Indian Muslims And Rising Hindu Nationalism | Dr. Christophe Jaffrelot and Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy

[Music] good evening and welcome to the black hole  uh today we are going to discuss the Dynamics of Indian Muslims experiences uh amidst the  backdrop of rising Hindu nationalism we are very grateful to and we are very honored  to have uh Dr Kristoff jeffl with us uh he's the professor of Indian politics and sociology at  the Kings India Institute London also we grateful to Dr prz hudai Who will moderate today's  discussion uh before we start the session uh it is requested that please you turn

your cell  phones to silent mode also when you will like to uh say a few words when the Q&A session is opened  please raise your hand and talk only after having this microphone uh ladies and Gentlemen let's  welcome Dr kristo Jeff and P thank [Applause] you thank you ner for starting this off  uh I'm very happy to welcome all of you to the black hole and I see that there  is there are more people than there are seats so this is an indication that uh  Professor Kristoff jaffo is uh quite a celebr

ity here in Pakistan even though  his books uh seem not to be very widely available Kristoff spends part of his time in  Paris part in London in Paris he is a research fellow at uh C at uh what is called um uh  c r i what does that stand for Center for international research he's also president of  the French political science Association and I was wondering how to describe him should he be  described as a historian of South Asia or as a political scientist and he says he's more of  a political

scientist than a historian so he spends his time in Paris but he also spends his  time in London at King's College and uh he's all over the world right now he's here soon I suppose  you will be going to laor and possibly to India as well on this trip we very pleased to have him  and he's going to be speaking about the state of Muslims in India today we know that's not very  good he's going to give a lot of quantitative evidence because he's a political scientist and  he believes in numbers but I

'm going to leave that to the end and Kristoff I want to understand  a few things first just to set the general context we know that India has been moving away from  inclusivism towards exclusivism now this is done in a way that's very different from the other  countries in South Asia so for example Pakistan describes itself as an Islamic State when somebody  takes the oath for a government position he has to swear on the Quran the same thing is true for  the Maldives and of Bangladesh those are

Muslim states but uh if you look at Nepal or Bhutan or  Sri Lanka those formally call themselves Hindu States so in a sense they're also exclusivists but  what is the difference that what is the difference between the Indian form of EX exclusivism and the  exclusivism that the others formally um formally they exclusive what's the basic difference  between that well the basic difference of course has to do with history because India was  created as a secular State and the word secular the word s

ecularism was even um written in the  Constitution after an amendment in the mid 1970s uh so de Ure India is a secular country de facto  it's not anymore as secular as it used to be and that's the big difference there is no change in  the Constitution but there is some change in the practice of politics and one good example of that  and I will show you some figures by by the end is that for the first time in 2014 and again in 2019  the the party that won the elections the BJP the ruling party ha

d no muslim among its members of  parliament and that is because it had also very few candidates coming from the Muslim minority and  de facto you see a reduction of the presence of minorities on the public scene the U there is this  secular tradition that remains enshrine in the text of the Constitution this is the difference uh  this this difference of course is something we see also um at the level of the government we we used  to have minorities represented in the government and uh this is h

ardly the case today now this  disconnect between the practice and and the later if you want uh is also somewhat reducing because  there are some changes in the laws there is there are some changes in the Constitution itself in  2019 uh there was this citizenship Amendment act that Revisited one of the key pillars of  the Indian constitution citizenship how do you become an Indian citizen um this amendment made  it impossible for Muslim refugees from Pakistan Afghanistan and Bangladesh to become

Indian it's  only the non-muslim refugees from these three countries who can become Indian for the first  time you saw religion becoming a Criterion for access to citizenship in India and there are  other laws that you can mention at the state level interesting laws difficult to understand  sometimes very long and cir convoluted but one makes interreligious marriages very difficult UT  Pradesh M Pradesh one makes conversion to another religion very difficult and one in Gujarat  especially makes

it very difficult to sell your house to someone of a different religion you  need the permission of the district magistrate for doing that now so legal Transformations are also  making the uh Republic of India or less inclusive so it's it's more de facto than the UR but also  in the laws also in the country you see some changes gradually taking place at the local level  state level but also National level I was looking at the bjp's manifesto just a little while ago  and it talks about the Panch

a nishas which means five major commitments and they all seem rather  innocuous there's democracy secularism National oh nationalism comes first then democracy secularism  um I I don't remember the rest but five of them and it it doesn't seem to be about kicking out  Muslims and yet de facto that is what is happening and that is what you will convince us of uh when  you give your facts and figures but on the face of it this is very different from the way that we in  Pakistan made ourselves exclu

sivists and the fact is that um well whatever you're going to show us  look uh there are still a lot of Muslims living inside India they're not leaving and they don't  want to leave or maybe they don't have an option but in Pakistan most of our non-muslims have been  forced out of the country this might change I mean in Indian Muslims might want to leave but so far  they seem to feel more secure than non-muslims here in Pakistan yes it depends in which part of  the country because India is a hug

e country with many variations uh there is hardly any problem in  the South and it's very interesting to see that all the southern states all the peninsula Tamil  NAD Kerala kataka Telangana Andra all these states are non BP now there is not even one Southern  State of India ruled by the B JP Kaka was the last one and Congress won the elections earlier  this year in this part of the country you're gravan first you're a Tamil speaking Muslim first  well you're a Tamil speaker first that that make

s a big difference you look at Northern India and  you see a different situation uh except in Parts uh like West Bengal orisa where the is not so  different as it was before but um interestingly precisely you see migrations of Muslims going in  these states where they feel safer they will not go easily elsewhere anyway it's not so easy except  for the rich who can afford to go to Dubai or even to New Zealand when you have the means to pay for  the Visa the permit uh but but you see some some tra

nsformation within the borders of India itself  which is quite interesting like a kind of inner partian now I want some clarification for my own  self and I'm sure others here will want that too we've heard again and again that India wishes  to become a Hindu rashtra a Hindu state H now we've heard of the of there being such a thing  as an Islamic State now whether that actually exists or not but at least we can say something  about it an Islamic State would presumably be one where the where the

law is based on the Sharia or  weakening that down that no law can exist which is in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith in terms  of the Hindu rashtra what is it that would define its outlines would it be let's say Conformity  with the laws of Manu Manti mhm um what is it that could make a Hindu state after all we we  did see Nepal being a Hindu State until I think 2008 when I decided not to be a Hindu state but  bhan is yeah so what is a Hindu State I I don't really understand well to to ge

t this and it's  it's rather sophisticated indeed you have to go back to the Charter of indva that was written by  Savar in 1923 exactly 100 years ago and this is by the way a very important point to make this  is a 100 years old movement where do you find a movement that is 100 years old RSS was created in  1925 they'll celebrate their 100 100 anniversary in two years there are very few organizations  in the world that have this kind of longterm perspective that's a very point to keep it a very

  important point to keep in mind now what is there in indva indva who is Hindu is the book that  saak wrote in 23 and where he is for the first time explaining what should be India what should  be this nation what this nation should be and here you see that is reacting to Matt mandi's views you  know Matt Mandi has taken over power in Congress in 1920 incidentally in the Napo Congress nakur  being the of course stronghold for RSS also mat magandi explains India is made of different govern  unit

ies on a PA equal to each other you know it's a collection of communities Muslims Hindus parses  Christians sik people origonally organized and India has to be Multicultural and for mat magandi  it meant that he had to take the lead in the kilat movement you know he was the kilat movement leader  at the same time that's the gundian definition and in reaction to this gandan definition Savar  explains that Hindus are the sons of the soil they are the original inhabitants of this territory  and he

says territory matters a lot because this is a secred land punabi yeah matomi is punabi  equation my motherland is a secred land Hindus are the sons of the soil the original inhabitants  of this territory that is sacred that is theirs and incidentally the the parallel with Zionism  is very striking also because for Savar Hindus are not made of Believers of a religion they are  a people and he says in the vein of Hindus run the blood of Vic fathers and this is very interesting  word blood because

he keeps saying that Hindus are race a race not Believers but people sharing  the same blood so when you have this idea of an original people inhabiting a sacred land  what is the space you leave for the others and this is the big question indu rash is primarily a  Hindu nation that is not supposed to accommodate multiculturalism the Muslims the Christians  are invited by sarar to pay allegiance to Hindu symbols of identity you may be a Muslim  in the private sphere you may be a chistian in the

private sphere but you have to pay Allegiance  in the public sphere to the majoritarian identity that is the Hindu identity this is the indu rash  and if I remember right sarar admired Hitler for the final solution and suggested that U maybe  that's the best way to deal with uh the Invaders the Invaders being both Muslims and Christians  now um the idea of bhatar the idea that the name of India should be changed to B or batsh I don't  know which is the more suitable bat is enough yeah okay um t

o what extent do you think this is this  idea has caught on and what are the implications for Muslims in India it's a very old idea very  old idea because these two visions of the nation now the gundian nation the nerian nation and the  indu nist nation are in petition for 100 years so the first sentence of the Indian constitution  says India comma that is Barat comma shall be a union of states in the first sentence you have  both names already there because in the consent assembly debates you h

ave had this tension  permanent tension between those who wanted something more secular and some and and those  who wanted something more Hu the debate on the language what language for India in which language  should we write the Constitution itself constantly there was there was ATT tension English Indie and  in at the end Indie is the national language and India and and and English is the official language  so you can retain both of them but just to say that this tension was old and it was th

ere already  even before when you had the first uh I would say pre indu nationalist like tilak tilak was also  asking for Barat instead of India and so on how far is this feasible today to change the name  of a country like that one it it it may it it is more I think for the Electoral conception for  the coming electoral campaign than for actually a reform that would be very difficult you know  you need 2/3 of at least 2/3 of parliament for making any constitutional reform that's by the  way als

o why it is de facto more than de because in the rajasa in the upper house bgp is struggling  it can deal with some State parties and get some majority on some issues that is a big issue and  to make this reform will be a big one so it's basically posturing and you don't think that the  name of India is going to change I think you're probably right but coming back to what sarar said  that the Hindus form a race a race is defined by genes uh you can look at the difference of  the genes of an Afri

can with an Eskimo and say that this is that that is that people have  actually taken jeans from North India and other parts of India they sent them to the laboratory  for testing and asked Can you on the basis of Laboratory Testing tell the difference between a  Hindu and a Muslim and the answer is no because of conversions what if today I convert uh to some  other religion my genes remain the same so it is absurd to say that the hindu's former race why  don't the intelligent people in India I'

m sure they're very intelligent I mean after all they've  gone to the Moon what's the problem in recognizing the stupidity you know this is exactly the problem  we have with ideologues not only in India but all over the world they believe in their own lies  U and and and it's it's useful to to propagate Lies when you have an identity Politics on your  agenda you mentioned these the jeans business there was another very interesting one um indu  ideologues do not believe in what we call Aryan inva

sions you know we all know that sou Asia has  been populated by people coming from outside but when you claim that you are the sons of the soil  you can't recognize that there have been some influx inflow of people so in the textbooks and  and textbook all over the world in this country also are very revealing of the official ideology  you want to propagate so in these textbooks now you do not see any mention to Arian invasions  for instance yeah you invent a reality that has nothing to do with

science so then India and  Pakistan are really moving closer together because they reject science by rejecting Darwinism now  Darwinism is being taken out of their textbooks just like Darwinism is rejected here in Pakistan  now earlier this was not so in India it has always been this way in Pakistan more so after General  zul hak than then earlier so the similarities are getting very very close to each other yeah well  on the Indian side it's a work in progress I'm convinced that the point of no

return has not been  reached because it takes time and I repeat there are so many Regional variations you know you will  not see the same kind of dominant discourse in Chennai and in D or hagra that's a very important  point to make there is a real diversity and uh in many states it's education being a state subject  you have different textbooks telling different stories but yes the trend is what you say the  trend is going in this direction and in less than 10 years less than 10 years we've se

en already  a significant transformation of the country yeah good so now I don't want to take time away from  you from presenting your research um which will shed light on the state of Muslims I so in India  uh you have been researching this issue for long in India and of course your book The Rise of  Modi is uh precisely well it this is one of the things that goes into it yes but just one last  question yeah I I still don't understand what a constitution for a Hindu rashtra is and how is  it di

fferent from the earlier uh secular India of nahu one of the things I'm going to show you  is that there is a certain continuity between the two so far as Muslims are concerned no Muslims in  India are more marginalized than before but they were before already at the moment margin so we are  still facing this disconnect between what is there on the paper what is supposed to be the country  about equality no discrimination and what we observe in practice it is true for minorities it  is true for

deits and ex and touchables you have this constant disconnect between what is supposed  to be implemented and what is effectively done and that's the job of the social scientist precisely  to explore this disconnect and to explain this so the the data I'm going to show are the first  step in a work that remains to be done how do we explain that attitudes the way you discriminate  without saying that you are discriminating and why what is at the back of the mind so  the resilience of prejudice th

e resilience of hierarchies the the Prejudice is so deeply  rooted in so many ways it go it goes in the same direction so far as gender is concerned and  I will not mention the gender issue there because it would take us too far but we have only 6% of  women as member of retive assemblies in India 6% it's minuscule a minuscule minority of women in  the political scene EX in in spite of the equality that is supposed to Prevail again and in spite  of positive discrimination intentions or the idea

that there should be a woman quara there is none  for the moment there may be one one day we'll see how it will work but in a society like that one by  the way if you do not have positive discrimination if you do not have a quar things are not moving  very very fast really okay now uh I won't stop you once you show your data then we can sure resume  our disc as after which we'll open this up to the audience with pleasure shall we bring that down  yeah so what I'm going to present um is in fact u

h the result of a collective Andor we are working  and I think this is on the first slide we are working um we are working with um many colleagues  based in Princeton Colombia of course chpo my own institution and in India ashuka University where  the uh trid Center for political data was uh part of this coalition so we are working 60 people  or so on many different facets of the Muslim conditions in India and I'm not going to cover  them all I'm prepared to uh of course respond to questions reg

arding things I'm not going to  cover including violence including GTO isation including the woman issue including cashmir I'm  going to to focus only on three dimensions because they are already sufficiently uh demanding one  is where do Muslims stand in the institutions how are they represented in key institutions  not them all not all I will not mention the Judiciary for instance but it's a very important  part of the of the story and I can return to that if you want then in social economic t

erms where  do Muslims stand in terms of Revenue in terms of occupation in terms of well standard of living and  then the education question because this is a very important Dimension uh where do Muslims stand  so far as education is concerned well the trend is almost the same everywhere but if you look at  institutions you see a transformation so far as assemblies elected institutions are concerned in  the past we've done this work we've seen an under representation of Muslims among the is Indi

an  administrative service Upper Island of the um civil um Services uh is officers have always been  much less in terms of percentage than Muslims in the Indian Society you know 1951 the first census  Muslims are 10% of the Indian Society they are uh never they have never been more than 7% and that  was very briefly a kind of spike in 1994 today they are 14.5% of the Indian Society if you go  by the 2011 census and they are roughly 4% of the a it's not new it's not improving if you turn to  the

IPS officers and and here you have by the way the trend of the in Muslim population  I repeat from 10% to 14.5% roughly so you see every 10 years it it grows what  does not grow is this the percentage of Muslims among police officers in India  right from the 50s this this is 51 till 2016 has never been in more than 4% Ry  and if you remove Kashmir because of course jamu and Kashmir has more Muslim  policemen so if you remove Kashmir oh sorry you are at something like 3% now this  is very importa

nt if you don't have Muslim policemen you don't have anybody to speak to  in the Tana in the police station and one of the things I'm not going to show you now but  that I'm prepared to also speak about we have a special team looking at how Muslims relate to  the police and the Judiciary and vice versa and one of the research they've done shows the over  representation of Muslims Behind Bars we have roughly 1 14 of the Muslim of the inmates who  are Muslim Behind Bars you know the kind of of rep

resentation you find in many other places but  this is partly due to this sociology of of the Indian police now what has changed the most is  this if you want the two previous slides showed a kind of Flat Line this shows a decline and  the decline is is particularly uh significant if you look at the number of Muslim members of  parliament in the L Saba in 1980 1980 inandi is back and she shows her secularism briefly in the  early 80s by nominating more Muslim as candidates to the um assembly so

you have 9% of the members  of parli who are Muslims when when Muslims are 11% of society it's almost proportionate now  and the trend is almost linear you have less than 5% of members of parliament who are Muslim  loab lower house directly elected by the people when Muslims are 14.5% so the Gap is very  significant um it's widening there is one more graph that is showing this kind of thing  and and I'm prepared to return to it in the discussion if you want it is the percentage of  people who kn

ow uru and the of people who are Muslims today in utar Pradesh only half of the  Muslims know Udu and if they don't speak Udu is because Udu is not taught U has been recognized  as an official language inut Pradesh in 1989 only and the Udu press is printed in Hindi now  if you want well in devanagari because people can't read so this this idea of of of Divergence  of of lines of Trends is very important we are not looking at static figures the percentage  of Muslims in is increasing the percenta

ge of Muslim the percentage of Muslim knowing U is  decreasing and the Gap therefore is widening okay uh no sorry the percentage of Muslim  candidates is also declining and that's very important when you do not get tickets for  a winable constituency why should you try to contest so you have fewer and fewer um  Muslim candidates at the time of Elections uh I will not impose on you this but I will  show you that in most of the states we see a decline of the percentage of Muslims  among the member

members of assemblies as I said it's a federation India where States  matter a lot no political life is at the state level well goodat 10% of the population is  Muslim it has picked in the mid 70s 6% now you have [Music] 1.5% of the MLA ml who are  Muslim couple of Muslims Gat as as excluded Muslims from the public life Ahmedabad as  one MLA Goodra sometimes Baroda sometimes that's it um it's true utar Pradesh is it's very  dramatic utar Pradesh had 177% of its mlas being Muslim under samadi pa

rty against under akilov  2017 y takes over look at this drop from 177 to 4% there are something like 20% of Muslims in  utar Pradesh so the gap between the 20% they are and the four person they have to represent  them is really dramatic and the last elections have have shown the same same results uh rajastan  it depends who wins when Congress wins Muslim percentage grows when bgp wins it declines and  and we'll see what happens next month we'll see but it's it's an amazing kind of alternation i

n  power um Maharashtra has never been very big you know martra it's an amazing place you know  Bombay 20% Muslims Bombay Muslims have such a strong presence no political representative  zero zero Muslim in the L saaba in Maharashtra and at in the assembly 3% 4% never more than that  they're not represented Kaka depends again when Congress is back the the graph grows again  but under represented still um West Bengal is an interesting case West Bengal is the only  state in India where the present

ent of Muslims increases in the assembly because of TMC because  of mtab energy 35% of Muslims in m in West Bal is a huge percentage they are not 35% but they  are 20% and that's because MTA has invested in the Muslim minority so you see the variations the  states are not so easy to to compare M Pradesh of course almost zero uh because well they are so few  they are 5% now let's shift to another um entry point social economic condition here you have  different sources by the way we are strugglin

g with statistical sources in India it's more and  more difficult the 2021 census has not taken place for the first time since 1881 between 1881 and  2011 every 10 years there was a census and not a I would say amateurish kind of sensus it was a  very professional sensus and and they knocked at each and every door you are 2.5 million people  knowing at the door of 1.4 billion people 2021 no census it will take place after the elections  data is something very difficult to get these days National

sample survey does not measure poverty  anymore we don't know we can't can't say what is the percentage of people living below poverty  line in India today the 20 17 18 survey of NSS has been considered as unreliable because the  Figures were very bad for the first time since the 70s the percentage of people living below  line has increased according to this data so we are struggling but still we have a very good  source that is the Indian human development survey ahds the indiaan dept and inve

stment  survey and the periodic labor force surveys which are also very very rich what do they say  they show that they show that Muslims are lagging Bey Hindus and the Gap is widening between  2002 and 2019 the Gap has been multiplied by three roughly in terms of per capita wealth  uh that's something you can partly explain by this figure in terms of occupation Muslims  are under represented in the public sector which is so important in India what do you want  to do government job you know gove

rnment job is what everybody wants you know that's where  you have social security that's where you have pensions that's where you have well safety  and they are very badly over under represented there they are not in the private sector it's  very interesting we are we we speak about the the formal sector the the the salariat the  the regular economy that's really bad and it explains why when you are Muslims usually  you are your own well you're on your own you you are your own account worker is

nothing  but well the mechanics on the side of the road um this is something you see here  again self-employed 42% which is really a lot uh compared to um to the um Indus and  uh and interestingly cast does not make any difference this is a very important point I'll  return to that one you have of course cast within Muslims and you have mostly this difference  between Muslim obeses we call them bandas mostly and well they aavs and and and and Arles are not  recognized as a category so officiall

y you don't have delit Muslims of course in practice you have  Del Muslims but officially they're not recognized so in the statistic you have only Muslim obeses  basas low cast Muslims and ashs asfs are and we assume that they are almost 50/50 they make no  it makes no difference compared to the Indus in terms of occupation in terms of wealth which  is an interesting and counterintuitive uh thing uh that's a bit complicated but let me let me  give you some examples of what I want to show here wh

at we can do because of the Indian human  development survey is to compare the access to the salariat the jobs of dalits hu dalits  and Muslims and what we could see here is that the percentage of dalits sorry having a job  in the salariat is larger than the percentage of Muslims having a job for the first time in the  21st century the new delites are the Muslims because delites have prevailed in many states all  the states in blue all the states in blue largely because of positive discriminatio

n you know you  have this fabulous I would say Innovation that Dr edar introduced in the Indian constitution  giving a quot of 15% to delit in education public sector activities and elected assemblies  so you have 15% of the jobs in the public sector that go which go to delit and they have gradually  occupied important positions you have now a delit Bourgeois you have a delit middle class when  on the contrary Muslims for whom there is no positive discrimination except in the South and  only in

few states with small percentages they have followed the other trajectory so you have  you've you've had this historic transformation of delit prevailing over Muslims in socioeconomic  terms it's also true in terms of Revenue you know the income gap between Muslims and dalits has  made very significant transformation so you see that everywhere where you have something  in red you have delit earning more than Muslims and there is a change you know there is  a significant change between that's why

we need to to update this data uh in all the states  in blue delit are earning more than Muslims in the North in the West in the East and the  South so in 10 years the transformation has been absolutely significant yeah if you look for  that's the last slide on this kind of summary of the point you see the per capital wealth you see  how clearly cast makes a difference on the indu side indu upper cast earn twice what the indu  average earned and probably three times uh What U delit earn now you

look at Muslims all Muslims  earn something like onethird of ocast Hindus and you see no difference almost between upper  cast Muslims and lower cast Muslims which is really very significant last education that's  very important also where do Muslims stand in education same sources and uh similar results  again the Gap is is is widening you look at the percentage of graduates you have 1.2% of Muslims  who graduated in 92 93 94 less than half of the percentage of Hindus but in the case of Hindus

  we've reached this kind of almost double digit figure when the case of Muslims we are still  below 5% which is very little well it's very little in general but the Gap is widening  so the percentage of Youth attending higher education we have almost 34% for the Hindus and  the Gap remains increases with less than 20% on the Muslim side what we see when we disaggregate  that in geographical terms is very interesting we see that this is not kasas this is UT Pradesh  this is is Kerala this is uta

r Pradesh Kerala there is always an increase no muslim upper  cast have increased from 2.8 to 3.7 to 4.2 this is terrifying utar Pradesh cast for the  first time in the history of India you see the percentage of Youth attending higher education  institutions declining the percentage of uppc Muslims are less numerous sorry the number of  uppc Muslims are less is less numerous now in utar Pradesh than it used to be 10 years  before from 14.1% to 12% and this is what we need to explain why don't yo

ung Muslims  go to school why are they dropping out and that's not something that statistics can tell  you statistics give you the larger picture and then you have to go and do field work so  we have teams of people doing field work and what you see there are two or three things  one to be a Muslim in the classroom is not so easy your classmates your teacher your textbooks  are giving an image of the Muslims which make you uncomfortable then you have  another problem that is mobility how far can

you travel safely so many  instances of uh assault intimidation so many stories people don't dare to read or do books in  the m don't dare to sayam alaykum on the phone when they called Mobility how far do you travel  you know which is a reflection of GTO isation you withdraw in your shell because you take a risk  when you go out and then more importantly why do you study for what the point if at the end  remember in terms of occupation you can't get anything but an informal kind of work so thi

s is  new this is completely new you know not to go for education is completely new everybody wants to go  and get a good education this is the key it used to be the necessary step for social Mobility if  we see this trend confirmed in the coming years we'll have a completely new transformation of  the of of the mind of the scene really um maybe private education will take over but for private  education this is by the way one more reason education is more and more expensive because it's  it's p

rivate you you can't you can't get any good education in the public anyway so that's that's  for education and uh and sorry sorry I'm going in the wrong direction and this is yeah the last  slide is this one the last slide show that again in ter of Education cast makes no difference which  is very cont inuitive upper cast Muslims and lower cast Muslims are exactly in the same situation  exactly in the same situation it makes no difference well what makes a difference  is the decline of scholarsh

ips you know there was a ma mad scholarship that has been  stopped there were so many scholarships that had been introduced by the maning government  the SAA committee report SAA committee report in 2005 said Muslims are lagging behind we need  we need to do something and the introduced some measures including scholarships these ones  have been discontinued um and uh we see the results you know Muslims get hardly  any support any scholarship when you see delit and AD Divas is getting support  be

cause it is positive discrimination so I will stop here but I'm prepared to engage  with other issues I've mentioned violence we can certainly return to the question of  riots uh I've mentioned uh uru we can also return to this question if you want uh I I I  give you this figure only 8% of U speakers in utar Pradesh when there are 18% of Muslims  the Gap is 10% points and we can also talk about uh the processes of vitalization and and  others I just close with um what remedes you know we are not

supposed only to to look at a  bad situation we are also supposed to suggest Solutions and the solutions that of course comes  to mind for this socioeconomic Dimension only for this is positive discrimination there is no  alternative at that point no at that level when when you have reached that level when  you are so low you need to be helped as a group as a group as Muslim forget about C Class  discrimination is affecting Muslims as a world and when you look at the South kataka Kerala  Telang

ana there are are reservations small percentages 4% 5% but still it helps a lot so in  a non-hindu rash we would certainly contemplate reservations as the solution but we'll have to  see whether this is feasible or not and I stop [Applause] here Kristoff what you've told us is very distressing  indeed uh we see discrimination having negative effects upon the Muslim Community in  India across the board what I find most distressing is actually what you said about  the police that there is increasi

ngly less representation of Muslims so that you cannot  go to the tana and be and feel safe of course this discrimination Works in very different  ways sometimes it is subtle sometimes it is very overt like Shabana ASI and her husband  couldn't find a place in Delhi Delhi is one of the most um enlightened places in India it's  so utterly Cosmopolitan but living in a Muslim neighborhood is so difficult for somebody like  her even there's so much that's heart-rending in what you've told us and yet

uh and look  uh there's much much more that can be said the name of aligar Muslim University was  going to be changed the Muslim was going to be struck out when somebody somebody said hey  what about Hindu Banaras University strike the Hindu out of that that would be wrong the the  newspaper the Hindu then it just the the would be left Etc so it's uh you know it doesn't make  sense really to have a modern state run on such narrow par parochial grounds but now I'm going  to take some issue with

you mhm all right it's okay um let's compare immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh  in the UK those who have made many pakistans for themselves in Birmingham in Bradford in  East London and let's see how they compare in terms of Education with uh Hindu immigrants and  perhaps uh compare how over time that difference has also widened and this being in a place  where you can't really seriously talk about discrimination against Muslims there because What  Muslim parents choose for their children

is quite different from what Hindu parents choose for  their children there is a lot of homeschooling there's a lot of emphasis upon wrote learning  much as what we have in Pakistan and let me talk of a personal experience with you I went to  molana Azad Udu University molana Abul Kalam aad Udu University in Hyderabad I gave a lecture over  there first it was to be on special relativity in uru I said fine but then they changed the topic  and said why is education necessary Neary for Muslims now

why do you even need to talk about  why education is necessary for Muslims it's it's a given and the quality of that University and I  compared it with the next University that I went to to give a lecture and that was a triple it  Indian Institute of Information Technology and there the difference was that of Z or as Heaven  and Earth so it's not just discrimination it's cultural attitudes too so one must disaggregate  that in a very complex situation I I feel a lot of pain seeing the statistics

but I'm not  willing to put all the blame onto the Modi government in this case well first of all it was  there before so it's not so new it's exaggerating it's more and more visible but it was there  before for sure secondly yes we have in our team a special group on social reform to find out  what is the community's attitude Vis A modernity it's mostly about the gender issue but it's also  about education and so on it's very difficult to say that it's the attitude of the community that  is at

stake but there is clearly a leadership problem you know there is clearly a conservative  leadership for the community that is a hindrance the clerics do not help for instance the dinim  madaris in some parts of North India are very counterproductive and this is why I mention ative  action so repeatedly because you need leaders you need Role Models you need modern role models  who can reform the community from inside and it's exactly what positive discrimination is about  positive discriminatio

n is not a mass program you have only you create an elite and what is missing  for the Indian Muslims today is an elite there is no leader there is no leader left I mean there  is no enlightened leader where are they you see so I agree there is this problem I'm I I I I  really attribute it to a leadership problem to an elite kind of problem not necessarily um  the culture you know the culture is malleable the culture is at least you can influence the  cultural attitudes if you have someone who c

an guide you somewhere and this is what is missing  badly missing so would you then uh subscribe to the notion that is the Genesis of Pakistan the  fact that uh the best of Muslims the most educated ones came here and left the Indians over there  leader us it did not help at all for sure when you look at who left and who stayed behind you  know this community was decapitated literally you look at the IC officers they all left to  Pakistan moers they made in Pakistani state in the beginning uh sa

me with of course officers  army men uh intellectuals journalists uh so those who stayed behind were mostly Artisans tillers  of the land because you can't leave your land if you live on land uh some some money some some land  holders land owners could live yakatan could live and he left muzafar nagar behind but those who  wereing the land for him to stay behind and they had a new master who was was of a different kind  so yes there was this complete transformation of the community and um it too

k a long time for  the for the Artisans to become industrialist and there is only a minuscal minuscule Muslim  business community in India well so many of the boras and kodas came here also from Gujarat so  really this is the handicap the handicap they had to uh of course recover from and they have  not fully recovered from it yeah sad truth now I think uh the time is come for taking questions  from the audience so we will start from over there may you uh thank you Professor  hboy for the invita

tion Fran so I will translate that's it I think there are many similarities  and it's a very good point because you knowl yeah he wants he wants me to compare the sit  of the Muslims in India with those war in Israel and the black Americans in the US and and it's a  very good point because this is where you need to qualify what is a democracy and and and and the  subtitle of of of my book is called Modis India hu nationalism and the rise of ethnic democracy  what is an ethnic democracy the Democ

racy like Israel is the Ure an ethnic democracy because  it's a Jewish state it is there you know it is on the flag but it's a democracy because you have  elections you have some independent Judiciary and you have some free press well these are three  pillars of what we call democracy but in this democracy some citizens are more equal than  others to paraphrase oh well because the Jews have more rights in the US and in India it's a  de facto ethnic democracy rather than de ethnic democracy but t

he result is very similar the  percentage of Muslims Behind Bars behind the bars in India is very similar to percentage  of the blacks behind the bars in the US the same kind of ofer representation and in terms  of presence in the public sphere you have also this kind of discrimination discrimination or  self-discrimination you know this is always very tricky at one point do you stop to to try  when is self censorship reflecting a kind of internalization of well there is no need for me to  try b

ecause I will not get what I deserve but but the result is the same so I think we we we have  entered a a new era where this is becoming more or less the rule ethnic democracy has become the  standard M because of national populism who how do you win an election today when you're Orban  when you're bonaro when you're Trump when you're uh erdogan you attack your minorities in the name  of nationalism and the nationalism you the nation you defend is the nation of the sons of the  soil the majorita

rian nation at the expense of the minorities migrants or minorities of some  other Community there are elections but there is no equality okay uh hello sir as uh you discussed  that uh in the areas where con Congress wins the number of Muslim representation increases and  in the areas where BJP wins the mus the number of Muslim representation decreases so what is  the reason behind that I mean moodi wasn't like other politicians graduated from Lincoln's and  graduated from University of London h

ow did he come to change the uh the course of Indian po  like uh Congress was the founding party of of modern day India but it changed less than a decade  moodi moodi changed the course of Indian poity how did it happen drastically how can such a change  happen uh despite uh you were T seller how does it happen in does it happen is it possible well  it is possible no this is this is Bo Bank politics if you want to consolidate the hu majority at  the time of election you do it by targeting the ot

her by the way this is what he state to do in  Gujarat you know it's not 2014 the starting point is 2002 the model crystallized in 202 and was  repeated he won in 2007 he won in 2012 he won in 2014 he won in 2019 always following the say  the same modar you have a huge Hindu majority that you can transform into a political majority  by targeting the other and by saying by the way this is these are fifth columnist supported by  the neighboring country this is what he said in 202 for the first tim

e of course it works  but and again it works elsewhere too this is not no how did nanu won win yeah by having a  very similar attitude security oriented against the fifth columnist against the terrorist within  in our midst this rhetoric is very well oiled by the way there are companies who are selling this  marketing political marketing it's not as if and they invest billions in this an election campaign  in India is as expensive as in the US BJP spent 3.9 billion doar yeah so it's easy after t

hat to  sell your life uh did you notice sir our textbooks are still full of hate against the Congress and  Gandhi and Neu so surprisingly now there are many pakistanis who would privately tell you that  Congress was not such a b bad party so but our textbooks don't have any hate against the BJP and  has any study been done how the Pakistani Muslims and Pakistani Hindus and Bangladeshi Hindus have  done compared to Hindus uh compared to Muslims in India for example I read that even in this  situ

ation the literacy rate in Indian Muslims is higher than Pakistani Muslims there it is  probably 65% and here we have 62% yeah well that's quite possible you know the fact that but  um it's interesting this the point you made uh I would not be surprised if your extremist would  be more than happy to have extremist on the other side too first it's reconfirmation that partition  was needed two there is no way we can reconcile and each of us will be having our own majoritarian  agenda suppressing t

he minorities they do it we do it this is the problem because and it's not only  in these two countries it's all over the world now when will you be able to migrate in a place  well in the future when each government will be majoritarian to such an extent that you want pure  politics and and and a pure society and a pure race hello sir I wanted to ask how did Britain  after uh after the incident of 9911 somehow I was able to have a Pakistani prime minister a Muslim  prime minister there was a hu

ge uh discrimination against Muslims after 911 so how was it that uh  British changed their political scheme in order to allow mus more Muslim integration in fact most  European countries have a lot of integration with immigrants so how did they they do it and how  can we Implement that in India well Britain is an interesting case indeed because they have  gone further than any other European country really multiculturalism worked there but you  can say that it picked with brexit or almost and n

ow there is an anti-immigrant attitude you  know they are it's very interesting the South Asians have closed the door behind them and they  are now in a position to tell Afghans and other you'll go to Ronda you know this is this is so  typical of yeah don't do to myself what I what I do to others but you're right this is in a  way a measure of the Multicultural Society that Britain has become how far is this sustainable  how far can it go is precisely the question and and the ler riots between H

indus and Muslims  last year we have an eye opening to many people oh they have imported their own conflict in our  society and now we have to deal with it so this is possibly one of the next step that we will see  yeah okay sir there's one thing you talked about the Indian Muslims and the Statics and all that  I will say that in international World there are many uh examples we have that Muslims are being  suppressed and you know being misused and we when we see that there are uh terrorist orga

nizations  majority of the terrorist organizations when they hire uh for their incentive majority go like  to this community so uh if I say that there is something wrong uh presented by the the you  know the scholars of the this religion that they are not presenting the real religion or the  real uh practicing the real thing so this is the problem in in the whole world this is not the  you know no no islamophobia is everywhere and in fact it is fueled by islamism and this kind of  amalgam uh bet

ween islamism and Islam is the big problem we are facing all the time or do you make  sure that people understand that these are really very different entities yeah yes uh thank you so  much sir uh it was a wonderful lecture uh sir you talk about giz of Muslims and the Unholy marriage  of Hinduism and uh nationalism in India but what are the economic implications of the changeed  policy I mean India is dreaming to be the world super power economic power will this policy hamper  this dream thank

you yeah that that's something I I keep repeating if you want to grow you can't  let 1 of your Society underdeveloped undereducated there is a contradiction between this objective  and the fact that you have this huge burden that will remain behind you and and will drag you  constantly so this is where ideology prevails over rationality you know Atif yesterday repeated  at Noam you have to be scientific you have to be rational well ideologues all over the world are  not um GTO isation is a very

important point and a GTO is not a slam a GTO is the place where the  rich and the poor go together for safety and it has a lot of implications sometimes it helps  because the rich comes to a place where they are so little there is little development that  they can help but up to a point in fact you lose the rich capacity that is that was in the midst  of society and helping Society to modernize and it's it's really completely counterproductive  so GTO isation is also pushing the economy in the

wrong direction by the way I'm not so sure  India is bound to be this superow economically that that that they claim to be and one of the  reasons is that one too many people are below poverty line and not helped sufficiently thank  you Dr for your wonderful moderation and your line of questioning very stimulating uh Dr jeo  uh given your grip and command on the history of Pakistan as well I'm really tempted to bring  you a little on our side of the Border uh my question the kind of uh political

consistency  that has let a party continue three terms in on that side of the Border uh can we aspire  to that kind of a consistency here should we aspire to that kind of a consistency I mean  zooming out do you have a broader message for us the youth uh as a strategy of surviving in the  society as a message of hope that's my question basically yeah you you know the problem here is  similar and different at the same time there is certainly this huge issue of in post Zia Pakistan  the modern vi

ews the modern idas have been on the back burner number one two you have this other  Big Challenge how do you emancipate a society from an army that is in control of the economy  in the first place and of many other things also that's a big challenge also and third you  have and this is as we we said in the DNA of Pakistan right from day one an elitist po that  is the recipe for conservatism when the elite can remain so well entrenched in the economy in the  bureaucracy in the everywhere at the

expense of development you're stuck and you may change  the bodyy and you do change the bodyy but they are not in the driver SE number one  and they are representing the same interest number two how can you change and I'm sorry  it's not very optimistic but you see how the challenges are in that sense of a different  kind partly because the Civil Society on that side could not emancipate itself so much  from the from the establishment let's use this key word now on the Indian side we may  certai

nly see a similar kind of establishment taking shape and it's a laboratory it's so  fascinating to see how in 10 years 10 years infiltration of each and every institution  is taking place education is transformed 10 years you can't recognize the universities  which there before gnu you can't recognize gnu so there is a convergence which is  certainly very disturbing but helps us to understand how it happens well it can  happen very quickly Zia was there for 11 years uh thank you Kristoff uh you

defined um  the Hindu race as well not you Saar but um and you said that this whole idea is again gaining  a lot of traction in India so uh racism is just you know a step on the ladder to Fascism uh  how do you see this in the broader Regional context and a fascist State then also becomes an  expansionist state so how do you see that in the context of you know um conflicts that are already  there in the subcontinent how does that turn out there are two questions in one and and and and  and I lik

e to do justice to both because to use the term fism in the case of hu nationalism is  sometimes problematic and and for two reasons one in fascism you have the cult of the leader and  certainly today you have the cult of Modi but Modi in that sense is not typical of the RSS culture  RSS is not driven by a leader precisely because it's a very old organization and it's supposed to  be there forever when you have one leader when you live on one leader when you li on one leader you  know he will di

e one day and you will be stuck RSS has at nine leaders we don't even remember  their names so the organization is not as many fascist most of the fascist parties based on this  principle of the leader which is a big difference the other big difference is they are not so much  obsessed by the state they want to convert Society they are a network based organization so you  have this amazing network of the shakas the the branches you know probably 60,000 branches  today probably 3.5 millions of me

mbers at the social at the social level this is also why  they have they are invested in Trade union Student Union peas Union you know Society Civil  Society plus vigilante groups making cultural policing for fascists to conquer the  state is the priority and then you impose your Authority on Society for  them to gain Society to their cause to gain them over and to see the state  coming as a ripe fruit it's a long-term perspective and your second question I'm sorry  what was the end was about th

e expans yes very important point you have indeed this ideology of  aand Barat that is very much there um right from the beginning well rhyme from partian because  this this puni you know when you look at their map and they have always this map of the region  it covers everything between as saakar said Sindu and synu you know from the Indus till the sea  below the Himalayan Ark this is puni this is the land this is akand Barat how far can this  result in expansionism how far can this result in s

ome adventurist military operation very  difficult to say some people interpret the fact that jimu and Kashmir has been downgraded  to a ter Union territory status to the fact that they wanted to somewhat regain on even Ain  in fact the Chinese have reacted to one of the speeches of bgp leaders zicha as a Revis  visionist attitude so far we don't have any sign of a military expansion and the and and and  the resources are not very much there either but is very good point hi there thanks a lot bu

t but  just one minute before that I think there's a bit more to her question MH India did make the atom  bomb India then went into sophisticate Delivery Systems and then India now has a blue water Navy  so that's more than is required to defend its coost which suggests that now that it has new  economic power that it is not simply satisfied with um mere defense AK bhat um maybe some RSS  ideologues would dream of that the majority of of uh Indians have given up on Pakistan they  wouldn't want t

o take it over I think but they would like to defeat Pakistan militarily that's  so that could be a partial justification for Indian military uh strength the renewal Revival  expansion of that but what about this Blue Water Navy that's that's a that's very worrisome isn't  it well it's part of what we call the indopacific uh strategy you know indopacific as is is now  the key word for most of the strategist India is part of quad with the US Japan Australia  it's very close to countries like Fran

ce with a lot of interest in the Indo Pacific in the  Indian Ocean in the first place but in that part of the globe it's more Vis A China than Vis  anybody else else that India is turning its guns to resist China's expansionism you know the fact  that China is so strongly entrenched in Sri Lanka today uman being a kind of Chinese deep sea port  the Maldives of course gu uh India fs encircled and Fields encircled by China so this is primarily  a defensive kind of attitude now you can convert a de

fensive attitude into a more offensive one  that's for sure if you have the resources yeah okay thank you thanks for your talk talk doctor  uh I was uh curious if you have any optimism at all if India could ever go back to let's say  n India because in my simple mind I could say okay when BJP loses power then things will go  back to normal but surely it's not that easy you can draw a parallel to Pakistan how we have  uh treated our nor Muslims so going taking BJP out of power perhaps won't be en

ough and perhaps  if there is a path to recovery what do you think that is yeah this is a very good question because  elections sometimes makes no difference or hardly any difference and if Congress comes back in May  June with a coalition of course not on their own they are very much aware of that that the state  bureaucracy the economy because you know there is one dimension we've not mentioned so far  but there is the political economy behind this kind of uh National populist regimes uh you h

ave  oligarchs you rely on big industrialists always how do you bring them over you know how do you you  get so the challenges will be many and at the top of it they'll be in the street because that's  where they are the most effective ones so yes you can be optimistic in the sense that the point  of no return is not reached and you can certainly return to what India was to some extent but if you  take care of all these non electoral related not not non-election related implications which means 

a serious determined work that that will be very difficult hi thank you so much it was great uh  my name is Abdullah I'm a law student I would ask my question in uru because my English  is too broken so a little nervous in front of 5 so partition not Happ so if partition hadn't  happened would uh Muslims have been in this uh terrible State now they have been split into  three different uh parts of South Asia and after all the difference between Hindu and  and Hindus and Muslims was there 100 ye

ars ago as well so how much worse is it compared  to that yeah well certainly Muslims were on the decline before partition there is no  doubt that uh post 1857 Mutiny you saw a decline because of Education because of because  of trade because of the modern economy in which they were not so interested as as Hindus and  others but partian precipitated Amplified considerably this trend and uh yes my my my  hch is that the situation would be completely different if the Indian Muslims had the had  re

tained the elite Muslims who left in 47 definitely so my question to you is that uh  actually I have a concern that you talked about positive discrimination towards um for Muslims and  you talked about the Muslim leadership should come up but I have concern that what do you have to say  on a common Hindu mindset about a common Muslim in India for example uh Bollywood if anyone Bollywood  fan is there I apologies in advance Bollywood and digital media and social media did uh far far  worse for in

spreading islamophobia that a common Hindu mindset is so manipulated that uh it is very  difficult for Muslim to sustain in that Society so I think that positive discrimination and other  things they are not going to do better if a mindset of Hindu gets not flexible for Muslim uh  please comment on this thank you yeah but you know this is where uh policies have to be decided uh  for changing the mindset of their people you know because if if you introduce quarters you force  majoritarian people

to meet minority people and to realize that they are not what they thought they  were because now we have this problem islamophobia is nurtured by ignorance of who is the order  because you do not encounter The Order anymore so this is this is a very I would say voluntaristic  policy positive discrimination make sure that you mix in the bureaucracy in the assembly in  the school because if you if you wait for the mindset of the people to change you may wait  forever you know and and certainly s

ocial media is is something manipulated by you have an army of  trolls bad Trolls who are constantly bombarding you with this image of the other so that needs to  be regulated but you can't change that so easily you can introduce POS discrimination more easily I  think and that will probably have similar effects hopefully sir my question is this that as  Professor HUD said that it is pitiful for a secular and diverse State like India to  be work on the nationalism ideologies so if somehow that I

ndia succeeded by suppressing  the Muslims what would be the behavior of the other Muslim states towards India as we can  say that the Middle East is um putting Hefty amount of investments in India so do you think  it would change their behavior towards India you know it's very interesting this is a very good  question we have a team following what are the reactions in Saudi Arabia UAE turkey Egypt to  what happens to the Indian Muslims you know the same way these countries are largely indiffere

nt  to the fate of wigor in China they are largely indifferent to the fate of Muslims in India  except one Prophet Muhammad is attacked then they react it's a very interesting disconnect  between what you call solidarity the Muslim Street my foot there is no solidarity no sense  of being part of a hum of any kind so States you know we are back to the elite question you  know State Elites governing rulers have their own interest at the expense of the larger  agenda they claim to defend this is re

al politic we're going to have two last questions  after this you very briefly already mentioned you know jnu is not anymore what it used to be  right I was I was wondering if you can comment on the marginalization a bit in in the academic  sector in the higher education I am an academic from the Natural Sciences I work in Water  Resources I work with people at jnu but also at IIT and I even see it with colleagues at IIT  that it's getting much much harder for them for example in glassology wher

e I work in which  should be very secular glaciers really don't care uh the most lorded chaologist in India is  Muslim and he's having a very hard time um and and he's an at I which is a bit more I I I would  have expected uh uh outside of the the influence of this uh um of of PJP uh and but I see that jnu  as well and I was wondering you know thinking what Atif Manan yesterday said for Pakistan it would  be so crucial for Pakistan kind of to to look out to the best Pakistani scientists abroad o

n  certain topics and ask them what is that going to do to to India if if if the higher education  is so under undermined by by by uh by by this um yeah the antise secularization um for their  future Prospect and being you know able to to to cope with challenges in future if that capacity  may not be there anymore because it's um it's so much pushed by pjb or or or the Hindu ideology  yeah no the consequences will be huge indeed and you mentioned iits but you know last week IM  IMS have been tra

nsferred to the government I IMS have lost their autonomy yeah so it's true of the  public universities for sure now it's true from for these Elite organizations what is also clear  is that private universities have not resisted this trend and you can understand why you know  owners need clearances from the government for their own business they old businessmen so there  is hardly any place really that is safe or saved or spared uh of course again in the South it's  much easier but it's not so s

urprising when you look at the agenda of indu nationalism it is to  reshape the psyche of the people well education is number one by the way it was true of jamaat  islami when when Z was there jamaat islami was asked to write the syllabus with the support of  the Saudis know these organizations they want to change the mind of their people education is  one of the resources they they use at the expense of rationalism and development of course but if I  might add something to this uh it's not the

Muslim question which is important as far as higher  education goes the restrictions that are being put in Indian universities are not on Muslims they  are on on the left over there the left is seen as far more dangerous than Muslims and every effort  is being made to quell them so you see this is what uh accounts for jnu being a totally different  University from what it used to be earlier and Ashoka University won that one that was one of  the most liberal ones over there and clamped down that

's because it's seen as dangerous to the  Hindu ideology yeah NGS have a tough time as well thank you uh Dr Kristoff great great talk  so the diaspora Indian diaspora they are you know outside they're away from from the lands whatever  is happening all all of the Dynamics taking place in India let's say in the US wherever they may be  uh why is it that uh they seem to be a part of uh this whole transformation rather than pushing back  against it and is there any hope that some support could some

how be obtained from them to push back  and to you know reverse things yeah that's a very if I can just add on to this it's exactly the  same thing with the Muslim with the Pakistani diaspora it tends to be very conservative so does  the Hindu diaspora but you're yeah yeah this is this is a case of longdistance nationalism you  know this is a very interesting phrase um and usually you are more radical when you are away  first of all you face no consequence uh and and secondly you live in a kind

of fantasy you know  you you that's why it works for the sick it works for the Tamil it works for everybody now what is  interesting is indeed to explain to understand this this militancy first RSS has targeted the  indu jaspora from day one now it has a different name in UK in the US it is the Hindu sakang  but because it canot be rria it is in UK or in the US but it is is active over there and they  have their own Student Union they have their own activities Bish indu parad America active for 

decades so that's one very important Dimension you you reuze the SE generation boys and girls  because the parents want them to learn what is their culture what are their roads and they are  more than happy to help then you have the temples the network of temples you go to New Jersey you  go to London you have these swaran temples huge temples which are also part of this network and  then and last but not the least resources for influencing the governments of the countries of  the O Society now

Indians in the US are the model minority richest than anybody except the Jews  more educated than anybody so they have people in very important positions in the business  world in the professions and they can give money to candidates you know there is a calcus  again New Jersey Chicago the the Bay Area it Engineers so there may be a minority but they've  been uh in quote unquote and they have resources so their influence is certainly disproportionate  to their number but it makes some differenc

e and it's true in UK as well where we've where we've  seen the part the three party bringing in its mid uh second or third generation uh well quaza  indu nationalist uh it's it's a very interesting topic because it helps to understand why the West  is also so silent on what's going on in India of course the West is silent because of China you  need you need a country to balance China number one but number two you have this this close I  mean this strong lobbying you can you can speak about an e

thnic Lobby you this the same way you  have a Jewish ethnic Lobby you have an hu Lobby in the making influencing foreign policies from  the inside it's fascinating because again it's a laboratory we see it in happening under our eyes  and very quickly because the affair of China is very big so they play on that so we've run out  of questions but I okay one last one last in an intensely secular country like France your  country what form does U Hindu nationalism take over there in its diaspora do

they also  build temples there like the build in the UK or America no France is more than secular it is like  no there is a real difference secularism means you prepared to recognize religions on a par you are  Multicultural laicity means what it meant for atat we don't want religion at all in the public sphere  so you can't wear anything that is reflecting some religion some religious affiliation in  the classroom in the public sphere and to build shrines of any kind is is is also very  diffic

ult it it's a problem it's a problem because uh where where can Muslims pray you  know so it's true for the indu temples as well uh it's not easy for them there is one  gurudwara there are few temples some mosques but yes lity means we don't want religion  in the sphere so it's completely different from Britain I understand and so you cannot even  have Idols in display in a public place okay good thank you everyone for being here  thank you Kristoff it was wonderful I it was truly the enlightenm

ent  thank [Applause] [Music] you