Keeping Our Eyes on the Pi's, the Raspberry Pi 5 | Destination Linux

Welcome to episode number 341 of Destination Linux, your favorite video podcast. My name is Ryan. I'm Jill. And I'm Michael. And on this week's episode, we're gonna be talking about Linux kernel maintenance and support policies that are changing. How is this going to affect you? Well, it's doomsday level folks. It's doomsday level. And you gotta listen to the whole episode so you know how doomsday this is. Then we're gonna be talking about something that's not doomsday. In fact, it's coming to s

ave the day. I think I'm super pumped about this. The Raspberry Pi 5 has just been announced. This is big news. This is bigly, it's bigly, it's huge. I know, it's going to be awesome. So we're gonna talk about that. I'm very excited to get into that. And now we're gonna get the show on the road towards destination Linux. Our feedback this week comes from Rye, not Ryan, Rye. And they say, at what point are we going to say that KDE running on Fedora is the best setup for everyday users? I've used

a gang of DEs and I think we should focus on the most versatile and K wins. This also goes on to say, I love you guys, especially Jill. Why especially Jill? First of all, why is it? Why do most emails end with love you, especially Jill? Like why? Is that a thing our communities come up with behind the scenes? Are they all playing like, Hey, if you write in the deal, make sure you say especially Jill. We got a message on Mastodon that was like very, uh, very positive towards the show and towards

us. And then it said especially Jill. And then we were like, okay, sure. But, well, actually I'll let them know that Jill's also our favorite host as well. Yes, exactly. You know, how can you argue with that? She's my favorite. So, first of all, Rye, you knew exactly what you were doing with this email. I'm on to you. You're not gonna fall for your little game. I know, and you should know as well, you never feed Michael KDE food after midnight. You just don't do it. Because what happens is he tu

rns into a gremlin, little KDE gremlin, a Kremlin, Kremlin, Kremlin. He gets on this soapbox and he won't get off of it. He won't get off of it. And he's going to talk about KDE for the rest of the show. And you knew what you were doing with that. That's why when he said K wins, there was a little emoji there with the laughing, smiling face there. So yeah, I'm on to you. But I do think Fedora is a fantastic distro. I do think Fedora and KDE is a fantastic combination. I would, however, if you we

re being serious in your comment, not necessarily say it's for everybody, because I think the best advice the community has kind of come up with when it comes to what distro should you use, even beginner distro, is like, it depends on the user, right? What are they doing with their computer? And then you can match kind of the perfect setup for them. I think when you look at documentation and other things, you could make the case that Kubuntu, if you're a big KDE fan, would be a great choice beca

use Kubuntu just has a lot of documentation and support that's already out there that you can search on. Fedora does too, but I think Kubuntu probably has more from a user standpoint. But it is a fire option, not taking away from there. And especially in certain use cases, when it comes to what hardware and stuff that they're using, Fedora tends to be on a later kernel with newer Mesa drivers and things like that. So in those cases, absolutely, Fedora is an awesome choice. So there you go. Jill

what do you think? Thank you so much Rye. I too think that KDE is one of the best DEs out there and I love absolutely love using it on my Steam Deck. Also the Fedora KDE Plasma Spin is amazing and extremely stable. stable. And speaking of use cases, I've had mostly when I was teaching, I taught for 30 years, computer animation and motion graphics, and mostly I would have the students go on Ubuntu and specifically Ubuntu Studio. But in some cases, I would have them use Fedora and the KDE spin of

Fedora because it is stable and it's RPM based, so it runs the likes of Maya and a lot of the other proprietary animation software much easier. So in some cases, some of my beginning students, I've started them on Fedora KDE. There's just a lot of good distros and desktops and now we can just move on to the next topic. Well actually I was about to just make Ryan's brain explode by saying that y'all covered everything. You talked about how KDE Plasma is a great DE, one of the best. Yeah. Talked a

bout how Fedora is a stable and great distribution. It has some things that are great for everyday users. It also has some things that you would need to do some prerequisites that would make it better if you had those set up. So maybe it's not for. beginner, unless you have like a guide that it goes with it. So y'all said everything. So I'm just going to leave it at that and not go on to any rant on KTE and how it's amazing. I'm just going to just say, well done, and we're going to move on. And

also, I want to bring back this 90s trend because a lot of trends from the 90s are coming back for some reason. That's awesome. And I'm going to say, psych, let's talk about KTE for an hour. We were almost there. We almost escaped. The KDE gremlin emerges. Yes, here we go. But seriously though, KDE is fantastic. I got a bunch of videos on my channel. We'll link in the show notes for like tips you can do with KDE if you're not familiar with it. But I do think Fedora KDE is a fantastic mix. Well,

like I said, there are some things that you, if you had a guide to fix a few things, it's not even a lot, but they're not like intuitive things to fix. You have to run some commands to add some repos, add some effects and like some codecs and stuff like that. Whereas with Kubuntu, you have the Ubuntu base that's a little bit easier to get started with. There are some things you still need to do, but there's fewer things. So I would say that beginner everyday user, maybe Kubuntu more so than KDE

Fedora. But I will say that Fedora KDE is fantastic, especially if you have a hardware that needs newer kernels and that sort of stuff, then absolutely Fedora is the easier choice because they'll update faster. and you'll get the kernel updates in between rather than having to wait every six months and stuff like that. So there are different benefits for both of those. And the whole depending on what the user needs is a cop-out answer. And also the correct answer. Yeah, well, reality is the best

distro you can use right now is BlendOS, which combines all the distros into one distro. Unless you're a beginner to Linux and then it's too complicated. You know what? Take some time to learn it. It depends on the distro to be superior. In fact, I'm changing my answer to whoever the user is. It doesn't matter who the user is. Never heard of Linux? BlendOS. Best at Linux? BlendOS. BlendOS. BlendOS is the answer. And I'll follow that up with asterisks about the fact you'd have to learn how arch

works a little bit. And then you'll also have to learn the difference between what a container is and what a mutable system is. And then you have to learn how to flat pack is very quickly and all all these different pieces. So that maybe is maybe Ryan's not the best one to answer this question now. Time to go to school folks and use blend OS. That's what I'm saying. All right. So Gentoo and Linux from Scratch are also good options based on Ryan's logic. Those are great options, yeah. For beginne

rs, maybe not, but in general, yes. Linux from Scratch. You will learn a lot from those. Absolutely. I've still never done Linux from Scratch. Oh, it's fun, yeah. I've done Gentoo though, but not Linux from Scratch. So there are certain types of people who hear Linux from Scratch, And some of them would say, that was fun, like Jill did. And there's other people would say, that was like torturing myself, like I would. For me, it was a year's journey, but I learned Linux really well doing that. An

d this is, you know, in the early years of Linux. Only joking, I had fun compiling for a year. What's funny about that is that people say that Arch is hard. It is for beginners. And people say that Gentoo is hard and it's harder than Arch. And then LFS is its own beast. Its own beast, yes. Completely different situation because with Gentoo, you can get faster and faster because some people can get arch done in a couple hours. Gentoo, you could get in a day or so. And then with, if you get really

, really good at Linux from Scratch. A week, maybe, if you're lucky. Either we're gonna get the comment that somebody did it in a day, and it would show, you know, on the press, like, you know. Well, we'll have to ask them, like, okay, give us details. Did you have a GUI, or did you just get to the terminal? Yeah, or script or something. Did it just technically post and you counted it? You know, some people collect Pokemon cards, others collect baseball cards. Sure. I even, and I've never told p

eople this before, have a little bit of a collection of UFC trading cards. Hmm, nice. I didn't even know those existed. Yeah, they're out there. And collections are vast as people's interests. You can collect things for nearly every hobby out there. However, Michael on this show has the strangest hobby of all. I have many hobbies and many collections. What are you talking about? This one's very weird. You collect domain names. You collect domain names like nobody I've ever seen in my life. That'

s just ridiculous. That's true. That's ridiculous. I only have about 70. What's? 70 hundred, like my kids would say, they're like, I want 70 hundred of this because that's what it's not just 70. Like Pokemon, Michael has to collect them all literally. And I mean this, any discussion we have with Michael about a new business thing always ends with, we should buy a domain for that. That's Michael's like input of, let's buy a domain for that. He wants the.com, the.net, the.biz, the.community. He wa

nts them all. He wants to collect them all because like they're going out of style. Okay, that's a bit excessive. I do have a lot of domains and those conversations have happened, but .biz? Really? That's the one that got you? The one you're like, I don't collect those. I have three. Those are for plebs. I still have three. Pleb collectors are the .biz. So, as you can imagine, this gets quite expensive for us, but thankfully I was able to find a solution for that and that's where Namecheap comes

in Namecheap is a place where, as you guessed by their name, you can buy domains for cheap. Therefore, Namecheap. Shee-hence. Yeah, and you can also host sites and they have other services there as well. So if you want to be like Michael and collect domain names or you're actually starting a business and just need one, I suggest going to Namecheap. This is where we get ours. And we have a link in the show notes where you can start your collection and support our show all at the same time. You c

an do both at the same time. In fact, they could probably go to a really clever URL that you probably bought, Michael. I got a domain for this, Ryan. Yes, you do. What's that domain, Michael? DestinationLinux.net slash Namecheap. See, the .net was a thing, but I wish it was .biz now, because then I've been like, oh, you did buy .biz. So .net, DestinationLinux. I could add to my collection, Ryan. What about .tv? Well, don't encourage him, Jill. So click that link and see if you can out-collect Mi

chael. There's some really depressing news here, Michael. It's doomsday level news. What's that? Oh. But the Linux kernel support models changing, Michael. Oh, I see. Okay. I see where you're going with that. What happened? Well, so what happened is, well, actually this week at the open source summit in Europe, the European version, there were some changes that were announced related to the model for the LTS, these long-term support, for those who don't know what LTS stands for, where it will go

from a six years of support down to just two years. Jonathan Corbett, a Linux kernel developer, made this announcement stating that Not many people were using or taking advantage of these six years of support. And the biggest issue is that it's a pain to maintain for six years because the Linux kernel moves every six weeks and it is constantly changing with tons of different updates every single release. So keeping a six years maintenance is a giant task. So my first reaction to this is, yeah,

and? I mean, it's not like a huge deal to most people. You're not really building this up into a doomsday level problem. Well, because I disagree with your assessment of doomsday. That's why. You're allowed to be wrong. Okay, so why is it doomsday, Ryan? Well, let me tell you. First of all, Jonathan, don't assume that many people weren't taking advantage of it because I also was not taking advantage of it and you're probably right. Yeah, exactly. for the standard user, honestly, this means nothi

ng for the standard user. I would be surprised if anybody's really impacted by this. If you can think of something, because I couldn't, then let us know in the comments. But really, the big key there is not many people were using it. So if it was so important, then there would be a ton of people probably taking advantage of it. Does impact companies differently though, because when you're looking at things like that, what I view this as being made for, and maybe I was mistaken because I wasn't t

here when they first announced this, or it wasn't something that popped on my radar might have been there, but it wasn't on my radar when they announced the six years is the IoT devices and also potentially Android phone. So IoT devices have, you know, anywhere from a two to four year kind of R&D development cycle. So while they're building this thing out, this is obviously having a six year kernel is very advantageous for them from an update standpoint, as you're sending out for testing, as you

're adding additional functionality to the devices and those types of things. So I think a lot of people chose Linux to utilize for their IoT devices and other things because of the fact that it had this LTS at a very long support cycle. However, these are companies. So, one of the issues is maintaining it, and if they want to pay for it to be maintained longer, or hire developers to maintain it longer, they probably should, because it impacts companies the most there. And IoT devices are also k

nown for the fact that it's very difficult, in some cases impossible, for you to go in and update the firmware and kernel and things in these. It's not because this is something that is a problem for IoT companies or IoT devices because it inherently is a thing that they have so much R&D that they have to do. It's because once they release it, they're done and don't bother to, like, there are some IoT devices that will do updates. And then there are some that just pretend that it's, oh, it's a s

imple product, we're done, we don't need to touch it anymore. But that's not how it works when you're using computers, especially when your computer is. designed to be on the Internet at all times, it kind of is important to do updates. And that's why I think that not only is this a good thing, it's kind of like a good kick in the face to the IoT companies that don't update because maybe now they'll either not release the product or they'll maybe update. It also isn't that big of an issue in the

first place because the difference between the LTS kernels, there's a thing that the Linux kernel has where they insist on never breaking user space. So, with the IoT devices, they're not doing an insane amount of stuff. It should be possible to go from LTS two years to two years, and it still work with whatever they're doing, because they're not doing a super complicated, typically, with an IoT device. So, I don't think it's that big a deal even for them, too. I think it's not a big deal to pu

t this on their shoulders, because it's not a Linux maintainer and Linux kernel developer fault. However, I think you put way too much faith in companies that they won't just release this now with an LTS kernel that's four years out of date and no security patches. I'm not putting the faith, it's just a hope. That's a hope. I know they will do it, but that's just a hope they don't. But also- We'll just leave it non-secured. It doesn't affect hardly anything, really. It doesn't affect users. It r

eally doesn't even affect distros because distros, most of them that are having an LTS option have a longer lifespan anyway than the six years. So for example, like Ubuntu has the long-term support versions, but it also has like an enterprise support management system where you have five years for LTS, but then the ESM is 10 years. So they're already doing more than what the kernel was offering in the first place. And the same thing with Red Hat and SUSE, because they offer like a five-year thin

g or a 10-year thing, depending on which version and branch you're talking about. So these are much longer than the kernel itself anyway, so it doesn't affect them either. So only people it really affects are the people who are not wanting to do updates. And in those cases, I would say... You're one of those people who don't update. That's not true, because an LTS is every two years, and I update once every two years. All good points, Michael and Ryan. In fact, like Michael said, you know, My fi

rst reaction to this was that it is really no big deal, especially for the average Linux user. But Ryan is right. It's all about the businesses. And it's all about the Benjamin. Businesses, Michael, not Benjamin. Oh, you know, like Pentiums, all about Pentiums. For businesses that do IoT, industrial, and especially aerospace, which needs more time for R&D to upgrade their systems that need to be hardened for the work environments. And also, another point is, particularly with aerospace, They're

using older hardware. So they need to keep the kernels older. Well, the thing is, I don't think that the aerospace stuff is, the industrial stuff might be related, but I also think those companies could afford to help maintain it if they need it. But the aerospace is different because when they talk about introducing new hardware or new kernels or whatever, it's usually 10 to 15 years anyway, so the LTS support of six years really didn't even apply in the first place. They're using older kernels

anyway. It's super old. Yeah. The stuff that's in the International Space Station is from the 90s in some cases. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, before the shuttles, they stopped the shuttle program, they were just upgraded to 486s. Man, that's some speed demons right there. But you would agree, Jill, instead of buying the Golden Hammer, you go and you spend some of that money on some maintainers there, right? To help maintain this. I mean, one of the issues that Corbett goes on to mention that develo

pers are burning out. So the people who have to test this code on all of this various hardware for six years, and there's so many things for them to test. And lots of different versions to test as well. Yes, lots of different versions to test as well in there. And this is a big deal, right? Because Because we need them to be testing, especially in my case, this is me being selfish here. Like I want them testing for the latest and greatest hardware and all that type of stuff. Oh yeah. So that Lin

ux continues to propel forward. taking, you know, we already have 2000 programmers for the kernel. We have 200 new developers on the latest release in there, so we've got a lot of momentum when it comes to the kernel and all the cool things that they're releasing, but I want that stuff to be solid when it's releasing, right? So I want the maintainers and stuff and preferably to be working on that, but Jill, out of everyone here, really, me and Michael should shut up because you actually have all

of these antique computers and older systems and all of this stuff, and the question is, does this impact you? No, because again, they are on older distros and older kernels. I can upgrade some of them to newer kernels, but most of them I can't. I haven't been able to because they discontinued support for i386 and so on. But you don't have a problem with that because you're using them for the joy of having the retrocomputer. Exactly. So as long as you're able to use it in any way, that's all th

at matters, right? Yeah, that's all that matters. I'm not using them to render animation anymore like I used to years ago. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, because those kernels are still around, it's not like they just disappear from the universe. Yeah. The universe gets rewritten. And also some distros still support versions for those kinds of things, you know. Yeah, like Debian, that's one of the reasons why it's one of my favorite, favorite distros because it will actually support hardware that the ker

nel doesn't. One more thought here. There was a big rumor going around, still out there, that Google's going to switch away from utilizing Linux in there as kind of a base for their kernel and they were going to use, I don't remember what it was called. Fuchsia. Fuchsia. That's it. We're going to use Fuchsia. And they ended up putting Fuchsia in one of their home assistant devices, Google Home or something like that, whatever it's called, that I would never put in my home anyways. But they put i

t in one of those things and everyone was like, that's it, that's the end of Linux and Android and all of that, and we'll no longer be able to say, hey, Linux runs most of the smartphones out there. Of course, that hasn't happened, but it does make you wonder, you know, there is a long R&D factor here with Android. and new Android devices and these Android devices are based on LTS. Does this impact Google's decision to keep utilizing Android or are they going to, you know, accelerate using Fuchs

ia because of this lack of six years of support might be something they relied on. So does this hurt us in the smartphone market was something that popped in my mind as a potential. Yeah, I don't think so because the fuchsia thing was announced while there was a six-year support, but also Android has been around for so long much longer than the six-year amount was because the six years hasn't been around for that long There are kernels that are being maintained for six years now, but that's abou

t to end for some of them I don't think before that there was anything more than two to three years or four years at the most So, it's gone up and down in terms of how long the support was offered. But in the very early stages when Android was first made, that wasn't even really an option. So, for a long time, I don't think it matters. But also, they can use the LTS kernel for their own system, but they also tweak the kernel anyway. Yeah, they customize it. I don't think it makes that much diffe

rence to them regardless. I think they use the LTS kernel just so they don't have to do the customization more than once every two years or something like that. Yeah, and it seems like the whole hype around fuchsias kind of died down a bit. I just haven't seen a lot of activity on it. Although there's obviously a huge need for an alternative operating system because based on Apple 15 and as boring as it is, as boring as all the Android devices are out there, like this is the time for someone to

strike. I've been saying that for like three years, by the way. But EOS, if you want to check out the latest video I have, if you want to check check out EOS, an alternative Android operating system on the Fairphone 4, you kind of might get a glimpse of the future, I feel like. I feel like I got a glimpse of the future there. It was pretty cool. Hopefully that is the future. Yeah. Yes, we'll have a link in the show notes for the unboxing and first impressions that Ryan had. Yeah, it was amazing.

Yeah, now here's my only, my last point. I said the last point was my last point, but this is really, really, really, truly my last point, okay? Also earlier, you said that we, me and you should both shut up, and you're now talking more. Well, listen, this is my last point. So here's my last point. My last point is this. Why have this rollout? Maintainers for a kernel have always been a luxury item, right, like you want as many maintainers, checking the code, doing bug reports, all that stuff.

It's a huge, amazing option that we have of volunteers. So why roll out six years in the first place to roll it back? It's so easy to add new features to something. So my, I guess my only thing, okay, it's not a doomsday issue. I can't see how it's really a big issue at all. But why change to six years and then go, ah, you know, actually maintainers are being burned out. We don't like anyway, so let's roll it back. And just, why do it? It's kind of a GNOME move. I think it's because there was ma

intainers at the time that were willing to do it, and now they don't want to do it. But I also think that's fine because if they change their mind, then because maintaining a kernel that moves constantly, even for two years, is still a massive amount of work. So tripling that is even more crazy in terms of the amount of work. To begin with, that's what I'm saying. Don't give it and take it away. When they first announced it, it was because companies were willing to do some kind of support with r

esources and things like that. I don't remember which companies, but there was a coalition that were willing to do it because they wanted that to happen. So the team was agreed to do it. And it seems like some, maybe the resources are gone, maybe the interest of it, or they just showed that people weren't really using it. Because if you go back to, if you look at the list of what main, like what kernels are being maintained for the six year thing, I'm not sure exactly which exact version, but it

was 4.16 or something like that. That's still usable. And no one uses that. Like even enterprise people, enterprise companies don't use that kernel. Because even if they have a 10-year support, they're still bumping the kernel. No one we know of. Okay. No one in the sense of, I'm confident saying 99.6% do not use it. Okay. That helps. 99.6%. percent. Jill, what is your thought on that? Yeah, so I know that change was made quite a while ago And that was actually in a time where the cadence of ne

w hardware was slower. So that could be one of the reasons why. Yeah, because basically when I joined Linux and started whining about the support of hardware in the Linux kernel, I ruined this. So this is single handedly my fault. Yeah, I don't think so, because I think the kernel was still trying to do it. This was just more of like keeping the old hardware usable. I think what this is, this is more of like them doing it because of all the constant talk about you saying that Linux works on new

hardware. We need to put it on new hardware. Why do the distros not work on new hardware? All of that is why they're doing it because they're focusing on the new hardware rather than the older hardware. So- You're welcome people. Yeah, yeah. I ended the six years of support. It's now two. You helped us progress, Ryan. Yes, that's it. I've moved you all forward whether you want to or not. This episode of Destination Linux is sponsored by LinBit. Linbit has been keeping digital businesses running

for over 20 years. They're the makers of open source products like DRBD, which is high availability software that has been part of the Linux kernel since 2010, and LinStore, industry-leading open source software-defined storage. Linbit has an active presence in the open source community and they collaborate with the community to help identify and build new features. Linbit provides enterprise-grade software that runs on a variety of platforms and OSs without vendor lock-in. What that means is, i

s that you could choose the software on any platform, including specific hardware that you want to use, or just off the shelf hardware that you get and connect it. All of this stuff can be interchanged really easily. And with DRBD and LinStore, you can have high-speed replicated block storage in almost any configuration. Whether it's Kubernetes, Apache Cloud, or Open Nebula, there's even DRBD proxy for long distance replication. LinBit is run by its founders to this day, and all of its engineers

and developers are in-house with offices in Europe and North America, which allows them to have global 24 seven support to compliment their enterprise offerings. Visit linbit.com to learn more about the people behind Linbit and the awesome software for block storage, duplication, and more. All right, I'm really going to move you forward here with this next thing that I'm going to talk about, because this had me so excited. I called Michael immediately when I heard the announcement and he goes,

I know, dummy, look at the show notes. That was literally his response. I'm not exaggerating. That's not the exact words I said, but close. And I did mention, yeah, I sent you the message like seven hours ago. Yeah. So I'm very excited about this Raspberry Pi. We've talked about it on the show, how important I think they are to the growth of Linux, the acceptance of Linux, the, you know, the whole idea of people thinking like, well, if you're not paying for something, then it can't be that good.

Right. And a business can't rely on it. And all of these type of things that you hear out there that are, of course, factually wrong. But Raspberry Pi was one of those that kind of brought Linux to everybody, every hobbyist out there, businesses out there. I know telecom companies that utilize these in their centers and things to run certain operations like Raspberry Pi has become a part of our culture. It's as much of a part of American culture as apple pie. Yeah. See what I did there? It is.

Apple pie reference. That was pretty good. I'll pat myself on the back later. So coming at the end of October is a Raspberry Pi 5. And Michael, I remember in our Raspberry Pi episode where we were talking about how important Raspberry Pi is to Linux and open source, that you mentioned, hey, I think soon they'll be coming out with the Raspberry Pi 5 and boom. I predicted it. You did. In fact, I predicted it in our 2023 predictions episode. But Michael. So, I mean, people can go, huh? Michael, we

didn't do a predictions episode for this year. But they didn't know that. Why did you have to spoil it? Okay, so maybe I didn't predict it. I did mention that it would be great, the Pi 5 would be coming out and I would hope it was coming out soon. Yeah. I didn't technically predict it, so fine, Jill, if you want to be that way. Why didn't we do a prediction episode? I don't know. I know we didn't, we missed it. I don't know why, but yeah, we missed it. Good job, Michael. You're the one who choos

es what we talk about, usually. Shut up. Yeah. Talk about the Raspberry Pi. It's not about you, Michael. It's about the Raspberry Pi. Oh, okay, I see, I see. Okay, I understand. So let's talk about the Raspberry Pi because it is coming out very soon with the five version and just $60 would get you the four gigabyte version. $80 would get you the eight gigabyte version. And they talked about the improvements to the platform. And they say that virtually every aspect of it has been upgraded. In fac

t, they're saying that it is twice as fast as the Raspberry Pi 4, which was already very impressive for the single board computer that it is. Now it's twice as fast as that. I can't wait to play with it. It is still the size of a credit card. I mean, that's the amazing thing. There are now. faster boards out there that are made by other companies. You got Orange Pi, I think it's Rockchip, makes some more fast boards, better processors, those type of things. But it's the fact that the Raspberry P

i's form factor has been integrated into everything from all the hobbies, Legos, all these different things, right? You've got all these different hats and devices and everything Raspberry Pi fits in. And it's so small and nimble. And a lot of those other boards are much bigger. There's some coming out now that are a little smaller. But they were able to keep that form factor and then double the power, which I think is very impressive. I think it's the exact same form factor as last time, isn't

it? No, it's a little different. Form factor as far as the size of it, yes. But obviously, some pins and things have moved around in some of the Ohio ports. Well, I mean, will the cases still be compatible or do you need to change the case? No, no, you do have to upgrade. Get a new case, yep. You will need to get a new case in there. And so you've got a 2.4 gigahertz quad-core, 64-bit ARM Cortex-A76 CPU. What's that mean? It's faster, okay? Just know it's faster. And then you also get a new GPU

in this, which is quite an impressive GPU. It's the VideoCore 7 GPU, which supports OpenGL ES 3.1. Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, it's not the 7, it's the VII. Oh, oh, thanks, Michael. You're welcome, you're welcome. I was gonna sound silly there, but you're right. It does say VII, you know? What does the V stand for, Michael? Come on, Michael. You can do it. Oh my gosh. So what does the new GPU allow you to do? Well, it works with H.265 4K at 60 frames per second, or you can drive two 4K monitors. And in so

me of the video that I've seen of the demonstrations, it can drive them without stuttering and stuff. Cause Raspberry Pi 4 technically could drive some 4K video and things, but it was pretty sloppy in certain instances. It would kind of be choppy. Sloppy is not the right word, choppy in certain instances. And- This is claiming 4K 60, in fact. Exactly, it's 60. So they've kind of doubled there. And so that new GPU, I think, is pretty cool. But there's so much more, there's so much more to talk ab

out than just that. Jill, before I go on, because I'll never shut up, what are you excited about about this? That's true, people, he doesn't shut up, ever. It's so simple. We finally get a power button on the Raspberry Pi. Oh my gosh. That is so important. That is so nice. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. It's on the very bottom of the list of what they're talking about, but it is such a thing that people have been begging for for years. Not to mention, for importance in the industry, whether it's robo

tics or IoT, is if you do a quick shutdown, it can corrupt the hard drive on the Pi, so the SD card, and this will help prevent that. Yeah, no, this is a really important feature too, because sometimes I'm setting things up and I'm really not ready for it to power on. But yeah, you accidentally plug it in and yes, you plug it in and it starts booting and it's like, I don't even have the operating system in there, you know, whatever. It's just one of those things that's annoying. So it's simple a

nd small, but to me, it's a huge improvement. Yeah. And also two USB 3.0 holes. Yes, absolutely. And those are supporting... Holes, of course, whenever you're at Calum, holes. Just holes. Those are supporting five gigabits per second, which is pretty impressive too. So not slow. And you still get your 40 pin GPIO header, because I know there's people out there like, yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the headers? It's still there? Has that changed? That's still there. It's very important for a lot of

people. Thank you. Thank you for explaining. I was worried about that because that's, I deal with those things never, but... So it's this line of pins, Michael, allow you to do all the accessories and basically- I know what they do. Yeah, okay. I just never use them. Just checking. Because that's how you hook up the hats. Yeah. Good job, Michael. It is. I'm impressed. And, oh, oh, Michael and Ryan, we've got PCIe 2.0 interface. Speaking of hats. For fast peripherals. Nice. So this is magnificent

. There's all kinds of cool things you can do by throwing a PCIe slot on there, right? Number one, think about an external graphics card. Now, there's people already out there trying it, which means it will happen, because this is Raspberry Pi, and there's so many geeks out there who are going to make this work, and there's some driver issues and things with ARM. If it is technically possible, it will happen. It is possible. It is possible with this PCIe. But you can also do things like utilize

multiple NVMe drives for servers, you know, especially with the 10 gigabyte network, you know, capabilities it has, all the AI things you can do when you have some external potential for graphics cards and things that you're connecting to, all the hats. So when you talk about hats being on the GPIO, you can actually do some hats now direct into the PCIe. So this unlocks some new capabilities for hats as well that you can use. And so maybe an external GPU on a Raspberry Pi, you will be really coo

king some amazing gaming or AI or other machine learning functionalities and things you could do with this, which would be pretty cool. And they have a new Southbridge chip too, their own chip called the RP-1 chip. And this is gonna control the input output functioning specifically. So you're gonna have two USB three controllers with five gigabytes of bandwidth and two USB two controllers in there as well. So a lot faster in your peripheral side and your input output functionality being controll

ed by its own chip. So these are major enhancements to this little device making it. Absolutely something I have to have. In fact, I've pre-ordered two. Yay! Yes. And we got Bluetooth 5.0. As well with Bluetooth low energy support. And you kind of want to use the Bluetooth because it doesn't have your speaker 3.5 millimeter it didn't look like. So sound is now going to be pretty much just Bluetooth. Bluetooth or HDMI. HDMI, correct. Yeah, I guess you can do it through the HDMI. So those are real

ly your only two choices there. So they did take it away from us there a little bit, but that's That's okay, because they give us so much more here on this little credit card. You got to figure out, they got to remove something to put all this cool stuff on there. So I don't know. I'm very excited about this. I mean, there's a bajillion things you can do with the Raspberry Pi. You can have it be your home assistant. It can control your entire home assistant setup. You could utilize it for roboti

cs. You know, Wendy utilizes it a lot for competitions and STEM learning and all of that, those things with kids and learning. So if you're not, if you have not picked up a Raspberry Pi yet, go grab a five now because it's going to sell out. I promise you, it's going to sell out. It's probably going to sell out much faster than you think. Yeah. Because this has been Raspberry Pi's biggest issue. Like if it hasn't already sold out, really. It might be by the time we're recording this because that

's their biggest problem is supply chain. And honestly, Raspberry Pi is in a bad spot with that. However, I understand they've got some good partnerships with Sony here. They kind of got things back in order. But I say bad position because there's a lot of competition to kind of catch up really fast with them. And competition is always a good thing too. So, you know, I think that's good to have that out there. But I want Raspberry Pi to be successful. They're kind of one of the first to really m

ake this popular and they deserve a lot of success with this. So I'm very excited to get my hands on Raspberry Pi. Yeah, it's been the Raspberry Pi 4 came out in the summer of 2019, just before the pandemic. And that's been our last major release with the exception of the Raspberry Pi 400, which which I have. Yeah, and also getting a Raspberry Pi 4 was a very difficult thing to do. So much so, I never got a chance to get one. Oh, okay. So, I am very much looking forward to 5. Especially that elu

sive eight gigabytes of RAM one. So, yeah. That's the one I wanted. That was very difficult to get. Unless you wanted to pay an exorbitant amount of like the squatter money. Like, no thank you. Yeah, those people, those terrible human beings out there that like to go buy stuff that they don't plan on using so the rest of us who actually want to use it can't because you're a monster and a moron and I dislike you immensely. Okay, Michael and Ryan, so now we have a new and more powerful Raspberry P

i 5 coming. Just in time for creating a new private Raspberry Pi server to run Valve's latest upgrade, Counter-Strike 2. Yes. So the Pi can run the server for the game. Okay. You're going to have to, what? Yeah. So, so many years ago, I actually helped with the Counter-Strike server on a Raspberry Pi. And we got up to 15 people being able to use Counter-Strike running from a Raspberry Pi. Oh, wow. So. So I knew it could run the server. I know it can play CSGO on some super low settings, At least

people have hacked certain games like Half-Life, I think, but it's very, very choppy. But the server, 15 players, and it was running pretty well. Yeah, it was running very well. It's amazing what you can do with Raspberry Pi. Yeah. In fact, originally we had tried with just five players, and it was running so well, we kept increasing the number of players that could play on it. And we got up to 15 simultaneous players using it. So Counter-Strike 2. Now Counter-Strike 1, I remember probably one

of the times I've laughed the hardest, in a gaming was playing Counter-Strike 1 with Michael in that new mode they had where you were. What was it called? Battleground. OK, first of all, that was not Counter-Strike 1. Counter-Strike 1 was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. That's like 20 years ago. CSGO is what we're talking about. There was some I can't remember what it was called, but it was like a mission system. And you had like a basic. Oh, are you talking about the mission system? Are you talkin

g about? Yeah. Where we kept grenading each other and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember what it was called, but it was some kind of like cooperation, operation mission thing. We are not going to co-op. And we played this game, and we should have streamed the whole time. We should have streamed it, but we didn't. But we played this game, and it was so much fun because of how bad we are at this game. It was hilarious. My sides hurt. I remember watching you guys play it. We tried to do this missi

on system. We played many times on stream the game, And it's also fun just to watch us play the game that we couldn't do anyway. But this mission system, we tried so many times. I don't remember if it was like 20, 30, it was somewhere around there. And we just could not get it done. And it was hilarious because we don't even know why we couldn't get it done or whatever, but we would try different configurations, it just never worked. So then I had a sneaky idea. I'll get my friend who's good at

Counter-Strike or first-person shooters, and we'll go through that mission, and then he'll tell me what to do, and then I will play again with Ryan, and blow his mind of like, oh, look how I fixed it, and it's so good. And that's what happened, and then we got done, and we finished the mission, and he said, I thank you, Ryan, if I remember correctly, you said, so how did you cheat, Michael? Yeah, exactly, of course. Because he knew how to duck in certain areas and stuff. I'm like, you don't know

this, because literally when we played before, he was accidentally dropping grenades in the boat we were supposed to use to get across the water. So now all of a sudden he was all the same. Okay, I dropped a grenade one time accidentally and then for the next three, four rounds, Ryan and I would just throw grenades at each other. That's pretty funny. Do you know when I played it, I am not good at first person shooters only because I don't have good vision. So it's a little. We're not good at fi

rst person shooters because we don't have coordination. Yeah. Or. Or skill. Reflexes. So my tactic, and I've actually won a few games doing this. was kind of hiding, and then when someone comes close to me, you know, shooting them through a window. I mean, it does work. It was my technique. Oh, you're a little sneaky. I had to be sneaky. Yeah, that's stealth mode. I think that's totally. Guerrilla warfare. That's definitely a Valet's style of playing those games. And I actually won a few of the

games because of that. So, I had. Feels like Rambo. I had to. She drops slowly down from the tree, and then goes back up into hiding. Yeah, you know, I was playing with young people that had good vision. So I'm like, okay, well, I got to find a new tactic. And it worked, I actually won a few games. Nice. Listen, I love that at my age, I can't beat my son anymore at any of these games, so you have to outsmart him. That's your only option. You're not faster, you're not gonna be more coordinated, s

o you just gotta be smarter. So I haven't seen this, so they, for those who don't know, Ryan and his kid play in different rooms in the house. And I suspect it's because his kid knows that Ryan will reach over and unplug the controller. Yeah. Totally true. Yes, I will do whatever it takes to win cheating definitely a part of that So I'm very excited about this CS go steam has been a huge supporter of Linux Obviously with the steam deck and all these things This has been a masterfully popular gam

e some of the best gaming tournaments out there. You can watch your CS go tournaments So what are some of the best and there's a lot of changes, but what are some of the top changes in your mind Jill for? To definitely physically based rendering, ray tracing, anti-aliasing better, smoke. And it's just overall, oh, the textures were all upgraded, you know, the game just looks absolutely beautiful. And I was playing it this afternoon and I noticed also that the mouse, when playing the game, is mor

e responsive. And Valve actually put a lot of work in the mouse movement being as low latency and accurate as possible in this game. They stepped it up, way up. And I noticed how quickly everything moved. That's awesome. Hey. Now, I noticed that a lot of new games, like, there's another Modern Warfare coming out. Not the one that just came out, but another one that's literally coming out in a couple months. Like, figure that one out. I can't. And it's about $89, I think. And then there's, of cou

rse, the new MK1 Mortal Kombat. And it was like $105 for their big version. That was their special edition. The regular edition was like $60. No, $69.99. They raised these prices for just the regular edition. And then Boulder's Gate was $69.99, the new Boulder's Gate as well. So I'm assuming this has gotta be, what, probably in the $70, it's worth it, probably $70, $80 range too. I think it's gonna be even more than that, maybe like $150. Because it's very popular. No, no, it is not. Oh, you're

saying it's $200 because that's what this Counter-Strike 2 means. Yeah, it is the cost of free. Ah, free. Imagine that. And it might be free as in beer, but it is the cost of free. What's interesting to me is that I went when I heard CSGO 2 was coming out and I went onto the page to go buy it. And the fact that it's free is really interesting because I would have paid money for it. Now, I probably wouldn't have paid $69 for it, let me be clear. But I thought an upgrade, 29 bucks, 20 bucks, I'd h

ave paid that for it. I think, so originally CSGO, when we were playing it with our massive, amazing skills on the missions and on the battle dome thing, whatever. The stuff that's kind of like Fortnite, but not Fortnite, whatever that's called. Clearly we're so good at that game. So this, when we first started playing that game, it was, I think, 20 bucks. I think it originally wasn't a free-to-play. At some point you had to pay for something with CSGO, but. I think it was a pay-for game, and th

en they decided to make it free-to-play after. So I'm pretty sure I remember paying for it and then some upgrade happening and they said, we're going to free to play and don't worry, everybody who's already paid for CSGO gets an extra thing. And I'm like, cool. I get an extra thing to the game that I'm so good at. Yeah, that's good. It's very good that that happens. So it's actually better because it's not just because they made a free to play game. They made a game that was so good people paid

for it for decades and then decided, you know what, let's make it free. Yeah. And here's the other thing, Jill, is that we may be doing a gaming session if this really cool interview we're working on happens, which we're not going to tell you who we're interviewing, but it's very exciting. If that happens, Jill, me and Mike, we're going to get together and we're going to do some gaming. And I think it has to be. Oh, boy. It has to be. Yeah. That way, Jill can see how bad we are and be like, come

on the show the next week and be like, I totally stomped the bus. She watched the stream, Ryan. She's pretty sure. She knows. Yeah, that's true. So. You can show us her tactics so we can actually get good. Just so everyone knows, there actually are a few bugs, notably issues of sound or the game crashing on Linux. But Valve is paying attention to the bug reports and should fix them very soon as an update. And in fact, today when I was playing it earlier, for me, there was no sound launching the

game for the first time, but all I had to do is a simple pipe wire fix in the launch options in the game properties and put TAC SDL audio driver space pipe wire. And it worked fine. And now it sounds perfect. So they're easy fixes. There's also a fix for pulse audio as well. Very cool. Cool. Yeah. Well, for those who are looking to get Counter-Strike, we'll have a link in the show notes. But if you've never heard of it before, it's on this thing called Steam. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. I'll have to look

that up on Google later. You might have to, because it's very hard to find. But you know what else that you should check out? Well, our software spotlight is Photopea. And I wanted to talk about Photopea because they are celebrating 10 years of this application, 10 year anniversary of this application. And I use it basically every day, maybe not every day, but almost every day. And for those who don't know, Photopea is kind of like a Photoshop alternative, but what's really cool about it is that

it's a web app. You don't have to install anything. You can just go to photopea.com and boom, you have a photo manipulation software. And this is not just one, there's a bunch of these kinds of thing on the web. This is not one of those where it's just, oh, we can do a few small things like remove red eye or rotate and crop things. This thing is effectively. 80% as good as Photoshop and that blew my mind the first time I used it. I started playing with this and it changed the way I did my graph

ics work because as a Linux user, I also was a professional graphics designer who had to use Photoshop, which meant I had to use a virtual machine of Windows to run Photoshop. I don't like how you're pretending this is any better. It's not open source software. You should be using GIMP. You're a traitor. Have a nice day. First of all, thank you, YouTube commenter. Oh, sorry. I'll address those in a second. Those are interesting points that should be addressed. But the thing is, when I was using

Photoshop in a VM, it bothered me because I was 99% a Linux user and technically 1% of Windows user because I had to use Photoshop. And then I found Photopea, and it effectively changed everything because I could use almost everything I needed to use in Photopea. And then they started adding more and more features. And one of the biggest features that I missed in Photoshop was the ability to use the CMYK color space for printing. And then Photopea added it. So okay, great, I have CMYK, that's aw

esome. And it also works really good with Photoshop documents like PSDs, so you can convert things into Photopea or really easily open stuff from Photoshop if you're working with other people, and so many things that it seems like a dream that it's happened, and it's also a web app, and it was made by, I think for the majority of it, maybe all of it, by one person, which is just crazy to me. And you can get access to it for only $50 per year. Now you can also use it for free, but there's ads on

the free version. So if you don't want ads, you can pay for the $50 per year, which is also a steal because it's such a good program. What's that, one one hundredth of the cost of Adobe Photoshop there? Yeah, I think if you if you just get Photoshop by itself, it's like twenty dollars per month. But I but also that's not exact. It's possible, but not the best. So if you wanted to get one, you would get like fifty dollars per month for the like the suite or whatever. And it's so inexpensive. And

it also requires you. You subscriptions. It also requires you to be constantly connected to the Internet to use it. Whereas the Photopea doesn't technically. You can just load the web page and then disconnect if you want to. Which is really cool because it means you're not having to worry about uploading your files. Because a lot of times these tools would require you to upload your files to their server before you can use it. Whereas Photopea you just load it in the browser and then work on it

and that's it. So you don't have to be connected the entire time just when you first load it. But let's address the elephant in the room. Just use GIMP. Be done. They comment that Ryan mentioned. I'm an expert artist. And I use GIMP. So. So you also don't use GIMP, right? No. I use Photopea. But for the purposes of this skit. For this bit right here. Yes. So this is going to be a... I knew this was happening. People were going to comment. Every time I talk about Photopea, I always mention that i

t's better than GIMP because it is. And we usually get a comment from here or there about this. Uh-uh. Yeah. And the difference is because Because a lot of people look at GIMP as being, because it's a free open source product, that it's automatically good, better because of that. And that's not how software works. So first of all, yes, it's cool that that exists. And for most people, I'd say probably 85, 90% of people, GIMP works fine. It will do what you need it to do, but it will do it very sl

owly. And in some cases, not at all. So a professional use case is a much different use case than an average user. Don't talk down to me, I know professional. I go and I click the paintbrush in the pencil tool and then I draw squiggly lines to make a Michael and then I save it in whatever format I want. Your art is just unmatched. Thank you. Unparalleled. Thank you. to a monkey. So this so the the reason why GIMP is not as good as Photopea is because of one particular thing there's there's a lot

of different features that Photopea has that GIMP doesn't have but there's one in very important difference and that is destructiveness and non-destructiveness. Photopea is non-destructive and GIMP is destructive and 99% of what professionals need is non-destructive tools. So, that's why Photopea is instantly better no matter what. Even if the tools were the same and not as featureful, it would still be better because it's non-destructive. And for those who don't know what that means, it essent

ially means that when you create a document inside of Photopea or Photoshop, anything that's non-destructive, like Krita is non-destructive, Inkscape is non-destructive, Those are different types of programs, but they're similar things in the same rough space. Well, when you have a document that is non-destructive, it means you can do all the stuff you wanna do, manipulate whatever you wanna do, add whatever effects you want, and then save it. And then come back a week later and adjust anything

that you did without having to redo anything else. Whereas a destructive system like GIMP does, when you make a change, the thing that you make becomes a new overall composite. And you can't just go back without doing Control Z. And in a destructive system, you actually can't go back at all unless you make copies of everything you do. But in the sense of non-destructive, you can have a step, you can do a process that your document made 50 changes. And you could go back specifically to change num

ber 26 and change that one particular piece and everything after it would automatically adjust. whereas a destructive that would be impossible. So that's why professionals need non-destructive and that's why GIMP is just not anywhere close to being an option for professionals. And because it's been around for so long, I think at 25 years, it probably won't get there. Unfortunately. Well, that's why there's a saying that choosy moms choose photopea. And I totally... Actually, choosy moms choose G

IF. Oh, okay. I got that one. That's up. But in any case, we're not saying GIMP is not an amazing piece of software that's great and is open source. And that just definitely gives it a big feather in the cap because I know people hear what they want to hear and they're going to be like, you guys are saying it's a terrible thing. And I want to be clear. Michael said 90 percent of users GIMP is perfectly fine and suits the purpose greatly for most users. If you get into the professional realm inst

ead of having to use a VM with Windows in it and using Adobe you can use photo P much cheaper has that non destructive feature makes it really cool. That's it. So there you go. I would also say the statement of saying this tool is better than the other tool is still true. If even if you're a regular user who doesn't need a lot it would still be a better tool. But at the same time I like its interface better a photo P like it's much easier for me to. I think it's actually more more modern and it'

s a miracle that it's on the web. So for a lot of people, I look at this as. I blew my mind when I saw it. Adobe Photoshop's one of those applications where a lot of people are like, I would use Linux, but, and then with Photopea, you can kind of remove a lot of those barriers there with that. You can't do everything that Photoshop can do. Like Photoshop is definitely better. But it is so close. Yeah. It's mind-blowingly close. So the tip this week is a way to be incognito in the CLI. CLI? CLI R

yan? What is it called? Come on Jill, it's not called the CLI, it's called the CLEE! We are the CLEE! You're the knights that say... CLI! Exactly. CLI. So, whether you want to say CLI or you want to say CLI, that's up to you. You can utilize the CLI in whatever way you want. Ha! Yes. Good job, Michael. Absolutely. After all, it means the same thing. The command line interface. Yeah. Actually, the funny thing about this, the first time I heard someone say CLI, I didn't know what they were talking

about because I always said CLI when I read it. And then when they said Klee, like, yeah, you could say that, why not? Yeah, it makes sense. I am more proficient with Klee than you are with CLI. It takes you so much longer to say the same thing. You know what I mean. Well, just to be a different, just be different, I'm gonna say Kly instead. Ooh, now we're really gonna make some people mad. I love the Kly too. Jill, tell us about incognito mode in the Kly. So our tip this week is incognito mode

for Bash. So in bash you can add a space before any command to prevent it from being added to the the history I have actually been using this for many years So all you have to do is just leave a space before any command like h top and voila the simple h top command Isn't listed when you use your up or down arrow keys. It's that easy And this is actually extremely helpful when you want to run dangerous commands that you don't want to accidentally repeat with up arrow or control R. This is a real

ly good tip, partly because I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I have been in the command line, the CLI, for many, many times and many years, in fact, the amount of times you accumulate that, I had no idea this was possible. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, that's what's cool about our tips. Us hosts learn something almost every other week too, because of our tips, because we all- And it's one of the best things about Linux is you can constantly learn more stuff and it just gets cooler and cooler. Ye

ah, absolutely. And another way to enter incognito mode in Bash is to type set space plus zero space history with a space at the beginning and set space minus zero space history to go back. And this will all be in the show notes. So it might sound a little confusing when I'm reading it, but it's all in the show notes. And you can also use bash space plus zero history to start a new instance of Bash with history disabled. Or if you have already run some commands and went bash to not save history

while exiting the session type unset h-i-s-t-f-i-l-e and then exit So just as a little additional tip in some distros the kli If you do the space before It'll still show up with your up arrow and things so it depends on your distro and the kli you're using However, that is a good point because sometimes the experience you have in the kli is going to be different Yes, depending on the distro. So with that, whatever bonus tip, nice. Those commands to set, you know, using those set commands, then t

hat works. Yeah, then that works everywhere. And there are a few other ways to do this too. There was another one where I had used a long time ago, which was a cat pipe bash. And that is also a way to, you know, run a program without having it show up in the history. Nice. Yeah. Pretty cool. Thanks. So many cool tips and bonus tips and you're going to be, you're going to be the greatest Cliers ever. Greatest Cliers ever. All right. So for events, there's a couple here. We got the Ubuntu Summit,

which Michael is going to. If you have ever wanted to meet Michael, I'm sorry for you, but you could go to the, oh, sorry. wanted to meet Michael, this is your opportunity to meet Michael at the Ubuntu Summit, which is happening in early November. Yeah. Yeah. It's early November. It's going to be in Europe. So if you are in or around Latvia, that's where it's taking place. I can't wait. I went last year. I thought I wasn't able to go this year, but I did get a chance to go. So that's going to be

awesome. And we have so many cool things planned. I'm not going to tell you everything, but I do have a talk that is planned at the Ubuntu Summit. So that'll be fun and we have a lot more and we're going to be talking about the summit as it gets closer and closer. And as each episode happens, I will tell you about one of the new things that I'm going to do at the summit so you can get, you know, excited for what's going to happen. There you go. I personally can't wait to hear about your talk th

at won't be about KDE, right? It could totally be about KDE actually. That's true. It'll be about the Klee. And if you want to meet all of us, you need to go to scale. That's where you get to meet all of us. And we have exciting news that we will be at scale 2024. It's scheduled for March 14th through the 17th at the Pasadena Convention Center, which is conveniently located in Pasadena, California. Oh, wow. Yeah, it makes sense. Southern California. Linux Expo is in California. And the Pasadena

Convention Center is in Pasadena. That's really good to know. Fascinating. And there you can hang out with the entire DL crew plus all the amazing Venner Later. vendors, veners, veners or vendors, and presenters, and open source enthusiasts. Every single year we go there, well, last few years we've been there, and every single year Skill happens, and Jill's been there for, I think since it started, but now she's hanging with us, so we get to look cool walking around with Jill, which makes us loo

k cool by default. And same rules apply, by the way, as last time. If you want Jill's autograph, you have to get Michael or my autograph first. You're not allowed to skip directly to Jill, So we feel important too. Exactly. Yes. We know that she's the best host of the show. Let us pretend to people. Let us have something people. No, we're all equals. We're all equals. Yeah. Well, you tell them Jill. A big thank you to each and every one of you for supporting us by watching or listening to Destin

ation Linux. However you do it, we love your faces. And you need to come join us on Discord. Speaking of applications, I have a lot of enhancements and things. Discord's like every time I open it, it's like new feature, new feature, new feature. And Austin updates, yeah. Kind of crazy. So check it out, go to tuxdigital.com slash discord. This is a cool place to hang out with the community, talk about Linux, talk about gaming, talk about fitness, talk about whatever you want. It's right there in

the discord channel. If you want to watch the show live, well, become a patron and you can watch the show live. And watching live is just one of the awesome perks that you get when you become a patron. So go to tuxdigital.com slash membership. And another thing to talk about discord, you actually get access to the patron only section of our Discord server, so there's another value of the Discord server, but in addition to that, you can also join us in the patron-only post show that happens every

week after the show, and so much more. Plus, we just introduced an ad-free version of the show that you can get by going to tuxdigital.com slash membership. So do that, plus tuxdigital.com slash store to get all some swag. Like the t-shirts, the hoodies, the mugs, the hats, the stickers, so much more. Christmas is right around the corner. Yeah. Right around the corner. Actually, it's getting closer and closer. So what you say is- Almost right. Almost right. Yes. Yes. And make sure to check out

all the incredible shows here on Text Digital. Do you want to learn about Enterprise Linux, cloud management and technology? Check out our awesome The Pseudo Show. And everyone head to textdigital.com, and subscribe to all our great shows. And don't forget to leave a rating on your favorite app so others can discover the power of open source and keep those penguins marching in the full Monty of Linux and open source awesome sauce. Everybody have a great week and remember that the journey itself

is just as important as the destination. Thanks everyone. We'll see you next week. Woo-hoo!