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Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work & A Blunder | Part 2

In this episode of "Mormonism Live," hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel dissect the claims made in the YouTube video titled "Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work | Episode 2" by Scott Christopher and "Book of Mormon Central." The original video purports to uncover Hebrew evidences for the Book of Mormon, presenting them as compelling proof of its divine origin. Chapters: *04:00 Rabbi Joe Charnes’ take on Jacob 5 19:30 Don Perry - Hebraisms 52:30 Olive Horticulture 1:25:00 Moroni’s Promise 1:39:00 Callers ___________________ Welcome to "Mormonism Live," the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. 🤝Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/Donate-To-Mormonism-Live/?default_interval=m 👚👕Take a look at our Merch! 👕👚 https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions 📜Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: https://subscribepage.io/MormonDiscussion Our Platforms: 🌐MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org ✳️Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm 🍎Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: 🗣️Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 🖼️Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ 📱TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion 🎮Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF 🐤https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: 📧 MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://archive.org/details/latewarbetweenun00inhunt/page/n5/mode/2up?q=%22came+to+pass%22 https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=rabbi+joe+charnes&cvid=9f4ad3d573c643cd8f7961019d10d43f&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggBEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg5MgYIARBFGDsyBggCEEUYOzIGCAMQABhAMgYIBBAuGEAyBggFEC4YQDIGCAYQLhhAMgYIBxAAGEAyBggIEEUYPNIBCDM4NDNqMGoxqAIAsAIA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=NMTS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwnz8njEPRw https://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom/zenos.shtml https://exploringmormonism.com/jacob-5-why-vinyards-and-olives/?fbclid=IwAR3yqWBlvn829_9md-Y15gipwZKok7HIHnqDTuCJQNlEBZHWDrdce0ZpkOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yp3HFAlI78&t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go&t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkh_aliF3E&t

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rfm folks are going to love tonight's show I can't believe apologists are this [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] deceptive good evening everyone welcome to tonight's Mormonism live how are you doing Mr real I couldn't be better rfm I am so excited for tonight's program it's gonna be you're deing like a school boy yeah because when you and I first started doing things together we would take these things that general authorities would say and broadcast and we would do you know take a 15minute
talk and we'd do three four hours sometimes and people seemed to really love those and that's really sort of how Mormonism live came to be was because folks enjoyed you and I working together and tonight just as I prepared for this and you shared your thoughts and I added some things in this just I felt like it was going to turn into one of those episodes where you and I had a lot of cool things to say about what will become really clear is apologist overreaching seemingly intentionally and miss
ing the mark when it's all said and done yes well as we both know and I said I think our audience knows scripture Central the apologetic Organization for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been in the process of producing a series of films called a marvelous work in a Wonder hence our title a marvelous work in a blunder as we respond to those they got the first episode out oh was about I don't know a month ago then this we did an episode on it now the second episode of marvelous
work in the Wonder Part Two came out 12 days ago and that's what we're going to be reviewing tonight it's already up over 60,000 views so these are very popular amongst the faithful and we're going to be reviewing it and at the end of it I think all of us are going to be scratching our heads and wondering how is it these are popular among the faithful because if anything these seem to decrease faith in the Book of Mormon as opposed to increasing faith in the Book of Mormon yeah and the only thi
ng I want to add before we start is that for folks who are tuning in as believers and you're you're always looking for things to bolster up your faith and the apologists are very good at presenting things that are high quality good music great script uh but I I'm going to beg you to just sit with us for a couple of hours as we go through this material and I think you will clearly see that the strength of evidence as they insist on it is completely different than reality it's like they live in Bi
zarro world and I know as a Believer you want to find evidences that bolster up your faith but also I'm hoping that at least some of you are willing to see through a glass less Darkly and see things as they really are okay very good well I know that um they've put millions and millions of dollars into this movie and into this series of movies it's obvious there's a lot of money in it they've gone to foreign countries they've taken their camera crew their sound Crew The Whole Nine Yards it's very
very high production quality even higher than Mormonism live dare I say but it's 38 minutes long part two is 38 minutes long they go a full almost five minutes into it before they even present their first evidence and yes I'm putting that in air quotes but there's a full five minutes or at least a full four minutes that goes on in other words a full one tenth of the time four minutes to 40 minutes rounding 38 up to 4 40 they take a tenth of their time and blow it on FL it is obvious to me they
are not excited about getting into the evidence right away knowing they only have 38 minutes to present as much evidence as they can cram into this no it's like they are putting fluff at the beginning lots of fluff at the end that we'll talk about and oh by the way we'll talk about a few evidences here as we go along yeah it's going to be a fun little ride folks so buckle up the first one's not an Evidence they're going to talk with a rabbi right you take us through these slides Bill great let m
e throw the slideshow up on the screen uh here we go this was our thumbnail we created we wanted something with uh Scott on it he is the the gentleman who takes us on this ride but uh I will take us to the next slide here Scott Christopher is our host and the first thing he's gonna do is he's gonna meet with a rabbi named Joe charnes they call him Rabbi Joe as I begin my search for literary evidence in the Book of Mormon I first want to investigate its claim of Rich hebraic symbolism and what be
tter way to do so than to speak with a Jewish rabbi this is this is awesome thank you a very unique experience I'm here with Rabbi Joe Charis um as you know we've been on a journey looking for quote unquote evidence about the Book of Mormon which you hold a copy in your hand right there is that your own personal copy yes sir and where did you who gave you that where did that come from this I got from one of the wards I I regularly attend your ward meetings have you had a chance to read any parts
of the Book of Mormon are you familiar with its content at all yes I've I've looked at certainly the portions you asked me to in in the book of Jacob right okay so for that that one for example seems to be really rich it kind of jumps off the page as feeling very connected to the Bible like it sounds biblical and by that I mean the the Jewish Bible it sounds like the first five books of the Old test the King James Bible oh sorry were you ending this clip there anyway no that's where it ended so
good it even sounds like the King James Bible it's amazing how do you account for that Rabbi Joe so it's it's interesting that when we're starting with evidence I don't usually think of something as looking at an interpretation a spiritual interpretation of a passage or an allegory in this case from Jacob 5 in the Book of Mormon that's where they choose to start because interpretations are inherently subjective and it's great if somebody can get a positive spiritual message out of a book includ
ing the Book of Mormon including Jacob chapter 5 and the rabbis is going to proceed to try and pull something like that out of it but it doesn't really strike me as proving that the Book of Mormon is actually ancient and therefore authentic so I'm not even sure they've really started with their evidences yet even though that's what they claim to have done if the book of if Rabbi Joe Charis thought the Book of Mormon was an ancient textt Rabbi Joe Charis wouldn't be a rabbi he'd be Elder Joe Char
is um the other cool thing I wanted you to chat about it but don't you find it interesting the answer when he asked him if he is read out of the Book of Mormon yes he he answers like an expert witness being direct examined you know so have you read from the book of Mormon well I've read the part you asked me to read for this interview yeah I've read Jacob five because you asked me to it's just like it where's the editor in this I think they should have spent more money on an editor of this becau
se lots of these strange anomalous things keep getting included that I would have expected to have hit the Cutting Room floor on the first edit so but we do get the experience it appears of the question being asked for the first time which it shouldn't be any more than if I've got a witness that's my witness that's on the stand that I'm asking them for the first time these questions in front of a jury and I don't know what they're going to say bad idea but it seems like that's what we get and so
have you read this before well I've read the part you asked me to read oh okay great let's go on and we'll see more and more of that as we go on throughout this show is this this is a spiritual part the olive here and there's a grafting on from The Wild Olive branches to the tame Olive branches some times we die out and we need that grafting on and if you read I mean it's so beautiful there's a verse in in in verse 22 the Lord of The Vineyard says unto his servant he says counsel me not for I k
new that it was poor it was a poor spot of ground wherefore I said unto thee I have nourished it this long time and thou behold that it hath brought forth much fruit it's that same idea I am impoverished I am broken I am lost beaten down yeah but it can still produce fruit I am beaten crushed for light I can still have that light that hope that presence that beauty I love that yeah yes my head is bloody but unbowed it's that kind of stuff which is all great if you can get a positive message out
of the Book of Mormon God bless you Rabbi Joe Charis but please notice one thing here first off it's not evidence of anything second off notice the exact part of this allegory they're going to focus on this allegory I'd say for the most part of this show where they're doing anything that really has to do with evidence it's going to be mostly the allegory and they're starting with this but it is the part of the allegory where he says the Wild Olive branches are being grafted into the tame Olive T
ree okay they are spiritualizing that part of the allegory and there's a reason that they're doing that which will come to later and I might as well go ahead and let the cat out of the bag now it's because that doesn't happen in horiculture you cannot take a wild Olive Tree grafted to a tame Olive excuse me branches from a wild Olive Tree into a tame olive tree and have those branches then become tame or cultivated doesn't happen in horiculture that's why they have to spiritualize it I thought i
t was interesting that when Rabbi Joe chares starts to read the verse Scott comes in and sort of goes yeah for I knew like he's he's but remember he's the one who gave Joe which verses to read it sort of comes off like oh yeah I know the Book of Mormon well too I know what verse you're reading well sure as hell you do you're the one who planted the evidence essentially counsel me not yeah so I thought that was strange good point all right here's the next one so in the allegory uh in in Jacob 5 t
here's a lot of talk about the master of the vineyard grafting in tame tame Olive branches onto a wild tree and Wild Olive branches onto a tame tree yeah is there any anything symbolically in there that jumps out to you as a rabbi as a member of the Jewish faith is there anything even just personally from the grafting discussion that the grafting we know is is Central to this section of Jacob grafting for me is something I always hope and seek to do because it allows me to help Sprout new branch
es strengthen my roots and grow as a person of Soul it can compromise us if you gr draft onto something that isn't healthy or healing right it will compromise your root right but it also in the end can heal and allow you yeah to rebuild if you prune and if you dig and if you nourish so Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil is asking how is this proving the hysteric I think that's a good question I'm not sure I know the answer to it it seems like as you pointed out in the first comment as we got into Joe c
hares Joe is a rabbi who's going like okay I can find some spiritual meaning here there's there are application to real life but nothing about what Joe is giving us indicates that this is an ancient text that Joe believes is an ancient text I think they're trying to make the Book of Mormon sound spiritually profound and that's kind of why they started off with this talk about uh don kot the book 1615 in Spain and they're trying to raise the Book of Mormon in a literary category up to the level o
f Don kot I think that's going to be a hard sell amongst all but the most faithful members of the LDS church Maven thanks um yeah I just wanted to pop in and say something that I found interesting is that I where Rabbi Joe is coming from and I mean there's a lot of different Jewish sects so of course there's nothing that really applies to but but overwhelmingly I feel like Jewish Scholars their treatment of scripture is very different from us and they they don't treat it literally um they they l
ook at what can be learned from it rather than looking at it as like hardcore um you know historical documents or hardcore you doctrinal statements that's uh that's how a lot of a lot of them approach this at all and I just thought it was really kind of ironic that I mean first of all that is what Rabbi Joe is doing and to me if you watch the whole thing in the original video uh I I actually found his lessons to be quite beautiful and uh better than lessons that I usually had around this allegor
y around this chapter because they they focused on the grafting and stuff so much um anyway I I really liked what he was doing but the irony here is that uh Scott is there trying to use Rabbi Joe plus the other places they go in this video to try to prove the historicity and literality of the Book of Mormon um so it's just it's just completely opposite it goals and I I just I just found that really interesting I guess and and ironic that I think what the what Scott's trying to do is so much less
valuable than what Rabbi Joe was trying to do and and I think removes a lot of meaning that can be found if we if we didn't if members of the church didn't try so hard to make this real so that's my thoughts on that and I I wonder if the reason they put this spiritualizing aspect of the grafting and the Olive Tree allegory into this part is because later on when they go back to Spain which I doubt they actually went back to Spain they're supposed to be in Spain now talking to the the rabbi if y
ou watch the whole movie then they go they talk to uh a professor and Provo we'll get to that then they go back to Spain they actually talk with a guy who's a real Olive horticulturalist in Spain in the shadow of the oldest Olive Tree in the world that people know of and it's beautiful except for the fact that that interview explodes so dramatically on the apologist where poor uise who's the name of the guy who's the horticulturalist who knows what he's talking about he gives the answers to the
questions but they are the wrong answers they contradict what the Book of Mormons says happened in the allegory on two occasions and I think that it may be because those exploded so dramatically first off I can't believe they left him in the movie but they did thank you that they maybe they thought they needed to shore it up a little bit with some spiritualizing yeah and wasn't it you Maven you mentioned maybe it was another podcast that did it but that Jacob chapter 5 at least in part is talkin
g about the falling away of the Jews hence you need to create live branches from a dead tree and he goes to a Jewish rabbi and presents to him a scripture that is essentially assailing the Jewish people and then ask the rabbi yeah that was something I thought but mormones also covered it as well so yeah it just I think it's another way that shows really how insensitive Mormons can be and considering that I think Rabbi Joe handled that very well and and it seems to be kind of his thing to really
uh be a a bridge builder and uh and not um maybe take offense or um react differently he could have chosen a different path you an educational one maybe but he he stayed kind that's the decision that he made he seems very ecumenical and and by the way let's get to his ecumen ability which is that Joe Charis isn't just a random Rabbi they didn't just pick out the Yellow Pages and say hey we need to sit with a rabbi and see what the Book of Mormon right this this is right he's not first off he's n
ot in Spain so let me just show you um Rabbi Joe Charis has been interacting with the LDS faith for years he is and again I don't mean this in any rude way he sounds like a great guy he is the token Rabbi that the church puts out in front of the camera anytime they want to talk about them having Interfaith work with the Jewish faith and so Rabbi Joe Charis here on BYU Radio is in a podcast uh in the in good faith podcast Rabbi Joe Charis episode 181 so there's one uh Church news episode 157 Rabb
i Joe Charis on the power of General Conference a member of a different Faith by the way this is what he specializes in what you and Maven just said he specializes in Interfaith work he goes around to a handful of churches and works on building a relationship with them of course he's only going to say nice things yeah he's a nice guy yeah so Church news uh General Conference here's why one Rabbi loves General Conference and his approach to finding deep wisdom in the talks again he will take some
thing like the Book of Mormon which he doesn't believed to be historical and he finds wisdom where maybe few others would you mean like in general conference exactly yeah uh here is Carrie mol's podcast which I didn't even know Carrie had one I gotta imagine those 13 listeners are having the ride of their life the scriptures are real Carrie Molin season 2 episode 79 Rabbi Joe Charis on General Conference and peace and Grace uh in Colossians so there's that um and I just wanted to note several pi
ctures my favorite one by the way is the upper right hand corner where Joe Charis is hanging out with the Bonnie Cordon family so there's that but Rabbi he is prevalent in interactions with the LDS faith if you're going to go create an Evidence video about the church and you need a rabbi and you're Mormon this is the guy you call and again he doesn't believe in Mormonism he doesn't think the Book of Mormons an ancient text but he is the guy you can count on to say nice things in section two now
now they come back from Spain and they go to Provo specifically to Brigham Young Young University to to talk with Professor Donald W Perry and his new book preserved in Translation which I think must be a play on the uh the title Lost in Translation he's going to say preserved in Translation Hebrew and other ancient literary forms in the Book of Mormon we'll see how this goes I am here with uh don Perry author of preserved in Translation and a lot of other books this is I can probably attest tha
t this is the narrowest book that you've possibly ever written probably so what they're laughing but why are we laughing well because it's evidence for the Book of Mormon Hebrew uh hebrewism Hebrew style things in the uh the text of the Book of Mormon that he has assimilated and it's the narrowest book that Scott Christopher has ever seen why why would that be funny I don't know right it's like it's like the old book that you find in the gift store you know and he says everything I know about wo
men and you open up and there's nothing on the pages so the evidence evidence Hebrew evidence of the Book of Mormon is in what they say is the narrowest book that they have ever seen and when we get done with this section you're going to learn that this book should have actually been a whole hell of a lot thinner yes it could have hey Bill by the way are you able to click the slide a little bit to move it down in the frame it was up a little bit high and their heads were cut off yeah it it shows
up full here so I can't do anything about it I'm really sorry no that's okay okay let me uh let me go to the next one here let's see how that goes yeah so let's see your view slideshow so section two this is uh we did that already that's not the right one add to the stage section two part A switching the order of a sentence so here's an Evidence I think this might be our first one the Hebrew Bible it's what I do it's my job what are hebraisms and why would it matter to us on our quest to find e
vidence for the Book of Mormon we're talking about hebraisms in The Book of Mormon and hebraisms are Hebrew like structures uh poetic parallelisms they are figures of speech or literary techniques that survive the translation and that are in the Book of Mormon what are some of your favorite hebraisms from The Book of Mormon one was not even known until the 1950s when a Jewish scholar whose name is Moses cidal he demonstrated that one way that ancient prophets would cite or quote another prophet
is to switch a key phrase with another key phrase and he gave some examples from the Old Testament there are maybe eight or ten examples of this same thing going on in the Book of Mormon and I'll give you one example Isaiah the prophet wrote precept upon precept line upon line notice the order of that Nephi cited Isaiah and switched those key terms and he said line upon line precept upon precept that's found in second Nephi 28 verse3 and in that verse he's not saying Isaiah said right this is th
eir way of of quoting someone yes yes and you were supposed to know the scriptures well enough to know I citing Isaiah right now what's that rfm free that right there yeah okay uh Scott Christopher was asking him saying so he's not saying this is what uh was said well actually he is second Nei 28:30 for behold thus saith the Lord God begin quotation marks I will give un the children of men line upon line precept upon precept so he actually is denoting by a more standard method that he is quoting
something from the Lord God yeah um we can finish this before I share my two sons but yeah I'm underwhelmed so far with this one yeah and when we quote someone we we will say and president so and so or or Professor so and so said this and we'll use quote marks and then we'll have have a bib bibliographic footnote um so switching words or phrases is evidence of ancient Jewish or Hebrew origin is that what he said uh yes it's an evidence that they are quoting something from the scriptures and the
y're marking the fact they're be he didn't even say beginning a quote but I that's what I thought he meant by changing two key phrases in it you mean like deniable plausibility my point is that the human brain especially if you have a translator who's really not translating he's just dictating uh a madeup text you sort of would want to make allowances that he might accidentally or intentionally reverse uh wording or phrases and such would have no meaning on whether the uh doing so actually is an
indicator of something being an ancient text for instance I often have said deniable plausibility when the correct phrase is plausible deniability and it wasn't until I was corrected several times and Maven had a little gift made for me where see if I cover up my eyes if it'll maybe focus in on that wh I don't think it's going to but anyway it's a little piece of wood that's got uh carved in into it plausible deniability because that's the correct way to say it and I don't have anything here go
ing with ancient uh Jewish uh or Hebrew uh origin no that's where you're mistaken yeah that M shows that you are an ancient Hebrew Prophet Mr real and the other funny thing was that we were just talking about this three of us earlier this afternoon before the show and there was one part of the show that they put up the uh marvelous work in a wonder where they spend like last quarter or last third just having a fast and testimony meeting with one Spanish lady in a park in Spain that's all it is a
nd Maven had thought that that had occurred at the first part of the show and we were talking about the fact that she was confused on that and I said well you know what this means don't you Maven this means that you are ancient Hebrew yeah doesn't any time you you you mix something up all of a sudden now you're a Hebrew I don't understand that yeah and I don't know if you wanted to point it out but it's not that they really quoted the verses correct from Isaiah in the first place right and this
is right next to a place where they're quoting Isaiah 29 in in chapter 27 of second Nephi but the other thing that's interesting about it and we're not going to go off in the Weeds on that if you can go back to it where it has both of them together and freeze on that uh I can try while you're doing I'll go ahead and say that when Isaiah is using this he says uh precept upon precept precept upon precept line upon line line upon line and then when Nephi paraphrases it he says line upon line precep
t on precept and I can remember that one because of my turn on earth right and we all know the song but that's the opposite of the way that uh Isaiah said it the thing is that when Isaiah says it it's a negative thing this is how the wicked stumble and are taken in a snare and that's right there in that verse and when it's changed to uh Nephi saying it now it's a positive thing and this is how God teaches his children his truth so I see that you're working on that is it really close it is right
here you are the man so just really quick you'll say you'll see in Isaiah on the right line upon line here a little and there a little that they may go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken not a good thing this is not a positive way to teach and the other one for second Nephi 28 when it gets flipped it says and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts and lend an ear un my counsel so it is the opposite interpretation that's being placed upon this passage from Isaiah which m
akes one Wonder because Nephi made such a big deal out of the fact that he quotes all this Isaiah because it's so great and he understands Isaiah because he lived among the Jews in Jerusalem and nobody can understand Isaiah like the Jews who lived in Jerusalem and here's Nephi showing how much understands it as a Jew who came from Jerusalem which is exactly the opposite of what it actually means yeah and as you see Dan Vogal there the same thing is used in Doctrine Covenant section 98 and that i
s a contemporary work that we would all even as Believers in the church admit is not an ancient uh Jewish origin it's God talking to Joseph Smith in the here and now and hence if it is evidence of of an ancient origin then the doctrine of covenants would be an ancient text and that's not the case this is this is just a faulty way of thinking uh to make this be evidence for for the Book of Mormon being ancient yeah and that's about all I have to say about this I really you know I used to be into
this so much back in the 1980s and the hebrewisms and the kmus and the parallelism and the reverse parallelism all that stuff right and now I look at it and I'm just left I mean how is this impressive at all yeah totally all right and then our next section here is section two part B Hebrew names such as Elma can you hang on just a second yeah because I got to tell you the story on Elma I won't tell you the whole story we'll get to the whole story on Elma love it but honestly when this came out 1
2 days ago I saw that it had dropped and I sent it to you I sent it to Maven I sent it to I think Rebecca to let you know that it had dropped because obviously we're going to want to talk about it at some point and I had not had a chance to start watching it I was doing something else and you're watching it and I'm hearing seeing your text come back and you saying Alma exclamation point I'm you got to be kidding me they're not not talking about Elma again are they as a name as proof and as evide
nce of the Book of Mormon I thought we had driven a stake in Alma's heart cut his head off his body buried them in separate locations five years ago and now here he comes back from the grave to ha us again yeah um we are going to take that dead horse and we're going to beat the the living hell out of it once again because this is such a horrible apologetic approach uh so with that here is I believe the first video as soon as it shows up uh have you brought any other uh examples our names uh ther
e are some Hebrew names in The Book of Mormon that were unknown to the world when when Joseph Smith translated The Book of Mormon I'll give you one example that I really really like and it's the name Elma now when Joseph Smith translated The Book of Mormon as you know the name Elma appears many many times there and some of the people who didn't understand the Book of Mormon thought maybe Joseph had borrowed the word Elma from the Latin or the Spanish is it also the span Elma means soul soul yes
spirit and they thought okay he he must have borrowed it from the Latin but the name Elma was discovered in a a legal deed in a cave south of of the Dead Sea Scrolls caves and it was discovered and it has the name Elma the son of Judah written in Hebrew it's a Hebrew word now this this letter or or deed um is dated to around 132 ad so it's centuries before Joseph Smith brought forth The Book of Mormon okay Bill you want to talk about this shalai going back you know 5 years I want you to can you
tell the story you let me know if you want me to because there's there we are this is an early episode what episode this is number four it says Mormonism live number four the rise and fall of Alma as apologetic this is from what what is it from is it 2019 no it's 2020 because it's this show but we're talking about what happened in 2019 right right and how we had finally brought Daniel C Peterson The Godfather of Mormon apologetics also known as The Artful Dodger of Mormon apologetics to his knee
s making him bend the knee kiss the ring and admit that Elma is not a great evidence for the Book of Mormon because you could not swing a dead cat in Joseph Smith's neighborhood without hitting a guy named Elma yeah and uh in that blog post so the original blog post by Dan Peterson Elma deception and I uh he talks about how uh he's you know used the name in the past as an Evidence in the comments if you go to the comments of that uh blog post you get a Dr Detroit I don't know if you know who tha
t is because you participate in those blogs will you hang on just a second because you're being too humble right now you brought Daniel Peterson to the point of writing that blog which he did not do of his own free will and valtion back on July 31st 2019 which I believe was the date of it because you were up in his grill all over the internet about his using Alma as an evidence for the Book of Mormon when actually Joseph Smith knew tons of guys had to have known tons of guys with the name Alma i
t was extremely prevalent in his day and so um he writes this article on his blog at sck at non and in the comment section some individual named Dr Detroit starts throwing in his face all of this research EAS obtainable about all the guys named Alma in Joseph Smith day yeah but it it gets way worse than this so as you point out Dr Detroit lists I don't know 50 elmas or so and Daniel then comments next and say you know none of these are in Palmyra New York uh so then so then Dr Detroit comes back
and says well actually there's several male elmas in Palmyra New York and so I uh just preparing for this conversation went and looked up some of them and what I ended up doing let me uh put it up on the screen here so what I ended up doing was going to family search there's no better place to get our point of view is evidence then to go right to the to the horse's uh you know to the horse's mouth and get uh off of family search look for people whose name you'll see on the right hand side my fi
lter first names Elma males uh I put Wayne County New York because I wanted it to start with getting the closest ones to there born between 7 1950 and 1830 what came up were 223,000 uh search results and you say well maybe these aren't males let's click some of them so first off the red ones are ones that I've already clicked and those are men but just to play the game let's pick some that I haven't clicked and see so we have Elma W Waters let's see what gender he is oh Elma Waters is a male now
if I go back here Elma Waters was born 1858 in New York okay well how about Elma Brooks born 1819 in New York well Elma Brooks is a male so there's another Elma and you can scroll this forever and let's do Elma messenger maybe this one's a female let's see oh no that's another male named Elma and I'm just telling you you can click any one of these and these are all men so these are all elmas who are males who are born in the United States mostly New York uh who were born between the years of 17
50 and 1830 and the list goes forever now when you look at things as evidence is it Greater to find the Contemporary thing where they are almost innumerable or is it more reasonable and rational to go find the one male that is in ancient uh Jewish documents and point to that and go oh that proves The Book of Mormon uh an ancient document it seems to me it makes way more sense to go there are elmas in every neighborhood in New York who are boys who are male it it it becomes unnecessary to go find
an Elma in ancient uh Jewish documents because this is sufficient to show that Joseph Smith uh could have easily thought of Elma as a male name yeah and in that episode where we talk about it and I invite you all to go back and watch it we talk about all of this we lay out all the evidence we play the clips from Daniel C Peterson where he's been announcing how great an Evidence it is for the Book of Mormon and we simply want to hold him accountable to the facts because what he's doing is he's p
laying a three card Monty he's telling you about Alma in the Book of Mormon he's telling you about uh the fact that there's really no men around today named Elma if you know an elma's probably a girl and then he drops the deed from the bar coka documents and says well here's Alma bin Yuda what he doesn't tell you is that there were all sorts of almma men named Elma in Joseph Smith day that's the part he leaves out of the equation and that's the part that he knows he knows it just as well as Don
Perry knows it and you know how I know that Don Perry knows it one because he's not an idiot and he wasn't born yesterday and also he avoids saying anything that would be a direct lie did you notice that he dances all around it to give the impression without actually lying about it which indicates to me he's perfectly aware of this fact yeah if there are only five male elmas within 200 miles of Joseph Smith's home that makes that explanation exponentially more likely than one male Elma in ancien
t Israel the other thing is that some names go into Vogue and out of Vogue Alma is Apparently one of those for men because I was surprised to find that 200 years ago Elma was a very popular men's name in the United States in Joseph Smith's area I would never have thought that and that plays into the apologist hands if you remain ignorant of that fact but here we are 200 years later does anybody name their boy Z anymore I don't know any I've never met any I've never read about any but uh but that
's 200 years notice barcoa documents 132 CE that's after Christ right that is 700 years after Lehi leaves Jerusalem according to the Book of Mormon there's 600 years then plus the extra Century after Christ right that's more than 700 years later imagine what can happen with a name going in and out of Vogue between those time periods so all I'm saying is that they go in and out of Vogue the main point here is once again once again in spite of the fact that at the end of that show we say actually
I think you say well I guess we won't be hearing this used as an apologetic again and I I may have laughed and said well time will tell because sometimes these are so attractive to the apologist they can't seem to let them go even though they know that they don't stand for what it is they're claiming it stands for anymore yeah and I only want to ask the viewer how many times are these evidences discredited before you start to sense that the apologist is being intentionally deceptive again we hav
e one argument that the apologists often use is that I don't know why we're still dealing with these these issues have been raised by critics over and over and over again well here's the problem the evidences and the things that the church says and its apologists say about the problems or the the historical data points they're flawed they've got holes in them and we've refuted them we've shown that Elm is a common name there's zero reason for fair Mormon Book of Mormon Central and Professor Perr
y from ever using it again and as you point out rfm I would like to think like oh like these guys are at least honest enough that at this point they would be ridiculous to keep doing so and you're like just watch it'll happen and here we are again addressing Elma where is the content supervisor in this show I mean there there's got to be tens if not hundreds of people who have their hands into this this show is there no one is there no one who said maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to use this as
an evidence for the Book of Mormon because it's not an evidence for the Book of Mormon because there were guys named Alma and Joseph Smith day and if we don't say it and Mormonism live finds out about it they're going to be shouting it from the rooftops and how is that going to make you look then Scott Christopher and they've got folks like Neil rapley right wasn't Steven Smoot maybe in one of them I think in part one um but I know that there was a couple of other apologist uh certainly there's
enough folks who know the banter back and forth that goes between the critics and the apologist the record has been corrected and yet you still keep seeing these misnomers making their way into Mormon apologetics and even though it' be the right honorable ethical and decent thing to do in part three or four to issue a retraction or correction I will bet you dollars to Donuts there's no way that's ever going to happen anybody want to take a bet that they'll put out a video that takes all the thi
ngs that we've said that showed that their evidences aren't nearly as strong and maybe even counter evidence to what they're claiming and that they'll issue a corrected video I'll put money on that yeah or even just this one because this isn't even a matter of opinion this is facts that they're omitting to make their evidence look stronger than it is yep okay you ready for the next part yes sir all right so now we've got part two section c cognate verbs this should be interesting so one of the o
nes that I really liked and there's so many that are so cool in here that I had never heard of and I can't find right now but I remember it had to do with cognates or cognate ver there it is cognate verbs and objects explain to me what that is or explain to us uh that's that's a grammatical form where the noun and the verb are the same root for example to build buildings to dream a dream to sing a song to curse with a curse let me remind you of some you've got in here um you know uh tax with a t
ax yes uh fear exceedingly with fear yes shielded by Shields now those are the ones that you found in the book of yes this is very very Hebrew and here they are in the Book of Mormon and they surviv the translation into English yeah showing Joseph Smith was an amazing translator he translated by the power of God thank you I mean there's 15 or 20 right there and I read those every day in the book of Mor and I now I know yeah that's how they did in Hebrew have you ever heard build a building in mo
dern day from people around you talking about construction yeah yeah is does that imply that it's ancient how about sing a song you know what everybody I'm gonna do a karaoke I'm gonna stand up and sing a song well it's kind of like the Carpenters sing sing a song Come On must be ancient I'm surprised we haven't found kmus in there yeah dream a dream honestly when when I got the soundtrack to lady Miz back in the early '90s and they had the one great song in it which is I dreamed a dream in days
gone by I hated that song I mean I loved it but I hated it because I knew that they were using that cognate accusative I knew that they were using an evidence that the Book of Mormon is ancient and I didn't like it because lay Miz is not an ancient Hebrew musical yeah I I find it so odd that in the middle of trying to present COG at uh verbs as evidence of an ancient text he uses as examples modern cognate verbs that all of us have heard that seems so strange right and taxing attacks shielding
a shield I don't know but um I will say that when you get to these other more abstruse forms that typically in English society what we do is we try and differ the verb from the noun right we don't want to say uh build a building I think is pretty much common I mean what else are you going to say erect a building that can lead to its own problems yeah so we just say build a building or build an erection right no we just stick with build a building in polite society and dream a dream and sing a so
ng yeah we got that but when you get beyond that it is typically looked at as a mark of um lower education in our society if you can't structure a sentence in such a way that you're not repeating yourself within the same sentence or even in nearby sentences so we try and avoid that if we can and when we hear someone doing that we're more likely to think that they are not very educated as opposed to thinking this must be an ancient Hebrew I'm speaking to yeah and while we can talk about Joseph Sm
ith being educated at home we can talk about him being an intelligent person uh I'm more than happy to give him tons of credit there uh but at the same time there's also certain lacks of Education going on with him as well and that's a very good explanation for why this shows up and as we've shown with modern examples this certainly is not an Evidence of of an ancient Hebrew origin read the first original edition of The Book of Mormon I have I've got it in replica I don't have the actual origina
l but I have read through it I've read all of it not just the part that Scott Christopher gave me to read for the show yeah it's very Frontier picturesque kind of grammar little folksy yeah all right you ready for the next one this it gets better by the way folks the you know we started with Joe chares and we're working our way into some of the serious stuff uh wait till we get back to Spain oh yeah so here is section two part D and it came to pass you're not going to believe it but the hundreds
and hundreds of references of and it came to pass in the Book of Mormon is an Evidence of ancient origin me it's true here it is let me tell you one more okay um and it came to pass that seemed so innocent and it came to pass and yet it is a hebrewism but I mean what what makes it so Hebrew and not because it's it's worked its way into the English lexicon at least from a a Biblical or religious standpoint so how would I know that that really is oh it it's found in historical narratives not so m
uch poetry so it's found in Joshua Judges Ruth Chronicles Chronicles and those books not as often in Isaiah or Psalms or Proverbs the poetry and it has to do with narrative this happened and it came to pass this happened and it came to pass this happened very Hebrew yeah not exactly 19th century No North American English aesome unless they're reading the King James version that Joseph Smith had in his possession right to yet another oh I'm sorry are we still going no no no it was a long clip but
I think it ended there so sorry go ahead well if it didn't it should have it should have yes because I mean they're giving us the answer in their presentation if you okay there's there's one thing about hiding evidence and I criticize them for that with the name Alma I shouldn't criticize him here for giving the other side of the story but when you give the other side of the story then you have to ask the question why are you raising it in the first place and he says yeah you find it came to pa
ss all over the Bible in the in the narrative parts of course it's in the narrative Parts it's not in the Poetry Parts because it's saying and it came to pass right and it came to pass and then it came to pass that's a narrative thing and you find it in judges and Ruth and kings and Chronicles and all throughout the historical parts of the Old Testament so what what that tells me is that would be the obvious place that Joseph Smith got it in creating the Book of Mormon in order for it to make it
look more like ancient Hebrew scripture yeah so up on the screen King James Bible uh at the very top left of the image you'll see search inside I typed in quote came to pass unquote there are 409 results by the way Book of Mormon has and it came to pass 890 times or or a variation of it it is twice as true as the Bible the Book of Mormon is yeah instead of saying and it came to pass it might have said now it came to pass uh there were some other variations but most of them are and it came to pa
ss 890 times the Bible has 409 times now if you remember at the end of that video excuse me sorry about that at the end of that clip Scott Christopher says yeah that's definitely not a 19th century way of talking well uh it actually is the late War which is a book that's often referenced as being similar to The Book of Mormon has 81 references of it and it came to pass or came to pass or now it came to pass um and they're quite you know 81s is significantly less than 800 for sure but on page nin
e page 15 page 19 page 22 page 24 page 26 page 30 page 33 it was this is half of them on the screen right now again this is absolutely a 19th century way of writing down language or or speaking um in a way that was intentionally done to mimic the scriptural language in the King James version of the Bible correct yeah first book of Napoleon has only 14 times but it does do it page 13 19 41 49 50 51 57 61 62 64 77 91 111 and 113 interesting note by the way Solomon Spalding's manuscript story and E
than Smith's view of the Hebrews have zero came to passes which I thought was interesting doesn't mean anything to me but note that there are multiple Works written in the 19th century that have zero problem putting came to pass and it came to pass now it came to pass soon it you know whatever just over and over and over again this is not evidence of anything I would just say that in view of the Hebrews it doesn't surprise me that there would be it came to pass is because there's no narrative in
the book it's simply A Treatise on assimilating evidences that Ethan Smith beli showed that the modern day as of his Day Native Americans were descended from the Jews right okay section three Olive horiculture okay now we're going to get back to Jacob chapter 5 we had a break from Rabbi Joe chares and then we talked to Don Perry but we're coming back to Jacob 5 and the Olive cult horiculture because if anything proves The Book of Mormon is true it is how accurate it is in describing ancient Oli
ve horiculture among the Jews no sarcasm there within the Book of Mormon we learn that Lehi and his seed were LED away from Jerusalem because of the wickedness of its people the Lord of The Vineyard planted the Nephites and the lamanites in a good spot of ground yet in the end wickedness prevailed and the nephite civilization was completely destroyed the allegory says that the wild fruit of the last had over of the tree which can you go back there so we can see the battle scene I'm noticing that
everybody seems to have the same color skin now also notice there's still metal swords it appears yeah it does look like metal it's either that or you know a cardboard with aluminum foil wrapped around it if you can see my cursor it does look like there's those edges of the kinds of Swords they talk about yes but notice it's done in such a way as to be sort of you can see it if you're looking for it but generally they look like they're metal swords I just want everyone to understand that the cu
rse of the black skin has been done away with by modern animation yeah isn't that weird The Book of Mormon is no longer a racist text okay civilization was completely destroyed the allegory says that the wild fruit of the last had overcome that part of the tree which brought forth good fruit even that the branch had withered away and died this branch that had good and bad fruit the Nephites and lamanites eventually was fully corrupted The Vineyard Master is saddened to lose his Vineyard and so p
lans for a final pruning and grafting of the scattered Olive branches back into the main tree so there is in animated form and in much synopsized form the allegory of the Olive Tree in Jacob chapter 5 which is the longest chapter in The Book of Mormon and perhaps the longest allegory in the history of mankind yeah I was just going to try to pull up here the next thing but um you found uh these I don't know if this is the right moment for it or not yeah it's always the right moment for this I'm I
'm just going to click ahead a little bit okay yeah so there is a book published by the church um The Book of Mormon Jacob through words of Mormon to learn which way it came out in 1990 it's a collection of essays by different professors at BYU on different parts of the Book of Mormon Wilford M Hess contributed his article on the this allegory it's called Botanical comparisons in the allegory of the Olive Tree and it appears in this book and you can reach it online too which is where I found it
you'll notice that Wilfred mes actually knows what the heck he's talking about because Wilfred mes was I assume he's deceased was a professor of botney and range science at Brigham Young University so he's somebody who actually knows a thing or two about botany and about olive trees as it turns out and what he tells us although he tries to put a very faithful spin on it he is a faithful member of the church or was and a professor at BYU he notes two huge glaring errors in the allegory of the Oli
ve Tree in Jacob five things that do not happen in Olive horiculture and we're going to talk about the first one there's one up here at the top then there's one here at the bottom but the first one is that wild branches can yield tame fruit now understand that's what the book of morm says happens it's actually the fundamental turning point in the book of Mormon's allegory here it's critical to the allegory that wild branches can yield tame fruit after they've been grafted into a tame tree this i
s an example of interpretations that seem to violate Botanical rules they don't just seem to they violate it okay that if a wild Olive Branch is grafted onto a tame olive tree that branch branch and all of its growth will retain the same genetics it doesn't become tame just because it's been grafted onto a tame or cultivated Olive Tree it will remain wild and will produce only wild or small seated bitter fruit I.E fruit of low quality although the size may increase due to better nutrition that B
ranch will never have the genetic potential of the branches from domesticated trees period end of quote from this article by the BYU professor of of botney so that's the first thing we'll get to the other thing here in a bit but the reason I wanted to talk about it now is because uh our hero Scott Christopher is going to fly to Spain he's going to talk to yis who is the guy with the olive trees and he knows stuff he's going to ask him two questions we have numerous Clips but there's two question
s that are the focus of this part based upon this idea in the Book of Mormon he's going to ask him aboutwell what happens if you were to take these branches from a wild Olive Tree and put him into this tree blah blah blah and uise bless his heart doesn't give the right answers he gives the correct answers but he doesn't give the answers that J with the Book of Mormon and the thing that's amazing is not only did they leave us in but Scott Christopher appears to interpret what he's saying as if he
's actually answering his questions in a way that support the Book of Mormon when manifestly he is not yeah and I just want to note before we go to the clips Jacob chapter 5 is touted out by the apologist every chance they can get and the argument that they make is that Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have a clue how Olive Tree horiculture works so if we find contradictions where Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon imposes that Olive Tree horiculture Works a certain way and in fact it doesn't then
that is in and of itself the counterargument and there's plenty more around this issue and I think this is to me the funnest issue of the night um it is counter it's counter uh it's a counter example if you're going to argue that the Jacob chapter 5 is an example that Joseph Smith hit the bullseye when in reality there are so problems with Jacob chapter 5 maybe the least of which is that he gets allive horiculture absolutely incorrect right and I'm sure he knew about some kind of some kinds of
horiculture that were native to his neighborhood he's a farm boy from a farm family but olives were not among them yeah so here's the first clip as he meets uh uise it's a double L he pronounces it Louise which is what I would have thought he gets corrected this is actually is like their very first meeting hello l yis y okay very good uh Scott here we're of course at uh this amazing uh Olive Orchard called Lon and Lis is the uh is the owner and and whatnot uh this tree I see behind us here is ro
ped off and uh it's it looks fairly significant what is the signific of this tree how old is it it is the oldest olive tree that we know about that is dated by scientific methods to be honest is not a tree that is very strong so could you in theory since it's not producing as much as you would like it to after 1700 years listen theoretically graft younger newer stronger branches into it and then see it produce more fruit um it could be done but only from shoots from the lowest part of the tree r
ecovering the upper part of the tree is very difficult if we want the tree to recover and regain its Vigor and its strength it is better to create a tree starting from a new branch in the end the trunk is a sponge that absorbs the majority of the nutrients and the strength that the two trees have it's amazingly similar to Jacob five what he's saying except for the fact it's the opposite of what Jacob five is saying yeah what he said is the only way you can make this work is if you take the littl
e branches that are coming out out of the ground by the tree that are essentially sort of splitting off to become a tree of Their Own right yeah and plant it separately and then it becomes its own tree and then you can get good fruit this is absolutely not what is represented in Jacob chapter 5 or anywhere else in the Book of Mormon to my knowledge you can say a little BS use a highquality camera crew play a little soft music in the background and everybody feels elevation emotion I just can't b
elieve they left this in the show but you know they got 38 they only have 38 minutes it's running time is very short I mean they've got to have something in their show I suppose so this is what they have they left it in and I think I think that maybe what happened was that this interview with yise went so badly and this is one of the places where it explodes in their face that that's when they got the idea let's get Rabbi Joe chares on here and let's spiritualize this thing because we got to mak
e something out of this because making it literal Olive horiculture is not doing it yeah so here you've got uh Jacob chapter 5 live up on the screen right this is of course a representative uh example where it's talking about that and it came to pass that the servant said unto his master how comest thou hither to plant this tree or this branch of the tree for behold it was the poorest spot in all the land of thy Vineyard okay this is for the next question because he's gonna ask about the poor gr
ound right um and that's the second thing I think I have that slide duplicated here in a moment too and the Lord of The Vineyard said unto him counsel me not I knew knew that it was a poor spot of ground wherefore I said unto thee I have nourished it this long time and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit so a tree in the allegory gets planted in poor spot of ground produces a whole lot of fruit lot of good fruit right so let me see here if I can um where actually here's here's t
he other one oh can you read that for me Bill yep so just to note maybe we can just reiterate the other one before we go to that sound clip but Jacob 5: 18 and he said unto the servant behold the branches of the wild tree have taken hold of the moisture of the root thereof now remember he said that it's the trunk and stuff of the old tree that soaks up all the moisture uh that's how olive trees work that's why you really can't graph them in you have to do it at these little Sprouts coming out at
the bottom because otherwise the main trunk of the tree soaks it up and the root thereof hath brought forth much strength and because of the much strength of the root thereof of the branches sorry the root thereof the wild branches have brought forth tame fruit again it works the opposite way now if we had not grafted in these branches the tree thereof would have perished and now behold I shall lay up much fruit which the tree thereof hath brought forth and the fruit thereof I shall lay up agai
nst the season unto mine own self so this is what Jacob 5 says does happen this is what Professor hes the professor of uh botney I think it was from BYU said does not happen and it's what poor uise over in Spain is being asked in front of a camera to comment on and he gives the correct response in as politic a way as he possibly can but he's being honest and saying how it really happens and here you got Scott Christopher saying well that sounds like the Book of Mormon to me and then uh wh I don'
t know where that went let's see here let me add that one so there's the other one if you wanted to again uh this is the one about the poor spot of ground where he uh the master of the vineyard in Jacob 5 plants a tree a poor spot of ground produces great fruit because he takes care of it and nourishes it for a long time yeah and when you go to the article wh that's going to be the clip so let me add this and this is my fault everybody I was goofing around with these right before the show and I
have two y I have two different additions of this yep no biggie so this is the other part from the article by Professor hes good plants can emerge from poor soil once again this is something that the Jacob allegory says that is wrong example of interpretations that violate Botanical rules good plants can emerge from poor soil that doesn't happen and then he goes on and talks about it I don't really care to say any more than that but I mean duh this is not even rocket science Obviously good plant
s are not going to come out of poor soil that's why you get good soil okay duh and but the Book of Mormon part we read indicates that that is true and so now Scott Christopher is going to be asking uise well you know if you took a tree and put it in bad soil could it produce good fruit and poor uise has to tell the truth in the Book of Mormon it talks about uh a tree for example being planted in a bad part of the vineyard of the Orchard in on bad soil would an olive tree grow in bad soil and if
so what would be the difference between planting it in good soil let's see it would definitely be a tree that would have less vegetation it would be smaller uh it would be um less productive but I think that if there is a tree that can adapt to B soil it is the Olive Tree so my question question is how is Scott Christopher still a member of the church after doing the show yeah you could see the guy like trying to work with him you know it yeah it's going to be small it's not going to really make
any fruit it's probably not going to do that great but I mean you know push comes to shove I guess the Olive Tree maybe if any tree is gonna do all right it's going to be the Olive Tree yeah yeah yeah exactly and so how do they leave this in the movie I don't understand I'm glad they did obviously it makes for great uh programming here on Mormonism live but on the two main things that the professor professor Hess from BYU says the Jacob allegory gets wrong they ask an expert presumably uis is a
n expert they ask him if this would happen and he tells them no it wouldn't and no it wouldn't and they're left going wow this is great evidence for the Book of Mormon and you'll see him summarize it here as the Drone f away watching him walk into the distance in this Olive Vineyard or Olive Orchard there's some confusion there too about how fantastic this is and my my goodness my my testimony is strengthened by this information uise thank you so much this has been so eye-opening and so cool for
what it is that we're trying to accomplish thank you we were we hopefully we'll get you a copy of the Book of Mormon before we leave we will um and maybe we'll see you again sometime thanks so much appreciate it oh nice threw in a little English for us you know it's interesting to see how how accurate the allegory is from a a purely uh Horticultural standpoint who's writing this yeah it it and that happened in part one too where the answer they got was not was like the opposite but you just go
with it what other choice do you have you've flown all the way to Spain you've taken a camera crew you've got apologist helping you write the script and make sure you ask the right things and then the expert tells you the opposite of what you're looking for what choice do you have to go find another expert like this is the guy this is who you came to see he he didn't give you the right answer and you got no choice but to pretend he did uh it's just amazing to me I would just have scrapped this w
hole thing and maybe gone back to the and featured him for the whole 38 minutes yeah and let him just spiritualize that was way better off right yes okay here's the next clip you know what's amazing everywhere I've traveled so far there's been a new piece of information or evidence that just continues to add to my appreciation and love for the Book of Mormon it's Divinity if you will it reminds me a little bit of a verse in Elma 30 that talks about all things denote that there is a God the alleg
ory of the Olive Tree is a beautiful example of this evidence that is both beautiful and inspiring at the same time all things but olive Orchards denote that there is a God yeah there are way more problems with Jacob chapter 5 than Olive horda culture let's get into it so folks oh yes uh let me just read here there are this is is off of another website there are two major biblical passages that provided structural material for this Parable and a number of shorter passages that supplied secondary
ideas the primary passages are Isaiah's parable of the vineyard contained in Isaiah chap 5 1-7 uh and Paul's discussion of the relationship of Israel to the Gentiles Romans 116-24 in which he uses the Met of an olive tree so in other words the metaphor or analogy or parable of the vineyard that Isaiah uses is completely different in a completely different place than the parable of the Olive Tree that Paul uses or at least whoever the author is that we alleg to be Paul um that these two passages
provided the framework upon which Joseph Smith built his Parable is evident from several sources firstly both passages were quoted by Smith earlier in the Book of Mormon narrative Isaiah's song of The Vineyard is found in second Nephi chapter 15 and Paul's section in Colossians was alluded to in first Nephi chapter 10 12 through 14 and other passages secondly several ideas presented in Zenus Parable can be found in these two passages uh a well- tended Vineyard failed to produce good fruit is al
so a major theme of Isaiah's passage uh the contrast between wild and tame or natural fruit is found in Isaiah Paul's discourse Joseph Smith from Paul's discourse Joseph Smith obtained the idea of wild and natural branches cross grafting branches between trees uh there's verbatim quotes from Isaiah uh specifically in the land owners lament quote what could I have done more for my Vineyard that's right out of Isaiah in Jacob 5:41 um it's echoed in Isaiah's Parable quote what could have been done
more to my Vineyard that I have not done in it so there you see the similarity um while Paul used an olive tree in light of this it is significant that the prophet Zenus appears to display some confusion about his metaphor the parable of the vineyard begins with Israel as an olive tree located in a Vineyard Jacob 5:3 however halfway through the narrative the metaphor suddenly switches to the vineyard itself significantly just at the point that the Book of Mormon quotes Isaiah ja Jacob chapter 5
verse 41 from this point on the author repeatedly refers to the Trees of the vineyard apparently forgetting that the parable started out with olive trees as the primary metaphor not grape Vines notice that halfway through Jacob 5 it switches to the fruit of the vineyard which olives aren't now in today's world we have this science of figuring out what's a fruit and what's a vegetable what's this what's that but by old standards if it's sweet it was a fruit and if it wasn't it was a vegetable rig
ht like we have this kind of the delineation that we sort of do in Modern Times by looking at whether the thing has seeds or all the other kinds of things we do but in that day olives of course wouldn't be considered a fruit by any uh by any standard I want to note too that there is Luke chap 13 6-9 is also in Jacob chapter 5 and I also want to note here unfruitful branches being honed down and burnt is found in Matthew 3:10 and John 15:6 Matthew 3:10 was quoted verba om in Elma 5:52 which was d
ictated before the book of Jacob According to some theories verse 8 of Matthew chapter 3 bring forth therefore fruit meat for repentance is quoted several times in the Book of Mormon Elma 12 uh verse 15 uh chapter 13 verse 13 and chapter 34:30 uh and then I want to kind of go here uh Isaiah chapter 5 you can pause this and read it you will see several similarities and even direct overlap with what is used in Jacob chapter 5 so this is about 20 or 23 uh chapters before Jacob 5 the allegory of Isa
iah is quoted in the Book of Mormon yes and so essentially just before Joseph Smith gets to Jacob chapter 5 he is reminded by going into these other two places Colossians in the New Testament in Isaiah in the Old Testament and he gets these two thematic uh ideas and then just a few chapters later he meshes them together but with problems and plagiarizing several pieces of the new testament which have no business being in the Book of Mormon anyway um so Isaiah chapter 5 first Nephi chapter 10 and
then Paul is alluded to ro I'm sorry I said Colossians but it's Romans Romans chap 11 uh in 1 Nephi 101 12-14 if you compare Isaiah 5 and Romans 11 to the Book of Mormon you end up seeing that whoever the author of The Book of Mormon is they are borrowing thematically and even directly exact language from Old and New Testament scriptures um one thing I said to you guys earlier is that remember Jacob chapter 5 is supposed to be scripture by a lost Prophet Zenus we have no record of Zenus ever ex
isting and here he is using old he's using New Testament he'd be an Old Testament prophet he is using New Testament uh language and thematic material in his writings so the only apologetic response to this would be that the New Testament writers are aware of Zenus and also the Book of Mormon authors would somehow be aware of Zenus uh presumably from the brass plates except if the New Testament authors were aware of Zenus then by that point we would all know that Zenus existed um it's not that th
ere is these significant parts of the New Testament that are lost especially when authors are borrowing earlier things even things like Q Source people are able to sort of figure out that there is this heavily borrowed material um so I just want to note that and then I want to finish off here just saying saying it's not only uh Isaiah and Romans it's Luke chap 13 Matthew chapter 3 John chapter 15 and it shows that some of those copings there just below so you can pause that and read those if you
'd like can you go back just a second yeah this is something that actually surprised me and I don't know why but two of the phrases that are virtually uni unque to Jacob 5 allegory are dunging and cumber they unusual uses of words in uh the scriptures and yet in Luke 13 where he's talking about a similar thing he uses both those expressions I shall dig about it and dung it that's from Luke 138 and Luke 13:7 the verse before before says why cereth it the ground and both of those expressions we fi
nd translated directly into the same English I don't know if a translation is the correct word the same words appear in Jacob 5 a number of times yeah it would almost seem evident that whoever the author of The Book of Mormon is they are copying directly New Testament scriptures well if you took this jacob chapter 5 and that was a a creative writing assignment for you in High School Mr real and you turned it into your teach teacher and she was aware of these other background uh references what k
ind of grade do you think you would get I not only would get an f and fail the uh the paper I probably fail the class and I'm probably expelled for plagiarism I think she would flag you for plagiarism at a minimum yeah um I want to note here remember Joseph and the you noted this earlier Joseph and the Smiths are farmers would grafting be understood by them fruit trees of the same genus but different varieties are compatible for grafting and then at list all of the various fruit trees that at le
ast on some level this sort of uh horiculture or uh Farm uh farming Concepts would have been understood by them as you pointed out these are farmers farmer families going back Generations so I want to say this in conclusion number one The Smiths were farmers and many fruit trees in the area could be grafted Joseph would come to this story with a degree of Competency to expound on the Old and New Testament scriptures that are on his mind number two the Book of Mormon author already shows they are
familiar with the Bible's use of the Olive Tree grafting and The Vineyards as Isaiah 5 is quoted in second Nephi 15 shortly before Jacob 5 and Paul's material seems to be present in first Nephi chapter 10 so he is nudged to be thinking about these things because he's already inserting them in an earlier part of the Book of Mormon that the concepts and themes this is number three the concepts and themes in Jacob 5 seem to heavily borrow primarily from Isaiah 5 in Romans 11 and finally a signific
ant theme seems plagiarized from Luke 13 and other New Testament scriptures are in this chapter of Jacob chapter 5 and that rather than be evidence of an ancient text at this point there is little doubt especially when you combine it with the horiculture heirs that such is recrating and plagiarizing to create Jacob chapter 5 Jacob chapter 5 is actually counter evidence demonstrating that the Book of Mormon is anything but an ancient narrative that's a great conclusion it looks like somebody in t
he audience Sarah Richie was pointing out that the the Christmas carol The 12 Days of Christmas is replete with cognitive accusatives or whatever you call it to it is 12 drumers drumming Le Pipers piping I guess Maids of milking doesn't work but there's a lot of them that do yeah good point must be an ancient text doubt your doubts yeah good Heavens I think I just channeled The Silver Fox that sounded just like him didn't it it did I was gonna find because I'm so horse from coughing so much for
this this hay fever or whatever I've got going on doubt your doubts good oh I'm sorry can I do it again doubt your doubts just like him doubt your doubts I'll be back all right now are you ready for the next clip yes sir you know it's amazing everywhere I've traveled so far there's been a new piece of information or evidence that just continues to add to my appreciation and love for the Book of Mormon it's Divinity if you will it reminds me a little bit of a verse in Elma 30 that talks about all
things denote that there is a God the allegory of the Olive Tree is a beautiful example of this evidence that is both beautiful and inspiring at the same time just doesn't have anything to do with ancient horiculture oh man I wonder they did with uiz I don't see him in that last scene I hope he's okay and I think that was actually a replay of something we already did but let's uh I had more jokes that's okay no you're good all right so now we go to section four moroni's promise and please under
stand this is just a little over halfway through this already brief they've got so much evidence that they want to share with us about the Book of Mormon they take a tenth off the top they don't talk about it until they get about 5 minutes into it and now they're a little over halfway through they've thrown up their hands and they're going to talk they're going to have a fast and testimony meeting now with one lady from Spain really for the rest of the show and they're going to call it good Moro
ni the last prophet in the book of of Mormon invites us to read the book and ask God if it's true I've accepted moroni's invitation and have made a personal prayerful study of the Book of Mormon I felt the powerful yet peaceful witness from God of the truthfulness of this book yet this spiritual witness is nearly impossible to explain to someone else unless they've gone through it themselves as a missionary I saw this happen for people who accepted moroni's invitation miraculous stories of conve
rsion due to the Book of Mormon itself are Myriad they form an amazing body of evidence from real people with real lives that cannot be ignored I'm sorry did you say something I was I was dozing I think no no just we're just back to after all this BS that we have said about things that don't mean what we said they mean and again remember folks this is their best evidence if there was better evidence it'd be the evidence they were presenting this is the best evidence and it is so not what it's cl
aimed to be um so now we get to the end where it's like hey the evidence doesn't really cut it so now we have to use the old fallback for Mormonism which is moroni's promise you ask God God will tell you and and once you have that answer you can know with assurity that heavenly father has told you the Book of Mormon is true Joseph Smith is his Prophet this is his church these are his prophet seers and revelators and here's where the priesthood Keys reside and I will tell you I can understand if
they spent the last five minutes doing that because they always want to give that Primacy of place right but they know somebody knows how many episodes of this are planned and are in the works some somebody knows what the evidences are that they want to put in each one and I would like to think that if there was a lot of evidence they would be straining at the bit to cram as much evidence into each episode as they possibly could but they don't seem to be doing that they seem to be rationing the
evidence and taking a little bit here and a little bit in this episode and a little bit over here even if when it doesn't mean what we're saying it means so that they will have enough of their meager supply of evidence to last out through the duration of these videos however many they're going to have that's the sense I'm getting yeah and I we were talking about this before the show started we all you know we all know in this space what the apologists like to use as evidence right they've pretty
much run through it they're to the point where they're now spending half a video on spiritual experiences because they're running out I was telling you I I sort of wondered if maybe they would have uh the the festival that sort of maybe if you close one eye and squint with the other you can see it in the Book of Mormon I forget what the name of that was of Tabernacles yeah King mosiah the T around the temple absolutely that's what's happening there you're gonna see probably Benjamin I'm sorry a
t the beginning of mesiah go ahead yeah you're gonna probably see that spot in central America where King Benjamin could have could have stood and the Echo goes a little further of his speaking right you're that's where we're getting to and folks uh we'll be right there to deconstruct those ideas too once we get to them but they are they're getting to the bottom of the barrel and uh I can't imagine they have two more episodes left that would be hard to Envision this is how and remember what the
subtitle of this is we're not putting this burden on them they have taken this burden upon themselves they have titled their series a marvelous work in a wonder the greatness of the evidences that's what this whole thing is supposed to be about so they have set forth the standard which they are supposed to meet which they have promised us by titling it that they promised us they're going to meet and I'm finding that they are not meeting their Promises at least in the way that I would have expect
ed from the title of these videos yeah there he goes that was a good look I never could have imagined that I would have had these opportunities to see and understand the Book of Mormon like this and I'm so glad that you were able to join me on this episode we're not done by a long shot there's still a lot to discover and unravel and explore within this book a lot of places to go and a lot of people to talk to I'm Scott Christopher thanks for joining me in this episode we'll be back again soon to
uncover more evidence and to hear the stories and testimonies of those people whose lives have been forever changed by a marvelous work [Music] didn't wait to see you next [Music] time crazy idea Bill wouldn't it be crazy if they got to what I consider to be a really strong evidence for the Book of Mormon that I discovered and published on about the ancient Hebrew numerology in the Book of Mormon wouldn't that be crazy if they ended up talking to me about that so I don't think I'll be on there
they haven't contacted me yet though I have a few unanswered phone calls um but if they talk to some that would be that would be like a dream come true oh please let it be let it be yeah they they can't go to the expert on that one can they well I'm right here you'd welcome that chance to talk to them yeah I would and I would I would run it up the flag pole and salute it yeah they'd have to take you to some cool destination and talk about Don kyote which by the way I thought it was so interestin
g they start off the whole video we didn't play that clip but start off the whole video talking about a fictional story of donot and relating it to finding the truth of the Book of Mormon I just want to say one more thing here rfm in regards to spiritual experiences for the Believers who have followed us this far um I know in Mormonism we are told that the Holy Ghost is the way that we know that things are true it doesn't matter what Bill reel says or what radio free Mormon says what Maven says
it's that I felt the spirit and I know the church is true and I just want to say in a way the church has tricked you because there's a normal thing that all humans experience called elevation emotion go into Google type it in check it out on Wikipedia All Humans feel and they can be manipulated falsely to feel it it's not something that happens because good things happen it's something that the human mind and body experiences simply by perceiving that something good is happening but elevation of
motion is where you feel a warmth in your chest primarily in your heart region a burning of the bosom you will get tingles you will uh have your brain tell you uh kind of expand and have like a feeling of goodness and well-being for the world and I want to note that uh so on one hand everybody can feel that and they can be manipulated to feel it Mormonism comes along and goes you know what we can utilize that to have people feel the spirit and know that we're telling the truth another side of t
he coin is that there are numerous religions out there and almost all of them have adherence who know by some spiritual experience that their religion is the one true religion if I walked into a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses and I said would would everyone here who knows that the Jehovah's Witness faith is the one true faith and knows it because of some spirit spiritual experience that you have had half the people in that room would raise their hand now if you go to YouTube there are three
videos I would highly recommend uh spiritual Witnesses you see them on the screen there spiritual Witnesses and then the one at the bottom can she really know is sort of a shorter cut of that top video and then uh Mormon stories did a conversation with LDS discussions called Mormon spiritual Witnesses episode 17 88 when you watch those three what you will learn is that everyone across time in all religions everyone across this moment and all the religions that exist today there are adherence of
every religion who feel spiritual things and know that their faith is true and once you understand that it becomes you would have to be biased in some way to go yeah but I know my experience is true I wasn't n tricked and in some way their experience isn't because some of these religions their claims absolutely contradict the truth claims of Mormonism in other words both things can't be true and whatever excuse you make for them you would be it would be inappropriate for you to Grant some uh ex
tra loophole that your testimonies true but theirs isn't and once you acknowledge that maybe yours is just as false as theirs now you have to figure out what really does indicate that something is true good point we call it special pleading in the law where you plead something special for your client that you would never you know plead for anybody else who wasn't your client um I just want everybody to know I'm not totally being Pie in the Sky about that idea that they might come up with somethi
ng that I've written about because over at scripture Central they have my many of my papers for my apologetic days published and cited to regularly on their their website I was just going to look it up here scripture Central because I saw it the other day here we go there do not put it up there oh I'm so sorry I should not have done that yeah don't do that okay hello I'm glad I didn't have up on the screen I it's under a different name than Radio free Mormon Believe it or I saw why we couldn't d
o that but they weren't kind enough oh lady they weren kind enough to name you Radio free Mormon okay I did it an under another pseudonym I'm so glad I didn't have that already on the screen it would have definitely happened so okay well that's we've avoided catastrophe yet again on Mormonism live yeah are we making any calls tonight uh yeah but I didn't get any of that ready I don't know are we done uh it's up to you we can certainly do calls if you'd like but I didn't get ourselves ready to do
that so it'll take me a minute while you're doing that I just wanted just for a point of curiosity um I just remembered a little bit ago something that I saw ages ago um I'm going to go ahead and share this uh it's a it was done as an art thing so I don't I don't know how much this like would actually be realistic but it's a a tree of 40 fruit and uh yeah so 40 different kinds of fruit tree branches were all grafted onto this one tray and it's very pretty looking um again I don't know what the
yield would be from that if it' be useful at all if it if any of these really even survived uh very long but um I just thought it was really pretty looking and really cool and it fascinated me uh like with the idea that if I have like a really tiny property or something maybe I could do something like this someday and uh yeah have a a tree with all these different kinds of fruits so yeah that is beautiful and I'll see I can see if there's any other um uh comments to to share I had a oh a few peo
ple have been asking about funding and of course like I think many things in the church it's it's a bit masked I know on Mormon is uh with Rebecca biblioteca um she and Landon are were wondering if the the event that they were you know attending and then disinvited and reinvites to and then again disinvited to um it was a fundraising event where it was something ridiculous Rebecca you have to tell me in the comments what the price was it was day last SE member 22nd with elder Raz band it was it
was expensive if ick something yeah and uh anyway so Rebecca's wondering if maybe this was the project that that was the fundraiser for but we don't know we don't know so it's just that that was only last September and I'm sure this was well under production by then to be released now in March oh you think so oh yeah everything I I ever produce is always done really quickly it's done and it's put out there so I I don't know what AEL but strangely our stuff is much more factually accurate yeah we
ll I mean I think well it's easier when you can just go with the facts so maybe that's it when you've you've got to tell the story then you need a lot more time to uh storyboard that and build it up and make a lot of I don't know maybe maybe there was a lot of editing done and this really is the best uh the you know the cream of the crop and uh and the what they cut out was way worse um who knows yeah can you imagine it being worse than that I I mean yeah honestly and then that that last third w
e didn't talk about it go ahead and watch it for yourselves please we want the numbers up there above 62,000 for them but go ahead and watch it and you'll see what we're talking about there's this nice Spanish lady that Scott talks to he sits down on the Park Bench with her in a park and she tells a story about her husband who's now deceased and how he wanted to find out what was true and he went to this church he went to that religion uh they packed up everything went to India for a while or so
mething then he comes back and there's a book of Mormon on top of the box when he opens it up oh my gosh I got to read it he reads the whole thing like parley P Pratt in one setting then he runs off to find the missionaries and get baptized and that's what they spend the last quarter to a third of this production on I was thinking I we meant to say this or I I meant to say this at the beginning but um with this whole show I I had said earlier to you guys that it can be summed up by trying to the
y're trying so hard to connect the Book of Mormon to the ancient past when everything has a contemporary has forwarded to an automated voice messaging system sorry about that hearing it from Bill yeah so it's just a it doesn't matter how much you can make a connection to the ancient history when you know everything Joseph had olive trees he do about grafting there were Almas around um it just it doesn't help and um yeah no when you're going take it came to pass as a definite evidence for the Boo
k of Mormon when at the same time as you're saying it's all over the Old Testament you know that you're in the tank and you're not able to see things objectively all right I've got one call here another person did call I think I did cut it off I think her name was Sarah so Sarah if you want to call back i' I'd love to have you be a to talk with us but I believe this is Ted uh Ted are you there yes sir I am okay go ahead my friend you're on Mormonism live with radio free Mormon and Bill real yes
I was just commenting because um one of the things that you guys didn't mention and I I I loved watching this show but um um you guys didn't piece together the um the Olive Tree and the vineyard which was part of that whole um that whole series and um if you read the book of Mormon and see those two stories together um you you can tell like where they piece things from because that's one of the big things that they tout is the the um you know how how they how they had those two stories together
and piece it together but anyway but so one of the things but I watched that so T Ted Ted is what is what you're saying if we took the sources and put them together in a different way that it would have been more obvious where the cribbing was coming from yes sir that's that's what I feel because um when I first read um The Book of Mormon and uh I was like taught by the elders I was like well yeah maybe that is amazing but then once I learned like where they pieced it from it's like that's that'
s ridiculous like you can you can see where it came from but yeah that was my that was my point to it and um you know that I don't know what is going on lately but you know they have the um the Heartland theory and the meso American Theory and they're both right and they're both wrong it it it's pieced together but yeah that was my point to that yeah thank thank you appreciate that and I think that's true if you go back and if you actually line those up together and do your own study on it rathe
r than listen to people talk about it however audite that discussion may be it's always more powerful to me if I'm seeing it myself side by side and I'm going that that was why I had that reaction Ted to cuming and dunging from Luke Chapter 13 and I went oh my gosh you gota be kidding they even took those two verbs and put them in the allegory it seems an obvious case case of borrowing and I what I thought he was going to say was that olive trees wouldn't be in Vineyards olive trees would be in
Orchards it's a tree and hence Vineyards would be grapes and vined uh uh but that was something I actually looked into this week to just double check there were multiple articles that spoke about why olive trees are planted in and around Vineyards um and so that is a real connection not that he got it right again we can clearly show that he's talking about Isaiah and talking about Romans um so some folks have been critical of the church in the Book of Mormon by saying Joseph's a dummy why is he
got olive trees and Vineyards everybody knows Vineyards or grapes and I just want you to know the reason we never went into that is because it's actually legitimate that olive trees would be planted in and around Vineyards FYI except if I'm correct and if I remember uh Dan vogle correctly he was pointing out that such a system of planning the two together would be in violation of the law of Moses yeah so they generally wouldn't be uh right next to each other but not with observing Jews yeah that
that's interesting I didn't know that and Dan if you're out there and still watching if you could put that reference because I think it was from I don't know Deuteronomy or something yeah and Sarah never called back and I don't have any other phone calls from somebody I don't know if there maybe was an issue with the phone line I the first time I tried to call the call in studio it messed up and so I had to call myself back and uh I'm not seeing any other calls come through but sorry Sarah yeah
super sorry about that um I will just say this is actually really e these have probably been two of the easiest episodes that we've done in the last six months uh having this conversation around a marvelous work the greatness of the evidence part one and then part two and uh I I hope they do 10 more because I think it really gives us some an easy way to sort of get together and show that this just isn't what these guys are claiming no how would you subtitle this instead of the greatness of the
evidences what would your subtitle be for The Marvelous work in a Wonder series bill I looked into proposed evidence and I left the church and that part May yet to be written for Scott Christopher yeah all right my friend I had a blast Deuteronomy 229 thank you so much Dan oh look at that okay anything else from you rfm that's it thanks everybody I appreciate it and hopefully we'll see you next week same bat Time same bat channel for another episode of Mormonism [Music] live this this idea that
the church is hiding something which we would have to say as two apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the church and know the Integrity of the first presidency in the cor of the 12 from the beginning of time there has been no attempt on the part in any way of the church leaders trying to hide anything from any

Comments

@MormonDiscussion

Might you consider going to the original video https://youtu.be/hXtUbMg0BXg?si=r0erVmucygtEC9Yg and letting Scott and Book of Mormon Central know that their deception around alleged evidence is noticed and is not ethical.

@SleepySloth100

As a never-mo I must admit to struggling a little trying to get my brain round the wherefore and thouest’s got kinda confusing but just coz I’m still learning the lingo. Listened to the whole lot tho which shows the true power of engagement you guys have, even working with my tiny brain-cell! Thank you for all you do, you boys & Maven do a consistently stellar job. Love to you and all in the MD Inc family from across the pond in Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 ❤

@casterrunner8709

You two are absolutely fabulous! Thank you! Eternally grateful!

@CandlewickLibrary

It’s so crazy to watch this and know that the people that watch the show faithfully will just glaze right over the fact that the olive tree answers didn’t match. This will be faith building for so many people I think, and they won’t even realize it’s ridiculous.

@user-jl3zb9ej6d

Great episode. One thing I would add on Hebrew cognates, there are examples of them in the Bible, which Joseph Smith could have noticed, and the use of Cognate Objects is also found in English literature. It is not limited to Hebrew.

@kledjadauti2340

Bills reactions while playing this are hilarious😂

@canpow98

Such a good belly laugh at RFM’s joke - “How is Scott still an active Mormon after doing this show?”

@perryekimae

6:45 Can we all just celebrate how kind and generous Rabbi Joe Charnes was in engaging with these apologists. Just the nicest possible guy. I was so impressed with how patient and magnanimous he was in giving the Book of Mormon as much credit as he possibly could. Secular blessings be upon him! 7:30 First thing I noticed too RFM. Articulated my feelings so well! 14:48 Nail on the head, Maven! 22:32 Oh man, they cut out his first response and jumped right to Sidal's law, which is silly enough for this space. His first response is about the "many ands", which can easily be refuted by referencing Armaments, chapter 2, verses 9 to 21. As to the Sidal's law example provided, that verse in 2 Nephi 28 is very obviously referring to Isaiah 28. It also refers to Luke. So, maybe not the best evidence of a 6th century BCE origin of that passage... But yeah, Bill is spot on for why this line of apologetics, broadly, is a non-starter for the Book of Mormon at its present level of evidentiary support. 41:07 Love this refresh on the Alma takedown. They couldn't even go with an interesting one like "Jershon"? Seriously? I could make a more compelling apologetic case. 45:05 The cognate verbs claim is beyond silly. Leans on English cognate verbs because he can't show a Hebrew one that would make better sense of the text than it stands as translated. 49:09 And it came to pass constitutes 2% of the first edition of the Book of Mormon. 1:19:13 Zenos is the most influential vanishing Old Testament prophet of the them all. To influence so many other texts and just vanish from history is almost more impressive than anything else. Or, ya know, Joseph made it up. Great stuff! Love seeing apologetics fall apart under the weight of its own BS.

@barryrichins

If I, as a literature professor, were to compare Don Quijote to the Book of Mor;mon, I would say Cervantes develops well-rounded characters and the author of the Book of Mormon writes flat characters with no depth. Cervantes writes with great detail, and the reader knows where Quijote is in Spain. In the Bom, we never know where the characters are. As far as I know, their are no anachronisms in Don Quijote, yet the BOM Is full of them. Just one is enough to prove the BOM is not ancient. Don Quijote develops a sense of drama that guides to the unraveling of the story that is generally satisfying to readers. The BOM, to me, is quite hard to follow, especially the minor book's writer's words and who all the groups of people are. In the BOM, the addition of "all" the Isaiah chapter serves little more than filler and is boring to read. The BOM is full of plagiarism. There may be plagiarism in Don Quijote, and if there is, it is not obvious to me. Parts of the BOM are not well thought out. For example, If one of the air-tight Jaredite barges were to turn over while at sea, all of the food containers, water barrels or skins, bedding, human excretion pots, animal excretion, furniture, adults, children, and livestock, including bees, will tumble together. The horses and cattle will kick and lunge, and the mad bees will sting every one in the barge. Those that are not killed will die of wounds, thirst, infection or starvation by the end of the week after the turnover. The only comparison I can make of the BOM and Don Quijote is that of a comic book and a book that,second to the Bible, is the most published book in the world. I have read the book and acted in the Man of La Mancha: loved doing both.

@MalcolmLeitch1

On the subject of names in the Book of Mormon, one thing that I have never seen addressed is the fact that almost every name in the BofM is easy to pronounce. Compared to names on the Old Testament where peoples names are almost always hard to pronounce and longer than most Western names like names in the BofM.

@cyberdevil3000

Why would hypothetical hebraisms even matter in the Book of Mormom if it was supposedly written in reformed Egyptian? Are we supposed to believe that the writers of the Book of Mormon incorporated hebraisms into a language that is completely different from Hebrew and that those Hebraisms were then translated out of reformed Egyptian into English by Joseph Smith? The whole thing just seems ridiculous on the face of it

@JeffNealsPlace

Hey Bill, are we not all living in Bizarro World.. lol. I have some pretty interesting theories on this. Glad to finally hear someone besides myself use that term.

@edbutzwiggle4227

Informative and hilarious. Thanks y’all.

@erintucker934

Great job lady and gentlemen as always! Both entertaining and enraging. Oyyy

@sleepycalico

MAVEN, probably others have already said this, but, yes, that beautiful multi-grafted tree will thrive and it would be an excellent choice for a small yard. Each of the grafts will remain true to its original fruit. That's where JS got it wrong: He thought the fruit on the graft would take on the characteristics of the tree to which it was grafted. My Dad used to graft different fruits on to one tree. He was on an acre, so he didn't need to, but he enjoyed it as a gardening project and showing them off to visitors. I see these multi-grafted trees for sale sometimes at big gardening centers.

@CJ-hw6br

As always - when it comes down to the pray-to-know pitch (Moroni’s Promise) - IF I get the happy feels that the BoM is true, is it okay to join a branch of Mormonism that isn’t the Brighamite’s? 🧐 I’m guessing… no.

@ShulaMG

I’m 15 minutes in. Maven is so right. A few minutes later, good for you, Bill. As for the rest, this is a great critique. Does the original film host think he is adept at the Jedi Mind Trick?

@OuttaMyMind911

If Jacob 5 is truly a “literary masterpiece” like the video’s host claims, then where is the recognition in academic circles? The BoM has been around for about a couple hundred years now. Where are the college literature courses that have a BoM section in the curriculum? Where are the universities that teach about the ancient history of the Americas and use the BoM as a guide because of the “greatness of the evidence”? Spoiler alert. None do. Because there isn’t any good evidence to support these claims. I’ll even bet BYU academics don’t insert the BoM into areas outside the actual religion classes.

@rockthemic12

Showing an ancient example of the name Alma just helps refute the claim that the use of the name is an anachronism. But, I agree with Bill and RFM’s conclusion that it doesn’t support the claim that the Book of Mormon has an ancient origin.

@Slammu640

Ok so the horticulture guy reminded me of a BYU paper I read years ago about the BoM taking place at Baja California bc the climate was most similar to Israel's for growing crops. Super interesting