PERIPHERY: Trashing “Djent Is Not A Genre,” Video Game Addiction, And Playing With No Pants

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Riff Hard podcast. My guests today are the three guitar players for Periphery Masher, Mansoor, Jake Bowen and Mark Holcomb. I know you're familiar with them. We've had them on before, but we all love them and I'm happy to have them on any time. They have a new album called Periphery Five. Gent is not a genre. Let's get into this. Jake, Misha. Mark Welcome back to the Riverside podcast. Thanks for having us be here. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. So on the record, the

new one, I know that it was like a tough process to finish it. And I'm curious about that because I think it's really, really relevant for a bunch of people listening. Like, how do you get through that with other people? Because lots of bands break up when they're in the studio or trying to write something and some people feel like it's not there yet. Other people don't feel that way. And to eventually like come to a consensus and do what it takes to actually come out with a really sick record.

I think that that's kind of rare. So I want to talk about what was that process like for you guys and how do you deal with the frustration of thinking it's there, but it's not. And, you know, dealing with other people's expectations for it, etc.? All the above. There is a couple of things at play there that probably wouldn't have been present if it was like kind of like a. Normal. Few years. And obviously, like the biggest thing was COVID and it kind of it's stretched everything out to like unre

asonable amounts of time to where like it took us a lot of sessions to kind of figure out where we're going, what we're recording and like, you know what we wanted this album to sound like. And I think because of quarantine and like being home and kind of like being so far apart from each other, I think our priorities shifted a little bit, or at least it seemed like it at the time. So it's really like, no, exactly how that was going to play out. And I think because of that, I think we wrote like

a whole album's worth of stuff before we decided that we needed to like kind of like turn in a different direction. And that was probably like the biggest thing that like, took the wind out of our sales. So if you ever hear us say like, Oh, it was a hard process, that was probably like the beginning of it, like being pretty hard. You know, we set out to do a concept record and then it turned out that we that probably wasn't the best idea. I'll let the other guys elaborate on why that happened.

But, you know, that's kind of like the the beginning part of it. You know, the thing about that is, though, like so many people will start something and feel weird about it, but they put so much time in that they won't change directions, like they won't correct course because it'll mean ditching a bunch of work or redoing a bunch of work. And I think I think people get attached to things just because they spent a long time on it. So I think it's actually really cool that you guys got as far as y

ou did and were like, This just shit ain't right. Start over. Yeah, that's you know, we're not immune to that, by the way. Like, we definitely feel the pain and the hurt of having to kind of take a hard, cold, hard look at our creations. I think, because everybody, you know, always wants to put their best foot forward and, you know, work within the challenges that are presented to us. And, you know, or we all come into this with like really good intentions. And I think that's why it kind of does

n't take as long for us to arrive at that decision. But it still is an easy it's still like, you know, I, I wonder if we kind of spent more time than we should have on certain things and stuff. But anyways, I've been, you know, I've been chatting enough about that. What are the other guys think? What was the question again. That was joking. Oh Mackie, you go. Yeah. I mean, everything Jake Jake saying is completely true. I think, you know, there's a tendency to want to stick to your guns because

of how much time you've put into something. Like, I remember when we started having discussions to pivot pretty deep into the writing recording process. It was it was like a punch directly to the stomach. We were all varying degrees of demoralized, but all of us, you know, all of us are pretty bummed out. And I think what it what it comes down to as far as bouncing back is trust and respect for the guy next to you. And that's I mean, I've thought about this so many times since we finished the re

cord, but I don't know if this record gets made ten years ago, you know, eight years ago or at a different point in our history, because I think we've learned to sort of establish that trust and that faith in each other. And if it's not sitting right with one person, it's not okay. And we have to have discussions. We have to come to some sort of arrangement where everybody can be, you know, some degree of happy. And, you know, it's not a perfect record in every person's eyes in the band, but it

can be this thing where, you know, a person resents a song or a part or a vocal line. It has to make everybody happy to some degree. And that's why our music takes so long these days. I think it's also why it makes it more fulfilling for all of us these days. It's a very complex trade off and in the end, you know, I think it really pulled us through this record. And to me, that's I think that's the only reason this record got done, because I think it would have broken a lot of bands. It would ha

ve, you know, hearing the Hey, guys. I think it's I think, you know, all this material you've been working on, let's let's just ditch it. Let's try writing it. I think, you know, a lot of people would have went postal and maybe just threw their arms up in the air and said, hey, let's just let's just say fuck this record. I know that I've had problems with people over the years, like when I was producing or X Band members or whatever, where I wanted to just ditch lots of stuff that I thought wasn

't good enough. Whether I was hired to work with a band or whatever the context was. And very few people are cool with that, with that concept of something's not good enough, no matter how hard you worked on it, it's just not right. We got to we got to keep going. I mean, I know I know myself personally that when that's happened to me, usually I'm okay with it, but not always Like it definitely can sting or can be demoralizing. But I've never regretted making that decision. And that's the thing.

Like anytime that I've had to make that call haven't once regretted it. It's always been the right call. But it got so bad. Voice sucks so bad in the moment. Yeah. Good, good. It sucks worse to keep it. I think I agree. I don't know about you guys, but like, there's a voice in my head when I don't like something. Something musical and it doesn't go away. Like I don't learn to like things like. So there's things from like ten years ago or longer where I kind of I knew something wasn't good enoug

h, but I just kind of let it go. And to this day, those parts still bug me and I do regret not changing them. But the parts that were changed, I don't remember what the previous version was like. So to me, it's it's a great thing. It just sucks, but it's got to be done. I think everyone in our band can relate to that and probably has parts in the past that make them feel exactly the same way. So that's why everyone being happy is so important and also knowing that everyone can be happy, especial

ly as of late. We've put out albums that we all feel really good about, so knowing that that's a bar that we should be aiming for. It just it just means that if we're not there, we could be almost there. But if it's not working, it is kind of better just ditch it and move on to the next thing. And we're trying to be efficient with our time. All this stuff was really exacerbated by the unpredictability of when we'd be able to meet next for the next session. Normally it'd be like, All right, you k

now, let's digest this, meet up in like a month or two or whatever. But here was just a big question mark. The logistics of of meeting up was just so complicated, both with, you know, travel restrictions and all that. With the pandemic. But also, Matt just had a kid and he's being extra cautious and he wasn't there for a lot of the sessions, which, you know, that's not ideal. But we were trying to do Zoom calls and whatever, but we kind of learned the hard way that for us, at least, that doesn't

really work. And lo and behold, when we all got together as a group, we were actually making progress. So I'd say the main challenge was that we can write, you know, that's that's our strength, is that we can if we get into a room, we can write and we can write a lot of stuff, but we can get a lot of ideas too, like 70, 80% of the way easily. That's that's super easy. Getting that last 20 to 30% and getting something that's appropriate for vocals and even more that vocals work really well and t

hat it feels collaborative in that Spencer is happy with it and feels inspired by it because none of us can write lyrics to save our lives, you know, as much as we might help with other aspect of the vocals, you know, he has to feel like he's writing about something that's important. He has to feel like this song is something that that, that he can express himself with. So hitting all of that stuff is very tough, even without a pandemic. And when you have those restrictions, it just makes it a l

ot tougher and it really slow down the process. So that's probably the main thing. And I think as Mark alluded to, like a big part of it is just talking and talking, talking to each other with respect. If you're talking and sort of already assuming the worst of of someone else, which can be natural when when you have feelings that fester or whatever, that's counterproductive. And I think one of the things that we've realized over the years and this is why when Mark said, you know, maybe we could

n't have made this in the past and I would agree with that, is just being able to have like these good faith discussions and respectful discussions and be open to to perspectives that you may not have thought of. You may not know entirely what someone else is going through, but their perspective is valid and it's very difficult with charged material if you're working on a song, there's this very special affinity that you have for it and it's irrational and it's not really it doesn't seem to last

past like working on the song, but just while you're working on it and immediately after, it feels very, very special. And any sort of criticism of it sort of hurts Doubly so. And it's funny how like working on the next idea that you're stoked on can sort of get rid of that rose tinted look, which is why always we like to take a month or two to digest everything because you can see the stuff that's actually good and the stuff that's like, Oh, we were just hyped in the moment. But all of these f

actors can really contribute to the discussions potentially getting heated and people not realizing that they're talking about completely different things. So when it sounds like, Oh, we don't like this idea or Hey, we've got to change this or this isn't working, you don't realize that this is actually a much deeper issue that maybe has nothing to do with music, but that's manifesting in such a way. So basically it just becomes like any other relationship where communication is extremely importa

nt, except it goes five ways in our case and gets very complicated. It sounds complicated. So how long did it take from when the pivot conversation started till you guys made the decision, or was it kind of this gradual thing like where you have a bunch of songs but not really filling them? Like, how did that like, how did you get that far? And then pivot like, was it just I'm trying to understand like if you guys were hyped on it in the moment, like you just said, or like you were just trying t

o get something done so concisely. It's that we wanted to do a single the juggernaut, too. We were writing up a concept and it just wasn't inspiring to Spencer. It felt like we were going through the motions for him especially, and he would have the majority of the work because lyrically he had to put it all together. We had a general story or whatever, but once it starts to feel like we're forcing something rather than having fun with something, we all start to question if this makes sense. So

that's that's kind of what happened. It was this thing where we were all like, I don't think any of us are stoked about doing this. And then once you have that realization, well, we don't have to do this. It's like, cool, So that's a weight off your shoulders. But it's also like, Wow, we just wrote like almost an album's worth of material within the context of this is what this is going to be and the next session. Yeah, it was a bit demoralizing because it's just like, Oh man, we're starting fro

m scratch. And I'd say a bit of the pressure is because we were. How far in were we at that point? Guys like year and a half. Like, I want to say a year, a year and a half and dude, we storyboarded like we came up with a story, like a fully fleshed out story. There's a cool. Story. Yeah, yeah, it was cool. I mean, I hope we still have it documented somewhere because it would be a great follow up. Took pictures of the dry erase board. Good song. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, we just went above and beyo

nd kind of, you know, planning it out and getting ready to make this our thing. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's kind of swept out from under us. But like Misha was saying, it's like we couldn't force it, you know? And the moment we all started to collectively realize, it was like, okay, well, it doesn't feel like there's a lot of wind in these sails. It sucked to pivot, but at the same time, it's like, Oh, what are we going to do? Like keep pushing on and and make a record that we like?

That's my nightmare, you know, like, that's pretty I'm pretty sure it's all of our nightmares in this band is like releasing a record that we're terrified to put out because we all think it secretly sucks. Like, that's a terrible option. Yeah. Yeah. Figure out the solution eventually, though, and we always, like, I guess everybody has a differing view of what the band looks like to them, but I always like, Dude, our band is like a huge Glee collaborative and we are. But the answer seem to be is

okay, now we have to be even more collaborative. And what that means is, is like generally Misha, Mark and myself get together and we kind of shape ideas or the basis of an idea and we get an arrangement going and then we present it to Spencer and Matt, and then they kind of bring their notes in on it. But I think what we found is like, especially Spencer, having Spencer there during this creation process kind of took out these this like middle step and put Spencer directly in the producer's ch

air for a lot of the stuff. And it made him have a lot more ownership of what we were writing, the three of us. And it also kind of made it so we, we didn't the three of us didn't get attached to something, send it to Spencer and then you know, he can't kind of form his ideas over it. So there's probably a little bit more to it than that. But that's kind of like the the summary of how how we were able to get over that hump. I feel like once once you and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm imagining

that no matter how depressing it must have been, the moment that you started on the new direction and it was actually sick. Everyone was happy. Or am I wrong? I don't think it's ever that simple. I'm sorry, Jake. You go ahead. No, no, no. You go head to head. I mean, I don't want to speak too much about Spencer's business here, but, like, he had a he had a tough time, like, just in his personal life. And I think that and the pandemic really messed with his head as it did a lot of our friends an

d as it did a lot of us, you know, especially some of our more social friends, were sort of relegated to just staying at home and doing Zoom calls or whatever, living like. The rest of us. Right. Like it's it's just it's yeah, I was I was pretty immune to it. But Yeah, but but but but some people some people had a really tough time with it. I know Spence had a really tough time with it and he started to to, to question whether he was even appropriate for our band and whether he was like the righ

t singer for us. And I was like, Jesus, like, where is this coming from? And we realize there's like a much deeper thing going on. So we we talked to him, you know, we had we had some very, very open, vulnerable conversations, you know, that needed to happen because like, of course, he's like, it wouldn't even cross our mind that that would ever cross his mind, you know. But some people sometimes, you know, and he's not the kind of guy he likes to he doesn't really like to burden anyone with wha

t he's going through. So he'll always put on a brave face and then you realize like, oh my God, you've been dealing with all of this. Like, if we had known, like, we would have talked to you about it and it's all like sort of hitting him at once, you know? And yeah, I don't want to get too much into his business, but it was a tough time for him and we had to be there for that. And I'm glad that we were there for that, you know, because it's such a foreign concept to me that Spencer would think t

hat he's like, he's the only guy I could picture being our singer, you know? And to him, in his mind, he was sort of like going down these rabbit holes of like, maybe the guys don't want me in the band or something, which is just insane, you know? And once we talked that out, that was a big step because it was like it was kind of getting back to reality, getting back to the baseline in a way, you know. But that was a direct result of the pandemic and the ripple effects of it, you know, combined

with some of the personal stuff going in his life, that was pretty tough. And it's it's funny how these things can sort of compound before your very eyes. And then you're starting you're starting to think things that are maybe unrecognizable to all your friends. And it takes like a pretty serious conversation to be like, Hey, man, like this. This isn't the case at all. Like, we're all here. We're all the team. You know? And then we love you. You know. I noticed with the pandemic that the isolati

on still, even for me, being that I'm super introverted and don't like hanging out with people anyways, even for me, the pandemic was very strange in terms of the isolation factor. And it definitely is true that the more isolated you are, the more you live with your thoughts and the more that they just become your reality. No matter what, how crazy they are. Maybe you don't have anything to really, I guess, bounce those thoughts off of you. You're just kind of like with yourself the whole time.

It makes sense how someone can just go down this weird ass rabbit hole. Yeah, that's not consistent with reality because they don't have there's no there's no gauge, you know, to go against really when you're in isolation. But it also shows what a mental game music can be. It's kind of like when you look at sports or anything like that, you that I think that we're like at the level of like pro athletes. But when you see these guys are all competing at this level and they're all basically as good

as each other, it becomes a mental game and you realize how much that can affect everything, right? Because once we had that conversation and once Spencer understood that, like, yes, we want we're very happy with him as our singer, then he was just like inspired and like then the idea is just didn't stop. It was just like, so that's when we sort of hit our stride and we're like, That's what I think. We all started to feel really good about this album, and we started to make very good progress,

you know? And ironically, we can't feel like we finished the song until Spencer's got vocals and we're all kind of signing off on it and happy. So like that kind of solved all the problems or the main ones, you know, I'd say I'd say the final piece was actually getting Matt to come out, which again, solely pandemic related, you know, and we all were very understanding of like, yeah, you just said a kid, but you got to be really careful with that. But we figured that out and then once we all got

in the room and we had this new approach and angle and everyone is kind of on the same page then, then the progress was very quick, relatively speaking. One thing I think that got the ball rolling right around this turning point was Spencer realizing he was able to just write lyrics about his life. You know, once we abandoned the concept record idea, the floodgates opened for him to be able to write about himself. And he had so much to say about what he had endured through the pandemic, what had

, you know, what he'd gone through overall in his life. And once we started to hear the ideas that were charged with his own experiences as opposed to him, you know, trying to I don't want to say shoehorn, but he was writing about he was attempting to write about this fictional character in the story we created. But he's just like like Mischa was saying, like he wasn't whole all the way, you know? And I feel like depending on who you are, it's very hard to force that to write about this, you kno

w, this fictional story when you're not all together and having that adjustment that that course corrects where he was able to say, all right, well, I'm just going to write about what I've been through. Then the idea sort of flowing like there was a big turning point. We started to get ideas sent to us, like we started to get He would just text us a verse to Texas, a chorus, and it was all killer. So there was just an enormous turning point. Once you was able to sort of write about his own exper

iences, it seems. I don't know about about you guys, but for me personally, like I don't write lyrics at all and I am capable of doing stuff for hire. But if my brain's not in it, like even if I'm paid to do something or hired to do something or everyone agreed to do something, if like the light bulbs not coming on, like there's nothing I can do to get myself there, like give an idea or a project just is not jiving with me. Like there's it's like literally impossible. And and so I guess I kind o

f get it that it makes a lot of sense that if it was kind of being forced on him. Not really forced exactly. But like, if he wasn't really invested in that idea and not where he was at artistically, it makes perfect sense to me at least that just starting from scratch would have done it starting from scratch, and giving him the freedom to do his thing, even if he had the freedom before and just didn't realize it in and of itself. I think that that's that's a really, really big deal. I don't know

about you guys, but like, it's really tough for me to to work on something that I'm not into for whatever reason, which. Is that's probably true of most creatives, you know, regardless of your your field. I think I know some people who are good at it though. So I'm constantly and all. That's why I have so much respect for people who write for music or for I. For music. Yeah, write for music, write for movies and video games. Yeah. It's like it doesn't matter what they're working on, what they'r

e working on could suck, but they will still bring it, you know, ten out of ten. I don't know what those people are made of, but I definitely don't have it. I don't get it. The dude in my band, Jesse's already he he does that for a living. He's constantly writing like every single day. And he is on cool projects, but he can also do it on projects that aren't cool. And I know a few times I've tried to write stuff for money and it's just been like shitty, just been a shitty experience. Like I can'

t engage that part of my brain that comes on when I'm writing my own stuff. So when I look at like Jesse or I look at someone like Mick Gordon or something like that, so those dudes who just write for people and companies, it's very, very impressive that they can access that part of their brain for somebody else's project, basically. So it's impressive. It's like they're following. They have to not only follow a set of various specific instructions, but they also have to make it sound like they,

you know, they put their whole heart into it. And those things, I can't line them up. Like I remember like a few years ago, I wanted to take a stab at like doing like trailer style music. And a friend of mine sent me this diagram of how it's supposed to be laid out. And I'm like, looking at it and it's just like, this is not the way that I think about music, you know? And I, I really struggle with kind of assembling it based on how these things are supposed to work. It's done to a formula. And

I'm not sure that a lot of people are aware of that. So, you know, I agree with you like it's if your if if I'm not fully invested in it, like there's no way I'm going to be able to work. It's just doesn't work that way. I'll offer a different perspective because I kind of have a foot in both both doors because I do right stuff, whether it's like, you know, add stuff for GD or other devices or, you know, I've been hired to, to write a few things personally. Sometimes when I'm writing, especially

with the tools we have available to us nowadays, it's pure option paralysis. And we feel this sometimes when we're working on periphery and it's got such a weight to it that it's like it's almost impossible to start because it means everything in the world and we know how we need to feel about it. So it's got all the pressure. It's not from the fans or from from management or anyone like that. It's just from ourselves because we know how we felt about stuff in the past. We're trying to recreate

that, but reverse engineer it through a writing process, which is very strange, and I'm always kind of shocked to how we get away with it because it never feels like we're going to be able to hit that mark. It's because because we're chasing this feeling and reverse engineering it. When you're offered parameters to work in, I find that kind of refreshing because all of a sudden there's this box you have to operate in, and I've found myself really almost loving it when I'm given like a tempo key

, a vibe, references. This has to become this. By this point. I kind of love that because then it can only be so many things. It becomes this puzzle. You have to solve. It uses an entirely different part of my brain. And also it's not that I'm lazy about it, but there's no pressure because it's not about expressing myself anymore. It's about figuring this puzzle out and about sort of hitting these marks. Right. And ironically, what I've found, because we've ended up using a lot of these good ide

as for periphery songs is because my guard is down. I can be very creative in ways that I'm not expecting because I just kind of don't care. And it's kind of the thing where you need to loosen your grip a little bit and you'll do better. So like I'm a relate everything to driving because why not? But like, you know, if you're if you're driving on the track or in the canyons, a lot of people like white knuckle grip because it's intense. Right. But the key is to actually have a very light grip on

your steering wheel, because then you'll be able to feel everything fingertips. Right. And it's kind of learning how to do that with music where with periphery or anything. That's like Jake and I just felt this for the last week and a half working on the second four, 4 seconds ago album, the first first album, Lose Grip. It's white knuckling the whole time and learning how to like sort of release that grip and let let the ideas flow. And I don't know how to flip that switch in my head, but these

sort of work for hire or these these things are I have to compose things trick me into, into writing like that. And sometimes some pretty cool ideas come out. No, no. If anyone who's listening can use that as an excuse or make themselves an assignment or something like that, but, but I've found that it brought out a completely different side of my writing and just have a completely different relationship with writing because it's just kind of relaxing. It's kind of not stressful and there's no

weight on it in the way that there is. When you have a project that's sort of been established that sort of exists with with these these nebulous boundaries, but their boundaries are just sort of setting for yourself. And it always comes down to two emotions that you feel while you're doing this, When you're doing these work of hire work for hire things, these composer things, you're not feeling emotions and you're sort of just relaxing and enjoying the process. And I really like that. So I appr

eciate both sides of it. Let's say. I know what you mean actually, about the loosening your grip part. The thing that I've noticed though, is that when I do that, I do come up with cool ideas for sure. I know exactly what you're talking about. Some of them do make it into songs, but those ideas that come from those loose kind of sessions are never as good as like the ones that I don't know that are on fire or something, but they are more like more unique ideas in that like, I wouldn't have thoug

ht of them otherwise. I guess if that makes sense. Like the parameter shoes are so foreign to what I normally do that of course I'm going to come up with something different. And that in and of itself is valuable. I think. And it's not going to suck. Like, it's not that it's going to suck. It's just I know, like when I'm feeling the fire, like this shit just comes out better, but it can also be a little samey. So I find that those loose writing sessions definitely help bring out things that I wo

uldn't have done otherwise. And they're not. They're not bad or anything and they can lead to really good ideas. But they're not. But they're don't have like the you know, they don't make you feel like there's blood dripping down your face or anything. I think it'll be different for everybody. Yeah, yeah, totally. But the perspective is just how how to switch things up. I'll give a quick story. I have a buddy named Charles Cornell, who's an incredible pianist, like jazz guy. He's got a YouTube c

hannel that started out kind of as a meme thing, and now it's like sort of reaction break stuff. But the point is, this guy can play absolutely anything is one of the most insane pianists I've ever seen in my life. And he started to recently get into recording production and we were talking about that and he was like, you know, I've started writing using the piano role, and I'm like, That's wild. This guy who could play anything just you hear it, he can play it. And he's like, I love it. It make

s me approach melodies and things in ways I never would because he's like, you know, he's like, I'm in a box. Even that guy so talented as he is, is box into his habits, his tendencies and everything. And this is just now he gets to explore from his perspective, kind of like, well, what would his ear want to hear if his hands are not involved in the equation? You know, just going purely off of the sounds that he wants. And it's just another example of just changing the perspective of how you're

writing and just throwing it on its side. And it's something that would be, you know, on one hand unintuitive on another hand, maybe sacrilegious to let a guy this talent program notes into a piano, you know, but but the result and what the output is what he's loving and I think it makes complete sense and this is all sort of an extension of what I'm talking about. It's just if you ever feeling kind of boxed in because we are all creatures of habit and we all tend to develop these habits, you kn

ow, even if it's down to say, your workflow in a door or something like that, anything that you can do to just kind of flip it on its side and mess with it a little while still remaining productive, could yield some interesting results. Whether or not it's better, whether or not you find out, like in your case, that you need to feel the fire, you need to get the the you know, have the blood dripping down your face. It's going to be very personal. But it's interesting at the very least. I think i

t's because when we write stuff or play stuff, we all know what our bullshit is like because, like, we know what our tendencies are. So we know, like if we're just doing that same fucking thing that we do every time or every other time and we can hear that in our own stuff and but yeah, anything that basically breaks that pattern, I think is a good thing. I, I'm curious, this actually leads to something I wanted to ask you guys about one thing that has like done that for me over the years, like

very reliably is learning stuff like either taking lessons with someone or just learning new things that are outside my wheelhouse. Like, that's a really that's like for me, a sure fire way to get outside of my own bullshit. Basically. Like without fail, whenever I get like a new teacher who's good, like it leads to really, really great results. And Mark, I know you were like I know that you took lessons in preparation for recording, and you told me that like you were seriously trying to up your

game. I know the solo you did for the for the Death song is fucking great, and the solos on the New Periphery are great. And check, I know that you also soloed like crazy on this new record, so I'm just wondering, like, if that works for you guys, Like when you're trying to like, bust outside of, I guess your own bullshit, like what? What helps you guys? Like, is it lessons or I if you're saying you want to up your game, like what's the, what's the method. Yeah, I hear what you guys were just t

alking about actually. Like and this is something I've only realized in the past couple of years that, you know, dramatically shifting the way I do things can have really different and really exciting results. You know, I took a couple of lessons from Mark LETTIERI, Snarky Puppy, just just to get it. I really like I really like some of the things I've heard in his playing and I wish could apply them to my own. Like, I don't know, I li playing is not my, my, my forte. It's not the thing that like

I'm most proud of. It's maybe my greatest weakness. Specifically, there's things that I hear in his playing and some of my other favorite players where they dance in and out of scales and they do things that I would think, you know, initially like, Oh, that doesn't really work. And then they resolve it and it's like, Oh, wow, that really works. That's just like, that's being playful with the scale and I took a couple of lessons basically just to pick his brain on that kind of stuff. And yeah, I

did want to level up, so to speak, and bring bring my A-game. You know, one, one thing that does keep me on my toes with this band and I'm going through it right now actually because I'm learning songs that we have to play in a month for a festival that we're playing in England. And I've been learning riffs that that Jake and Misha have written for a couple of new songs, and it's just like, Holy fuck. Like at first glance it's like, This is crazy. I'm going to be working on this riff for a day.

It rhythmically, there's things rhythmically that Misha Those are things melodically that Jake does where it's like, All right, well, I got to wrap my head around this. And by the time I've learned one of their sections or the song as a whole, I feel like I've grown as a player now and again, I think we may have talked about this on the last podcast we did, but like I feel like that sharpens all of our skills, learning each other's riffs and sort of like identifying how one another things and h

ow we go about writing riffs. Yeah, I mean whether, whether it's taking lessons, learning from others, like all of that stuff. Basically just getting out of my own comfort zone, you know, And I need, I actually need to be better about that these days. But, but yeah, that always kind of stirs the pot for you. Jake So in regards to solos specifically, I usually like try to choose sections that I'm like, Oh, that'll, that'll force me out of my comfort zone. I've never written like for Zagreus, I, w

e were going to put a solo in the section that my solo is in and I could just hear like, Oh, this is so opacity. I could play like, you know, an op ed style solo and you know, so I try to choose things on every album that, that well, that I can kind of like try different things and new things. And thankfully, I'm in a band with two amazing guitar players. So these guys have helped me write my solos. And, you know, it's it's really nice because it kind of takes the pressure off of like, is this s

ick? Am I like, you know, am I not pushing myself hard enough here or whatever? And, you know, what would you play here? Here's what I'm playing, you know, And so there's kind of this back and forth nature that to writing the solos, at least on this record. Maybe like the last couple of records, it's been like that. So it's really nice and it's kind of like I get to push myself, but I also kind of have the sort of stuff that the other guys bring to the writing process with the solo writing proce

ss. I think that in order to push myself, I just need to hang around these guys and actually, like, thought of something funny about the band that it kind of like started a long time ago. And Michelle wrote this song called Zeigler Rocks, and I remember hearing it for the first time and I'm like, Well, we're never going to be able to play it like this is this is going to be one of those things that's going to be like only on an album and we won't play it. And that's, that's that. And then we per

formed it live a couple of times and it's like it showed me like, okay, like, yeah, we can write these crazy songs and it's also possible for us to perform them. And so I always try to keep that in mind. It's like we've, we've done crazy stuff before. We're going to do it again. It doesn't like intimidate me as much anymore because I know that we have, you know, a bunch of albums of us, kind of like really pushing ourselves to the extent of our playing ability. And then we show up at practice an

d we're able to do it. So there's a lot of comfort in that. And yeah, it's I should take less. I should do what Mark did and like approach, you know, one of my favorite players and see if they want to like jam on Zoom. And I really I love that idea. But I'm also like incredibly intimidated about that idea because I don't want people to know where I am on guitar. Like Mark Animation. Doesn't know I took half a freaking bin of beta blocker and I'm just kidding. I didn't. I was nervous too, man. I

was nervous too, because, yeah, I feel like, Oh God, this guy's going to see how much of a hack I am. And that's why I didn't play. I just I kept it. Mike Only I put a guitar on my lap to make it look like I played, but I didn't actually play for him. So, yeah, that was my workaround. All right, All right. Yeah, maybe I could do that. There are ways for you to play guitar on Zoom, but yeah, that's, you know, it is definitely like in my mind to kind of reach out to to players I know who are sick

and can kind of get me out of that box or, you know, show me some new things or even just kind of bring me back to basics because, you know, that's another it's like sometimes I listen to the stuff that I wrote ten years ago and I think about the player that I am now, and I'm like, How did I do that? Like, I don't remember how I did that. I don't know, like, what was I thinking? And I feel like in some ways, like I haven't progressed or gotten any better. But like the proof in, like the the reco

rdings, like, I know. You're still just you. Yeah, I objectively have progressed, but it's like when you're when you kind go back to, like, learn old songs, it's, you know, it can mess with your mind a little bit because it's like, damn, like, I don't remember how I did that. But anyway, so I'm rambling about it now. But, you know, that's just a little, little insight. Well, I think that what you just said actually is very, very appropriate because even if you do have the proof that you've gotte

n better, I mean, that's what records are and that's what shows are. It's like there's your proof, like still, I've noticed that I still feel exactly the same way as I did before. Like nothing changes about the way I feel about myself or my abilities. So the way I feel and my and the proof of things are totally different. So like, no matter how good things are, I still feel like I completely suck or nothing good has happened. And it's it's interesting, but I definitely keep track of the proof be

cause it helps helps me like get outside of my own head, I guess. But yeah, I think we feel like ourselves no matter what, regardless of the outside world usually. I'm curious though, like when it comes to writing solos, do you come up with a basic idea on your own, then run it by the other dudes? Or like, what could be better? Or How does that go? Yeah, yeah. Jake helped me a lot on the solos that I contribute on the last record. Like I would. Yeah I would just send them like mocked up versions

that I just jammed on here at home and I spent longer than I care to admit on them. And then I would bring them to the recording sessions. And then, yeah, I mean, there was a solo in a really fucked up tuning that, that, that Jake helps me with in that song Wax Wings. And then, and then Misha really helped me with the song Everything Is Fine, I think. Is that the first record we've done? Like that? I think with at least just with my leads. But that may have been the first time I've sort of left

, left the door, you know, swinging wide open for them to help me. But yeah, it was awesome. It really, really helped having their opinions on it and just getting outside of my own head and realizing, Oh damn. Okay, that's cool. I would have never thought of that. Yeah, it's very helpful. So something I want to point out and like I'm incredibly grateful for is Misha has this ability to know immediately what's in scale and what's at a scale. And like, it makes like it makes working on this stuff

go so fast because sometimes, like, I'll hear something and in my head I'm just like, Yeah, it sounds good. And then like amazing notes or not that you're not in the right scale. And so I kind of do it the same way that Mark does it, where like I'll kind of frame out my ideas and then show the guys. And then when we go to record the actual solos and that's when we take like a real, like hard look at what's, what's, what's on recording and kind of structure and, and make it the best it can be. An

d you know, the guys have been integral to that for me anyways, at least on this last record. The dry cool Grass solo needed a lot of work. The Zagreus solo's like more or less like how I originally intended it, but it was nice about like what I learned about the dry, cool guitar solo is just kind of, I think the biggest take away for that for for me was the structuring and like how things kind of ascend and descend and then resolve in a certain things and kind of hit these very specific accents

that I really wasn't paying attention to in my original demo for the solo and I think it came out better because I had these guys input on this stuff. So yeah, I really like working that way. I think it's it makes the it makes it process that would probably take much, much longer to get to the same place, you know, a lot shorter. Or this is what people usually hire producers for. You guys just have that in-house basically. But that's kind of what a producer should do, is like take the ideas and

help flesh them out or help, you know, fix wrong notes and help like basically discover the potential and an idea. But have you guys ever worked with an external producer feel like you have it right or have you you have. Have. Off the record? We have. Yeah. His name rhymes with Lake Lubin. Amazing. That sounds like a strip club near the airport. No, it didn't take. It wasn't for us. It doesn't seem like you need it. Well, that's the thing, because I'm produce bands before, so I can't disparage

producers. I think it's a contextual thing. Very simply. There's a lot of bands that have a ton of talent and a lot of ideas, but can't quite get to the finish line, can't quite get the vision together. And in those cases, a producer and more importantly, the right producer, an appropriate producer, can be that that perfect element that you need to get something great together. But if you're in the kind of band where you have a very strong vision for everything musically and you understand what

you want, whether it's one guy or a bunch guys or the whole band, then it can be very difficult because then you effectively are just butting heads. We entertained it at one point in time because. We've always self-produced. Our manager at the time, who's no longer our manager, suggested that that may be we explore that and we don't know everything. So we're like, All right, yeah, maybe, maybe we should. And we spoke to a producer who will remain unnamed and they said that they said everything t

hat we wanted to hear. It seemed like it would be a good fit. I was I was hearing a lot of the right talk, but the experience showed us that that wasn't the right the right move for us. And we didn't we didn't end up going down that route. There are there is like a de facto producer role that Meesha plays in our writing process like. That, it sounds like. Yeah, and this sort of going off of the solo discussion, you know, Misha is a professed snob of solos, he tells us that I'm not taking the wor

ds out of his mouth. I am. I am. I'm very busy. Yeah. So and he's he's always questioning, like, what's the point of this? Why is why is that part there? Maybe we can like, let's add some intention behind that. What is this part trying to say? And those are questions I feel like are very important. If if you are in your own head or if you need a little bit more guidance on something. And I think that's what a lot of this is like in Periphery. We're kind of just throwing ideas at the wall and see

ing if they stick. And with that, it's just it's really essential to have one person maybe above the others, even though we're all pretty opinionated and we all kind of know what we want out of this band, and we all have a very exact vision. But Misha takes that producer role in our sessions and and yeah, whether it's solos, whether it's vocal sessions, whether it's just getting initial riff ideas out, I don't think we've ever really needed an external producer. I think, you know, the time that

we did was kind of just, well, let's see what happens. And we didn't really like what happened. In fact, we realized it was kind of redundant and it almost took for granted the gift that we have, you know, with the personnel and, you know, in our band. We also got feedback, friends that we trust. Then they were like, This is worse than your demo. And it's like, All right, well, because, you know, you're kind of in the moment. Studio magic is a real thing. We were kind of hyped and then all of ou

r friends were like, You know, your version is better. And we're like, okay, well, we had that inkling. But now that people who have no skin in the game are telling us that too, yeah, it's pretty clear. And in hindsight it's like very glad that we didn't go down that path. Think very, very proud of the record that we put together. And I think it to it needed to have our vision. We had a very specific vision for it. So this is the lesson I learned is if you have that specific vision, it's not to

say don't work with the producer, but you may have a hard time unless you have a producer who genuinely understands that vision and is bringing something to the table, they'll probably just get in the way and you might be better off just doing it yourself. And I've seen examples of. This or bring them in for the thing that you want help with. Absolutely. Like I bring in a producer for vocals. Sure. Because I just suck on vocals like I don't like I know what vocals are good and what vocals are ba

d, but I can't like, I don't have it in me to, like, help vocalists get there. And I know that about myself when it comes to everything else. I can do the job, but like I can't do it for vocals. So that's crucial to me is like, have a great vocal producer involved, don't need one for anything else. I think it's just important that you guys are saying to like, take stock of like what gifts the personnel have. Like what? What's everyone already coming to the table with? And don't just get redundan

t people involved because somebody said you have to or you should. I think that anyone you bring in there should be a reason for it. Otherwise you are just kind of wasting money and time and not necessarily getting anything good for it. But it is good to test it though, because how would you know? Like, how would you know without testing it? I think that's what I was going to say is, you know, at that point it was like, all right, well, this is this is a way to shake things up. Could be fun. I w

as actually pretty excited about it at the outset because I was like, this is cool because I had fallen into that role. It was actually kind of exciting to be like, and I remember really embracing it, being like, All right, I'm just a guitarist. I'll just do whatever the producer says, You know? That was kind of a nice, dynamic, way less stressful, and it was fun. But ultimately I. Thought. Yeah, right. But but ultimately, if the output isn't better, then there's no point in doing that. And that

's sort of what we learned. But we would never have learned that had we not tried. So, you know, it's something that if there's an easy way or fairly inexpensive way to test out and you're considering something like that could be interesting. Or as you said, if you're like, oh, well, you know, 80% of this I'm comfortable with, but that last 20%, whether it's vocals or whatever, that I don't feel comfortable. And you could always bring in someone for, you know, in our case, we're very lucky to ha

ve Spencer be so, so talented at vocal production. You know, he's very generous. He lets like, like the entire band is involved with the vocals as much as they want to be. You know, we'll tweak lyrics, we'll we'll tweak, we'll rewrite entire courses or sections, you know. And he's extremely easy to work with. I think in hindsight I've realized that not every vocalist is initially that easy, but it makes it makes it a fairly painless process because it's just an open forum, you know? But he is st

ill the one, like heading up that process sort of in the way that I would head up the the instrumental side. That is very helpful. Most vocalists are not like that. That's Spencer. We got spoiled with Spencer a little bit, I realize. And because he's been basically our singer for the for the integrity of our career, like, like actual career we don't know any different but he's very easy, is extremely easygoing, very easy to work with and live with on tour. He doesn't have that lead singer ego or

anything like that. And and you kind of forget that that's the exception, not the rule. It's his. So we're very, very, very spoiled with him. We're very spoiled. And we definitely appreciate that. You know. He's got no ego. He's got negative ego. He should have more ego. I think he's entitled. Well, I was thinking about this. I was like, you know, he's such a people pleaser that that's why he never pushed back against the juggernaut idea because I think even though in his heart of hearts, he wa

s like, I don't know. He's like, well, the guys want it. Let's let's just try it out. And like, yeah, if anything, he should have maybe like push back a bit more. But I think we've talked to him about that. It's like, dude, like, yeah, you don't need to always please everybody. But he's like, that is his personality is a people pleaser. Like he wants everyone to be happy. He wants everyone to get along. I don't think there's a person on the planet who dislikes him or that he dislikes, you know,

it's like he's like one of those. He's just a good vibes. Human being, you know? Do you guys remember that Axl Rose went on 2 hours late in, like Toronto or something because he was watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. We need. To get. Pressure on some of that. Shit. And he's like, Just needs to take a. Tiny bite off of. That ego. Yeah, just take a hit. Yeah. I didn't hear about that one, but that's amazing. That's so great. I want. To. I really want that to be true. Yeah. Even if it's not, we

all believe it or want it to be true. I did hear about once that he was supposed to be on stage and he was in at a nightclub in a different city. And like, I think that that was one of the times that a riot started where no one knew where he was like. Oh, my. Dad was there, everyone's there, except where's Axl? That could be totally inventing this. But apparently he was like at a club in New York, just hanging out. Having nightmares that are like that. Yeah, like we're. Like a nightmare. I'm li

ke, I'm. The guys are playing and I'm 2 hours away, and the show starts in an hour, and then I get there and no one says anything to me. My rig is like, in Explicable. He like unplugged, like everything. And they're playing music that I never practice. They're like, Why are we playing this? We haven't played a song in like 13 years. What we all. We all have is this nightmare. Yeah, we all have like very. Different from the Axl Rose thing, but that reminded me of that. So I wanted to mention. Tha

t nightmare sounds terrible. It sucks. I have them pretty often too, and I think I kind of figured it out like what it is. And this might sound a little mushy. Like, I think I, like, care about what the guys. Thanks so much. I'm so stressed out, like in my subconscious that like, I'm doing the best that I can for them, that it kind of like manifests itself in my dreams or I'm like, you know, it's it's the the mental manifestation of my respect for these guys cause I don't want to let them down.

Yeah, I feel that. I feel that, Yeah. I feel like I'm the one who brings the least to the table. And I'm like, Oh, and of course, like, it's for my dream. It's always like sitting and like Jake's coming to me with, like, my in-ear pack and my is like, Dude, where are you? We're about to line check. And I'm like, line check. And I just have a guitar in my hand. And I'm like, Well, what's the setlist? And it's like 18 songs. I was like, Dude, I don't remember any of these. And I'm like, desperatel

y trying to. He's like, No, no, no, no. We got to go now now. We're about to line up. Hey, dude, where have you been? You know? And I'm just like, when I wake up, I'm just like, Oh my God, Oh, my God. Dude, I. Have that same exact dream. It's always the songs I don't know how to play. Like, well, play it like an 11 year old song that I've never played before. It's like we're playing that now. We're opening with. Yeah, that's terrifying. Oh, it's. Yeah, it's. It's the worst. So worst stress, drea

ms. I feel like they're universal because I, I got this recurring one that during the hiatus that suddenly the lineup was back together and we're playing stuff without a rehearsal. Like it's like nine years later and haven't played this at all, and now it's happening in 3 minutes. It's just fucking terrifying. It's the festival show or something. It's the old elementary school presentation with no pants on. Like, you know, like that. That old cliche badgering that. I'd rather do that in a heartb

eat. Yeah. I'll take my pants off. Give that presentation. Yeah. I don't know about you guys, but, like, when I have dreams like that and I wake up, yes, I am relieved. But there's kind of, like this lingering, sort of, like darkness, like, make me feel like crap for, like. You know, a restaurant. Like, I would be my best self that day. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. So not only do I have to experience the trauma in the dream when I wake up, I'm like, God damn. Like, that could happen if I'm not careful

. Do you guys ever have one? Like, I had this one a couple of times where you're doing, like a solo trade off on, like a G3 tour where it's like Nuno and then there's Eric Johnson and like, Oh man. And the guitar just it's your turn. And you're like. Aha, I. Don't have that dream because I would never be in that situation. That would never happen. Yeah, me neither. But it just sounds like the scariest thing ever. Yeah, that would be the worst part. Didn't you just do that with plenty? I did. Yea

h. Yeah, you did it with plenty. It was the worst day. I was scared for you when I saw you. Like, I was just like. Oh, well, like, why would he do this to us? I was. I was. See, I saw those photos, too, and was like, Man, that's some balls. Some fucking balls right there. I told him no. I told him no. And the answer was no for weeks. And then you know who it was? It was Vanessa. She. She was like, You should do it. I'm like, Yeah, I just don't do that. Well, like, I'm not good at that. And she w

as like, Yeah, but why don't you just practice? You play guitar, right? Like, just. Practice. Like, why don't you just be like. This practice, right? She's not wrong. Yeah. Oh, that's very, very logical. Exactly what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't disagree with her. And this was the day before in the morning, so I was like, well, she was like, What do you do in a day? I was like. Oh, playing Elden Ring. Yeah, playing and. Practicing. Elden Ring You might as well. And so I spent like the

whole day basically like practicing, and yeah, I just, I knew what key the section was in. I just, I got a couple moves down like positions on the fretboard and it was a mess. I was so nervous, like it was the most nervous I'd ever been like before playing, maybe ever like before my first show with Periphery, because at least before that first show with Periphery, I knew how to play the songs. You know, all I had to do was like, go up there and play the note movements that I already knew how to

do and then stand there like a scarecrow. But with this it was I was so terrified. I didn't eat all day, like I was like I was all grumpy and, and yeah. Vanessa really like she pushed me to start to start like, just get, get off, get off your chair and just start, like, thinking about it. It's basically like, it'll be cool, right? Like, if you do well, it'll be cool What's the worst that could happen? Like. I can think of a couple of things. Yeah, I think that's what I think that. Yeah, Yeah. I

could be on YouTube. I could. I could make Nick Jonas sound like freaking Bach. I know. I know how you feel, though, because I'm on a strength Faith play through and I'm fighting the Virgin abductors because I got captured at the bottom of Lucario and I'm trying to fight through because I want to try to get the blast from this blade as early as possible. Like before you actually get to land right. And because you have to do the third contract there and I don't want to do that. So in the skip thr

ough that and it was pretty nerve wracking because I think I'm under leveled for that, but I think I got it. I'll just practice all day and that's. Sarah Does Sarah just want you to just practice? You play Elden Ring. You just practice. Exactly. Worst case, you can't, you can't get over the hump. I mean, just grind, pick up your bones and keep grinding. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So how did it go? I still haven't been in that. Oh, you're talking about right? I'm talkin

g about both. I'm so glad when she plays. Oh. That's Marks and Spencer, both of them. Jigs playing Elden ring now. Yeah. I forced him to buy a steam deck. Then I forced him to buy Elden ring. Yeah. Both really good decisions, by the way. Yeah. I mean, my life decisions. I got this shit like it's never more than, like, two feet from me at any given moment. That's terrifying. It's great because you could just press button and be playing whatever gaming or just playing. That's really terrifying bec

ause I'm bad with video games. Like, I don't let myself play them because it it's one of those things where it starts, okay, where it's like, Oh, I'll just play it for 30 minutes at night and then it's like 2 hours. Then like it's during the day. And I'm thinking about it and then it's like I go to bed thinking about it, I dream about it, I wake up thinking about it, and I can no longer focus on should I actually have to do because then like a week will go by where like I didn't do anything but

play the fucking game. And it's I just don't let myself do it. It's terrifying because I get so into it. Dude, I'm not saying I'm the same exact way. In fact, like when Misha said I could join for free, I basically like, stop playing video games for a while until. 711 and you had to delete your account. Yeah. Yeah. No more MMO. Exactly. No, no. RPG is nothing because I'm exactly like you. As soon as actually as soon as that first record deal came into the picture, like this might be real, I actu

ally quit playing video games. That was when I've tried a few times afterwards and been like, Nope, I shouldn't do this because if I do this like I'm going to fuck something up. I'll tell you a little story. Yeah. So Towson from Animals as leaders has been a very good friend of mine for God almost 20 years now. And, you know, we lived in D.C. and we would trade links and gear. We'd nerd out over everything. And it's 20 years later and he's Towson, obviously, and I'm me and he's Towson of us beca

use he doesn't play video games and I'm me because I do. So if you don't play video games, you can be Towson and bossy. And that's the lesson. That's what it takes. You have cut that out and then you can actually be good at guitar. Did did he ever play? I don't think so. I like it's one of those things I always noticed about him. I was like, all those hours I was playing video games, he was practicing guitar. I wonder if that makes a difference somewhere. Turns out it turns out it does. It turns

out it does make a difference. Someone needs to like, walk by his bank on tour and just slip him like a Nintendo switch to. Throw it in there and watch his career implode. Yeah. This ends because I do think it's the same part of your brain. It's the exact same part of your brain. That's like, I got to practice this. This lick. Yes, I got to be this boss. Oh, well, let me try and get the next session. Let me try and learn this. I'm trying to. Say it's exactly the. Same reward processing and all

that. Like, it's like it. It's why guitar is addicting when you get into it. It's why video games are addicting. Or I think generally speaking, US nerds will tend to get into whatever we get into pretty, pretty hard. I bought one of those, actually. My one break from the pattern was I got one of those, the fucker they call one of those VR headsets that it makes and oh yeah the can't get into. I had to. Yeah of course that's right. And I put it down like there was a month there in 2021 or 22 wher

e like it started just like that. And at first what was good about it was I got motion sickness so I couldn't play that much. But then I got over the motion sickness. And as soon as that happened, then it was exactly what I just said. It was like first it was 30 minutes, it was an hour, then it was 2 hours. Then I'm playing in the morning to then I'm playing in the, you know, on breaks from meetings. I'm playing it. And then it's like, Well, I just played this shit day long and then I, I just, I

canceled the subscription and just put it aside and it's like. They invented a drug, you know, like video game developers. Actually, they've invented a drug, and it's called vampire survivors. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's easy to look at Iraqis eyes here as that vampire survivors. Look. I played all morning. You played Tuesday. Oh, Jake, are you hooked? Yeah, I gave Jay. I let Jake playing tester. Yeah, like chained to a radiator. Fucking her. Yeah, it's. It's that. That's a drug that wasn't ba

d. So that game was developed by. What did he. What did he. Do? He developed slot machines. Yeah. And he just knows how the brain works and like how to inject dopamine. So even the sounds that like the gems make when you collect them was like, deliberate it over, like, and the look and everything. It's all psychologically designed to be the most addicting thing in the world. And my, my basic bitch gamer brain falls for it completely. Like I adore that game. Yeah. Yeah. Was it what platforms it o

n anything. I think you can. I shouldn't say this, but you can play it on your phone for free. Oh yeah. But we're playing it on. We're playing it on on Steam like because it's a, it's a great, great thing. It's incredible. Dude, you had, you have that. You have to try it. You know, he's got a career. He's got to get like. Several he's got like several careers and he's got, he's doing with his life. So here's the messed up part about this game is that most of the levels, it takes 30 minutes and i

t doesn't seem like when you're playing it like 25 minutes goes by in what seems like a flash. And so like when you start getting the hang of the game and you can make it to the 30 minute mark, you'll stack like four of those. Oh yeah. And then and then like 2 hours is gone in a flash and that's what happened this morning. True story. I think I told you this story, Jake. But Chris, my buddy Chris, who I do reverse gear with, we were actually built this my car. We're actually going to go film som

ething on my buddy Will's house And we were we had to leave and I was in the middle of a game and he's like, Come on, man, because he wasn't playing. And he thinks it's stupid. And like, he's like, Come on, we got to go. I was like, Oh, just let me die any second now. So just let me, let me die. And 45 minutes later we left and then I had a confession to make. I was like, Look, I'm not proud to say this. I don't usually do this, but I died and I started a new game. And and I. Didn't tell you. An

d he was so fucking mad. He was like, I knew it. I fucking knew it was going to take that long for. You to die. And I was like, No, I lied. I absolutely 100% lied to you and started a new game. I don't do that, by the way. That's not it. I was ashamed. That's why I admitted it immediately after doing it. Of But like that game. That game brought out the worst in me, man. I love it. Yeah, you got it. You got a taste of, like, what it's like to be trapped in a casino. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, give me more.

And now I'm playing all the offshoots. I'm playing bro Tato and 20 minutes till dawn, which I think 20 minutes till dawn is fucking good. So I'm just blowing my mind. Right. Play them. You want like, five bucks? You want that? That one's great. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. My mind is really honed. Anytime I talk to musicians, I know that like I that I admire or respect. And they play video games, especially the ones like, have had some success in this world. Like how, how do you like, how do you do

this? Like, how to? Because I wouldn't be able to do serious ends. Like, I want to know this. Seriously, it's. Like action. It's it's kind of a way to genuinely have downtime. I I'm you and everyone else and I know all of us. We get stuck on ideas. We get stuck and our options are to force through or just, you know, but you're not even feeling creative, you're feeling kind of deflated and whatever. And probably the best thing you could do is take a break. Yeah, let's say you go for a walk outsi

de or let's say you just sit on the couch or go on your on social media. It's still kind of in the back of your head, right? It's very hard to actually not stress out about it because it's a thing that's very important to you. In the case of the guys being, I'm like, Man, we have limited amounts of time. Like, are we running out of time? Are we going to get this done before they leave? And it just all this pressure to get this thing done said to go and do something that genuinely can just suck y

ou out of your world for a second and bring it to something else. And it's not in the back of your mind because of course it's not you're obsessed with whatever whatever it is you're watching. It doesn't have to be video games. Maybe it's a show you really like. Maybe walking outside does that for you. I'll go for a drive. You know, there's any number of things that you may get into. But the important thing is that it does shut off that part of your brain that's worrying about that. And then whe

n you get back to it, you can you can do it with a clear mind because you haven't been thinking about it for the last, you know, 30 minutes or in our case, 7 hours. But, you know, it's it's it's important if you're doing it with your friends as well. We play video games either next to each other or with each other or whatever. It kind of becomes like a bit of a bonding thing. But it's a genuine thing and it's not you're not worried about music, you're not even thinking about it. So that I think,

is a really helpful thing and surprise you come back to it and now you can kind of get some ideas and maybe even what you decide is like, you know, there's nothing here. Let's work on something else. But now at least you feel motivated to do so. And now you have the presence of mind to know, like, Hey, like, this is a bit of a dead end. Let's move on and not bash your head into the wall. So I would say that for us, that's that's kind of the serious answer, I think, why, you know, we gravitate t

owards video games and that tends to work. But whatever it is that would do that, maybe we'll go for a walk, maybe we'll go get something to eat, maybe we'll go for a drive, whatever it is. That's really the goal is to just get your head out of it where it's not just in the back of your mind the whole time. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. One thing I wanted to mention about video games in general is that there's a musical component to it as well. And I think that like some of these these compos

ers for these four for games that I play are just on this level where I can play a video game for hours and enjoy the music so much that when I'm done playing, I'm like inspired to write music because of what I was just listening to all this time and it's like it's it's starting to speak to the power of like who they're hiring for these projects because they're really getting these people who are, you know, creating in incredibly moving and complex music. And that informs what I do with the band

or with solo stuff. I think the other guys feel the same. There's kind of like a symbiotic sort of relationship between the amount of gaming that we do, the types of games that we play, and then the music that we write for Periphery. So I just wanted to mention that like how it might, you know, circle back to what we do musically because it's not just this like sort of like time sink or place that we deposit hours to kind of take our mind off of stuff. Like there is a lot of musically stimulati

ng stuff going on there, too. That, you know what? Actually, I feel like video games, any apps have been, at least for me, have been that because I remember even back in the day with my niece liking the music. So much in games like Castlevania or something to where I would just play it over and over and over and over again just to hear the music and then that kind of helped inform things I would do later. Yeah, I actually know what you're saying in video game music now has gotten really, really

insane. The good. It's always been good, but it's gotten like insanely good. I think there's two dynamics happening there that I think are very interesting to look at. One is when you're playing video game, especially something that's like an RPG or whatever, you be hearing that music a lot, right? So it has to be good. It has to be something that you can hear over and over, and it doesn't make you sick of it, but you're also progressing through this game. I mean, a lot of emotions. We have a lo

t of nostalgia for those moments. So listening to that can bring back those feelings. Right. And and it can make you like you're playing that game. So it's more than just the music itself, right? It brings you to that time and place. But also a lot of these composers are insanely, but video games are a fairly new medium and really look down upon it's not, you know, there's there's debates whether video games are art or not. You know, which I think is absurd. But like the very fact that there are

sort of puts these these composers in a different class, you're oh, you're not a film composer or video game composer. Now, this is changing because video games are such a massive industry bigger than the the film industry. So now, now there is a lucrative field and been around long enough. And it's you know, our generation is sort of raised on video games and they're making a lot of the decisions and influencing a lot of people. So it's changing but especially in the early stages and like, lik

e grown up, like you're kind of look down or you weren't considered in the same realm as like a quote unquote real composer. Right? But these guys were massively talented in some cases, I think maybe even more talented than some of the most famous composers, certainly on the same level. So you're hearing some of the highest quality music and you're hearing it in a context where maybe it's the wrong term, It's sort of getting bashed into your head, like taking a case like the Final Fantasy series

. You know, you're hearing these songs over and over and over hours and hours, and it just becomes part of your experience, maybe part of your childhood, like in my case. And, and they really get ingrained like deeply in your soul and they're also beautiful pieces of music. So I think there's so many little things happening there that make that relatable and that then go on to influence you. So in short, all I'm trying to say is, Thanks, Nobuo. You know, one thing I've noticed, or just this like

theory I have now, and I know it's not this is not like based on any sort of fact. It's just this feeling. Well, I feel like there's talent in every field of music, but there time periods where the talent will congregate. I guess, in certain areas. So for a long time, the big compositional talent was in straight up orchestral music and it shifted to movies and. All the people who would have been writing for an orchestra were no longer just writing for an orchestra. They were writing for movies.

And then if you hear music that was written just for orchestra during that same time period where I guess the talent shifted to movies, the straight up orchestral music from that time period sucked like it's somewhere around like 1950 and on. But especially as you get later on in time, like just pure orchestral just got worse and worse and worse as soundtracks got better and better. And it's just seems to me like, yeah, those same people who would have been writing, would have been composing fo

r orchestra are now being stimulated by this much better opportunity where they don't just have to write for orchestra, they can throw guitars in there like and there are synth in there, like it's more than just straight up orchestra. And I feel like you still have some geniuses in movies, of course, but I feel like it's happened again too, where now, like the cutting edge for the talent is in video games and people are just starting to come around to it and realize it. But seems like you've rea

lized it for a while. But like it seems to me like that's where the talent is now. I mean, obviously there's still great people in movies and there's great people, the orchestral world, but like just seems like the talent is congregating in video games. It's interesting. I've never I've never thought of it that way, and I never really notice. But that's a that's a very, very good point. I would say I would add to that that also one of the big things that happened was, you know, now it's not that

probably being an orchestral composer or a classical composer, there's probably no higher barrier to entry historically. But now with virtual libraries, you know, I wouldn't say anyone could do it because they're kind of cheap. They're not cheap, but but it is more accessible than ever, and it is relatively inexpensive, you know, to hire an orchestra for a day, would it cost you like 30 or 40 grand? But now you could spend like, you know, spend 500 bucks or 600 bucks like a Albion or Yeager or

nuclear or something like that. And you can have everything you need to do to at least get started with it and get the ideas out. You don't need to be able to play of these instruments. In my case, you don't even need to be able to read music or no music theory. You can just go. You could just experiment. And this allows more talent to get in because you're not limited by those, you know, sometimes esoteric barriers to entry. Yeah, I mean, you still got to be good, though. Yeah, but, but, but th

at's, that's the thing. Know there was this big debate, you know, I remember when, when EDM artists came up and like, you know, they had Ableton on their laptop and they're making these hits. I'm like, well, that's not you know, they can't even play an instruments. Who cares? Like you're now that the barrier to entry is lower, you're getting the pure talent that's not limited by the fact that maybe they just never had the opportunity to, you know, or the means to learn an instrument. But the cre

ativity is what matters and you're getting that. So yeah, that's what will shine through. Just like anything else. If you have the tool can have a really nice guitar, really nice amp, doesn't mean that you're going to sound good. You have to put in the time, you have to have the talent or develop the talent. So it's just like anything else. But it gives access to people that would never have had access that you never would have discovered had it been the 1950s, because they would have had to go

to school for it and know that that's what they wanted to. And they have no to necessarily even dip their toes into it to find out that they like it, you know? But, you know, this idea that people back in the day were really good at lots of things isn't 100% accurate. Like they had to be better at certain things because there wasn't technology for it. But there's a reason for why a composer and an orchestrator were two completely different things. Sometimes a composer would learn to orchestrate,

but more often than not, a composer would work with an orchestrator and composer would just write their shit on a piano and they won't be good at playing it. They would just be good, are writing it on a piano, and then the orchestrator would then take it and orchestrate it. But they could write like, say, like a piano concerto or something that they could never in a million years play. They could just write it. And, and they were and it was perfectly fine. They were respected for their ability

to compose things not, for their ability to play or ability to arrange. And I feel like now when you get that same sort of thing where someone doesn't have music theory, knowledge or isn't like a great player, but they're a great writer or they're a great player but not a great writer, you know, whatever. They're great at something but not great at others. A lot of people will get negative on them, but I feel like that's always been the case. We just don't have. We just weren't there in the, you

know, in the 1800s. I also think that now you have the tools, so you get people that can do everything or that will be encouraged to do everything. So they'll occupy several roles. And, you know, people compare, whereas back in the day it was all more accepted that this would be separate roles because it would be kind of unreasonable. It'd be whether it's limitations of technology or whatever it would be, it would be sort unreasonable to expect that if you could do both, great, but it's not exp

ected. These are separate jobs, as you as you said. But still, though, I still think now a days, even if you're really great at one thing and not great at others like you can, that I know a lot of people like that. I guess they get shit for it. But like at the end of the day, I guess in the pro world I know lots of people who are like that, who they have that thing that they shine for, and then a bunch of other things that they're okay at, but they will work with other people who make up for tha

t ability. Like a very common, for instance, is producers who are not great with editing, who will hire editors to. And yeah, part of it's because they're sick of editing drums. Another part of it too, is because a lot of them are hyper creative people who whose A.D.D. gets goes out of control when it's time to edit metal drums and they'll do not so good of a job or not so good of a job on editing, on like tuning vocals or whatever. So they'll hire that out to somebody who. Has brain does work t

hat way, and it's like, it's a good thing. It's it's a really good thing. I think yeah, if you can do it all or you can do more than one thing, that's too. But I still don't think it's a required as long as you are awesome at the thing you're putting yourself out there for basically, if that makes sense. Absolutely. But I'm sorry. I know. I realize I'm speaking to you who does multiple things. Well. I don't, though. I don't. I was saying, like, everything that you're saying makes me feel like th

is is why I'm in a band, you know, because I'm not good at I'm not good at a lot of stuff. And I feel like these guys, like we all sort of divide and conquer and we're all good at different things. And all together we can be more than the sum of our parts. But you know, it's a reason why, like it took me 15 years to do a solo album and I'd much rather do these collaborative projects instead because I feel that. I was actually just thinking about this exact thing. Like I just had the the word sol

o artist on the tip of my tongue because I, I went and saw Emperor the other night and spent some time with Sean, who's like God to me, basically. But we had a conversation about why he is a solo artist primarily, and it's because he does hire people to do things, but he kind of is good at lots of different things and kind of has the complete, almost like the complete vision on his own, which I think it seems to me like got some version of that going on. So it's just it's interesting to hear bec

ause I don't know, what I see is someone that does a bunch of different things and they're all sick, so I'm talking about you. So then I hear Ishan saying that sort of thing, like where he's got his vision and. He's very, very true to his vision. I don't really see that much of a difference besides the parameters of the projects. So I still see collaboration happening. I still see vision happening. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think you're hard on yourself, basically. I don't think I'm be

ing hard on myself. I think I'm I'm sort of being factual, like I'm much more enjoy writing with the guys and I and then it sort of reveals a lot of the the holes in like my abilities, like, for example, it's why gnarly mixes, you know, I can mix, but I don't think I'm very good at it, you know, and all these fucking incredible edit So it's partnering with people that can get you to your, your end goal. And so same thing with the companies and ventures I'm involved with. Maybe from the outside i

t looks like I do all this stuff, but I'm just partnering with that I work with very well and that I think can elevate all these projects to two levels that I would never be able to get on my own. Like not even close. I like my solo album. I'm pretty proud of it. But like it's it's no, I don't feel anywhere near as proud of as I do of like, the stuff that I do with with the guys with Periphery or anything like that, you know, And even the side projects, you're like, I don't know. For me, I just

thrive on the collaboration. You see this thing come to life that's like not quite yours, not quite theirs. And it sort of takes on a life of its own. And and then that energy I find very exciting. And that's something that I don't think there's any project that you that's sort of a solo venture, you know, because because I recognize I'm not good at everything. I'm not I'm not good at most things, But that's not me being humble or anything or me being hard on myself. It's just kind of taking an

objective look at the situation. And and I think that's why these projects are as successful as they are or why they work at all is because if I was doing it all by myself, it'd be kind of lopsided, But we can sort of fill it out with with, you know, what people need to do. And as these guys can attest to, there's much more to being in a band than just writing music. So everyone's kind of doing their part, whether it's in the parts that people see or the parts that they don't. Actually relate to

that a lot because I kind of feel the same way where anything I do with other people's better than what I would do on my own. So I actually do look at people like Ishaan or Devin and I'm like, How the fuck. Some some people are geniuses, man. Some people, I guess I'm just on a different level, you know? And some people like, you know, I feel the exact same way as you guys are saying, like I get like a world of fulfillment and satisfaction out of collaboration. Like, I don't know if I would do t

his for a living. I couldn't collaborate with these guys or collaborate in general. Like, I get so much inspiration. That's where everything comes from, is that it's the collaboration side of it. And I look at people like Devin Townsend or Verizon or whoever, like as just being cut from a different cloth. And it almost seems like they get that specific type of satisfaction and fulfillment from doing things the exact opposite where, you know, if Devin Townsend were in a band, I think, you know, w

hen he talks about strapping Young Lad and stuff in interviews, you sort of hear his sort of especially later in their career, his his resentment for the band dynamic when at the end of the day was kind of just doing everything. And he sounds kind of said the same about Emperor, too. Like their last their final record was him writing everything. And it was. You can hear. It, you can hear it, right. It was very proggy and very over the top. And you can almost you know, I think he actually said as

much as is like, Why, why, why, why is this an Emperor album? You know, this is this is all my music. And I even performed most of it except for the drums. And it sounds like for those kinds of people, they get that of inspiration from just being in a room alone or designating out, you know, tasks that they don't feel comfortable doing, you know, hiring somebody to do to mix it, hiring somebody to be a session drummer. But yeah, I, I come from a completely different place, the way I view music

and the way I view writing music, to me, there's nothing without collaboration. And I've gotten the question sometimes like, Would you ever do what Jake and Misha do with, you know, regarding a solo record? And I don't want to say that I'm like, incapable of doing it. I, I think that I could it would just require a big adjustment the way I, the way my relationship with music is because the way as though it's been, you know, at least since I was a teenager when I was a teen, it's like a, you know

, teenager, my twenties and early twenties. I would be the main writer in a band and I remember not liking it as much. I remember really resenting it and finding everything very predictable and not really finding ways to challenge myself. But the minute I started working with the guys in periphery, I was like, Oh Wow. Like, I can just I can just exist and be part of this, this commune, this, this, this, you know, creative circle we have and, and, and my relationship with music changed. And I don

't know if I could ever view it differently. I get it. I can say that, like with writing, there's something that happens in collaboration, like where someone, someone else's idea and tell me of you guys are like this, but there's I feel like there's only so far I can get a song on my own, even though I end up doing the lion's share of the writing. It's not really like it's not like one of those dudes where I write at all and then I find people to play this stuff. Like I'll write it like 60, or 7

0% of the way there. Then I'll bring someone like Krim in or Jesse or whoever in the band, like get them involved. And then once they throw in their ideas and get their feedback, then that inspires a whole new wave of writing for me and another level of ideas that wouldn't have happened without their input and wouldn't have happened without their parts. Like, I just won't. I just won't get there. And then the stuff that I'll do is just so much better. Once I've had their input and then you kind

of just keep on going on that cycle. And so I guess even if like at the end of the day, yeah, it's like, like I said, the lion's share is stuff that I technically wrote. It won't be there without that collaborative process at all. Like it's just not nearly as good. And yeah, with these dudes like Devin or Eshun, it just seems like their shit is that good on its own. I don't know. Is it like that for you guys? Oh, 100%. 100%. I can't even imagine like writing a song entirely. Like I did it as a t

our for my solo album, but like, it's very rare and if I ever do it, it's like sort of these, like, work for hire demo contact, you know, it's like I have very clear parameters, so that almost ends up being my collaborator. But I would like to say, like, I think there's been cases where let's have written for the sake of argument, like 80% of a song, and then Mark or Jake will come in with an idea and finish it, or there'll be something I'll be stuck. And it's like, Well, just because I wrote 80

% of that song doesn't mean that I view it as mostly my song, because it still would have been completely incomplete. It was only completed. So if you look at it, mathematic only sure. But in the context of the flow and the creativity, it was literally stopped and probably would have been stopped. Yeah. And there's a lot of really old ideas that I thought would just, you know, fade into the ether that were revived by these guys, even if they're just putting in a riff or just getting something st

art and then that jumpstarts the process. So I think it can be a little deceptive to to look at these things mathematically as far as the contribution goes, because it's more about getting the momentum going. And if they got the momentum going, it doesn't matter if it was 80%, they're getting 100% of that momentum going and it was necessary. So that's sort of more the way I look. I don't necessarily try to keep tabs of wrote what or whatever, but I do know that if the three of us get in a room,

that momentum happens and we've gotten into a room and we are tapped, we're like, Oh, I don't know why we're doing that. Like, I have no ideas, whatever. And momentum just happens. And that's something that maybe we've been able to rely on more than anything. And like, not bad idea, like genuinely great ideas or things that become periphery songs will come out of seemingly thin air when we are like individually uncreative. And that's the sort of magic that I look for. That only seems to happen i

n the collaborative process, which is why I enjoy it so much. It's sort of brings magic out of thin air. Now. How many times have we started a writing session where, like Jake and Jake and I talked about the same thing with you, Misha, because you just finished a solo record right before five. But how many conversations have we had at the beginning of a process? BE like, Yo, I'm a little worried, man. Untapped every time. Yeah, every time. And it somehow nobody knows how. But again, I really thi

nk it's a product of all of the collaboration. I know we're kind of, you know, beating on a dead horse here, but like, that's there is nothing without that unnamable thing happening. Like It's a common thing that we've all felt at the beginning of several records now where it's like, Dude, I don't know, I'm kind of slump and it's been a rough guitar month or you know, I haven't written in a couple of months. It's there's always something but whatever happens sort of spurs us into action just by

nature of the collaboration. Something that I wanted to try for this record is something that Mark and Measure are particularly good at, and I've always kind of been in awe of it and I wanted to try it myself. On on P five was to not necessarily come with premeditated ideas. And one thing that you can always catch Mark or Misha doing when there's like a section that needs to be written is like they're fleshing it out. Stream of consciousness in front of the computer in real time. And I think tha

t's how I wrote a lot of my material on this, this latest record. I didn't come, you know, I didn't come with any really maybe, maybe one, but it didn't end up getting used. And the rest of it was just trying that approach. And it was it was very freeing in way because I had just finished a solo album and I was creatively just tapped. I like put all my best stuff into it and I was just like, Well, let me not stress out about this. Let me just see if I can do like, let me try what they do. And I

think it works so I can't you know, I came out, I came in with nothing and came out of it with my contributions on the record. And I really like I feel like I developed a skill that these guys have had for a really long time, and I only want to keep developing further because it kind of takes a lot of the pressure off to, you know, All right, do I have enough material? Because like, I know that like, you know, 70% of it's going to get axed. So I've got to make sure that I have this much so like

I can have enough to contribute. And I feel like I'm contributing and saying what I want musically. But, you know, trying that approach was was really it was exciting and. I only want to get better at it. How is what did you do before? What's normal for you? I guess because that's how I write too, is like what you just described, the flow flushing it out. So I'm curious what is different about your approach? I say like a lot of times because I'm so I feel like the pressure of having to create, I

'll create stuff at home on my own where I have like almost a seemingly infinite guide to push out an idea. And I don't have the guys kind of waiting to hear some progress. Me and Misha, we're talking about this for our project 4 seconds ago. You know, sometimes, you know, he'll tap me on the show and be like, All right, Jakey, I'm going to leave you to it, because he knows that if he gives me time and space to do stuff, I can usually kind of cook up something that'll be inspiring for us to work

on. And, you know, with the Periphery album, I kind of wanted to work faster, but still kind of maintain the quality because I see these guys doing it and I feel like I can do that too. I just have to not put so much pressure on myself and and try. I'm envious that you, that you that you're able to work. Like I was always been envious of people that can work. And I feel like I can too. I just don't think I give myself like a lot I think I'm I think I am hard on myself. And, you know, I feel lik

e on this record, I was way less hard on myself, which led me to be less stressed out. And I produced the same amount of stuff I always do. So I hope to keep doing it that way. There's also another aspect which is really I've talked about this a lot and I feel like it doesn't need to get highlighted because people will be like, Oh, you know, who's contributing more riffs or this or that. But, but it's such an important part, and I know that you'll be able to relate. This is just yes or no play s

omething, come up with something, yes or no? I trust these guys. There's no conversation, there's no fight about it. It's like, Yes, this is sick. Then answers 2 hours worth of second guessing right there. That would be doing alone. No means. Okay, Can we fix this? Maybe. Let's try it then we fix it. Yes or no? And if no, then maybe we ditch it and no. This like the wrong direction. No one's feeling it. There's just as useful is so important to know what not to do. So important, especially when

we're talking about things like option paralysis. Start to narrow things down that we know we're not going to do that. We'll sort of zeroes in on the stuff that we know we are going to do or that we want to do. So although that may not be, quote unquote, contributing a riff or contributing musically, it is so important and it streamlines the process and it is one of the best parts about collaboration. And one of the things that I hate the most about writing by myself is not having that being stu

ck second guessing everything constantly. And even then I'm getting feedback because I'm writing for something or for someone and I'm sort of waiting to be like, Okay, do you like this? There's been times where, like I've written the entire idea it's to spec, it's exactly as it should be. And I'm so, I have so little confidence in what I've turned in that I'm already starting to plan the next idea that I'm going to do so that when they say, no, we hate this, or Hey, try again, I can be like, Don

't worry, don't worry. I know, I know exactly what I'm going to do next. And more and more often than not, they're like, No, this is great. This is great. I'm like, Oh, cool. So like, I didn't even have to do that. But then that's hours and emails and all that when it could have just been a yes or no collaboration in the room. And that time saving and that stress saving, a massive part of why I like collaboration. You got to trust people's tastes if you're going to take yes or no from that. Abso

lutely. There has to be a deep level of trust. There has to be an understanding that you're all in the same team. You know, a very common thing is people being like, Oh, well, you didn't like my roof, so I'm not into maybe that's why you're just saying you don't like this because I said you didn't like it and you know, that's normal. But if you're dealing with that sort of childish stuff like, yeah, this, this is not a solution. This will just obfuscate everything even further. But if if you hav

e that genuine trust and if you really do believe that everyone's on the same team and it generally requires a reduction of egos, so everyone's like, no, this is not about how many riffs or how many of my ideas make it onto the album. This is about how does this genuinely make me feel? How do we feel about this collectively? Then at that point, then that yes or no can be so quick because you're just taking it as the feedback that it needs to be that no can be like, Well, I was wondering about it

. No. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Then let's ditch that, let's move on. And it's an immediate thing and it really streamlines everything. Yeah, it's what you just said about if you're dealing with that childish shit, this isn't a solution. But if you are dealing with that childish shit, maybe it should take notice of the fact that you are dealing with that childish shit and think about solving that because it really it. This is hard enough. Like writing stuff is hard enough. Like playing is hard eno

ugh. Like just doing the thing itself is hard enough to where you don't need to add extra to it, basically. And I guess one thing for me that I've really started to appreciate lately, basically since getting the band back together and then also like, you know, you are M is going to be ten next year so. Wow, fucking crazy right, thank you. But like, it's one of those things where it makes me think about like, okay, what has, what's worked in life versus things that haven't worked? What's the diff

erence? Because relationship with the band members now is so good and you with the erm thing like, you know it's had its ups and downs but still going in. There's hasn't been anything we haven't been able to figure out and at the end of the day it comes down to exactly this, which is we trust that everyone's on the same team and you're willing to take a yes or no from them. And, and in situations where shit hasn't worked out that really, really simple part of it, that basic part of it has been b

roken. Like just getting a yes or no on things was not working. And then that basically was the root of so many other problems. And that yes or no does exist. Like when me and Finn are dealing with a complex problem, you know, lots of times it does come down to a yes or a no. I am being very upfront with each other and same with the band. And like I said, the shit in my life that hasn't worked out. That's been broken. There's shit in my life that has worked that's been operational. So I think th

ere's a lot to it. It's it's really, really important actually. Agreed. So kick out your band if you don't have it. We might have our conversation. We might have talked about this on like a previous podcast. So forgive me if I'm repeating ourselves from repeating one of us, but like the yes or no component of it is incredibly important, but also kind of like there needs to be there needs to be like good faith in the yes or the no, because we don't we used to kind of like either not respond to th

ings or just shoot them down with no solution. And I think that's kind of something that we've figured out pretty I don't know if it was early on, but early on enough to where like writing albums together is not, you know, it's not a chore, but it's like we we if one of us doesn't like something or we, you know, we think that a section isn't good as it can be, you have to come with either something better or at least like a good intention to make it better. And I think that's that's an important

distinction about like how we do things, because in the past, before we kind of figured out how that works, it it put a lot of stress on certain members and a mostly Meesha because Michelle would put all this time into an idea and then we were like one of us or a group of us like either wouldn't respond or like not really give them the feedback that it was entitled to and. That's, you know, that's counterproductive in it's disrespectful to me this time, stuff like that. So, like, that's just an

example, but it's like, yeah, yes and no is very important, but the type of yes and no is also very important. So, you know, anybody who's listening, I want them to, you know, not take advice and just kind of be like, yeah, so they made it so easy. It's it's just a yes or no. It's like, no. It's like, come with a solution, come with something better or at least come with a good The good intention that you, like are working on somebody, something with your collaborator, and you're not just going

to shoot it down because, you know, whatever arbitrary. And if you don't have a solution, try your best to articulate it, try your absolute best to articulate it, because that's one thing I like. I've had to get better at is like, if I don't like an idea, but I don't know why I don't like it. Like do do I say so? Like, you know, and obviously, like, the answer's yes. And I've, I've pretty much always done that in periphery. But like, that's that's the one thing that we all kind of have this thi

s faith in each other, this this trust that like, you know, if someone doesn't like something, it's clear that they're trying their absolute best to, you know, ascribe terms to it or try it, try to, you know, articulate that in a clear, it means something. And even though the solution is an apparent, even though they're not presenting some kind of fix that that needs to be heard just as just as thoroughly as somebody who has somebody opinion who has like, you know, a very clear cut solution. So

so yeah. Which like saying is is very well put it has to be said in the right way. That's actually really key because I know some people who are very negative if you don't come to the table with the actual solution like totally fleshed out and I think that that's asking a lot. And also I feel like it is, I guess, trying to avoid getting feedback. It's like a good way to avoid getting feedback because if you basically won't take someone's feedback unless they present an idea that's like totally f

inished, you're basically eliminating a lot of opportunity for people to give you. So I think that as as long as people aren't, I guess, destructive about it, as long as they're constructive about it and moving the ball forward, that's a good thing. If it's basically that sucks or something, just know. Just know. Well, I yeah, I know what it's like from the other end of it to let's say, you know, you've been up till four or five in the morning working on an idea and you send it out to somebody e

lse in your band and you wake up to, you know, not really into it. You want to think in your in your head to be like, well, what would you suggest? Like, how would you how would you make this better than Mr.. I just listen to this once and decided I don't like it. I worked all night on this. And, you know, there is this inherent sense of like, you know, what do you know, kind of thing. That's very normal, right? Like, I feel like that's very human. But what's important about the dynamic that we

have in place and the dynamic of any healthy workplace, any healthy relationship, any healthy environment where people collaborate with one another, it could even be just a marriage or, you know, a couple is giving the benefit of the doubt to that person that you're talking to. You know, like even if even if this person doesn't have a solution, I have to be okay with this person giving me an opinion that I don't really like in that moment or that makes me feel not good. You know, it really just

depends who you're talking to and the way it's communicated. And again, part of what makes this dynamic kind of rarefied, this environment that we have in this band. Sometimes it's something Jessie has said to me lately, which has been super helpful. He has not given me the solution to certain things he just said, like some very basic things about a couple of the songs, like they don't feel very connected or something. They should probably work on some of the connective tissue between these part

s and the vibe is good, but like connective tissue is not there and that's not presenting the solution. But like, that's good enough for me to know exactly what I need to do. So sometimes it's not even that someone has to give the solution. It's just if they tell me what's wrong with it because maybe I'm stuck and I can't, I know something's wrong, but I don't know what it is like. That's why I want the feedback. If they just tell me what's wrong with it, sometimes that's enough for me to, like,

know exactly what to do. So yeah, it comes down to who it is and how they do it, which matters a lot because yeah, sometimes someone saying like, That's not good. Well that's cool, but like, what's not good about it? Help. Because obviously if I sent it to you, I thought it was good. So what is it that. What am I not hearing about this? Or like what? What do you think is wrong with it? Why aren't you feeling it? And that helps. But you know what, man Mixers do this a lot. And I think mixers are

wrong when they do this, like when they send a mix. If someone who's not a mixer gives them that they don't like, they will say that, well, they don't know what they're listening to because they're not a mixer or something. It's like, Well, actually you should be taking their feedback into consideration because the Exactly. Because they're not a mixer. They're just telling you like someone who doesn't have a bunch invested into this, they're just giving you their reaction. Chances are, like the

people who are the most of the people who are going to be listening to what this is are not. Yeah, exactly. The professional. Fallacy. Oh, sorry, Jakey. I don't know how that was done. It's that fallacy of like, oh, like if you if chef makes you a steak and doesn't cook it. Well, if you can't cook a better steak, then you're not able to give criticism just because you don't have the toolset to make it yourself doesn't mean that you're not in a position to express how you feel about it. And a lo

t of people may not have the words to fully articulate what they're hearing, but they're still hearing the thing they're hearing. You know, and as you said, in some cases, it can make their opinion more valid because they're not sort of having their view colored by the technical knowledge or, you know, certain aspects of what's going into it. And they can just see it for what it is, which is very difficult sometimes when you're a little too close to it to take that step back. And as someone who

has mixer who's been involved in the mix, I know that I can get very, very obsessed with certain aspects of the mix. And sometimes it can take me a while to take that step back and be like, Oh, actually if I kind of don't obsess over that one thing, the rest of this is all right, or I see where this other issue is, you know? So I think that those perspectives are sometimes even more valuable because it offers perspective that's very difficult to achieve if you're very close to it. Yeah. Do you g

et this thing when you're in the final stages? And I'm wondering for all of you, like were final stages of a song or and stages of a mix, like whatever, just end stages where you can't tell what it you're hearing a more like is this good, Does this suck Like is it weird? Like every album. Every album. Every album, Yeah. So weird. It's just something you just hearing something way too much. It's like when you look at a word, you look at a word, you know, no matter what it is too many times it jus

t loses all meaning. So the musical equivalent of that and it just just in that same way or like these are just a bunch of letters put next to each other. Well, the MC starts to feel that way. It's like, Oh, there's there's the guitars and the drums. Is there even a mix? You, you know, and you start to and it literally can take months. We've been having too. I shouldn't be saying too much about this, but we've been having to listen to some or it doesn't even matter whatever to some, some vinyl t

ests of some some periphery stuff that we're, you know, getting some test presses for and I remember very distinctly how I felt about every mix and my issues with them and the things that I thought I will never able to live with this. This is always going to bother me, you know, And I listen to these mixes now, I'm like, These are really cool like them. This is in my mind, mix sounds a certain way, and then I listen to it. I'm like, Well, this is Wait, what? What? I think this didn't sound as go

od as I thought it did. Like, this is this is really cool. It's got a lot of character and it's that same thing. It's like I was so focused on like the way the snare sound or the guitar tone didn't have this aspect to it. And now that I'm like listening to it for the first time in years, I'm like, Whoa, this mix is actually really cool. I like this like we did. We did a good job, but it's taken years. It's taken me forgetting, forgetting how it sounds. You know, recording. With our tunes to me i

s one of the best examples of this. I don't know of any of you have done this. Like, have any of you recorded with them. Ever to have been doing it since 2015? But you've done it so. Yeah, so much. Oh yeah. Well we record, we never record exclusively, but I think I know exactly what you're going to say. Well, the. Thing is like they're called ever tunes, but I think that once if you're crazy like we are and you record them, they're more like sometimes tunes are kind of tunes and like the level o

f scrutiny for tuning that you get into when using one of those way crazier than normal. And so you're zeroing in way closer on things, being in tune when you're using one of those. And the things that you'll notice being out are things that otherwise you probably wouldn't even notice. And I notice that I will start thinking that things are really out of tune when I use ever tunes. And then after I haven't heard it for a minute, I realize it's great. It's never been more in tune than this. But I

was so zeroed in on it not being like just the most deadly, accurate thing on the planet. Just like impossible for a string to do even with an ever tune on it. The only thing that cures it is time away from hearing it. And I realize I was just being nuts. Wracking Jakey, do you remember this juggernaut? It was our first album where we used ever tunes and I even had a guitar that had ever tune and true temperament. It was the worst playing or sounding guitar I've ever had, but it was like suppos

edly super in tune. And Notley's ear for tuning is freakish. I've never met a person who's like, I thought I was really sensitive to tunings, but he's on a different level, and there was one day I don't even remember what song it was, but we spent entire day just trying to get this one section in tune. I think Mark was tracking or maybe a bunch of us, or maybe it was one of those things where we were passing it back and forth because we're like, maybe one of us can get it in tune. We're even doi

ng things where it's like, Oh, we'll retune it for this chord or whatever. We were going absolutely fucking nuts. I remember that being one of the demoralizing days in the studio. I went home and I was like, I don't know how we're going to finish this record because after a full day of recording, we still didn't get it in tune. And I was like, This is unlistenable, this is unlistenable. And I think everybody heard it and it was just like, This is hopeless. Like, what the fuck are we going to do?

Then we came in the next day and we're like, This is great. We're like, I remember going in, be like, God, we're going to have to listen to this. I don't want to listen to this. This is going to be horrible how like I hate when shit's out of tune. I like this sounds. It sounds totally fine. And I was just listening to the. Test press and. I'm like, God, everything sounds so in tune. Everything's so great. It's really funny. It's really funny how you will just not see the forest for the trees if

you're really, like, just zeroing in on this one aspect. And that's something I try to remember and I feel like Periphery three was an acknowledgment of this. We over edited, overproduced, over tuned, overdid everything to a degree that made us sick in the head on on and on and periphery three or just kind of like whatever. It's fine. It's mostly in tune. Take takes are fine. Let's use the demo, takes whatever, and both albums sound good. There's not there's not really like as a listener, like

I'm like, Oh yeah, like, no, this is great. Like, didn't all that work was kind of for nothing. All that stress was certainly for nothing. And the other tune does another thing and does a tone tax. There's a bit of a tone tax. And as crazy guitar nerds, we get real crazy about our guitar tones of which in the mix with everything you know that percent difference is inaudible but like going nuts over like showing is the ever tune for this part. So much more in tune. Oh man. But the hard telling ju

st sounds so much better. And it's like I don't even remember which parts we use for what. There's no way you could tell. But like at the time, it felt like the most important decision in the world. You know. I think us. I think all of these, like all this stuff we're talking about right now is like side effects of just being into this kind of music. I think. I wonder if, like, if we were in a band, like an indie rock band, if like we had like put it through this level of scrutiny and like, if w

e like actually like our songs by, the end because we wouldn't have to spend so much time being so surgical about everything. So something to keep in mind, like to all the aspiring prog musicians out there, it's like your music is probably good. You're just way too close to it because that's what the music requires. It requires you to be so deep into it that you don't, you know, you're so focused on the technical aspect that you kind of lose sight of what it actually sounds like to just somebody

who just listens to music. So, you know, it's it's just something to keep in mind. You know, I try to when it comes to mixing and stuff, I tend to kind I have my opinions and I have my notes, but I'm probably the guy that has the least amount of feedback because I know that, like, you know, someone like Misha is just, you know, he's hearing all these things that I'm not hearing. So I kind of like just like, leave it, you know, I leave a lot of that really heavy lifting to to him because he know

s he knows what he wants. For me, I don't want to hate the material, so I just let it go. Take a little break at the end of the album process. I'm jealous. Well, you know, I'd be the third guitar player in a. Better thing, though. Too. The thing, though, like, is if you have someone like gnarly mixing your shit, you really could just take a break and let him do it. Yes and no. Because. Because. Well, it depends. You know, I think my, my issue there is that I'm, I have a vision for the mix and Sp

encer's got a vision for the mix. And I think everyone, you know, Matt's got a vision for his drums. Everybody's got a vision for these things. So there's a lot of conversation beforehand as to like what our goal is. And this will affect how he goes to record stuff and the choices that we make. So I'm extremely involved with the mixing process, even though he's the one mixing it and he likes that you know, he he loves for a band to have that vision, it's kind of, like I said, how I love it when

I'm given a spec to write to. Yeah, more detail, the better. So for him, he's just trying to make sure that we're going to be happy. He's not necessarily trying to express himself, he's going to do that naturally, and I think he has the confidence to know that now. So he really just wants to know what we're looking for and how we can achieve that goal. And so I have to be pretty involved because there's a lot of there's a lot of choices and a lot of decisions that get made that kind of put you o

n this path and you hope you choose correctly. But these need to be informed by the desires and the goals that you have. So we actually talk a lot. About saying, though I'm more just saying it as a thought exercise based on what we're saying, because I'm exactly like that too, where I'm hyper involved. But I was just thinking like, So I've got Jen's mixing this album. Even if I'm not involved, it's going to sound great. Yeah, like I am going to Sweden. I'm going to be in his face for two. Yeah.

And like, he's going to deal with me. But at the same time, like, how much of a difference does it? You're making a bit of a wise point in my because if I were to examine what I just said about, about the older records I listen to quite fondly, despite the stress I went through, if I were to give not only an album or if we were to give him, you know, everything that he needs and not give any notes and just be like, do what you want. And short of like leveling, making sure the levels are correct,

but just being like have at it, it would be a great mix. And I'm sure with time I would just see it for what it was and it would be great and I would have zero stress. So that would probably be the smart way to do that. That would be the way to do it to extend my life. But I'm too stubborn to do that because I have to feel some sense of control and, you know, I think knowledge and I are always chasing something. There's always some some goal, there's some vision there with the mix where we want

to see if we can try to. And that's another part of it. And a lot of the times in the past I would say we haven't achieved it or we feel like we've failed. And then looking back in time, I'm like, Well, even though we didn't achieve that very sort of myopic goal, on the whole, we created something really cool actually. So I can appreciate it in hindsight, I think knowledge is, you know, a damn genius at what he does. So and Jens for that matter too, it's it's like, I don't think they're going t

o output anything bad. The worse it will be is just not what you pictured in the moment. Exactly. That's the worst case scenario. Which is not that bad. No, not at all. Not at all. And in a few years or months or whatever, you wouldn't even care or notice. Yeah. Because that thing that they did becomes what it is. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I still do think that there's a lot of value in I guess in, you know, if you have a vision for something, obviously I don't know if people like the there's a h

istory there, a track record of people liking that vision and that like being an integral part. So like I do think like it is just a thought exercise. I do think that shit's important, but I do also know that at the end of the day, if you are getting one of the best mixers in the world to mix your stuff, it's still going to sound great. Yeah. I like that thought experiment and I'd like to temper that with, with, with another sort of aspect to this, which is we're all still learning, you know, no

t all is brilliant, but he's always, he's always he's just he doesn't stagnate. And we're all learning. We're all learning from previous albums. And every time we do an album, it's like, well, we got that, but we didn't get this. We'll get it next time, you know? And that's fun as much as that's, you know, kind of a kick in the nuts at first. It is fun. It's opportunity for growth. And growth is way fun. I enjoy the journey. I don't really like I don't listen to our albums. I don't enjoy the fin

al product in the same way. I just enjoy making it with the guys and whatever. So what's interesting about Periphery five and this is unique, this is the first time ever that this has happened. I've never worked on an album. I felt this way about God. We did more demos than, than than any other album for more amount of time. And as I'm sure you know, demo artist is a real thing. There's something that happened where we kind of captured what it is that knowledge and I were trying to capture, and

that's never really happened. You know, there's always been some aspect that didn't that got lost in translation or that didn't quite make it, but this one happened and this has never happened. But this is what I've been chasing all these years or decades at this point. So I had a vision for what I wanted. This this album to be. And and although it's a little bit different, it kind of took on a life where I was like, Oh, there's an opportunity to get this kind of vibe and all. He heard it and he

got these performances out of Matt which I'm just like, Man, this sounds like a real drummer beating the shit out of his drums. And as far as I know on the album, the snare is all real. There's just a little bit of room reinforcement sample, like it's all natural. It's Matt beating the shit out of drums, which is why it sounds like that it's a very live performance, which I think is a bit subversive in now. Like, like these massive one shot sounding mixes that sound huge but don't necessarily s

ound like a band. I think we were able to straddle that line and the life that was breathed into it by that performance and all these bass performance and and just the mix and the vibe made it that as soon as I got like some workable version of the new mix, even though it wasn't final and stuff needed to be leveled, I stopped to the demos. That's never happened before. It's always been a thing of like, Oh, let's try to get this vibe, let's try to get that. But all of a sudden the demos sounded s

tiff and lifeless and it injected this, this, this energy into these songs that they just didn't have that. In some case, I didn't even know that they could have. And that elevated some of these songs that that really needed something in the 11th hour, like songs like Wildfire. I always like the concept of it. I always liked or I didn't even always like it. That was a tough song. But when we got it, I like the idea of it, but we were talking about leading with it and I was like, I don't know, li

ke it's kind of missing. But when I heard in all these MCs, I was like, This is this is it. This makes so much sense, you know? So that's the power that a good mix and sort of appropriate performances and everything sort of converging perfectly can happen. This has never happened before. And I told the guys, you know, I was like, I think we have something really special with this album because I've never felt this way, never felt this way. I know everyone always said, Oh, this album was the grea

test, whatever, I don't care. I'm just saying like I felt like it was special. And there was I was seeing a very palpable difference and change in my approach and how I felt about it, which is the most important thing, because I'm very selfish in these. I think we all are. It's just we want our relationship, relationship to this music to be a certain way. And usually by the end of the album it's just done. It just falls apart, you know, or just you accept it's going to be something different and

like, I'll get used to it and you do as to your point. But the point that I'm making is that the reason that it's worth chasing all of this is because even if it takes two decades or whatever, maybe you'll you'll eventually get it. And that's a wonderful feeling, man. That was amazing. I loved that. I love that. For the first time ever, it was like, Fuck it. I don't give a shit about these demos. They're boring and lifeless and dull like these mixes. The one that the album is actually I want to

listen to. And I thought that was really special. And I letting all of you know that like, I think he really did an incredible job and that Matt really, I think Matt really breathed life into these songs in a way that, you know, I, I haven't experienced, you know, it was it was really, really a beautiful thing and a really special thing. I'll never forget that. And I'm going to chase that feeling again. And fortunately, I don't know if we'll ever experience that because I understand how much of

that came to chance. But like that, that is kind of what I'm searching for when I'm as obsessive and when I'm, you know, obsessing over every little detail and talking to knowledge constantly about the concept of the mix and trying to get everything together to get that feeling. Well, it does sound great. And I that is worth it. Like, I've only had that once ever and it was on the new songs that Jens mixed. That's the only time I've ever been able to forget the demo. And now when I hear the dem

o, I'm like, Yeah, this is not as good. But that's a rare feeling. That's a special feeling. Then, you know, you're like, Oh man, we're on to something. Yeah, because I am used to the demo. Still having special about it that wasn't captured in that. Even though the record's good, the demo still like there was something, you know, there is some sauce on it or something. So I know what you're saying and I do think that's worth it. Absolutely. I shouldn't speak to this since this is a guitarist pod

cast, which is we approached one thing a little bit differently. We've been we've been leaning into this in the past, but this is the most we've ever done that. This album probably has more demo takes than any other album that we've ever done, and I think it's because I had a theory that a big part of what that demo ideas is is this this raw, creative energy where you're not that focused on getting it perfect. You're just so excited to get the idea out and see how it sounds. And that is that is

an intangible that is impossible to recapture. Absolutely impossible. And I know you've done it so many times trying to like redo that lead line or that vibe part or, redo the riff and like it's like it's better, but something is missing. Why does that old one sound better? You know? And so I made a point, and this can be a good little bit of advice if you're recording, because it worked very well for us. When we were writing, I made a point of telling Jake or Mark if it was myself, you know, He

y, let's get this riff tight. And it would never be like final take type because we wouldn't go that obsessive. But I was like, Let's get this good, because sometimes there's some notes that would be kind of, you know, muddled up or whatever. Let's punch in this part. What are you playing there? And almost if I was doing the final take, maybe like 80% as much of the attention to detail as I would so that we could keep the momentum going so as not to kill the workflow. But you still have the exci

tement. It's still like kind of a demo riff, but it's recorded pretty well. And as a result, when it came time to rerecord, it was really just spot checking. It was like a couple of bits. It's like, Yeah, this isn't as clear as I want, but the majority of it was intact. And then that's what we ramped. And I think that that played very large part in why like the guitars and the album have like the vibe of the demo that we like but just enhanced. Well, you know what, that's actually really wise. I

can echo that. Part of what I did on the new DOT demos was made sure certain things strings are new. It's pretty in tune. Some of the stuff is sloppy, but like a lot of the parts that I knew, I probably wouldn't be able to redo like some of the leads or cleans. Like I focused on getting them close enough to where I'd be okay with keeping them, and then I did end up keeping them, and that's a big part of it. Sorry, we but to say. I was just about to say there were some conversations along the wa

y when it came time to do final track and where we'd spot check something, a demo tape and be like, Oh, it's not, it's not that clean, but it's got like character and it's got some like explosiveness to it. I fucking let's just keep it. There's probably going to be some guy yelling over it anyways the entire time. You can't really even hear the fact that it's like slightly out of tune or that it's like not the cleanest thing ever. But yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of what Matias and referrin

g to. And there were, there were, there are many of those moments I remember there being like a conversation having to be had. But it was, it was almost always just like, let's go with that. Let's let's go with the one that that has character behind it. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's the thing I did differently. The main thing was that there is demo on the finals. Maybe that is something that for people to take away from this is to try your hardest to get the demo as like non

shitty without killing the momentum like you said. But like certain things that like people just disregard on demos, which is like good. They don't like making sure the guitars set up like new strings, like all these like things that like when you're in a writing session can go out the window because you're like writing. You're not thinking about changing strings, you're not thinking about those types of things you're writing. Maybe do think about them enough to, where if you did do a better jo

b on the demo, you can just keep it. And not killing the momentum part is is the tricky part. That's what you got to figure out. We tend to move fast and that's why the riff is good enough. It's like, Cool. Here's the idea for the next section. Let's go, let's go, let's go. But it was kind of just being like, Well, all right, hold that thought. Let's just let's just tighten this up. I need that. I need some better takes. Let's fix this up. I don't I can't really hear this part too well. It's jus

t finding that that that balance. But I like that so much. I think that's the way we're going to go forward. And yeah, I'd say like the majority of periphery five is demo tapes. That's awesome. Yeah, well, I think it's a good place to end the episode on that note, and that's really super, I don't know, super helpful to me because like I said, that's something that I discovered lately, and I think that I just hope people away from this and take their demo some more seriously. But yeah, it's the r

ecord sounds great. I'm not just saying that it really does and has some of the cool stuff I've ever heard from you guys. And the solos are next level for sure too. So great work all around. And yeah, the everything about it just sounds great. And I remember also gnarly. Send me some of those drums as they were being recorded. So I heard them in the roar of the rise to roar and they already sounded just beastly. Matt is just such a fucking animal, so anyways, great work and great talking to you

three again. As always. It's always a pleasure, man. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. It's a pleasure. Anytime.