Kara Swisher with Reid Hoffman | Silicon Valley’s Burn Book

Thanks for coming. Yes. And clearly your town remembers you. Yes. Yes. I'm still of this town. I still am a homeowner and I love it. Yes. I don't think actually, before I get to the housekeeping, because I don't think I've ever gotten a clapping before I got onto the stage. So congratulations. Yeah. So. Hello and welcome to today's Commonwealth Club World Affairs Program. My name's Reid Hoffman, partner Greylock and I'm delighted to be here. It's my pleasure to introduce someone who's not only a

legend and. Legend for calling me a legend. Tech journalism, but you know, a friend, frequent sparring partner and the author of a great new book, The Burn Burn Book, A Tech Love Story. And you know, Karen, I have known each other for more years than either of us. yeah, probably. look, I was about to say, we wouldn't want to say clearly. One of us is a journalist. And the and she's known for asking tough questions and among the reasons I was delighted to to be here is I get to ask him. Good. I'

m so excited. Finally. Finally. And so, you know, we'll see where this goes. I also think that people should understand you, not just as a journalist and a truth teller, but also as an entrepreneur. Right. Yeah. You know, because you've been innovating within the the the journalism ecosystem and the tech media ecosystem in a bunch of things. And I think that's been a real, real contribution. So welcome back to all of club. Thank you. I'm glad to be back. So let's kick it off the way you do in yo

ur book. As it turned out, it was capitalism, after all. Yes. Yes, that was Mike. You don't have to read anything else. That's that. So a great line about you. You know, possibly cynical. So, you know, you know, the positive. I actually think of you as actually a tech optimist. So. So why did you open your book that way? What? What what caused you to think that way? Because, by the way, is it an Marc Andreessen tech optimist? Because please don't in any way, shape or form. But yes, I am a tech u

p. Not an optimist. No, I'm a pest. I'm an optimistic pessimist. I assume the worst and I'm thrilled when the best happens. But which I started off and I wrote it in a certain way, so it turns out and after all, was because when I got here and as you recall, we met and I think you were one of the ones that I actually believe the wanted to do good things. Everyone else hopefully is still present. It is present tense. You're doing a good job right now. But one of the. Well, that's one of things I

love about Kara. It's like. But I'm keeping attention. I am paying attention. I really wanted to say because when I got here, there was this whole idea and you remember and we were just reminiscing backstage. There was an ethos here. There was a feeling of newness, of pioneering. It was a new industry being born. And so there was the excitement around that. And of course, you're always very positive during those times. And one of the things that a lot of the tech entrepreneurs did at the time, a

nd some of them meant it, others not so much were this idea that we're here to save humanity, make things better. It was that Star Trek vision of the universe. And I talk about that, that there's a Star Trek mentality among certain in tech when in fact it really is more Star Wars, when it where things are a little more difficult and that evil tends to prevail, that the heroes are very flawed. And also they don't win a lot. They really don't. If you really take apart Star Wars, I've interviewed G

eorge Lucas about this. It's a dark tale. Star Trek isn't. And so there was a sort of Star Trek where the villains turned out to be good and everyone gets along And look, it's so diverse and, you know, there's struggles, but really not as a very simplistic idea of humanity and a good one. And so I was sort of bothered and I went back and looked at some of my early articles. I was down with this. I wrote a story about the ten things tech people will tell you that aren't true, including We're here

to save the world, including there's no titles here when in fact there was power, right? You know, I'm chief Yahoo! And I'm like and yet, you know, or whatever. And the only person who actually did articulate it honestly was Mark Zuckerberg, which was the I'm the CEO bitch thing, which I was like, Thank you. That's correct. You are. And you control everything. Although he later would lapse into this, he'd call me. He'd be like, It's all about the community. I'm like, Well, why do you control th

e whole community? And he's like, But it's the community. And I'm like, And yet you can't be fired. So it's not about that. And you make all the decisions. And so, so we so I really wanted to say, just like Wall Street insurance these are you're just like them. Like you're not like you don't have a Wall Street person coming up to you and saying, what I really want is world peace. They never they'd say, I want to make money because I like money and I like my house in Connecticut and whatever. And

so I wanted to say, look, this was all about money and power. And and that's okay if we admit that that's what it's about. Yeah. Although, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to kick off here and, you know, I love both your role as the kind of, you know, watch person of the industry and also the asking the hard question I think is really important because there is a whole bunch of B.S. and a whole bunch of people who are like hypocrites, like, you know, I am doing this thing. I'm doing this, yo

u know, electric cigarets thing to change the world, right? Right. The dating service, the digital dry cleaning service, that kind of stuff. You know, it's exhausting after. A while and, you know, well characterized by the Silicon Valley, HBO series. Yes. And but but also part of the challenges is to get I don't know of a way to get tech to scale other than buy companies. Right. Right. And so and there are places where tech companies actually can have a really good positive impact on the world.

Sure. And so it's not necessarily a false it's not the goal, but. It's the it's the you know, it's the narcissistic tendencies that drive me crazy. It's the idea that you're at the center of the universe, that this is, you know, someone really smart. Dan Mazur has written a book, another book. He wrote the first Facebook book that became Social Network. He said, you know, he's talking specifically about Elon. But, you know, a lot of these characters think this is a video game and they're ready.

Player one And I wanted to say like, look, this isn't they're not doing this out of the kindness of their heart, even if there might be good outcomes. And one of the reasons there's bad outcomes is because they're pretending in cosplaying that it's something other than it is, which is we're going to you know, we're we're a construction company. We're building that highway the way we want to do it or we're doing this. And so I just would I would really like them to admit what they're doing is bui

lding companies, which is great. But a lot of it was this touchy feely idea. And it's not because it was California, not because it was San Francisco. They really did see themselves because they were steeped in science fiction, they were steeped in game playing games and stuff. They saw themselves as like even Apple when they put the pirate flag up. I was like, You're not pirates. Give me a break. Like you're a giant mega corporation. We're pirates. I was like, Stop it. Like, or or more to the m

ore. Which was around, I think you were not like this, which is why I like you was, you know, were they were toys. There was a lot of toys. There was a lot of primary colors. It was a lot like you're in a nursery school, essentially. And so, you know, we have a pogo stick. Kara, I'm like, for you, I had one when I was seven and I it's gone like now or, or there's a scene in the book with a side where they had of first of all, they had a garage, a fake garage door to show their roots, like whatev

er so ridiculous and performative and they thought I'd be impressed and put it in the story, which I declined to or and then they had a slide which between the second. I remember that. The slide, Yes. Now, like go down the slide. I was like, Fuck you, I'm not going down a. Slide giving. Me like I'm 30, whatever. I didn't like it when I was five. I definitely don't like it when I'm 36 or whatever, or, you know, even Jeff Bezos with that door. I remember the door. It right. What he would do is he

said and he wanted it and all the stories like that's what was clear. It was it was all PR essentially that he's like, we're saving money here. So everybody works on a door. And I was like, you know, a key, it costs a lot less, I'm sorry, like a door or a door, like, aren't you and sawhorses? I was like, I don't understand it. And so the performative nature of it, you know, and when Elon, when he was doing that, I'm sleeping on the factory floor, I'm like, there's a motel next door. Stop it. Sto

p this. And then I begin to realize it was cosplaying. It's like I'm playing a character of this person, and that gets exhausting. Well, one of the things I think I think point out the the, the incongruities in the stories is extremely important. It is also, though, part of that the the work is so hard and building the scale companies sure are do need some kind of almost like the punchline yeah some kind of story about what we're doing and kind of why that is. And obviously I think one can do it

without certain forms of silliness. Yes. But the but, you know, when you look across them, it's like it's part of the reason why you look across the like a lot of these huge tech companies. And they're all built with stories like this. Right. Right. Everybody has one. Everybody has like the origin story. And often the DNA of a company is, you know, is like the found that whatever that origin stories and there's a lot of reality in it and about their humanness and their struggle and you know you

and they relentlessness comes from their story same time I was just watching a video of Marc Andreessen talking about, you know, it's really painful. It's really hard. It's so hard. So I'm like, you know how hard it is to, like, drive a fucking bus, dude? Like, how hard is it to like, like, really do? Do you have a bus driver? Goes, It's really hard. And I had to get up this morning and I have to feed my kids and I have to do six jobs. And it's really hard, you know, how hard it is to do what I

do and to hear it from Elite people is I'm sorry, it's not that different. Everyone's job is hard. And so I get that. And I don't I think most would I would I do think stories do matter. When I covered AOL, their narrative was the everybody was a dinosaur. They had a big dinosaur. And Microsoft was particularly aggressive towards AOL. And so they had licenses, built an entire narrative around where the little guys beaten the dinosaur, the big, and they would have people sign it and they'd cheer

. And the I, I get it. It's a team thing, like you're part of a team or Netscape did that or any company point to has to you have to have a foe and you have to have, you know, a story and here's why we're doing it. And I get it. I get it. It's just that they like to self-aggrandizement. Other people just have a job, right? Kind of stuff. It has to be the great the great struggle. And I get I do get that idea about inspirational things. And but I think you're inspired by making great products and

not hurting people. That would be my inspiration, for example. 100%. And actually, one of the things that I sometimes take some of my, you know, industry colleagues to task for is I like like, you know, like she's beating up on us and it's like, cry me a river right from. Where you on that, right. Yeah, She was beating up on us. Yes. Is in some ways one another friend. I'm not I know I'm friendly and I think people are surprised how friendly I am and I know I really am. I'm like, why should I k

now? You know, they're not my friends. They're just not my friends. And when they're beating up on us, it has nothing to do with me. By doing normal criticism, I did not. One of the things I went out of my way to do was I wasn't snarky, although I can say snarky things, but it was like, this is what I think it is. And for some reason it hurt them personally. And there was a really good scene in this book where I do this, where I know the good guys really well. My ex-wife worked there, but it was

not until much later. I covered them for a long time before she worked there. By the way, for people who don't realize that and she was a planet out like she ran planet out and and they they were trying to buy Yahoo! Or get control of Yahoo! And at the time, that would have given them more than 90% of the market, which I'm like, I'm sorry, that's called a monopoly in most people's parlance. And so I was very I wrote a series of really tough articles like, let me tell you, I covered the Microsof

t trial. And this is worse because search was so important and was decimating advertising. And I was like, You can't have 94% and think it's good. And their attitude was like, We're good and we're going to make it better for everyone, even though we control we're the nice Borg. And I'm like, There's no such thing as a nice Borg, I'm sorry. And you know, we have, we have bouncy balls in primary colors. We're not going to hurt you. And I'm like, You ever heard of, you know, like. That. To serve ma

n, that Twilight Zone thing. It's a cookbook. It's a cookbook. It's like you're not here to help us, here to eat us. I get it. Like the kind of thing. And so. And I kept saying them as a cookbook. Yes. And so we called me when I wrote this piece where I said I wrote a piece about this saying the government cannot allow this. I was quite vehement and I was aimed at government regulators. And they were very hurt. I were very hurt. And because the line I had was at least Microsoft knew they were th

ugs And is that hard? They were thugs. That's what they were doing. They're a thuggish in their in their corporate behavior. And they called me and they're like, they really hurt my feelings. And I was like, come on, grow the fat, grow a sad or something. And and I was like, Why did it hurt your feelings? And they're like, Well, you know, us, you know, we're nice. That was this is the conversation. You're no, we're nice. It wasn't very nice. And we're not thugs and, you know, we're not evil, as

you know. Don't be. And you know, we're not evil. And I said, you know, I got to tell you something. I said, there's a poem by Yeats, which is, you know, some rough beast is slouching towards Bethlehem waiting to be born. And they're like, What a beast. And I was like, forget it. Like, I'm not going. They could Google. I'm going to work. Yes. I was like, I'm not going explain poetry to you, but it's a famous poem. You should look it up, should Google it. And I was like, There is a an element of

evil coming because it's such a powerful platform. And I'm not particularly worried about you, although you've seen so many of these people transform into really loathsome creatures. I'm worried about the evil people coming, because if if this is this powerful, evil people are coming, they're going to use these tools to hurt people and they're going to use it for domination. Authoritarians are going to love it. I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about someone else who, as 97% of the market a

nd enormous wealth and power. I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about the evil people. And they just were like, why do evil people? I'm like, Do you know history? Do you understand? It's like like every single technology tool gets turned into a weapon. It does. And if not first. And the key quote in this book is the Paul Verrilli quote, which is, when you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. And my only question for all these people and they found it offensive was I would like a light

house, if you don't mind, because you're killing us. Like, what's wrong with a lighthouse? Well, a lighthouse gets in the way of our innovation. It was like, what? Shipwreck, shipwreck, shipwreck, like. And I like the ships, but I also hate the shipwrecks. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole point, is we want the ships. We want to be able to use them, but we also want to avoid the shipwrecks. But they don't care about the shipwrecks because it doesn't affect them. That is what I started to feel about

a lot of people, is that they had a careless sense of the impact of things they did and have consequences which children do right. Children don't care about consequences. Adults do, and adults take responsibility for consequences. So in part, I think that's a good lesson. Good Part two. Another question I wanted to ask you, which is, you know, it's in part kind of a statement about, you know, kind of the industry in the ways that we need to grow up and that kind of thing. It's also, in part, a

memoir. Yeah. Why did you decide on the memoir side? I didn't want to do that, actually. I want to just to say, here's some stories. See you later. But my editor was my original one. I'm one of the editors. I had to add one main editor, but Jon Karp, who now runs Simon and Schuster, in fact, now works for a private equity firm. It got bought up by it, which is astonishing what's happening in publishing actually, from a business point of view. He was my original idol in the AOL books I wrote, whi

ch I think were groundbreaking. Like that was the first time people were like, What is this Internet thing? And and that's what brought me here to Silicon Valley and to San Francisco. And and he was very adamant that I initially he wanted me to write it. He wanted me to write, you know, I get it for approach, write the Yahoo story, write the Twitter story. Right? And I was like, No, thank you. I've done my coverage. And he wanted originally for me to do a fictional book. And I, by the way, was a

n advisor to Silicon Valley. I helped them come up with all the specs since I know. It's. A light bulb goes. On, right? Yeah. Like, yeah, Conjoined Triangles of success that was discussed. So that was actually Dacascos. Yeah. So because he was also an adviser to them and when I'm losing my train of thought, was I talking about memoir memoirs? So, So he wanted me to get a fiction. He wanted to hire fiction writer and have me write a fictional book about it and really lay the dirt, which I have a

lot of it is not in here. Like, I don't really go into people's personal lives, but I know everything about their personal life. So far too much. As I was going to say. And the therapy bill is no. Yeah, they do. Some people started telling me I was like, I don't want to know about, you know, proclivities, if you don't mind. And and and I thought, that would be interesting and I could kill someone finally, like someone I don't like. I was like, that could be a murder mystery and I could kill off

the people I don't like. And they'd know who they were, but I wouldn't actually kill them. So and then I was like, I don't know. And it doesn't that's not interesting that and I kept like, pushing it off. And he said, It's got to be about you. And I said, Who cares about me? And he was like, No, it's got to be your journey. You're like Nick in The Great Gatsby. And when he said that, that quote that starts the book in the Great Gatsby, they were careless people, Tom and Daisy, that was like, I'm

Nick. That's exactly who I am. I've seen it and I got to tell it. And then when Walt Mossberg did not write his memoir, which he had a deal to do, so he just decided not to do it. I said, Someone has to say, right, Someone has to tell you from history sense. And we did it a lot through the code conference on all Things D conferences because we have like astonishing history. You've been on stage a lot of people. We have an astonishing history of interviews of these people at their peak and so th

at was one way of doing it. But then it was like, This is what I think of them. This is what I thought. And I thought it worked. I thought the I mean, look, you've done both of you have done an amazing set of interviews. Obviously, the canonical one was the the Gates jobs one. Yeah, that was that was spectacular. That was, wasn't it. Right. I mean, I think being in the audience was. Like, I. Know, mesmerizing. It was it was because they didn't really like each other that they they they reconcile

d a little bit when Steve was dying. Yes. That's for sure. But yeah, they had a real they had a real competition. But we've Walt and I felt that these are the two iconic figures, Right. Even though they didn't weren't the Internet people. They the iconic figures of text people looked up to them for various reasons. Gates for his business acumen. Steve for his inspirational design just beauty of of product, right A real product thing, an inspiration really even an inspirational set of meet a guy

had so many hits it's crazy and so and they were conjoined in so many ways. We felt they had to talk and they had never done it, which was incredible. And we knew they were compelled like you do. They were like planets that went like this, Right? Essentially And Steve had this whole like Gates, really. I always thought if they died on the same day, you know, sort of like the Adams and Jefferson, that that Steve Steve Jobs, his obituary would say the greatest visionary in technology died today. G

ATES It would have been the world's richest man died, right? And he hated that. And so we always knew he wanted that encounter. And Steve was interested in it, too, because he understood his place in history very well. He was very you know, he speaking of well read, well-educated, very thoughtful about things outside of tech. And so we wanted to bring them together and talk about the high ideas of what they represented. Unfortunately, Steve, as usual, tried to he was always pants gates constantl

y, constantly. And it was it was indulgent on his. But we did an interview. We each gave them slots, separate slots at the conference. And Gates sent Ballmer and Steve Ballmer. And Jobs always did it himself, always spoke for the company. And so he gets on stage with Walt. And Walt asked him just one of these very easy question Why do you think iTunes is the most popular use of of on Windows, one of the most popular third party developers. And he said in this was and we had spent a lot of time g

etting them to do it right and and it was very they were never going to remove themselves from it. But we released a press release the minute they said yes, so they couldn't get out of it. And. Have all kinds of tricks and jobs looked at at Walt. And he goes, Walt, if you lived in hell and someone gave you ice water, you'd be happy too. And we were like, And this was hours before the interview and you knew what he was doing. Yes. Fucking with. It. And I was. And he then he smirked. And Steve had

the best. He was like, you know, his little if you go look at it, he's got the best smirk of all time. And, you know, he was the cool kid and Gates wanted to be the cool kid. And so Gates shows up in the green room. He hears about it, of course, and the PR people were like, my God. Like, we were all like, jeez. And I was backstage. I was like, for fuck's sake. I really couldn't just keep it to yourself like that. You're cooler than at least for one more day. One more day. Now, he couldn't. So g

ates arise and it was his stories in the book. He arrives in the green room, very much monosyllabic. And, you know, he's already not the most loquacious person in the world. And he's hard time interacting with people right. And and I hadn't seen him rock in years and he started rocking again. And you're like, God, Jesus, You know, he was doing this. He did it anyway, so. And he was. And you're like, Hi. And he's like, Hello, like this. And you're like, fuck, this is going to be this is going to

suck. And he sat there and just seething. He was seething because once again, he'd been pantsed in front of Texas League by Steve Jobs. Like who is cooler? He just is he's just sorry. He's cooler and and he's not saying a word. And I'm like, this is going be a terrible we wanted them to have a rapport because they did have one And then Steve walks in smirky is ever just shitted in grin like, look what I did to the nerd. I shoved him in this locker. Once again, I have one again. I am the prom kin

g. And and he walks in. He's all smiling like. Your. Buddy. And he sits down and we're trying to get them to talk like we're going to do this. We want to keep it high level. We don't want to be our prophets. We won't talk about big ideas. And Gates's rocking and not speaking and Steve is just smirking and we're like, You're exactly the characters we thought you were. And and so at one point, Gates would just wasn't responding at all. And we asked him a question. We asked a question of them. And

Gates goes, How would I know? I run hell like and Steve, I've never I can't believe this happened, but this is astonishing. Steve had a thing of ice water in his hand, a bottle that was covered with condensation, just covered. And he hands it to gates and he goes, Let me help you instead. So it was so great. And then it was fine. And I still I tried to get a picture of them together. We had Kodak. There was one of their advanced digital cameras, and Gates wouldn't do it. And I finally was like,

Look at me. 100 years from now, this will be the classic picture, the two of you. You're going to be dead in 100 years. Take the picture. He did. He did. He listened to me and so we had this beautiful portrait of them together. And then but then when we get on stage, I started off with a softball and I said, What's something about your relationship people don't know? And I saw Jobs's little head go, light bulb go off, and he goes, You know, for many years now we've been married and and we're dee

ply in love or something like that. And and I was like, no, the gay joke. And Gates doesn't know what to do because he's not quick on his feet. Three jobs and he's like, What do I say? What do I say? I don't want to be anti-gay and yet I'm not gay, you know. Like. Going like this, like, on and on. And he's like, what do I do what do I do? Because I can't see it, but I really I don't want people to think I'm gay or whatever. And we're not gay, by the way. We're not we've never had sex, you know.

And it was. So funny and all he does is go like that. It's a great go watch it. And jobs once again smirks. But he ended on a beautiful you remember that like Aquaman what a great he gave a Beatles quote That was great. It was a great interview. I should have quit right there. I actually thought Gates should have reached out and taken his hand. really? Yeah. I'd give him a yes. Yes, yes. Yes. That is what I would have thought would have a big effect. Yes, that would have been a great moment. Yes

. No way. He wouldn't admit. No, no, no. But but even just taking the hand would have admitted it. But he can't. He doesn't have that ability. He's not that. Fast. But but but in terms of like the tech industry becoming more mature, not, you know, spinning, you know, hypocritical, fiction's understating the role and responsibility. You know, I think Gates's life is a great. 100% right? Yes, 100%. I think he has shifted one time backstage is a former wife. Melinda was on stage and she's really qu

ite inspiring and has done all kinds of interesting thing. I had met her when she was a product manager actually at Microsoft, and she worked for Microsoft. Bob, For people who don't know. That. Particular I don't think she was Clippy, but she was Microsoft that Bob and I'd look up Clippy. And if you know what that is, you're of a certain generation. Yes. And we were backstage and she was so great. And he and I had a very testy relationship, actually, for a long time. Not recently, but but he I

looked I looked at him. I don't know why. As I say, things come out of my mouth and little like Steve Jobs in that way. And I said, she's amazing. What she's saying is amazing. I she was doing an interview with Walt and I said, you know, I like you 10% better right now for being married to her. And he goes, Well, and he knew Meghan, my wife, And he goes, Well, I like you 10% more because you're married to her. And I was like, okay, that makes sense. But He is improved because he's focused. Gates

proposed, and I'm leaving Epstein stuff out of that good, bad, very bad judgment there. But at that, he he is focused on climate change vaccines. I think philanthropy, Bill, is a really different person. Right. And has seen the bigger responsibility because he really was quite quite a, I must say, villainous but a figure of great aggression and non caring about stuff for a long, long time. And so he progressed and I do think over history he's going to be seen in that way the stuff he's done aro

und vaccines and by the way, he's endured endless crazy shit and around the vaccine stuff, you know, I can't, I can't go anywhere with something. You know, he's trying to put a chip in our brain. And I was like, no, he's not. Yeah. He literally got approached by a woman in Seattle who was like, You're putting chips in us with the vaccine. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know. He was like, and but the climate stuff he's doing, the investments are really interesting. Yeah, he's leading the way on some stuf

f that is really important. I think I do. I think climate change stuff alone is really. But the studies on vaccines around malaria, around, it's really. It is. And I you know, does it make up for his other behavior? I suppose, you know, in some people's lives aren't one part. It's the addition and subtraction. And he certainly, you know, he really was an aggressive he sort of was the personification of aggression and monopolistic behavior for a long time. Yeah, but that was one of the reasons I

wanted to actually. We got to it in a different path. One of the reasons I want to ask questions is some of the this is the kind of young idealists dissent. And to bad behavior. Yes. Yes. It is one part of the memoir. Yeah. But there's also some times where where you get to these people who who their later phase is like, you know, a champion for the world. And that's part of the. World, but is a better business person. They don't have to like do they don't have to create vaccines. They don't hav

e to do that, but that they progress. Like, look, Brian Chesky is a good example. Always a nice guy, but never not a nice guy. But, you know, they made some real mess ups at Airbnb, but he learned and he progressed and he admitted and he tried to fix it and it's and again, there's all kinds of issues around here, although now we're not quite as incensed Airbnb as used to be. But there were issues that were clear about renters and things like that, and you at least saw an educational, a movement

and an acknowledgment of the damage and that you didn't see. Evan SPIEGEL is another person. Who really was he a tech bro? Like, you know, And we had lunch once when he had written some unfortunate emails as a college student, and I never wrote about it because I was like, he's a college cares. Like he, you know. Everybody the college students, the definition of young, right? I was like, well, that was a really obnoxious email, but it's maybe it's on him. Maybe he's going to change. Maybe we hav

e to be a little more, which I think people would be surprised. I didn't jump on it at all. That story, a lot of the press did. And he he we had lunch in Santa monica and he started yelling at me over the press and I was like, I'm not the press. Like, there's no press, there's me and there's other people. And I don't know, I say and I said, I'm not going to put up with this shit about you wrote bad emails and you're going to write about him. I'm sorry. You're famous now. well, you're also really

rich. Too bad. And he was like, Well, that's not fair. I shouldn't write about it. He goes, That was different, me. And I said, Evan, that was two years ago. I'm going to tell you it at 40. You can say this right now. You can't. It was how have you progressed in two years and by the way, he has progressed rather significantly, I would say, and has been aware of had they had issues of too many men, there are too many. Like he you know, I appreciate his progression. And so, you know, in a lot of

ways it's a low bar with a lot of people. I'm like, you're actually not, you know, behaving. But there's a lot of people who you have to allow to progress and you have to not. It's a little like the political scene where, you know, someone like George Conway, for example, who I friends with in Washington and people like, how can you be friends with him? And I'm like, you know what? At some point we have to let them back. Like, we have to like, you have to allow people to have changed and develop

ed and be well, they were there when this I was like they were I don't know what to tell you, but if they're having a change of heart, this is that the heart of our country, which is like, you can redeem yourself. And so some people get mad at me, but I don't give a fuck if I want like if they're going to show signs of trying to do things. And it's not like, you know, Bill Gates, the example, I was really quite critical of the stuff that Microsoft did, but I'm going to be non critical and some i

s like, you shouldn't be nonreligious. And I was like, you know what? At this, Liz Cheney is someone I kind of I'm like, okay. Yeah. It's like. Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. She's behaving heroically. Yes, that's that's correct. But at the same time, by the way, her stuff on gay stuff, I but I brought it up with her or his stuff and, you know, the war budget. Terrible. Terrible. Yes, She loves the war. The lady loves the war. So. So. But so does Hillary Clinton in a lot of ways. So like, you

know, it's just it's to be the perfect is the enemy of the good, right? At some point in this country, we have to stop. Like and what's happened is this. Speaking of Yeats, the noisy people are dominating us, the noisy, self-interested people. And there are a lot. That's why I spent a lot of time in interviews now interviewing people. I don't agree with quite a few. Mike Gallagher, who I think is a really intelligent person. Ken Buck All these people, it's it's a lot of them are political that

I'm just going to engage with because I feel like we've got to come to a common solutions or else the contrarians for contrarian sake are going dominate and destroy all of us in a lot of ways. And a lot of them come from tech, this industrial grievance complex of which rich people who are victims. I don't know if you know, but it's very hard to be a billionaire and not have everybody love you. Yes. Well, that's the cry me a river, which I don't like. I was like, look, look, you do not have it ha

rd. It's not. They don't. Right now. One of the things I thought you did that was genius is you actually use some of their tweets, The criticism, and use that as the book blurbs. Yes. For Kara Swisher. Yes, exactly. Do you, do you think that the that these folks, you know, in that hope of coming back might get back to good discourse. For some of them were bad to begin with? Several people on the back of that book were. No, no, I don't. I think either through egomaniacal things or no, some of the

m are lost causes, absolutely lost causes. I would put Ellen among them and and they just they literally just want to watch the world burn. That's what I feel like. They just they want to just be they're angry and disaffected and and have means and money to to make so much damage happen. And that's what they're doing. But some of them. Sure. Sure. The reason I did that is I hate blurbs they had asking people for favors and they insult me all the time online. I thought, I'm going to use it for ma

rketing. Fantastic. At like one genius. Genius? Why not? If they want to, they want to call a lady a bitch. I'm going to use it for marketing. That's fine. You know, I mean, Ellen, her heart is seething with hate. I'm like, First of all, what bad writing? Yeah. Why not? Yes. Good. I want the haters to buy this just as much. I don't. Care. $25 is 25. Yes, it's. Well, and you know, they should before. These are, by the way, some good questions. So I recommend people because some of the ones are on

es I was going to get to anyway. Okay. What would you want the people in the tech industry to take away from reading your book? I think one of the one of the themes of the book is lack of accountability like that. There is no there are no guardrails. That guardrails do not mean lack of innovation. That's the trope you get. Like if you if you fence us in, we shall never be able to create this fine digital dry cleaning service. I was like, Yes, you will. Every industry in the world has some regula

tion isn't perfect. I agree. There's all kinds of messes, but honestly, none like none. Are you kidding me? You're the richest people in the world. You have no constrict anywhere. Secondly, you're welcome for the Internet. You people. It's paid for by the American taxpayer. You're welcome for the data. You're welcome for this. Why do you get all the advantages from it? And then tell us how great you are? You're not magicians. You're people you know you're not no better than the people who create

d roads. You're no better than the people created buildings. And stop pretending you are gods like that is. And you have a responsibility with this great With this great power comes great responsibility, which, you know, they're like Spider-Man. I'm like, No, it's actually goes back, but I'm not going to help you with that. Or, you know, you you tweeted me. Yes. I said, Spider-Man. Besides Voltaire, I know Spider-Man. That was the point. I think you probably did know it. Yes, I did. Yes, of. Cou

rse. Because you are well-educated and soundly educated, which is why I appreciate you. But one of the things you do have great responsibility and you cannot be careless. And I think it's exemplified by that. The one interview. I think that was most important was my interview with Mark, not the sweating one, which was unfortunate, but the one later about antisemitism, where he insists the Holocaust deniers won and where he did not understand the implications of allowing anti-Semitic toxic waste

to flow over Facebook for as long as it did. And then he stopped it years later, right? He didn't understand that and didn't care to understand. And I think one of the things right now, which was a moment I was hoping for a better outcome, was when he went to Congress and they Josh, was it Josh Hawley or Tom Cotton, whatever? They're both terrible people. And I pushed them up into one really loathsome character and two smart people, by the way, which. Is very smart and. Even worse, evil. They're

not like, they're dumb. It's not like it's Marjorie Taylor GREENE wandering around. She is profoundly dumb, let me just tell you profoundly. But she's a feral sense. She's like. You know. That kind of thing. So she is she's like, you can see it. It's like, you know, But they he made they made him get up and apologize, which I thought was performative bullshit. Like, honestly, if you want something to happen, pass a law. Guess what your Congress like. Are you kidding me? You're yelling at this g

uy. He's not going to do it. He didn't do it before. You. You have the power to do it, but you want to have a little scene so you can put it on Twitter or whatever and and raise money like screw you. Like you're I blame them now at this point. So so he gets up and there's the parents with the pictures, which was that was a real moment. It wasn't these parents whose kids got hurt because of social media stuff. And it's not the full story, but you could you should be able to sue Mark Zuckerberg fo

r this and either win or lose in court. Right. You can't. You can't. And so and I don't mind them losing either. It's just they should be able to have avenues. And I had been struck because I had interviewed one of the Sandy Hook parents and and Mark and I had a real back and forth about Alex Jones and who violated the rules over and over. And he did nothing about it. And and the reason the father got to take down a lot of the dreck about it wasn't appealing to their better nature or anything el

se. It was because of copyright infringement, which is like sickening that a person who lost their kids has to fight to get really sickening down. And so these parents had these pictures and Mark looked at them. And I know I know you believe this, but Mark is actually he's a he's a he's a good father. He's a good at that. From what I can tell. He's not a loathsome character. He really is not a villain. He's just not. And that makes it harder for me. And so they put up these pictures. I could see

the person and him see those kids. And I. I saw him go, my God. Like, my God, what did I do? Like, I did I saw it there for a second, but then he couldn't do it. He just couldn't get there. And what he said was, I'm sorry for what happened to you versus I'm sorry for what I did for anything I did that hurt your children. I am. I this is devastating to me. And I know it's devastating to you. And I let let's talk together. He couldn't do it. He had to say I'm sorry for what was done to you. And t

hat is not an apology. That's like saying I'm sorry. It's raining today. Like I had nothing to do with the rain. And that drove me nuts. And I thought for a minute I thought he would have a Gates jump. Right. Like, but he didn't. Although I can influence him, I'm sure. Although after he also. You've been hauled through the public beating and circus of the Congress. It's his party. He took the job. Yeah, took the job then. But he gets the money. He gets the money. He took the job. He shouldn't. H

e created that. If he didn't want the responsibility. It happened to Jerry Yang too many years before on China. And this is, you know, this is this is the job. And he he he if he doesn't want it, then he should not have full he should be able to be fired then and he should leave or whatever. If he doesn't want to do the harder, the harder decisions I get. Congress is a ridiculous thing, but they are elected officials. And this is, you know, even if they're acting like speaking children. Yeah. Ye

ah, we're talking about Congress. Yeah. Yeah. So before we go to. By the way, thank you for the Aegean, Carol. Money. That was nice of you. Yeah, well, that's. Yeah, well, money well spent. Yes, paid for lots, but but again, by the way, Trump can be hauled in court like. Yes, Why can't everybody, like, I don't know. Look, I'm. I think this election is about upholding the rule of law. I think it's extremely important. I think Biden as a candidate is pro rule of law, and Trump is the one who is op

posed. And yes, so do it. The before we go to these questions and, you know, some others pending so, you know, current current news, is Elon Musk suing open air, everybody? Yes. Well, everybody. Right. It seems that. Childhood traumas get played out every day. It has a moment where he doesn't like or at least like to employ. Yeah, the any any commentary from Kerry. Yes. Yes. That's I'd love to hear what you think, but I think it's a ridiculous nonsense lawsuit borne of the fact that he's not the

cool kid anymore. And he was there and he made a power play. It's all about power. He doesn't listen. Let me tell you, you know, I was the first person to talk about advanced A.I. with me and about the risks. By the way, he was the first person. I think you're the second. Like both of you were very early to this. And I think he he overplayed his hand, as he often does, at what he did at Twitter when he tried to get out of that deal. And he's mad. And so he's using legal means to take out his mi

stake, his own mistake. And if you're a contract lawyer, I've talked to dozens of them about this. I want to make sure this is nonsense. There is no contract. There's no nothing. He made a powerplay. He lost. He stock, He walked away or someone called someone a jackass and walked out of there. He loves to do that bullshit because he's a child and. And he lost and he can't stand it. He can't stand. And they Scott Galloway said, I think he's right. They he was part of a team and then he tried to t

ake over the team, which is very clear. And he left. He stopped out because he was real mad. And then and then they went on to win the World Series. And he's like, That was me. Like, Yes, it was at the beginning. But he left. Yes. And guess who you know? And then he's like, I'm taking away your money. And guess who stepped in this guy, right? Like, who wouldn't pay their rent? This asshole does that, right? What a petty asshole. And so, you know, he tried to have control. He's not cool. Now. And

so he's deeply, profoundly jealous because, you know, Gronk. Okay, sure. Good luck. He's he's on a level playing field and he doesn't like level playing fields at all. And the particular thing I thought those emails reflected was his whole point was, I don't think this will succeed as a nonprofit. I think it should be a company that I don't know role and and now and now you're not doing the nonprofit thing and you're working for the company. It's nonsense. It doesn't Elon Musk doesn't care abou

t anyone but himself. I'm sorry. He's a most self-absorbed IT person in need of therapy that I've ever seen. He's not going to get it because that would require self-reflection and he doesn't have I mean, it's a miracle he can see himself in a mirror. Did did you did you write a review of all this book? Well, it's not well, it's book. ISAACSON I had a very big to do with if you want to listen to a podcast, it's very spicy. Listen to it. Yes, I thought it was a tongue bath and I thought it was fu

ll of errors, actually. And I think, you know, including what I thought was, even though it might seem prurient, the drug use was it was not in there. I told him about it. I everyone knew about it. And I thought the journal did a really good, solid, well-reported story. And it doesn't mean it's everything, but you have to acknowledge it. And the more important story in the Journal was not the I like ketamine. I like to give it to myself. I'm like, Look, people, this is San Francisco. Do what you

want, but don't pretend that this board is in any way governing this company. And when the Journal showed the money these people were, it wasn't that astonishing to you, that money these board members are making? It was capitalism after all. Right? He gets to do what he wants because he's they're being paid off, essentially. And so, you know, it's one of the elements you have to put in there. And so I thought that book was just just very much a the typed. But I like Walter. He's a friend of min

e. But I brought I brought up with him publicly that I thought he missed, you know, this whole demons thing and the idea that he has demons. Cara, I'm like, I don't care. I have demons inside a shitty stepfather. Guess what? I had a screw up. My father died. Am I going around and being anti-Semitic and being anti gay and anti-trans? And by the way, as a trans kid, are you kidding me? Like, are you? You know, I don't do that. And I'm sorry. Every day is one more. The immigration thing this week w

as Lowe's, some Lowe's, some. How dare he do that and make up shit like and thank God for Mark Cuban. You know like God who has evolved another evolving character. Just boy, was he a bro. Remember him with the bro days, bro, bro, bro. And now I know that because I agree with him. Because we don't. Often he and I argue about the wealth tax all the but but he like he laid out the deal I mark you made go look at what he did he got on twitter and started laying out wide. DTI was important to his com

panies. He talked about his experience. Here's why I like it. You don't have to. This was our experience. I was wrong here. I did this. It was not virtue signaling in any way. It was a very good primer about how he changed. And and I thought it was great. And when he was doing it, I texted him, I'm like, Godspeed, What are you doing? They're going to come after you. And they did. And and instead of having a discussion about deal, which we absolutely should, you know, and by the way, by the way,

diversity, the opposite homogeneity denied, that's not good. Secondly, inclusion exclusion is so much better. Let's exclude people. That's a nice way to conduct a country. And then equity. no unfairness. Don't you believe in unfairness? Because I do. You know, the whole thing is the same thing with Woke. The opposite of woke is asleep. Yes, exactly. Yes. Stop it. Just start. Which is the reason why they keep saying anti-woke. It's like, well, I sleep. Sleep here. Is. Stupid. Anyway, I just. And

the response from Ellen on this thing when marked up. But a thoughtful thing was you're a moron. Ooh, boobs. Like what? Like. and you're not a serious. If you want to be a serious person, get off the stage. And if you want to, you want to real it. But he can't because he's an attention sponge and he needs it to survive like so he does whatever antics he can do. And the same thing with now, it's a disease of a lot of these people and, you know, like Bill Ackman, like what is what does he know? He

's a rich guy who gave to Harvard and was mad. Now he's an expert on deal. I don't think so. And I was joking backstage. I'm going to do a 90 part series on hedge fund investing, of which I know nothing. Because I. Can't. Why not? I. Kara Swisher I feel I should be able to pontificate on these topics. Like whatever. So I was like, you have a really nice looking wife who's super smart, like, enjoy your children. Like, stop. It. Nair is spectacular, right? Yes, absolutely. The So now back to serio

us questions. Yes. And I'll ask the specific one from the audience. And then also brought in a little bit as the specific is, where's the line in journalism between news reporting and editorial advocacy, but also whither journalism whether. Yes. The whither question. Yes, I think we changed. I've already gone down this road. One of the reasons I was a beat reporter is you really couldn't you're like this happened to read he invested in LinkedIn whatever news stories right. We did a million of th

ose and that's just that's just news and that's the way it was. That's what you did when I left and did all things deal with what we decided to change rather significantly. It wasn't advocacy. It's here's we did the reporting and this is our conclusion. And I thought that was more valuable to audiences. It's not advocacy. I don't think Walt is the perfect example of this. I tested everything and now I'm telling you I like this or I don't like this or it's going to work or it's not going to work.

And so what we did at all things D was get rid of the at the Wall Street Journal whenever I would do like reporting on, say, Webvan. And by the time I looked at it, I was like, this is a disaster because I can do math and the things aren't in place. Not to say the idea wasn't good, but it's not going to work. And so I would write a story and say, This isn't going to work. And my editors would be like, Can you get someone else to say that? And I was like, But I'm saying it. I'm saying it from my

reporting. And so one of the things I don't consider it advocacy. I'm telling you, I looked into it and this is an either I'm right or wrong, but I did the reporting and I don't think this is going to work. And I think a really good example of this. Tell me if this is advocacy. I wrote a column in The New York Times and I said, If Trump loses the election and this was about his use of Twitter and everything else, because I thought it was called because it's become too dangerous, they said, if h

e loses the election, what he's going to do is he's going to go on and on about that it was stolen, that there were lies, that it was stolen, it was stealing, it was that this was fake, this fake that I said it's going to go up and down the right wing echo chamber. And then he and then after several weeks, he's going to try to stop it in that it's going to jump into the real world. And he's going to ask his followers, who is now radicalized to do something about it. I wrote that in 2000, 19 Octo

ber, right. I write at the time I wrote it, the Twitter people, and I said in Facebook, Twitter people are are handmaidens to sedition. This is what's going to happen. Right. Essentially. And they called me. They're like, how could you advocate and say something like that? How could you do that? I said, I'm just guessing what's happening based on what's happened before and the power of this online. I'm not advocating I'm telling you what's going to happen because I did the reporting and I feel l

ike this is what the natural my best guess as to what's going to happen is this. And, you know, it was I was right. And so I don't think it's advocacy. And as to journalism, I think what we did in all things that you was pioneering in terms of doing that, giving people like, here's what we think. We had the longest disclosure statements, you know, here's who we are. My wife worked for Google, by the way. I never got any stock in it. We had separate money and stuff like that and or Peter Kafka. T

his is what I did. This is where I came from, what we had long disclosures because we believe in our audience. We think they are smart enough to decide if we're in the can or not, right? That's one. The other is radical candor. With them. It's like you don't have to agree with us, but we think this is the way it's going to go. You either either right or wrong, and we'll know in the end. But we felt that you added great reporting or live journalism like we did on stage at code. And we we had a ju

st a different thing. We respected our audience and I think a lot of media didn't do that. The second thing is media didn't change their economics at all like they saw it coming. And I even back in the nineties, I was like, Classifieds are fucked. Like over here, Craigslist, you might want to look the same thing with display advertising, things with the subscription. They saw it coming and they never got the technical chops necessary. And then they trusted the tech. The tech companies didn't wan

t to get into media and tech companies wanted to get into media. They wanted to get into advertising. That's it. And they just let it go. And I don't I think it's a very simple thing to me because I've created every business I've created is very profitable, by the way. And so I have great businesses, so they're profitable. So when someone comes to me, I happen to own them now. So I don't really no one comes to me. But when they did at the Wall Street Journal and they're like, and I'm like, Go aw

ay. I did you get the million dollars I sent you last week? Get the hell away from me. Let's move along. So they couldn't argue with me. So you have to match your costs and your revenues, and the stuff you're making has to be valuable to the audience. It has to be a product that's fat. And I hate to use the word product, but that's what it is. It's called the news business. It's show business. This isn't a romantic thing. If you want to stay in business, you've got to reconcile that. And if you

don't, you're screwed. You really, truly are. You are. So I'm going to ask you this next question, in part because I think it's has an entertaining, reflective element since personally my co-founding Inflection with Mustafa investing in I series A in Aurora and autonomous vehicles. That's this car, this. Car stuff that I've been doing. So I will read the question verbatim because it has that entertaining, reflective moment. The tech industry's focus on autonomous vehicles and space exploration s

eems like fiddling while Rome, a.k.a. the Earth burns. What, if anything, could focus our best and brightest and resources to solving the climate crisis before it's too late? You know, I don't think that's actually true. I think there's a lot of investment being made in climate tech. I've seen and by the way, speaking of diverse, you can it's a much more diverse set of entrepreneurs and real and really mission based, really, truly mission. Look, I don't care if they become true. I wrote a column

a couple of years ago in The Times where I said, The world's first trillionaire is going to be a climate change tech person. I just made it up, but I did it because I wanted to inspire them to like, this is where you really you can make money. This could possibly make money, which is I'm only doing it because, look, money, it's like, go do this. Money is over here. And it's also we're going to not we're going to die if you don't like kind of thing. So it's existential. I believe climate change

is our absolute existential thing. And I think tech is not going to solve everything, but it need we need to bring to bear our greatest minds on this problem. It is it is the most important issue. You know, Oppenheimer's about to win it. That was the big thing where all the great minds went to. We need to bring our greatest minds, including government. There has to be government, private sector, everything else, space exploration. I know it seems like a bunch of penis rockets. I get it. They loo

k like penises. I get it. There's no question. But we do have to think about a multi-planetary civilization. We cannot pretend this earth is look inevitable. Even if it wasn't a climate crisis for every planet dies. They just do. That seems to be the thing. So we if we want to continue where maybe we just go, that could be another thing. Like, okay, that's the end of that. But that's a terrible idea. I'm sorry to tell you, but the sun is going to explode someday. It is. It just is. That's enough

years out. That's definitely far enough in the future that. Maybe be about. No, but but but here's the physics. But yes, I think multi-planetary species. I think is important. I don't love that it's now so privatized. I think there's dangers in that, that it's Elon and Jeff Bezos essentially are doing it and then the Chinese and Russian. So I do think that our government abrogated astronomy pulling away, and that's because of pressure, political pressures of investing. We should be investing in

that. We really should. We have an and and thinking about what does that mean? Who owns it? We don't want to get to Total recall where some guy owns Mars. Right. Which is where we're headed our way if you saw it. It's a great movie. Do the Schwarzenegger version is set. To be Schwarzenegger. Version. And John Lithgow is the owner of Mars. Right? I think that's I think that's important. I was there when it is. I do think EVs are important. I'm sorry, and so are autonomous. I know San Francisco's

all. But let me tell you who's the problem in this thing. People driving should not be driving. It's inefficient. It's energy drunk. They get everything. It doesn't matter. One of the things when I know there's complaints from the fire departments of about EV, I mean autonomous vehicles and I and I called them I'm like, how many people get in the way? Your trucks are like And I go, How many? The cars? And they said, Three. And I said, How many people? They said, 4000. And I was like, okay, so l

et's try to like, think about it. So I agree with you. It's not ready for primetime. There's too much beta testing by tech companies on every product. And I get the pushback. But people should not be driving cars. There should be autonomous vehicles, and electric vehicles will be one of the ways we can do that. It's among many a fast clothing is another one. You'd be surprised actually eats up the environment's. Methane is another thing that fails. I know it sounds dumb, but there's all this coo

l stuff being invested in how to make cows not produce methane. Like that's really important. Some of the health care stuff is astonishing. That's happening. I just right now there's a podcast with me and Rick Jobs, which is Steve Jobs, his son. He's doing a thing called Yosemite, which is doing all kinds of with Jennifer Doudna, all these amazing cancer stuff in terms of making cancer nonlethal going forward. I mean there's there is a lot of stuff happening. It's just that what's happened is we

're we're all staring at Elon like we're staring at Trump that both dangerous people by the way as far as I'm concerned but an important to watch by the way. Not I'm not they're not clowns by any although they are clowns. But but we're not looking at the things they're making us look at them because they're addictive in that regard. And we can't get out of our rage against them. And we should have rage. But it's what are we going to do with the rage? And so there is all this really cool stuff ha

ppening. The other thing I would add is actually, in fact, a bunch of tech people are doing on the climate change. I mean, this hearkens back to the, you know, the the second chapter on the Gates story, which is Breakthrough Energy Ventures, a bunch of Nikola Fusion and other kinds of. Yeah, the fusion stuff is really interesting. There's all kinds. And what it is, again, the Paula of earlier thing is let's have ships for all of us, right? Not for just the billionaires, right? Let's do that and

let's put a lighthouse in and we can't you literally I'm sorry, again, be an adult. There's going to be problems. Look, but we have to mitigate and and focus on safety and data protection and privacy. The fact that we know the national privacy bill is is it's shameful in this country. And and all kinds of bills like Amy Klobuchar text me every day. She's like, once again, they took away the money I raised for antitrust fees that she passed. That's her only thing she could get passed. And they've

taken the money from the Justice Department like and I was like, this is where it goes. If we don't invest in that kind of stuff for safety, we're and where we get the American people and get their due, we're going to degenerate into a decision making process where billionaires get to make our decisions. And some of them are good, some are bad, but it's not a world I want to live in. So I'm going to paraphrase this question about which pioneers, pioneers did. Did you decide not to write about o

r hit the cutting room floor? What was the paraphrase? Kind of like what? Who did that leave out? And like, what was the decision to put it in versus leave out? Sometimes I just forgot about people like 30 years now, and I know I went through some of my stories. I'm like, I don't even remember writing them. Like, I was like, Did I write that? That was good, you know, like, or something like that. And I would. So I just I think I just interesting love the person who helped me was Nell Scovell, wh

o helped write her book Lean In, I think now is wonderful. I just was like, what struck me, what did I remember and what resonated with me. I wrote tons about Yahoo! And so there's not it's not in here. I didn't think it was important anymore, right? It was a thing of the past. I've written books about AOL, didn't want to repeat that stuff. I obviously think it's important, but I wanted to stick with the people who resonated most with me and that not that I covered the most because a lot some pe

ople I covered a lot other things. I, I just forgot them. I just forgot them and nothing was on the cutting room floor. I did not put a personal stuff that I thought was damaging. I just didn't it wasn't my business. It's not my business how people want to conduct their personal. You're trying to improve how the industry impacts humanity. The business I sent to the stock, to the business. I'm trying to think what I left out. Nothing was cutting room sports. What I. I spent a lot of time talking

to Nell, figuring out what I remembered, and then we shaped it around the themes. And the themes are about everything that can be digitized will be digitized. The lack of safety, lack of accountability, consequences, and where we need to go and sort of get back. And I'm not saying to a centrist place, but to a sane place. So this next question is in a vector. So one more thing. I'm sorry, the deleterious effect of wealth on many people, that was something that, you know, has it affected you? You

're the same person, but people are often the same people they are when they get wealthy. It's just their worst characteristics tend to come out. Roger McNamee wrote that. I actually disagree with that book. And what did you think. Roger, is that Roger has a point of view. I appreciate his point of view. I think he was sort of all in on the tech talk about someone who was such a jerk, not not just a cheerleader. He just really believed that's a guy who really believed And in the in the in the po

sitive effects of tech, he really did. And he's very enthusiastic. So we had an interview where they created the pre remember the pre and he put it out in front of me. This was the worst moment for him but he puts it out the pre which was one of the early phones and he goes look it has a mirror on the back for the ladies and I literally was like and I said, did you just say that? Kara Swisher Yeah. I said, I thought you were smart and I ripped into him. I was like, Ah, yes, who's the most vain p

eople on earth? Not the lady. And and this is a woman who has three sons. So you know, I see why he did it. I think he he some people, when they get the religion and realize the damage, I think you may not have liked it, but he's turned out rather right on a number of issues including self-esteem of girls and damage include. So I think directionally he's absolutely correct. He I think he was he had to make he's he felt bad because he was part of it. And so you often like, get that like emotion.

And so I don't I think directionally he's 100% correct in the things the the dangers he was talking about really did come true. So in that way, I would disagree with you on that book, but I do think he you know, a convert is the most intense of all people convert people who have shifted, you know. So the thing in the discourse that I think is underappreciated about you that I really actually think is important is to actually be somewhat more nuanced. Yes. You know, the like, for example, in the

whole convert point, like Roger wasn't that close to it. Right. Right. So a little bit of the look, I'm I was really close to it. I was the one who did this, who did this damage. And it's like, well, actually, in fact, you weren't that close to it, right? I Get it. But that's like inside baseball and Silicon Valley. So he wasn't as important as he wasn't in the room. Well, but it's a little bit of like I'm trying to still be important by saying, look how bad and evil it is. Yeah. Like, look, it'

s. Hagin tech people, narcissism. It's everybody's narcissistic. Everybody. No, actually, I'm an egomaniac. That's different. But he is. Everybody feels like they were the ones. But, you know, as a reporter, you'd go into a story and everyone was responsible. Even the stuff Walt and I created. There's a joke in the book where at Dow Jones, it literally was just Walt night. Let me just be clear. And they also spent zero money because it made money from the get go. I think they gave us the deposit

for the hotel and we paid them back a day later, essentially. So no money was spent by Dow Jones, but we had so many people go, I am the father of DHI or whatever, And I was like, You're the fucking distant cousin we don't invite to Thanksgiving. But that happens all the time. I was there. I was like, You had nothing to do with it. But, you know, I'm like, Sure, you were there. You weren't, you know? Well, success has. Yes, many, many parents failure or. Failure. That's right, Orphan. That's co

rrect. That's why I try not to fail. Yeah. So just. And we only have 2 minutes left. But you know, the the days your topic of I am tech industry. Yeah. Kara, what would you have to say about A.I.? I think you have to again, nuance, right? This is really where it is. And I think you have these techno optimists who are and I think, you know, this market will read them if you have to because it's really bad. Well, I think that's the blind. That's the blind techno optimist. But it's like you're the

Wizards are again says this is going to solve everything. I'm like so far it hasn't solved everything. I, I never believe so the techno optimist. School is really exhausting. I find them exhausting. And because it's not going to fix everything, the techno deceleration is can be just as problematic. I had one person call me saying if if we didn't, if I didn't stop Sam Altman, all humanity was going to die. And I was like, You want me to attack another gate person? No and no. But I was I was like,

I literally was like, that's Terminator. That's the plot of Terminator. And I'm not Linda Evans and I do not have a giant gun. So you're also not Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? I was like, he's not, you know, I mean, I'm sorry. It's just not true. There's all kinds of good things. And so I think the reason I think this book, which was very late actually, I was much later than I wanted to be writing it, because right now we are at a cusp. And so I'm trying to get people like pay attention because

it can go a good way like the Star Trek version of the universe, like I talked about. It can go a good way. If we put things in place, mistakes will be made along the road. But there is so much promise here, especially around cancer, around health care and all kinds of things that you can just see. You can just see them at the same time. I can see the problems like drones control, autocrats. It's all there and it's all there for them. And so I prefer people like you. I prefer people like Safe V

alley, like who are not they're not screaming at me from either side here. And it's just not true over here and you people you techno optimist needs to be quiet because of all the damage you've done you let's let's have some other people involved in the discussion and you know tech people are remarkable but so were the people who created lots of stuff Hollywood. Whatever name your industry, name your wonderful thing for humanity. And by the way, the real amazing people are the scientists who cre

ate all kinds of vaccines. That's the real come on, stop it. Like they're not magicians. They're regular people with huge amounts of flaws. And that's what I was trying to put. These are do not worship these people. They're false idols and at the same time don't hate them. They're also some of them are trying. Some of them they're just bad people. Some of them are good people and have a little more presence of mind, understand the difference kind of stuff. And so that's what I was trying to do,

pretty much. So let's give a hand to the amazing Kara Swisher. Thank you to me. And let me just say let me let. Me just say this about read. There's a chapter of in the book called People I Like, which is a small chapter, and Reed is one of them. And I have to say he's always like an adult does. He's been willing to debate. We have disagreed on. I remember that first meeting. We were like, No, you're wrong. Yes. LinkedIn was LinkedIn. Yes. He's willing to debate, disagree. Listen, I had a lot of

problems with him, with the teal stuff with him. And but he was he stuck to his guns, and I have to say, has always tried to do the right thing and been thoughtful about it. And that is extraordinarily rare. It really is. And so this is the kind of people you need to worship a tech person and please. please. This this is an inspirational figure. It's someone who's done a lot of great things. He's contributed more than he's taken. And You know, if you want to, like, love someone who, you know, l

ike the worship villain or something like that, this is the anti one. This is the anti version of that. And while he is a tech bro. I don't know. Tech I don't know about bro. Okay. You're not a brother. I would say you're a less bro is what I call that. Yes. Okay. So Les, bro, and we should appreciate. It from you. I might actually. Come and get you a t shirt. Yes, that's great. Anyway, you should appreciate people like him and encourage that at same time. Don't stroke his ego. You know. Too lat

e to. Late. He does have a responsibility. He's been made very wealthy and very powerful through tech. He owes it back to the world that he that what he's been given to. And so. Our response. Yes, absolutely. So, anyway, he's terrific. And thank you for doing. Thank you so. I want to read