Orr Group TALKS: "Crypto Philanthropy for Nonprofits and Donors"

- Hi, everybody. Welcome to our Orr Group TALK on crypto philanthropy. We have Pat Duffy here and we're just gonna wait about two minutes while people are being invited into the room and then we'll get started. Pat, where are you joining us from, today, while we wait for people to be admitted? - I'm in Tampa. - Tampa. I'm in New York City. And I'm guessing that it's a lot warmer where you are. (laughs) - It's been cool. - Oh, really? - For our area, like, getting into the high 40s at night somet

imes and then like, you know, like, high 50s, low 60s during the day. We're getting back toward 70s, though. Let me see what the weather is, today. I haven't been outside, unfortunately. - Oh no. (laughs) - 68 right now. - 68, I think we're around 20 degrees, 29 degrees or something here in New York, but it looks sunny in here. - Yeah. - Oh, we've got someone from Canada. I love that. (laughs) It must be colder in Canada. That's my assumption. All right, we'll wait just another minute while we t

alk about the weather. And Minnesota, okay. Canada, Minnesota, I love the reach we have here for our Orr Group conversation today about crypto philanthropy. Hawaii, okay. That may be the best so far. (laughs) Maggie from Philadelphia, thanks for joining. Great to see you. Oh, I love this. Amazing. (Amanda laughing) Hi, Shelly from O'Hare! Oh, this is fun to see. All right, so everyone knows how to use the chat feature, which is great. Pat, why don't we get started? It looks like we've got a lot

of people here already and a lot of enthusiasm. So, I just wanted to thank everyone for joining us, today, and joining our Orr Group TALKS where we'll be focusing on crypto philanthropy. Many of you know us at Orr Group, but for some of you who don't, we are in the business of philanthropy. Our firm has worked with nonprofits for 30 years and has continued to evolve our business offerings with this dynamic sector we service. We partner with nonprofit organizations on everything from designing de

velopment strategies, serving as part of your development team, campaign management events, and even talent recruitment. As consultants, it's critical that we're very aware of emerging trends and opportunities for the nonprofits we work with, and our TALK series is one way we share our expertise within the broader community. We know that there are a lot of questions that have been coming up about crypto philanthropy and cryptocurrency and NFT auctions and blockchain. So, we're excited today to w

elcome Pat Duffy, the co-founder of The Giving Block, to help answer some of these questions. We have actually put together a number of some of the biggest themes and questions that we've heard from nonprofit organizations who are considering accepting cryptocurrency. So, we'll focus on those and then we'll head into an extended Q and A section around 1:40, 1:45 to make sure that we can get to all of the many questions that you have. So, as we're talking, please just include those questions in t

he chat and then we'll get to them around 1:40 or 1:45 and we'll really try to get to as many questions as possible. Of course, if we don't get to them today, you'll be getting our contact information as a followup, along with the recording of this session. And so, feel free to reach out to us to continue the conversation. We're really excited about it. So Pat, why don't we start with hearing more about you and the focus of The Giving Block and then some of the major trends that you tracked in 2

021 in the crypto community? - Yeah, absolutely. Thank you everyone for coming. I'm Pat, co-founder of The Giving Block. The main thing we do is, we help nonprofits fundraise crypto. So, primary solution provider for accepting crypto, converting it to US dollars, issuing tax receipts, dashboard and data analytics and all that good stuff. And then, a secondary item is bringing crypto users and nonprofits together. So, there's like an active strategy component we do with charities where we build c

rypto philanthropy programs. We're getting close to 200 six figure plus programs, which we're really excited about. So like, just consistently building crypto into a fundraising pillar versus like, a pop up and donate crypto option, let the chips fall where they may. And then on the donor side, we build a lot of that connective tissue for them, as well. So we built and run the main crowdfunding platform for donors and for charities and their giving crypto, launched the crypto giving pledge, whic

h a lot of the main exchanges and high net worth crypto players have taken that and give through that program. Created the crypto Giving Tuesday campaign, a community campaign off of the Giving Tuesday foundation, and then a bunch of other campaigns to kinda see as our partnerships with the companies in the space. We run, like, the X company gives day, or create kind of their employee giving portals and all down the line. So, anything in between charities for the most part and the crypto communi

ty, we try to build all that stuff out. And then, in terms of trends, I can jump right into that, or do you have like, specific questions you wanna start off with? - No, you know, give us from your perspective, what you saw, what we've been hearing. It's hard to find, you know, a point of truth on this, so we'd love to hear some of those things that make us understand if we should really be paying attention to this or not. - Yeah, so there's like crypto trends, I guess, and then there's like, th

e crypto giving slash the crypto philanthropy trends. On the crypto trends piece, just at a high level, like one of the big numbers would be the 300 million number that like, different reports are saying we're past that in terms of total number of crypto users, some are saying we're still just below, but that's in keeping with, or just past, now, the total PayPal user base. So that was like, a big, I guess, milestone for the industry. We're either just past it or about to hit that. So, in terms

of the total number of users, I think that's a big context thing that nonprofits are missing. Like, 300 million is a lot of people to have like, a preferred donation method that isn't available in a lot of solutions. Market cap and market dynamics like, very volatile last, you know, 12, 18 months. Important piece is it's a long-term capital gain. So, offset donation method, that's the main thing here, right? It's appreciated in any way, shape or form. It's more incentivized than cash or a credit

card. So, what we're seeing as of last year was like, a big surge in cryptocurrency giving as people kind of learned about the tax incentives. We have, now, at least two crypto tax software companies that have become unicorns in the last 12 months, so that's stripping a lot of tax literacy from crypto users and like, making this form of giving more popularized because it's a great tax offset opportunity. And then yeah, in terms of like, the actual donation volume and the trends, like we, as a p

latform, went from 120 clients at the end of 2020 to just past 1200 at the end of 2021. So, about 10 X in a one-year period, and then still the average donation program, like, total fundraising volume on the crypto side, went up over that period. So like, the growth in donation volume is outpacing even a pretty rapid, nonprofit adoption. That plus NFT fundraising, which I'm sure folks are gonna want to get into, and then like the institutional side of things, a lot more high net-worth older folk

s are getting into crypto, so 95% of hedge funds now, right, either have crypto or they're diversifying into it. These are like, big sort of indicators, so we're seeing a lot more kind of, you know, seven, eight figure donations going through donor advised funds. So like, Fidelity Charitable's like, one of the bigger groups that, you know, we're working with in this industry. And they did, not 400 million encrypted donations, but relatively close, somewhere between 300 and 400 million encrypted

donations going last year. - What was the total amount donated last year in crypto? Do you have those kinds of numbers so we can understand the scale of philanthropy happening, here? - We're working on it. There a couple of weird variables to get into. Well, one thing is like, there's not a lot of data out on this yet, right? So like, in terms of the number of 501(c)(3)s that are fundraising crypto actively, like, they're out there and like, you know that they take crypto and, you know, you can

find them on the internet. Like, the vast majority we're working with directly, but there are like, one-off donations that get made in crypto that aren't publicized where like, a donor will find a nonprofit, they'll set up like a makeshift solution or they'll just like, set it to a wallet or something and then reconcile it kind of off the grid. So like, we're trying to get out there and find what those numbers look like, and then there are donor advised funds, which don't always necessarily publ

ish, like, which exact donation method is coming through, when they look through non-cash assets. So, if Fidelity is any indicator, then you can kind of extrapolate from there and look at donor advised funds that are also equipped to process crypto donations. I think last year is probably maybe a couple dozen, total, is what we set up just on the donor advised fund prompt, but there are a bunch out there that we just don't know if they're taking crypto or doing something else. And then we had a

really big donor of Vitalik Buterin, he's the inventor of Ethereum, and they had publicized donations from Vitalik. One donation in particular was publicized as being over a billion dollars as an individual transaction, but it was a very volatile asset that was going through a spike that was kinda driven by the transaction to begin with. So, there are reports that that donation was worth anything from $20 million to over a billion because it was this crazy kind of mean token that they popularize

d from this one-off billion dollar gift. So, we're trying to reconcile that. So in short, we're gonna do an industry report. That'll be going out in the next couple of weeks. We're trying to get the right number, but like, right now in terms of trackable donations, we're trying to figure out if it's like, below a billion dollars total in terms of like, actually reconciled or just above that billion dollar number. - Alright, so it's pretty big scale is what you're saying and I know one of the poi

nts that we thought was really interesting was the average gift size in crypto philanthropy. Could you talk a little bit about some of those numbers? And I see we're already starting to get great questions, so then we can head into some more detail after we sort of set the stage around this. - Yeah, average donation size in the industry, like different reports have a different number. I think one says 128, 1 says 111 or something like that. I'd have to go look at exactly what they are, but avera

ge, traditional gifts usually look like something in that range for crypto donations on our platform. Across the whole year, it was just about $11,000. It was like, 10,500 until end of the year and then end of year, it was over $12,000 as the average transaction size. The main driver for that is the tax incentive piece. This is like a funny thing too, where we see like, when we do integrations with different nonprofit solution providers and like, plug it into a crypto giving option, we see peopl

e taking their steps, like, trying to add like a monthly giving option for crypto, whatever else it might be, which is sort of reconciled with an average gift size of 50 bucks, a hundred bucks. So, it's weird to kind of break that less intuitive donation process. Nonprofits build their own options too 'cause sometimes they'll be like, prompted with buttons that are like, "You wanna give us 50 bucks?" And it's like, you shouldn't be sending a donor who's doing, like, a tax offset gift. That's usu

ally like, five figures plus in that direction. But yeah, anyway, long story short, it was about $11,000 for good. - Well, $11,000 on your platform with the nonprofits you work with, and then you were saying broadly, the average gift was lower than that? We've got a question in the audience, just from a little bit of articulation, like $118 or $118,000? - Oh no, sorry. Average, I'm trying to think, like, online donations in general, like when you look at US dollars, like credit cards and transac

tions that are sent to nonprofits, like the nonprofit industry reports put those numbers out every year and I think it always floats just above a hundred. It's usually like, 111, 128. So like, when you're taking a credit card donation, for the most part- - So we're saying an average number in the nonprofit sector is about a hundred dollars. The average size gift that you're tracking on your platform with donors, people who have holdings in crypto philanthropy, is about $11,000 per gift. - Yeah,

and then we'll need to look at like, our DAPP partners and like, other platforms, average donation size to reconcile that. I don't know if anyone else's number's being public, but I think it's probably pretty consistent. - Well, it sounds like it'll be an interesting report. Obviously, we would love to see that when it comes out and talk through that further. I've got a question, actually, right now about some of the market volatility that's been happening recently and as fundraisers, we're obvi

ously really paying attention to that and even cautious, maybe, about talking to some major donors right now about their gifts because of what's going on and some of the risk aversion they may have. Is it the same with crypto donors? Like, is the market volatility, is that affecting them right now, or do you see that they have a different approach because it just inherently is a more volatile market in and of itself? - Yeah. I mean, yes to both. So, it depends on the donor's position on an indiv

idual basis. So like, in short, crypto is the best performing asset class in the last 10 years. It's also the best performing asset class of the last five years. So, even if the market loses 80% of its value, it's still up on a multi-year period because it's gone up so much, in short. So like, there's a ton of crypto donors that like, even in bear markets, like, pretty much what happens is that will drive them to exit positions and then accumulate capital gains tax burdens, which increases donat

ion volume for us. So like, when we see when the market starts kind of dumping, we see surges in donation volume, and then when the market starts like, really booming, we see surges because pretty much like, you're thinking about a making crypto donation and you have a Bitcoin that's worth $30,000 a unit. That money gets over $60,000 a unit and you're like, "This is a great time to make this transaction." Because you think it's like, inflated or it's like, this is what I actually think this is w

orth versus like, when it gets too far below a number you're like, "I don't wanna make the transaction now because it's really in my head still worth what it was toward the top." So like, anytime you see a surge in one direction to the other, if they're gonna exit a position or enter a position, that prompts behavior, but like, a really important thing for nonprofits to note is like, the more volatile a market, so as long as you're not holding crypto, which is still exceedingly rare for even non

profits we work with, the more volatility, the better, right? Because all you're looking for is Vs in the market. The further down it goes before it goes up, that means the greater appreciation there is between the time they bought it and then the price it is now, and that's what creates the tax incentive, right? Like, if I buy Bitcoin for a dollar and it's worth a million dollars today, then that means if I try to sell it, I'm gonna own the IRS in, you know, state taxes combined, something in t

he range of $300,000, or I could give that million dollars in crypto to a charity. I get the full million dollar write off. I pay none of the $300,000 in taxes and I take the million dollars I have in the bank, buy a million dollars worth of crypto, and now it's at today's cost basis with zero tax liability. So, in short, like if it goes down really far for a long time, then we'll definitely see like, a dip in donation volume, but that dip is what's gonna create an incentive to give crypto overs

tocks for credit cards once the market bounces back. So like, even if it never goes any higher than it hit last year, if it just keeps dumping and returning back to this position, every single one of those Vs, anyone who buys anywhere in that bottom 50th percentile, has like, a very hyper incentivized crypto position to donate specifically to charity. - So, when we had an opportunity to talk about this earlier this year and I learned this, it seemed to make so much sense to me around a tax incen

tive for donors to be thinking about donating crypto philanthropy and what you just outlined, I think, is really important. We're getting a couple of questions from our audience members who are asking about your services and how you work with nonprofits on either liquidating or holding cryptocurrency that may be donated to them. And I think it would be helpful to hear, too, why you even decided to focus on the nonprofit sector with this technology in the first place. - Yeah, for the second piece

, I mean, just got lucky, more or less. Like, I was working in the nonprofit sector. I was working for a nonprofit at the time and then got into trading cryptocurrency and we just identified this access out of it, that there was nothing built for nonprofits. So it's just like an important part of, I guess, like why it came to be. Like, the way that we built it is pretty much, we went to the nonprofits who were already accepting crypto instead of nonprofits who weren't. So like, we didn't build a

technical solution or a support team or services that layer on top that were designed for nonprofits who don't know anything about crypto. We started from the high end and kind of back down in to the lower end of the markets that we were able to create kind of like a user journey to rent programs for like, your first taking crypto into turning it into a consistent revenue channel. So like, 28 out of our first 30 clients, we just picked up off of like, a BitPay or a Coinbase commerce. They're us

ing kind of like, Shopifys but for crypto, where it's just like, it's the tool that you can take crypto in through, but there's nothing outside of that. Like, if the nonprofit has a nonprofit question or the donor has a donor question, like, the support engine isn't designed for that. There's no services, there's no process, so it's just like, you're kind of on your own. So what we did is, we just built like, really focused on like the support and services side, more than anything. We kind of mi

rrored the original version of like, a BitPay or a Coinbase commerce and we just built that over an institutional exchange account and then started like, adding functionality and things on top to, then, build a superior product as like, a secondary consideration after pretty much making it like, how can we reduce the amount of time it takes to open one of these accounts. How can we turn this application into something that's designed for nonprofits, specifically? How can we like, brace a team or

a board or the marketing folks to like, not head in these wrong directions that are gigantic time sucks and to like, take these certain actions that are non-intuitive? You know, search engine optimizing your donate crypto page versus like, integrating it into your regular donation experience and maybe causing a ton of friction. So, we just kind of went from there, and then the secondary component is like, learning how nonprofits fundraise and plugging crypto in instead of designing like, a one

size fits all crypto plan. We had a lot of nonprofits who were like, really pumped about crypto and we just gotta be like, fun police, where they're like, "Okay, we're with The Giving Block, now." Let's do like, an NFT drop." But it's like, no, we have to mobile optimize this donation experience and, you know, figure out what your crypto fundraising identity is. - That's actually a great question we're getting from the audience and something I know you have a great expertise on. Could you tell u

s about how nonprofits should be making the decision, organizationally, to accept crypto donations? Whether or not they want to do that, or a donor is coming to them with an opportunity, you know, what are the kind of milestones that you see, as far as readiness goes for a nonprofit organization, that they need to be thinking about? And then, why don't we talk a little bit about the upside of accepting cryptocurrency and then spend some time talking more about the risks and considerations that o

rganizations need to think about, as well? So, tell us a little bit about some of those milestones that everyone on the Zoom today is thinking about. - Yeah, that part is like, pretty easy, actually, like whether or not you should be accepting crypto as a baseline. Not how much time you put into fundraising crypto or how you should fundraise it, but like, whether or not your organization should be equipped to take this type of donation. The two main things we look at is like, are you good at fun

draising, and are you good at the internet? Like, in some baseline fundamental sense, like, that's the main two things we talk about. If you are a nonprofit who's looking for like, a lottery ticket, like the get out of jail free card but something like crypto. It's flashy, it attracts that, right? You get a lot of organizations that don't have a stable revenue budget. They don't really have an individual giving program. They don't steward their donors. They run like, one-off events and they neve

r follow up with anybody and like, they have a dead Twitter account from two years ago they never used to post on. It's like, those sorts of things need to get done first, but like, you don't need to have a big budget or a sophisticated program, but like, if you're using social media and like, in a consistent sense that just like, slow building a following and you just get how that side of the house works, then you know how to like, get a donor to give you money based on a call to action across

like the basic channels of like, an email campaign or whatever else it is, then you should definitely be taking crypto. Then, it's a matter of like a secondary consideration. Like, how far in do we go on crypto to begin with? Like, should we really try to like, kick this thing off and, you know, say, hey, we're really early on this crypto thing? There's a lot money out there and it's like, a very underpopulated marketplace from the nonprofit side with tons of donors that are not being, dispropor

tionately, having their needs met. Are we the organization that should be really actively pursuing that? Because that's energy we can also try to fundraise in other ways. It's like, is this where that energy should be going? That part of the equation is more complicated and it comes down to understanding how you fundraise and if you're well positioned. If you're like a tech-centric nonprofit, teaching women to code blockchain in the San Francisco bay area, right, then you've got a board of peopl

e who fundraise and they all came from Wall Street. It's like, yes, okay. Crypto should be one of your biggest priorities, but if you're like a small animal shelter out of like, Wisconsin, but you've got a really active YouTube channel and like, some of the stuff you touch on goes over like, tech that helps animals, that you might actually find a pocket near where you should have a fundraising pillar that plugs into, say, your end of year campaign, then you're in a really good position to be suc

cessful. Other folks should really just like, add the option, follow the baseline best practices and if they start getting traction, then reinvest capital into crypto fundraising because you're getting a proportionate result. That part is very messy. Whether or not you should take crypto is kind of a, that conversation is more or less over if you're ready to take standard donation methods. Like, if you're thinking about Venmo, that you should think about crypto, just put them in order of priorit

y and then add payment methods as you see fit, crypto being one of the standards. - People are asking about some of the similarities with accepting stock gifts and your gift acceptance policies. Can you talk about some of the parallels there from your perspective, and then what you've seen or what you've advised on, as far as updating gift acceptance policies to include crypto donations and how you help organizations communicate that, you know, in the right way to donors? - Yeah, if you're chang

ing your gap now to like, include stocks, you should probably just include crypto and other non-cash assets, just so you don't have to go through a process a bunch of times. So that's one core consideration. It's just like, make it a non-cash asset because the tax piece is going to be the same. The donor experience should be relatively similar. So, you can update those things all at once, but other than non-profits who are like, holding onto the crypto, it's just as simple as taking stocks or an

ything else. You're just saying that this is a type of donation that we're willing to accept. It shouldn't be more complicated than that, so long as your solution is automatically converting it to US dollars, which is what ours does. If you're holding onto it or you're making decisions around like, when to sell, where you're building some endowment on top of it, you have layers of complexity on top of, you know, the original consideration, but it's a simple thing to do. We've got some boiler pla

te stuff. - So building on that, I do wanna make sure that we're thinking through some of the risks and helping people to answer their questions around that, but why don't we talk a little bit about some of the strategies that you have recommended and worked with organizations on, as far as stewarding those crypto donors? So not only, you know, updating gift acceptance policies to accept crypto, how do you actually go about finding those crypto donors and appealing to them? You mentioned needing

to be good at the internet and having social media. What are strategies you've seen for organizations to attract those crypto donors and then actually create meaningful stewardship experiences that might be differentiated from their regular stewardship plans? - Yeah, it wouldn't be one size fits all. It comes down to the way you like, I can just, I guess, give examples so then, organizations can extrapolate from there, based on what they identify with. So an example being like, we had a convers

ation. I guess you shouldn't, no, I guess it's fine to name names. So like, MDA is an example. We had a conversation with them last week. They have their Telethon, right? It's an amazing event. You know, they've got like DJ Khaled and Ryan Reynolds. Like, everyone comes to that sort of thing. So, they were coming in and they were talking about kind of, you know, they haven't used Reddit and these other fora type areas, like, how do we sort of start penetrating into these areas where crypto users

hang out and they were, a lot of nonprofits use, they start kind of crypto first and backend, which is not the way to approach it. You should really start with how you fundraise. So it's just like, identifying, and this goes back to the first half of your question, like, what are the threats, biggest threat with crypto is time, right? Because it's fun and like, everyone knows it's fun and it's very exciting. Like, everyone's press release about taking crypto other than one nonprofit we've worke

d with who had like a really exciting research breakthrough, nearly a hundred percent of the time, if you do a press release on crypto, it outperforms everything else you're doing. It's just more exciting than everything else going on. For whatever reason, people like it. They find it compelling. So, your team could do that too, right? Then, you can start getting into this kind of flashy stuff around NFTs or wanting to have a DAO. Like, if you start getting into the head space, you need to have

a really good understanding of like, how are we gonna graft this onto what we do already. Back to the MDA example like, the conversation was pretty easy with them where it's like, we should really be focused first and foremost on the Telethon. Like, you have all these celebrities. You have all these big brands, You have this really big moment of heightened attention. Would a crypto exchanger company wanna be a sponsor for something like that? It's like, yeah, that sounds pretty compelling versus

trying to get them to sponsor some new crypto specific event blockchain or getting into Reddit. Would a crypto influencer wanna be a part of that? Like, yeah, I mean, if you're the CEO of Coinbase or whatever, would you like to stand next to like, DJ Khaled in some video for a charity? It's like, probably. Makes it a lot easier to get them to a yes. So like, they had this amazing compelling hook. It's like, we should really start here. Like, just forget about what happens with crypto. You have

a corporate sponsorship angle and you have a high net-worth, high value donor slash influencer angle. Let's look at like, how we can have a crypto specific space for them as a part of this event that we can hook them into and then, you know, let's blast that out and see if anybody's interested. Like, that would be one example versus, like, another example would be, I guess, Orangutan Outreach. Like, there was an NFT project called Bored Ape Yacht Club. Orangutan Outreach just was like, you know,

this seems to be parallel to, you know, we're an ape related nonprofit that's getting into crypto at the same time. They were a $500,000 a year budget organization, and it worked, so that's like a shot on goal that they took, rather than trying to build a crypto following from scratch and they, through that relationship and some NFT and crypto fundraising, were able to triple their budget like, in a year. So, they raised over a million in crypto after having raised 500 grand total the year befo

re. So that was, then, 500 grand plus on top of the million raising crypto is like, an amazing outcome. So like, those are like very obvious shots on goals. And then for other organizations, it's like, if you have a really big major gifts program, like Wall Street or tech related overlap, getting the crypto option in front of those folks and creating a space for them there is more important than like, we don't use social, but we're gonna start tackling Twitter because crypto users love Twitter.

That's their main social media outlet. It's more a matter of, are you good at Twitter? Because if that's the case, then yeah. Like, American Cancer Society, last year, just posted that they were taking Doge and it's their best performing social post of all time besides, I think like, two celebrity death announcements. You gotta find, I guess, where your spots are and what works. A lot of the smaller mid-size groups are really just like, we're great at social, so we're gonna go Twitter specific f

or crypto, or we have like a big end of year campaign or gala or an event, like, whatever it is. Like, pretty much gotta sink into whatever works for you guys already, just stapling crypto onto that is the most efficient, usually. - I thought that was such an interesting point. You know, as you were talking about creating Twitter specific feeds for your crypto donors to talk about the impact of crypto giving in the organization. Similarly, creating even a crypto acknowledgement society, you know

, for your donors that are giving cryptocurrency, you know, having a specific acknowledgement but taking what you do and sort of adapting it for these kinds of donors, as opposed to trying to do something brand new for the first time that you may not have like, the expertise for. Is that sort of what you're saying, you've seen, work with organizations, no matter the size of their budget? - Yeah, a hundred percent. A lot of nonprofits wanna like, create a crypto thing, and it's rather than like,

American Cancer doing the cancer crypto fund where it has all the look and feel of a crypto thing, but it's really just them saying they take crypto and then they're gonna take the crypto part of their fundraising, they're gonna apply that to a separate set of grants that they report on separately, separate leaderboard, separate call to action, and then they'll plug that social campaign into their other stuff and then, you know, seven figure plus crypto program comes out of that, getting like co

mpanies and organizations to be the first ones to put a million dollars into this crypto specific channel that's going to their existing research funding pipeline. It's like, they didn't have to build a new program. They didn't have to create a new grant space. They didn't have to create a crypto specific event. They're already doing all this stuff that works. People who wanna invest in that, they just made an area for crypto users to come through specifically and get reporting on their impact s

pecifically. That tends to be it. It's just a matter of like, what's your best hook and weapon that you can use to plug into that? And then you start from there, yeah. - So we're getting a couple of questions in the chat about your services and how you are talking about non-cash and receiving crypto donations. Can you talk about when you do work with a nonprofit client, the process you go through in onboarding and some of the decisions they need to make about working with you and what you have a

s far as the platform is, and then some of the additional services that you've developed to partner with nonprofits? - Yeah, I can show a demo of like, what the actual product looks like, but in terms of the onboarding piece, it's the same as opening like, an institutional brokerage account for the most part. So like, the main thing to understand is like, you wanna think about what cryptocurrencies you take and using what platform and in what way, right? You wanna make sure that you're not getti

ng donations from sanctioned countries or blacklisted addresses. You wanna make sure that it's SOC one, SOC two compliant, compliant with all the regulations that any other financial institution would be. So like, any major crypto exchange for the most part has most of those pieces. The reason we use Gemini over other exchanges who have a lot of those building blocks is like, one, they have a crypto philanthropy specific team now that applies directly to us. So, pretty much their account manager

s and their onboarding process, they let us shape one that's for nonprofits. So you're not just getting thrown at the same person who's like answering some, you know, 20-year-old's question about how they, you know, leverage trade in some, yeah, Altcoin. So like, that piece was important, the application, that process, and then in terms of getting questions answered and what that looks like when it plugs in, we just hook that exchange account into a widget which I can show that just copy and pas

tes on a nonprofit site once they get their account approved and then that's the donation flow. Donor just picks the crypto they wanna give, enters their details, gets a wallet address where they send the donation, and it just like, takes all the complexity out of the generation of dynamic wallet addresses, the receipting for the donor, the pulling in of that donation information, reconciling it with the exchange data, all goes into a dashboard. So, nonprofit just pulls reports out of a dashboar

d, donor gets a tax receipt, everything else kind of gets taken care of in the gateway. - What about some of the decisions in thinking about risk, you know, concerns around anonymous donors, where people may not know who is actually giving them the funds, you know, through the platform, and even something as technical as what happens, you know, as you're talking about a donor makes this seamless, amazing donation, you know, what happens next to the cryptocurrency once it's on your platform? - Ye

ah. The main, I guess, in terms of like cryptocoins that's on the bottom, like, you're saying what happens to the donation flow, right? Like, more or less like, the crypto gets sent to what's actually occurring? - Yes, yeah. People are sort of asking about the journey here and what are the things that are automated that you offer and what are the choices that nonprofits have about what happens once a donation is made to them through your platform? - Yeah, so the choice piece is simple in terms o

f like, what you're getting is US dollars as a nonprofit. So, donor sends the crypto, crypto automatically converts to US dollars, the US dollars get pushed to the nonprofit bank account that they hook up, and that's it from the nonprofit side. If a nonprofit wants to hold crypto, like, we do a lot of treasury management stuff with nonprofits, no nonprofits we work with hold the crypto they receive. They liquidate the crypto and then they buy crypto positioned strategically as a part of an endow

ment, in the same way like a university. Their endowment isn't just the property they've been donated. Like, they receive property and sometimes, they'll decide to keep something or whatever, but it's usually, you know, they're getting the US dollar value of whatever gets donated, and then they're building an endowment based on their own investment strategies. So, if you wanna hold crypto, like, all of our nonprofits will then use a tool that converts into US dollars, and then they'll just purch

ase Stablecoins and earn yield or invest in other cryptos, but that's still, again, exceedingly rare. That's mostly universities and foundations and groups like that. From the process standpoint, like, what's happening is the donor, when they get to the end of the widget, it's generating a dynamic wallet address from the Gemini exchange account. It's now tied to your EIN and 501 C3 so that the closing of the loop is actually compliant. A lot of nonprofits in the early days would just like, pop o

pen a wallet and then they would take the donation from a donor and then like, one, they would have to now open a new exchange account to move it onto an exchange that you can convert it into and out of US dollars, and then to the donor, if they go to the IRS and they're like, I gave this to a 501(c)(3) nonprofit and the IRS is like, "Where is the paperwork that that's a nonprofit account?" And it's like, there is none, that's not great. So, that part is really important that there's an exchange

account in there. The dynamic wallet piece is an important secondary layer. That means every crypto user gets a new wallet address generated for them. That means the users who are giving you donations can't see the full wallet history of your organization. A crypto wallet is fully transparent otherwise, so they can see every transaction in and out. It makes it a security issue if you're holding cryptocurrency, obviously, 'cause they can see that it's a honeypot. And then two, it also subjects p

revious donors to transparency issues where you're showing every new donor, every other donor's wallet address, which donors don't like. So like, that's why we designed it that way. But when they click send, they're just going to any crypto exchange account that they have, entering that wallet address we generate for them, the two field, may click send and it goes to the nonprofit. It's hitting the accounts, the account is set to look for a balance. There's a crypto balance, sell it for the goin

g rate on the exchange based on, you know, liquidity in the order books. It sells for US dollars, so the US dollar balance is then sitting in that account assigned to charity, that US dollar balance gets pushed to the charities on a bi-weekly basis. So, the flow is- - All of that is automated. There's not like a sea float who maybe is on the beach somewhere on vacation and is like, scrambling to do this through your platform. All of these things are automated. It doesn't rely on the market's ope

ning. Like, this all happens. They make a donation, it's converted. The cash goes, you know, straight into an account and the nonprofits receive it on a, you said, a weekly basis or a biweekly basis? - Biweekly, yeah. And that'd be, yeah, the donor gets an automatically generated receipt. And then, in the event that a donor is coming through, trying to get something that isn't listed in our widget, we have something called private client services. That's when donors extend an NFT directly or, yo

u know, they're trying to send a smaller mid cap cryptocurrency. The nonprofit wants to accept, saying it's non-Gemini listed, that we have, you know, a series of donor advise fund partners that have different cryptocurrency accounts for more complex situations that nonprofits don't have to like, individually open and send in accounts to try to deal with these weird kind of uncommon scenarios. - And then, let's talk a little bit about risks and the choice that we've talked about that nonprofits

have with their platform to accept anonymous donations or not. Again, similar to maybe what they would have in a more general gift acceptance policy. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the risk measures that you have in place, in addition to the one that you mentioned around a dynamic wallet and how organizations should be thinking about that, especially if they're concerned about anonymous donors who may have nefarious backgrounds or being able to really manage that? - Yeah, you don't h

ave to is the thing. So, we always get questions like that 'cause like, most of our nonprofits accept anonymous donations. If you don't wanna take anonymous crypto donations, just turn it off. You just tell us when you onboard what you want and if you wanna change it eventually, you can turn it on or off whenever you want and you're just paying us. The majority of nonprofits do accept anonymous, crypto donations just because of like, crypto cultural standards. It's more of a normal way to send a

transaction, but the vast majority of major donors do leave their information, even when they have an anonymous option. So like, most of the anonymous are usually on the smaller scale, anyway. It's a convenience thing, more of like a user experience, but no nonprofit on the platform at any point needs to allow that as an option. It's more just like, if it's in your gift acceptance policy and you do that anyway, then keep it. And if you don't, then, I mean, don't go through hoops. Just don't hav

e that option on. And if you eventually decide that's an important thing to have from like, a human rights standpoint, right? Like, as we get, I think of these examples, we did in Op Ed pretty recently where there's just like, a closeted person sends a seven figure donation in cryptocurrency and they were saying like, they've always wanted to make a major contribution but they would never do that if they had to link their personal identifying information to a transaction of that level, and they

were finally able to do this because they're not out, which we thought was a cool kind of human rights opportunity where they're trying to support something, but they live in an area or they're part of a community where they feel like, you know, they live at a liberal place, they're giving to a conservative, or they live in a conservative place they're giving into a liberal type organization. There's all these sorts of notes we get from anonymous donors where they're like, this is pretty cool. T

he reason that that's allowable and nonprofits aren't concerned about it is because donor forms don't make you more secure. They just tell you who the people are, based on whatever they're telling you in that form. It's not the form the FBI uses at the DA. It's not a form that regulators use to authorize transactions. It's very similar to like, if you go into a CPS and they're like, do you wanna give CPS your information? So, you get like a saver card, and that doesn't change the degree to which

Visa is monitoring a transaction network. So, it's really just a cognitive like, misconception. If you are a nonprofit who just wants to have that to make it less likely for donors or like a bad guy to give you money, that's the case. But like, if they have a legal bank account and they're sending you a transaction in the traditional, financial system, like, they're gonna be able to send you money anyway, even if you have a form, or they're gonna have their transactions blocked, which means the

transaction wouldn't go through. Like, a form isn't actually a security layer. It's more just a gift acceptance policy thing. So, that's why you see like, a save the children or get out of the way road block, like, these gigantic organizations taking anonymous gifts. It's because it doesn't increase your security at all. The exchange is responsible for blocking or authorizing transactions and criminals get caught when they caught or if they're not caught, then you, as a nonprofit, are probably

not gonna catch them, you know? So. - You have a process in place, though, to make sure that gifts aren't being made from banned wallets, right? - The exchange, yeah. So, it's not like we have a crypto payment solution that lives on an island. Like, we work with just the most compliance and like, hyper regulated exchange so that like, the system is actually processing these gifts. It's like, under the exact same regulatory frameworks in any bank account you're using, so if it's a sanctioned coun

try, a blacklisted unit, a cryptocurrency or a wallet, all of those things get taken off the network, and then all of these exchanges all around the world have this connected network through the regulators in different countries and they share that information and then keep that system safe, similar to the traditional financial system. - Great. - Yeah. It's like, yeah. Your coffee shop, you're probably not gonna like, know that someone stole someone else's credit card when they swipe it if like,

Visa doesn't know that. It's really kinda up to the payments, yeah. - You know, so these are really important risks for organizations, especially if their director of operations or CFOs are trying to make these decisions and assess these risks. Some of the other concerns that we have heard from organizations that are thinking about starting to accept crypto have to do with a couple of things. One is the environmental impact that it has, but could you tell us a little bit about, you know, how or

ganizations should be thinking about and talking to, you know, their board members or whomever asking these questions about the environmental and potential negative environmental impact? And also, if you can talk a bit about the perception of equity in cryptocurrency and whether or not this is something that's equitable and if they should be concerned that it isn't? - Yeah. On the environmental piece, it's just kind of like, it's again, it's like, a bit of a logical fallacy. So, it's the example

that we've been giving recently. Like, every time a Tesla hits a person, there's like, calls for you to stop producing them, but there's never like, let's take 10,000 hours of human beings on average and then 10,000 driving hours for Tesla and see which is safer, or look at like, the trajectory and see like, when that's gonna pass that and ultimately increase safety. The same thing is kind of happening with crypto, more or less. So like, is crypto super efficient? It's like, no, or at least pro

of of work cryptocurrencies are not energy efficient. They disproportionately use renewables in a way that other technologies don't, but it still takes more energy than it should on like, a per block basis. But I haven't seen like, anything that I find compelling to say that it's like, less efficient than, say, your traditional financial system. So, it's just kind of a logical fallacy, right? Like, you're taking credit cards and there's just an infinite series of skyscrapers with air conditionin

g and like, millions of cars driving to and from to do the jobs that are getting replaced by like, the code that Bitcoin is just using 'cause there's, you know, miners that are just running that code that replaces, you know, the millions of people that have to build and operate the alternative financial system. In terms of like, what's more energy efficient, I don't know, I mean, they're both pretty horrific, but like, cryptocurrency is at least on track to be much more efficient because as that

process becomes more efficient, it's not like you need, again, millions of people in skyscrapers. So, it's a bit of a waiting game. Like, technologies aren't as efficient as they should be when they start. Everyone had, not everyone had, but people had computers that were like, taking up half a room a couple of decades ago and then stuff gets better. So like, we're definitely excited for it to get more efficient. We wish it wasn't inefficient, but as far as we can tell, it's like, illogical to

say that it's unethical to take it, but like, accepting credit cards is ethical. It's just kind of like, it's a new thing, so people arbitrarily assign it more weight. On a per transaction basis, it's relatively obvious, though. Like, our biggest growing client demographic would be environmental organizations 'cause they're like, moving into this carbon offset base event. So I guess, last thing on that is, it gets more efficient as it scales. So there's, not fake statistics, but misrepresented s

tatistics, like, how much energy and individual transaction takes in crypto. When they say individual transaction, they mean a block, which takes the same amount of energy, regardless if it has a hundred thousand transactions or one transaction in it. So, not using crypto doesn't make it any more or less energy intensive and the more people use it, the more efficient it becomes. So, on a per transaction basis, environmental organizations know that like, they're not adding any negative to the exi

sting cryptocurrency ecosystem by taking a one-off donation and like, the hundred grand that they're getting in crypto that they use for environmental causes is obviously a net positive. So, a lot of environmental groups are actually like, steering into the storm and then like, using it to be like, "We wanna be a part of crypto's carbon offset as it becomes more efficient." And they're using that as a means of like, hooking crypto donors in to sort of become like, a carbon neutral ecosystem. - T

hat's really interesting. What about the equity issue? How do you think about that? How do you talk to your clients about that when they have questions around this? - Yeah, could you clarify, I guess, when you say equity in crypto versus like, the traditional financial system? Like, when you say equity, what do you mean? - Yeah, I think, you know, for a lot of organizations, they've been thinking a lot about DEI related issues and focusing in on many levels, you know, building better boards, you

know, building better teams and thinking about engaging broader communities and more inclusive communities in fundraising in general. So, you know, how does crypto fit into that? Like, do you think that this is something that, you know, a lot of different kinds of people are using? Is it inclusive or, you know, are there still populations that are just left out of this in the US? - Yeah, it's self-selective, which is good. It's not like an existing system. So it's like, the one plus side of the

reason crypto is more diverse than like, traditional finance is like, you're not getting into crypto because of, you know, your dad owns the firm or whatever else it is. So like, the straight white track just kind of breaks out. So like, anyone who wants to get into crypto gets into it. So like, for that reason, it's dramatically younger and it is dramatically more diverse than traditional finance. In terms of whether or not it's like, representative, like no one runs it so it's a matter of lik

e, if individuals want to have efforts like black girls who code and groups we work with who're trying to get certain demographics into crypto more actively, there's no gate-keeping, which is good. It's just a matter of like, whether or not you're interested. So, it's very similar to like, women in STEM type movements where it's like, it is a choice, but then the choice becomes more difficult, based on the individuals who are already in it. Like, it's harder to get men into nursing historically

because it's been like, a female occupied space. So, I think it's still too early to know whether or not like, the early days, that being very male dominated, it was like, all developers, and it was like, heavily male for a while. It was like, 90% male, I think, in a report like five, six years ago and now it's like 67% male. So it's like, bending back really quickly but like, how much of that legacy system makes women less interested in it? 'Cause they think it's like a guy thing, you've seen t

he memes. I'm sure you've probably seen like, a fratty looking guy like, yelling in a girl's ear at a party and it's just like, you gotta see my Bitcoin wallet. Like, people just make fun of Bitcoin bros. How much of that informs who ends up being interested, I think, is a curious discussion but if you're looking at like a donation method versus credit cards, stocks, other finance, like, is it more or less diverse, it would be definitely more diverse in the sense that you're getting a dramatical

ly younger donor on average. And then, if you just look at traditional finance, like stocks and investing, it's definitely more diverse than traditional investment arenas. Is it equitably diverse? Probably not. But yeah, whoever runs points on those sorts of initiatives, you would think a lot of folks in the nonprofit sector, code to inspire, girls who code, groups like that, can hopefully, I'm sure, do more. - I live in the Flatbush area of Brooklyn and it's been really interesting to see so ma

ny urban like, stores accepting Dogecoin and cryptocurrency retail transactions, and that's not something that I would have made an assumption about unless I was walking around my neighborhood and seeing new banners for new types of cryptocurrencies that they accept to buy hats and stuff. It was like really, really cool. We've got a couple more interesting questions I wanna try to make our way through. You know, we haven't spent a ton of time talking about NFTs. You referenced them, but we've go

t a question about NFTs, NFT auctions, and maybe you can give us a quick overview as to how you have worked with them, and the excellent point that you made that in order to be the beneficiary of an NFT auction, you have to accept cryptocurrency. Talk to us a little bit about NFTs and your recommendations for valuing NFT donations, how organizations should be approaching this from a best practice perspective if they have these opportunities or interested in it. That would be so helpful. - Yeah,

this is one of those areas where like, it can potentially be a time suck. It depends on like, how much innovative stuff you're doing 'cause there's like a hurdle, I guess, you have to get over to get into certain layers of it, but there's some very easily accessible areas of it that like, any nonprofit can leverage to fundraise. So I guess like, one important distinction, there, would be like, so in terms of our client base and what informs this, if you look at like, Forbes top 100 charities, li

ke those sorts of groups, you know, nine figure plus, like we're at about a hundred organizations that are like, nine figure 10 figure budgets. So like, a hundred million dollars, a billion dollar plus, those organizations are doing more with NFTs that is more active. So like, we did an auction with Sotheby's at the end of last year, which was like, a really big event. Sotheby's and auction houses or clearing houses getting into NFTs was a big thing in Q4, but then we have the small nonprofits,

like Array in 10 hours or whatever just like, partnering with these individual projects and creators. The platform level stuff that's being done were like, NFTs are being minted on behalf of the nonprofit and their own NFT initiative or their own NFT gallery, that can get done for it down the road but like, 95% of donations we received that we now get millions of dollars of donations every month from the NFT community, 95% of those donations come in crypto, not NFTs, which is kind of confusing.

It's the proceeds that NFT platforms, studios, creators, traders, artists get from their NFT ecosystem, and then that other 5% is they have like, a really hyper appreciated NFT that if they liquidate it, they'll have to trigger a taxable event and they'd rather transfer that directly. That's where we use our, you know, third-party network like a Renaissance Charitable, America's Charities, these DAPPs that we work with for these unique cases that they're individually getting expert at, that's wh

ere those gifts come through. And then, we ran NFTuesday. After our crypto Giving Tuesday, we did an NFTuesday the week after and we got a couple of dozen NFT platforms and studios and creators who like, launched NFTs where all the money went to charities and that raised millions of dollars. But in short, you don't have to make your own NFTs or get into it. If you are individually interested, if you're like an art related charity, you can, but generally speaking, it's the same way with crypto wh

ere like, you're looking at these folks who are out there, a platform, a partnership with an artist, a creator who has some alignment with you, and then they are creating their art, creating crypto proceeds from whatever event is going down where they drop those NFTS, and then those proceeds come back to the charities in the form of a crypto donation. Like, that's the main thing that goes down and that's where the small and mid-sized charities make like, the majority of our base have like, gotte

n into it, but some of the bigger ones are definitely doing their own, like, auctions and drops and stuff, which is cool, too. - That's great. Thank you. And thanks for the question around that, as well, really interesting to hear. And something that we got in the chat as well is around, you know, an example of large organizations that are using crypto philanthropy really effectively and how they're thinking about it. To me, it sounds like you already talked about some of the indicators of, you

don't necessarily have to be an organization with a certain revenue size to, you know, accept crypto philanthropy, or think about crypto philanthropy as part of your fundraising strategy. You do need to have some things that indicate that you will be successful in it, but you know, aside from, okay, you don't have to have a certain size budget to accept it, can you talk a little bit about a case that you've seen of a large nonprofit organization, let's say over $20 million, that is accepting cry

ptocurrency and is doing a really great job at it? What are they doing right? - Yeah, I mean, over 20 million. That's probably like half of the, like, now close to 1500 or so nonprofits. Like, I don't know yet where people set the bar for large. We usually set that closer to the nine figure mark. Like small, we do like a million dollars, like around that area and then below that, usually sometimes, it can be scrolling in terms of stability. The larger nonprofits, like, if we talk about PETA, Ame

rican Cancer Society, Save the Children, United Way, World Vision, I mean, you can go down the, again, like- - And you work with some of these organizations, right? These are all organizations, you work with all of these organizations. Even better, okay. So you know, not just from, you know, reading about it, you know from actually working with these large organizations, how they're approaching it. Okay, thanks. - Oh, yeah. I mean, again, like, organizations with a hundred million dollar budget

or greater, like, we have over a hundred. So, if you look at like the, again, like the Forbes top 50 or if you just take the top 20, like, more than half of those groups are all building crypto fund. Like, if you're a really big organization and you don't have a crypto fund program, like, that would be silly at this point, just 'cause there's so much money and people and it's like, if you're that big and you're not into crypto after it's the best, for me, asset class of, you know, 10 years, then

that would be absurd. Even the ones, some of them don't work with us, but everyone who's on that list is doing something with crypto, I'm assuming. For small, mid-size, like, you can't do everything that's interesting, right? Like, you have to be more careful about what innovation you get into, but for the larger groups, again, like the Cancer Crypto Fund, like, establishing an identity with them was something we worked really hard on at the end of 2020, and then we rode that into 2021, again,

built, you know, like getting to that seven figure program was like, a really big priority for them and it was super doable with like, a pretty light lift. Save the Children, United way, we've been working with for a multi-year period. Save the Children was our first big blue chip client that we worked with, so they have a really serious program. Like, they had a huddle hope campaign that was specific to crypto toward the end of last year. Like, they're getting Op Eds published. Like, they get a

sked to come speak us up. They're much more integrated in the community, same thing with United Way worldwide. Like, they were one of the first charities to take crypto. So, they've been building a really consistent program over time. But in short, I guess for those bigger charities, it's really kind of attacking pillars is what we focus on. So, it starts with an end of year campaign that makes sense and in the month of December, we're gonna dump bags of cryptocurrency, but we see quarter over q

uarter growth. Like, our Q1 last year outperformed our Q4 the year before, like, the space has grown and even outpaced the big surges at the end of the year, but they focus first on that Q4 goal, right? Like, what are we doing at the end of year? What does our email campaign look like? How are we nurturing crypto donors throughout the year? How are we kicking off building a match, going up into crypto giving Tuesday and launching that on the day of, you just have to hook donors in to take the cr

ypto giving pledge, activating those gifts going throughout the month, getting donors to white list well in advance of the deadlines so they don't miss out on sending a gift 'cause they just didn't prepare their account to make the actual transaction. Those types of organizations can think through all of these steps with us slowly over time, and then like, once they get that game plan attack, they're like, let's look at the 360 year round view of how we use our major gifts program to pull in mor

e crypto and like, let's think about like, our corporate philanthropy program. It's like, how do we get crypto companies to sponsor all of our major events and like, make a space for them there? And then it's like, okay, let's get into Reddit because like, all these crypto users on Reddit and they start building a presence and establishing themselves. In the same way Wendy's becomes like a hot, cool Twitter account, they start like, really building a presence in the community. Some of them have

Discord channels. These are very far steps down the road for like, bigger groups, but it all starts with, again, search engine optimizing their page, creating blog posts and content to draw people in off the internet, creating a crypto giving experience that's unique to that non-profit, a leaderboard, a call to action, every hundred dollars in crypto equals X amount of impact. We built out, really, like, a universe for a crypto donor to come through and they're like, hell yeah, I wanna be a part

of that thing. Regardless of the crypto, it's really just like, fundraising best practices and a good call to action, and then the cool crypto strategies come after that. So like, we fund police usually for a quarter or two until everything is like, now we have this thing where we asked an encrypted owner to come in here, they're like, oh Jesus, yes, please. This is cool, I'm in. You know? - That's a wonderful way to conclude our conversation, today. Thank you, Pat, for sharing so much expertis

e. I think there are probably a thousand more questions that people have and I know we weren't able to get to all of them, but thank you everyone today for joining this conversation. I hope you found it interesting and helpful. We will be sending around a recording of this as well as our contact information. So, if you have follow-up questions that we weren't able to get to or wanna talk about crypto philanthropy strategies, feel free to reach out to Pat and The Giving Block and to me at Orr Gro

up. I'm happy to meet with you and talk about it further. I also wanna make sure that I mention our next Orr Group TALK, which will be taking place on February 24th, and we'll be interviewing Aisha Alexander-Young, who is the Chief Executive Officer at Giving Gap, to discuss advancing racial equity and giving. So thank you again, Pat. Thank you again, everyone in our audience. We'll be sending you a follow-up email shortly and we hope to continue this conversation. It's changing a lot, so there'

s always gonna be more to talk about. Any wise closing words, Pat, from you, that we should be thinking about? - No, I mean, look into it. If you're curious, like, we have a website. Go to thegivingblock.com. You can book a demo. If you don't wanna get pitched, you can just read and, you know, be curious. Fit crypto into your existing innovation plans, right? Like, it's not like, you don't have to cut the line. You can do other things first, but you should definitely have it on your radar at thi

s point. It's a big deal. Even if you get to a no, like, my recommendation would be like, get to a yes or a no quickly just because you're early at this point, so there's a lot of upside if you get in and if it's not a good use of your time, just clear out your head space and decide against it so you can move on to other interesting stuff. - That is wise advice, probably on a lot of friends, but specifically for crypto philanthropy. Well, thank you Pat, thank you everyone, and thanks again for j

oining our Orr Group TALK today.