[Introduction of the event in Spanish] Hi everyone, thank you for coming. I can't see
you, but hi. We know you're here to hear and speak to Gee Vaucher. You may know her because
all the art she’s produced over the course of five decades. The way we see it, if there's a
thread that connects all her creative output from art school and experimental outfits in the 60s,
working as an illustrator in New York in the 70s, of course Crass art and everything
she's done afterwards... If there's a thre
ad that connects all that, it would be her
persistence in staying true to her own ideas and the way she successfully
portrayed the human dilemma, often exposing contradictions and hypocrisies
of the world we are forced to inhabit. So, we think there's definitely a lot to talk about.
Let's start and let's do this: Hi, Gee. Could you bring the lights down? I can't see a thing.
Thank you. This one especially, the top one. [Lights go down] We would like to start from
the very beginning, and th
at would be your your childhood, your upbringing. We've read you
were born after the war, in post-war Britain, where DIY was not a choice, but a necessity.
Could you tell us a bit about that? I can answer that, I just about can hear
you. But you're projecting out there, there's nothing coming this way so I find it quite
hard to hear you. So yeah, about my childhood, yes, I was born in London
on the Lower Side, where most people worked for Ford's
Foundry. Ford's cars... That part of London
was built to house the workers
and I was born the last year of the war, 1945, so for the next nine years it was still
wartime really, because food was rationed... But I did very well because my father had
an allotment where he grew vegetables and we had a couple of chickens. My parents
were very inventive. And what about the landscape of that environment? What was it
like? Did it influence you somehow in your art? Well, the landscape was just rows and rows of
workers council houses. Govern
ment houses, small but with gardens and some bomb sites.
The school had been bombed. Around the corner there were fields that were left to
go wild, so perfect for growing up. I get the sense that in the middle of all this
adversity you found some kind of security, like interconnection, neighborhood solidarity...
In your interviews, in your biographies, you kind of stress
that inside all of that sorrow and all of that adversity you found comedy, humor, and
sometimes absurdity, and I'm wonde
ring whether when we look at your art there's always some kind
of optimism or point of light in the middle of all the corruption and all the isolation and
violence you're exposing in that art. I think, if we travel to countries that don't fit
into the first world, you very often find that it's the poorest people who give the
most, you know, and the area that I came from was very poor. They all had to leave the
center of London to come away from the bombing and there was little to
have arou
nd, so everybody shared, everybody made something from nothing. Not everybody, I have
to say, my parents were the best at that, but they would make things for other people, so the
whole street would be an exchange all the time. I thought that was how everybody lived. You grow
up thinking everybody shares and everybody gives, but then you realize it's not quite like that. But
it's never left me. You know, I just can't see any way forward with the world in the state that's
in at the moment, t
hat's for sure, unless we give, unless we share, unless we become kinder
people... There's not much hope, as far as I'm concerned, because
always greed, power, avarice will override your innate kindness which you're
born with. Every child gives you what they have and they get to a certain age where
they don't and they take it back again. So yeah, I very much believe in them, you know,
keeping the child within, keeping the curiosity, keeping the joy of life, the joy of
this world. It's a be
autiful world we live in, it's just fucked up by people. But that
doesn't mean beauty doesn't exist. It's just finding your way through it, really. And connected
to that, do you think art or creativity can help in doing this, in staying connected with the
inner child? Do I think that art can help? I think creativity and not just art; creativity
in everything that we do. It doesn't have to be the big arts, music, painting, all the rest of
it... It can be the way you make a cake, a cup of tea
, the way you wash up... If
it's creative, it's boundless and has so much potential. If you are doing all those
things and resenting it, then it's bad energy, it's bad news for everybody. So it's
everything that you do in the day. For me, it's a new experience,
it's a new way of approaching something. The washing up is not always
the same dishes, it's different... But yeah, I have the studio and I go in there and I
try to express something that has occurred to me. Sometimes it works, someti
mes it doesn't. But it
doesn't just happen in the studio, it happens... For me it happens all the time. It has to, because
that's what makes my art. It's how I approach other things, the simplest things. So, yeah,
it's like a way of looking at the world, really. So, we will continue speaking
about art and creativity then. Do you feel there's a difference between art
that encourages social transformation or that tries to look at the world in a new way and art
that's only provocative or shoc
king or empty? Do you see a difference there? Do I think art
is political? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, but rather... Do you see a difference
between art that's political in a way that provides a new way of looking at the world and
therefore can transform reality, so to speak, and art that's, well, not so political
or only provoking... I think all art is political, even if it's
bad art, in the sense that it's not really saying anything, it's got no passion
or it's got no depth or what
ever. My art is not always... My art isn't
overtly political, it's not party politics. It's about what I might see or feel is wrong
in society, and I try and approach it. It's rarely direct, you have to work at it to understand. This image −oh it's
not here at the moment, but the other image you had earlier that you've taken away.
People interpret that very differently. This one. That's been interpreted very
differently in America. When it was first used in America it was the Twin Towers a
nd people
were using it for the despair, the sadness, the horror of it all; but then it was used again with
Trump and it's a totally different meaning you're putting on to it. It's not despair. Well, it's despair, but...
All art is like that. You can't dictate how to see it, how to read it... You can get
direction and you might get some illumination, but I don't set out to do that.
In this sense, Gee, also in the day-to-day, as you were saying, not
only in art, but also in our day-to-day ex
periences, we feel that also in counter-cultural
events like this one and in resistance movements... We sometimes get the impression
that when we live in the gap, when we struggle in the edge and when we sustain contradictions,
we take risks and we somehow reject total coherence and we are in the most
uncomfortable position, because we are not purists, but we feel that there there's more richness
and more potential for transformation because we are dealing with contradiction in everyday
li
fe. Do you think that works for art too? No, not really. I think it only works
if you point it towards yourself. I don't think you can point at society
or governments or whoever it is; your mother or your.... Whatever. You have to look to
yourself, you really have to ask the questions. It's a painful journey, you know. It's things we don't
want to think about. There's things that you don't really understand. You
don't even know why you believe certain things. Was it your choice or was it th
e state, the church,
the school that made you think like this? So, you have to kind of start stripping
the onion. And try and find out where are you in all this. Every
person born has enormous potential and yet how many achieve it? How many
even begin to seek it? It's taken away from us by the state, by the school, by the
family... It's not done on purpose −well, the state does it on purpose, of course, but your parents
usually don't do it on purpose, but they can't see the potential outsid
e of the norm:
you need to get a job, you need to have two and a half kids, you need to have a mortgage,
you need to have this and that... And we know you don't have to do this; there's another way and you
have to find it, and it's not easy. Nobody says this is easy, it's incredibly hard
because you can't do it alone, so you have to find a person or a group of people where you
really can drop your egos, drop your fears, let go and go forward in a solid different way.
And it isn't easy, you
know, it's incredibly demanding and you can really
demoralize yourself sometimes because you think "Well, I've just done it again... I didn't need to
do that", but it's like incrementally you change it, you change it... It's not going
to change overnight. And I'm still changing, however old I am. But, you know,
each day there's something new, there's something to uncover, there's no perfection here.
It's kind of on and on; you get a new experience, you go to somewhere new, you
fall over an
d suddenly you've got to pick yourself up again, you know. How do you do that?
And there's no shame in any of it. You fail, you pick yourself up again; you
fail again, you pick yourself up again. That's the way it is. Sometimes you've got
people around you to help you; sometimes you're on your own. I do think creativity, though,
helps you a long way, whether you write, you play music, you do art, you make fantastic cakes...
As I say, it can be anything. That's a sort of guide for you, it's a
release
of some of that feeling that you actually can't put into words. You
can't do it yet, but you can draw it or play it and that makes a
lot of difference, I think. It gives you a better route somehow, a more solid route.
It gets you grounded somehow. It's your means of expression and you've got to
find it, because you have a means of expression and it isn't just punching people in the face, you know.
There's another way of doing that. And in that sense of guidance, as we are now
in t
his neoliberal context and we kind of think that we can question gender roles, we can
question traditional family, we can question many things right now −and that's fine, that's towards
freedom− but at the same time we feel that we have less and less structure... We don't feel we
build a community or a commitment. Can art or creativity give us some kind of meeting point, some
kind of guidance, some kind of solid solidarity? Um... I have a real problem with the digital age, I
wish I hadn't b
een born into it, quite honestly. I've had to learn from scratch because obviously
it's useful. We publish books and we do this, that and the other; we're still putting music
out, so you have to learn those tools because the printer will not accept a flat artwork anymore.
They may, but it will cost you a lot of money. Better if you put it on a stick and
they can just take it off. I'm still trying to figure the digital age and
people with their phones. I don't have one of those phones, I don
't want one of those phones.
I feel trapped by stuff like that and I just feel as if freedom is less and less and
less because of it. I could be totally wrong, I don't know, but I'm still trying to figure
it out and I do worry a lot. Especially for women when they're on the
phone; young girls... they're not really using their innate power of sensing when there's
danger because they're on this. It's not going to save you,
you've got to really be aware. There's danger all the time, you know
, and
it's kind of... how do you deal with that without being scared? I'm not scared
of the night, but I am pretty aware of the dark corners and there might be a lone guy
walking some distance behind you. You have to keep aware, the phone is not going to save you.
It has a possibility, but... I don't know, I just find that buying
into all of that you've bought into this whole structure −government structure, business
structure, capitalist structure... You can't get away from it, you really
can't. I've
just had a real problem booking a ticket to go home tomorrow because I didn't have a phone.
I didn't have this, I didn't have that, you know. Through my friend I've managed
to get the ticket, but it's like you're suddenly becoming a pariah if you haven't
got a phone and you can't download anything or take photos. And it's very strange, it's
really odd that you go into places where they only accept card. I won't... I tried to walk out
again because I don't want to pay by card. I
t's tracking mechanisms all the time.
If you've got one of these phones,
they know exactly where you are. People say, "Well, it doesn't matter, we've got nothing to hide"
and I think "That's not the point!". We are free spirits and we should be
free spirits, physically, mentally... I don't know, I'm still confused about it all. Connected to this, do you think
this whole digital environment affects children, because in your work,
I think, childhood and children are a recurrent motive. There
's a lot of kids
in your art and I'm guessing that you worry about this.
Do you think that, well, it affects the hierarchies or the environment
that children are growing in nowadays? I don't know. You see, it's strange because
when I was a child there was no television, then suddenly television was in the room.
So, I tried to relate to it like that. How strange that was. I mean, once we had a tiny
little nine inch screen, because that's what it was in the day, and there was only one channel.
And I remember my mother put it on. Every time she put it on I would sit still and I'd
sit really still looking at this thing and then I asked my mother one day, I said: "Can they see me?"
and she said "No!". She said she wished she said yes. I just jumped up and started running around
again, causing mischief. That's how naive you were. You just didn't
understand there was this new technology. And now I'm in the same position again,
I don't understand it. I have a real problem with these
gadgets.
I can't deal with it. And then I think they can actually see you and hear you now.
That's maybe the difference, now they do see you. Changing the subject a little bit, what do
you think about intimate art, art that shows your biography, your inner conflicts, your trauma,
whatever's in your mind or your feelings...? What about art that's alien to the academia,
that doesn't come... that goes to the outside but it comes from the inside. What do
you think about Art Brut, for example? I d
on't really like people like Lucian Freud
and I don't like his work at all. It's like hanging out all your angst. I don't work
if I'm really upset, I really don't. I don't want to share that in that way anyway.
Francis Bacon... Those guys just kind of lay it all out there. I know it is fine art,
it's brilliantly done, but it's not for me. I can't do that, I don't want to do
that, I don't want to show that sort of pain and confusion. I want to share something
that might inspire people to go
off and do something different. They're
inspired to act, you know. So, no. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of artists that
do that, but I can't say that I like it much. Okay. So, when you work do you have the sense
that there's an audience? No, no no no. I never paint for other people,
I paint for me. And if people want to share that or ask me to share it, then
I'm very happy to do that, but no, I couldn't work creating for an audience.
This is because of a little story I wanted to tell you ab
out this monument in Cáceres, which
is one of the few memorials for anti-fascist fighters in the Spanish State and once it
was set in the countryside someone shoot at it. So the author of the sculpture
said that someone had completed his art, meaning that we still have fascists in this state.
Do you feel that sometimes when you make art and someone receives it, do you feel there's
a conversation that somehow comes back to you and gives you inspiration as well.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes, wha
t one gets back from people wanting to see
one's work is invaluable. It's very inspiring or it's very revealing, or it can be anything.
But I think it's very important to listen to your audience, because they're the ones
that are looking at it. I can't say I know what my work's about, because it takes a
long time for me to understand what I've just done. It doesn't always reveal itself
straight away, so it can be a year or two later and I suddenly understand what I was trying to
get at. So
, sometimes the audience can inform you of something you don't know, which is good.
Is it important to you, for your art or art in general, to be accessible for people?
To be distributed by means that... Yeah. I never sell originals, I never have. I don't think
my work belongs in private collections. Not unless it's a public collection, like a museum.
In that sense, if I'm asked to do a show, I can choose what I like. I don't
have to ask anybody, it's there in the house, taking up a lot of
room,
but it's there. I really wouldn't want to sell to private people; as much
as I might be able to, it doesn't interest me. We were talking about childhood and
family. I work in Psychology and in that context sometimes parents come really concerned
and say: "My child is really really angry" and sometimes they want to change
that and I tell them that people and boys and girls sometimes need to transform their
melancholy into something that moves them, into something that allows to break
out and
to do something with that feeling and to change something.... And sometimes I get the impression,
I don't know anything about art, but I get the impression that people that talk through art
sometimes do that kind of transformation that mobilizes feelings into action. Do you feel
it that way? I feel, with children, when they're really angry, I think nature does
the trick. You take them out to the countryside or a mountain or the seaside... I think nature
is very giving, very natural
, and a child just wants to punch the shit out of a tree or something. That's
fine, the tree has no emotion about this, go ahead. It's not going to fall down. I mean, where I live we have children coming there who have gained
enormous confidence with themselves, with their lives, because they're free to roam the fields
in safety and they've learned about the countryside. They know what to pick, what
not to pick; how to eat, how not to eat... I think it's not just for children, it's the
same
with adults. If an adult is really... I mean, I think a city just sucks, quite honestly.
On every level. I love the cities, but I would never live in a city. I just
think they demand far too much and I always encourage people to move out, go to the
countryside, find some peace and balance. Come back in once you've found that, but you can't
live with that imbalance in a city. It will drive you mad. You'll start
getting yourself into real big trouble, because it gets physical with a lot of pe
ople. You
start drinking or you start the drugs. You've done that and suddenly your life's over.
I very much believe in taking people that are going through a really rough time or are
completely lost... I take them into the countryside. You drag them up a mountain.
Physically they get exhausted, but once they get to the top and look around
they're just like "Whoa!" You don't know how it's going to affect them, but you do know
it's not going to do them any harm. It's kind of like giving them
a sort of break,
a little space to maybe realize something. It's once again offering a new way of looking at
things, somehow. Yeah, a new experience on every level: physically, spiritually, mentally.
I'm guessing your own surroundings are really important to your creativity too?
Yeah, where I live is very important to my creativity. Can you tell us a bit about your garden? Because
we know you have this garden... Dial House? Yes. Oh, Dial House is just going through a transition
at the mome
nt; we're giving it away. We were working towards making a trust. A legal trust. And it got into lots of...
As you can imagine, if it's legal, [there's] solicitors and all the bullshit that goes with it. So we've
decided to strip away that and go with the word "trust". So, this is what we're doing with some
people that we "trust". It's going to be based on that and hopefully when... −I live with
a guy called Penny Rimbaud, so once we've gone the people that will be in the house will
continue
the spirit of the house, which is an open house. That's great.
Well, we hope so, but there's nothing you can do about it once you're gone, so
we try to pull everything in place. Well, you can't control everything,
so let's hope it goes as planned. Okay. Sorry, we have a set of questions, but
we're doing it different, which is great... Okay, I'm changing subjects slightly.
Going back to your art, to what you've done in the course of the years. I don't know
if it's our impression, if it's t
rue or not, or if it's something that people have written about,
but there seems to be a transition in your work from an openly political art
to art that's way more introspective or personal. Well, obviously the work
I did with Crass, with the band, was reflective of what we were doing at the time.
Yeah, we have some pictures. I mean, the whole band was galvanized
towards trying to change the world, like you do. And we could say on that respect,
in 1984 we thought, "If we say it again, it's
just repeating". We did it the best we could
and it's still there, you know, and nothing's changed, of course. And then when
we finished with the band a lot of us had to take care of elderly parents, so suddenly it
was more domestic, more small; a small world, not the world out there. And I suppose from that
my work changed. [Interviewer requests image] This is just messing about with pastels,
because all the the work I did for Crass was with a very very fine brush,
which was like a band a
round my head in the end; so I'm trying to break away.
It's not very big, these portraits, on paper. It's just pastels, which are very quick and easy
to work with, so... Loosening up. Then things have got bigger. Yes, that's nice.
Do you think that all the decisions you took throughout your life and your relationship
with the industry, with institutions or with the academy... Do you think those decisions
have also evolved during your life? Do you think that made your path a
lonely road, do
you think it's like that? Because you took these solid decisions...
Do I think I'm on a lonely road, did you say?
I wouldn't say I was lonely, no. But I am quite ignorant of what's going on in the art world.
It doesn't particularly interest me. When I do feel like going to the galleries, I
usually go to the traditional ones because there's old masters that I really love to see that give me a real lift.
If I go into a small gallery with somebody's work up, I just... It leaves me cold.
I try
really hard to understand what young people are trying to put on the walls, but it seems
so devoid of soul and I just can't figure it. It's all clever ass stuff, but I'll keep trying
because it's important; but I do go and see some of my favorite old masters and mistresses.
And who are they, can you tell us? Nah, a mixture, really. Picasso, some
of the French women artists during the Impressionists. An assortment, really.
It's all about how I'm feeling. Going back to the different
elements
in art and even techniques, we think your art has the ability to undermine
the great societal narratives. Good, yes, I think that too. Great, we agree on that!
If I do anything, it's about undermining. Just keep undermining. And it's so subtle sometimes
that those up there don't see it at all. We do see it and we like it.
I realize that young people do see it and maybe take inspiration from that, but, yeah, some things all you can do
is undermine −the structure that we have. Because you can
't beat it face on, not anymore.
We have some pictures [interviewer asks for them]. We have some questions about Crass,
but I prefer these ones... Talking about undermining the structure,
we have a few questions about that. We see one of such
structures could be the family, as something that conditions us from early
on, and I think we can see that in some of your collage work, such as this, "Domestic Violence". How do you feel about that, about family
and trying to reflect on that? Well, it
intrigues me, what is behind
everybody's front door, because domestic violence is an enormous problem in every country.
Especially in Britain, during the covid lockdown, it went up and we did a series of
recordings that raised money for a refuge. It's called refuge. It's
particularly for domestic violence victims. And it was good, very successful,
raised a lot of money and hopefully helps somebody along the way. But yeah,
domestic violence always interests me because it has so many differe
nt ways of
obliterating someone, whether it's mental stress, physical stress... The physical one, everyone thinks
domestic violence is that, but it's very subtle; it can be really subtle, especially against women.
But that's not to say it doesn't happen to blokes too, because if the woman's
domineering and controlling, then it can happen the other way around.
But obviously it happens more with women. I just wonder why we tolerate it.
I just can't understand how we can tolerate it and assum
e that every
house is a nice, comfortable, happy space, but it's not. Well, there's some denial on our part.
We don't want to see it. Yes, it's not to say that
every family is like that, but there's quite a lot out there that
shouldn't be in existence. It should be dealt with somehow.
Or the victim ought to be given some way of escaping the problem.
Very often it's private, it's not reported.
How do you explain to whoever you go to, which is the police, your mental anguish?
You'll just be
laughed at. So people don't and a lot of people
die from it too, which become real victims of it. So yeah, it does appear
in my work and, obviously, nothing's in isolation. Domestic violence
is also war; war is also capitalism; capitalism is also... They're all connected somewhere along the line.
And somewhere in all this mess that we've got ourselves into,
we need to survive and not just survive by eating food; survive by knowing what our
potential is to change this, to make this a much bet
ter world for the next generation.
We have got a next generation sitting here, the baby might have a question for us.
They'll have the opportunity to take the mic too, but in that sense,
little children sometimes, when they don't have a language yet, they sometimes
report abuses or violence within their drawing. Sometimes you know they're going through violence at home
because they draw. Oh, yeah, it's very much in the drawing, absolutely. And not in the drawing,
but in the colors that they
choose. A child that's going through a trauma
does not pick yellow and orange. They pick very dark colors. Interesting.
There's a message there. And can you tell us a little
about animal rights and what's your take on our relationship with animals?
It's appalling! [Image change]
I kind of gave up meat 60 years ago, and fish, so... I prefer to see fish
swimming and I live on a farm, I prefer to stroke the cows. That's my choice.
I'm not saying everybody else should give up meat, you make
your own choice. I don't have a problem with people eating meat or fish; it's usually the other way around.
It used to be the people that ate meat and fish who would have a problem with you
eating only vegetables. It's ready to change; the whole thing has shifted because people
have become more aware of food, of their health, and that's very important. It's incredibly important.
If you're not keeping healthy and thinking straight,
then how can you blossom? You can't. So, yes, I have a good
relationship
with animals. I think they like me. Okay, I think we only have two questions about
Crass, because we know that's in the past and a lot has been told about it already, but we're also
curious, so we have a couple of questions. Crass were active as a collective in the late 70s, beginning of the 80s, and there were
a lot of social movements happening at the same time. We were wondering
if you had any connections with them or not, or if there was a conscious
decision to have relatio
nships with them or not. Well, yeah, there were a lot of movements
that were coming to the fore again. But you have to remember that, because
Penny Rimbaud and I are of a later age, we went through the 60s and we
were at art school in 61, for five years, and it was rising, rising, rising to Paris 68.
We really thought we could change the world. There is an exhibition on at the moment,
I can't remember what the place is called... My friend would remember.
It's a brilliant exhibition that an
Argentinian guy has put together of all the demonstrations
[that] were taking taking place in different countries during the 60s −the late middle to late 60s. It's incredibly brutal in places, because the photographs
are from government archives. So it's police brutality, in South Africa or in Sudan.
And then you've got all that police brutality in Paris,
London... But it's worth going to see. It's in a little gallery right opposite
Ciutadella park and it's really worth going to see it, read
it and see the films
that are showing there. So when we come to the 70s and 80s
we've got this sense of "maybe we can do it again, maybe we can do it this time".
So, yeah, we did have a lot of connection with the different groups that were rising. There was animal rights,
there was the women's lib rising again. All the women in the band
took part in Greenham Common and the fights there. Stop the City, where
everybody was acting the clown and shutting the City down for a day...
You couldn't
do that now because it's the digital age. You can't do anything like that,
they are there before you. I've lost the thread of this question, what was it?
I think you answered the question already, it was about...
What I was going to say was that, yes, it was going really well and we'd made
some money, so we put it into an autonomous site in London, it was right by the
river Thames. It was a place to have gigs and have meetings and we said, "We're not running it; we put the money up,
but we'
re not running it, you run it". It lasted two years because everybody,
all the fractions, all the different groups thought their group was right, this group was wrong...
And it just became this horrible infighting. It totally collapsed. It was a very good experiment
in how not to do it. It was really sad.
Did you feel disappointed when that happened? Yeah, we certainly weren't going to step in
because that wasn't the deal. We said, "We give you the money, you start the autonomous site"
and
there you go. That was that. Well, the second question we have about Crass
is that you seem to reject ideologies somehow and also personally
you've shied away from being labeled as a pacifist, feminist... What's your take on that today?
The same, I don't feel like an "-ist" of any sort. We weren't
anarchists. We might have practiced anarchy, but we weren't anarchists
with a follow-the-leader type of thing. It's a label that was put heavily on us,
so we thought we'd run with it and have a bi
t of fun. It's the same with
feminists; I'm not a feminist. That's not to say I don't fight for the
rights with it, but I feel more like a humanist. If I'm gonna fight, I'm gonna fight
for everybody here, but I know there's particular different projects, different problems
in each fight. And if we're working with a lot of women, then the problems are different
and we'll approach it differently. The same as we did with the second
album. Was it the second album? "Penis Envy" It was the women t
hat really wanted to
put that together and say what we wanted to say. So, I'm not fond of "-isms".
I'm not a marxist, socialist, anything... Just leave me alone,
but if you want help, I'll give it. I have a question, this one is not prepared,
but now that you mentioned "Penis Envy"... I have the image of the cover very clear in my mind
and I remember reading somewhere that some of the reactions to that cover
were shock or "wow!" and then you said, "We just took something that existed as it
is
and put it in a new light", so to speak. Well, that was very common with the
collage work. I would take very familiar objects but place them how they would
not usually be scened together. Somehow that triggers thinking.
The cover for "Penis Envy", you said? That was... I think I must have been
ahead of my time, because the figure, the angel, is androgynous.
It has no sex, right? Again, it was seen to illustrate
what we were trying to say, so that's the way it came out.
Do you still play w
ith images and symbols like that? Placing them in different ways so
it creates a new narrative, as in you take a pre-existing thing that we usually read
in a certain kind of way and then you misplace it and boom!...
I think the placement and the color and the sort of ambience
that a picture makes is what gives it the chance to say something else for somebody,
if I'm understanding your question. Obviously, for me that's quite important, because it's not only for the people that look at it,
i
t's also for me. I suddenly place something next to it and I think, "Wow, that's weird,
that's saying something very weird". Do I want that or don't I want it?
Do I leave it or don't I say anything? One could say it's a trick.
I suppose I started painting very finely because a lot of the subject matter
people didn't want to look closely at. But because they couldn't figure out how it was done,
they'd get drawn in, looking closer, and then suddenly realized it was a hand hanging off
or some
thing. It was a rotten trick, but it did the trick. It started the questions, which is good.
Yeah, opens up the conversation, kind of. Off the record, because this is not prepared either.
I was thinking, do you think, because the messages in your art are kind of
universal −religion, capitalism, consumerism...? Well, yeah, I think they're universal
until you hit the indigenous populations that are still in kind of isolation. You kind of hope they survive in the way
they want in that isolation
. I think there is a turning with that, but, yeah,
I suppose every country has been tainted with greed and capitalism. Because people today, even the youth,
can identify with those images you were throwing at people at that time and I'm thinking that
that's maybe because things haven't changed that much. They haven't changed at all. It got worse!
But the more and more it gets worse is when it tips over the edge and people will get
out in the street. That happened in Britain with Thatcher. S
he tried to bring
a draconian tax back into the country, which was like 200 years old. Every head in the house would be taxed, even to the... you know.
It was just her last stitch stand and it was the tipping point for everybody getting on the street
and setting fire to everything they could find, quite honestly.
And that's what got rid of her. I don't want it to get worse, but it's
going to have to get worse to get people off their fucking asses and out there and realizing they have a voic
e,
they have a say. France is really good at it. The French are always really organized and
they don't mess around, even though the police, in Paris especially, are brutal.
And in Colombia, my friends from Colombia and the demonstrations there...
You should go and see that exhibition again, there's a picture of the Colombian police and
they looked like something out of Star Trek, [with] this huge black armor on. It's horrendous,
it's unbelievable. Everything is shielded, everything is black
, you cannot see the person behind either.
They're just wielding their rods. I think what's happened, in Britain especially −I know Britain mostly, because I come from there−
[is that] people have been tricked and bought the lie. They've got their
mortgage, they can't defect on that because if they defect, they lose their home;
if they lose their home, they lose the family, so it's Thachterism all the time in our country
at the moment. It just never stops. She put things in place that you c
an't escape.
You're frightened, you can't do it, so you're trapped in this whole financial system,
this ownership system, this "buy-buy-buy" system, these new shopping malls
that nobody has got the money for and yet... what they do spend they don't have.
People live on this credit, twenty thousand pounds some of people. I think, "How can you live in debt?"
I don't even like owing five pence. And it's a different way of thinking.
Someone said, "Well, everybody does it". The banks allow you to
spend and
then you have to... You're just trapped all
the time. Is it worth it? Not really. No, it isn't worth it, not in the long run;
not if we want to change stuff. It's not worth it, but I'm guessing
it's easy to fall into such a trap because... Of course it's easy! They make it very easy, but
when you have a car accident how hard is it to get money out of the insurance company?
How hard is it to get your money back? They make it easy for you to take, but, you know...
It's kind of cra
zy, it's all back to front. We were talking about the tipping point
where people say "Enough". Could you fathom or imagine a situation, in
England for example, for that to happen? Well, it's very strange because
I was looking at the French protests against the retirement age −wanting to put it from 62
to 63 or 65, I can't remember, and I was thinking, "Wow, look at them out on the street". In England
they're putting it from 65 to 67 and nobody's made a peep about it. Nothing. I think,
"Wow
, why would you not protest against this?" So, you're having to work to
67 now. If you're nearly 70 you don't get more than two week holidays a [year].
It's like, "Oh, my goodness, no". I don't blame the French, fighting at this.
It's not right, they've paid all their money and they should be getting their pension when
they retire at that age and live a life that's much more agreeable to them. But there
you go. No, England will need a lot to tip it. I don't know what it would be here.
It's
the same, we're asking the same questions. Here we have a problem with
pensions also and no one's in the street. A minority is on the streets, but then some
years ago there was this tax rising in Chile and everything exploded, so we asked the same
question: Why? Why isn't it all burning here? Well, as I said, I think everybody's
been led down the path and bought the lie and they've got stuck now. It's hard to
get out of and the banks have made it so easy. I don't know what the answer is.
I
mean, we're back to square one: you have to look to yourself. Is it
worth it? Is there another way? We were talking about creativity
and art before, do you think art or culture in general could trigger that to
happen? Like people go "click"... Or has it limitations? Obviously it does, but...
I don't know, it's different things that trigger people in different times. In the 60s
it was poetry, it was the word. It was the word that was triggering people:
stand up, jazz, with all that stuff..
. And then it changed and reading
was the thing, and then music was the thing that triggers everybody. I don't know
what's going to take to to trigger it again. It's kind of...
Somebody like Banksy comes along and puts, you could say, political art
on the wall, but it's too humorous, it's too comfortable, it's too easy. It's the only way
I've seen it... Well, I've been in Palestine and the stuff he did there is powerful. It makes
no sense, in a way, back here and now it's got softer and softe
r. I like it but it's too easy,
it's far too easy. And everybody feels the emotion of it;
the little girl with the balloon or the guy with the flowers to the place... We all know that
and we will probably agree with it, but it's not enough. No, it's not. Well, I don't know either,
but it's good to think about it. It's populist art, really. Yeah.
So, Gee, regarding recommendations, we really like what you do
and what you speak about... If you could tell us about something that you think we shoul
d go and
see, something artistic, or a film, or a director, or a book... No, I couldn't do that. I have just
mentioned that exhibition because I saw it yesterday and it was suggested by a friend
who'd bought me the book, but I can't remember where it's at. My friend's at the back somewhere;
if we ask him he'll know exactly where it is. Foto Colectania. Okay, there it is. That's the place.
Thank you. I think this is all on our part and
we will open the time for the questions... Wait, I just w
anted to ask you what are you
doing now, or which are your next steps... Which are your plans? What are you doing at the moment?
If there's something that you want to share... My plans are on hold at the moment
for personal reasons. If anybody is in Madrid, I'm part of a show there
in June; I think it's on until August. It's an institution, it's Reina Sofía, but they've been
bending backwards to allow me to do what I want to do, so it's been
very good in that respect. I made a new film, the
re's two films, a book
that I'd made and four paintings in the exhibition. So if you're in
Madrid around that time, I am. Yes, Reina Sofía have been... it's a huge institution...
It might be an interesting exhibition. It's called Machinations and
it's based on the writing of... I've forgotten!... Nevermind. We have
the internet, we can check everything. But it should be a very interesting
exhibition, I hope so. And if you're in London there is an exhibition
starting in November called "Women
in Revolt" and that should be pretty good. I've got a couple
of pieces in that. It's at the Tate Britain. I don't really like the way they're
sectioned in the exhibition. I don't like sectioning things up because everything is
connected, but we agree to disagree with the curator. Still, it should be really
interesting. It's a lot of work from movements. The feminist movement fighting
for abortion rights, or fighting for home care rights, fighting this, that and the other.
So, I'm in the dome
stic violence section. It should be interesting,
it starts in November. So, you know: Madrid, London...
Yeah, you never know! Let's start with the questions.
You can can ask in English and also in Spanish because we can translate.
Got a microphone? They can take one of these! We lost the microphone, sorry.
You've got a loud voice, anybody want to shout? It's good for the lungs.
Oh, there it is! Don't be shy, come on! Hi. I have a question regarding
a more technical aspect of your work, becau
se when
I first was exposed to your art, I was fascinated by the collagey look of some
of your early paintings and, as you said before, I didn't know how they were made,
so now that I can ask you, I'd like to know if you used photos or if you created collage
before painting to use as references, or if you just draw the images and you got this
collage look just by your influences. The first stuff I did for Crass were all
paintings, like "Feeding of the 5000", "Nagasaki Nightmare" and blah,
blah...
Yes, I would make up a collage or slip in my own photos and work from that. Some are paintings with
a bit of collage, so I got so bored... I wasn't really bored! It's just... "Nagasaki
Nightmare" I did it on purpose, I put the real people as photographs and I put the painting
as the shit heaps behind it. It's just symbolic for me. It doesn't
really mean a lot to other people. I didn't intend to paint so finely,
but I found myself doing it. I had to go with it, really. And then
some of t
he work is all collage stations. It's all collage, is it?... No, not stationed.
Oh, I can't remember now. It's mixtures. And the collage... I was living in New York
for a couple of years, working, before Crass. I'd never done collage, but I had done fine painting,
and because I suddenly got lots of commissions and there was no way...
The deadline was like tomorrow at 10. I had to employ collage and I felt I was
cheating. I thought, "Oh, dear, I'll have to cheat". But I got so into it.
I lo
ve it now. I really enjoy collaging in all different ways and mixing it with
different stuff. It's not really cheating. More questions?
Who's got the microphone? Come on! I had a question about working with a
collective or on your own, because I'm on my final year of Fine Arts here in Barcelona
and the university has never encouraged us to work with a collective. What really
pisses me off is [that] everything has to be individualistic and since you worked
for so many years in a collective...
I couldn't quite understand the question, sorry,
did you hear? I'm having trouble too. I didn't quite understand the question, sorry.
[He explains question in Spanish] Okay. He's studying Fine Arts in the university
and he feels that they encourage them to work on an individual level and not as a group
or as a collective. And that bothers him a lot. The question is, what do you think about that
and is it important to work as a collective? I think, if the project you're working on is open
to
other people, then work with others. The teachers, it's got nothing to do
with them. You do it your way. If you don't feel it's right, then you change it. If you
want to work alone, you work alone; if you don't want to work alone, you work with other people.
It's as simple as that. You go with what your heart is telling you.
It's really important [that] you do that. Yes? Yes. Or no?
When I was in Art School it was like they're trying to tell you what to do.
I couldn't bear to be told what to
do. I still can't, actually. They would leave me
alone because I felt that doing it the way I wanted to do it and failing I understood
the mistake. You understand more by doing it wrong in your terms than doing it
right. You know when you've got what's inside out and it's saying it.
But when you make the mistakes you learn a hell of a lot of how to maneuver
around and get deeper inside to bring what you're trying to say onto the piece of paper,
or canvas, or sculpture, or whatever it is. P
iece of music... There's not one way of doing this
and they shouldn't be telling you to work alone. It's got nothing to do with
them. It's a creative course you're on. So, be creative.
I think that's the bottom line today. [Encourages audience in Spanish] You said that what happened in the 70s and 80s −punk,
anarchism, movements...− didn't change anything, but I think it's also interesting because, look
at you, you're talking here to all these people that have come here, who dress
and think
in a certain way, and read about what was done during those years;
all the music that we still listen to. Many young people, books and ideas,
aesthetics also... I was just wondering, what's your opinion about...
About history? Of things that have gone before you? Yeah, look at that photo. There was an aesthetic
that in that time was new, but for us it's not new. [Back then] it was a new world
belonging to the people; for us it's not the same. I was wondering what's your relation with that.
W
ell, just because you've seen this and you think you know it,
it's not always the case. I can go back to an old master again. If I go back to a painting that I know
very well and I get a great sense of joy from it, suddenly something else happens. I've seen something
else, something deeper has come through. You're not going to get it all in one, ever.
You go to where you might find inspiration or peace.
There's poets that I go to, there's words that I go to, there's music I go to...
"I need t
o hear this because I need to hear it". I think it's a mistake
to think you know anything. I don't know anything, really. I know how
my heart works and how my energy works, but I don't know fuck all. I really don't.
And I go see an old painting or I read a poem again and I suddenly understand
a little bit more every time. I don't know if you're referring to this [points at image].
It's not that deep, but there are a lot of things happening in it.
But they are very English, so you may not get
a lot of the jokes,
like the Corgi, the queen's dog. To answer your question,
I just think it's a mistake to think you know something,
because there's always more. There's always something you haven't
grasped and it can be really... I don't know what's the word. Humbling, really. Suddenly you think, "Oh, god,
I've looked at that for the last 30 years and I've never got that feeling from this".
Suddenly I see it. Was it what the artist was trying to show? I have no idea,
I just happened to ha
ve picked up something greater, bigger, deeper. And I think that's
the same with everything, quite honestly. Otherwise it's so boring, isn't it?
You think you know it all. I'm not saying you personally, I'm just saying
one goes around looking but not seeing. There's a great difference
between looking and seeing. A big difference. Everybody looks because
they want to know where they're going to get to. They're looking up there, they haven't seen all this
stuff on the way. They haven't seen a
ny of that. If you say to them, "What did
you just pass?", they wouldn't be able to tell you because they're not looking,
they're looking beyond or at the floor. How do you see? I get really
tired in cities because I'm looking here, there, everywhere.
I get really tired because I'm scrutinizing. I'm trying to see what's happening here.
I like cities because of that, really. It gives me a lot of new information. Does that
answer the question? I'm not sure... [Explains his point in Spanish]
He's talking about how so many
people nowadays still do collage, wear this kind of identity
that you were pioneers in putting through and you belong to the generation that were
creating all that in the first place and some other people just received
that legacy. He thinks it's interesting... Oh, yeah, it is really interesting. It has inspired
you to take another step forward, another route. You're not doing it exactly
the same as me, there'd be no point, but you've taken the platform and
you'
ve left off in the direction that you want to take it, which is fantastic.
I think that's what it's all about. It doesn't have to be images, it can
be words, it can be anything. It inspires people to take it on
another route; it's always growing. It's never stopped. You can go right
back in history and it's never stopped. That inspiration to take it
on another journey. The question also included this thing
about how did you feel about this specific legacy... The punk thing. Because we know it'
s in the past, sort of,
but we are still doing things, so there's like... Not a difference, but a contradiction.
Maybe because we know we are not the first... I wasn't the first one! You may have taken the inspiration from some of my work,
but I wasn't the first. There's hundreds of people before me, that's how it grows
all the time. And you're now part of that legacy. You're taking it in the next step.
You'll inspire someone else, that's how it is. I wasn't the first; you just happened to ha
ve
got something from my work and now you're running with it, but that's part of
the history. It will continue. There'll be people after you, after the next one...
If we survive that long. [Closes question in Spanish] Any more questions? There's one
over here, lady in the white... Hi. First of all, thanks for the really
good work that you have done. Second, my question is...
Basically, I'm coming from Latin America and since I arrived here, to this part of the world, I've seen very
"pointy"
differences between how people like us, youth or whatever, even elder
people too, see the political things that are going on in the world. For example, in Latin
America we see what is happening also in this part of the world. It's
not [only] what is in our continent. But the question here, regardless of that,
is that here in Europe, at least for what I've lived so far, I don't see a lot of movement,
regardless of what's happening in other parts of the world −not only
in Europe or even clos
e to Asia. Well, my question is... because you were saying
that you lived in New York, for I don't know how long... But you got to travel there. Were you able to see differences?
[You also said] that you don't see or feel yourself as a feminist, or a "-ist" in general.
Has there been something for you that has stopped your own way of interpreting
some things that you experienced back in those days, when you were
living in that part of the world? Something like a stop for you to say, "Oh, maybe
I shouldn't be talking about this." I'm asking this because I already asked these two other artists...
I don't understand... Well, the question is, if you have experienced
something that in your mind was like, "Oh, I shouldn't be talking about this,
because this doesn't concern me. Maybe I'm not part of this other part
of the world, mentally, politically..." Has something stopped you
creating artwork in these terms? Sorry, I'm a little bit lost
because you're not very clear... I only caught
half of that.
I think I got it, correct me if I'm wrong. Well, the world is big and there's many
places. She's from Latin America and wanted to know if you ever did anything and then go,
"Oh, maybe I don't know much about this context, I shouldn't go into that."
How careful are you when approaching... Oh, I'm really careful. Not a lot of my work is about
other countries, because I don't know them. I do know that domestic violence is worldwide.
I do know that certain things like war, crime,
drugs and drinking are worldwide,
but I don't know the politics of the country; how that affects the individual on a
daily basis, so I don't really go there. The only two countries I've ever gone deeply into
are Northern Ireland and Palestine, which they're very... we say similar,
but they're very bound together, they always have been. With their
radical people that are fighting for independence. There's a
very strong link between the IRA at their time and the Palestinian Liberation
Front. S
o, yeah, I wouldn't go anywhere near a lot of countries because I just
don't know the politics in that sense. A lot of my work is universal in terms of
its subject matter. There's a few that I've just gone full out for an anti-war thing.
There was one... Can we change the image? It's a bit boring, this one. The "Still Life"...
[Interviewer asks for the image] Yeah, that one's just an obvious war picture. "Still life with nude" is a term that's used
in English art schools. A still life with nu
de is like
a vase of flowers with a cup of tea next to it. It's a very English
term and I thought "still life" was a strange term for that sort of thing,
so I added it to something that was really still. We'll move again...
Something like "Your country needs you" is an old piece of wording from WWI,
but everybody gets the point because everybody is aware of the WWI sting
at pointing at a recruitment photo. That's what it was. "You need to join the army
and get killed," that sort of thing. Bu
t to answer your question, no, I haven't
done anything about South America in party politics terms. I keep an eye on it,
but [there's] nothing I can say about it. [Audience member asks questions in Spanish] There's three questions in that. [To fellow interviewer]
Do you have notes for the first one? Can you do that? First of all, there are many artists that stay
in the market place, they exhibit their art, they're into buying art, and
maybe you are too, [No!] but what do you think about your
creations being reproduced
again and again and maybe losing their quality sometimes?
There's nothing you can do about it. It's reproduced so badly in so many places
all over the world that I could be chasing it all my life. And I've got a better life
than that, so they get on with it and they make the money. There's nothing
we can do about it, so I feel okay. At first I got very annoyed, especially if they
changed the image and added things to it. Most people just do it straight,
so it's fi
ne even if it's badly done. The second was... About Crass, about the time with Crass.
Did you listen to the music you were making and to what you put out with
Crass records? Did you like it or listen to other bands from the same period?
Yeah, I feel that what we did was great. I couldn't not hear it because my studio
was next door to the rehearsal room. Once we really got into it I had to move studios
because the brush would be going like this as they rehearsed. So I had to go
to the end of
the garden and work there. But I really loved what we did,
I thought it was fantastic. I don't like all of it, but I think
it did its job very well. And we did our job very well as
a group of people. We channeled our energies and
our insight towards what we did. The rule was, if you felt really strongly
about a song, or a line, or an image, you said so and it was dropped. But I was
given free range, really. All I needed to know was, "Give me the songs as you write them
so I can get an ide
a of what this album is about." That was my way of working and then
I'd stroll away down the garden and work. He asked if you liked some other bands that came
later, like The Exploited or Discharge? No. I'm not really fond of punk music. I liked the energy of some, but it's not something I put on
to listen to and relax to. Definitely not. But I'm really happy that
it's still going. We still get asked to play at Rebellion. As different... not Crass.
But Steve Ignorant goes around with his thin
g. The last time we were up there,
we were given the opera house, which was great. We did an opera and it was really good.
Punks sat there really still. We thought they were gonna say, "Owe us a living!"
They were really respectful, sat quietly and listened and watched the whole thing.
It was really good, yeah. It was nice; beautiful opera house in gold and red...
Rebellion is good, if you've never been to Rebellion, you should go.
It's run by very good people. [Replies in Spanish] He said
he's never been there but he
doesn't have an interest. The last one was, what do you think about Crass' reunion?
Crass what? Reunion, some years ago. Well, it wasn't Crass. The one at the
Queen Elizabeth Hall? That was separate people in the band performing with
lots of other bands and an English choir. We had all sorts of... We had reggae, we had everything.
It was a big concert against the Iraq War. We were asked to give, so... It was very good.
Could have been better, but yeah, it was ok
ay. First off, thank you very much for
coming and thank you to all the organizers and people involved
in putting this [together]. And and thank you as well for the things you've said,
it's been inspiring and also reassuring. I wanted to ask though,
with the explosion of the AI, have you been affected directly? Has work been
published that's been claimed to be yours? And what do you think is going to happen
with this whole AI copying out? Oh, I don't know, I've no idea. I don't really
thi
nk about it a lot in that sense because I've got too much to do
and I want to get on with that. It's affected us in the sense, as I said
earlier, that we have to produce things differently for the printer. We still... We cut the records and master them
at Abbey Road, but they've got the latest stuff. You can do ridiculous
things with it now. Penny's always up there working away, so the digital
age has come to music as well. We're putting out an old recording, not Crass,
but we need to slow it d
own, which you can do; but if you slow things down, the tone
goes down with it. But you can slow it down and then you can re-tune it now. It's as easy
as that. It's quite extraordinary. There's so many tools that are exactly
like Photoshop in the music business. So yeah, it's affected in good ways.
I don't really do collage on Photoshop. I can build up a cover...
I do a lot of CD and LP covers still. I can set it all out in InDesign.
I've had to learn all that because, as I say, you have to
present it
to the printer in a different way. But otherwise I don't really think about it.
I know that a lot of my work is up there and floating around. I don't know how
they've got a hold of it. I have to let it go. You can tell a program, "I want a piece of art in this style..."
Yeah, probably, but it won't have any soul... That's why it's interesting to show the
originals, because they're paintings and collage is all done by hand,
touched. It definitely has a presence,
from just a print. T
hat's important, but yeah, I'm sure
they could do all sorts of things. I can't concern myself with that,
I've got my garden to keep and I've got work to do and
I just have to get on. There's one there, look. Been patient. I wanted to thank you for coming and for sharing
your thoughts. I found them very interesting. I'm gonna try to ask you
something in my crappy English, sorry. I actually wanted to confront something you said
about the tipping point, about how people can start revolting and it
's some kind of
"worst is better" for arriving to this point. I think the opposite. I think we may be [bad]
now and getting worse all the time. Things are not changing and we are not arriving
to this point. I think that what is happening is that we are getting more used to it and state
capitalism, the system doesn't need so much violence as they used before. Where I want to go is,
I think your art, your music, your messages had some value at that time to give some energy
or some power to peopl
e to revolt, and I think we need to keep going on this way. That's my
thoughts and I wanted to know what's yours. Well, if you're saying that it's harder,
it's got worse... It's tightening up on everybody. Every
country in Europe is tightening up on the individual. They know exactly what's going on
and what your preference is, whether you like pink or blue. It's all that crap.
But the tools for getting you away from the lie are still the same. The
tools are nature herself, sitting alone... It'
s just sitting quietly. Stop.
Just sit quietly and let things run through your head, through your body.
Those tools are yours, you were born with a facility. It's all out there. You don't
have to sign up to some class of yoga. If it's what you want to do, that's
fine, but you can do it without anything. It's out there, you just go and look for it. Seek it.
And sit with it and see what comes. People are rushing around all the
time. In England that never stops. And you say, "Stop." Sit. Just refle
ct on what's
happened in your day, what's happened in the last hour. Can you remember
Can you tell me the sense of it? You speak to yourself, just talk to yourself.
"What's my diet like? Is it driving me mad because I'm eating bags of sweets?"
Or is it, "Have I eaten any greens this week?" It's as simple as that.
It's so domestic. Just check how you're running your life. "I've added one bottle of wine
too much." I mean, I drink wine when I come here because I like to drink it here, but I maybe
have
two glasses of wine a month when I'm home. But it's a treat when I come here because
my friend gets me a bottle of wine. But if I was to do that every day
at home I'd probably be getting a little bit ill. And, of course,
as you get older you have to listen to your body. It's changing.
I'm nearing 80. I've got to pace myself differently. I'm gonna do
what I'm gonna do, but I can't do it with the same fast force. I can do it with the same
force, but I can't do it so fast. I have to tread my
way through because
I'm gonna get this done. You think, "I've forgotten to eat certain
things that I need to eat because brains are not going to function here." It's
very simple, but people don't stop and think, "How's my body doing? Does it
need something? Tell me, what do you need or what don't you need?" People
have lost contact with their bodies in Britain. I don't know about Spain, because
the meal together is still very important. You still have extended family; you still have a
lot of t
hings that don't exist in Britain anymore. You still let the children go out and play.
We don't do that in Britain anymore. They're locked in. They're on a lead,
it's appalling. But you've still have the fiestas. Any chance, you're
having a fiesta. In England you've to write to the government and ask if you can have
a fiesta. You can't do this, you can't do that. Don't lose it. You've lost a lot
already, don't lose the rest. It's really important how the community
comes together here. It's love
ly to watch children running down not being told,
"Don't do this, don't do that." It's really chronic in Britain
on that level. It's sad. Even I get looked at. If I go to talk to a child the
mother immediately snatches the child away. What? That is crazy. I like coming
here because there's a certain amount of freedom. Whether you like it or not
there's a certain amount of coming together, which is really joyous. So much
of that has gone from Britain. We have time for three more questions. How
do you know? They might be
an hour long! I've been told!... Hi. I wanted to ask, when you do art from
the margins and you try to follow a DIY logic in the process, I think
that sometimes as an artist you can get stifled and feel that the
means the DIY ethics bring are not enough for you creatively. And the option
is to feel a bit unsatisfied or quit eating. And the other [option] is selling out.
I wanted to ask you, how does one navigate this duality
when doing art as a career all life? How d
o you navigate what?...
When you create art from the margins with a DIY logic, I think the resources
that these ethics bring are limited because they are not tied to big
corporations that let you live off art. I think that sometimes you can feel stifled,
you feel you are doing the same, or that you can't do anything else because there
are no means, as in time, money... I wanted to ask you how to navigate
around the selling out... When you don't have all the means
as in commercial art, how do you
navigate those troubles... When you're
doing things DIY you have less means −economic means or material means...
When you're doing art from the margins... There's always materials!
Especially in cities. There's wood lying around everywhere
and the first Wednesday of every month there's tons of shit out there you can
use. It's whether you prepared to experiment. Just grab anything.
There's half pots of paint being put out. There's all sorts of things. Just navigate
by your passion to work. Th
at passion should allow you
to let go of the "I want a paintbrush this wide and some red
paint." Well, it's not there, so change. You'll have to pick up some household white
down the road and an old bit of wood and make some charcoal. There's a way, and I'm not
belittling it, you have to find a way. Look at Picasso's early stuff; all that stuff
on wood that he found on the streets. He had to find a way, he wasn't
rich in the beginning. Other artists have done bits of paper,
bits of cards, bits o
f everything. That's how you navigate. But you have to
have the passion and the drive. The belief in yourself, that's what you're
talking about. If you don't believe in yourself, then you won't do it. That's it.
You'll just get pushed down, tossed down because you think you
haven't got the right things. It's frustrating because you want to use a brush but
you haven't got one, so do something else. That's how you navigate it. But you have to believe
in yourself; that's a difficult one sometimes.
Hi. I was gonna ask you about
how you manage in this society that is always trying to push down
art, especially the art that comes from a dissident way or that questions society
itself. How do you manage to continue? How do you not get demotivated?
And taking what you were saying before, these crises that come with
creating art −emotionally and from the outside world... How do you manage
to navigate through existential crises during the artistic process, plus the outside that is
always trying
to shut down alternative art? It's a big question, because
there's no reason for you not to go back home, get a piece of paper
out and start doing art. Now, if you're going to start doing art and think, "Oh, I'm going
to sell this for a 100 $," then forget it. You won't do it because it's not going
to happen. It's not part of the story. The story is that you want your hand to connect with
here and to go down on there, not on a screen, just a piece of paper. Blank piece of paper.
I can look at
a blank piece of paper all day. I don't have the courage to make the mark. I walk
around and I rearrange my pencils again. I get very nervous and then suddenly I just make a
mark. Once you've made a mark, then you're off. I can do that at home anytime. It's what
you want to put... Again, if you look but don't see, you're looking for a result that you don't
know if is going to happen, because you haven't done the drawing, you haven't done the painting, you¨
haven't done the selling, you haven't
done anything. You need to see. Get in, piece of paper, do it. Then
you've got something and you can maybe see what you've done. You might screw it up and start
again. It doesn't matter, but it's tangible. A lot of artists work with the intangible,
in the sense of where it's going to go into a gallery, into someone's collection...
It's got nothing to do with you. I'm not interested in all that crap.
I never have been. I tried it once when I was very young. I went to a gallery
and they treated yo
u like a piece of shit. I thought, "Never again." I'm not interested
in that. But I'm interested in doing my work, and it accumulated and, obviously,
would I be sitting here if Crass hadn't happened? Who knows, maybe not. Because you're
all familiar with that work and it's been a stepping stone to the other
world that I'm showing in now. I was fortunate enough to decide to live with people,
to share projects, to build up a whole thing. We had another band before Crass, it was equally
on tour and
doing all sorts of things, but for some reason Crass suddenly
took off. We didn't do it for that. It just did, for some reason. It struck
a chord and it got bigger and bigger. But we all decided that 1984 was the cut-off time.
"If we can't say it in the next seven years, we can't say it at all." That was the aim, to say
as much as we could in the best way we could, with the art, with the words, with the graphics,
with the films... And then that's it, call it a day. It worked for us. It left us
, as a band,
as a group of people, reeling... The band is fractured now. Five of the people
are very close, but two of the others are not so close. I wouldn't wish that, but it
just happens. If they were to walk through the door, I'd have a cup of tea. I don't
have any ill feelings, but there's been a split. But there was never a split in the day and
that was important, because we'd agreed on the foundation of what we were trying to say.
And that agreement was true to the very end. Then, when
that all stopped and we had to face
the reality of parents and kids growing up and all the rest of it, suddenly... how tired
you are! I was absolutely wasted. I was not very well because it never
stopped for me once we came off tour. I did all the films and the
lighting on tour and when I get back I start on the next piece of work.
It was, "Continue, continue, continue." I chose to do it, so it's fine for me.
I had no regrets and I would never have continued if I decided
I'm not doing it anym
ore. I wanted to be part of that and it was a
really good project. When we finished Crass we were really upset.
We thought we'd ruined a whole generation. We were really worried that we'd fucked
a generation of young people up. It took a while, two or three years, when
people started to write and say how much they'd got from it that we started to get
confident again. Ok, we didn't, we've given a lot of people a life
and the courage to say "No, I'm going to live my life this way" and
that's been
really rewarding. I think it's a good one to finish... What inspires you today? What are
you doing in your free time? You talked about your garden, making cakes or
listening to music. What warms your heart nowadays and inspires you apart from
making art?... What inspires me? If you want to share something...
I don't know, situations can inspire something, can't they? I'm going through
quite a rough time at the moment with my brother, who's dying. He has not much
time left, so I've been doing
a project with him which has been... We get on very well, we always
go on a holiday together each year and he was diagnosed with asbestos lung
at Christmas. It's very virulent, it's a horrible thing to watch. So,
I started interviewing him with questions that were funny, some heavy, some...
all sorts of things. And we had a laugh. He's a very humorous kind man. I did two sessions of that
and then I did another project with him, which involved a lot of the children that we used
to work with,
who are now adult and who loved my brother. I wrote to them and let them know what
was happening and they've all written back saying what they got from him personally. So last week I
read all the 19 letters from the kids to him. He was, in his very quiet way... He nodded
and understood, he's very [uninteligible] There's nothing wrong there. But I loved it
because it showed him his worth. He's a very modest man and he would never take credit for
anything, so reading all these testimonies from
these children was very moving, very
beautiful. I don't know what I'm going to do with the filming and the questions yet. I don't
know how to use that, it's a bit raw at the moment. But I'll do something. I'll do another
project, just on his deathbed. We laugh at it because we have to. "You're
going today or you're going tomorrow." It's too much otherwise, it's too painful
in the family; the grandchildren and blah blah blah... They've really
appreciated the projects that we've been doing and
there's a lot
of information there that will help after. It's good. Artwork comes from
ridiculous places; I would never have guessed that I would be doing that,
but it was my contribution to his life. Okay, I think we're done here, thank you everyone
for coming. Hope you enjoyed it. And thank you, Gee, for coming.
Thank you all for coming, that was very kind. I've enjoyed it enormously. I wish I could have
heard better, because the chairs first they were put back and the monitors are
facing th
at way, so I can't actually hear these two. I asked the chairs to be
pushed closer to you lot, so they didn't adjust the speakers. It's been a lot of
guesswork that I hope I got right. Thank you. Thank you very much.
[Applause]
Comments
Gee is such an inspiring creative being ❤️