of games that were game release regulations. WAY Are you

saying are you saying the regulation on these stores? Have you been on the storefronts? I have it on the storefront. It's pretty crazy. You still have to go through and beside that like having that look, having looked down the long end of a microsoft certification process before it, it is a non-trivial amount of work and they're not going to throw that away because that's that is the key differentiating thing. Hey, the game. So you're saying that's that's another that's an effort another cross

the definition of console. It's they're getting what it can run on the platform that's always that's always what it is It's always a walled garden. It's just like phones or I mean except for your Android phone, which is you can run whatever while or if you're in the EU, I guess whatever, Wild West of your phone, I mean, but you got to break it. Yeah. Also I would say it's less of an apple kind of walled garden because like you're talking about like allowing maybe like 2% of games that you should

n't allow on there, but it's essentially allowing 98% of games. You know, so very little difference for my perspective between Apple and Xbox at this point. You know, I'm going to return to old, old form Gordon. And I will say I do agree that PC has one right. And it is actually a surprise. But I and I and when I look back at this because, you know, you will you and I have been watching this space for a long, long, long time. I didn't think we were going to get to the point where PCs were so pop

ular. I know I've said this before and there are people on the show that would not agree with me, but if you're cool, you play games on a PC. I just don't think there are some things that consoles are great out, you know, sitting in front of the the big ass TV is the one thing that we have never cracked for the PC. But my Blu ray bowser. But most gaming that kids want is to sit in front of their wraparound led panel with the with the with the desktop PC that has 5 million, you know, rugby fans a

nd lights in it with with the mic that glows and they look like their favorite streamer because that's every single streamer sits in front of you know a gaming PC with the rugby and the lights and back. And that's what they kind of want to emulate. I so I do think surprisingly the PC has won and largely that is due to the streaming crowd. The younger the younger kids, they want to they want to be like their streamers and the streamers for the most part they play on PC. Right? Shout out to twitch

. Yeah, well, Twitch really. Hold on, hold on though. Play wrong. See? And that's it. Wait, no, I'm just saying I feel like there's a couple of, like, like different threads here that are getting intertwined because I don't disagree that the PC is dominant. However, a lot of those numbers include hardware, but it's not a wrap around that panel that is not even a mid-tier chip. We are talking a lot of people in the world are gaming on PCs where they are a couple of generations behind what we talk

about on the show. So and why aren't they playing on consoles? Leena I'm me finish. So given that I don't think you can extrapolate saying that it's because the kids are all wanting to emulate their favorite streamer. So I would be interested in seeing the numbers that show it broken down by region because I think what's popular in the United and what's driving it here or even in other countries that have more, you know, disposable income is going to be different than other regions of the world

where it is still PC dominant. But it's not necessarily that they're having, you know, 15 different rugby fans running in their system. Yeah, no, I agree with you because there are different markets developing, you know, nations where they don't have disposable income. But I would say it's still that that doesn't stop those kids from dreaming about having the big ass old panel or there's like a Samsung G9 that's only 1100 dollars. Somebody loaned me 1100 dollars. I won't pay it back. But I was.

Yeah, but I mean, I saw those this weekend. It's majestic. It's like looking at the sun, right? It's 1100 dollars. It's like I've had cars that were like. I mean, I wouldn't I would be like some of you would come in and hit me with a brick. But I think they want those kids. They still want that. Yeah, sure. They can't afford a 4090 with the I9 Ryzen nine on it, but they still want to have it right. So I don't, I don't think that really changes that much. I you know, because they are and this is

the problem with consoles for a long time is they don't you could not buy in Xbox you could not buy a PlayStation in those markets. The PC, because of the openness of it, has has had a much, much larger market. So many playing integrated graphics on an Ivy Bridge Xbox somewhere is still playing PC games and they probably are playing on a on an Xbox or PS5 because they couldn't get those either in those markets. They just simply weren't available. So the the openness of the PC really succeeded t

here. It's like nine apart that openness, like the fact if you told me when we were sitting down, looking down the barrel of the Xbox 360 and 28 and like, you know, it was clear that they were going to just demolish that generation by bringing a bunch of formerly PC exclusive features to consoles that that in ten, 15, 20 years there would be a $400 handheld device that you could play full PC games on. I would have told you you were out of your mind. And here we are. It's because of that open eco

system that we're in this position and any anywhere from like your ten year old, you know, your tens like the number of people that are still playing games on 1070s in three gigabyte 1060 2060s and stuff like that is is in like you could look at the Steam survey and see we have somebody in our discord who's holding on tightly to is 970 it looks like three and a half gigs ten 1080 best video card of all time. Right? We all know yeah we know how that that Hall of Fame. Well the people have spoken

do know. Yeah the people have spoken. And I before we get to a poll, I want to ask you guys all this and this ties into a couple of super chats that came in. So we got $10 from Mike in front of the show. Thank you. So, thank you. Mike asks Console to PC What's a PC including a mac? Can I do homework or budget on the console? So if you can do homework and budgeting on a console, each of you guys answer, Is it a PC or a console? Just just give me one answer. If you're going to do your work on your

controller, on your console. Yeah, please do. Please do. Is it a PCR console? Yeah, but you can plug in the board. Yeah, well of course it's, course it's like, you know, what I do is like, my wife is watching three body whatever problem and I'm like, Hey, by the way, I need to jump on the console right now and do our taxes. So let me just you could stop watching this Netflix on the big TV while I sit here with a mouse and keyboard and do the taxes on the TV. I mean, you should be doing it toget

her as a fan. No one's going to do that. Well, no. And the Mac is not a PC. It's just simply let's let's get that straight. Because of the Mac, we're piece. See? See, that's why you a I think it's all semantics, right now because the Mac is every single mac A-hole and I'm on top of the aholes here okay people like to say how can I say you cannot say Mac is a PC and then two sentences later say Mac is better than PC if it's a PC, how could it be better than the PC? I mean, I don't understand what

you are. That is a good point. You're making your your Mac person. So you either are mad, excited, Mac, or what do you have on the iPad? That's not what you have on your watch. Yes. I'm just saying look. Right. And don't say it's a P.C. Look, don't say it's a PC. If you're going to say it's better, look, I'm going to make zero sense. I'm here representing inclusivity. I believe that the personal computer is a is a big tent that everyone can be under Macs, Android, windows, steam decks, cars, wa

tches, fridges. It's all a personal statement. You make an argument for me. Well, let's let's make sure we get that correctly, because if you're saying lowercase, it's a personal computer. IBM hasn't made a personal computer in 15 years. They sold that business to Lenovo. But I just think I do know personally. Yeah, it's a it's a computer. Yes, it's a computer. Is it personal? Personal computer? Yes. Yeah. Does that make it a P.C., Which, by the way, why don't you try to go back in time and sell

your Compaq PC next to your IBM PC and call that in the store and have IBM not come and drop a load of lawyers right on your head? Right. Halt and catch fire just recently? Or is this a long, long running raid? He also other things. Okay. We we all know what PC means. Uppercase PC, lowercase PC first computer is not the same as uppercase P.C. If it's not if it's not a timeshare, Vacc is not. It's personal. That's as far as I can give you two terminals hooked up to it. It's not personal. Look wh

at you did, Mike. Yeah? This is your fault. Okay, So another super chat from the show. AVC Jester, thank you so much. $5 Super Chair Thank you. I can still load my copy of Half-Life two on my PC. I can't do that on a Ps5 Now, if you can load Half-Life two on a PC, but I mean that too. To that point though, over the past couple of generations, even Nintendo is finally accepting, hey, you know what? We should have backwards compatibility. So for a price. Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, we've real

ly. We've gotten more. Yeah. Yeah. Nintendo is is actually talking about hey backwards compatibility is a thing. Wow. Great. So, I mean, even with this, even they're even they're starting to get a little. But, you know. Wow. So that's not a good sign. Well, okay, it's a good sign. So. So now that is awesome. No, I as a Yeah, sure. As a PC person, I do think that's a good thing. But I also kind of wonder if that makes a larger statement about gaming. Right. Because they are used to having very he

avy handed approaches to it like, by the way, buy new stuff again by the same thing you bought again over and over and over again because we do not want to sell. You do we don't want to sell you the same damn video, you know, DVD that we bought. That's, you know, I'm just surprised that they would do that. That's that's kind of what I'm not surprised at all. Yeah. Have you seen how much nostalgia sell stuff. Yeah. You know, it's. But they're in business to sell you nostalgia for an extra $15. I

don't think I would tell you which they will. They don't sell you just the nostalgia. They sell you the nostalgia, the game and the controller you need. Because using a modern controller to play those games is terrible. Really? What? The N64 controllers, it's it's a one of a kind, actually. The N64 four controller with the Usb-C port for the the switch is actually pretty good. It's real high latency though because you got to you got to check those Mr. Ratings. Gordon I think to answer your quest

ion I which one. It's impossible to say at this point. I don't, I don't I think that people I don't, I actually, I actually it's Liz's question. I don't think you can play Half-Life one on the PC anymore because I bet that the installer for Half-Life one on the CD doesn't work two more. 2022 is on Steam. Doesn't matter. Anyway, no one just had that patch to Half-Life one. I understand that, but I'm. I'm talking about my copy of Half-Life one that I bought in 1997 and I put in my optical drive, w

hich I don't have in my computer anymore, but also the installer is a 32 bit app that is probably not backwards forwards. Good point. But I think to just point is that hey, he has a copy of Half-Life two on PC. He can't load it on a Ps5 now. He probably killed it on the Ps5 as a console, not a PC, right? Because he can't play that on the disc that you bought it on a or PC. I bought a copy of Spelunky on the Xbox three 6015 years ago and it plays on my Xbox series. S now. I say more now than ever

, it's, you know, that's moving away. I mean, the disc part of it does make it more sticky for sure. But I mean, obviously, obviously all the vendors want, you know, the physical media part of it to it away. So, I mean, the thing is, is that we can we can argue about the whole disc thing and backward compatibility. But there's also the thing that happens that can affect PC too, and that's de-listing. So that's a thing with digital. yeah. No, I mean preservation. Once again, I've been I need to g

et Frank on for sure because I think on the PC that's even more sticky in some ways. Like there are, there are large periods of time in the PC. I've been trying to play Heretic too, which is a the game that came out the week after Half-Life one did in 1997 or 98, and it's basically it once you get it opened and unpacked and installed, it's easy to to to play. But getting it unpacked and installed is really challenging because the installer doesn't work and it's all encrypted and like it's just y

eah, it's like that. Like direct access to one through three games. Really hard to get to play on modern PCs and that's, that's all like 90, 96 through 1999. Early 2000. Yeah. Although I wouldn't just simply emulator at this point because you have such excessive amount of power you know well so you can emulate DOS stuff easily but early Windows games are still pretty hard to emulate. So it's like you have to run a like a V an XP VM and like that's, that's a whole that's, that's a little more tec

hnical. I think most people are willing to go through. Yeah, but it also probably tells you while you really don't want to, there's no company that really needs to burn energy to support the five weirdos who want to play that game, you know? So I mean, maybe now you're throwing, Hey, I'm right here, but like, we're all thrown under the bus for. Well, the other thing, though, is that a lot of those games are tied up in, like, licensing hell. Like I joked that when Microsoft bought Activision, it

was so that they could get Heretic to Buck. Right? Because Activision, Microsoft, Activision, Bethesda and somebody else all had potential rights. Right now they're all under the Microsoft umbrella, whatever. Yeah, and there's always even in even in horror and drivers, there's always some lawyer buried somewhere like a land mine like, yeah. You think like, well no problem. We'll just we will just open sources. Driver gives driver while you know what there's actually IP for that that say this lon

g defunct company had paid for something and then the lawyer you know pops up out of the ground and sues you. What's it doing Background, open sourced and like he had to pull this whole sound system out because they bought it from somebody else. Probably because, yeah, you don't you don't think about like, well, why would you care? But you know, and until the IP expires, you're, you're kind of screwed. Yeah well you got more to quick comments before we go along with you. Probably need to move on

topic that quick shout out here is cb H for God. Yeah. My son keeps asking me for PC now despite having an Xbox. So yes, you guys is playing, you know like, you know thanks to by Twitch and you know content creators out there. Yeah. You play a bit of an influence right And I see Falcon Northwest since when did can it play Crysis get replaced with can I do my taxes on it now you guys are getting old It's April 3rd right this time through here in America. Tax time is is upon us. But you get a rec

ord. Yeah. It is sad, isn't it? You know, I think the saddest thing about canopy crisis as people who actually lived through that era is it went from aspirational like, I've I've got to have like three 800 GCSEs to play Crysis at 50 frames a second to it turned into just kind of like this meme and it just isn't, it doesn't have it. At one point it used to be like, Wow, this is cool that this game is so hard, I can't play it. I have to have to build a completely new computer two years down the ro

ad to play it. But it's almost like reinforcing, Well, yeah, I mean, now crisis is into in a way, like it feels like a joke, you know, because, you know, I believe in their original developer crisis. Probably thought like, you know, it was cool to get on everybody's radar, but we we couldn't sell a lot of games because you couldn't play it on any of the hardware. So and now, you know, when people complain about hardware, you know, having to have a 4090, of course, because of the pricing is not a

nything anybody likes. But there was a time where people would be like, it's actually cool to have a 40, 90, I wish I had a game or I needed 340, 90. So it's it's just interesting that the the market has expanded so much that it isn't all all just, you know, motor heads chasing more hardware to now people just simply wanting to play a game like a console. You just want to have like a, a you know, 40, 60 load a game and be able to play 4K at 100 frames a second. Right now I really mean that becau

se I think a lot of console players, PC gaming is is so large now that you have people that are are very much they just want to play the games. They want to sit here and download drivers and tweak settings and like what's FSR a 3.1. You know they just want to play the stupid game and not have to worry about the stuff. So. So you're saying that people who might come over from console may not actually change your stripes as much as everyone thinks they do just because they change their hardware? I

'm sure that they're stripes are going to be red, green and blue, sometimes pink and purple, and then sometimes all the colors are mixed up and rotating at 60 hertz in the background because that is that is really what I think drives it. So I'm just saying that sometimes you just need a car and maybe you buy the fancier model because everyone else is, but it doesn't mean your car or gearhead. Well, but I would argue that you don't so like well it so like if we were say consoles were like it woul

d be like a bicycle with a basket in front for it and you're riding around that when you're in the fifth grade and then later on you want to like, I actually would like to have a Camaro or I would like to have a Camaro with, you know, that gets 12 miles to the gallon and can't really idle because you don't have to service it. Yeah, it just, you know, well, not even that, but it just it's it's so true. It's called a lumpy cam right over the first car. Analogies are annoying, I guess. I think Moto

rhead. But I do think that once they've kind of moved over to, you know, what the PC is, is a different world. And I think, you know, we've had this we go back and forth for a minute. I just don't think that's I think the why the PC is superior is because that's what all the kids eventually want to grow into. Because at the moment, sure, I take it out from that argument, though I will say that it's slightly unfair to characterize the console as only a basket or sorry, a bicycle with the basket j

ust because there are periods where consoles price performance ratio exceed sort of PC in the same space, I would argue. And there's and there's there's I mean the chat was even talked about earlier where it's like at the beginning of a console launch or in the beginning years of a console launch, like the first maybe one or two, you just can't beat what you get from those consoles. Typically I don't. And then for people who are in those price ranges and want to, I just want to play games. It's

a really great solution. So I mean, there I guess the analogy would be roughly is that sometimes you realize don't need to drive to the the store all the time and you want to shed a few pounds and you just get on your bike. But then the weather comes in, you're like, crap, it's winter. I don't want to have I want to have to take the bike out. Forget it. I'm just saying little unfair. Well, I guess what I'm saying is I don't think there are in typically with every new console, there is a period w

here it's not really price performance ratio. There's often times where in the past actual performance is just simply better on the console. Initially, right, there were times when there were new consoles like, actually this is better than what you had on PC, which you could get even with the highest and graphics performance on the PC and, you know, sure wouldn't last more than like six months. But there were definitely there are times when the console can exceed PC and performance. I wouldn't a

rgue that the price performance, but just simply actual pure performance there. There are times when that happens. And I'd also argue that the consoles, the thing, the real value of the consoles, the whole ecosystem is that they set they set the bar for a lengthy period of time, you know, like we're we're seeing Raytracing hardware coming raytracing games that use Raytracing coming out because there's a large installed base on the Ps5 and Xbox series and like we wouldn't get that if it was just,

if it was just, hey, we have to rely on the lunatic, you know, the half of the half of a half of a percent of people who buy 4090s and 4080s and, and high end graphics cards for the PC because otherwise we'd just be building everything for 2060s right now, or the steam deck or the steam deck. So I laughed a little bit because yes, you're right, they use the word and they're like, wait a second, I'm not going to call myself that. No, no. I changed my mind, my word, y'know, I get it. You was goin

g to say lunatics like the people who are like, super into the highest end, right? If all think they aren't, you be like, No, I'm not. I'm not going to call myself that. It's plenty around the Motorhead, so you get it. Nothing wrong with it. Elaine might argue it makes my computer faster. I don't want hear anything about it. There you go. Aren't you being mine too? Damn right. Well, lastly, the chat seems to have spoken, so I put out a poll half an hour ago because we've been chatting for this t

opic for quite a while, asking, Hey, if you can do your taxes on an Xbox, it is considered a console or a PC. Now, still a console was leading at first and then now it's kind of falling behind at 46%. Considering it, a PC is now 54. So Xbox is a PC is the final verdict from the chat. Thank you for putting it in the people spoken by spoken. Thank you. That means we should get close. I'm going to close the poll. Yes, we're going to move on. We're going to move on. Word? Yeah, I'm sure, because the

next one is going to make people really happy. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Microsoft wanting your money, this this is breaking news. Gordon sent this over right before the show, so we had to change up the topics. So I don't really know about this. Gordon, You have to take it, but the headline from One might Cry over a PC world says Want to keep using Windows ten safely. Microsoft wants $61 per year. Subhead says Microsoft's extended security updates Windows ten past its support date now has a price

, and it's more than $400 to keep your PC patched until 2027. Whoa. Yeah. So $61 per year per year to pad getting it after. So if you don't know because you've been hiding under a rock Windows ten will no longer receive security updates after October of 2025. That is the that is the day that it all ends for Windows ten. But then Microsoft has done this for large enterprise and large government contractors in the past. They will still roll out security updates. They charge them. We now know the p

rice will be $61 and then it will, quote, the price will double every consecutive year for a maximum of three years. Microsoft says that would make year two start $122 in years three 244. And by the way, if you decide to skip the security updates for the first year in, buying on the second year, you still have to pay for the first year of updates. Well, I mean, they come with that second year free, right? You're just you're just getting them rolled. No, no, no. This isn't like an old service pac

k, right? This is like you can install service pack two in downloads or pack one for free. This is you pay for service, pack one, and you pay for service pack to hate. So, yeah, here's a question. How long is Windows 11 been out now? Do we know? I mean, I know we know. Like, do we remember as a group? I'm curious. Don't look it up. Probably three years. It was like three years. Wait until 2021 October 20, 21. Is that it? So that feels pretty good. That feels earlier than that to three four. I go

t it. What is it? Roughly three years. So it'll be four years by the time they pull the plug on the last version of Windows. That seems like I don't feel super, like I don't think Windows 11 is great, but I don't feel like that's a bad length of time. Well, right. Well, here's the thing, though. I. Sorry, Did you I'm sorry. Going where you actually know you should because we're going to double barrel home with anger here. You should go first. Well, but hey, specifically, this is about Windows te

n, though. So these are people who don't want to go on Windows 11, who've been using Windows ten since. Whenever that came out. Here's something thing that we haven't mentioned, and I think it's really relevant to this, is that there's a lot of hardware out there that cannot make the jump to Windows 11. That's true. There's a lot of hardware that cannot make the jump to Windows 11. So what they're basically doing is putting people in a really awkward position with this because that means what's

going to happen is that they're going to just be a ton of people who are going to be running unpatched Windows ten, right, Because they can't afford to upgrade their hardware to compatible 11 hardware, excuse me. And they're not going to be able to afford it. Successively increasing prices for security patches. And this is going to go opposite in the direction that Microsoft says it wants to go with the Windows ecosystem. So I guess what they're trying to do, I just don't think it's going to end

well this year the way that they're hoping. This is because of the TSR requirements or the the TSM, the behavior, it's not just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't think anybody's ever gotten to the bottom of the reasons why things are like are pushed overboard and things like I will tell, I won't I'm looking to the right, I'm looking at my current desktop and it has a, it has a Skylake processor in it. It's one of the Skylake processors that is qualified to run Windows 11. I have no idea why th

ere are like there are Bazaar Surface Studio. Remember the surface, that beautiful surface and one that has studio one. Yeah, yeah. Some of those chips receive Windows 11 updates and I no idea why I, I yeah I think I know they remember what you told me about. I think it's the same explanation you gave me. I'm just going to regurgitate it for you, which is remember when I said, was it like the meltdown specter, all that kind of stuff. And you're like, hey, like, you're probably not going to get a

boss update for that. And I was like, Well, I did. And you were like, It's probably because somebody who's a really important customer for Microsoft Bunch bought a bunch of those boards or stuff for Intel, but a bunch of those boards. So it's very possible that that could apply to this scenario that you're talking about here. Or someone's got a boatload of Skylake processors for some application and they're like, we're going to have to make an exception for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just I,

I think the reason why Will I would if this were a normal thing like if, if Microsoft says, you know what, just stop running Windows eight, okay? Just please stop. Because honestly, Microsoft has been a really good steward of Windows over the decades because, hey, you know what? I know you're angry. We're to make you move off of Windows seven. But you know what? You can run Windows eight, upgrade for free. Yeah, You want you want Windows. You want Windows ten. It's free not a problem. This what

we're going to run into in October of 2025 will be something the PC has never in its entire history done before, which is we are going to do the most Apple thing in the world and take literally hundreds of millions of computers back behind barn. Can you know what you do with the animal behind the barn? And that's what's going to happen. And Tom, give him a big hug. Yeah, guess so. No, the news. No, I just don't know what's going to happen because, you know, like Eileen says, a lot of people can'

t afford it and they are just going to really run unpatched operating systems. I know where those people are going to go. I completely forgot. I completely forgot about the hardware requirements for Windows 11. I completely rescind my earlier statement. The fact that they're going to landfill hundreds of millions of computers is after four years is is ridiculous. Right? Like, like I had. Yeah, I look, it's not after four years because once again these these machines are running Windows ten, whic

h came out four years after they made an arbitrary decision to stop supporting the old hardware. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the vast majority, you know, probably 99% of seventh Jan and back will not be qualified to run Windows 11 and up. And what does it ryzen 2000 and up 2000. A low rise in 2000 I think is cut off or is to the original. There's really just a it's a it's a large yeah there's a I mean which is like we've never done that before. It's it's it goes against everything the PC has stood for

in its entire existence. And I don't, I don't I, I mean I kind of wish they would come out and be more straight with the reasons why I suppose some of it could be. We just want you to buy new hardware because if we let you run your 20 year old post, by the way, there's a reason why Apple's continuing to kick us in the face, because they can take they can take old hardware out and flush them all day and they're their buyers start copying like, my gosh. It's like it's like Logan's Run. I'm looking

, well, I was just looking in that direction. Okay, well, if they do that because I mean, Apple people, if, if you take it's like they renew like they take you and they, they, they think they're like, you're going to a better place this like, no, you're taking my x86 MacBook that I paid $4,000 for and you're stranding me you know behind right and that but Apple users have traditionally just clapped at that PC users have never tolerated that. And I just don't know what's going to happen. And now

that we know they want $61 for one year. Yes, absolutely. We're kind of bonkers. I mean, we know what happens when a bunch of Windows users don't run security updates because it happened in Windows XP before that SP2 stuff. It was a complete disaster. And every computer in the world was infected with the boatload of spyware and crap where, like, it's going to be bad. You're absolutely. And I just I want to know why. I mean, is it is because they they want they're tired of like people trying to r

oll 15 year old hardware. And I mean, let's be honest, if you have to support everybody from 15 year old hardware to the newest thing, it makes it a terrible experience. We all know this. Right? And plus, you have to. So they just want to make the windows smaller to make it more manageable. Or is there actually a legitimate reason why Kaby and back is is cut off? Like, is it really? I remember early on when they made the announcement, there were a lot of arguments and I kind of was sort of suppo

rtive of like if there's a legitimate issues because they are now doing newer security procedures that basically an assault on a Broadwell and back just like run like pu I guess I could I can understand that but I've never seen anybody, you know nail that down and then now that you're talking about 60 box and then $122 and 244. It's just like my, my bet is that no one who's still there is from the bad old times when Windows XP getting updated with the security updates and they had to they had to

rewrite the entire OS in six months to to solve their worldwide, you know, virus problem. Right. I mean, yeah I don't know I just opened Carrousel It's Yeah they are boring I just don't get it I just think people are going to they're going to be super pissed off. And is Microsoft going to blink right now? I don't think they're going to blink this time. I think they again, just like Xbox. You know what? You know how much money you make compared to all the other stuff we're making. It ain't much.

Does that mean you are going to get like defender updates and stuff like that on Windows XP and Windows ten anymore? Yeah, because presumably those are cross-platform. Like those shouldn't be specific to Windows ten. Yeah, I would bet you would still get the definitions for defender, but I just think does it really matter because you're going to have so many holes in the operating system. Yeah, well that's the problem. They're in there. The The either have people who are going to get angry beca

use of the price or they're going to have a lot of people who are exposed. And that's I mean, that's not good for them either way. Right? So which which is the lesser of two evils for them, I guess. I don't know. You know, the the funny thing though, is it's, you know, again, I don't know the Internet, you you hate Microsoft unfairly, but Microsoft has forever given you free operating systems. Right. Remember how you know how it's how fun it is being on Android O your Android phone is four years

old. You ain't getting squat. Go buy new thousand dollar phones. Why I don't buy Android phones frankly. Yeah yeah I yeah you get and but you know for Microsoft it's like we give you Windows seven Windows eight Windows 8.1, Windows ten one is 11. How can you complain about that all these years? It hasn't it hasn't really gotten them any goodwill. People so angry at them. But the weird thing is now we're seeing go the other way where Samsung and Google are like, hey, we'll give you seven years o

f security updates for your for your Android phone. I mean, but that's a safe bet for them because those phones are going to be out of the channel in seven years like a phone doesn't. Phone batteries are good for 1500 charges and like that. That math works out to, what, five and a half, six years. It like does doesn't work PC, too, because you know, the laptop batteries, same thing. You have a limited lifecycle and that's true. Vast majority of pieces are laptops these days. I, I would think tha

t they're sort of going the opposite of what Google and Samsung are doing in Apple, frankly, because Apple's actually been a very good steward about for iOS. They're certainly not really good for for Mac OS because they're like, hey, by the way x86 right But iOS, they're like, hey, no problem. This thing that can barely run anything will we'll roll out this latest OS but I, I just don't know I think there's just going to be a massive, you know, shitstorm that's going to happen in 2025. I don't k

now what's going to happen. I just beat button Will this year. I got to get on the beep button. It's just such a new experience for us because we've always been able to run the latest operating system and it just kills me like, yeah, you got a Sandy Bridge box. That is actually perfectly fine for what it's doing. If you have a patched OS on it, you don't really want to even connect that. The internet, right? You want to air gap and that's it. Yeah. You'd be crazy to put on the internet. Yeah, mo

st people could use Linux instead, but they're not going to, they're just going to leave it Unpatched. Well, that's the reality of it. I mean, how many of you fooled with that Chrome OS install that they have? I put I put that on an old MacBook that my daughter uses and then they get bought now. Yeah. So it used to be cloud ready. Yeah. They're independent and then Google bought them so they turned it into Chrome OS at OS Flex. So it's branded still with the Chrome OS under Chrome OS now but it'

s a separate does support old operating systems. So the way it works is that Chrome OS is still reserved, It's like the official thing and it comes with extra things like the whole, like secure boot, like verified boot, that kind of stuff, so that your Chromebook is considered more secure. Chrome OS Chrome OS flex can be installed on pretty much any device. However, x86 device, however, there's a list of supported devices. So like if it has a touchscreen or like has certain audio drivers, those

devices listed in that official supported list are the ones that will operate properly. So it's kind of like, yeah, you can try installing on this one. That's not a list, but it may just you may not have like, you know, you're micro, it might not work or you know things are a little weird basically. Yeah. And I misspoke I meant as an install in older hardware so that's yeah I, I did it so for the I had an article on how to convert an old laptop to a Chromebook on our website and the machine I us

ed was like a Lenovo X 240. So like I think a Haswell era laptop, it works great. It runs really super smooth. Honestly, it's better. I still like that. Chip is still a better chip than a lot of the really like stripped down arm chips that they used for Chromebooks. I put it on a on a sandy bridge MacBook Air and it was fantastic. I was like blown away. Like it felt really good, way faster than this Chromebook that my kids school gave her during the pandemic. Yeah, well, back to Windows. Surpris

ingly, the chat is loving this idea by Microsoft. I'm just kidding. Really. It's a joke. No is a joke. April Fools is to blame for everything and it is the third right now already. But I mean, here's the thing, though. I would rather go back to paying for Windows and just not getting like not having them install a bunch of crap that I don't want. Right? Like, I don't want a candy crush installed on my windows ever. LinkedIn. I want to not I want to be the I want to be the customer and not the pr

oduct. And I'm happy to pay 100 bucks to Microsoft when I build a new PC to do that in the meantime. And I say that knowing full well that just like I am pretty sure that if you looked at the provenance of the Windows key that's installed on my computer, it probably started when I worked at maximum PC in like 2007 with Windows seven. What's your problem of being the product? I don't want them to be dumping a bunch of I want I want to put the I want to be the only one that puts stuff on my comput

er. I don't want them to put a bunch of crap that I don't want on my computer. I have to go through an uninstall Candy Crush and a bunch of other nonsense every six months. And like, I don't I don't want to be marketed to on my desktop PC. Like I'm fine being. I'm marketed to literally everywhere, but they're in the bathroom and my steam deck, I guess, kind of I just I just want to I want to be able to give them money and take a service from them, which is them providing me an operating system t

hat does what I want and I don't want any I don't want I don't want any copilot. I don't want any. Hey, have you tried Bing? I don't want hey, here's a bunch of Bing results when I type in the start menu. I don't want, I don't want, I don't want no, I don't want to find out how great edge is. I don't want to know about Office 365. I don't care about OneDrive. Let's see what other stuff teams to use. He said, No, Copilot. Copilot. I'll see copilot in hell. You're going to get a copilot, you know.

Yeah, I know. I don't. I don't want any of that. I just want windows and I want to run Windows programs that I install. And I wanted to leave me alone. Yeah, well, if Microsoft pays you to put ads in your bathroom, would you do it? How much? Now, what are we talking about? I don't know how we can. Now, you know, you heard me sort of dumping on Microsoft now for 20 minutes. Let me ask you something, Will. I want you to take your head tilt it. Take your head. Just tilt this 17 degrees to your lef

t. Yeah. No, no, I mean like it. okay. Okay. Now move your head down. Ten degrees. Yeah, yeah. Right there in front of you. Yeah. Device. Yeah. What's. How much control do you have over that? What is that? Android they have? It's split screens so I can see I can have, I have a Firefox window on one side and a YouTube window on the other side. I just want to say this for audio. Listen, I got to say there is a double standard that I will never understand where I've and I've had people come in, I'v

e had, you know, other tech journalists and that are techies like, my God, our company forgot to have a microsoft account to sign into Windows. What phone using this is a brand new yeah, it's a brand new Apple or Android phone and it's got so many damn things signed in. Like what the f is your problem where you could sign your entire away to Apple and Google, but for some reason your desktop operating system is some kind of firewalled thing. I don't understand that attitude and I won't defend Mi

crosoft here because I don't understand why. If you're like you're willing to give your life away to your your phone maker and tablet maker, what hell is wrong with you signing in to? I'll explain is really simply. go ahead. I was just going to say I have an answer for that. But it's it is not the normal person's response. So Gordon's argument would still stand. So so here's here's the thing. I pay for photos with the place that I want to pay for photos right? Pay for photo storage with Google a

nd I pay for Dropbox for my cloud storage because I want to use Dropbox and that's the one that I'm using. It's cross-platform and it's good. I'm always going to do the cross-platform because I work on Windows and I work on Linux and I used to work on Mac, not so much anymore, but my phones on iOS and I live in all of those different places. So I don't pay for Apple, okay? I do pay for Apple Music because my wife pays for Apple Music and we get the family the family deals and we all have Apple M

usic and, Apple Arcade. But she uses storage on her phone and I don't use that storage for my backups and stuff like that. Right? I want to be able to choose and I don't want it to bother every time it does. An update like say what you will about iOS, but I don't install a patch from Apple and then it's like, Hey man, you look like a new user. Have you considered signing up for Apple iCloud? Have you? What do you think about Apple? You know what's dope about Apple music? We've got the new Beyonc

e album. It's country. Did you know? I know Microsoft is terrible at this stuff And and also it's the device where I'm least likely to need that stuff because it's plugged into the wall at my house and it weighs £50 and it's hooked up to and that's where it's backed up automatically. So I don't need the iCloud bullshit. Sorry. Well, before we go, we got to mark this episode as it's explicit. We're done. Then. Okay. Well, that's another eight year olds are watching this three hour PC podcast. You

know, it's really cool. Then go on to that Apple you have and then press that little colorful icon that says I photos or photos and don't use that one. Call it. Can you uninstall it? I don't care. It just lives in the tray with all the 50 million other. S Yeah, but you don't want that app cluttering taking up space. It's like you wonder why. Who cares? It's a one. Why? Why can't you uninstall in? You know, I bring that up because the EU basically is like coming out and says Apple, you need to l

et users unbundle the photo application for my OS. Right? I think that's great. That sounds wonderful. But yeah, but you're, you're, you're complaining about Microsoft. I agree their commercials bad their commercials are bad. Candy Crush you know pre-installed. But again, there is a double standard where if for some reason Apple or Google does it, it's perfectly okay If they don't annoy me with it. It's the thing I don't it's not this isn't this isn't like a Cory Doctorow style. Hey, I'm complai

ning about the way things are because it's I'm an old man yelling at the clouds. This is me saying don't annoy me with being bad at things. If they were good at it, I wouldn't mind. They bother me once I hit the no button and then I never hear from it again. Yeah, but. But you tell. Uninstall the photos on iOS. The example you used was candy Crush, which isn't necessarily annoying you. It's just please don't update. It's not a major Windows update, but you can uninstall it, whereas you can't uni

nstall. That Photoshop you don't even use or pay for it. But but like, why do they really think that? I've said no 15 times to OneDrive and I'm finally like, you know, if they put the period in a different place in the pitch, I'm going to probably say, yes, they're AB testing me and I don't like it probably anyway. So much better hypocrisy there. A little bit of both. I'm comfortable with my amount of hypocrisy. I'm just going to go I will say angry typing there is an exception to what you're sa

ying, Gordon, and that is as a as a reviewer, I do not want to enter my Microsoft account on 15 different PCs over the course of three I have a burner account. Yeah, yeah, I have. I have a test account that I use and it's actually I can use it to maintain it. It actually works out pretty well. So I just don't like it because I can't guarantee it's not going to sync things, you know, like I don't want it to sink like that. So that's why I prefer a local. But again, very small, very, very like min

uscule than 5.1% of the population. Yeah, but I point I guess the thing that kind of kills me is I know people who have lost machines and they luckily because they were average people, they had signed up for the Microsoft account and they got the modern operating system experience, sort of like. By the way, we've backed up all your documents in your desktop. That's great. And that's that's very much like modern modern OSes in mobile, OSes did benefit them. So if they didn't do it and they were j

ust some crank and had a local account, everything would have just been vaporized with drive. Right. So can you blame Microsoft for wanting to make it easier for people to not lose everything on their computer? I, I can't. I just can't. I can't blame them for that. Yet people get super angry because, you know, yeah, the ads are not good, but at the same time, there are real benefits to it that when you have modern features, you let them add modern features. I mean, it's just one of the things wh

ere Windows people just like we wish things never changed from Windows seven or Windows XP, right? You just like but you can't run a business trying to sell somebody the same candy bar that you sold them 50 years ago. Because one day nobody wants to eat your damn candy bar because you know you can't change the taste of it. So I don't know, it's a bad place to be to come back to the to the security thing, though. You want it to you want to make security for people, right? Just like backup, all th

at kind of stuff. You want to make it easy for people. Instituting this does not make it easy for people. No. Right. Especially if they want stay with the hardware that they have because a lot of people do, you know, So that's you know, I have an idea. Well, you should do a poll. Are people willing to pay one dollars for Windows updates? Would you would you say this is. I don't know. I'm pretty sure the majority I go with curious. Yes. 400 for three years, wasn't it? Well, it's $61 a year, you k

now. 120. 21 the first year. Yeah. Yeah. It's of 61 the first year, 120 the next year and 244 the following year. So it's like what Gordon said, like approximately $400 maybe. Here's a but until actual end of life are, you willing to pay for money for security updates. So you know so because I mean that's the thing we're boiling down to right? Is it you know, regardless of the price having to charge for security updates, just to use your old hardware is not good any way they slice it. I mean, I

guess it's different. Maybe it's a dollar versus 60, but it's still, you know, paying for security this year. It's I've got this fix for this. Yeah. Okay. This is the they can take this. I'm going to give this to Microsoft their. Go ahead. Okay. You're watching right now. Here's what you do. Listen, on October 23rd, what you do is you lock all the Windows ten PC so people can't use them anymore. And you pop up a screen that says your date is fine. But if you want to keep using this PC, you got t

o give us money and then you put your credit card number in and they just say, good, that's it. Yeah, done. Because they shouldn't have to use their PC If it does have security updates, that's dangerous. And and then, you know, they're right on the like. Don't worry, your date is fine because that's my favorite screen during night where you're don't worry, your data is where it's safe. Yeah I love this where it's just basically ransomware. Yeah. I mean, that's where we're at, right? Hey, we're g

oing to stop you for your. Let's get a real nice PC here. It'd be a real shame if happened to it. You know what I mean? Yeah. you like that screen on that PC would be a real shame for Cracked. You got all your personal data on here? Yeah. Would you say that like I again, I would play devil's advocate here. Do you think though, this is similar to states that have safety checks for vehicles? You know, like I would say as being from being from California? Well, we have our own kind of weirdness, bu

t there states in the East that, like, you have to bring your car in for safety check. You bring it into whatever I for windshield wipers and tires. And they look at it and they go like, my God, look at this. What the hell is this? Is this is this a sandy bridge machine that you you're running on a hard drive with three gigs of Ram this post. You are not taking this on my free. You're not talking because it's not freeways. You are not taking this on my highway, son. There's this piece of crap ou

t of here are going to crush this post because you are going to get on the road, goes down the car, driving down it, and you're going to start leaking oil and then you're going to swerve out and you're going to cause you're going to cause wreck that kills a bunch of people. So do you think it's similar to that safety check? And of course, the California thing, you move to a different place and they're like, That's fine. Yeah. But yeah, and California's like, can you can drive your post, but it's

producing a lot of smog so on or taking it off the road. But it's fine. It's a perfect no, we're going to crush it right now. I mean, you know, it's for the good of humanity. We're going to crush your smog making car. That's the California thing. But don't you think, like for the greater good, is that is that is that a plausible reason for ending it for everybody in 2025? Why is it a greater good, though? Because everyone's just running unpatched Windows ten. I don't think that's actually a wel

l, you're not going to be running it unpatched for long because you're going to lose it all because somebody will steal it. Yeah. So I guess in some ways it improves because. You're like, I guess I got to go buy a new computer finally, you know? So it's emotional trauma that they're trying to purposely. So because that way people will always be like I got to have the most up to date thing. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it'll teach them to have proper security updates and if back up, Yeah, if

Microsoft doesn't make the ransomware, somebody else. That's the thing to remember. So, yeah, we're, we're making a lot of jokes here Friday. Yeah, maybe you're right. Well, maybe you're right. Maybe they should just do it. Just like, you know, just stop. You backed up all your data. Here's a link to Dell, HP, Lenovo, A SUSE, and here's a Best Buy. There's one actually, it's walking distance your house go down there, buy this computer, sign in. We will restore all the data and you will actually

have a brand new modern experience with a binky or no key copilot on. Yeah, but your data will be much more secure than that. P.O.S. You know, like Seaney Birchbox, you've been driving down the road polluting the world with. So I, I don't know. I don't know how they dig themselves out of this one because they're fundamentally changing everything. And I, I, I guess I do have some sympathy because they have to do something and I just don't know how it's going to not end up with everybody, you know

, marching on Redmond, which, you know, I bet they end up rolling back the requirements for Windows 11 installs. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's too late. The stripped down version of like Windows 11 Super End or something, that's like the the no frills Windows 11, Windows 11, stupid. Again it's the Windows edition go Yeah mean maybe at the bottom Gordon hey here's the Dell here's the Dell HP links There's also a hey do you hate yourself here's a Linux install Yeah barebones des

ktop. How do I still have that like stripped down version of windows that was supposed to compete with Chrome OS what? NASA windows? No, no, no. Windows eight. I think they gave up on that. Yeah, because I was going to say like that could be an option for them where they like forced people where. Yeah. Edge os like chrome os, you know, you just do you just run edge browser anyway. Yeah. Well we'll see living on the edge. We'll see what we'll see. We'll come back to this. you know, we got a poll.

Yeah, obviously we know the majority. Yeah, there are, there are some people there are willing to pay subscription. but, you know. Yeah, interesting. Most of the people are not. So the first year, I think is 60 bucks. Okay, that's like $5 a month, you know, So 20, 23 data worth, they, they're just trying to heat up to to make sure you get off that machine, Right? Yeah. So I know we're about to get off this, but I do have a question like this is going to be a huge pain the but for a bunch of bus

inesses and like I feel like a year and a half is not a lot of time for, like, getting that kind of deployment figured out. I'm surprised that they would be announcing it relatively so late. I wonder if they're making it different, like I wonder if on the back end, like licensing the keys for large deployments is going to be a different pay structure than than this. Maybe this is just for end users. yeah. Having lived that Y2K life, I will tell you, you can update a lot of pieces in a year and a

half. Yeah, well, it's the money. It's the money. I know. It's also not a new thing, though. I mean, for Elena, they've done this in the past. They've they provided updates for obsolete operating systems because, you know, as we know, the United States government tends to move at the speed of concrete frozen on Pluto. So they have done and by the way, they don't ever care about how much money it costs. So they've done it before. I don't know if the cost structure is different. This really is th

e big change here to me is is for consumers. Yeah. So I just I mean, it feels more like impactful on consumers. But I also think that like say that you're a business that can't really afford to pay that much per year per license, but also upgrading to Windows 11 on newer machines or whatever you need to do to make it happen is also not an issue. Like I just think it's going to be kind of sticky for businesses of a certain size, you know? Yeah, no, I agree with you because this this again was the

first time the answer isn't to just install the newest operating system. The answer is to go buy a new computer. And that's that's really going to just piss everybody off. I well, if you're if you're looking for a cheap PC, you can check out over a piece of WorldCom. We've we've got great articles on how to get a new PC. Just start start buying now for owning for now or just install a friend of the show Ivan Ramirez off gives a good point. Just install the Gordon OS. It only charges a dollar fe

e for every log in there. Yeah, yeah. Boom. So swipe your card and you reboot. Yeah, never reboot. Just keep your windows, your machine on the whole time. So there you go. The more the more it's on, the more you save and you're mouse jig there so it never locks off consumer. That's. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Those are the days. Yeah. all right, let's move over to Q&A so we can get out of here. If you got some questions right now, get them in the chat at PC World. That's the easiest way for us to see it.

And if you're listening or watching this later put it, there's a link to our discord in the description. You can go over there. We have a question, channels that you can drop a question into that hopefully we'll get to. We do have a couple super chats I want to get to that. We're neglecting people. People love this this console talk. here we go. A friend of the show Coffee gave us a $2.79 Canadian to Canadian dollars $0.79. So the stores are mining cards. I don't know. I think were saying to yo

u there was a I saw a report years ago that someone using some tips for their mining on crypto on passwords. Wow. they also gave us a $6.99 cent Canadian dollars for friendship Coffee again. Thank you. So when you a monopoly, your main goal is to appear like you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that friend of the show, V.C. Jester gave us $5 Supercharge. Thank you so much. Said, Can we admit that mining may have convinced more people to purchase a PC? Maybe, as it. I don't know. I feel like

a lot of people will. They were the console shortages. There were the back back in the dark days a year ago when we all hunkered at home and we had nothing else to do but play video games. There was the shortage for the consoles. So I think people some people were were turning to PC because they they needed something. And the 2017 mining boom too. Yeah. I mean you know, maybe V.C. gesture gives another $5 super chair thank you so much. So if you want to preserve access to old games, you'll need

to get the National Historic Society involved. They never lose a fight, of course, but they go Bushie. 114, seven. Give us $5 soup. Jeff, thank you so much. That will you can download here in my opinion where yeah yeah yeah but he can't install it that's the problem the installer doesn't want to download anything. you know we are the ones who what we should do is. You have the National Storage Society like more local ones, and they just simply declare the operating system an historic operating

system. like, you know, like how they got the buildings? Like, look at this great big Liz, great park, this lovely Victorian. It's so beautiful. We're going to we're going to totally, you know. No, you can't this is this is a site of a story. Benjamin Franklin picked his nose here, so you can't do anything. What? But I just bought this place for a million bucks. No, you can't do everything. Has to stay. Same, including the lead based paint that's everywhere, like. But I. So we get them involved

and they just simply declare Windows ten a. Historic, historic operating city. Can't drill holes in a historic building and set up protected and certain rights operating like. Yeah I've heard stories from our cousins in the UK about like buildings like where they it looks like it's from 1942 because it's historic and they can't do anything like they have to. They have to act. Somebody like the old fashioned phone operator at the plug stuff in because they can't change anything in the building, c

ooking their steak and kidney pie on a wood fired stove. I like it. Yeah. Front of the show. Do never one guy one gave us the $10 super chair. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Said 100% agree with Elaina. Desktops and consoles are very different genre of personal computers. Sure, they're not mainframes or cloud computers, but they're not desktop laptop PCs. They're console PCs. Okay. Yeah, that's a good way to sum it up. Okay. Yeah. Never one. You want to also give us a $5 Super. C

had, thank you. Thank you so much. Said thumbs are fingers, but fingers are not thumbs and that's fine. Consoles don't have to be desktops. Yeah, true. Friend of the show Skeets. They are gifts of 5 CAD. Super Chet. All this Canadian dollars coming in. Thank you. My OneDrive sub has ended. Microsoft wants me to pay them $6.99 Canadian a month to maintain it. that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot Can you just just download all. I'll move it to another service. Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, I

guess just to be clear, like you can sign up for a commercial Gmail account on your own domain for $6 a month. Right? It's like that's and then you get like full tons of email storage, tons of photo storage, the whole thing, like it's it's their offer is bad. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, Microsoft. Well, you can do it. You can do it my way. I don't know if it's applicable in Canada, but you just buy discount codes and stack them. They got me. I did. That was like box alive and that's a deal. Heck yeah.

There you go. Do number one. Do you want to also give us another $10 Super chair? Thank you so much said bought 200 laptops in early 2020. Latest in that model line doesn't support Windows 11 despite having hardware TPM 2.0 and secure boot Ryzen seven 2700. You and I have Windows 11 on 12 piece fives. What? 12? Yes five a 12 XP five. However, not quite sure. Yeah, that's bonkers. You can buy a laptop in 2020 that doesn't speak about the things. That's. That is a bummer. That's a bummer to hell.

Was that right? They said it was our Ryzen 2700. yeah. Yeah. The Ryzens. Yeah. Okay. Because I think that was that was actually Zen one, right? Yeah. Yeah. To that 2700 use got. Yeah. That's, that was kind of like what that was part of the range when they first announced the whoopsie doodle. Yeah. let's see us now. We got some questions we're going to get to. This First one comes in from Adam Patrick Murray. Weird. He says, do you have a new handheld? Do you want to talk about. actually. Adam,

do you have new handheld? You want to know? Yeah. You know what's funny? I've been using it this whole time. I've been using it this whole time. Check. Check this out. Wait. That toy laptop is a computer. Is a gaming computer. We check this out. What is it? Is that it? It is a 1111 inch screen with joy-cons when people were giving you grief for using a tablet in the chat room. But you see, this is a handheld console. You're playing Google Docs with it with four degrees of freedom. Yeah. And taxe

s on it 100%. You can do your taxes on this. So this is the one x player x one. It's not I'm sorry, the one x player, x11x player, one word. Okay. x1x1. Meaning it's the first one in the line, presumably. Wilson Yeah. So this is an intel based. So I got this in because this is the only other meteor lake based handle that I have that's launched out there. So I want to see, hey, is it any different performance wise from the it's like claw, whatever. But yeah, they're ideas that, hey, what if we to

ok what if we took a tablet essentially 11 inch windows tablet allowed allowed for optional accessories like this, like this keyboard dock. I actually do like the standard setup. Yeah, that's hot. And it is pretty hardcore. It attaches with a magnet. Am I putting your upside down? Yeah, whatever. And then yeah, it has, it has detachable controllers, you know, all the switch and the, you know the Lenovo Legion go. Yeah. So this is, this is the Miller feel in your hands is good. Unfortunately thes

e controllers are crappy. This is the worst experience of it to tell you the truth. So actually do like gaming with a huge screen like. Yeah. Look I've seen I thought about getting one of those clamp on things for the iPad because like it's a huge screen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you say that now. So what's the what's the limit. How big of a screen tablet screen do you need, man. I tell you say, hey, this is enough. This is I don't know because hey listen, if people know me, they've known. I've always

wanted the biggest screen possible in my pocket. I yeah like I I've always loved huge phones I have you know like huge and these huge gaming handhelds I actually that's one of the things that I have liked about the Lenovo Legion go. It's a real big display but this has got three inches on it. This is a huge display. And I was like, okay, this is probably too much. It also weighs like three times the Lenovo Legion go or something. It's pretty easy and we always say bigger bar better. Adam's a big

ger screen better. And a real question though, Do you fit it in a pocket, Keep it in one of your pocket specifically. Maybe if he if he was ready to gencos maybe. Yeah. Well, from the Gencos I don't think there's any handhelds. Well, maybe that I in the air is probably the only handheld that I can probably. Didn't do. Do a livestream for a pocket test. you're right. We did. Yeah. Was it Diana thought that you could fit. I think that's the only one that would fit in a normal pocket. But yeah, mos

t of the handhelds I have, so I don't know. I feel like I haven't hit the limit because at first I was like, Yeah, this is going to be too big. And then I started playing and I was like, You know what? This is actually pretty nice and I'm sure. So will I. It was going to be no air pocket. Yeah, there you go. No front pocket from pocket. We need to go to the front pocket. It might, they might be sick with it and I was going to demonstrate now too, if I don't want to pull up like this, that's a de

ep pocket. Holy cow. Or Levi's. Can I say you're going to, you're going to hurt your there. it looks like he's struggling. Yeah. No, I am winces. it's going to I will say I am used to big phones so yeah, I like it. Yeah I see. I'm not I'm used to a dainty you know I'm going to, I'm going to do the whole show and the rest of the show with this in my pocket. 5 million people, not to mention the gencos though, makes me realize or maybe think actually that like the whole reason we're seeing a surge

in handhelds is because they got together with the fashion industry and they were like, Hey, so what's coming in the Pipeline? They're like, We got gigantic pants with gigantic pockets. It's like, sweet. Finally, we can't go back to now. I'm sure everyone also wants to know. And because everyone knows the atom with handhelds. Did you sniff it? of course I sniff that. yeah, That It's kind of minty and not a huge fan. Minty. Minty. You want it? You want to name a half of that? Doesn't smell minty.

It smells like urinal cakes. Yeah, well, I mean, that's. They all are flavors of that. Yeah. So anyway I would not recommend this for a lot of reasons, but it is it is interesting to have this form factor to say, hey, you know what I've got? Like, what doesn't it have? You know, it's a laptop, it's a tablet, it's a gaming handheld, new shimmers of floor wax. No, new shimmer is a desert topping. Yeah. Julien's It has the key. The keyboard looks nice, and I like that it has the Sandy highlights.

Yeah. No, I am an SDF person. The keyboard keys are fine, but this trackpad is like real drunk. Unfortunately, that's not great. And so, but yeah, it is the second intel based handheld out on the market. So I wanted to try for that reason anyway. Yeah, thanks for your question. Next time, give us super chat if you want to actually be read. You know, we actually do have a couple super chats. I forgot from last week that I didn't get to that. I wanted to bring up. Friend of the show we suggest gav

e us a $5 super Jeff thank you so much. Thank you last week and said How does the A.I. world plan to prevent A.I. in breeding where A.I. trains on data produced by A.I.? they're they're they're watermarking. So like images that are A.I. generated or watermarked in a machine readable way. So They don't. They ignore when they're training. really? Yeah. I don't know how they do it on text, but it on on images. I didn't know that. Yeah. Also, the A.I. people are using the same technology to poison t

he well on on on training new sets as well. interesting. So there's a there's an actual answer. A war brewing. Okay. Yeah. I don't know how they working on text. You know, like, I think we're I think we're just going to train their eyes on text in our text to the generator, but they are just going to get increasingly stupid, create. And then last week, friend of the show Coffee gave us 5 CAD Thank you so much Said, What's wrong with Dragon's Dogma two or Genova plus eight 2024 games too much to

handle or most CPU's too weak. Does this game work better on a 14 on here K or 7956 The answer is probably not. Have you played Dragons dogma two I have, but I've exclusively streamed it to the steam deck. So like 1280 by 800? Yeah. Well yeah. If people don't know it's. Yeah, there's a lot of problems with the game performance wise especially and yeah, I don't, I even think high end rigs are still struggling. It Seems fine on the 4090 with the 14 700 K but really. No I don't know it's good I pro

bably not a good representative sample of what the game is. This also does feel like maybe this I can't remember exactly the developer who who made Dragon Dragon's Dogma two but this also feels like one of those things where they didn't put a ton of time in optimizing the Capcom published game. I don't remember. The developer is. Yeah, but I don't know the de novo stuff. De Novo is kind of notorious for being a little performance intensive as well, which I get why they do de novo. Also, it feels

like there's probably better options out there. I don't know. That game sold a bazillion copies, so they'll be fine. Yeah, I'm sure they're like and whatever, but they're I mean, it would be nice if, you know, they, they didn't work on it. They did they did roll out the ability to reset your save, which was a real choice. Finally. Yeah. It does always make you wonder like clearly the as we've talked about earlier, the PC is one it is the premier gaming platform yet it gets zero respect from dev

elopers vast majority. Well okay well also also real quick and in this case it's running like dog poo on the consoles too So yeah, no, this isn't just a PC. It's it's Yeah, but it's probably even worse than the PC, you know, for number one is going to be you need to fix this on PlayStation and Xbox. Right. I think then we'll worry about the PC people because they're used to being crapped on all day. I'm sure it's a it's a Japanese. And traditionally Japanese developers have cared more about cons

oles than PCs. I think if you look at like Boulders Gate, which was a Western developed game, it was a little bit different situation, right? It Was bad. It ran badly on everything when it came out in early access. And then by the time it released for real, it was really nice to do Never 1g1 also gave us another super chat. Thank you so much. $5 this time I said just let me use my local account on all my PCs. Let me install Mac OS on my phone with an OS iOS toggle. Don't foresee settings on any

anywhere that don't force these settings on anyone I'd pay. So yeah. No. I mean, you used to be able to have the option have Windows 11 pro and install a local account. Right. You can still do it if you unplug stuff at the right. Exactly. Yeah. So now, now I've been installing PCs using the well know there's a command line once you hit the Yeah let's see that's the thing you no no Obi Ford slash bypass narrow or something like that. I can't remember I'm using it so much I'm almost starting to le

arn how to the code. Yeah. So that's the way you can install. Yeah. Yeah. Not, not just circle but with a local account. Ted still talking about Dragon's dogma. yeah. I was just going to say the other thing about dragons talking is it's a giant open world game. Dave playing years ago was on the podcast, was talking about the problems like testing and really seeing these big open world. They're basically impossible to test, like they're impossible to get full coverage on testing. So it's it's a h

ard game. Hampshire Anyway, All right. A couple more questions and we get out of here. I think, I hit all super chats. All right, cool. anything from the actual chat, Willis? Yeah, just all on Dogma. just duck my dragons. All right, I'm going to go over to Discord. We got some questions over here. yeah, Vicky Jester has another. Another brain bender. If companies have free reign to scrape all data on the Internet to change the train, their A.I. shouldn't the Internet have access to their source

code? Various fair. Well, I just think anything they train on my data I should get full access to. In general, these abilities are for free, right? Yeah, right. What do you think, Gordon? I A year training in A.I.. Still in my room in CEO? Yeah, I'm still working on my C-suite. Yeah. I do think, though, it'll be interesting because one thing you never anticipate are the legal challenges. And as we know, the only thing that can escape a black hole are lawyers and laws, and they don't follow the l

aws of physics. So it'll be interesting as we settle the legal aspects of it, right? Because if you're training on my data, haven't you my data. And now don't you owe me money? So you know their argument, right? They're saying it's the same as searching that was making a copy of the web to search the web. So they're saying you did it. So it's okay for Google. Why is it not okay for us? But girl, while they're making derivative works? I think the argument, though, is because Google does give you

a snippet sometimes, but they do give you a way to get to the original source, which has been that uneasy, you know, relationship between the the actual people who create content and people that serve you search. But if you're looking at me and you and you're creating a painting and that painting looks exactly like me, the courts have clearly found that you need to pay me money. That happened with member Fairey guy who did the Obama thing where he based it on Shepard Fairey. He based it on actua

lly an AP photo. Well, his ass lost so I could see the legal challenges. And and again, I guess my argument is like the laws of physics and the laws of computer science mean nothing to actual law. Yeah, to the legal system. So I, I just imagine it's going to be a massive I would probably rather deal with charging people $61 to do Windows ten than to deal with the future of how they're going to, you know, because somebody owns the stuff. Right. And we have an ownership. People want money for ever

ything. So it's going to be things are just going to be tied up in the courts forever. It feels like it feels a lot like they're trying to crank out as much open. I like open Air is trying to get as much of this stuff out where people are using it and used to it so that they can say, look, it's a public service we're providing. We're making it like before the copyright lawsuits start. That never stops. Lawyers. You know what? So There are many. There are many. There have been many lawsuits that

people will think are irresponsible and makes zero sense. And by the way, they end up winning. Yeah. And then everybody goes, no, true. So what happens then when the first time something goes like, no. Right. Oracle, Java, everything. I'm just like, no, yeah. You break. You've broken the entire business model. They've assumed they could just basically use all your data for free. And the courts have decided, no, you got to pay them. So what's, what's that world going to be like? Right. yeah, we g

ot a couple more good questions, but I think some of these are going to go a little long, so I'm. I'm going to hold them for next week. Yeah, there's one in particular for me VC jester with. I know you're, you're going to try to incite the Gordon, to come out. It's all in with this one from B.C. Jester If, if Nordic countries ever develop robots with, I would they be called artificial sweeteners? God, that hurt. And check back next week for your fix of P.S. talk here on the full nerd for all of

your listeners. Please subscribe to us over on Spotify. Well, actually, now you can't subscribe to us on Google Podcasts because Google podcasts is officially kaput. Rip Gone Dead, Dead as a doornail. So you could scribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube music, pocket casts anywhere you can point your RSS feed to. Then you can subscribe to this awesome audio podcast as well. And if you are on one of the services, please leave us a review. Every time you new a new console is born. I don't

drive. Gordon, You need to come back to this stuff. I don't. I don't have the good endings anymore. So we broke out with that. We had our questions. I think he's still caught on the artificial artificial sweeteners. I was just thinking it's probably unfair to the other Nordic countries like, Hey, we're Nordic too, and not everybody here. Sweden. Yeah, take that, please. Chester, I am your Finland host, Adam Patrick Maurer. I want to thank Gordon for for coming on the line. Joining us every week

. Good to have you. Good to have you back in the swing of things, Alaina, thank you. Thank you for being here to to defend the consoles. I appreciate it. I defended this. That argument has to be clear also for all the people in the chat, they were paying attention to me earlier. Remember to read your manuals art form for sure. Will, do you read the manuals? I wish I had read the manual this morning when I couldn't figure out how to unplug my car. yeah. That was no way to call a dealer who uses v

arious swaps. Yeah, that sucks. Thank you for coming. And, Willis, thank you for control of verticals and horizontals. Take us out of here. All right. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. I think the console or or a console versus PC is a such an ongoing thing. So we'll keep that chat in, continue into this card. Maybe I want to blow up the discord with that, but thank you everyone for tuning in on a Wednesday. It's quite a chatter when it's that different on a on a Wednesday tho

ugh. Yeah. After lunch. I'm sleepy. I know, right? It's like, wait, wait, wait. Turn back to me. I want to show you. Okay, go. I still still have the console and comfortable have it in my pocket. you go. you've ripped off the stick. crap, I did. my God. Did you really? Did you? so it was on a camera? Yeah. wow. It's a detachable all thumbstick. Everything is detachable. If you try or stick in your pocket or that's. It's Wednesday afternoon. no. They come off. They do. Come on. I guess I just nee

d to find it now. well that, that that's Wednesday for us folks. Thank you so much for tuning and we'll see you next time. By. It's not in my pocket I don't I that's not has to be in there.