年紀稍大的朋友應該聽過一句話
More mature audience might have heard of the phrase 「行路上廣州」
"Going back to Guangzhou on foot" 這句話本來嘲笑一些人
It is an old saying mocking those 作出所謂「戇居」的行為
engaging in "stupid behaviour" 但背後其實反映出
But behind it, it reflects the close connection between 香港跟廣州
Hong Kong and Guangzhou, 以至華南地區的緊密聯繫
or even the South China region 今天我們來到香港城市大學
Today, we've come to City University of Hong Kong 訪問中文及歷史學系的
to speak with Professor Ching May Bo 程美寶教授
from the Department of Chinese and History 程教授曾
於廣州中山大學
Professor Ching had worked at Sun Yat-sen University 長期進行教學及研究
in Guangzhou during her early career 絕對有資格跟我們探討
She is certainly qualified to discuss the close connection 兩地的緊密聯繫
between the two places with us 今天很高興有機會
Today, we are delighted to have the opportunity 跟程教授討論
to discuss with Professor Ching 我們其實是學長學妹
In fact, we are of the same generation of doctoral students in UK 其實你的學術軌跡比較特別
Your academic journey is quite unique 當時你在牛津大學取得博士學位後
After obtaining your doctoral degree from Ox
ford, 你便長時間在內地工作
you spent an extended period working in the mainland 之後返回香港工作
And then you returned to Hong Kong 你覺得這兩個地方
Do you feel there is a noticeable difference 研究歷史的氛圍
in the research atmosphere for history, 無論在研究人員或者學生的水平表現上
or in terms of performance of researchers 有沒有明顯的分別？
between these two places? 由我1997年最初去中山大學
I have seen significant changes between the time, 到我大概在2015年左右回來香港
when I first went to Sun Yat-sen University in 1997, 見到有很大的變化
and when I returned to Hong Kong in 2015, 首先
是資源 ， 即是教育部
Firstly, in terms of resources, the Chinese Ministry of Education, 越來越多錢投放在
has been increasing allocation of funds 人文及社會科學
towards humanities and social sciences 這是以前沒有的
This wasn't the case before 第二就是見到它有梯隊的培養
Secondly, there is a well-structured 第二就是見到它有梯隊的培養
talent nurturing and promotion strategy 所以我今日見到
Today, you can find 很多已經是備受認可的學者
many established leaders in the field, 其實是大概四十歲的一批人
who are just around the age of forty 跟着便是他們的學科訓練
They are all very well trained, 因為都有不同的傳統
and have been educated in different scholarly traditions 所以見到他們都很紮實
They have produced really solid works 另外就是資料
Another aspect is availability of data 大量資料的出現
The rapid digitisation of source materials 以及數碼化
has produced a large amounts of data 亦令到整個學科發展得很快
And this has greatly facilitated 亦令到整個學科發展得很快
the development of the discipline in mainland China 而在香港 ， 我覺得真是相差太遠
The development in Hong Kong can hardly match that 因為在香港
Because resources available for 投放在人文學科的資源很少
the study of humanities
subjects are very limited 再投放在歷史的話
and it is even worse for the study of history 一個學系只有十個 、 八個老師
A history department typically has around 8 to 10 faculty members 香港人普遍有個概念
There is a general belief among Hong Kong people 就是在內地做歷史研究
that there are many taboos 會否存在很多禁區 、 很多限制？
in historical research in the mainland, 這樣不可做 ， 那樣又不可做？
and there are a lot of issues you should not touch upon 你說完全沒有又不是
It is not entirely wrong to say so 再加上大家都知道
And we are aware that there are more restraints, 近年又多了一些限
制 ， 包括出版限制
including restrictions on publications in recent years 有些關鍵字或者課題
And if your works are related to certain keywords or topics 比較會麻煩
you may get into trouble 但是大家做研究已經一直如是
But mainland researchers 但是大家做研究已經一直如是
have long been navigating these challenges 我亦看不到會完全停止
Research is unlikely to cease 不做哪種研究
due to these constraints 其實是繼續用不同的方法去做
They always find a way to do their research despite all these 但香港史在內地的史學研究裏
Is there a general interest in Hong Kong history 其實是否普遍存在
among historians
in mainland China? 即是大家有些興趣做這個題目
Is it a popular area of research? 抑或其實沒有的？
Or does it not get a lot of attention? 肯定是少
The interest is limited 因為首先你要看到那些資料不是那麼容易
Firstly, it is not easy to get access to data 因為你可能要到英國 、 香港
You may have to go to the UK or Hong Kong 去看檔案
to access archives 你要熟習整個
You also need to be familiar with 殖民政府的運作
the operations of the colonial administration 我見到的是人數是少
I can only name a few mainland scholars 都有一兩位
working on Hong Kong history 你知道有人在做
There are certainly s
ome scholarly works on these topics 但是他可能做完那個 ， 再做這些課題
But these are mostly isolated research efforts 他會有些困難
There might be some difficulties 我們討論另一個範疇
Let's talk about another issue 你最近出版了一本書
You recently published a book 關於香港太平戲院老闆的日記
on the diary of the owner 關於香港太平戲院老闆的日記
of the Tai Ping Theatre in Hong Kong 其實很詳細記錄了
The book meticulously records 這間戲院的興衰改變
the rise and fall of this theatre 為甚麼會有這個研究開始？
What is your motivation behind this project? 它的第三代院主
The third-generation owner of the the
atre, 源碧福女士
Ms. Yuen Bik-fook, Beryl 在太平戲院結業後
carefully organised the files and documents 很小心將有關的檔案 、 資料
and other items and materials 她父親和爺爺的很多東西整理好
left by her father and grandfather 存放在一邊
after the closure of the Tai Ping Theatre 到了她自己覺得年紀大
As she got older 這些東西怎麼辦？
she wondered what to do with these materials 結果她選擇捐出絕大部分的檔案 、 文件 、 文獻
She eventually donated the majority of these materials 給政府的相關部門
to various relevant government departments 但是日記是很私人的東西
But the diaries are very private items 我覺
得如果它真的是完全很私人的事
I believe that if it is truly private content, 就不應該出版
it shouldn't be published 但它事實是涉及很多
But the diaries also contain details 太平戲院的院務
of the Tai Ping Theatre’s operations, 以及當時香港粵劇 、 電影
and the development of Cantonese opera, movies, 及民生各方面的發展
and various aspects of daily life in Hong Kong during that time 我覺得如果不出版是很可惜的
I feel it would be a pity not to publish it 但是亦要尊重他的私隱
but also respect the privacy of the owners 我非常感謝源女士
I am very grateful to Ms. Yuen 絕大部分的日記內容她說保留
She allows
me to publish the majority of the diary's contents 日記集非常生動地表現了
The publication vividly portrays 一位男士在1926到1949年之間的生活軌跡
the life of a gentleman between 1926 and 1949 那本日記裏其實都看到
As revealed in the diary, 太平戲院在當時除了是一個娛樂場所
besides being an entertainment venue 一個地標之外
and a landmark 它也發揮一個頗重要的角色
the Tai Ping Theatre also played a significant role in other fields 它不是單純一間戲院
It wasn't just a cinema 而是一個表演場地
It was also a venue of performing arts 特別是粵劇 ， 對嗎？
especially for Cantonese opera, right? 它當時的情況是
怎樣？
What was the situation like back then? 更加重要是粵劇
The theatre played a crucial role in promoting Cantonese opera 未有電影時
especially before the advent of sound motion movie 如果由她爺爺開始算起
Back to her grandfather's days 哪怕是默片 ， 都還未引入香港
even silent films had not yet entered the Hong Kong market 所以最初絕對是一個粵劇場所
So it was definitely a venue for Cantonese opera in the beginning 當時無論是廣州 、 香港 、 上海
During that time, you can find this type of venue 都有這種戲院
in Guangzhou, Hong Kong, or Shanghai 它的結構是西式
These theatr
es were western-style architecture 過去演出戲曲
In the past, Chinese opera performances 一是在家中的私人花園
either took place in private gardens of the homes 或者是官府的私人花園
of rich people or government officials 一是就在戶外搭一個戲棚
Otherwise, they would set up temporary outdoor structures 有蓋的室內戲院是晚清才出現
Permanent indoor theatres only emerged in the late Qing dynasty 可以說香港 、 廣州 、 上海都是
It can be said that Hong Kong, Guangzhou, and Shanghai 在這個潮流下興建這些戲院
built these theatres in response to this trend 她的爺爺聘請了馬師曾
Her grandfather
recruited Ma Si-tsang to his theatre 當時他活躍於東南亞一帶
Ma was a big star in Southeast Asia 回到香港組成 「太平劇團」
He joined the "Tai Ping Opera Troupe" after returning to Hong Kong 而馬師曾早年夥拍的旦角
In the early years, Ma always performed with another female star, 是譚蘭卿
Tam Lan-hing 他後來就標榜這個做 「太平男女劇團」
The group was promoted as 他後來就標榜這個做 「太平男女劇團」
the "Tai Ping Mixed Cast Opera Troupe" 這亦因為早年香港
It was a selling point because 其實不容許男女共同登上同一個舞台
men and women were not allowed to perform together 其實不容許男女共同登上同一個舞台
on the sa
me stage at the time 後來就有些太平紳士去請願
However, as a result of a petition by several Justices of Peace, 於是就批准可以這樣做
the restriction was overturned 他便將劇團稱作
Mr. Yuen then named the troupe 「太平男女劇團」
the "Tai Ping Mixed Cast Opera Troupe" 他們有一次例如演出 《王寶川 （釧）》
One of their performance was "Lady Precious Stream" 日記便顯示了
The Governor was invited to the show 他怎樣為這一次邀請港督賞劇
and his diary detailed his preparation for the event 又鋪地氈 ， 又擺放鮮花等
There were carpets and flowers etc. 還要提示演員怎樣鞠躬
and there were also instruct
ions 還要提示演員怎樣鞠躬
for the actors on how to greet the guests 太平戲院何時開始播映有聲電影？
When did the Tai Ping Theatre start screening sound films? 如果我沒記錯應該是1932年
In 1932, if I remember correctly 當時已經開始有有聲電影
At that time, sound films had already become popular 你要播映有聲電影
But screening of sound films 便要更換全部設施
required installation of different equipment 源詹勳聽聞周圍戲院都想改變
Mr. Yuen heard that 源詹勳聽聞周圍戲院都想改變
other theatres were considering transitioning to sound films 他反而覺得
But he had a different view on this 「我不想」
"I do
n't want to go down this route,” 「因為如果只有我這間電影院」
"If Tai Ping Theatre remain as it is, 「播映默片」
my cinema can be the sole venue screening silent films" 「我們就更加可以引領潮流」
"we can lead the trend even more" 其實這個牽涉到
There was in fact 當時背後整個電影美學的大辯論
a major debate about film aesthetics at that time 很多人認為默片更加具有藝術價值
Many people believed silent films had greater artistic value 不過他很快便變卦
However, Mr. Yuen quickly changed his mind, 因為他馬上見到（有聲電影）的商業價值
once he saw the commercial value of sound films 所以他當時便投資了一大筆錢
H
e made a huge investment in upgrading the setup of the theatre 把戲院改成可以播映同步聲的有聲電影
a new setting that made screening of sound films possible 為何我有這樣的心把日記出版？
Why do I want to publish this diary? 因為它跟檔案不太一樣
Because personal diary is different from other archival materials 現在留在各個收藏機構的檔案
Some of the materials deposited in various archives 當然很多都是關於太平戲院的運作
tell us a lot about the operations of the Tai Ping Theatre 非常有趣
These are very interesting resources 但是日記是很個人的東西
However, a diary is a very personal t
hing 源詹勳先生或者一般市民
Like most ordinary people, Mr. Yuen wrote his diary 寫的日記沒有想過給人閱讀
without expecting it to be read by the public 它跟名人日記不同
Some celebrities are more calculating 有些名人很有籌謀
They already have the idea of public disclosure in mind 下筆時已經知道要給別人看
when they write their diaries 他不是
Mr. Yuen is not like this 所以是一種很私人的表達
For him, this is a very private expression 我們歷史學亦有一些潮流
There are several new trends in the study of history 一個是生活史 ， 一個是感情的歷史
one is daily life history, and the other is histo
ry of emotion 而日記就是一個佷好的資料
A diary is excellent material for these studies, 揭示人的日常生活 、 人的內心世界
as it can reveal a person's daily routines and emotion 從太平戲院的發展
From the development of the Tai Ping Theatre, 我們看到其實香港由始至終
we can see that Hong Kong, 至少文化上
at least culturally, 跟華南地區
has been closely connected to the South China region, 或者廣東一帶的聯繫是很重要
particularly the Guangdong area 香港真是一個中心
Hong Kong is truly a hub, 她是有這樣的價值 、 作用
Its values and significances as a hub, 才令香港成功
are central to Hong Kong's s
uccess 香港不是自己攬着自己說 「我好叻」
We should not indulge ourselves in our own attributes 而是她作為一個在中國版圖裏的最南點
Hong Kong's success is due to 而是她作為一個在中國版圖裏的最南點
its southernmost location within mainland China 但又是整個東南亞 、 南洋比較北的一點
It is also the northernmost point 但又是整個東南亞 、 南洋比較北的一點
in Southeast Asia and “Nanyang” region 又是向東
It is a very convenient spot for travel 即是太平洋一個很方便的一點
as it also faces the Pacific Ocean on the east 這樣令到人員流散（流動）
All of these conditions 這樣令到人員流散（流動）
have greatly facilitated the movement
of people 她不是簡單地因為有新政權來到
It is not simply because of the arrival of a new regime 即是當時的殖民地政權
That is, the colonial government 又或者是甚麼原因令她有所發揮
or for some other reason that allowed it to thrive; 是很多因素相加
it's a combination of many factors 因此今天我們見到她有些變化
There have been a lot of changes 即是跟八十年代 、 九十年代比較
and developments since the 1980s and 1990s 你不能簡單地說 ， 八 、 九十年代
You can't explain all these with the simple narrative of 「香港人好叻」 這種論述
“Hong Kong people is smart!” 而是我們看到整個歷史過程中
Instead, from the history
of Hong Kong's development 這樣中心的
we can see how Hong Kong acted as a hub, 或者她其中一個節點的角色是怎樣發揮得到
or as one of a key node of a global network 所以就要看歷史
That's why it's important to read history 我在內地 、 即是中山大學
I taught at Sun Yat-sen University in mainland China 擔任了差不多20年教師
for almost two decades 看到整個社會的變化
I've witnessed a lot of changes in Chinese society 基本上我覺得是越來越開放
Generally, I feel it has become more open 這種越來越開放
This increasing openness 可能現在因為一些短暫的事會受到一些障礙
may face temporary obstacles due to recen
t events 但因為已經開放了
But it is very difficult to reverse 很難走回頭
such entrenched openness 我們一定要看新一代
So we must focus on the new generation 我在中山大學任教的本科生
Many of my undergraduate students in Sun Yat-sen University 現在有些都已四十歲
are now in their forties, 已經是獨當一面的人
They have already established themselves 在教育界 、 文化界裏
in cultural and education fields 他們當時受到整個社會比較開放的教育
They were educated in a more liberal era in China 其實現在都在潛移默化地影響着社會
and their experience are subtly shaping 其實現在都在潛移默化地影響着社會
the development of
Chinese society 所以我覺得有時要看中國或者內地的將來
So when we want to foresee the future of China, 不是看現時的 、 一時的政策
we shouldn't just focus on the short term 而是看已經潛藏在社會的那個力量是如何
We need to understand the positive latent forces 而是看已經潛藏在社會的那個力量是如何
We need to understand the positive latent forces 而是看已經潛藏在社會的那個力量是如何
We need to understand the positive latent forces 而是看已經潛藏在社會的那個力量是如何
within the Chinese society 我自己仍是較為樂觀
Personally, I remain relatively optimistic 從太平戲院的例子
From the example of the Tai Ping Theatre, 我們看到香港
跟華南地區
we can see that Hong Kong and the South China region 實際在文化上 、 歷史上存在千絲萬縷的聯繫
actually have intricate connections culturally and historically 客觀地承認這個事實
In order to understand Hong Kong's history 以香港本位以外更大的格局
We must be objective 去了解我們的過去
and acknowledge the intimacy between the two places 其實對認識香港歷史非常重要
and should also see our past in a grander context 其實對認識香港歷史非常重要
beyond the confines of Hong Kong
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