[Music] welcome to First Look Washington Post lives onstop shop for news and Analysis I'm Jonathan Kart associate editor at the Washington Post tomorrow is the big day the South Carolina Republican primary and it could be Mak or break for the candidacy of the state's former Governor Nikki Haley or so conventional wisdom says joining me now Dylan Wells campaign reporter for the Washington Post Dylan welcome to First Look thanks so much for having me all right you reported this week that Haley def
iantly says she's staying in the race no matter what happens in South Carolina tomorrow her home state is that is that the strategy or is that more campaign Bluster to help uh supporters stay on board I was in Greenville earlier this week for her speech which comes ahead of an expected loss here in the state tomorrow it's a state where Nikki Haley was a popular governor and she has been receiving a lot of questions about her intentions to stay in the race and so this speech really reflected what
she has been saying on the campaign trail that she's in this for the long run what her AIDS and allies have said about her plans to stay in the race in for super Tuesday travel but she acknowledged in that speech that she recognized that she was getting questions about her intents in her political future but like you said she said she is fully committed to be in this race after Saturday after her expected loss here and she framed herself as David fighting Goliath and she amped up her criticism
of former president Trump even more than she has in the recent weeks and really said that she was not concerned about retribution didn't want to kiss the ring and so as of right now the campaign's plan truly is to stay in this race at least until super Tuesday next week when we'll have all of those additional States weigh in um how is her her message against Trump her her very um strong more pointed criticisms of the former president than at any time during her campaign how are those how are the
y Landing in South Carolina how are how's the audience reacting to those to those zingers on Trump yeah I've been following Nikki Haley for a year and it's been really fascinating to see her transition she has started questioning his mental competency She's accused him of ping around with dictators criticized him for you know talking to Vladimir Putin for criticizing her husband it's just at a whole new tenor and at her events those comments are going over very well there are always Applause lin
es in Her speech a lot of the people I T talk to in attendance say that they want to move past Trump or that they have similar beliefs about him but it's what's going on Beyond her events and those people who are not attending um where those are really controversial this is a state that has become trumpier over the years since she was governor and so those types of criticism of the former president don't play well in general with the broader Republican base so then when you're talking to people
at various events there in South Carolina what are you hearing from them in terms of the the uh issues that are important to them in terms of policy I think when I talk to voters here the top priority tends to be either the economy or concerns around the border and immigration but what's interesting for a lot of Haley events is when you ask people kind of why they're there for her why not Trump why not Biden um a lot of the answers have to do with the age of the Two Front Runners in this race on
either side of the aisle a lot of people think that Trump just isn't necessarily with it anymore and they don't like the controversy that he brings and some of the people at her events have been more moderate Democrats or Independents who said that they backed Biden in the past but now they're concerned about him primarily due to his age I'm I'm scribbling a note here because I'm just W is there any sense that Democrats and Independence will will vote for her because Democrats who did not vote
in the Democratic the Democratic Primary in South Carolina a few a couple weeks ago they would be eligible to vote yeah that's tomorrow would be able to vote tomorrow yeah it's kind of an interesting Dynamic at play here in South Carolina with the primary rules Haley has made a few kind of appeals um softly in that direction you know mentioning at her events that anyone can participate not just Republicans provided they didn't vote earlier this month and the Super PAC backing her her has put out
some materials with similar language and then there's been kind of a ragtag movement on the ground of some groups to try to get Independents and Democrats to turn out for her there's one group in particular that's been sending text messages and holding some events trying to appeal to Democrats who might you know back Biden in the general election in November but trying to convince them to vote for Haley in the Republican primary with their pitch being a choice between Nikki Haley and Joe Biden
as better than a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump so I gotta I have to ask you about a little bit of controversy that uh Nikki Haley got into after the Alabama ruling um that said embryos are people um she she voiced agreement with the Alabama Supreme Court ruling um by telling uh NBC's Al Vali that yeah yeah she does think that embryos are people two questions one on the campaign Trail how did that go over assuming that anyone cared that that it was as big a controversy uh and and two
the impact of that comment on her campaign broadly speaking so Haley said that she believes that embryos are babies but then she later kind of tried to walk back part of that statement and said that she wasn't necessarily saying that she agrees with the stance of the Alabama ruling so it was really reminiscent for me of how she's talked about abortion on the campaign Trail which is a way that her allies and supporters say has garnered her further support because she's framing herself as a consen
sus Builder but her critics say is her trying to have it both ways or be wishy-washy on what her exact position is um so this really reminded me of that and not necessarily saying the specifics of where she stands on the ruling but kind of offering a glimpse into how she is talking about this I think it's really interesting because her stance on abortion where she has centered you know talking about finding consensus and not said as many policy specifics has allowed her to build some support wit
h you know voters who believe in the right to abortion who wouldn't otherwise support her so her weighing in on this Alabama ruling in whatever sense that she did that did give more fire to the Democrats in particular who have been saying that she's just like Trump she's Maga as well that she would restrict the right to abortion and for those voters who are democratic leaning who might be supporting her particularly who are more pro-choice um it kind of goes against some of the how they're think
ing about her stance on abortion otherwise right let's talk about somebody else and that's Senator Tim Scott uh and I'm just wondering I mean Donald Trump is so far ahead in the polls I'm wondering two things um is Tim Scott Tim Scott also ran dropped out of the race and endorsed Donald Trump so my two-part question is one well it's the same question who benefits more from Tim Scott's endorsement of Donald Trump does Donald Trump really need Tim Scott's endorsement to help him win the state or i
s Tim Scott's endorsement a way of saying hey look at me I want to be vice president I mean given Trump's lead here I don't think that Tim Scott's endorsement is going to be necessarily Make It or Break It by any means for the former president but Scott has been a key surget for him in the state he's been at pretty much every Trump event that we've seen here ahead of the primary he's been going out to events on Trump's behalf and really putting in some of the effort showing that he is here for D
onald Trump and so I think that that will be really interesting to see with the vice presidential speculation because Trump has been praising him a lot here in South Carolina and I'm curious how that continues going forward after Saturday's primary and I can tell you that the Haley Camp took Tim Scott's endorsement very personally um you might remember Nikki Haley appointed Tim Scott to the Senate back in the day um actually Nikki Haley's son nen has been introducing her on the trail and in one
of those introductions referred to Senator Scott as Senator Judi which I think gives you a a sense of their thinking about that endorsement it's gotten downright biblical in South Carolina Republican primary Dylan Wells um I don't think we've ever met nice to meet you Dylan Wells campaign repor you campaign reporter for the Washington Post thank you very much for coming to First Look have a good weekend thanks for having me time for the opinions round table so let's go go to the opinion side of
the Washington Post where we will find Washington Post columnists Max Boot and Jennifer Rubin Max Jennifer welcome back to first look great to be here thanks so let's get to the breaking news that is that is hitting as we speak the Biden Administration announcing more than 500 sanctions against Russia in response to the um Unexpected death of Alexa naali in a in a siberian prison uh um um a lot of the sanctions are meant to constrict uh Russia's energy Revenue but Max I would love for both to ge
t reactions from both of you but Max your reaction um to these sanctions could the administration be doing more and should the administration have already imposed these sanctions on the energy sector considering Russia's what 363 days away from being two years in into its invasion of Ukraine well you took the words right out of my mouth Jonathan I was going to say like why are we imposing these sanctions now instead of two years ago why wait I don't think these sanctions are going to have a sign
ificant impact on Russia because Putin has basically learned to live with sanctions and the Russian economy continues to function principally because Russia is able to sell a lot of its oil to uh first to China second to India third to Turkey and unless those countries cooperate in crack down on Russian oil sales which they're not going to do the sanctions will not have a significant impact there are things that we can do that I think would have a significant impact for example there is $300 bil
lion do in Frozen Russian funds in the west which we could send to Ukraine tomorrow that would be a massive boost to Ukraine and a massive blow to Vladimir Putin and of course there is the uh $60 billion Ukrainian Aid bill which is stuck in the house and obviously both of those things are Beyond Joe Biden's power to do on his own for the $300 billion he needs the help of our European allies for the 60 billion he needs the cooperation of the house but those are the significant things we really de
sperately need to do to strike a blow against Putin and his regime these sanctions are not going to do it they're they're they're symbolism but they're not going to be all that significant Jennifer you're your your reaction well I certainly agree with Max and that 300 billion uh in uh frozen assets is really uh a point of contention uh the administration keeps saying that they need authorization from Congress um they don't have the unilateral power to do that uh there are a number of constitutio
nal Scholars who say that simply isn't the case now the bigger problem is that many of those assets um are not in US Banks and us uh on us soil so we do need the help of our allies and um one would hope that that that pressure is continuing now I can also Imagine the Allies saying well we'll go along with this but where is your aid for Ukraine and they've got a point um and that comes back to the Congress now uh just in the last day or so um uh we learned that the Democrats in the house are plan
ning on getting a discharge petition going um as of March one I believe um and that would finally we hope um spring the aid bill from the clutches of the Maga Republicans get that on the floor get a vote hopefully it'll match up with the Senate and we'll finally get that aid but Ukraine is in a very very bad way and either lawmakers don't appreciate it or they simply don't care um they are running low on uh just ordinary um ammunition so they have to if you can believe it people in the front hav
e to regulate the number of um missiles they can shoot the number of bullets they can shoot every day that's how bad it is and this is an absolute disgrace for the west and for the republicans in Congress if we let them down we're coming up on the two-year anniversary of this heroic fight this is our fight against tyranny our fight uh for the uh sanctity and the security of the West and we are letting them down um my math was wrong it's 364 days because they're 364 5 days in a year and tomorrow
will be two years um since Russia invaded Ukraine there's other breaking news that we woke up to even earlier than the news of the sanctions Max and that is Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer uh who doesn't travel all that much but he arrived in Ukraine this morning with a delegation of I think about three or four other senators in tow um according to the reports he's there to talk to to meet with presid president zinski and then come back to Washington with the message about how bad things ar
e in Ukraine and Why Us support is desperately needed and why the bill Jennifer was just talking about and you were just talking about um must be passed I'm just wondering will leader Schumer's undertaking of this of a dangerous trip to a war zone will that have any impact on the mega Republicans who are standing in the way of anything going to Ukraine probably not I mean I'm glad Chuck Schumer is there I think that's what responsible American leaders ought to be doing which is to showing solida
rity with the ukrainians in the in their resistance after more than two years to this unprovoked Russian aggression what really struck me Jonathan when I was I was actually in Ukraine a few weeks ago myself and what struck me in and kind of came at me it was just such a moving experience to be with the ukrainians and to see how Resolute they are you despite the suffering that has been inflicted on them by by Putin and his and his military and how they continue to stay un strong uh despite the at
tacks on civilians the horrendous atrocities the Russians have carried out and so forth what really struck me is where is Mike Johnson Mike Johnson is the house Speaker he holds the future of Ukraine in his hands the course of this war is not going to be determined on the battlefield in Ukraine it's going to be determined in the House of Representatives in Washington and Mike John has more power than anybody else to determine what goes to the floor what gets past what doesn't and right now he's
blocking the aid bill that Ukraine desperately needs as Jen Rubin mentioned they are running low on ammunition uh and and they've just lost that defco another city that fell to the Russian Onslaught because the Russians were firing you know 10 to 15 artillery shells for every one that the ukrainians had so my question is it's great that Chuck Schumer is there because but we know he's already a supporter of Ukraine and he passed the bill in the in the Senate but where is Mike Johnson doesn't Mike
Johnson want to go to Ukraine he's never been there he should at least have the decency if he's going to tell the ukrainians that he doesn't care what happens to them if he is going to allow the Russians to conquer and Destroy Ukraine he should have at least the decency the guts to look ukrainians in the eye and say screw you I don't care what happens to you but he doesn't he's a coward he's staying in Washington he doesn't have the guts to go to Ukraine and see for himself why R8 is so despera
tely needed it's heartbreaking you know Max I he and we all I hear and we all hear and see the passion I in in that response and it is just it's mindboggling to me uh to Echo your point that the speaker of the house um is doing what he's doing and you raise a key question where is Mike Johnson and we know where he was on President President's Day because he put out a a a tweet or whatever of a picture of him of himself with Donald Trump and so Jen I am wondering is the reason why speaker Johnson
isn't doing anything on Ukraine isn't even bothering to go to Ukraine because the real speaker of the house is telling him not to I think that's absolutely right um Mike Johnson from all I hear both from Republicans and Democrats usually off the Record he's weak he's confused he has no plan he is in over his head uh and all he does is try to stay out of the firing zone of the Maga Republicans and Donald Trump so he does these St stunts he mouths off at a republican Retreat um giving them a Chri
stian sermon rather than addressing the issues before them he is a pathologically weak inept figure and and that Republicans would go to him because he is weak because he can be manipulated speaks volumes about where the Republican party is remember this happens at a time that the House Republicans impeachment scheme has once again been revealed to be based upon the testimony of someone a Russian who consorted with Russian intelligence if the Russians paid Republicans to assist them they would n
ot be doing anything differently than they are now they are doing everything in their power to enable Donald Trump to subvert this president who has been strong on Ukraine to come up with this and ball impeachment story which has now been thoroughly discredited they are not pursuing Aid I think one factor and one story that perhaps deserves much more coverage is why is the Republican Party essentially now an adjunct of the Kremlin and that's not an exaggeration they are pursuing a political cour
se to disrupt and remove um presumably President Biden from office because he is an adversary of Russia they are holding up Aid to Ukraine because that's what Vladimir Putin wants and we have a a party that is not only in the sway of Donald Trump but is really acting as an agent of a foreign country this is a disgrace this is an outrage this has never happened in the history of the United States and yet and this is called a a transition and yet Donald Trump tomorrow is expected to win the South
Carolina primary um there is a poll I had it on another shet yes there's the USA Today selfic University poll that has Trump leading Nikki Haley 63 to35 there was another poll that I can't find that I read this morning that has Trump up also by by 30 points um if Trump wins Max I'll go to you with this if Trump wins the P South Carolina primary tomorrow what should Nikki Haley do she says she's she's staying in through super Tuesday but should she well I think she should to make the case to Repu
blican voters about why they're making the wrong choice and I think you know there will be a Moment of Truth for Nikki Haley is she has really come out very strong against Trump in the last few weeks making a case against him that she did not make prior about how unfit he is how disgraceful is that he CS that Putin refuses to criticize the murder of Alexi naali and so forth and so on so at the end of this process is she actually going to turn around and endorse Trump or is she going to stick to
her principles and continue battling Trump to let voters both in the Republican party and the general electorate know that this is not a person who is fit uh to be president I I I don't know what she's going to do uh but I would think that the logic of her recent statements denouncing Trump in very strong and accurate terms should lead her not to endorse Trump and should lead her to stay on the race to continue making the case and and and and maybe get greater receptivity in States unlike her ow
n South Carolina where uh there might be fewer Maga Republicans Max let me stick with you because you're writing a book about President Ronald Reagan uh it'll be out later this year and I'm just wondering how might Ronald Reagan uh regard the current Republican party would he even recognize it this is not Ronald Reagan's party I mean as many people have said I think Ronald Reagan would be spinning in his grave because you know so much of his presidency was devoted to battling what he called the
evil empire and backing you know anti-leftist uh movements or or backing Guerilla fighters who are battling the Red Army in in Afghanistan or battling Soviet supported regimes and and Goa or Nicaragua or what have you so it would have been I think inconceivable to him to see a Republican president or a former Republican president basically saying that we should let uh you know Moscow do whatever the hell they want to do and and attack as many of our allies and friends as as they would like I I I
I think this would be like a mindboggling transformation but clearly this is not Reagan's party anymore this is Trump's party and you know to the point that that Jen Rubin was making earlier occurred to me when when you look at the dramatic transformation and Republican attitudes towards Russia and towards NATO uh it occurs to me that you know Putin's intervention in our 2016 election was probably one of the most successful covert operations of all time because he helped to elect Donald Trump a
nd that continues to pay dividends to the present day where I don't think you would have had these dramatic changes in sentiment in the Republican party if it were not for Donald Trump it might still be a more ranik party but it's not and and so I think utterly unrecognizable for from what it was in the 1980s and so then Jennifer the the question is how did and maybe Max just answered it but how did the party of Reagan become the party of trump so quickly well that is really The $64,000 Question
there are a lot of explanations um I think the one that makes the most sense and that is supported by a great deal of um polling data and other research by people who look at white Christian nationalists is that there was a white freakout in this country um as white Christians um Protestants that is became a minority um they freaked out they think they should be in charge of this country they think that Christianity not the Constitution should be our guiding principles that's what we heard from
that judge in Alabama who invalidated uh IVF which is used by thousands and thousands of couples to conceive children um this party gave itself up to an ideology that essentially is totalitarian anti-democratic uh isolationist and people like that seek others who are nationalistic who are tyrannical who disregard human rights they glob on to other dictatorial figures so Donald Trump's Idol is Vladimir Putin it's people like that that he wants to be like if you think about it remember this is a
man who killed his primary dissident opponent Alexi naly who killed another dissident in Spain this week who invaded another country and committed atrocities that's the idol for this party so I think the very long answer to your very simple but not simplistic question is when they decided they wanted to go down the route of white Christian tyrany they took on all of the baggage that goes with that including an affinity for anti-American Aman dictators and Max I'm going to give you the the last w
ord on this um in listening to Bo both your answers I come back to a question I keep asking um various people at various points particularly on my Show on MSNBC and that is have the American people given up on democracy and I asked that question because about half the country likes Donald Trump they like his authoritarian in um ways the things that he that he's saying there's a reason why he is romping to his third consecutive Republican Presidential nomination um weren't the aren't the American
people primed for this or weren't they primed for this very successful Russian operation in 2016 um and that's why we're here right now those are great questions and great points Jonathan and I share your anguish and dismay I mean I really can't believe how many Americans are showing that they don't care the slightest about preserving our democracy and they're willing to elect somebody who is facing 91 felony counts who's already been impeached twice who's promising to be a dictator for a day w
ho's promising basically to to uh uh wreak Vengeance on his political enemies who's promising to mass m mass roundups of uh undocumented immigrants who's promising to obey and NATO all these things that have been you know kind of the bul works of the of the American Democratic order for decades he's promising to tear them down and a lot of Voters are applauding quite literally so uh it it is very dismaying and I think what we're seeing is that for a lot of people they're not really concerned abo
ut preserving democracy they would much rather have their own policy preferences enacted into lot in the way that Jen Rubin just discussed and of course there are a lot of alienated folks in this country uh who think we're going in the wrong direction and who are very primed for a dictator who will give them what they want that's you know this is the kind of thing that we always thought could only happen somewhere else it couldn't possibly happen in America but it is happening in America right n
ow and we have you know only a few months we only have this year to to save our democracy I really believe this is an existential election you know I'm continue my trend of not being able to count Jen we actually have literally one minute so I will um get your thoughts you know Don Ronald Reagan had a great expression that I didn't fully appreciate U Maxwell like this which is we're always won election away from losing our freedom and that is absolutely correct if we elect Donald Trump and his e
nablers in Congress they will proceed to dismantle um in a day in a week in a month um what we considered to be American democracy and it is also true that democracy is not a static thing um it is a Act of being it is a mandate for all of us to get in there and fight for a democracy we used to take it for granted that whoever won well American democracy would go on that is not the case and um the outcome of this election is going to depend upon other Americans who believe in democracy who believ
e in a decent Humane Society who do not want their lives run um by Christian nationalists um who tell them when to have children when they can't have children children what they can read what they can't read what they can learn um it's going to be those Americans um who determine the fate of this country and it it really is all up for grabs this year Jennifer Ruben Max boot this has been an incredible and important conversation thank you both very much for coming back to First Look have a good w
eekend you too you for more of these important and interesting conversations sign up for a Washington Post subscription get a free trial by visiting wo. stli w.st backli also today marks 331 days that Wall Street Journal reporter Evan gershkovich has been wrongly imprisoned in Russia his crime journalism I'm Jonathan Kart thank you for watching Washington Post lives first SL
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