Pachita: The Mexican Miracle Healer with Heidi Jurka

New Thinking Allowed is a non-profit endeavor. Your contributions to the New Thinking Allowed Foundation make a meaningful difference in our ability to produce new videos. Thinking Allowed Conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we're going to talk about the Mexican psychic healer known as Pachita. She was incidentally discussed in a previous interview with Alex Gómez-Marín about the work of th

e Mexican anthropologist Jacobo Grinberg, who studied extensively with her. And today my guest is Heidi Jurka. I've done a previous interview with Heidi about Andrija Puharich and the Space Kids, of which she was one. And I would recommend, if you haven't watched that previous interview, I'm linking to it now. For those of you who have the right equipment, in the upper right hand corner of your screen there will be a link to the earlier interview with Heidi Jurka. We talked about her extensive w

ork with Andrija Puharich in the previous interview. Today we're going to talk about how she went to Mexico with Puharich and stayed there for four months observing Pachita. Welcome, Heidi. Thank you so much, Jeffrey. Lovely to be with you. Lovely to be with you again. Now, to set the stage for your journey to Mexico, I think it's important to say that even before Pachita, Andrija Puharich had done an extensive study with the Brazilian healer known as Arigo, the healer with the rusty knife. The

"Surgeon with the Rusty Knife" was the subtitle of John Fuller's book about that episode. So Puharich was already very familiar with phenomena that most people, especially back then in the 1970s, would consider too bizarre. Yes. And he had his own surgery on his arm. That's right. I attended a symposium in 1973 at De Anza College in Cupertino, California in which Puharich spoke and talked about his research with Arigo. And truly, that alone was mind-blowing. But that's just really the first chap

ter in terms of you working with him and being invited to travel with him to Mexico. Yeah. And there's a video of him getting surgery online, I found. With which healer? With Arigo. With Arigo. Yeah. There is a lot more video of him than I expected to find. So why did he invite you to come with him to Mexico? Well, besides being a study subject, I was his assistant and I was happy to do that. And I'd had my own healing experiences, et cetera, and my psychic work. You had been working, for exampl

e, with the Tibetan singing bowls. Yeah. I actually did that a little bit later. But when I was learning my skills through the Psynetics classes, et cetera, we had a healing group of our own. And I always just really liked that part of doing the work. And so we were going to work on the books also down there. He came back from seeing her after the mind link that we mentioned and decided that she was finally ready to share her knowledge. Because before she didn't want to really be photographed or

anything. And she realized she was getting older and she wanted to reach out and teach other people how to do what she did. And she was known as a miracle healer. Absolutely. And she operated on Andrija also on his ears. Well, let's talk about how she worked. You had the opportunity. You were there for four months. You witnessed many of these surgeries. I did. But they're all very quickly done, for one thing. And I got glimpses of them and I hung around while he was filming and that sort of thi

ng. So, of course, you're also respecting people's privacy that are having this done. You know, their family members and a lot of the people that came were last case scenarios. They'd been told they were going to die and this was their last chance. And she did amazing work. It was quite remarkable. For example? I was there for one day where someone came from Europe with their family and they had an inoperable brain tumor. And as far as I know, she took care of that. And when you went into the bu

ilding, the hacienda where she worked with her, she had a lot of male orphans that helped her run this. She did not take any money for it. And people were laid out on the floor wrapped in clean white sheets. And that's how she did it all. So when you walked in and looked around, it was almost like mummies lined up on the floor that were resting afterwards. And so we went with the same protocol. What did she actually do? She was a lot like Arigo. She had a rusty kind of hunting knife or whatever

that size is called. And she would do the same thing as him. Our viewers don't know what he did. You've got to be more descriptive. She would diagnose just by scanning the individual and determine what was needed. And then she would take this knife and operate on them. Some of them experienced some pain, which Arigo apparently did not happen. But she would do the patient I'm thinking of had a kidney transplant, both kidneys. And she, in this case, saw Pachita twice. And she was examined and had

a small surgery. And then Pachita told us that we needed to get a kidney from a cadaver to replace the kidneys that Carla had. We're talking about Carla Rueckert, incidentally. We've spoken of her in our previous interview. She's well known for people who are familiar with the Ra channeling. She's the person who channeled the entity known as Ra. Yes, and she was at the Mindlink along with Don. And we're a wonderful part of that. Multi-skilled. Now, let me be clear about the chronology. The Mindl

ink event occurred shortly, if I recall, before the fire at the house. Actually, the Mindlink was the previous summer. And then in January, we went to Mexico. Andrija had gone down there right after the Mindlink to talk to her again and see if she was willing to come forward. And he found that she had changed her mind and was now willing to not only be photographed and what she was doing, but she was getting older and she decided that she would teach people. She wanted to pass on her knowledge.

And I understand from our previous interview that Jacobo Grinberg also became a student, a devotee, an apprentice of hers. Oh, that's quite remarkable. Yeah, so we went down and observed things, but then Carla came. So this would have been, just so I get the chronology correct, January 78. Yes. Now, the fire took place... In August of 78. In August of 78, yeah. Okay, so we're moving right up to the fire. Yeah, from January to May, Jaime Del Rio and I went down. We drove Andrija's car, which is q

uite a 43-hour trip from New York all the way to Tepoztlán, Mexico. And of course, he was invaluable because he was native to Mexico City, so he spoke the language fluently. Now, Tepoztlán is where? It's outside of Mexico City, about an hour. And it's become kind of a tourist place now. It has a pyramid that's been there that we used to go up and meditate up there. And it's really a charming area. I haven't been back, but I know people that vacation there now. We were talking about Carla Ruecker

t's surgery. She had, as I recall, she knew she had a kidney disease. Oh, she'd had a lot of trouble with her kidneys over the years. And that was one of the things that was so important because she had all this documentation from her doctors. So we were bringing down a patient that had years' worth of documentation. She had one kidney that really wasn't functioning and the other was failing. And she was looking at going on dialysis. So she came down with Don. Don Elkins. Don Elkins and her part

ner in L/L Research as well. And the Ra channeling. Yes. Which, as we described earlier, was very compatible with Andrija Puharich's earlier work channeling, well, working with channels. He himself wasn't a channeler, but he worked with channels who channeled The Nine. That's right. And Andrija was very intuitive himself. He was no slouch. And The Nine, incidentally, were supposedly related to the ancient Egyptian pantheon of gods. So for Carla Rueckert to be channeling Ra, another Egyptian deit

y, there was a certain, I guess you would have to say, synergy. Yes, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, so a cadaver kidney was procured. In Mexico? Mexico City. Yeah, and her orphans that she adopted or took care of that ran this thing for her. Pachita's orphanage. Pachita's, yeah. Her little crew there procured one from a hospital or something. There was nothing nefarious about it the way it was done. It would be in America today. Yeah. You don't just get kidneys like that. Also, she was known

to be a healer. And so if they were going to do anything with a kidney that was still useful, they looked at it as giving hope to someone else. So they had a different attitude about it. Okay. And so Carla came in and she wasn't in there more than half an hour. And this is described in Andrija's book. Which book? Well, it's in "Memories of a Maverick", of course. Yes, which is online. It's hard to find, but people can read it on Uri Geller's website. The whole book is there. "Memories of a Mave

rick" written by Andrija Puharich's second wife. Yes. And very well documented. So they brought her in and what happened was, now I was not in the room. He was filming these things in infrared. So it was very tight space. Just enough for family. Don was with Carla. And basically what happened was, he said there was a lot of energy and she made two incisions between each kidney. And then she cut the kidney in half. In half her kidney. Yeah. And the long way. And as she placed it over the incision

she'd made on Carla, Andrija documented that he saw the kidney just really get sucked into her body. I seem to recall from your book that he was holding the halves of the kidney in his hands when they were sucked out of his hands right into her body. That's right. Yeah, you know. And then basically what she would do is she didn't use stitches. She would hold the skin together and wrap the person in gauze and say, okay, do not shower or take these bandages off for five days. And at the end of it

, there's footage of Don took movies of the scars. And they were just little like cat scratches left. Little, you know. And she immediately felt better. Instead of having to get up to the bathroom nine times in one night, she was able to sleep a lot better. And by the time they got returned to Louisville, a few days later, she was fine. And she went back to her doctors who were aghast because all of a sudden she had two brand new kidneys. And I lost track of Carla for quite a few years. And when

I got a computer, I looked her up and we chatted and caught up. And I said, Carla, I have to ask you about the kidney. When did you meet her? Well, it was online. We talked on the phone actually in about 2000 or so. So it would have been over 20 years from the time of the surgery. Yeah, and she mentioned that. I said, so, Carla, I've got to ask you. What about your kidneys? She said, well, I've got all these other health problems. She said, but I've never had any problem with my kidneys. Pachit

a really did heal me. It's been 20 years. So that is one example of many associated with Pachita's healings. And I did get to go in and observe other things, but I kept towards the back because it's a private moment with the families too. And I was just trying to assist Andrija and sort of help her with equipment type of things. So I didn't linger, but I did see some, you know. What kind of a person was Pachita? She was interesting. She was very petite. And she just knew Andrija was the guy righ

t away. You could just tell by the way they looked at each other that she recognized him as someone who valued her and believed in what she did. Because most scientists would be there to see if they can find out what the trick is. Right. Well, with his history with Arigo, which they discussed, and of course they had an interpreter. She spoke some English, but not, you know, she wasn't terribly articulate. And so she did have a helper. I'm not sure that part I don't remember very well, but they g

ot it across. And they visited enough times where she trusted Andrija. And they had a real rapport. They would laugh and kind of goof around a little bit. She was kind of motherly in her approach. She had grown up in the circus and had started with healing animals in the circus, which she was adopted to. Well, if she's not charging for all of this, how does she support herself? Well, like, for example, for the kidney. Her orphan team ran it, and they would accept donations for that kind of thing

. But it was never an extortion thing. It was always like, well, we have to pay to do this. I think she was supported by the community to some degree. They did try and exploit her, but she did so many surgeries, and she did them so quickly and without fuss that people came to her. And they knew that she was the real deal. So they didn't want to bother her or make it harder for her. She was loved. You have these kind of miracle healers in Mexico, in Brazil, in the Philippines. These are all Latin

-speaking countries. And they are typically, especially in those days, lots and lots of poor people who probably either didn't trust doctors or couldn't afford regular doctors. And they come to her where all they have to do is pay, donate what they can afford. Right. Or not. Or not even at all. And she just takes as many as she can accommodate. Yes, and she did several in a day. I think the day that Carla was done, because I sat with Carla for two hours while she rested afterwards on the floor t

here, wrapped in the white sheets just like everyone else. And Jaime was interpreting with her helpers in Spanish and getting water for her and all that sort of stuff. And I think Andrija would come out and check on her, but he was still observing other surgeries. And so I got to see how it all played out. And there were a dozen different people lying around on the floor in this place, wrapped in sheets. It was really quite something. And it was touching because the hope on family's faces. These

were last-case scenarios, withered limbs, cancerous tumors. And she fixed them. And the family sitting like I was with Carla, the look on their faces, that they actually had a future. It was almost indescribable. It was so valuable and it was wonderful to be a part of it. And Andrija wanted to make this a scientific project. Absolutely. And the fact, and you don't think he would have moved down there, except that Pachita wanted to train someone to take her place because she was getting older. H

e was a medical doctor. Absolutely. Yeah. He chronicled it all in different ways. He did the video. And of course, he took meticulous notes when we got back to where we were staying. Scientific language, all that. He kept good records because he wanted this to be accepted. One of the things I recall from our previous interview, my interview with Alex Gómez-Marín, is that Pachita was known for apports, objects that would just materialize out of thin air. Did you have any observations of that sort

? I didn't. I wasn't in the operating room that often. And I would come in inobtrusively to help. I stayed in the background and I saw a lesion taken out of someone's arm, a man. But again, I was being very subtle. I wasn't trying to go, hey, let me see that. That wasn't appropriate. So I was just extremely respectful and tried to be as helpful as I could. Well, you were there for four months. Four months. That's a length of time. Yes. So you observed probably many occasions. I did. And Jaime an

d I would talk about it after what we saw. And because he spoke Spanish fluently, he was more useful in more areas than I was. But the highlight was certainly for me being there with Carla. And the fact that she bounced back so quickly. Because you were able to follow up on that particular case. Exactly. But what conclusions Andrija himself was drawing from his experience. He was there with you filming and making more careful observations than you were. Well, he referenced Arigo so much. I mean,

this was the closest thing to Arigo he had ever seen. One of the only differences he said is that when Pachita operated, sometimes people did have some pain. In fact, he had his own ears operated on by Pachita. Because he always had something done to himself first before he would ever let anybody work on anyone he knew. And he had ear growths and she took care of that. And fixed him. And he had some pain and his hearing was accentuated for a little while. But within like two weeks or something,

his hearing was perfect again. I see. Yeah. So he... You know, I was trying to just be helpful and stay out of the way. And be as respectful as I could for what I was seeing. But he really wanted... In some ways I think he wanted to make, since she was willing now, to make her the new Uri. But do it from a healing standpoint rather than telekinesis. New Uri Geller. Yes. In terms of the importance of this work. Well, as I recall, Arigo, in Brazil, worked through... Or maybe I should reverse what

I just said. There was a spirit entity named Dr. Fritz. Apparently a German medical doctor deceased who worked through Arigo. And that the surgeries were supposedly performed not by Arigo really, but by the spirit team who were capable of all of these miraculous things with a rusty knife. In Pachita's case, were there spirits that she attributed this to? She did. And I don't remember a lot of the detail about that. But she certainly was very aware of whatever outside help she was getting. She w

ould go within before she started and make contact with whoever. And again, we have the language barrier. So for me to be able to articulate that well for what she was saying. I mean, no one was interpreting what she said as she went along. That would have been rude. But she did go within and she had a way of doing it where she would go within and then she would get her things in a certain place and make sure all her instruments were where they were. Mostly she used the one knife. And she also h

ad herbal remedies. So when somebody had a surgery from her, she had her own special tinctures and stuff that she would intuit what that person needed before they got there. And she'd have it ready a lot of times. So she was remarkable. How did that experience, four months in Mexico, affect you? Did you feel changed by being in her presence, in her community for that length of time? Oh, definitely. This was a unique thing. And you know, people say they can do these things and they get a lot of b

ad press. She was the real deal. And she was very humble. And she had kind of a fun little sense of humor, too. She wasn't a strange person or otherworldly, really. She lived in this world. And she ran kind of a clinic. And she was a down-to-earth person. But I could tell she really bonded with Andrija. Just the way they looked at each other. I think they were communicating telepathically on some level. How old was she when you were there? She was in her late 70s. And in fact, that's part of the

story, you know, after the fire at Andrija's house and everything. And he went down there anyway. So after the fire in August of 78, he went back to Mexico without you? Yeah, without any of us. He wanted to disappear for a while because of what had happened. But also, the whole plan was to sell the house and move down there to Mexico to study Pachita because she was willing to teach. Even before the fight. Oh, yeah. That was the plan. And I gather at that point you began to drift away from Andr

ija. So, for example, did he ever become her apprentice? Did he learn to perform surgeries? Did he learn how to do psychic surgeries? Well, here's the odd thing about it. After all that, the next year she died at 81. So that was the end of that road also. And by that time he was down in Mexico and he was staying with someone in Tepoztlán that I think I know who that is, but I'm not absolutely sure, and started a community briefly there. So he once again had a bunch of psychic people that were tr

ying to do similar Mindlink type exercises. So he didn't give up. And I admire that about him. He was true to his mission. As we talked about in our previous interview, the idea of the Mindlink is that people of a like mind or a like heart, there are people who feel love for the world, would get together, connect with each other, perhaps telepathically, and send out a beam of vibration of love to cover the planet and hopefully impact the world in a positive way. That's really true. And to clarif

y that even more, it's not just sort of like, oh, isn't that nice? I love everyone. It was a consciousness raising, expansion type of feeling where you really felt that you were, you know, it was all encompassing and you were actually interacting with other civilizations that wanted us to succeed. And so it was more than just a global thing. It really went to a higher level of consciousness. And that's what made it so strong because you were getting above all the earthly emotion sometimes. And t

hat made it easier to just get in those states and connect with people in a very strong, powerful way. My understanding of the Ra channeling is, I could be wrong, but my understanding is that their philosophy, I think they call it the "law of one". That's right. And basically, it's very similar to my own personal motto, what I strive for, to love everyone and everything all the time. And of course, that's totally inconsistent with normal daily life where you're supposed to hate evil and love goo

d. So this is, you know, you could say it's loving the fact that you hate evil. It's true. And there's less of an emotional tug to it. It has a higher plane kind of feeling, not that you're removed from it all. You still feel it. But there's a lightness about it that makes it so much easier to connect. You're not tuning in on everybody's infirmities or insecurities. It's that higher consciousness that you can just everybody can blend and just kind of lift and you can feel it energetically. It's

like when you're having like one of the best meditations in your entire life and you are absolutely able to share that experience with people and they are able to articulate later what it was like and you're amazed because that's what you felt too. And this is what Andrija was about. This is what Carla Rueckert and Don Elkin were about as well with the Ra channeling and the law of one. And unfortunately as a result of, amongst other things, the fire that destroyed the community of Space Kids tha

t Puharich was working with in August of 78. That impulse sort of dissipated. For that group, everybody was on survival mode after that. And you had to figure out what you were going to do. I certainly did. I had to make some new decisions and terrified people. Some people never returned to the work and didn't want their name to be spoken or they were afraid of being tracked and chased and something bad happening. And I certainly can relate to that. But with regard to Pachita, she was not involv

ed in the Mindlink. No, at least maybe remotely. He had been in touch with her over the years. But this was the first time after the mind link that she had made up her mind that she knew she was getting older and she wanted to share it. It was time to train others and really come out in the open. And of course that was candy for Andrija. That couldn't have been a better next step for him. And at the same time, I presume that you don't have any knowledge of him ever practicing that type of healin

g. No, you know, one thing about Andrija was that he didn't have a big ego about being able to do these things himself. He wasn't sitting around fretting about how well he could bend spoons or any of that. He liked to document other people and what they could do. And his joy was being able to put it all together and present it in a way that people could absorb easily and it wouldn't scare them. And he would document it like crazy because he was a scientist at heart. That's really who he was, a p

hysicist on many levels. So he was really about who he was studying rather than look at me and how fantastic I am. You know, he had a healthy ego like everyone did because he was very bright. But he really felt he was on mission to bring these things forward to help humanity. Now I understand that he wrote about all of this, the Mindlink and his work with Pachita, in a manuscript which was carefully written and edited and has never been published. Yes, and after the fire we were allowed to go in

and get some belongings. They came with us, the fire department guys. And Andrija had a few things that he wanted from the office area where he was. He hadn't gotten back from Mexico yet to do any of this himself. And we had to get in there quickly because everything was soaking wet from the water and everything. And on his desk I saw "Time No Longer", which was the manuscript. "Time No Longer". Yes, that there shall be time no longer. And there it was and I knew it would be gone the next day f

rom all the wetness. It was covered with crud and it was getting wet. So I grabbed it. He didn't ask me to. But I was like, I'm getting this out of here. This is so important, you know. And when he came into town the next day and he stayed for about a week or so to deal with the insurance and all those kinds of things and it was pretty mortifying for him. He wanted a couple of things. He wanted his Tesla watch. He wanted that and he wanted the typewriter that he had gotten from what was thought

to be Tesla's when Tesla died. He was a big student of Nikola Tesla. It was his hero. And he ended up moving around a lot. And so he said, look, just hang on to all that stuff and I'll get with you at some point. And he never did. So all this time, 45 years, I have had that manuscript and I've kept it safe. And there is some talk of maybe trying to publish it, but there are legalities involved. And so we'll see if that works out or not. But you have had the opportunity to read it. Yes. Oh, yes.

I read it recently. I read it when I was writing my book and had forgotten some things that were in there. And it was gratifying because it made me remember the essence of what we were all about then, despite all the tragedy that happened later. I don't think I mentioned your book when I introduced you, "The Making of a Psychic". We want to be sure that our audience is aware of that book in which you cover all of these events that we've been talking about. Do you recall in the Time No Longer man

uscript any conclusions that Andrija drew about Pachita? Well, not really, because he went down there after the fire. And what I read was that he rewrote it, but nobody seems to have a good copy of that. I had heard that there was one around, but it was in tatters and there were chunks missing and all that. All of his work is being donated to Northwestern University. Northwestern? Yeah, because that's where Andrija went. And so Andy, his son, and the family are giving all his stuff, now that it'

s been used for the documentary, to the university and it will all be digitized and made public. Chances are this interview will be released before that documentary ever goes public. People should be on the alert for it. It's about the whole Andrija Puharich story in documentary form. You were interviewed extensively for it. I believe the working title is Mind Traveler. Yeah, and I'm not in the loop in terms of when it will come out or anything like that. To the best of my knowledge, that hasn't

yet been determined. I think he really felt that Pachita was his next calling and he really would have dove deep into that. But he had to keep coming back to New York to deal with legalities and so forth because of the house and all that. And then the next spring she died. I see. And that was the end of that. There was no one to take her place. And he didn't, after her death, didn't go back where you were? Didn't touch with him that much in any case at that point. No, and I wasn't. Of course, I

disappeared into Europe for several months. And then I came back and just tried to make a new life for myself. Completely new life. Yeah. I had to start over. After that horrible fire, it was too painful to go back to that world again, I guess. Well, I wasn't sure I was physically safe. This was an arson designed to murder everyone in the house. So I didn't know. You know, I knew I wasn't safe in the world and I didn't know quite what to do about that. I didn't have any answers. There was no in

formation coming. No one was ever charged in the fire and that sort of thing. I see. Well, are there any other impressions of Pachita you would like to share with our viewers? There are some interesting photographs of her online that you can see her, including on the site, Andrija's site, that his son has run for many years. There are a few snapshots of Pachita and Andrija talking. And you can see the love between them. And just the expressions on their faces when they talk to each other and the

way she looks at him. You could tell they were kindred spirits. And she, I mean, I related to her one-on-one a little bit. And she was very kindly and just felt a sweetness from her that she, and a confidence. She'd been doing this since she was a kid treating circus animals and had it evolved. So she had been doing this a long time under the wire. And now for her to be willing to come forward and actually teach others to do what she was doing because she knew she was getting older, I'm filled

with admiration for her. Well, two very magical people, Andrija Puharich and Pachita. Did she have any other name besides Pachita? I'm sure she did, but that's the only one I remember. I'm sure she had a whole written, given name kind of thing. And I'm sure that there are other articles about her online that I've read. So if people are interested, all you have to do is Google Pachita, psychic surgeon in Mexico. And there's a fair amount of stuff out there. I'm sure Jacobo Grinberg wrote extensiv

ely about her. Yeah, I haven't looked her up in a while. But it was a wonderful experience. And in the middle of that, I went up to California and brought the manuscript for TMT to Michael Phillips. TMT being? Tesla Magnifying Transmitter about the ELF work. So Michael Phillips being the producer of the Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Why would you bring it to him? This is a technical manuscript. Yeah, Andrija wanted him to have it. Because I think he was going to be helpful getting it to so

me of the people that Andrija was trying to influence to help. He was very concerned about the ELF frequency of electromagnetics, extremely low frequency broadcasts that were coming out of Russia and influencing the whole planet. Yeah, and in fact, when we were doing the MindLink, all of us who were finally selected, one evening he called us into the living room and had this whole table with all kinds of little gems and stuff that we were supposed to pick for ourselves. And then someone came out

and made a bracelet. And this is it. You have it right here. And this is a crystal that looks like a battery that was soldered on there. And these were to repel ELF. He does talk about that. In fact, it's in other books, not just Andrija's, that copper is also helpful for that. And so we picked out what we wanted and then overnight they cured them in the Faraday cage. And the next night everyone got their crystal, their bracelet, and we wore these through the MindLink to help us. In other words

, the whole idea of the Faraday cage is that you're shielding yourself from all the stray electromagnetic energy. This whole room is right now where we are permeated by radio and television and microwave signals of every kind and UHF and VHF and who knows what else, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi. So it's going right through our bodies. And inside the Faraday cage, all of that's blocked out. Yeah, and the example he would use all the time was he'd put a radio in there and when the door was open, you could

get a signal. But as soon as you shut the door, you couldn't get a signal in there. So that was just an easy way to let people know on a very basic level what we were talking about. And what you determined is that psychic functioning improves inside the Faraday cage, which suggests that all of this electromagnetic noise in our environment is, well, from a simple signal to noise question, it's interfering with psychic functioning. And just in some levels, just human involvement, it's really disru

pting what our natural expansion would be and higher states that we could attain as we evolve as humans and get more refined. I mean, we have refined over the millions of years we've been around or whatever. And that dismayed him that this interference was budding into the evolutionary and expandive process that he thought everyone was capable of. Yes, indeed he did. He wrote extensively about it. I think his first book along these lines was Beyond Telepathy, which described the physiological re

sponses to both being receptive to telepathic or clairvoyant messages or being a transmitter. Sending messages is very different than receiving them from a physiological point of view. And he wrote about that. Yeah, and that book still holds up quite well. It's written in the 60s, I think. It's a classic. It really is. Yeah, there's another one I can think of that's a classic. I think it's called Roots of Consciousness. Well, you know, even before I wrote the Roots of Consciousness, I met Andrij

a Puharich and invited him to come to Berkeley on a couple of occasions to speak, which he did. And he was very supportive of me as a young graduate student getting started in this field. He was very encouraging and I'm grateful that I got to know him. He mentioned you a couple of times. He was always busy with his work. But it was kind of like, that kid, he's going places. He's the real deal. That was kind of like, he's one of the good ones. That was kind of the attitude towards you. Well, Heid

i, Jurka, once again, a fascinating interview about an important chapter in the history of parapsychology that has been, I think, to a large extent forgotten. And I'm very happy to help awaken people to what took place back in the 1970s. Yeah, and I hope that we get more people that are doing this and that there's more fair coverage of them. Yeah, there are a lot of charlatans out there. But there are people that can do this. And it does nothing but help all of us. And there are very few parapsy

chologists like Andrija Puharich. He was an exceptional human being, an amazing explorer and discoverer and cultivator of extraordinary talent. He was. He was called a genius by many people. But he was also a decent man and had his priorities in order in terms of what he wanted to do for humanity. As I said in our previous interview, he reminds me of the real Dr. Xavier of X-Men. I can see that, yeah. Well, Heidi, thank you so much for being with me today. My pleasure. Thank you for making the l

ong journey from Virginia to Albuquerque. Well, it's nice to be back. I used to live in Santa Fe, so it's fun to be back here again after 20 years. I'm delighted that you came. Thank you. Me too. And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here. I imagine that by now many of you already realize that in conjunction with White Crow Books, we've just launched the New Thinking Allowed Dialogues book imprint and our first title is Is

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