I'm your host, Grace Weinstein. On this week's episode,
we are talking about what I believe to be an unspoken epidemic lingering among us. Legalized gambling on players and games has taken over sports media. It's on the courts. It's on your little brother's phone. It's on your favorite podcast everywhere. And Congress is finally starting
to take notice as millions of Americans and some of sport's biggest
stars are getting tied up in debt, addiction and regret. Cheery right? Okay, before I introd
uce this week's
guest who's going to help us unpack all of that
I went on a little adventure myself. I figured
how could I speak of what I don't know. So I took $100. And what's left of my dignity
went straight to the App Store and placed my very first sports bet. Here's how that went. I just downloaded FanDuel. I loaded in a copious amount
of personal information, agreed to the kind of toothless
terms and conditions, and I'm about to throw 100 bucks over here
with Apple Pay. Let's see how this
goes. Okay, my payment was rejected. So this is off to a really good start. Says “spend wisely.”
That's the first little kind of check on your pulse
that they've given me so far. Now we're at the homepage and
this homepage is a little overwhelming. One of the first things
that I'm seeing on the top of this is it says bet $5, get $200. That's obviously
a huge incentive for someone like me who's absolutely not interested
in betting at all. I can't see myself using it. But let's see. Look at all of
these betting options. This is fucking nuts. First to score 20 plus points. So I'm going to scroll down to the March
Madness odds. I'm looking at LSU versus Iowa. It says the spread is plus 8.5 -120 -8.5, -110. I would be lying to you
if I said I knew what that means. The reason that I wanted to do this,
and the reason I'm fixated on this, is we're living in a time of such loneliness and such crisis that it's no question
why people turn to things like gambling that give them instant gratificati
on,
especially if it's just up at your fingertips 24 hours a day with seemingly no limitations. Because not a lot of government
control has come into this. I'm going to bet on a buzzer beater, okay? I'm going to bet on a buzzer beater. Two plus points to be scored in the final
three seconds of the first half, plus 300. $10 wins, $30. I'm going to wager 20 bucks to win 54. Is this me
getting the dopamine hits in real time? Is this what we're talking about? Should I bet on my Boston Celtics? I fee
l like the number one rule of this
is that I shouldn't bet on the team, that I actually have
an emotional stake in, but fuck it, let's do it. Overall, this is obviously an extremely user friendly experience. I can't say I'm really getting the point of it, but maybe that'll be different
if any of my bets hit. So stay tuned to the end of the episode
to see how that all turned out. We've got Madeline Hill here with us,
and she is the writer and creator of Impersonal Foul,
my favorite Substack newsl
etter on all things
sports and honestly, reality TV drama. To number one thing,
I want to set the scene with today and I'm going to read this to you, is this was a recap of the last week
in sports. This was a tweet I saw. The NBA integrates live betting odds into its broadcast. Shohei
Ohtani accuses interpreter of stealing, betting $4.5 million on sports. The Cavaliers coach, J.B. Bickerstaff, says his family
has been threatened by sports bettors. Tyrese
Haliburton says he feels like a prop. He'
s an NBA player. Another NBA player is being investigated
by the NBA for irregularities on prop bets,
and that's all just in one week's time. Kind of a lot to take in,
but it feels like we might be used to it because we are running in the reality
TV world of it all. So we are being well fed by the sports
drama this week. You wrote an amazing newsletter on the Shohei Ohtani ordeal. I think is like the word
that I would use to describe it, where do you stand on whether he's involved in the gamblin
g or not? And tell me a little bit
about your feelings on the whole thing. Yeah. I mean, first of all,
thank you for having me. So the whole Ohtani scandal began when in a really series of chaotic and unfortunate events, his team
let his interpreter be interviewed by ESPN, basically like admitting to basically gambling ohtani's money upwards of $4.5
million, allegedly, on all of these series of bets in different sports, not in baseball. but the story has quickly unfolded where his team has,
like
, recanted his statement. They, allege that they Ohtani had nothing to do with it
and that in fact, he wasn't involved at all and had no idea. But my personal feelings on the matter. Listen, conspiracy
theories are going to say what they're going to say,
but how I feel about it is that how could you not know that $4.5 million
were being taken out of your account? I don't have $4.5 million
in my checking account or many multiple accounts that I imagine
Ohtani has -- Certainly same -- but I don't
understand how this
how does this man, like, not know where $4.5 million went from
his interpreter like that? It just the math is not mathing. The math is not mathing, and the way that they've played at
all, has been so weird. Like he was supposed
to give this press conference. They called it the other day, and it was no cameras allowed, basically like four press people there. The weirdest backdrop,
uncomfortable vibes. And there was nothing,
no questions were allowed to be asked. So it's like i
t's a very much
what are they hiding thing? I'm like, if you're missing
$5 million in your bank account, so maybe it's a sign off on a wire transfer who's like on the account, right? You can't be like, I don't know. Right? Well, and like, everything I know,
I mean, shouldn't it be Ohtani or like, his business manager? So then I'm like, okay,
what's his business manager on vacation this whole time? And was not getting alerts from Chase Bank
saying, hey, money's being taken out of your account
in
increments of upwards of potentially $500,000. Like, it's not like it's $10 at Starbucks. This is like a large chunk of money. And then on top of that, I'm like,
is Ohtani not checking his bank account? Like, I mean, listen, you don't have to check it every day,
but like every week, every two. When you pay your bill
at the end of the month, like maybe that. Exactly. Exactly. Like, is he not paying his credit card
bill in full, as you should. Like what? What's going on here? So I don't know. I th
ink what really strikes me
is that this is a man who just signed a ten year contract with the Dodgers for $700 million. It's a record breaking contract, and this man is out here
whittling away with his money. And apparently his interpreter
has access to his bank account to maybe or maybe not to make these, like, allegedly illegal bets to this bookie. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. But I will say, I don't know
if this came up at all in your research, but when Ohtani signed with the Dodgers
, he announced the contract
with an Instagram post. That is a blurry Los Angeles Dodgers logo. I saw this from you. Actually. It was the way that I figured this out
was from your newsletter, and I pulled it up and was like--
I’m really covering the hard topics. Absolutely. But these are like key indicators
that make sports fans kind of fall down this psychological spiral of like, what's going on with my favorite player. What are they not telling us? What what are they hiding? And sports fans are
all so conspiratorial. Like, I just think we're all prone
to being like, oh my God, he he only touched the bat with his left foot
this time instead of his right foot. Does that mean he's going to the Yankees? Like sports fans are going to do that
and have been doing it forever. But when when the involvement becomes financial and you're
losing out on millions of dollars, you'd think that that would raise
the first red flag at the same time in the other direction, you have Jontay Porter who's try
ing to break the money in, allegedly. what happened
here is one of the Toronto Raptors players is being investigated
for some betting irregularities. that popped up around bets on himself. So people were taking what's called
the under meaning, like, okay, he'll make less than fewer than four three pointers in this game. It's a pretty safe under. And then he would kind of put up
those scores and mysteriously
take himself out of the game. I believe, one of the reasons was because his eye was bothe
ring him
that he had been poked in in another game prior. so the pension for drama remains high among NBA players,
as it always has. But I’m like so, so curious how a player
potentially betting on himself. how do you ever expect to get away with that? Like, is
that is just inconceivably stupid to me. It's crazy. I mean, truly, like, as I said
in my newsletter, there are times where you should not be betting on yourself,
and this is one of those instances. He should not be out here
betting on him
self when he's not good. It's not like LeBron James trying to get away
with some sort of betting scheme, which he wouldn't
because he's LeBron James. This player like is not good at all. He's on what's called a two way contract,
which if you're not familiar, it's essentially
like the Kirkland Signature. If you're a Costco brand contract,
it's like being I don't know, like, a substitute teacher. Like, it's just it's not
you're not the real teacher, you know, you're not maybe accredited
like you k
ind of are, but not fully. And so he's already not good. So him having the highest, like betting odds and winning amount of the night across
any NBA game is going to raise a lot of red flags. It's like this man is not
betting on himself even in a smart way. It's like he plays bets or allegedly
allegedly place bets. Someone he did
or someone he maybe was associated with, upwards of $20,000. It's not like these are bets of $10, $20. I mean, going back to the Ohtani thing,
it's like this large sums
of money. Did this man think he was going
to get away with this? But again, these men keep doing
what men do, which is do dumb things and think
they're going to get away with it. I also saw that he had allegedly
some Twitter account where he would like, engage with betting and stock trade content. Right. Like if you're going to do this,
have a finsta like have a hidden account where you're not like posting
photos of people that look like yourself on the account, like,
what are we doing here? Ph
one up Kevin Durant,
ask him about his burner strategy and get that shit on lock. I think that's so key. Exactly like the part that I'm like, genuinely
wondering about is like, it seems like there's kind of two directions
with athletes that this can go in. You've got like Tyrese Haliburton,
who's a player on the Indiana Pacers, saying that he feels like a prop
because people are in the stands screaming at him
to just make one more threes so they could hit their parlay
and cash out. Or are you ki
nd of have,
I think, a subjective other athletes who are quietly getting
a piece of the pie as well. There was like I think in 2023, 12 NFL, NFL players were suspended for betting related activities that were technically against the NFL
rules. Like, I sympathize with the with the players
who feel like shit as a result of this, but worry about the
the guys on the other side who are like, let me just actually get
get pull up in the mix too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's really complicated
in th
e fact that, like, all of the major leagues now, it's not just the NBA, it's the NFL. MLB like this is a problem across
multiple professional sporting leagues because the reality is, is that sports
gambling makes a lot of money. And these leagues need money. And it's like, I don't know the numbers,
but I can't imagine that sports betting is going away
anytime soon. Like as you mentioned previously, with the the inclusion of in-game
betting with NBA games, like they're only doubling
down on gambl
ing and it's just the reality of the situation
that I think these leagues need sports gambling as much as sports
gambling needs these leagues. Right. You know, and I think, honestly, the drama
that happens with players like Jontay Porter and Shohei
Ohtani only fuels add fuel to the fire. And it's not really going
to hurt their PR, to be honest. I mean, I think it maybe might bring up
more conversations about like that, how to be a healthy gambler, like
they might be trying to, like, incorporate
more educational content into that, which is also its own dystopian nightmare. But I don't feel like it's going away
anytime soon. Like only getting more and more sports gambling content in the games themselves. Totally. It was when I was watching
the Celtics game on Saturday. It was Celtics, Pelicans and on the court, the two advertising bubbles
that would appear were one was FanDuel and the other was, visit Abu Dhabi. So I was like, okay, if you're in the mix on the marketing budget with the w
ith the Middle Eastern nations like the Qatari Grand Prix and the insane influencer trip to Saudi Arabia back in
whatever year that was like,
that's where we're at for sure. And the the interest percent. The interesting thing
too, is like starting to look at slow movements towards the government getting involved,
which I think it feels a little bit like it does with AI, with social media,
which like the government's, playing catch up with something
that is clearly already well out of hand. and t
here's actually proposed legislation in the House
right now called, I think, the safe bet Act that would restrict, like AI from targeting people, with specific bets that they would like
because of their previous activity. It would, limit people to, you know, putting only making five deposits per day for 24 hours, which in like five deposits,
that already feels like so much, it would establish, like a surgeon
general's report to see how it's affecting society, which they obviously do with things
like social media already. it feels like when we've got to that
point, like it's already too far gone. But if these leagues
are completely enmeshed in this industry to the point where all of their
like where their revenue is dependent upon a lasting relationship with them,
it seems like it's only going to get deeper from there, and players are only going to spiral
from there. Right? 100%. I mean, I feel like we're not that far off
from like DraftKings sponsoring like a document, like a documenta
ry series
about a famous athlete. And you're like, yeah, what's
where's the ethical line here? I feel like we're toeing the line
like, well, they're they're going to get, I feel like into the content space
and like, we're going to be seeing like a bunch of sponsored content
from DraftKings for athletes. Like, I feel like that's going
to be allowed, like, and it's just like these leagues are so dependent
on the money in the same way. To your point about like the Abu Dhabi
like that influence the
Middle Eastern influence and buying
all the Premier League teams too. I mean, it's it feels kind of similar. and it's like it's just going to continue
because that's where the money is. And like, these leagues are very reliant on the money and where they can get it. And right now
it's sports gambling in the United States. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about the way
that it's like playing into and I was trying to listen to a podcast
about this today, and it was like, this is a DraftKings presente
d podcast. We are going to talk about the problems
with sports betting. And I'm like, okay, that's
you know, there's a certain irony there. But also can will
we then be able to trust that the media
that we're getting our information from can can speak about this topic in without their fingers on the scale
because they know that that's at the end of the day, who's pretty much
writing their their paychecks. Yeah. And a lot of these news outlets
now have like a gamble sports betting vertical to cov
er news about sports
betting that's happening in sports as if you're covering breaking news
about player trades. Right. a question that I have,
and this is like a topic that I bring up a lot on this show because I just find that it seems relevant
to pretty much everything. And I would be remiss
if I didn't bring, like, a giant Bravo allegory into this
right now. So I will. I really wonder
if this is like an effort in or if we should look at this
as personal responsibility, like gambling and what
it does
and how it can ruin your life as, a feature of personal responsibility. Or if we need to look at it in a sense of, like, collective security and, like,
what I compare it to is like when Leah McSweeney announced that she was going to sue Andy Cohen, because they were feeding her alcohol
and encouraging her to drink. And as a recovering alcoholic,
that was like, so such a horrible work environment
to be in. And then countless wind ups, of course, came in and was like, that's your personal
responsibility. Like you have
to take ownership of your actions. If you drank and you knew you shouldn't have been drinking,
that's nobody's fault but your own. I think that's like
a really interesting debate that can actually be applied to this situation
with sports gambling right now. Like if somebody does fall into the hole of becoming
addicted to sports gambling, do we as a society look at that as a failure and personal responsibility or is this something that we should ensure collective se
curity around by, you know, putting in place
like better restrictions on apps and things that you can do per day,
passing legislation, etc.? Yeah. I mean,
I think that's a really good question. I think my answer is it's
very complicated. I think it's
probably somewhere in the middle. I think there's some ownership
and personal responsibility that goes into choosing to bet
in the first place and continuing to do it,
if maybe even you're losing money. But also, these leagues are making it
very eas
y to get addicted when you're watching a game
and you're not asking to become a sports
better, it's in your face. It's not like you can really hide
it really anymore. It's in all the like
the bottom reel, like it's sponsored by DraftKings
or sponsored by FanDuel. It's on the courts
like you can't escape it. So I think at a certain point, your personal responsibility ends. And like the need for legislation
and restriction begins. Where can people find you? Hit a little self-promo on that beat. Ye
ah. You can read all of the sports
gossip nonsense. I sent out two newsletters
a week at impersonalfoul.com. You can follow me on social
at the Impersonal Foul and on Instagram for personal non impersonal foul content at mad_Hill. So it's pretty clear to me
that this is like a runaway train to a destination unknown. These sports books are going to keep
getting bigger and bigger. They're going to keep showing up
on the sports that we love to watch. And will it interfere
with the way that we engag
e with the game? I'm about to figure that out
when we go back to my bet. Okay, there's 40 seconds left. I put in a bet
that somebody would make a buzzer beater within the last three seconds
to go up by two, or make two plus points. fully
honest, right now, my heart is pounding. Okay, here we go. Nine seconds left. Johnson here within three. Let's see. I’m like oh my God, do I get it? Let me put in more money. No. Absolutely not. Here we are at the end of the night. I'm about to cash out. I'm lea
ving the night
with $84 out of my 100. I feel like I escaped pretty unscathed. Maybe some of my luck was due
to wearing this Charles Barkley shirt. Guarantee that.
I submitted four bets total. And yeah, Scout's honor,
I literally did say that I wouldn't re-up in between the two games
I watched. And then what do you know, she did. Winning
my first bet was absolutely exhilarating. I cannot lie about that. But let me tell you, sitting here
with my heart pounding, that anticipatory anxiety leading u
p to it
hard pass. I already have enough of that anxiety in my day to day life, and I don't need to double down on that especially when I'm
watching a basketball game. You know, I really have to give these apps
credit, though, in a frightened way, because they certainly know
how to reel you in. They offered me a $200 credit
in the middle of my betting experience, because I won the first one and I took it,
I placed another bet, even though I swore up and down
that I wasn't going to be that girl.
But that system feels really predatory
to me. The vouchers, the credits,
the bonuses and all of those escalate once you become a bigger, better
in their system. The VIPs get huge perks. And that really scares me
because basically any kid on the block who has a vague proficiency in Roblox could open their parents
iPad, place a bunch of bats, and run up the credit card bill
like nobody's business. How can we just kind of stop the bleeding? And to me, that starts with accessibility. It needs to be
a little bit harder
to get in the game, and then there needs to be more available
apparent guardrails. Once you are in the game
and it's taking over your life, I understand that you should and could
and maybe would even put limits on your deposits
for the day when you're sports betting, but I assume that operates kind of like how my alarm goes off in the morning, which is more of a light suggestion
than a real mandate. So after this experience, it's really easy
for me to see how sports betting a
pps take advantage of those lonely people
who are looking for a little hit of that dopamine. So I'm going to go cash out
and delete this godforsaken app once and for all. So I can't say I'm going to become
an elite bettor overnight, but what I can say is
we'll be here in two weeks, so make sure you like and subscribe
to WTF America so you don't miss a beat.
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