[MUSIC] Oliver Bogler: Hello and welcome to Inside cancer
careers a podcast from the National Cancer Institute. I'm your host, Oliver
Bogler. I work at the NCI in the Center for Cancer Training. On Inside Cancer Careers
we explore all the different ways that people join the fight against disease and hear
their stories. Today we're talking about tech transfer. Listen through to the end
of the show to hear our guests make some interesting recommendations and where
we invite you to take your
turn. Scientific discovery has inherent value
in advancing knowledge and understanding, often represented in scientific papers, sometimes
in scientific textbooks, and in rare instances in popular books. But in order for it to have an
effect on the broader society, discoveries are launched out of academia into the private sector,
where they form the basis of new products that can be offered broadly, to meet the needs of the
people who can benefit from them. An important early step in this pa
th is technology transfer,
itself a body of knowledge and skills. Today, we're speaking with experts in this area, and are
going to hear about programs that were created to help anyone interested in such work learn
about it. With me in this first segment, our two colleagues from NCI’s Technology Transfer Center.
Dr. Laura Prestia, Senior Innovation Manager. Laura Prestia:
Hello. Oliver Bogler: And Dr. Laurie Whitney, Supervisory
Technology Transfer Manager. Laurie Whitney:
Hello there. Oliv
er Bogler: Welcome to you both. So let's start with the
fundamentals. What is technology transfer? And why is it important in today's cancer
research and innovation landscape? Laura Prestia: So I'll take this one, this is Laura. So tech
transfer is the transfer of knowledge, data, information from one organization to another, and
it can involve collaborations and managing the agreements between those two collaborators. It can
involve patenting and protecting new discoveries, intellectual pr
operty, and inventions. And
it can involve licensing out those patents or technologies by companies who can take them
to the next level and commercialization. And I think also marketing is in there and
making sure everyone is aware of the inventions and discoveries that you're
creating. And I think in a nutshell, that's it… Laurie, do you have any
additional… did I miss anything? Laurie Whitney: Yeah, and good luck to everybody
with Laurie and Laura, that that should be real fun here today
. I think
yeah, just in a broad perspective, is that academic and government organizations do
very basic research, we do preclinical research, some clinical research, but at some point, it
has to go out to a company to get developed and made into a therapeutic or diagnostic or
that sort of thing. And in order to get there, it has to be transferred in some way and at
some stage, and that's what we help with, and all those things that Laura just talked about
the agreements and the licenses,
patenting, those are the sorts of tools that we use to get it out
to the outside to companies for development Oliver Bogler: So we'll talk a little bit about your education
training programs in a little bit. But am I right, in understanding that part of your work
is to look for technologies that are being developed within the research program at
NCI that are suitable for such transfer. Laurie Whitney: Yeah, that is correct. And they come in all
different stages, like I said. Some labs do ve
ry, very basic research, which is amazing and cool
science and but maybe not so applicable or ready yet to be moved to the outside. But then we do
all different stages. So we have preclinical stuff going on and clinical research. So yeah,
at some point, you know, they interact with us because they, the investigators really want to
see their research turned into something that can be valuable for patients. And so they come to us
to help figure out the path to get it there. Oliver Bogler: So
what are the strategies that you
use to find this kind of research? How do you learn about it? Or how do
how do the investigators at NCI learn about you so that they make the
connection at the right time? Laurie Whitney: That's a really good question. So basically, it
comes in in every different way. So sometimes we do a lot of outreach in our office. So we'll
go to lab meetings that the investigators have on a regular basis and we interact.
Basically face time is really a great thing, whe
ther it's over Zoom in the modern world or
just going to the lab and interacting with them a lot. So you're there and it sparks there. They
think about it, they think ‘oh she does technology transfer’ and it sparks something in there and
they are ‘oh we have a question’. And then it starts a conversation. They also have may have
collaborators on the outside companies that they meet at meetings that come to them and say, ‘oh,
you know, we're really interested in this. Can you tell us more ab
out your technology? And how
might we interact more with you regarding it?’ So then they come to us, because they don't know how
to do that. Or they may come and say, you know, ‘we think we have an invention. Can you look at
this new manuscript, we're about to have published and tell us, do you think there's an invention
here? And if so, how do we go about, you know, getting a patent application filed on that? And
where do we go from here’. So it really comes at us in a myriad of different
ways, and through a
lot of different avenues. And I think one of the biggest things which Laura can attest to, because
she works in communications is just keeping lines of communication really open and having good
relationships with your investigators. Laura Prestia: Yeah, we also try to write up some success
stories about transfer of different technologies, and how we've worked with the research labs to
make that happen. So we'll publish some different stories in the NIH Catalyst, which is
one of our
internal newsletters, and a bunch of different places. Our website has success stories that you
can read about different ways partnerships have transferred technologies, and we also do a lot
of advertising for our training programs. And I think maybe some labs that may not do a lot
with tech transfer, they hear about it from their trainees who are interested in learning
more. And so that information trickles up. Oliver Bogler: So Laurie, you said something, I think important
a
moment ago, which is, someone contacts you when they are just about to have a manuscript
published. So I think commonly people think that if someone publishes something, or even gives
a presentation at a conference or you know, at a seminar that precludes effective
tech transfer, is that correct? Laurie Whitney: Yes, that is correct. And, you know, sometimes
that's the first way that investigators figure out about patenting is because they publish
something, or they present something or the
y have a conversation, and then they tell
us about this publication that they had. And then it's unfortunate, right, because it's
out in the public and it's publicly disclosed, and then you're kind of shooting yourself
in the foot for getting an issued patent on it. So they like sometimes they stumble
across it, and then they learn and then the next time it rolls around, that it's in
their head, and they think, oh, you know, I got burned before. So now I really need to
pay attention to tha
t. And then it gets their attention, and they then are more likely to
come to you. So they kind of sometimes they stumble upon us. And so, you know, whatever
avenue they can get to us is great. Oliver Bogler: So I guess just for our listeners, then
I guess if in doubt reach out to you, and ask you to take a look at
something at the earliest point. Laurie Whitney: Absolutely. I think again, it goes
back to communication and as much communication as you can have with the lab
and keeping trac
k of what they're doing and having conversations with them about their
research. And as it progresses. And you know, they're always super excited to talk about it,
which is what the fun part is for me. So they love to have those conversations. And if you can
engage them in those conversations, then you can sort of sort through where their research is at
and sort of pathways they can go from there. And one of those might be patenting. So keeping open,
the communication is just really importa
nt. Oliver Bogler: All right, so someone brings something to you,
shows it to you. How are you assessing the market potential suitability for patenting? What are
the thoughts and criteria that you look at? Laurie Whitney: And that's a really great question, too.
Because I think even within our office, sometimes in tech transfer professionals, you
know, they … there's always sort of things you think about when you look at a maybe a new
employee invention report that you get when you're consi
dering a new technology. And there
are certainly those things that you want to think about the standard sorts of things. But as the
colleague of mine, always says, every technology is its own beautiful snowflake. And so I think
you really have to very much look at what comes to you, look at what stage of development it is
at, is it only in vitro? Is it in vivo? Is it clinical? Where is that at? What unmet need, is it
filling, which is really the most important thing, I think when we ask an
inventor to fill out
an employee invention report is, you know, report to me where what the stage of technology
currently is, and then tell me where yours is, and tell me what niche or unmet need it fills.
So we definitely have that conversation. We talk about whether it's been disclosed or not like
we mentioned, which might preclude the ability to get an issued patent on it. We talk we think
about what resources we have internally at the NIH where we could help the inventors get directed
to the right other sorts of collaborations or resources they might need to develop it. So
the feasibility of its development, you know, the market, is there a market for it, which kind
of goes back to that ‘is there an unmet need’, competing technologies. That sort of thing,
to figure out where to go with that. Oliver Bogler: That's the conversation at the beginning,
then you apply for a patent. The patent is not like a manuscript, right? I wonder if
people are like concerned, oh, my, you k
now, it's like writing a whole nother paper,
you know, with all the sort of elements that are that a scientific research paper
has. But my understanding is that a patent is something slightly different. It's,
it's really some demonstration, some data, and then a discussion of how it might be applied
to real world problems, is that right? Laurie Whitney: So yes, it is different in that sense, because
you're really trying to capture the scope of what the technology that you're trying to descr
ibe
in the patent application. So it's really focused around, you know, what the invention is, and being
very broad and giving a broad description of it. So it's written differently than, you know, a
manuscript would be written. So there's the big broad description of it. And then you're going
to have some claims, obviously, some very broad, some more narrow as you go, that are directed to,
to the technology, but we always give a sort of a rule of thumb to investigators is once you get to
the point of where you have like a first draft of a manuscript, it doesn't have to be a finished
draft, just your first draft of your manuscript, where it definitely lays out what the idea
is, the background, and you know, what the, what the technology is, and where you're
going with it, and have some figures and some legends and that sort of thing. So that
we can have a really good sense of what the invention and what the investigator thinks the
invention might be, then we work from that,
and then pull from that. And then those things
go into the patent application. So it's not like, you know, you have to redo a whole bunch of
writing in the sense of redo a whole bunch of experiments, you pull from the manuscripts,
usually, when they're at that stage, Oliver Bogler: And patents are not peer reviewed in
the same way that manuscripts are. Laurie Whitney: Right. No, they go to the, in our case for the
US to the US Patent and Trademark Office and are reviewed by a patent examine
r there. And
it's a very different sort of procedure. Oliver Bogler: And then it can take a while before
a patent might be awarded. Right. Laurie Whitney: Yes, quite some time. And of course,
there are several stages, you know, and it's always, for new inventors. It's
always an education, because it is, you know, a lengthy process between the time when you
file a patent application, and the time when you get an issued patent. So yeah, it can
take quite a bit of time to get there. Oliver Bo
gler: And just like with publication,
there are costs as well. Laurie Whitney: Yes, very expensive. So, yeah. So you start
out again, it's sort of an education for new inventors, you start out typically we’ll file
a provisional patent application. And then in a year, if things look good, we'll
go on to file a PCT application. Oliver Bogler:
Can you expand that acronym, sorry? Laurie Whitney: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, Patent Cooperation Treaty,
PCT, it's an international application. So and then,
year and a half later, if we're still
looking good, and this technology is still moving forward, and we want to proceed, then
you file a national stage patent application, and that would be … you pick the different
countries you want to file in. And each of those stages can be very expensive. So it's
not a cheap endeavor. And so, you know, the NCI probably, and I can say unequivocally,
doesn't file patent applications at the rate that like a company does. So we really tend
to file when we
know that the technology is going to need some help from industry to get
it where it needs to be. So filing patent applications really act as an incentive for
development of the technology by companies, Oliver Bogler: Right? Because if it isn't patented,
then it's really not attractive to a company to develop because they
can't protect their IP. Laurie Whitney:
Exactly. Oliver Bogler:
So, tech transfer offices exist at most universities and research
institutes right now. Laurie Whitney:
Co
rrect. Yeah. Oliver Bogler: So I wonder what the trends are. I wonder, you
know, looking back or maybe over the last 10 or 20 years and looking forward for that length
of time, are you seeing any shifts and what kinds of inventions you're getting the nature of
what's being protected and commercialized? Laurie Whitney: I think it here at NCI, we've
seen a shift in that, you know, immunotherapy has become certainly
a very hot topic in the last 10, 15 years. So a lot of you know, we're at the
NCI, we're a cancer institute, but we certainly see a lot of immunologically associated filings
going on. So a lot of immuno-oncology. So yeah, that's a hot space. But we do research in all
sorts of areas. So we look at everything. Oliver Bogler: All right. Thanks, Laura, maybe turn
to you. You've created a series of fellowship opportunities at the NCI in the
tech transfer center. And I wanted to talk a little bit about those. Can you tell
us what kind of fellowships exist? Laura Prestia:
Sure. So I haven't created the tech transfer
fellowships themselves. They were here long before I came around. I think they
may be at least 30 years old. Laurie Whitney: We have a very, very old and active
fellowship program in our office, where I think one of the things we're most
proud of - we love our fellowship program. Laura Prestia:
Yes, for sure. And actually, our previous director was a fellow I was
a fellow, Laurie you were a fellow. Laurie Whitney:
I think a lot of our directors h
ave been a fellow and a lot of people in our office
are fellow or have been fellows. Laura Prestia: Yeah, so we have maybe 10 or so fellows in our
office of about 70 or so people, total. And the fellowship program is a fully paid fellowship.
So the stipend covers the fellows salary, as well as they have health insurance. It's
a typical job. So at this point, if they were to join the fellowship with their interest in
tech transfer, and following that as a career, they would be fully full tim
e working
in tech transfer, learning how to draft these different agreements and learning how to
protect technologies and the whole thing, Oliver Bogler: So what's the background of people
who come to this fellowship, Laura Prestia: They can have an advanced degree
in the sciences, business, law, typically, people will have a PhD and in
science, so you think, oh, tech transfer, maybe it's a lot of lawyers or business people,
but it's really heavy on those with a science background. And the
n we kind of teach what's
needed from the business and law sides. Oliver Bogler: And I guess that's because ultimately,
they'll be looking at the science that is being discussed in the context of transfer. Laura Prestia: Right. So having that ability to dive into certain
experiments and understand what pieces of those inventions will become the claims and the patent
and understanding what's necessary for invention development and drawing those connections with
maybe the standard of care in
the field and trying to see like where this science that we have here
sets that apart from what's already out there Oliver Bogler: Strikes me as sort of similar to the kind of
program and review work that a lot of people at NCI do as well, you get to stay in touch
with the science, you get to read a lot of cool science think about science, but you're
not yourself primarily doing research. Laura Prestia: Exactly. It's a really nice way to stay with the
science even though you're not in the l
ab. Oliver Bogler: So I understand that the tech
transfer fellowship has three different tracks. Is that the
right way to describe it? Laura Prestia: Yes, yeah. So typically, the more traditional
track is the negotiator track. And we also have a business development and marketing fellowship.
And then within the past couple of years, we have an Innovation Fellowship. So that
negotiation is one where the fellow focuses on the typical duties of a tech transfer manager.
So everything that Laur
ie was talking about, from meeting with the labs, learning about what
work they're doing, helping identify whether a new discovery could be an invention, and whether
or not we should patent those and make those recommendations. And they do a lot of interacting
with the patent law firms, the PTO and drafting agreements with collaborators. If there's a lab
that wants to work on a project with a company, they'll interact with that company and helped
draft the terms of the agreement and working
on the different licensing, if we have a
patent and there's a company that wants to come in and take that patent as a license
and commercialize it, then they'll draft the terms of that license as well. So they
do the typical tech transfer duties. Oliver Bogler: What about the business development
and marketing group? Laura Prestia: We have a special unit in our office called
Technology Analysis and Marketing Unit. And in that group, they analyze the market space
for the technologies that
we have patents on. So they identify potential partners that
might be interested in working with us. And they essentially help spread the word about tech
transfer to companies who may not know they can work with the NCI, and let them know, here's
who you would contact, if you're interested in a technology, if you want to look at what
technologies we have, here's where you would find them. And they really go out and do a lot
of that outreach at conferences and meetings. Oliver Bogler: That k
ind of makes the point
that it's not as if you're, you're done when say the patent is
issued or applied for. You're then also shepherding that technology into
the marketplace. Is that correct? Laura Prestia: Right. We want to make sure that it gets
out there. And actually, the inventors themselves do a lot of that marketing just
by virtue of going to conferences themselves, and, and having, you know, their own
presentations. I think that's one of our top ways that we get partners for these
technologies through the inventors. Oliver Bogler: And then there's the third track the
innovation track. That sounds cool. Laura Prestia: Yeah, this one's relatively new. And this kind of
stemmed from where my career trajectory has has taken me. So I have a PhD in neuroscience moved
into tech transfer through one of these tech transfer fellowships, specifically the negotiator
role. And then I dabbled in marketing and invention development for a little while. And all
along the way, I had
this passion to help spread awareness about tech transfer to scientists,
because as a scientist in grad school, I had no idea what tech transfer was. And one of the ways
I found out was, I had had one I'd have I think I presented at a conference, my graduate work,
and one of the one of the tech transfer officers from the university came and spoke to me. And he
was like, ‘Hey, have you talked about patenting this?’ And I was like, ‘oh, no, I did not know
that was a thing’. So I kind of learn
ed by being burned. And I didn't, I didn't want that to happen
to others. So as I was learning about it, I moved into the field. And so this Innovation Fellowship
is really helping to create more awareness about tech transfer to scientists, and helping to create
new programs that can help train scientists who want to move into tech transfer, help train
scientists who want to stay in the lab, but know about tech transfer and learn more about what's
important to develop their technologies. Ol
iver Bogler: Very cool. And the, the eligibility
criteria, they're similar for across all these three different tracks in
your in your fellowship. Right, Laura Prestia: Right. Yeah, so an advanced degree
in the sciences, law business. And then also just our Cancer Research Training
Award, this the CRTA fellowship that we have, that eligibility includes receiving their most
current degree within the last eight years, and US citizenship or permanent
residency eligible for citizenship within
four years. So those are our
requirements across the three, Oliver Bogler: But people outside the NCI can
also participate, right. Laura Prestia: Yeah, that's primarily … we do a lot
of marketing to graduate schools, and also postdocs and anywhere. So
yeah, there's a lot of availability. Oliver Bogler: And is there just one one application
cycle a year or how does that work, Laura Prestia: The admission is rolling. So
they can apply at any time, but we do post on our website when we have
current openings? Like, we do now. Oliver Bogler: And we'll be putting links in the
show notes so people can find your website and see what's going on right now.
Great. So in addition to these fellowships, you also have training opportunities, right?
You have the Technology Transfer University. Laura Prestia: Yeah, so that's an internal-to-NIH program
available to NIH staff. And it talks about all of the different processes of tech transfer,
so goes into … its seminar based over maybe a cou
ple of months. And it's taught by
NIH tech transfer staff for scientists, for tech transfer managers who are
just joining NIH and the community. Oliver Bogler: So it's kind of a good starting point. If
someone is sort of curious about this domain. Laura Prestia: Yes. There's no application for
Tech Transfer University. Oliver Bogler: Got it. And then there's an
Ambassador Program as well. Laura Prestia: Yeah, so the Ambassador Program, that
was the passion project that I started with two o
ther fellows when I was a fellow here, and we all had that same thought process. Why
don't scientists know about tech transfer? So we started this program to help spread more
awareness about tech transfer and how that could be useful to scientists in the lab
and also as an alternative career. Oliver Bogler: And then, last, but by no means least,
there's a relatively new program, right? The Transition to Industry Program,
which do you help develop? Right? Laura Prestia: Yeah, I worked. I wor
ked to implement
it. It was not my brainchild. But yeah, so that is for NCI Center for Cancer Research
postdocs or research fellows who are already here working on an invention and working on that
in the lab. So they have a patent application has either been filed or is pending, or our
office has recommended that a patent be filed for the technology they're working on. And they're
interested in further developing this technology, taking it to market and they can, they have a
goal to work i
n industry themselves, or maybe even start their own company. So we kind of help
teach them more about tech transfer. We teach them about Small Business Innovation Research
Development grants. I recently heard Michael Weingarten in a previous podcast. Anyone wants
to go back and hear more about SBIR. So we have, it's half tech transfer half SBIR training for
fellows who want to move into industry. Oliver Bogler: Great, and we're gonna learn more about that after
the break. But lastly, then
I'm curious. Laurie, and Laura, what led you into science?
What led you into this particular line of work? I wonder if you might share with our
audience a little bit about your journeys? Laura Prestia: Yeah, so I already alluded to I kind of learned
by being burned. But when I became interested in learning more about tech transfer, I
asked my PI in the lab, and I was like, What have you heard about this? And you know,
how can I learn more? I'm really interested in it. And he said, Well, may
be you should
talk to Laurie Whitney: . I was like, Oh, okay. And it turns out, Laurie was in… She was
a neuroscience graduate student back when at my university. So I reached out, she was at NCI
as a supervisor, in tech transfer at the time. And I just asked her all of the questions. We
had and a really nice informational interview, and she let me know everything that you
know, I should do to really learn whether or not I wanted to move into tech transfer. So
I started working in the tech
transfer office at my university to gain experience and really see
if this was what I wanted to do. After my PhD, I took a class at the law school next door and
tech transactions and intellectual property. And I worked with our business incubator that
was attached to the school to learn about the business side. And eventually I ended up
joining NIH as a tech transfer fellow. Oliver Bogler:
Now, here you are. Laura Prestia:
And here I am. Oliver Bogler:
What about you, Laurie? Laurie Whitney
: Yeah, so we spring from the same sort of roots,
Laura, and I do. So yeah, we I was the generation ahead of her and graduate school. And we both got
our PhDs in neuroscience from the same place. And I when I was in graduate school, ended up doing
a postdoc at NINDS here at NIH. And so I worked as a postdoc for three years, and really enjoyed
it. But you know, a lot of the great things about working at the NIH, and there are many, one of
them is that they have things like this that we're do
ing right here. And one of them back then
was that they would have seminars on alternative careers in science. And so my fellow postdoc,
and I would go and listen to the seminars, and one day I came away and had heard one given
on tech transfer. And I kind of turned to the other postdoc I was with and was thinking, what
is this tech transfer thing? And she said, ‘Oh, I know. Because back in my, when I was in grad
school, I did a little rotation in our tech transfer office’. And so she expla
ined to me
what it was. And I said, ‘Oh, that sounds kind of interesting’. So I went and I got to here
at NIH, we have this wonderful organization called the Foundation for Advanced Education in
Sciences or FAES. And they offer classes and so back then there was one technology transfer class
offered, now I don't even know how many there are, probably 12 or something. They're amazing. So
I took that one class and it was, you know, Wednesdays, I think from like, 6 to 9pm or
something. And I
took it and thought you know, after working in the lab all day, I'd be kind
of like ugh, and I loved every bit of the class, I stayed fully awake for all of it, enjoyed
the content immensely. And through the class, like Laura mentioned, a lot of the tech
transfer profession, professionals at NIH, teach the classes and so got to know them and
ask a lot of questions and got introduced to the fellowship program at NCI in our office and
then became a fellow and then stayed because it's awesome
and wonderful and I can't imagine
working anywhere else because it's fabulous. Oliver Bogler: Fantastic, thank you for sharing. Closing, then
I wonder what advice you might give to people who are listening who are perhaps, focused primarily
on research at this stage in their careers, but are thinking about other things to do
maybe tech transfer, what's your advice, Laura Prestia: The advice I would give is just talk to people and
try to experience the the work that you might be doing in wha
tever field it is, whether it's tech
transfer, or something else. And I think too, if an opportunity does not exist, try to create
it, because none of the internships or experiences that I had in grad school, toward tech transfer
existed before I found them and worked with people to give me a chance to take them. So I think, you
know, just because something isn't there doesn't mean that you can't still get the training and
create something out of nothing for yourself. Laurie Whitney: I woul
d agree, I think the most important thing
for anyone not just in tech transfer is if you know you think or you think you're interested in
a field is to do informational interviews. People who work in the field are almost always thrilled
to have conversations with people to share their knowledge and share their enthusiasm.
And it gives, really gives you a flavor for the job. And I think especially technology
transfer is this huge field. It's not you know, it's just such a broad field and our
office, I
would sell our office and a fellowship in our office on the fact that we do soup to nuts tech
transfer, we do patenting, we do licensing, we do collaborative agreements. MTA, CDAs, cooperative
agreements, we do marketing, we do just everything you can imagine. So you really get a good
sense of what goes on in each of those areas, get some experience at it. Because you might
decide that you really enjoy you know, patenting more, and you want to go work at a law firm or
something.
So you can sort of find the area that you really love. Or maybe you decide you love all
of them and you want to stay, which happens a lot in our office. So really doing informational
interviews, I think is really important. Oliver Bogler: I will take that as an offer to put your
contact information in the show notes. Laurie Whitney: Absolutely.. We'd love to chat with
people and like I say most of the people and not boast but a good,
fair number of the people in our office were fellows at
some point.
So we really enjoy it. Yeah. Oliver Bogler: Great. Well, thank you both for coming on the
pod and sharing about this important work. Laura Prestia:
Thanks for having us. Laurie Whitney: It was fun. [music]
Oliver Bogler: The NCI wants to hear from
you about what we are doing to support early career cancer investigators. We have released a new Request
for Information or RFI. It is entitled Inviting Comments
and Suggestions on the National Cancer Institute’s Support of Early Caree
r,
Mentored Cancer Researchers and Trainees. NCI is committed to supporting the training
and development of the next generation of the cancer research workforce. We are seeking
input on our existing approaches and your ideas for innovations we might explore -
all designed to improve how we support you. We invite suggestions and comments on all the
career stages we support from middle school, high school, undergraduate and graduate studies through postdoc and fellowship
to early research in
dependence. NCI is interested in your opinion on how our
grant awards are structured and positioned and whether they could be improved to meet the
needs of a diverse cancer research workforce. Your feedback on this matter
would be greatly appreciated. Responses are due by December 29, 2023. We’ll put a link in the show
notes, but for questions, please contact nci_earlycareer_rfi@mail.nih.gov. We look forward to hearing from you. [music]
Oliver Bogler: Welcome back. We're now going to turn ou
r
attention to the transition to industry or T2I fellowship, an exciting program in the tech transfer center. To talk to us about
this we are welcoming Dr. Trang Vu: and Dr. Sabina Kaczanowska: to the
podcast. Welcome to both of you. Trang Vu: Yeah, thank you so much for
having us here today. Oliver Bogler: Also still with us is Dr. Laura Prestia:
from Before the Break. So Dr. Vu is a research and development scientist at viTToria
Biotherapeutics, where she's developing CAR T-cell therapie
s for cancer. Before that,
she was a postdoc at NCI and a T2I fellow. And Dr. Kaczanowska is a staff scientist in
NCI's Pediatric Oncology Branch. Before that, she was initially a postdoc fellow and then a
T2I fellow in the same group. But let's start with Laura. Please give us a description of
the goals of the T2I and how it works. Laura Prestia: Sure. So this program was started in 2020, back
when we were really hearing a lot of interest in postdocs wanting to move into industry or get
m
ore experience in translational research and development, but still remain in the lab and
have that additional training on the side. So we worked across various offices in the
National Cancer Institute to create this specialized fellowship for them. And it allows
a postdoc in the Center for Cancer Research to continue working in the lab about 80% of
their time focusing on invention development research to really move along the progress of
an NCI invention. And they have an interest in eithe
r working in industry or moving their
invention towards industry where it can be commercialized and then reach patients.
So they spend 80% of their time in the lab working on this translational research
and then the other 20% of their time is spent learning about entrepreneurship, tech
transfer, commercialization, small business, innovation, grantsmanship, and all sorts of
different things that will help them not only move the technology towards industry,
but also help them in their career
, whether or not they want to go into industry
themselves, maybe they wanna start a company, maybe they want to work in biotech,
or even if they want to remain in the federal government academia and really do that
translational type of work. So the curriculum really focuses on translational research
and development over the two years. Oliver Bogler: And just to make sure I'm clear on
this. It's restricted to fellows and graduate students and research fellows
and postdoctoral scientists and
visiting fellows in the Center for Cancer
Research, NCI, is that correct? Laura Prestia:
Yes, that's correct. Oliver Bogler: So if you find this program interesting listeners,
maybe think about joining CCR for a postdoc. Laura Prestia: Exactly. Oliver Bogler: Great, I'd like to turn to our two alums
now. And let's start with you please, Trang. How did you first hear about T2I and what
made you think that this might be for you? Trang Vu: Yeah, so I think that it was probably October or
Nove
mber of 2021, I think. So when I was reading just the daily email from the NCI or the CCR in
there, there was like this awesome new fellowship that's going on and basically just like what
Laura just gave the short description about. And I thought it is really neat because my background
was an engineer. So I went for undergraduate and graduate in chemical and biomedical engineering.
So I always think of how do I make a product and how do I bring something into reality and help
people. And so
at the time I was working on a very interesting project and Dr. Peng Jiang’s lab
and we just about to publish at the time. And we also file a patent for that novel genes that we
found and we think it would be so cool if we can bring that into CAR T-cell and make CAR T-cell
much better for solid tumor. And that was the base of the start for my proposal for the NCI
fellowship, because the whole thing about NCI, the T2I fellowship that was very appealing
to me was that the opportunity to gain
more industry knowledge and try to push your
project from bench top to bedside. Oliver Bogler:
Sabina, same question for you. Sabina Kaczanowska: Thank you, Oliver. It's great to be here. I
actually am part of the inaugural T2I class. So I heard about the program initially through
email announcements, and I went to an information session that was run by Sabina. And it sounded
really interesting because similar to Trang, I've always had an interest in translational
research and taking techn
ology from the bench, and bringing it to the community and trying to
develop new therapies. So I applied and we had, we were in a similar position. We had just put in
an invention update report and we're going through the process of submitting a patent application for
our technology. And it was kind of a black box, like neither myself nor my PI really knew what
the technology transfer process entailed and how a patent became a patent and how all the
intellectual property protections worked.
So it was just really interesting for us
as we were starting this project and thinking about bringing it to the clinic,
how we can kind of look to the future and plan for translating it beyond just a clinical
trial at the NCI, but into a technology that could one day be taken up by a company and
actually commercialized into a product. Oliver Bogler: So Sabina, when you became
aware of this opportunity, did you immediately bring it to the attention
of your PI? Is that part of the process?
Sabina Kaczanowska: I did, yes. And she was very supportive and
she had tried to kind of submit invention update reports in the past and hadn't
had a lot of success moving forward through the patenting process. And I
think for us, and especially for me, I didn't learn about intellectual property
at all in graduate school. I didn't know what technology transfer was. So even knowing
what is patentable, what's not patentable, what you can do before you submit a patent
versus what information
you have to kind of keep close to your vest before that application
is submitted. All of that information was brand new to us. So I think it was very helpful because
my PI is also very passionate about bringing new technologies into the pediatric oncology space
and how to bring that research forward. Oliver Bogler: So, Trang, what about you? Did you have
conversations with your mentor early on? Trang Vu: Yeah, I did. So it's similar to Sabina. When I saw
the email and thought it was interes
ting, I showed it to my PI and he was very supportive because at
the time we also trying to explore that new genes that we found and the function of that and having
all the potential. So the T2I program is really great because it's not just helping the fellow,
but it's also an opportunity for us to gain more traction in our research and getting our research
out there, getting collaborations and feedback from all the experts in the field as well. So
we both were really on board about this. O
liver Bogler: And so what was it like to
apply for the fellowship? Trang Vu: So I remember, so at least for me it was coming up
with like a full project proposal and just trying to come up with ideas and think of how I'm gonna
make this happen. So it's not the first time I wrote a project proposal, but it feels like the
most formal and the first time that it's like really more on me and I was like helping my
PI so I thought it was really neat. Yeah. Oliver Bogler:
How about you Sabina? Sabi
na Kaczanowska: I believe it was the same process at the
beginning, but yeah, submitting a proposal for the research and specifically in a way
that had clear milestones over the two years of the program. And it was very specific
in terms of what you can accomplish in these two years and how those milestones
will help you advance the technology. So it was a little bit of a different way of
thinking about a grant because you're not just, your end result isn't just, I want to publish
a paper.
It's how do we move this technology forward and make it more attractive potentially
for company interests to do a CRADA or license the technology. And how can we generate data
to attract those kind of industry partners? Oliver Bogler: What about your own personal
goals? Like in a fellowship often, the applicant is also talking about their own
career. Was that part of the application? Sabina Kaczanowska: Yes, it was. Thank you for that reminder. It's
been a couple of years. But yes, we also
have to write a personal statement. And I … I've
always been interested in industry. Honestly, if you asked me 10 years ago, if I saw
myself being at the NIH for so long, I would, I would have been surprised. But the NIH
is a very translational place. So in that way, it's kind of similar to industry. But
I've always wanted to go into industry and technology development to try to bring drugs
to the public. And in terms of my background, I've always been interested in kind of that
area. I a
lso studied economics as an undergrad, and it's just a kind of came full circle
of bringing the science and the business aspects together and learning more about them
together, because biotechnology is kind of a unique field in terms of how you integrate
the science into your business models. Oliver Bogler: Trang, let's start with you. What was
it like being in the T2I fellowship? Trang Vu: Well, I guess the first one was surprisingly
intense for me for the first month. Laura knows. So, I m
ean, because I've been on other
fellowships before, but I think when I get into T2I, we started off with a boot camp right
away. With a technology transfer boot camp. So, I think the whole experience was very immersive
and is right on the very beginning. It's a get go, start learning, start putting yourself out there.
And besides just tech transfer and learning about patent law and business, for me, T2I really
helped pushing me out of my comfort zone and pushing my border. Um, cause what I
like the
most based on all the knowledge that we learn, is that the ability, the opportunity to
meet fellows from different background, people who are doing just like tech
transfer and people who are working at FDA, different institute as well, and talking
to people in different path really helped to expand my horizon and helped me
learn what I like and what I don't like. And Laura helped me here because I'm
blanking right now, but I remember last year, in last November, September to Novem
ber,
we have a program, I forgot the name. Laura Prestia: Yeah, it's called the Advancing Innovations
through Mentorship or AIM program. It's our internal I-Corps, which is in a lot of academia, institutions and other organizations. So
yeah, that's our internal version. Trang Vu: Yeah, but that program, what I remember, one of
the things I appreciate the most was that we, as part of the assignment, we have to reach
out to 20, 30 experts in the field to talk about what is their experience an
d what they
think is still missing or lacking in the field and how may our project or product fill
the gap. And that helped me gain some like a new understanding in what I am trying
to working toward in the cell therapy field, but also just the sheer skill of reaching
out to people, cold email and talking to other people. I was very surprised to
realize that most of the time people are super helpful and super friendly and yeah, I
think this was a really nice experience. Oliver Bogler: Sabi
na, you were part of the first
class. Was your experience similar? Sabina Kaczanowska: Yes, ours was a little different in that our
program started January 2020. So our bootcamp started in person and then quickly everything
switched to being virtual. But it was very quickly adapted. I thought the instructors … at that time
we were in the technology transfer bootcamp part of the program. And the instructors really did
adapt to the virtual format very effectively. So I thought it was very inf
ormative because
all of that information, the patenting process, the types of agreements that NCI does through
its tech transfer office, all of that was really new to me. So it was great to see what the
technology transfer office does and what we're asking of our technology transfer manager on a
daily basis, specifically in the context of our project and how we can best move our technology
forward together through that process. But the other really, key benefit, I think,
from the program t
hat I personally thought was really great networking. And Trang mentioned
networking with peers, which was great to meet people that also have a similar interests on
campus. But beyond that, being able to work with the SBIR or Small Business Innovation
Research Development Center here on campus, as well as taking courses through FAES, which
are run by local experts and leaders in industry, people who work for venture capital, they
would bring in speakers from all different areas of industry
, from the US Patent Office,
from different institutions that fund biotech in Maryland. So it was a really great networking
opportunity to interact with these people in a small group setting and really learn about
all the different aspects that goes into starting a company. But beyond that, just
moving a technology forward and all the different components and stakeholders
that are involved in that process. Trang Vu: Oh yeah, we're just about to mention,
I was saying that I'm so glad that y
ou mentioned about SBIR because it's such
a very unique opportunity, I feel like, because most of the time as PhD and postdoc,
we try to write grant and submit a grant, but for once we got to sit on the review board and
be on the other side, see how the whole process going and shift our gear of thinking to become a
reviewer. So yeah, I felt very privileged actually to be able to have that experience because
it just changed your viewpoint a little. Oliver Bogler: Yeah, you learn so much from
being on the
reviewer side, I think, when it comes to any kind of application. So, Sabina, you are
still at the Pediatric Oncology Branch. So, I'm curious, how did the T2I fellowship
equip you for doing what you are doing now? And what are you exactly, what
exactly are you doing right now? Sabina Kaczanowska: Yes, that's correct. So I am still in the same
laboratory I was in when I participated in the T2I program. It's under the leadership of Dr.
Rosie Kaplan for the tumor microenvironmen
t and metastasis section. And we are developing
technology using genetically engineered myeloid cells for the immunotherapy of cancer. And
that's the technology that my T2I program revolved around and that we're trying to
move forward into the clinic. So as you know, that is a very long process. We've been
working closely with Eric Cheng in the tech transfer office to file multiple patents
at this point from an intellectual property standpoint. But then clinically we're working
on the deve
lopment of the manufacturing process with the Center for Cell Engineering and
trying to put together our IND package to start a first in human trial of these
genetically engineered myeloid cells. Oliver Bogler:
Just expand that acronym for us, our IND. Sabina Kaczanowska: Oh, sorry, investigational new
drug application. And that's a filing that you need in order to perform
a clinical trial in human patients. Oliver Bogler: It's quite a major milestone
for any new therapy, right? Sabina Kacz
anowska: Yes, yes, it is. And there are a lot of components
that go into it. And the technology transfer really has to happen in parallel with that. So
while we're moving that the research part for it in the science forward, we also need to move
forward with our intellectual property filings, as well as trying to gain kind of industry support.
So at the NIH, we can do a phase one clinical trial. But really most things beyond that, once
you go, especially the phase three, and we're gonna nee
d industry partnership to really move the
technology forward. So we're trying to look ahead, engage where, where we can get those industry
partners and try to license the technology. And a big success story from the NCI that has done
this effectively is from Steve Rosenberg's group in the surgery branch. They were able to take
their T-cell technologies and work with Kite Pharma and really bring that to a product that is
now available. These CAR T-cells are now available to patients. So that
's kind of the big pie in
the sky - is trying to get our science to a point where we can partner with industry and bring
a new drug to patients who really need it. Oliver Bogler:
That's a fantastic goal. So Sabina, are you then, is it fair to say you're the local expert in
this tech transfer process on the lab side? Sabina Kaczanowska: I wouldn't say expert, but definitely an
ambassador. I think learning and working with the Technology Transfer Center has
really improved my confidence in ta
lking about their mission and really getting other
people excited about what their office is doing. So I think it's so important. And at
least in my science training, there is a big gap in terms of knowing about what you have
to do to be successful in this process. The fact that you have to file before you have
any public disclosures and thinking about what about your science could lead to a patent.
And you really have to think about that early on in your project. And then as you develop
y
our project in the lab, thinking about what indications you want to go into becomes really
important and different milestones like that. I think it really does come back to the lab and
how we design our experiments moving forward. Laura Prestia: And Sabina, I remember you had several
offers from industry at the end of T2I too, right? So you had your choice
if you wanted to come… Sabina Kaczanowska: That is true. I, um, I was very fortunate to have
people approach me after, um, talks at meet
ings, uh, and after our paper was published, especially,
and, um, and try to recruit me to industry and, uh, part of me wanted to go, but on the
other hand, I was really invested in the, in this project and I think I have a really
unique opportunity to help bring this forward. So industry will be waiting for me, but right now,
um, I'm here at the NCI and I'm excited to try to push this forward. And I don't think that would
be possible without the tech transfer office and all the information
from the T2I program that
I can now bring back to my PI. And we kind of, she is an honorary T2I member. She was very
involved in the process and very supportive of me being in this program. So I think we
both gained so much from participating. Oliver Bogler: So Trang, you took your T2I experience into the
private sector, into a small biotech company, I understand, viTToria. Tell us
what made you take that path. Trang Vu: I feel like it took me a while to actually know
what project and exa
ctly what field do I want to be for my career until I started the project
with CAR T-cell. And I think since the day that we started working on it and started talking
about it, it just clicked to me that I want to be in this field and this is where I want to
grow my career in. So I was very excited and engulfed in the project that we were working on
for the T2I program, which was a gene-edited CAR T-cell. And it was so happening by chance for
me that a couple months ago around in March or s
o I got approached by a company wishing for
my current company right now through LinkedIn and they are looking for a scientist with gene
editing a CAR T-cell background So it's exactly the same everything exactly the same as always
ways wanted and I knew that I always want to go back to Philadelphia as well because my family
is here and Philadelphia is developing as a cell, cell and gene therapy bio-hub of the northeast.
So the company that I'm working in is called viTToria biotherapeutics
and when it was
founded, co-founded by Dr. Marco Ruella and Dr. Carl June in UPenn. So everyone know Dr.
Carl June and Dr. Rosenberg. And I gotta say, I was a little star struck when I look up the
company and I saw Dr. Ruella and Carl June as scientific advisors on the company. And I was
really interested in the product itself. So when I started at the company, this
is a very small company, we are a startup with less than 10 people. And when I joined in
the Spring, we are in the process of
filing an IND as well. And in fact, that what I was
working on in the past six, seven months, and as of this Monday, the past Monday, we
are officially a clinical stage company. Oliver Bogler:
Congratulations. Trang Vu: Yeah thanks. So this is a, it's been
a whirlwind because I feel like, I feel very lucky cause I knew I want to work
in the CAR T in the CAR T space. And then this job just transitioned so smoothly with what I've
been working on and trying to push in the T2I, which is bringi
ng a gene edited CAR T-cell
into the clinical trial. And I want, so I want to say like my current experience right
now is not really a transition, but rather like an extension of my T2I program, I feel like, because
previously I keep thinking of what kind of study do I need to do to show efficacy, how much better
it is and all of that. But the past six months, what it's really taught me during the
IND is that how safe the product is, what are the toxicity and all type of different
hurdle o
r even as trying to think in the business side of how much lentivirus do we need and all
of that in relation to like the capital of the company. So. Yeah, I thought it's been a
real eye-opening experience so far. Oliver Bogler:
Great. Well, thank you for sharing that. I'd like to take a small step back. Since
we're a career-focused podcast, I'm always interested in learning how people
first became interested in science. Trang, why don't we start with you? I know you've
talked about your eng
ineering background, but even before that, what made you think
engineering was something you wanted to do? Trang Vu: If you ask me maybe 12, 13 years ago, I would
never think I'll become a scientist, let alone, be a cancer scientist. Because I immigrated here
when I was 18 with my dad and no one in my family was in college before. So I was the first one
to go to college. And I remember that when, before I leave, I had a conversation with my
grandfather who was actually in the hospital for a
couple weeks at that point. And he told me
that ‘when you go to the US, do not give up on your education. Like go to college. If you cannot
get into college, try to go to a community and work your way up. Just don't give up’. So that
become like a real big motivation for me. And when I come to the US, everything is very
different. And I don't really know which career to pick, really. I just know math and chemistry
was my strength. So I chose chemical engineer. But the more I go deep into m
y study, I realized
that I really want to help people and have a stronger impact on the healthcare. So yeah, so
that made me do research in biomedical engineer and then I got a fellowship, worked in a cancer
center in Amsterdam for a couple months and I saw like all the patients and get all those work
there. So that made me apply into the NIH, which I think was an unmatched opportunity.
And that in a short time, like changed my life because I just feel so lucky to get all the
opportunity a
t NIH and feel like everyone is just very open about collaborating and helping each
other and my two fellowship that I have at NIH, the iCURE program and T2I have gave me a
tremendous just mentorship and support. So yeah, I feel like it's not a straightforward path, but
I'm really happy with my career right now. Oliver Bogler: Yeah, it sounds like you have, you know, you found
your way to a great project and a great pathway. So that's fantastic. Sabina, what about you?
How did you first get
interested in science? Sabina Kaczanowska: Yes. So, um, I think my interest stemmed from,
from nature. I mean, growing up with my family, we went camping a lot. We went hiking. We traveled
over the country to the National Parks. Um, and my parents are very knowledgeable about just
the natural world. They would know what kind of tree something was, and we'd learn about the
animals. And I was just really into biology, uh, from that sense. And then going through school.
In high school, I took
every biology class I could. And originally, I wanted to be a marine
biologist, orca whales were my favorite animal. But kind of the day-to-day lifestyle of that,
I don't think I would have enjoyed very much. So I kind of tuned my passion for biology and I
really wanted to do something that was impactful to the world and to healthcare. So I think that
really drove me towards biomedical research. And I knew just personality wise, like I really
didn't want to be a doctor from the physician a
spect of things. So that really drew me towards
research. And I went to University of Maryland, College Park for my undergraduate work. I did
a double degree in biology and economics. And then I went to graduate school up in Baltimore
with the University of Maryland Medical School and that was my first really translational lab
experience in a cancer immunotherapy lab. And I loved it. I thought it was very exciting and
interesting and relevant. And it was right, not quite at the beginning, b
ut it was still
pretty early kind of in the immunotherapy field. And it's really exploded so much
over the last decade with the different types of approaches and technologies that are
being applied to cancer immunotherapy. So I was just really excited about the
science and about the outcomes. I mean, you look at some of the responses that you
get from immunotherapy and it's really just mind blowing what kind of differences can make
for patients. So, and that's kind of my career trajectory
is pretty straightforward, but
still excited about it nonetheless. Oliver Bogler: No, for sure. I mean, when I was 12, I
knew I wanted to do biology. So I get that totally. In closing then, I wonder if
you have any advice. Let's start with you, Sabina, for our listeners who are perhaps
themselves not yet familiar with the world of tech transfer, but interested in
it. What would you suggest to them? Sabina Kaczanowska: I would suggest to look into it and learn as
much as you can and take ad
vantage of these opportunities at the NCI or outside
the NCI. Every major university has a technology transfer office. When I was in
grad school, I didn't know that existed, but they do. So if you're interested
in anything, just go out and talk to people. And I think as Trang mentioned, that was
a big kind of skill that I think a lot of people learned through the AIM program is just not
being afraid to contact people and talk about, to ask them questions and learn
from their experiences. A
nd that can apply to advancing your science, but
I think that can also apply to advancing your career. So just get out there,
talk to people, apply to programs, and learn as much as you can to find out
what you like and what you don't like. Oliver Bogler:
Trang any advice for our listeners? Trang Vu: Yeah, I would say my advice is quite similar
to Sabina. I think nobody knows exactly what they want to do when they grow up or 10 years from
now. And the only way you learn from it is, expose y
ourself as much as you can and gain experience
and talk to people. And maybe something that is such a dream to you, well, after you expose it,
you don't like it anymore and vice versa. So just put yourself out there in all the experience,
all valuable experience in my mind. Oliver Bogler: So Laura, we've heard about this great program
at NCI inside the Center for Cancer Research. Are there programs like this elsewhere
at other universities? Sabina mentioned that all universities have tech t
ransfer
offices, but do they all have T2Is? Laura Prestia: That's a great question. I know for the NIH,
we are one of the first, maybe only, programs. I know the National Institute on Aging saw our
program and started to try to create something similar over there. I'm not sure … I haven't
kept up with it to see where they're at. So I don't know if maybe we're the trailblazers here,
but we usually only have funding for two fellows each year and so it's still quite small. We do put
a lot of
training into those fellows. So there's a lot of preparation that goes on and coordinating
amongst the different offices SBIR and TTC. Yeah, I think that, you know, I hope that maybe
others out there will hear this podcast and learn more about the program and the success of it, not
only for the career development of the fellows, but of the translation of the discoveries
and new inventions coming out of their labs and maybe incorporate some similar trainings
at their organizations or univers
ities. Oliver Bogler:
And if they are listening and are interested, I guess it'd be okay if they
reached out to you, Laura, to learn about how you built this program and
maybe how they could build one of their own. Laura Prestia: Of course, yeah, it was definitely
a collaboration across like multiple people and offices and I'm happy
to share how we made it happen. Oliver Bogler: Great, well thank you, all three of you, for
sharing about the T2I. Really appreciate it. Laura Prestia:
Thanks f
or having us. Sabina Kaczanowska:
Thank you, Oliver. Trang Vu:
Yeah, thanks for having us. Oliver Bogler: Now it's time for a segment we call
your turn because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that
they would like to share. If you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn. Send
us a tip for a book, a video, a podcast, or a talk that you found inspirational or
amusing or interesting. You can send those to us at NCIICC@nih.gov. Record a voice memo
and send
it along, we may just play it in an upcoming episode. Now I'd like to invite
our guests to take their turn, Laura. Laura Prestia: So I love coffee. And in particular, there is
this little coffee shop in my hometown of Utica, New York, that has the most delicious
coffee. It's called Utica Coffee Roasting Company. And you can order it online. I'm
not paid by them for anything. I just love their coffee. And if I could recommend a
flavor, the cannoli is really good Oliver Bogler: Okay. So if y
ou're in Utica, that's
where you need to get your coffee. Laura Prestia: Yep. Or find them online, which we still we
ordered my husband and I order from Maryland. Oliver Bogler:
Fantastic, Laurie? Laurie Whitney: Well, so Laura and I were joking about this a
little bit before we got here about, you know, what do we love and what might we recommend?
And so we're really solid upstate New York girls were really ra ra upstate New York girls. And so I
think I would go to Wegmans because I grew u
p with Wegmans. And, you know, they're a good upstate
New York group. So unlike others in my office, I don't love to cook and so I love to go there
because I love all of their food and all their prepped food and I love their pesto sauces.
So there it is a weird fact. So good. Oliver Bogler:
And that's the grocery store I imagine? Laurie Whitney: Yeah. Wegmans, you should know that.
Everybody should know that. Oliver Bogler: Everybody should know that even if they've
never been to upstate Ne
w York. [laughs] Laurie Whitney: Yeah, even though I'm from
Corning. I'm still going to plug a Rochester group. So
I guess that's okay. Oliver Bogler: Well, thank you for bringing that regional
flavor to our show. Thanks very much. Laurie Whitney:
Thank you. Oliver Bogler: So go ahead, Trang, what book are you
recommending and what's it about? Trang Vu: Well, I'm recommending the book called A Lesson
in Chemistry, and I believe it just has become a show on Apple TV, I think. And it's just
talking about being a woman in science, and it was back on Sabina. When was
that? Was that in the 1950s, I think? Sabina Kaczanowska:
I'm not sure about the time frame. Yeah. Trang Vu: Yeah, but I thought it was quite a fun
read and also it's just very relatable. Oliver Bogler: Interesting. Yeah, thank you very much. I
appreciate that recommendation. I'm going to make a recommendation of my own as well, just
to close out. I'm going to be recommending the All About Grants podcast from the NIH
. It's
from NIH's Office of Extramural Research and has a ton of information about how to apply
for grants and put your best application forward. If you check out their website, you
can see the episodes arranged beautifully by area and stage of grant applications.
So you can listen to all the episodes, but you can also zero in on the content that's
most relevant to what you're working on right now. Shout out to the host, Dr. David
Kosub and his producer, Omar McCrimmon, for leading the way
here at NIH in all things
podcast. A link will be in the notes. That’s all we have time for on
today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining
us and thank you to our guests. We want to hear from you – your stories,
your ideas and your feedback are always welcome. And you are invited to take
your turn to make a recommendation we can share with our listeners. You
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I'm your host Oliver Bogler: from the National Cancer Institute and I look forward to sharing
your stories here on Inside Cancer Careers. If you have questions about cancer or comments
about this podcast, email us at NCIinfo@nih.gov or call us a
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Cancer Institute. Thanks for listening.
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