[Music] love welcome to the geek and review the podcast focused on Innovative and creative ideas in the legal profession I'm Marlene gabauer and I'm Greg Lambert so Marlene this is a take two for this episode because uh yes we we thought yesterday we would we would be creative and try to record in the same room which has never work before but you know that doesn't stop us from thinking that it will work this time so um has worked on occasion um it has worked but but lately it has not worked yeah
well the biggest thing was we did we got into a room that none of the power outlets worked so that was the first thing then we ran to another room and then it turned out we there was a misspelling in the in poor Nikki's email so uh she didn't have this on her calendar and we still couldn't get get things going so she was such a good sport for trying absolutely so to be until today clearly absolutely so uh so for our love and legal Tech feature we have with us today uh Nikki shaver the CEO and c
o-founder of legal technology Hub and Chris Ford legal marketing adviser and co-founder of the legal technology Hub so Chris and Nikki welcome to the geekon review thank you us and and as everyone knows we're we're using a pretty broad definition of legal Tech but I think our guests today kind of just fit right into that little uh niche of of legal technology so let me let me start off uh Nikki um can you describe exactly what it is that you and you and Chris do in the legal Tech field sure um s
o we together with our co-founder founder Yun plink and our team we run legal Tech Hub which is a One-Stop shop um for law firms and corporate legal departments to get information about all of the legal Technology Solutions around the world as well as tools and resources to help them evaluate the market and run internal projects to procure and Implement legal technology um and so that is a project that Chris and I initially started back in 2020 during the pandemic um but which is now a really vi
able and growing thriving business which we're very excited about Chris you got anything to add add to that that was pretty quick yeah it was pretty quick but uh she's she's done that before um it started as a passion project as Nikki said uh as of uh you know I won't speak for her but when she was at Paul Hastings in a in a senior Innovation role uh it was you know a constant source of frustration that she wasn't able to go to one single source of Truth for uh for you know all the different leg
al Technology Solutions that were out there and one day one evening after dinner after yet another day of Zoom calls um she said why don't we build this and I said why hasn't someone else and then we started building it then we realized this is why because it's really really hard to find them all if it was easy everyone would have done it right that's right that's right right so uh how did the two of you meet come on no I know you want to take this one well yeah we met the oldfashioned way um th
rough a dating site right um this was in the what about um 13 and something years ago uh back in Australia um it the internet dating thing wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now and it was sort of emerging from the shadows and we were um almost early adopters we went uh on a very popular mainstream dating site and and found each other very cool yeah I A friend of mine told me um I actually was thinking of moving from Australia to New York at the time and um she said well before you leave maybe just t
hrow exactly what you're looking for online and uh I did so and within one week found Chris which was amazing yeah I also um Nikki was the first person I met through online dating untrue that's that is absolutely untrue only person I met through online but he said it said it with such a straight face very sincere wow yeah so I know in the states we have uh you know like farmersonly.com U was this was this legaltech only.com is that what this was yeah that's right it was the Australian legal Tech
dating site no actually at the time neither of us were in Tech I well Chris actually had a line in his profile that um it it was a quote from the movie Anchorman and um he had written underneath it brownie points to anyone who can tell me where this quote is from and um he he had connected with me or whatever in a way that made it feasible for me to write back to him and it just appealed to my competitive spirit I knew the answer so I had to tell him so he got me that way yeah and look we we co
nnected um because we both have like extremely International upbringings and um you know we wanted to have a sense of compatibility in that way and uh yeah um Nikki uh you know was born uh in the Netherlands grew up in Germany I um grew grew up in Southeast Asia uh we both have a strong North American background as well so uh yeah we uh we clicked instantly yeah so how how did you guys end up working in this the same area because I know you've been kind of do I know you've been doing this in the
background but you've kind of kind of been working together longer than that right yeah well well um together together the same same I had um I had been a lawyer in Australia for many years and um and then when we we decided the two of us decided to move to Canada actually initially with our kids because both of our brothers lived in North America and both had kids and we wanted the cousins all to know each other so we moved and I kind of fell into the field of legal Tech and km and Innovation
almost accidentally um it's while I was requalifying to be a lawyer it's the job I got as a as a contract gig with with one of the large firms in Canada um at a time when I didn't know what legal Tech even was um and amazingly I mean I I really met some of the people that I'm closest to now in the world I met um Carla swansburg who's now at Clear X um Simon wormwell who's at Osler Kate Simpson who's at Bennett Jones worked with all of them worked from the GetGo on an Enterprise search project on
an internet project and immediately just absolutely loved it um and so I've stayed in that field ever since and Chris was in general marketing and I always used to say wouldn't it be great if you were in one field in marketing instead of sort of marketing agnostic which is what he used to say in terms of Industries um and interestingly if you look back over all the jobs you had Chris in marketing there was this weird even though he doesn't come from from a legal background a themee of working f
or legal environments or legal companies in some way or another throughout his career um but it hadn't you hadn't actually decided on that particularly Chris right until much later yeah i' um I'd worked on the periphery uh of of legal technology in various sales and marketing jobs starting with uh Lexus Nexus in in Sydney actually and then um when we moved to Canada Nikki's half Canadian that's how we got our permanent residency and um the first job I had there was Lexus Nexus Canada and when we
moved to New York with Nikki's job I was working with Axiom and then um uh from there I you know became the CMO at zero which is a a legal technology company so you know I i' I've not quite fell into it but uh decided you know that this is an industry where I wanted wanted to build a bit of a of a career and this is uh how what brought me to this point yeah it was when we moved to New York that really when Chris then started working in legal Tech I think we realized there were great benefits to
us both being in the field and he loved it and I loved it and it made sense for both of us to stay in it yours well I asked him about being in the same profession oh you did already sorry um I I well I fell off because I lost connection so sorry um so what uh what's been the most challenging thing about being in the same profession I mean obviously there's really lots of really good things but you know Chris you know what do you think is the most challenging thing chalk uh we have a 10-year-old
and a 12-year old now and you know it's necessary that both of us go to ilon it's necessary that both of us you know are at legal week and then uh you know at at social events uh there in and uh we'll both be going to clock and while we took the kids to to Orlando last year to ilter uh and um you know that worked out beautifully it's it's a bit of a challenge for us uh when we have uh we have to go to the same events and especially overnight so it's tough um you know we we have a really close f
amily the four of us and we we hate leaving them alone but the kids understand they know that um Mama and Dad are building something for the family and they and they're they're terrific with it uh but yeah it's tough to it's tough to leave them yeah I mean go ahead Nikki yeah no I I that's exactly the same answer as I have I mean I think it's interesting um a lot of people would think it's really difficult to work together we because of the way I mean being in legal Tech to in the same field I t
hink is fine if you're in different companies working as we do for now the same company um I think a lot of people were kind of surprised and thought that might be a significant challenge but um because we started building legal Tech Hub initially together and it was during the pandemic when everyone was home and it was that kind of strange time you know we spent weekends and evenings doing this work together of doing all of this research and um that worked really really well well and really nic
ely between us and we had developed a really nice sort of Rhythm and Cadence to working together and um I I actually think I Chris I don't know whether you'll disagree with this I feel as though it has been better for our relationship to work together than when we were not working together like I actually like it more um which what you say B well when no when he came properly into Tech Hub this past year fulltime um we made sure that reporting lines were not so such that I would be Chris's boss
because that would not work at all that it doesn't explain why when she um requests a cup of coffee by text in the morning that she signs that she signs the tech uh the the the text legal Tech Hub CEO I mean why no need no look the thing is sounds right to me yeah Marlene and Greg what we um really are into and what you know what has driven our passion is the fact that we are building what we call Sweat Equity for the first time in our careers into something of our own you know before legal Tech
Hub neither of us had really run our own business and this time um we are building something uh where we we are building the entire thing and we did it genuinely from scratch we can show you yeah we've got it we've got a fantastic team now we're building which is which is great but we can show you the uh the paper napkin uh where we sketched out the first uh wireframe of of the legal techhub website uh at a at a pub on on the street during the pandemic while we were masking up and and sipping b
eers it was uh it's been a great journey and we love that we are building this thing together it's interesting because we've had a couple of guests um you know two of which worked at the same company for a period of time and then two of which started their own company and um you know both had you know very different but positive you know experiences with with that and I know the the folks that started their own company um you know it's like kind of 247 like they they just sort of live and breath
e it and it just sort of bleeds you know personal and and professional kind of bleed into one another and they have to like schedule time to be like okay we one or the other so like I'm wondering how you guys approach that I mean I definitely you you're right that they bleed into one another um and and in fact one of the reasons why it also works I think for us to be in the same business and in the same industry is because we are international and we're not from New York but we live here and not
our whole social life but a very significant portion of our social life is in legal Tech it's it's the people that we spend time with at conferences or we now have a crowd of people who live in Brooklyn who are in legal Tech where we arrange meetups we have Chris arranges this uh Commonwealth orphans Meetup which is people who are Australian and from the UK and now live in New York and or in legal Tech and it's actually a big part of our social network um so that works really nicely um but I do
n't know I feel like because of the kids maybe we're pretty good at also having times where we don't talk about that um and we have a lot of other interests in common luckily uh so we can watch you know TV shows and have and have conversations that don't revolve around it but I would be lying if we I said we didn't also sometimes just segue into well what about this feature and what about you know that um work conversation at the dinner table from time to time it's really hard not to I mean it's
um but I don't find that problematic it doesn't dominate um except I imagine we are a startup so it dominates Our Lives anyway because that's just the life yeah let's put up a a quick poll a quick quiz for the for the audience um which out of Chris and Nikki dreams in legal Tech do you [Music] think only one does I'm gonna say Nikki to be I mean to be to be fair and I mean you know Greg and I both come from families who had their own businesses and you know it's you know I I think that you know
at least from my perspective there's a total understanding I mean you live and breathe that you know that job because that's you know you're it's yours um like you said you know you guys created this and there's that passion for it right exactly and our kids understand that too and Y they feel a sense of Pride about it as well and Yun is such a close partner and uh we know his family well as well you know I mean it it is it feels there's something close about it that's different than working fo
r a large established company yeah well I know when we put out a call uh in back in January that we were going to do this uh series that we had you two were mentioned by multiple people that we had to had to talk to the two of you um and it sounds like you've got a good Community there in in the the the Brooklyn area um but uh when when you run into people at Ila or at clock that don't know that you two are a couple uh what's what's the reaction that that you get uh typically Chris you have to t
ell them what you do at our conferences Chris Chris we run some events and Chris's one of Chris's Favorite Things is to embarrass me he's only allowed to do it once during each event I mean that that's only at the events I mean dayto day I'm far I have far more uh leeway to embarrass her but um I I usually wait until um like the very last um when MC this one day event I usually wait until the very last session which is invariably a a conference wrapup and um a Q&A with Yun and Nikki and I'll you
know introduce um Yun by you know CEO of co-founder legal techhub and I will always um say something wildly inappropriate and romantic about Nikki to introduce her because I know that many people in the audience don't know that we're a couple so what was they're all like yeah I I I I love the awkward looks that are exchanged around the room as they as I say something like um Nikki shaver um CEO co-founder legal Tech Hub and uh what was it the gate gatekeeper of the four chambers of my heart yea
h something like that or or or or the other one I did was um the mayor of Love Town population me you can't be upset about that can't be upset but I just make it as cheesy as I can and I I just Relish in the awkwardness around the room of the 40 to 50% of people that don't know where together until Nikki invariably goes I always just everybody just so you know it is weird when we're at conference is though and I you know we introduce you I say this is Chris our head of marketing and then you kno
w it's like and also by the way he's my husband um I don't I never know what to lead with um at a social event at a conference obviously in a professional setting it's clear what to lead with most of the time when when Nikki's not with me and I say I'm Nicki shab's husband they say something like you got Nikki it's I mean it's there's no need to pull a face they always do well yes I did as a matter of fact yeah all right so I'm going to enjoy asking this question because you two both have have v
ery distinct and strong personality so I'm really curious to see how you answer this um how do you guys handle situations where you may not agree on how to handle it um what do you you know what are your what are your approaches yeah in I feel as though that hasn't come up a lot weirdly um in the company I think we're pretty good at talking through things um I think we're pretty good at talking through things I I I can't really think of a situation where there's been a very strong disagreement b
etween us can you Chris on on something to do with a company no really not and and look even non-company issues where both passate people and we we're not we're not the type that will you know let something simmer or smolder we're like let's just get it out there if it if we need to you know get get stuff on the table let's get it out there because we know we want to move on because we just we like each other too much and we don't want to wallow in this so if it ever comes up I I imagine in in a
a professional sense I imagine we'll adopt the same sort of attitude we both want the same thing we both want to move on for this so let's just get it out there and sort it out I will say it probably helps enormously that you you know Yun is a co-founder as well and so typically you know he and I will talk things through and then Chris and Yun and I will talk things through and I think that it helps it's not just the two of us making big decisions um very much you know Yun is part of that as we
ll and so that um having three means it's it's diff it's you can't reach a situation where there's a tie that needs to be broken somehow between the two of us so so do the two of you ever gang up on your room no no not as far as you know [Laughter] Greg so um I think we went ahead and answered the kind of how you balance the the work in in life uh together so Marlene if you want to jump to the next one yeah so um you know let's let's talk about some of the interesting things I mean you know we k
now that you both are working on legal technology hubs so you know what are some interesting things that are are happening now um in your business we we launched our subscription platform at the beginning of last year and we have over 90 Enterprise wide subscribers now so that has moved very quickly um which is wonderful for us obviously the whole evolution of generative AI has put us in a really good position with firms and companies needing to know about what is happening on the tech side and
which companies are adopting generative Ai and kind of mapping that has been an area where we've been able to be really valuable um we're excited about some of the growth areas for this year so growing a lot of content growing the team to be able to support a lot more growth on the content side um really supporting more on the corporate legal side and extending into midsized firms and providing some additional features around really um the details of security and data hosting locations for produ
cts things that it's really difficult for people to find out on their own from websites and so on um so and and some other features that are coming that are on the road map which uh we'll talk about at a later stage but we're yeah there's There's real growth at the moment and that's for me the exciting thing about the company right now and one of the cool side effects I think we've uh we've had from building legal Tech Hub is um we Nikki and I have a fairly unique insight into the legal technolo
gy ecosystem like globally you know we when we built um uh legal Tech Hub we were hoping to launch with 500 tools and now we have just yeah we're closing in on 2400 um commercially viable legal technology Solutions globally and what we've learned is you know we've learned that certain parts of the world are uh strong incubators of legal technology uh we've learned that there are legal Tech deserts in in certain countries where we're like hey you should what's going on Italy why aren't you why ar
en't there a bunch more legal technology providers there where there are so heavily concentrated in you know Finland and and places like that so it has been really really interesting and not only geographically but to see the growth of of the legal technology functions from the Legacy systems like your practice management and Doc automation through to the um AI chat Bots and and things like that it's been a really fascinating Journey for us to learn about the world of legal Tech yeah I'm wonderi
ng about as you're talking about culture of different uh countries different societies um how are you say I would say who do you think is the most eager to uh change and adapt with with AI tools and who's probably the most uh reluctant so you know it's so interesting I would have said up until the beginning of last year I would have said that the US actually fell behind in this regard um the US market being such a large legal Market um and and so strong meant that there was less pressure on firm
s to adopt technology or new ways of working um and the UK has been ahead of the game in a lot of ways um the Nordic I mean in terms of other parts of the world the Nordic region is a real hot bed for Innovation um Australia and Canada are both regions where I guess because of small markets um they're quite similar to one another and again there's been real um High adoption of technology and um they're quite Innovative markets but interestingly last year things changed and I had this perception
during most of the year and then we ran a survey at the end of the year across a number of different regions which really confirmed this which is last year the US raced ahead of most other parts of the world um uh in terms of geni traction especially when it comes to Legal um and I think there are a number of reasons for that one of which is case Tex availability in the US and the fact that the content set that case text had for co- counil was a US data set um and the fact that case text as a co
mpany already had a significant measure of trust in the US meant it was easier to adopt um but it's really interesting to see so for the first time I would say the US has actually crept ahead there well uh the typically we ask our uh crystal ball question at this point but we're we've morphed it into what what we're calling our Valentine's uh question in that um with the with the two of you um being a couple working in the same industry working in in the same company um if you had another couple
come up and ask you you know what what's the secret how how do you make this work um Chris I I guess we'll start with you uh what What's some advice that you would give a couple that's looking to work in the same industry um focus on the fact that you both want the same thing at the at the end of the day that you you're both driven towards the same goal and there may be different paths to get there and different opinions on how to get there but ultimately um the the end goal is the same and for
Nikki and I uh we are building something for our family and we always we always um frame it that way uh this is something for for all four of us and uh it it keeps us you know it keeps all the outside noise to to a to a minimum uh when we're when we're thinking about which way to go forward for I would say both of you whoever you are bring different skill sets to play and it's a matter of really respecting the skills that your partner has and recognizing where your expertise lies and where thei
r expertise lies so one of the reasons I think that Chris and I do work so well together is because if something is around marketing or sales I would defer to him because his knowledge and experience is much more significant there than mine but if something came down to Legal Tech specifically or innovation he would defer to my expertise and so having that professional respect for one another and remembering that at at its core you also have a relationship and you like one another it's important
to remember those things but if you can really respect one another professionally I think that um that makes a world of difference see I changed my answer now to that that was way better much better than my answer you're you're the second uh one that has done that that see little insight to the dynamic of our relationship there I just I'll say something nich Nikki you'll say something way better and smarter and then I'll be like yep okay I changed my mind what she said you got to respect the sk
ill set right that's right it's it's a willingness to be able to to shift your opinion so and I will I will just also just quickly say I mean Chris is and always has been such an amazing supporter of mine and he's you know when I said let's build this he is the sort of person who instead of saying that's crazy talk we both have jobs he said yeah let's do it and also have these jobs you know and that kind of support um I mean there's no way this would work unless that existed in the relationship
so um I I guess having the personalities the right personalities are is key as well but I'm very lucky that Chris is so supportive of all of my crazy ideas very cool well Nikki and Chris thank you very much for coming on the geek and review and sharing your love and legal Tech story thank you so much for having us thank you Greg thank you moling and of course thanks to all of you our listeners for taking the time to listen to The Geek and review podcast if you enjoyed the show share it with a co
lleague we'd love to hear from you so reach out to us on social media I can be found on LinkedIn or on X at gabow M and on threads at M gabow 66 and I can be reached on LinkedIn or on xit glambert and threads you can reach me at glambert pod uh Nikki and Chris uh where can listeners reach out and and find out more about you and about legal technology Hub certainly find us on LinkedIn under my name Nicola shaver and legal technology hub.com and on LinkedIn legal techhub one.com legal Tech that's
on Twitter I think anyway find us on Linkin they'll find you and you can't find me because my name is Chris Ford and it it's just I was it AB show last week there were two Chris Fords at ABA Tech show in the same Hotel oh that's funny um and and uh the love and legal tech music that you hear for this series is from Jerry David Desa and Eve sir so thank you Jerry and Eve yeah thanks Jerry and Eve all right thank you everyone and we hold [Music] te
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