Josh (00:01.679)
Well, hello, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. If you're joining
us on YouTube, so excited to have you here with us today. And of course, we have our political host,
Will, with us today. It's good to see you, Will. Will Wright (00:16.758)
How's it going everybody? Josh (00:19.131)
Oh man, well I'm doing well and I'm your faithful host, Josh.
Of course, in today on Faithful Politics, we're honored to have Professor Rashid Khalidi,
a distinguished historian and scholar
of Middle Eastern history, particularly Palestinian
history and geopolitics. Professor Khalidi currently holds the position of Edward Said
Professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University and serves as the Director of the
Middle East Institute at Columbia School. of International and Public Affairs. He's
a prolific author, and he's written several influential books that delve into the history of
Palestine and the Israeli-Palestine conflict and the broader dynamics of the Middle East
. His work
has been celebrated for its detailed analysis, drawing on various and many sources and
having a nuanced understanding of the complex political history. So please join us today
in welcoming Professor Rashid Khalidi to Faithful. politics where we're going to explore
some of the intricacies of this conflict in the Middle East. Professor Rashid, can
I just call you Rashid? Do you want me to call you like your highness or something
like that? Okay, Rashid is good. Well, thank you so
much for being on the show with us
today, Rashid. You know, as a start, I would love for you to give our audience, it's a very diverse
audience, politically, ethnically, religiously, rashid khalidi (01:25.463)
You certainly should. Absolutely. Josh (01:45.703)
Give us a sense of who is Rashid Khalidi and what brought you here today to be studying this
conflict and know so much about this. What was it about the Middle East and everything going on that
brought you here today? Who is Rashid Kha
lidi? rashid khalidi (02:04.877)
Well, that's a big question. I'll give you as short an answer as
I can. I'm a Palestinian American. I was born in New York because my father
was studying here in the United States, could not go back to Palestine in 1948
because of what Palestinians call the Neck Ba. Will Wright (02:07.333)
Hehehehe rashid khalidi (02:23.729)
many hundreds of thousands were forced to leave their homes. My grandfather's home was
in Jaffa. He was eventually forced to leave it, n
ever able to return. So I grew up in the
States. I've lived in the Arab world and in other parts of the world for much
of my life. My dad ended up working for the United Nations. And so I had an early
introduction to this issue because he worked in the Security Council. And I would spend a
lot of time going to the office with my dad Josh (02:51.987)
Wow. rashid khalidi (02:53.663)
sometimes sitting in the visitors gallery of the Security Council and
watching things happen and then hearing f
rom behind the scenes what was really happening.
So I've been involved in and interested in this because of my life history and because
of my experiences from the time I was a kid. I've lived in Lebanon for many, many years.
All my children were born in Beirut during different phases of the war in Lebanon.
I lived there from the 70s through 1983. Josh (03:03.227)
Wow. rashid khalidi (03:23.583)
university there. And I've taught since then at different universities in
this country, Georgetow
n, University of Chicago, and Columbia for the last 20 years. So
that's who I am. I'm a New Yorker, and I'm a Palestinian. My family comes from Jerusalem.
We have people in my family going back to Josh (03:37.243)
Awesome. rashid khalidi (03:41.381)
the Crusades and probably before in Jerusalem. And I have lots of family there.
I have family in Gaza, family in Namallah, family in Jerusalem, and in other parts of the
Middle East like most of the Palestinian families. Will Wright (03:56.458)
T
hat's pretty fascinating. So I'd imagine with everything that's going on in
the Middle East right now, Gaza specifically, it's gotta be pretty, it's gotta be weighing
pretty heavy on your heart. So before we get into maybe some of the more technical questions,
I'd love for you to maybe just tell us like, what goes through your mind when you're
looking at these images and your... seeing what's happening to, I don't know, to just
the people of Palestine and everything in Gaza. rashid khalidi
(04:33.565)
I mean, we have family living there. My niece's in-laws are all in Gaza. They forced to
leave their home in Gaza City. They're living in, I cannot describe the conditions to you. I
just got a message from my niece yesterday about they were cut off for three days,
communications were cut off, so they didn't know if they were alive or okay. And it's,
I can't describe the situation. It's beyond. Josh (04:54.794)
Mm. rashid khalidi (04:58.937)
It's beyond miserable and horrific, just
in terms of deprivation, in terms of fear,
in terms of, they've been forced to move five times. They moved from their home to the south
of Gaza. They live in Gaza City. The whole family lives together. They then were forced to go back
because there was bombardment in the south to Gaza City. Then they moved to Sheffa Hospital, which
was bombarded, and they finally ended up going back to the south, and now they're split up in
different parts of the southern part of Gaza. And the problem now,
besides the fact that
there are bombardments all over the Gaza Strip, is that there's not enough food, there's no
water. They're struggling to find firewood to burn. These are people who are well-to-do and
are trying to find food, water, and firewood. Josh (05:36.43)
Mm. Josh (05:42.849)
Mm. rashid khalidi (05:46.31)
My niece's brother-in-law is sick and there's no medicine. So, you know, it's indescribable horror. My brother lives in
Ramallah there in a much more secure situation, but ther
e are people arrested every day by the
Israeli army. And Ramallah is relatively immune to the kinds of depredations that are happening
all over the West Bank, where they're arresting literally hundreds of people a day and killing
eight to ten people a day, the Israeli army. Josh (05:51.798)
Mm. rashid khalidi (06:13.589)
So it's a situation much, much worse than it was before this war started
on the 7th of October. In terms of Gaza, we're talking about most of a population of 2.3
million wh
o have been forced to leave their homes. So a couple million people, or close to a couple
million people, are without shelter, and in many cases not getting enough food every day. And
that's the situation of my niece's family. So. Josh (06:34.769)
Mm. rashid khalidi (06:37.801)
We wake up every morning hoping everybody's alive. I have
two or three friends who've lost multiple members of their family.
One of my students, former students, lost 23 members of her family. And whole
families have
been wiped out in Gaza. The whole buildings are being destroyed. Supposedly,
there's some target there, but in the process, dozens of people or many people are being killed
who have nothing to do with the war, obviously. Josh (06:44.442)
Mm. Josh (06:47.711)
Oh my gosh. rashid khalidi (07:03.153)
So it's, I can't describe it. We're not being shown the full horror of it,
partly because most Western journalists are not able to get in there. And the stringers who
are in there, the local string
ers, you know, they're doing their best, obviously. Several dozen
of them have been killed. If I'm not mistaken, 63 journalists have been killed in Gaza, mostly
local stringers, as well as huge numbers of... Josh (07:12.645)
Bye. Josh (07:25.435)
Gosh. rashid khalidi (07:29.797)
healthcare workers, huge numbers, over a hundred UN workers, relief workers have
been killed. So anybody who says this bombardment, as the president described it accurately,
anybody who says this is not indiscriminat
e has not looked at what's going on. When
you wipe out 30 or 20 members of a family, there's no discrimination going on. When you
kill over a hundred UN aid workers, when you kill dozens of health workers, clearly what's
going on is disproportional and indiscriminate. Josh (07:45.798)
Mm. Will Wright (07:57.578)
Yeah, you know, we spoke with another professor at American University,
Professor Mohammed Abu Namir. And the way he described Gaza, I'll never forget. He
basically said it's the la
rgest open air prison in the world. And that just really stuck
with me because when you think of it that way, It really kind of reframed your understanding of
the plight of the population there in Gaza. And I know that recently you wrote an article in
Foreign Policy where you actually gave Biden an F on his Middle East. I'd love for
you to maybe walk us through that. Why did you decide to give him an F on the way
he's handling what's happening over there? rashid khalidi (08:54.501)
I mean,
there's no American president of either party who,
after the attack of October 7th, wasn't going to support Israel in responding. So
that's a given. But I think that the president's full spectrum support for everything
Israel has done has gone above and beyond. what one would normally expect of an
American politician. And what I am talking about is not just indiscriminate
bombardment that's killed 20,000 people, most of whom are women and children. I'm not only
talking about that. That in
and of itself is, in my view, a whole series of war crimes
for which we as a country are responsible because those are our bombs, our planes,
our helicopters, and our artillery pieces that are causing those deaths. I am
talking about the cutting off of food, water, fuel, electricity, medicine to a population
of 2.3 million people. We should not have ever, under any circumstances, allowed ourselves
as a country to be involved in anything like that. You know, you go,
you say X group has done
Y, you deal with X group. You do not punish 2.3
million people, the overwhelming majority of whom are children, by cutting off food,
water, medicine, electricity, and fuel. And Josh (10:09.444)
Right. rashid khalidi (10:18.105)
That's not an American decision. That's an Israeli decision. Israel is a sovereign country. But we
didn't do anything about that. And if they say they did, then the United States is an ineffectual
puffball, which has no ability to change outcomes. Excuse me? I don't
believe that. You know, we have
a fleet, the sixth fleet. There are two aircraft carrier battle groups there. There are dozens,
there's a Marine landing group on a small carrier. Josh (10:32.616)
Hmm. Josh (10:38.404)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (10:47.865)
We could have landed hundreds of tons of supplies on the beaches, whatever the Israelis
wanted. We could have air dropped something. The Jordanian Air Force is air dropping supplies to
the Jordanian hospital. Why is the United States not breaking
this Israeli siege if, in fact, we
don't agree with what they're doing? So I mean, these are examples of why I would
give the president an F. There's one other thing. At the very beginning
of this war, the Secretary of State... Josh (10:53.412)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (11:17.425)
traveled to Jordan and traveled to Egypt and traveled to Saudi Arabia in
addition to his visits to Israel obviously and Told the leaders of those countries
that the United States want supported Israel's Effort to expe
l people from
Gaza Temporarily or permanently is not clear. We know this from two sources.
We know this from the howls of protest from the Egyptians and the Jordanians
who said under no circumstances, and they said it in the most rude categorical
terms to Blinken's face in public. And we know it because the Office of Management and
Budget on the 20th of October put forward a funding request to Congress, which is still
before Congress, by the way, for I forget how many billions of dollars f
or Ukraine, $14
billion for Israel, and included in which, I can read you the language, was a
request for people displaced from Gaza. Josh (12:01.499)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (12:11.481)
So the US administration was party to an Israeli intention to displace
Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. Now, you may say, oh, what a wonderful idea. These poor
people are under bombardment. Move them to Egypt. First of all, no Palestinians,
the Israelis, have ever expelled, have ever been allowed to return. So
this would not have been a temporary humanitarian gesture. This was intended
to ethnically cleanse part of the Gaza Strip as far as Israel, and I have to
say, the United States were concerned. Josh (12:37.864)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (12:43.021)
And secondly, this is something that neither the Egyptians nor the Jordanians,
under any circumstances, could have accepted. And I could go into the reasons that it has to
do with Egyptian internal politics and Jordanian internal politics, but it's act
ually perfectly
understandable to anybody with elementary college education in Middle East history, which the
Secretary of State clearly did not have, which the president clearly did not have,
which all the people in the bubble around the president did not have. Now, we have
spent hundreds of millions of dollars. Josh (12:43.867)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (13:12.857)
training people in our intelligence service, in our military, in our state department
to understand the politics of this region whe
re we fought two wars in the last 20
odd years. So we have the expertise. That expertise has obviously not been consulted
and they went and said something that was completely unacceptable to both of these
governments and morally unacceptable. The United States has allowed Israel to
expel people in the past in 48 and 67. Josh (13:23.887)
Yes. Josh (13:31.449)
Mm. rashid khalidi (13:39.405)
United States never participated, United States was never complicit in doing such
a thing. And this is
morally indefensible. It's still in the budget request, by the way, that
is still before Congress, in which Congress is adjourned without yet acting on it. So
the smoking gun is right there. So I mean, I would think there were a lower grade than F-,
I would have given this president that lower. Josh (13:50.063)
Hmm. Josh (13:59.472)
Hmm. Josh (14:05.879)
So it's not just like a 60 F, it's like a 15 or a 10 or a zero. Oh, I hear you.
I understand, man. Number one, thank you, Arshid, for speak
ing from your heart and just being
really clear and really honest and really... Yeah, yeah. I very rarely give after my
students, so that would have been great. rashid khalidi (14:10.405) Josh (14:32.163)
talking about the different sources, the things people can look up, because I see so
much around me people making blanket statements and really coming from blanket understandings,
very generalized and inaccurate understandings, it sounds like from what you're saying,
of the situation on bo
th sides of it, right? Not really understanding what the
real conflict is. And I would love for just our listeners and our watchers who have never really been able to wrap
their mind around this conflict. Either they've just been pro-Israel because that's
all they've been given, or they've been pro-Hamas or pro-I know Hamas and Palestinian are not
the same thing, that's not what I'm saying, but they've been pro-whatever side it is they want and
they just kind of choose the data that fits ki
nd of their bill. Give us an understanding of this
conflict, its origins, and how we've come to here. today and maybe even focusing on
some of the things that you have found that people really misunderstand
and don't understand the significance of. rashid khalidi (15:42.534)
Yeah. rashid khalidi (15:48.216)
Yeah. I mean, there's a huge amount of misunderstanding
all over the map, as you say. And a lot of people essentially have been taught a narrative that was
largely crafted by Israel or s
upportive of Israel. increasingly young people are coming to see
another side of this. And some of them are misinformed as well, I'm sure. And in fact, the
polling shows that support for the Palestinians is much greater among younger people than
it is among older people. There are other differences in that. But that doesn't mean
that people aren't really knowledgeable. And I've taught Middle East history for my
entire life. I've been teaching for 50 years. I started teaching 1974.
So I've
been at it for a while. Josh (16:35.571)
It's amazing. rashid khalidi (16:38.657)
And obviously, I mean, let me start by saying, I'm not a neutral observer.
You know, I'm a Palestinian. I have lived in the Arab world. I have family in Palestine.
At the same time, I'm a trained historian. I've written a lot of stuff about this. I've
done a lot of research about it. So, you know, people can take or leave what I say given my
background. Some people will immediately say, exclude it because, oh,
that guy is biased
because of who he is. Be that as it may. Josh (17:00.147)
Sure. rashid khalidi (17:06.179)
Let me start with... Well, I talked about Josh (17:06.203)
You're not talking to those people. Those people, you're not talking to them. They're already
gone. Let's talk to the ones that we can... rashid khalidi (17:13.425)
to everybody. I mean, whoever takes my course, I talk to them. Whoever
listens to my lectures, I talk to them. I don't care. You know, and sometimes people
move f
rom where they were to a different, better place in my experience. Anyway, let me talk
about some of the misconceptions. I think that's a really good idea about where to start. This is not
a conflict that has gone on since time immemorial. Josh (17:16.811)
Exactly right. rashid khalidi (17:36.877)
Okay? There was never a struggle between Jews and Arabs or Jews and Muslims in
Palestine, in history, ever. Okay? This is new. This is a function of the rise of nationalism,
Zionism, which is a nat
ionalist movement. It has other characteristics, but it's a national,
but the idea that the Jewish people should return to the land of Israel and form a modern nation
state. That's a modern, late 19th century political ideology, a nationalist ideology. And
it's a function of the rise of Arab nationalism and Palestinian nationalism, none of which existed
200 years ago. You did not have Jewish Zion, you didn't have Zionism, and you didn't have Arab
nationalism in 1823 or in 1873. Did not exis
t. Josh (18:12.167)
Hmm. Josh (18:15.879)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (18:24.831)
phenomenon this whole struggle over Palestine That's the most important thing to
understand and people who tell you well this goes back to the Crusades Or this goes back to the
Islamic conflict or this goes back to David and Solomon are basically repeating nationalist myths
The conflict did not exist for thousands of years between these two groups. Okay, there was conflict
over Palestine That's not what I'm talking abo
ut Josh (18:46.067)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (18:49.913)
I'm saying there was no Jewish-Arab or Muslim-Jewish conflict in
Palestine ever in history, ever. The Jews returned to Jerusalem
after the Islamic conquest because the Byzantines wouldn't allow Jews in Jerusalem.
So far from their conflict, the situation in the 7th century was very different. So that
brings us to the modern era, which is when Zionism begins and when Arab nationalism
begins. And then there's another factor. This struggle ha
s always been mediated and
affected by external intervention. If the British don't take Palestine in World War I, if
the British don't issue the Balfour Declaration, if the British don't get the League of
Nations to give them a mandate for Palestine, none of what follows would have followed in the
way that it did. I mean, it's really important to understand this. This is not just Jews and
Arabs. This is Zionism, the nationalist project. that Theodore Herzl starts in the 1890s, and
this is
the rise of nationalism among Arabs, at about the same time, modern nation state
nationalism, and the intervention of this great imperialist power, Britain. And ever since,
it has also been influenced by those kinds of external influences. The resolution to partition
Palestine in 1947 is passed by the strong arm tactics of the United States and the Soviet Union
working together. You don't have that bullying. by those two superpowers, you don't have
a partition resolution. You don't have the
state of Israel. The state of Israel is
established as a result of a resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly
in 1947. And I could go on and on and on, but I think those are two really important things
to understand. It is a modern struggle related to nationalism and external intervention. And it
does not go back to time immemorial. That's how I would start by deconstructing
a lot of the myths. So you have to. Josh (20:24.091)
Hmm. Josh (20:45.635)
Can I inject a question i
n there just to get some clarity? So I, number
one, this conversation is so fascinating to me. I love talking to trained historians
because I feel like so many times people throw things out about the past and make so many
anachronisms, so many false understandings of what life was like back then, how people
thought the decisions they might've made. rashid khalidi (20:46.949)
Go ahead. Josh (21:13.135)
because we just think, oh, well, I would make that decision,
so they would make that decis
ion. Well, it doesn't work like that in human history.
So one question, though, talk to us a little bit about the religious aspect. And I know
that when we get into the religious aspect, we get into a little bit of more mystical.
Sometimes it can even be like scary ground to go on because people can get offended. It's
about ultimate beliefs and ideas that people have. rashid khalidi (21:19.613)
Absolutely right. Josh (21:43.367)
But of course, we can't really ignore this idea of Christianity
, Judaism, and Islam. Help us understand
the conflict between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism as far back as you feel like we need
to go to understand what is going on here. Because people will even go as much to say, well, the
Muslims came from Ishmael, right? And the... rashid khalidi (21:50.839)
Mm-hmm. Right. Josh (22:12.063)
and the Jews came from Isaac. And so now there's this conflict, right?
Of who, like, and we trace these and people go back even that far. So it becomes existential
,
you know, because it's religious and which I, I'm a very religious person. I get it. I totally
understand. I'm not gonna make assumptions about your religion, but I'm, I know that you've had
a lot of contact and interaction with it. So. talk to us a little bit about that, help
us understand the religious aspect of this. rashid khalidi (22:45.077)
Right. I mean, I think we have to distinguish between belief and what
we know from archaeology and history. If we talk about belief, both Muslim
s and Jews,
as it happens, believe what you just said, that Muslims come. That Muslims and Jews
are cousins in the sense that they're all children of Abraham. That is a belief
in Islam, and it's a belief in Judaism. Josh (23:02.365)
Right. Josh (23:10.809)
Right. rashid khalidi (23:14.177)
as it happens. So in Arabic, sometimes when you're talking about Jews, you say, Wulad al-Am, our
cousins, going right back to that idea of Ismail, my son's name is Ismail, and Isaac. Yeah, it's
a great na
me. It's my father's name. That's a tradition with us. The eldest son names the eldest
son for the whatever. So that's a belief. Now, Josh (23:22.269)
Wow. Josh (23:28.207)
Yeah, it's a great name. Josh (23:38.119)
That's so cool. rashid khalidi (23:42.389)
Is there any historical or archaeological evidence for any of that?
No. But any believer believes that. I mean, that is your belief. If you're a believer,
if you're a Muslim or a Jewish believer, you believe that. And in fact, Jews, Christ
ians
as well. It's in the Bible. So I think you have to distinguish between belief, which is a
matter of faith, and whatever we've been able to prove archaeologically and historically.
And we've been able to prove a lot of stuff. And there's a lot of stuff that's very unclear. And I
don't think that matters. Let's leave that aside. Josh (24:06.375)
Right. Josh (24:12.891)
Because one, just I want to hear that thought, but the idea what I'm
hearing is like that belief, that's what we have to
deal with now. Whatever happened then, that's
what, but we have to deal with the belief now. rashid khalidi (24:12.918)
The other rashid khalidi (24:25.597)
Exactly. I mean, I would argue as a historian that most of what
nationalists believe is myth. So say the French taught their children under the
Third Republic that they're all descendants of the Gauls. It's historical nonsense.
But the French people believed that, and that belief is a reality. It doesn't
matter what archaeologists and
linguists and historians tell us. That was what children
were taught to believe. And that was a fact. Josh (24:40.657)
Right. Josh (24:45.052)
Yes. rashid khalidi (24:52.569)
Nationalism is a fact. I mean all these historians who debunked nationalism are
right in saying these are myths. But it doesn't matter. Those myths have enormous purchase. The
same is true with religion. It doesn't matter what the historians and the archaeologists
say. Belief is belief. That's a fact. Josh (25:01.507)
Y
es, yes, absolutely. rashid khalidi (25:07.449)
what people believe is what you have to deal with. Because that's how that, that's what
motivates them and so on and so forth. Whether it's a nationalist belief or a religious belief
or an Indian, it doesn't matter, really doesn't matter. So yeah, I'm with you on that. That is
another, this doesn't challenge belief. It simply says this is all that we've been able to prove
historically or archaeologically. Now I'm not an ancient historian. I'm n
ot gonna go back to,
you know, biblical times or pre-biblical times. Josh (25:31.955)
Sure. rashid khalidi (25:35.073)
And I'm not also a geneticist. And I'm not going to say the people who claim
to be Palestinians actually descend from XYZ. The Jebusites, the Canaanites, the Philistines.
Well, actually, you can't prove that, because we don't have any Jebusite or Canaanite
or Philistine DNA. And if you got it, it probably wouldn't prove very much. And the
same is true with Jews. I mean, wha
t matters to a certain extent is what people believe,
or what may be in the Quran or the Bible. So. Josh (25:44.655)
Right. Josh (25:51.803)
There you go. Yes. Josh (26:03.473)
Mmm. rashid khalidi (26:04.857)
Let's, again, you got to push all of that out as far as reality is
concerned or what we can discern was real. But belief is really important. So for Jews,
the connection of Judaism, both historically and in belief to the Holy Land is, you know,
incontrovertible. The religion developed t
here. Josh (26:22.595)
Right, right. rashid khalidi (26:24.641)
Judaism, it developed also in Baghdad, it developed elsewhere. The Talmudic and
rabbinical Judaism that we know actually developed long after the biblical period, but the belief
and the connection is there. The real connection and the belief are there. And Christian belief is
obviously anchored in Palestine. We all know that. the passion of Jesus, his crucifixion and so
on. Those are historical facts and they're also beliefs. Ok
ay, so there's a real connection,
there's a real connection. And then there are beliefs which, you know, can and cannot be
proved, but we don't care. Because that's what people believe. Because that's what's in their
holy text. Muslims believe that all prophets... Josh (27:02.168)
Exactly. rashid khalidi (27:07.793)
of the Bible are true prophets of God. They believe that Christians and Muslims, sorry,
that Jews and Christians received revelation from God. So all three monotheistic religions
believe that the prophets of the Old Testament, of the Hebrew Bible, and of the New Testament
are legitimate prophets. This is belief. I'm not talking about, I'm just talking about what
people believe. All Muslims believe that. And they also believe that Palestine is a holy
land. There's a verse of the Quran which talks about the prophet's night journey and the fact
that the two Jerusalem and the fact that the holy land is blessed by God. So all three unotheistic
religions have some of th
e same beliefs. Now, obviously Jews and Christians don't believe
that Muhammad was a prophet. Muslims believe that all the others are prophets as well as
Muhammad. Doesn't matter. Those are the beliefs. Josh (27:43.055)
Hmm. Josh (27:51.231)
Hmm. Josh (27:55.088)
Yes. rashid khalidi (28:04.409)
So we have a problem here because for all three monotheistic religions,
this is a holy land. Now for Muslims, obviously Mecca and Medina are the first
and second most important holy cities, but Jerusa
lem is the third. For Christians,
Jerusalem and Bethlehem and Nazareth are uniquely important. And the land of
Israel for Jews is uniquely important. But Josh (28:13.019)
Hmm. Josh (28:18.127)
Right? Hmm. rashid khalidi (28:28.769)
you do have, as you're suggesting, a religious element here. Because for all three
of these monotheistic religions, there is a deep, abiding, historic connection to the Holy Land.
I mean, if you wanna see that, you can see it in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Y
ou wanna
see that, you can see that in synagogues that have been excavated all over Palestine,
over Israel. And if you wanna see that, you just go to Jerusalem and look at the Dome
of the Rock and the Al-Atsam Mosque, which are built within decades of the Muslim conquest.
I mean, obviously, this is an important place It doesn't take. Any archaeologist, any historian,
any historian of religion can tell you that. And that's part of the problem, obviously.
That there are connections to this p
lace, which in some cases are contradictory. The
same places are holy. So the Muslims built these mosques because they believed that place
was holy, to begin with, because of Judaism. Josh (28:59.655)
Yes, yes. rashid khalidi (29:21.125)
So you obviously have a problem. You have two levels of, if you want to call it,
sacrality or sacredness in the same place. And that's true in Hebron, and it's true a bunch
of other sites in Israel and Palestine. Now, let me say one more thing about
religio
n. One of the fascinating things about Zionism and Palestinian
nationalism is that until quite recently, both of them were largely secular.
Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern, Josh (29:28.475)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (29:50.161)
political Zionism. Kaim Weizmann, the successor and the first president of
the state of Israel, David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, and every
early Zionist leader were secular Jews. They were not Orthodox. Now they may have been
observant, but they
were essentially secular nationalist politicians. Same is true for most
Muslim, sorry, for most Palestinian leaders, both Muslim and Christian. There were a few
religious figures, the Mufti and a couple others. Most of them were, my uncle was one
of them. I show you a picture of my uncle. Josh (30:20.967)
That's awesome, please. rashid khalidi (30:22.897)
That's him in an Ottoman uniform. Well, actually in a British uniform. Yeah,
clearly not a religious figure. Look at the mustache. Clearly
not a religious. These
are his memoirs. So you're talking about two political movements which obviously have roots
in religious belief. It's Zionism, certainly. Will Wright (30:26.538)
How cool. Josh (30:27.099)
That's amazing. Will Wright (30:32.737)
I'm going to go to bed. rashid khalidi (30:44.569)
and also Palestinian nationalism, which are essentially modern secular nationalist political
movements, talking about a nation state and so on and so forth, the religious element. And there has
of course been a change. I mean, the rise of Hamas and the rise of religious nationalism in Israel
have transformed the politics of both groups, Palestinians and Israelis. They're not majorities.
Hamas has never won a majority in an election. Josh (30:47.216)
Yeah. Josh (30:52.079)
Yeah. Josh (31:05.546)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (31:10.745)
The religious nationalists have never won a majority in an Israeli election. They're
powerful forces. And we can talk about that if you want. But it's an int
eresting fact that the
Likud, Fatah, the PLO, are essentially section of political movements of the Labor Party and so
on and so forth. Most of them. Now, they include people who are deeply religious. They include
people who have faith. That's not the point. The point is that they are political movements
like the Democratic and Republican parties. Josh (31:16.859)
Hmm. Josh (31:32.56)
Of course. rashid khalidi (31:37.621)
or like the Labor Party and the Conservative Party, which are essentia
lly
sected, or with many religious people who are members. There are religious parties in Israel,
and Hamas is a self-proclaimed religious movement. So religiously inspired movements have growing
importance among both Palestinians and Israelis. But the founding of both of these sets of
ideas, Palestinian and Israeli nationalism. was essentially the work of
secular politicians, mainly secular politicians. It's an interesting fact. Will Wright (32:11.783)
Yeah, you know, I appreciate you kind
of breaking down some of the myths
and misconceptions earlier because, I mean, as one that's not as attuned to the stuff
as someone like yourself, like, you know, it's easy for me just to say, oh, it's just
like the conflict deals with just some, you know, centuries old religious disputes or
what have you. But what you're saying is... Josh (32:13.587)
Fascinating. Will Wright (32:40.774)
It's probably less of that, more nationalistic, more politics, more
whatever. And I'd love to kind of h
ave you maybe unpack that a little bit
more, because it seems like, I mean, I don't think there would ever be a good
time for this conflict to take place. But the fact that it's taking place now with the US
having an election next year, you know, I mean, Russia is having an election for whatever
that's worth, you know, and with Netanyahu. having his own legal issues, it seems like this
moment's right to do things and respond in a way that would be politically advantageous for your
people g
roup, your coalition, your political party, what have you. So can you talk a little
bit more about the politics that's taking place and how that might infer how we look at some of
the decisions these big countries are making? rashid khalidi (33:40.697)
Let me say four things. The first is that Israel was roiled by deep political divisions before this
war started. There was a lot of opposition to some of the constitutional and legal measures that
the coalition government was trying to bring i
n. And Netanyahu has become much more unpopular
as a result of this war. The failure to... to anticipate the attack by Hamas, the
overwhelming scale of Israeli civilian casualties. More Israeli civilians were
killed at the beginning of this war than in any of Israel's wars, including
going right back to 1948. Almost 800 Israeli civilians were killed.
That is the, in 1948, for example, 6,000 Israelis died. Almost all of them were
soldiers. In the second intifada, around 700 Israeli civilian
s were killed. I'm not talking
about soldiers. I'm just talking about civilians. Josh (34:19.527)
That's amazing. rashid khalidi (34:33.829)
This war, at least about 800 were killed. So it's the largest civilian death
toll. And there's a lot of anger in Israel about that. Not just at Hamas, obviously, but how did
we let this happen? And a lot of that is being directed at Netanyahu. And his political
survival is to some extent now linked to this war. And you can read the Israeli press
if you
're interested. They're after him all the time. All of them, now from center right to
left. Palestinian politics are deeply divided. and have been really since the establishment
of Hamas in the late 1980s. Palestinians are divided between the PLO on one side
that argues for two-state solution, a diplomatic solution, renounced violence,
and Hamas, which believes in armed struggle, in violence, doesn't, well, sometimes they
say they accept the two-state solution, but sometimes not, and is muc
h more
uncompromising. Let's put it that way. And was the group that launched
this attack on the 7th obviously a... of October. And that division is a huge
problem for the Palestinians and for anybody, I would argue, who wants a resolution.
It's a division that has been fostered and encouraged by outside parties, Israel
notably, divide and rule. You keep your opponent weak and you claim they're all a
bunch of terrorists and you don't have to negotiate and you can annex more land and
estab
lish more settlements and so on. And that's what governments under Netanyahu have
been doing for most of the past 15 years. Josh (35:56.764)
Hmph. rashid khalidi (36:02.277)
or so years. So that's the Palestinians. Finally, we have us, the United States. And I agree with
the premise of your question. A lot of this is, I think, affected by electoral politics. A lot of
this is affected by positioning by the president and the Democrats and leadership of the Democratic
Party and by, you know, fo
rmer President Trump and Republicans and the Republican Party, essentially
playing politics with this in different ways. Now, I think, I said at the very beginning,
I think most American governments, every American administration I can imagine,
past or future, would probably support Israel to a very large extent. That's been the
history of American policy since 1948, 47, when we voted for partition of Palestine and gave
most of Palestine to the Jewish minority. So the Jewish state was to be
established in most of
the country that had an Arab majority in 1947. Josh (36:51.195)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (37:01.125)
Go back to that if you want to talk about the history. So that's been American policy.
I would argue that we are now facing some really interesting, as we get into January in an election
year, we're facing some really interesting issues about the president's support for Israel, about
the Republican party trying to outbid him and say, you know, he's not supportive enough, or
whatever they might say, or playing it the other way. You see that on Ukraine. You have some
politicians saying, we shouldn't support you. great on the left of the Democratic Party and on
the right of the Republican Party. And I'm not, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a little of
that develops into 2024 in an election year. So that's a mess. Every, every one of the three
situations I mentioned is actually a mess. Finally, there's a global situation, which is
most countries in the world
, the global South and most other powers are beginning to see this
differently than the United States government. Will Wright (37:49.112)
Yeah. Josh (37:50.3)
Yes. rashid khalidi (38:01.625)
Okay? You've had now the British, the Germans, and the French separating themselves
from the United States, and those are the closest allies of the United States, in the world, as
well as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and calling for ceasefire, which the United
States categorically opposes, and it
is completely isolated globally now with Israel. And so you have
a global situation that's developing, which... Josh (38:25.457)
Hmph. rashid khalidi (38:28.525)
I think is also going to affect things. I don't know how. I'm not a crystal
ball gazer. But I spent a lot of time as a kid at the United Nations. I followed the
United Nations my whole life. I've written about it. And you look at those votes in
the General Assembly and they indicate a very clear trend. And you read what the
British
Foreign Secretary and the German Foreign Minister said the other day in an
op-ed. You listen to the French. The tide is moving. And you go to the Global South
and they see things completely different. They see Israel as a colonial reality, supported
by powers that were great colonial powers in their past. So you talk to a Jamaican,
or you talk to somebody from East Africa, or you talk to somebody from the Middle East,
or you talk to somebody from India. And they may be more supportive of I
srael or less, but
they see this through an anti-colonial frame, because that's their history. They have no love
for the British. They know the role of the British in Palestine. You talk to an Irish person,
and they will tell you, oh yeah, Lord Balfour! before he went and messed up Palestine, he messed
up Ireland as chief secretary in Dublin Castle from 18 whatever, and we call him Bloody Balfour.
You talk to a Jamaican and they'll tell you, oh, da da, and I mean, I'm not talking about
his
tory. I'm talking about people I talk to and what I read and the journalists I talk
to from India and from other parts of the world. And that's another thing that
people should be paying attention to, I think. This global, if you're thinking
of it in terms of American strategy. Will Wright (39:31.598)
Thank you. Josh (39:43.05)
Mmm. rashid khalidi (39:57.197)
Is it a really great thing to have everybody in the world aligned with China and
Russia and Iran? Which is the situation today. They'r
e closer to the position of countries
which are at the very least rivals of the United States than they are to the position
of the United States. Which is not to say the United States should or shouldn't do something
because everybody else thinks differently. It's just maybe that should be a consideration
in American foreign policy and strategy. Josh (40:02.617)
No. Josh (40:16.307)
Sure. Josh (40:20.451)
it should set off some alarm bells to wonder, hey, what's going on in the American peop
le who,
and I mean, I will say for all the faults that America has, in one sense, once it seems like
the voters going a certain way, politicians tend to lean that way once to get there with
a delay, no doubt, tragic delay, because yeah. rashid khalidi (40:37.565)
With a delay, tragically, tragically. I mean, I'm of the era of Vietnam. It took
years and years and years before public opinion realized this was a bad thing.
Afghanistan, Iraq, I mean, the people figured it out long before the po
liticians. And
I think that's happening here. I mean, if you look at the polls, it's very, very clear
that the president's policy is losing support. Josh (40:51.471)
in Afghanistan, right? We just saw this and we
pulled, I mean, it was a disaster. Josh (41:04.356)
Yeah. rashid khalidi (41:08.345)
It's very, very clear that especially among young people and among minorities and also trade unions,
I mean the mainstream media are not reporting United Auto Workers, the nurses, the electricians,
the postal workers have all come out for a ceasefire. I have not seen that reported in the
New York Times, a newspaper I loathe by the way. I read it every morning because I have to deal with
the media but I don't read it out of pleasure. Josh (41:21.106)
Whoa. rashid khalidi (41:38.233)
I promise you. My point is that there is a tide among especially young people and a lot of other
sectors of American society that follows the lines of what you just said. The people are smarter
than their l
eaders or than the politicians. Josh (41:39.908)
That's awesome. Josh (41:58.615)
So I want to dig into the ceasefire a little bit. And I know that you're
not a futurist. I get that. But you do understand cause and effect. And you do understand these
entities way better than I do. So given these recent developments, the things that we've been
talking about, including this veto of the US on the UN Security Council resolutions calling for
humanitarian ceasefire, like you've mentioned. rashid k
halidi (42:07.376)
Right. Josh (42:27.855)
What do you envision as a sustainable and lasting piece? What would that look like? And
again, I'm giving you an impossible question to answer, but we gotta talk about it. What would a
ceasefire even look like? What would Will and I need to see on the news if they actually would
ever report it that would make us feel like, oh man, that sounds like things are going well
in the Middle East and we should support this. rashid khalidi (42:55.229)
Yeah. L
et me distinguish between a sustainable and lasting peace
and a halt to these hostilities. I think that for us to get a sustainable, just
peace is going to require big changes in the United States and in Israel among the
Palestinians. So I frankly am very pessimistic. Josh (43:12.599)
Mmm, that's good, yeah. rashid khalidi (43:18.785)
about our having a sustainable peace. A sustainable and just peace
involves equal rights for everybody. We're very far away from that. And I could
go into thi
s if you want. You can't have one people's security established at the
expense of another people's insecurity, which is the current situation has been
the situation for generations. I mean, I hate to say it, but Palestinian insecurity
sort of established as the condition, Israel always have to be secure. That means we have to
have people in jail. That means we have to have Josh (43:35.322)
Yes. Josh (43:41.231)
That makes sense. rashid khalidi (43:48.753)
barbed wire and checkpoints and so o
n and so forth. They never used to say, well, that's
security. We can't be secure otherwise. You cannot do that. You cannot have one class of people whose
security is dependent on the insecurity of another class of people. You can't have laws where one
people has certain rights and another. And I don't wanna go there now because we're so far
away in Palestinian politics. Palestinians have to be unified, have to have a clear strategy,
have to be able to say, this is what we want. Palestinian
s had that back in the days of
the PLO. They don't really have it right now. They're divided. I've already said that. And
Israel is far away from accepting that they're going to have to change a lot of things if
they're ever going to have a sustainable, just, lasting peace. And our country, I mean,
we've been an obstacle to peace in Palestine. The United States helped to broker peace
between Egypt and Israel, between Jordan and Israel. They tried with Syria and Israel.
I was involved in so
me of those negotiations, not with Syria, between Israel and between
the Palestinians and the Israelis in the 90s. And the United States tried, but
as far as Palestine is concerned, most unhelpful. And that has to change. The
United States has been an obstacle to peace, in my view, where the Palestinians
are concerned. So let's not talk about peace. I'd love to. I mean, you know,
Palestinians are suffering. So my family, I mean, I have direct interest in having
peace. But unfortunately, as
a realist, I have to say, we're, with none of those
three parties, are we yet there. Now. Josh (45:06.107)
That makes sense, that makes sense. rashid khalidi (45:16.789)
What would I like to see? I would like to see an immediate
ceasefire. And I will tell you why I would like to see an immediate ceasefire,
an everlasting ceasefire. First of all, the humanitarian suffering that Israel and the
United States are imposing is not just inhuman, it will create more violence. You do this to
people
and you will breed inevitably, necessarily. Josh (45:36.703)
Absolutely, absolutely. rashid khalidi (45:43.133)
a horrible reaction, which will probably in some cases, unfortunately, be violent. I'm not
saying anything that anybody with any brains would argue with. I mean, the former defense secretary
of Britain just published an article in The Telegraph where he said the same thing. He said,
you know, fight Hamas, kill whatever. They're horrible. I hate them, but. And American generals,
so
me of them have said the same thing. I mean, Lloyd Austin, four-star general, current
secretary of defense, said the same thing. You can lose this war by doing what you're
doing to civilians. You can win tactically and you lose. So I would argue that even
from the point of view of Israel's interest, but certainly from the point
of view of the United States, what interest do we have in making two million
people suffer in front of the whole world? Just because our media prevents most people m
ost of
the time from seeing most of the suffering does not mean that people all over the world
are not seeing it. They're seeing it. Josh (46:31.609)
None. rashid khalidi (46:39.773)
MSNBC and CNN and Fox are not showing us what's going on in detail. Everybody else is seeing it.
And they're not just getting angry about the poor Palestinians or what the Israelis are, they're
getting angry at the United States. So I would argue this is an imperative from a humanitarian
perspective, but also f
rom a strategic perspective, even from an Israeli strategic
perspective. I'm not an Israeli, I'm not speaking for Israel, but I would say as an American, I
think it is in the American national interest. as a person who has a moral conscience,
I cannot see how we support this siege of 2.3 million people. I don't see it. I don't
understand why everybody doesn't see this as enormously counterproductive to American,
let alone Israeli interests. The Israelis, very strong country, take care of th
emselves. It's
against American interests. And it's certainly against the interests of everybody in the Middle
East who sympathizes with the Palestinians. I mean, we saw the first and biggest
demonstrations in Egypt for 10 years. Egypt doesn't allow demonstrations. They
were forced to allow them. We've seen the biggest demonstrations all across
the Middle East, Arab countries, Iran, Turkey. We've seen demonstrations
in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, all over the world. A million people in Lon
don.
Well, everybody's, everybody's pretty happy about this and everybody's calling for a ceasefire and
we, the United States is the obstacle. Now Israel. Will Wright (47:39.59)
Yeah. Will Wright (47:47.042)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (48:08.441)
might not accept, but that's their choice. If the United States says, no, we will
not veto a Security Council resolution. Or the United States says, we will land 100,000 tons of
supplies on the beaches in Gaza, and we'll shoot at you if you stop us. We'll
shoot at anybody
who stops us. I mean, we could do that. We could airdrop supplies without anybody being harmed.
The Jordanians, for heaven's sakes, are doing it. The Jordanian Air Force is doing it. A princess of
the royal family was photographed on Jordanian TV. dropping supplies to Gaza. I
mean, hello? Jordan is doing it, and we're not? So I mean, I think that is a
pretty straightforward ask. And obviously, it should be linked to the release of hostages,
obviously, the civilian hostages
especially, Israeli civilian hostages. It should
be linked to the Palestinian prisoners, most of whom, in my view, are also
hostages. Israel arrests people. Will Wright (48:37.646)
Thanks for watching. I'm sorry. Hmm. Yeah. rashid khalidi (49:05.529)
has been arresting people in the West Bank literally by the hundreds. They
have 7,000 people in jail, of whom a couple of thousand have never been indicted, charged,
tried, convicted. They're just administratively detained. Okay? It's the kind
of thing that we
have a constitution, and the British have a Magna Carta to prevent. You just don't arrest people
without bringing them to trial, charging them, inditing them, convicting them. Israel does that
systematically. It's an old British colonial law. Will Wright (49:08.426)
Mm-hmm. rashid khalidi (49:34.577)
going back to the British mandate, that the Israelis have used on Palestinians mainly,
ever since Israel was established. Well, you know, those are hostages as far as I'm concer
ned, just
like those Israeli civilians who were captured and taken in violation of international humanitarian
law into Gaza and are now trying to survive God knows where in the tunnels, I suppose. Some
of whom have been killed by Israeli bombing. And that's why there's this enormous movement
inside Israel, families of the hostages saying, Will Wright (49:35.042)
Yeah. Will Wright (49:56.536)
Mm. rashid khalidi (50:04.121)
whatever they want, release prisoners, just get our people out. So I m
ean, I would
argue that those are things that should be, all of those things, a ceasefire, a
hostage exchange, release, whatever, should be done forthwith. And this humanitarian
crisis should be ended by a massive global effort. Just to, so that people have food and water
and electricity and fuel, I mean, basics. Will Wright (50:15.363)
Hmm. Will Wright (50:21.87)
That's it. Will Wright (50:26.386)
Yeah. And some of those hostages were even shot by the idea of soldiers.
Sadly. You know, I w
as thinking, I feel very empathetic, and there may be some pathetics, the
word, for folks in Congress that do show support or compassion for a lot of the Palestinians.
So, you know, like Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib. rashid khalidi (50:31.713)
Right, three of them were killed. Will Wright (50:55.198)
I mean, she was censured before for some of her comments, actions, what have you.
And I feel like a lot of like, where I feel like where she's coming from is from a sense of she
knows people in P
alestine. She has relatives, family members, she understands kind of the
dynamics better than most Americans do. I mean, like, if we're being honest, like most Americans
don't really follow global politics, right? So. They just kind of catch the five second clip on
whatever. And they're like, they draft an entire narrative about what's happening over there.
Right. So I'd love for you to maybe kind of talk about some of the behind the scenes stuff within
the Palestinian politics that allows
groups like Hamas to do what they did and are doing. Because
I think it's easy for Americans to think, well, to group Hamas and the broader Palestinian
population together and say, well, if they're allowing them to fire mortars from the
hospital, then aren't they just complicit? So I'd love for you to just talk about the behind
the scenes like a Palestinian government. rashid khalidi (52:10.137)
I mean, we haven't got much time left. And that's because I'll take a deep dive into
it. And you
tell me if I've gone too deep. Yeah, one of the sad things about Palestinian
politics is that from the 70s into the 80s, the mainstream in Palestinian politics,
which is represented by the PLO. Will Wright (52:12.216)
Mm-hmm. Will Wright (52:17.651)
Okay. Josh (52:18.616)
You're good to go, man. rashid khalidi (52:31.777)
was moving towards a compromise with Israel. And in 1988, the Palestinians changed
their charter, the PLO changed its charter, renounced violence, accepted a two-state
sol
ution, called for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, and was overwhelmingly
popular among Palestinians. And it was in that context that Hamas was established,
saying, no, you guys have compromised too much, you're gonna give up on violence,
we're gonna continue to use violence. The tragedy is that in the 1990s, when there were
negotiations, I was an advisor to the Palestinian delegation in the negotiations that started in
Madrid and continued in Washington for a couple of years. And then
later on, the PLO negotiated
directly with Israel and they negotiated the Oslo Accords. I don't want to go into the weeds here.
The Oslo Accords did not fundamentally change the situation of the Palestinians. It actually
made their situation worse. What do I mean? We didn't have checkpoints
before Oslo. We didn't have a wall before Oslo. We didn't have
Palestinians banned from working in Israel before Oslo. Palestinian GDP
per capita was higher before Oslo. Palestinian movement was freer.
I could
go on and on and on. The Oslo Accords did not bring the Palestinians
nearer to a Palestinian state. They established a Palestinian authority
that had no authority, no jurisdiction, no sovereignty. Israel still has security control
over the entirety of what used to be Palestine, Israel and the occupied territories. That turned
people away from a peaceful solution. The failure of the PLO to achieve any Palestinian goals. In
fact, the result was Palestinians were worse off. gave supp
ort to Hamas and what has
happened in the last 15 or 20 years, the failure of the United States to push
for a negotiated solution with two states, any other kind of real solution, and just
to allow Israeli settlements to expand and expand. When we went to Asla, when we went to
Madrid, sorry, I never went to Asla in my life, when we went to Madrid there were about
100,000 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. There are 750,000 now in
the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. rashid kha
lidi (54:38.849)
That's the result of Oslo. That's how Palestinians see it. And so when people
come and say there's nothing but violence, by not supporting, by not encouraging, by not
forcing negotiations that the majority wanted and still wants. I mean, there are polls
that say Palestinians still, by a majority, want a two-state solution, negotiate a two-state
solution. By not doing anything in that regard. You in effect are pushing Palestinians towards
Hamas. That is what has happened. As
a result, partly of our policy, as a result of Israeli
policy, as a result of the effectiveness of Palestinian politicians. I mean, you
want me to start on Palestinian politics, I could talk about how bad I think the PLO
leadership and the Hamas leadership have been. That's a Palestinian issue.
So it's not just the Americans or just the Israelis or the international
community. But if you look at overall, where have there been denotations for
the last 15 years? Nothing, nothing. Will Wrigh
t (55:21.274)
Thank you. rashid khalidi (55:36.733)
towards a real solution? Nothing. And that, I mean, what is left for people who are living
under occupation for 56 years? Military occupation means no law. It means no rights. It means you
are at the arbitrary discretion of a 19-year-old with a gun, who never, never is held accountable
for his or her actions. Nobody's ever punished. for shooting a Palestinian. I mean,
what happened to those poor hostages happens to Palestinians all the
tim
e. Those three hostages who escaped from Hamas and were shot down by
Israeli soldiers in a combat situation, that happens in non-combat situations all over
Palestine all the time. Look at the casualty tolls. Some of the guys are militants who
are killed. Huge numbers are civilians. And that's what military occupation is like.
And that's what Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem have
lived under since 1967. And we have allowed that to happen. We don't even try and
say
occupation must end. We don't even say, the United States government no longer says
occupation is illegal. We have encouraged a situation that has produced support for Hamas.
I mean, I hate to say that, but it's true, unfortunately. I'm sorry, that was a long
answer here. All right, short question. Will Wright (56:52.91)
It was great. Josh (56:53.255)
Oh no, I mean that was really good. I mean we have, you know, we don't have a lot of time
left but one thing that I would want to ask is,
you know, addressing our audience again, which is
fairly diverse, what would you want them to hear from your heart? I mean, you've been speaking
on that, but even beyond just policy stuff. It can be, it can include Polly's stuff, of
course, whatever you feel relevant to share. But what kind of speak from your heart as to
what you want them to understand most about this conflict and about what's happening. Is there
anything that you feel like they can do or any ways that they can be involve
d to be towards
a solution instead of being a part of the... part of the expanding problem. rashid khalidi (57:51.933)
I mean, what I always say to anybody I talk to about this is however far away this is
and however distant it seems, we as Americans are deeply involved. And we have to inform
ourselves about this because morally we are. complicit in whatever happens. If there's not
peace, or if there is peace, if there's death and deprivation or there's not, we're part of
this. Israel is an
independent state, it does what it wants, but it does it with 3.8 billion
dollars a year in American military assistance. Every year, 3.8 billion. Those are our weapons.
Every airplane that the Israeli Air Force flies is an American plane. F-35s, F-15s, F-16s.
Their helicopters are Apaches. Those are American. Their artillery, 155, 175, that's
American. The shells, the bombs, the rockets, most of them are American. So we are involved,
like it or not, distant or not. It is our... It is our
actions or our inaction that
contribute to those outcomes. And I think, and to the humanitarian situation.
I mean, we have a responsibility, unfortunately. The United States helped create
this problem. The United States has tried to solve this problem. The United States is part
of the problem, and part necessarily of the solution. And I think the very least people
should do is inform themselves. And there's a ton of stuff out there that they can look at,
partisan and nonpartisan and, you k
now, whatever. Don't believe what's in the mainstream media.
Much of it is just, should be ignored. There's lots of other sources. And express your concerns
to the people who are supposed to represent us. rashid khalidi (59:40.929)
If you're not happy about it, tell them. It actually has an effect. As you
rightly said, the people are smarter than their leaders. It takes a long time before they
finally will respond. But they have to respond sooner or later. And I hope we can be part of the
p
roblem. I mean, a lot of people are suffering, Palestinians obviously, but also Israelis,
and everybody who feels connected to them. And that's a religious connection. And
that's an ethnic connection. I mean, Muslims. There are Palestinian
Christians in a church in Gaza, two of whom were killed by snipers the other day.
And the pope has raised a fuss. It's a Catholic church. The pope has raised a fuss. One of the
hospitals that was bombed was a Baptist hospital. Josh (01:00:23.568)
Mm. rash
id khalidi (01:00:25.369)
And whether people are being used as human shields or whatever,
there's international humanitarian law, which says you can only do x, y, z
to competence, but you can't do a, b, c to non-competence. There are rules about
that. And the United States talks airily about this. We should be, if we really
believe in international law, we should be arguing strongly for a much more rigorous
interpretation of that law. I'm not a lawyer. Josh (01:00:50.491)
Hmm. rashid khalid
i (01:00:51.649)
But I've read a lot of this stuff. And I don't think that's what's happening out there. Whatever
the president may say, whatever the politicians may say. And both parties are actually pretty much
on the same, singing the same tune where Israel is concerned. And I don't think that necessarily
represents the grassroots of either party, frankly. I think people should make their voices
heard. If they don't agree, if they agree, fine. That's another thing. So I really
think peop
le should learn more and speak up. Josh (01:01:04.784)
Right. Josh (01:01:20.367)
You know, it's funny because that's not the right word I'm trying to
say. Nothing about this is funny. It's all very tragic. But what I was... So there's, I got to ask
a question. I know this is like, I just said this was the last question, but now it's the actual
last question before I kind of let you help us understand how we can learn more about it and
all that stuff, where we can find info, but... So when t
he, and I'm terrible with
politics, I always forget names, but when the representative said that from, what
is it, from the Jordan, from the river to the sea, can you help? Yeah, Palestine will
be free. And I had people say to me, well, this person said that, and you know what
that means, right? And I didn't know what that means. And I kind of heard what they thought
said that means. I'd like to hear from you. What does that mean and why is it
such a rallying call for Palestine? rashid kha
lidi (01:02:23.921)
Well, because from the river to the sea, which is mandatory Palestine, and which
is Israel in the occupied territories, this is a territory completely controlled by
Israel. Palestinians are not free. Inside Israel, they do have the vote. There's 20% of the Israeli
population are Palestinians. But they are... They live in segregated communities.
They are deprived in many ways. They're among the poorest people in Israel. And
there are multiple discriminatory laws against t
hem. Though they're free,
but everywhere else in Palestine, Palestinians are not free. They live under
occupation or in this open air prison of Gaza. So what it means is Palestinians should
be free in their ancestral homeland. It doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of Israel.
Doesn't mean the killing of Jews. Anybody who interprets it that way is free to interpret it
as they wish. It's not what Palestinians mean. not what I would guess representative
Klaib meant or what most Palestini
ans mean when they say it. Palestinians are
unfree. Israelis are free from the river to the sea. Israelis can go anywhere
they want under Israeli law. They're not under military law. Palestinians on the West
Bank are in military law, but not Israelis. And so actually from the river to the sea is
an area which Israel has controlled since 1967, which Israel is busy annexing parts
of and spreading its population into. the program of the Likud party, which is one of
the governing, the governin
g, the leader of the governing coalition in Israel today, and its
platform said, from the sea to the river there will only be Israeli sovereignty. And that's in
fact what has happened since 1977, which is when that was the party platform. So on the one hand,
Israel has actually taken over the whole land from the river to the sea, and Israelis are free,
and Palestinians are not. So it's a rallying cry. rashid khalidi (01:04:12.161)
It has nothing to do with Palestinian politics. It's a slogan
in English. It doesn't
rhyme in Arabic. People don't say that in Arabic. Interestingly enough, from the river to the sea,
Palestine will be free. It's English language rallying in cry for demonstrators who may not
actually know what it means. And I don't think intended to have, quote unquote, genocidal intent.
Some people take it that way. But that's not what Palestine is. We see our people as unfree in
their entirety of their ancestral homeland. Josh (01:04:18.803)
I'm sorry. Josh (01:04:
30.264)
Right. Josh (01:04:34.732)
Yeah. rashid khalidi (01:04:41.665)
A place where right now Israeli Jews consider themselves not only to
be free, but most of them think they're sovereign and the soul sovereign. I could
go on and on into those legal questions. Josh (01:04:41.862)
Mmm. Josh (01:04:49.799)
Bye. Yeah, well, I appreciate
that explanation. I wanted to hear it because I hear popular level
explanations, which essentially, well, that just means they want genocide. They want
all I
srael to be destroyed. And I'm like, okay. rashid khalidi (01:04:58.565)
All right. rashid khalidi (01:05:03.303)
Well... In 2018, the Israeli Knesset
passed something called the Israel, the nation state of the Jewish people
law, which is a constitutional law, it has constitutional force, which said
that in Israel, the only people with the right of self-determination are the Jewish
people. And as far as they're concerned, all of what used to be mandatory Palestine is
Israel. So they're sayi
ng there's only one people here. They're basically denying the Palestinians
have national rights in their ancestral home. Josh (01:05:27.396)
Hmm. rashid khalidi (01:05:34.361)
Now that's not genocidal, but it's, Israeli sociologists called it politicized,
denying that the Palestinians have political rights in their ancestral home. So Israel
has actually done this. And so you have a bunch of students or a bunch of
demonstrators raising a slogan, where on the other hand, Israel has
made this
part of its constitution. So, you know, on the one hand, on the other hand,
I wrote an op-ed about this saying, you know, Josh (01:05:37.221)
Right. Josh (01:05:40.986)
Let aside. Josh (01:05:45.531)
That's a really useful term. Josh (01:05:58.026)
Right. rashid khalidi (01:06:02.741)
university administrators and people in Congress are howling about the slogan,
well look what Israel's actually done in its laws, in the platform of this government when it
was formed in December. That kind of
stuff is, you know, the mainstream in Israel. It
is government, it's constitutional. So, I mean, again, we've gotten into the
weeds here, but I think that these are all really good questions and they don't
get asked, unfortunately, often enough. Josh (01:06:09.104)
Mm. Josh (01:06:23.543)
Oh, I love it though. It's so good. Josh (01:06:31.651)
Well, I'm glad to be able to ask it and hear your response. And it's been such a pleasure
to have you on Rashid. How can people keep up with your work
? And even what do you recommend
for them as a balanced book or documentary or professor or whatever? Obviously yourself,
your writings, but what would you recommend as another balanced sense of like a history of
Palestine, things like that? Is there anything? you would recommend to help people understand
this in a more comprehensive and holistic way. rashid khalidi (01:07:05.597)
I mean, I would obviously recommend what I write. I wrote a book called The Hundred
Years War on Palestine, whi
ch is... Yeah, I would... The Hundred Years War on Palestine.
Now, obviously, it's explicitly written from a Palestinian perspective. But there's 45 pages of
footnotes. You don't have to read the footnotes. But if you wanna see why isn't he saying what
he's saying, it's that they're there for you. Josh (01:07:12.291) We recommend it as well.
100 Year War on Palestine. Josh (01:07:22.739)
Sure, yeah. Josh (01:07:28.903)
But you should. rashid khalidi (01:07:33.997)
There are a number of reall
y great Israeli historians. One of my
good friends used to teach at Oxford, a man named Abiy Shlaim, S-H-L-A-I-M, Abiy,
first name, Shlaim. He's originally from an Iraqi Jewish family, taught at Oxford for
his whole career. He wrote a wonderful book called The Iron Wall about Israel and the
Arabs. And there are many other really fine Israeli historians I could recommend. And many
other, you know, American and European and... Palestinian historians. But I
would start with Abby and myself. J
osh (01:08:09.803)
That's great. That's awesome. And I would recommend, obviously,
Will and I recommend any of our listeners and watchers to come check out your work.
You have all sorts of op-eds and articles. I'm sure they can just Google, well, I know
that because I've done it, Rashid Khalidi, and you will find all your works. I really
appreciate it. Do you have any other projects in the docket? Are you working on another book that
you would want to let people know about right now? rashid
khalidi (01:08:25.085)
You see the point. rashid khalidi (01:08:38.337)
I'm working on a book on Ireland, Britain, and Palestine. Some of the connections between what
Britain was doing in Ireland, the methods that Britain used in its empire, and how those methods
were applied to Palestine, and the impact of that on Israel and the Palestinians, and on Ireland
going forward. It's a big project. I just started it. I've been spending some time in Ireland.
Well, it'll take me some time to write
it. Josh (01:09:01.479)
Wow. Well, dude, I can't wait to read it. Josh (01:09:09.832)
Well, thank you so much for joining the program, Rashid. It's
really been a pleasure to have you on. rashid khalidi (01:09:16.441)
So thank you both for having me. I appreciate the thoughtful questions. I don't always
get such serious questions. I appreciate it. Will Wright (01:09:16.46)
Mm-hmm. Josh (01:09:24.363)
Well, I'm absolutely, really appreciate you answering them. To our
listeners and watchers, thi
s has been Professor Rashid Khalidi. Again, you can look him up on
Google, follow him. He's at Columbia University and look for his writings. We recommend you pick
him up and check it out to get a more holistic view of this situation. This has been Josh.
And of course, Will, thanks for being with us, Will. And until next time, guys, don't
keep your conversations left or right. but God bless and have a great. rashid khalidi (01:09:56.793)
Thank you. Will Wright (01:09:57.024)
Thanks.
Comments
This was so incredibly informative! Thank you so much!