welcome to politically speaking I'm Elizabeth benan Chancellor's professor of political science and director of community engagement and the American democracy project at Indiana University South Bend as Indiana gears up for the 2024 gubinatorial election Jennifer McCormack has set herself up as the leading Democratic candidate McCormack was previously an educator and served as Indiana's last elected superintendent of Public Instruction before the role was abolished in 2021 and replaced by the S
ecretary of Education who is appointed by the governor McCormack who served the state as a republican before switching to the Democratic party in 2021 now seeks to become Indiana's next Governor welcome and thank you for being here thank you for having me I appreciate it I want to ask ask you about your decision to switch parties you did run and win as a republican in 2016 before changing to the Democratic party in 2021 what is that motivated that change and how does that affect your attitude to
ward governing you know it's so fascinating because I'm not alone there are a lot of Republicans out there that are grappling with the party as a whole and so for me it was about values it was about making sure that I was affiliated with a party that provided hoers with a voice and opportunities and empowered people instead of worrying about using power over people and so I learned a lot in the four years I served at the state house but also as an educator I taught kids for years that character
mattered and so um you know I I had to practice what I preached and make sure that I was staying true to my values and who I am and so that led to my party change but again I'm not alone there are a lot of hooers out there that are you know really struggling with the Republican Party and the extreme that policies that they're trying to push okay so you talk about values and what matters and also this break between you and your former party what is it would you say that differentiates you then fr
om the many Republicans currently seeking to become the next Governor yeah there are a lot of Republicans on the ticket right now and that is quite interesting to watch their race thankfully right now um I should be the Democratic candidate on the ticket and be the sole person so my primary will look a little bit easier than theirs but the clear difference is I'm protecting rights and freedoms I'm trying to restore rights and freedoms and they are continually trying to strip them away it's also
very clear that they're focused on National issues and really trying to run to the Trump endorsement and for me um you know I'm focused on the everyday issues that hoers are talking about as far as wages and education and health care I rarely am hearing anybody talk about their concerns um regarding China although obviously we'll pay attention to National issues and work with who we need to work with at that National level but right now that is not what I'm hearing across the state but there's a
huge difference in their messaging their purpose versus ours so you mentioned that idea of Rights and Freedoms certainly a lot of Republicans we talk to here at wnit say look we're protecting gun owners rights we are protecting parents' freedoms not to be taught things or their children exposed to things we don't think they should be exposed to in the school room or in the school libraries so we are protecting rights and freedom so I wonder how you respond to that yeah we hear a lot about peopl
e talking about rights and freedoms right now and we need to talk about everybody's rights and freedoms just not a small minority of people you know for us to really look at protecting rights and freedoms means we have to protect the Indiana Constitution and the Federal Constitution that spells them out and right now at the s of for some to say they are protecting their own rights and freedoms it's putting others in Jeopardy so making sure we're having an honest conversation about that I know in
our traditional Public Schools I was a special education teacher and I was a force Advocate to protect our rights and our freedom of our students and um you know a lot of the options right now in education take those away and that's just one difference where you know defining in rights and freedoms but it's not just about one individual it's about a collective Society so if you're talking about that difference between an individual and a collective Society are you saying that a few parents shou
ldn't Trump the rights of other parents in terms of what their children look at or what do you have in mind there yeah I think all parents have the rights and freedoms to make decisions about their children and if they don't like the books that are being read or the books that are in libraries or they are convinced ill things about their teachers there are proper ways to handle that it's already in Place having been an educator I know what those procedures and processes are and then they ultimat
ely right now still have the decision on what to do with that so you know there are a lot of protections already in place that people are are messaging that aren't there and we for years have made sure that we are very cognizant of parents and students rights and their freedoms but we don't want to strip certain people's at the sake of others and so it's really about making sure that we're having an honest conversation and not just serving to a very few minority we also talked about this issue o
f gun owner rights gun violence is a serious problem in our country and in all of the States including Indiana what is your proposal to reduce incidents of accidental death suicides homicides by guns while also protecting second amendment rights yeah so I I'm a gun owner there are a lot of people in Indiana that are gun owners you know I hold a life permit license um you know not that that's necessary anymore but you know I I'm a fourth generation foreign family so I understand the Second Amendm
ent I will work hard to protect the Second Amendment but gun violence is a concern in Indiana it's a concern Across the Nation and there are very some very common sense gun safety measures that would really make a difference safe storage there are a lot of gun owners who agree with safe storage you know looking at that age limit for certain weapons is also um very popular again with even with gun owners um but there there the list goes on as far as repealing permitless carry which are law enforc
ement supports there are a lot of common sense gun safety measures that we can take as a state that will not strip away the rights to own we own guns when you look at things like constitutional carrier permitless carry as you mentioned law enforcement generally opposed that change as it sounded to the ma majority of hoers were not necessarily uh supportive of uh the complete repeal of the permits but the legislature has spoken pretty clearly as a governor how would you work with the legislature
to get any of these policies enacted yeah we're seeing a lot of just extreme so um when you have a onep party rule for as long as we have had that in Indiana there's very little reason to compromise or very little appetite to compromise and I think that's dangerous regardless of the party that would be in charge I think balance is good and necessary I think compromise is healthy for State policies that way we stay away from extremism on either side um but you know for me it's about the governor'
s platform having the state agencies having the boards and the commissions Supreme Court appointments it's about making sure that you know I saw who was brought to the table in decision making when I was at the State House that table's not large and it's people look very similar so making sure we are bringing the voices to the table that are the boots on the ground um so we can make some really good decisions and then also use that as our platform in order to move policies forward it also really
you know had getting the governor's office would Empower you know across the board down ballot and I think that is incredibly important too again to address some of the extremism we're seeing when it's a one party Rule now when we think about issues that are important in the state and if we look at the state budget the issue of education is always one that seems to be important to everybody both inside and outside of the state legislature what are your thoughts about the current state of Indian
a in uh of Education in Indiana and what kinds of changes would you like to see yeah so education is the foundation of a lot of things right so education is the foundation of a healthy economy of a healthy Society of you know just an educated high quality of life and so it's incredibly important we're over half of the state budget as well so you know when I was at the state house and I was very cognizant of that I knew the responsibilities that were associated with education and and the impact t
hat had for our students our families our communities and our entire State and so for me it's about making sure that we are supporting policies that have equitable um funding for our students that are serving our most at risk that are also taking care of our teachers as we know they are the Frontline to a quality education um there are just a lot of things that we could do that are not being done one is that salary right now um you know making sure that we have that where it's competitive with n
on- educator salaries that hold the degree levels they have um that would be a good positive step but for education to be successful we're going to have to put a pause on the privatization efforts that are happening which will be a commitment from the governor now if we look at Indiana I believe the state ranks 43rd out of 51 if we include DC plus all the other states in terms of folks who actually attain a ba degree what would you suggest we do to increase the number of people who are college e
ducated and ready for some of those higher wage jobs you know in Indiana having been in the trenches as a teacher a principal and a local superintendent boy we had the swings of policy and when you have that the inefficiencies come out and then down the road you're staring at the results and that's what we're looking at we're looking at the results of 20 years of poor policy that that Educators in the K12 system and highered had concerns about and not just higher ed but in the skilled trades you
know we need to make sure that the practitioners across the board are brought to to the table in order to find Solutions there are a lot of States doing good work and what Indiana tends to do is try to peace meal things and do it on the cheap and it doesn't work so we are absolutely going the wrong way with educational attainment as that is going to be critical in moving Indiana forward so you would like to bring more of the Educators to the table in terms of making the policy as well as employ
ers is that is that the thought there absolutely it's got to be a partnership it's got to be K12 it's got to be our employers it's got to be our universities and colleges it's got to be our um labor unions it's got to be our skilled traits I mean it's got to be a lot of people at that table in order to find Solutions again I saw who was at that table and this is no surprise that we're here where we are and but we also don't have to reinvent the wheel there are some amazing programs happening Acr
oss the Nation but if we're going to implement them we have to implement them holistically and put the re resources and the time into it that it's going to take kids deserve that the other part of this is they've been left out of the equation they have interests they have passions they have some say or should have some say into the ne not just their next four years post high school but the next four decades past high school and so ignoring them in this has really resulted in where we are Univers
al prek is something that our Michigan viewers will see as something that's a bipartisan issue in their state in Indiana it tends to be some division along party lines what are your thoughts on universal prek yeah when I would have those conversations as a state superintendent that's where I was a little bit naive walking into that office because I really felt like the pros really outweighed the cons um but there are a lot of people at the State House who felt like that was more of a home issue
and that you know there wasn't a need for Universal prek and that's absolutely incorrect we've seen data we have learned from others that the impact of that is lasting and huge and it also is a very big cost savings it also helps our economy as our employers um you know have also Services for Families but our kindergarten Readiness is not where it needs to be and that is simply because of the lack of um a willingness from a one party rule again to implement Universal prek you are correct in Most
states it is a bipartisan push because it is so incredibly important um but in Indiana it's just a very hard conversation for whatever reason but the majority of hooers um are in support of it we just have to make sure we have the right people at the State House in order to move this initiative along now you talk about having the right people at the state house and also about one party rule I would venture to say that you predict the Republicans will have a majority in both Chambers in 2024 but
you're arguing that there should at a minimum be a democrat in the governor's mansion or or or or what are you looking at looking forward to get that kind of compromise that you're talking about yeah I think it's a great question I have a lot of faith in our candidates for the house I I know we are really close to Breaking that super majority in the house in that in that chamber in the Senate it's going to be a little bit more difficult we've got a long way to go there but the house is realisti
c and so you know working together with those great candidates down ballot up and down the ballot will be essential but again we've got great candidates who are fighting for the right reason they're they're wanting to stay focused on the values that people are concerned about our rights and our freedoms our wages our roads our lack of connectivity in some of our areas Universal pre some of the issues that directly impact our families that are being ignored and so with the house is very very very
um it's there you know we can that is within a close reach and so the governor's you know office is ENT but also the house so as you talk about the house just so we're clear with viewers you're not necessarily talking about a democratic majority in the state house but breaking a super majority so that business can't be conducted without Democrats at all that's correct I'm sorry that is correct so it' be breaking that super majority which would be a great step toward having more of a balance oka
y now what about there has been debate surrounding Indiana's watersheds and more generally water quality Environmental Protection conservation some in the State House really seem to see this as a debate between sort of environmentalists and folks who are concerned about business uh and economic uh progress and others seem to take a different tactic I wonder what your thoughts are on whether or not Indiana is making the right decisions in terms of sustainability or protecting our environment yeah
first of all I think anything that is done in the space of Economic Development where there's a huge environmental impact there's got to be a lot of conversation and transparency and accountability and I don't see that happening in Indiana and I think that's some of the frustration we're seeing where people are blindsided and not understanding that your aquafers are at risk um your your a is at risk you know your health risk are high so there's a lot to it but again it just having the conversat
ion and making sure that it's been done in a transparent and honest way um would be incredibly important you know bringing in people who will run the tests run the assessments that have no skin in the game for Indiana that will give us a very very honest assessment of the situation for the economic development impact on environmental is incred incredibly important you know right now we've had a couple of years of just a battle against the en environment whether that's our Wetlands whether that's
our aquifers whether that's um you know pfas the the toxins that are life toxins you know the list goes on and we have a lot of environmental issues that we should be having more conversation about regardless of it's not an environmentalist versus a non- environmentalist it's about our health it's about our future and those conversations need to happen I remember former the late congresswoman Jackie wski being on set and talking about the state trying to regulate you know a little trickling str
eam or a puddle on a farm so it's interesting how sometimes the issue of Regulation can uh really become personal for people and uh there's this perception that it just goes too far how do we walk the line there yeah we're not talking about trickles on a on a creek and a farm we're not we're talking about aquifers that serve 70% of our hoers we're talking about recreational Waters that are 100% of our hooers we're talking about our air quality that impacts all of us so we're not talking about mi
nor issues that are people are being ticky tacky about we're talking about going from 189,000 protected recreational Forest to three and that is a lasting generational impact so let's have that conversation you know I respected representative orori she was a a wonderful person um but on this one I just dis agree with um it's not minor issues that we're talking about here these are major life impacting situations and interestingly even like the chemical conversation that we're having right now wi
th the toxins with the pfas situation I mean that bill is unique to Indiana and that should sound alarm bells for all of us that the entire nation has said this is so D dangerous we have to make sure that we're putting restrictions on these toxins and Indiana is opening them up and viewers can check out our episode with representative Bower and representative Dvorak where they talk quite a bit about that issue of the regulation of those pfas thinking about folks in rural communities as you know
they do face some unique challenges opportunity and access to certain kinds of educational opportunities Health Care Economic Development even Broadband can be a challenge what would you do to serve rural uh folks living in the rural areas of our state yeah so I'm in rule Henry County um so I've lived in rule suburban and urban sections of Indiana and I am very very aware of the unique differences and similarities but having lived in the majority of that in rural Indiana I understand that first
of all it's got to be a priority we cannot just assume because you know over half of our state population or counties are declining in population that we can just write them off that makes no sense I would also say that that long list of things that you mentioned I would add education as some of our most rural schools are losing the most money from the privatization efforts so it's about prioritizing all areas of Indiana making sure we have an incentive program whether that's economic Education
Health Care in order to make sure that those areas are compatible and sustainable we we can't continue the way we're going um we're watching those that we just see um a lot of crumbling across rule Indiana and that's not sustainable for you know for the good of the entire State now I suspect in the fall we will see a Libertarian candidate on the ballot for governor uh candidates such as Donald rainwater have actually done quite well in past years uh in part a big issue is always the issue of mar
ijuana and legalization some recent polls suggest that a majority of hooers do support moving toward legalization either medicinal or recreational U but there obviously are a lot of people who are concerned what is your thought should the state legalize should the state wait until the federal government CH changes its policies or or should we stick with our current policies yeah it's time I mean the rest of the nation is not waiting it's time we're losing a lot of resources to that we're also um
taking away some of the health care decisions from individuals it's time now I'm not saying we open up the floodgates I think we need to be smart about it making sure that we start with the medical side of things and making sure we have a well regulated system I've seen where other states have done it and maybe not been as thoughtful as they should have um but others have done a great job with it but it's time and and I've heard that from across the aisle that the medical piece especially um gi
ven just where we are with um our medical choices in in in the space of pain regulations and Pain Care and uh Mak making sure mental health I mean we I hear from a lot of people that say I want this option many of the hoers right now are crossing the state lines it's it's I we're not we're being naive if we think that's not happening so it's time but doing it in a very purposeful well-regulated way is is I think the smart thing to do and some studies suggest that well moderate marijuana use may
be safe for adults it may have some delarius effects on the brains of children uh how would we be able to protect children does this send the signal that it's okay for everybody or do you think the age limits would be appropriate and enough to protect children if we do move forward with legalization yeah unfortunately I was an educator kids already have their hands on it they do and for us to not all kids but that they can get access to it if they want it and they're pretty Savvy and it's not ha
rd across the state that's not just in certain areas that is across the state so again I'm not saying we open up the floodgates but in a well regulated industry and obviously we're not going to just open it up to all ages and hope for the best that's not what we're looking at we're looking at a system that is set up for adults but but again we are we know unfortunately we have a lot of kids of all ages that are already using and and that is a completely different issue that we are going to have
to address now is there any issue we haven't discussed yet that you want voters to be thinking about as they head into the primaries and then into that general election yeah I mean when I'm across the state I hear a lot still about women's Reproductive Rights and Freedoms and as far as protecting those and making sure that you know those don't go any further and try to restore what we had you know having less freedoms than we had 50 years ago as half of the population makes no sense and I hear a
lot of people talk about this is not just about unwanted pregnancies it's about wanted pregnancies as well it's about healthc care it is complex we can have our own opinions about abortion but to tell someone that their decision doesn't matter in addition to their family their healthc care provided their own spiritual decision and spiritual leader um is is just not very popular in the state of Indiana so I will fight to restore our Reproductive Rights and Freedoms and make sure that women have
a voice as you're talking with voters across the state about that issue do you get a sense that Democrats are now more motivated because of the ban on abortion in the state we often saw evidence that people who consider themselves pro-life rather than pro-choice really voted on that issue are you seeing any shift there based on your conversations with hoard across the state I am but it's not just Democrats it's Republicans it's Independents it's Libertarians that are you know it's not a popular
decision um many people are wanting to fight fight to retain our our rights and our freedoms so it's not really a a Democratic party unique issue it really is across the board but yes people are motivated people are scared they also understand that the Republicans have told us that they want to go further than they did so you know they're already talking about contraception they're already talking about further restrictions on abortion um they're already having those conversations that are impac
ting other areas of people's medical needs and so this is not not just a Democratic party issue this is a hoer issue and I think people are very concerned and very motivated as it is our rights and our freedoms well thank you so much Jennifer McCormack that's all the time we have for this week's politically speaking I do want to thank our guest Jennifer McCormack Democratic candidate for Indiana Governor I'm Elizabeth benan reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work we'll see y
ou next time this wnit local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you thank you
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