Positive Self-Expression and Body Image with StyleLikeU’s Elisa and Lily | The Man Enough Podcast

coming up on man enough we feel that it's really important for men to have these honest conversations about self-image about body image about the pressures that they face what we would call an eating disorder for for a woman if you go to your local gym like you'll probably find a lot of the same characteristics that are sort of in a different package asking people to undress and take off their clothes until they're in their underware as we're interviewing them about style and self-image and iden

tity be was you know our way of like showing people literally and symbolically like removing all the layers of like cultural conditioning and everything we've been taught about how we're supposed to look how we're supposed to dress how we're supposed to be how everything and like reclaiming our bodies and ourselves outside of [Applause] that being man enough what does that mean it's really manly to mess up admit you wrong and then grow I couldn't accept that I was evil so maybe I'm broken but th

ose broken things could be corrected intimacy between a father and a son is me as wanting to like put my head in your lap I love you son you haven't called me benevolent sexist but my experience is women are better even if it's a positive it's still not equality I don't blame men for that I just blame the system this is man enough hey everybody welcome back to the man enough podcast I'm Jamie Heath I'm L plank indeed we got no Justin baldoni but um Justin sends his love he does Liz look at you i

n your dress yeah is this what you do all the time just like show up in the coolest coolest dresses only when I'm with you um and all of you uh at home watching no I just I want to look nice I care I care and I want to reflect you know my mood I feel like that's what men can miss out on when you're not as connected to Fashion or that you're not encouraged to care about fashion it's like a way of expressing how I how I feel that day oh good by the way before we get into everything um you you need

to follow us on YouTube because you can see I mean look at Liz right now she's just got all the joy and all of that listen to us and watch us on YouTube uh because we have a cool little Channel over there so uh what do we want to talk about today we're gonna get into a lot of stuff we're gonna get into a lot of stuff we we're having a lot of Firsts uh I I feel at the end of of this season we're first yeah we're having a a first I don't think we've ever had a mother daughter on the show we have

not which is interesting because normally we talk about uh subjects that I would say at least front-facing appeal to men um being that our show's called man enough yes but I think all things should appeal to men yeah yeah um not just something that specifically that you look in a men's book but things that pertain to women and all genders should be something that we all care about and learn from and um so it's really exciting that we have two women on a mother and daughter who are they Liz we ha

ve mother and daughter Duo and co-founders of style like you an amazing platform amazing brand super popular way more than us yes uh I believe Liz it was like one of lizzo's first interviews and sort of started her on her body positivity Journey which she's obviously on and taking us all on so we have Alisa Goodkind and Lily mandal balm they created style like you but they also created what's underneath which is a really popular YouTube series where people talk and they undress while they talk a

bout the amazing things that they are doing in the world they really undress meaning their clothes they take off clothes got down to your like underwear yeah yeah yeah it's happening maybe we should do that while we do this episode um no we're not going to rip it off but it's a really cool concept so yeah welcome Lily and Eliz yeah we're so excited to be with you today thank you so much for for having us really happy to be here what's really sweet is we we're g to get into it um hopefully you gu

ys are willing to go in because we want to go in right we don't want to just have like a bus stop conversation we want to have like uh like we're hanging out and have a real conversation we love this we just recently had a mother and a son on and it was such a sweet experience to see their relationship and discuss things that pertain to advancing Society really um so to have a mother and a daughter on is a first for us and we're excited to have you guys so you guys obviously are close yeah you c

ould say that were you always close yeah I mean we we were always close when I was growing up but I don't think anything can compare to working together for the last 13 years so we're really we're we're as close as it gets I think for in a healthy way way for a mother and daughter yeah yeah I'm sure it took a lot of work and it takes a lot of work it we'll get into it we start the show by asking every guest um when is the last time that you didn't feel enough do you want to start Lily I think it

's like a daily practice to feel enough and I think there's I have to talk myself into embodying that like in all kinds of moments in all kinds of ways like whether it's a negotiation that I'm doing for business I have to remind myself that like I matter enough and my needs matter enough to like speak up for myself and to get what makes me feel comfortable in the arrangement to happen or in my partnership I have to my romantic partnership I have to constantly remind myself that my voice matters

so I think it's like kind of a daily a daily thing yeah good answer yeah I would say about 50,000 times a day even though I'm in the best place that I've ever been and I feel like I'm the prime of my life it makes me think of something very recent with my partner my husband of 37 years wow yeah I've been increasingly expressing my needs and understanding what needs are because even though I'm from a very revolutionary moment in time and a lot of what we're doing with s like you is coming from th

at time in terms of self-love and the right of everyone to feel whole and to understand their purpose in the world and to understand that they have so much mean meaning and that no one here is random so the Awakening of that um has been really huge for me and I have been increasingly ask you know understanding that I have needs and he has increasingly had to deal with that um and and then that I have then he that he triggers me and I have had to feel okay that he triggers me um and not feel like

a bad person for like saying I don't like that you trigger me you need to stop triggering me and then um he gets triggered and right and then and then I have to be okay with the fact that um I don't then have to take care of him feeling badly that he triggered me he recently was just I get it and I I I you know you've only recently been talking about all this so it's going to take me a while to unwrap this and to unravel this but I hear you and I get it 37 years in wow yeah well yeah we're havi

ng a lot of growth right now I'd say they're having the most most growth they've ever had in the last like few years yeah and this is and forgive me for even asking but I don't want to assume this is your dad yeah it's my dad so you've experienced their whole relationship and the transformation and the triggering and all the what they've come to and can I ask how does he trigger you what are things if you can share oh yeah um oh yeah because I think that what you just described it's difficult yo

u know it it we're triggered because our own wounds so then there's the separation between what is mine and what is his and like you know that's all really I'm really that's a lot to deal with and and to figure out but it doesn't mean that the person he he he still shouldn't be triggering me because it's or could be more conscious of like because you can't you can't fully put it on him if some of it your no no it's yeah it is me so what is he do um yeah so I'm trying to think you know it's reall

y weird because I have this thing where I get very upset but then I completely forget about it I'm like and like I'm the same yeah and then I completely forgot why I was I'm so upset um does that mean that some of the things that you were upset about were maybe not that material if you can't remember well there this is the thing it's little things like paying attent like being present paying attention listening like saying something oh okay so yeah it was yesterday it was the other day it's some

thing like I am trying to de-stress we always go for a walk at the end of the day all around like canals and everywhere with the dog and and I saw these ducks these this duck with these little V little ducklings you know little ducklings and I'm trying to like I'm very much more spontaneous and I'm like let's just walk the other direction and who cares about time and who cares about what we're eating he's always like it's late and who care I don't care and I see this mother duck with their baby

ducks and the and they're and it's so cute and the Ducks are plopping in the water and I'm taking videos of them to send to my two kids and their Partners I'm so excited to do that and I'm so excited to share that moment and he's like on the other side of the bridge going it's late and I was like I I asked you to like give me space and to have like that we could have a good time and be present and be spontaneous and not be worrying about time and not be rigid I asked you that I I forgot to tell

you that I asked him that okay to not do that you were clear okay and he couldn't not do that right he couldn't to not do that and do you think he's triggered by you being so free because that's his thing of control and feeling right yeah well he's he's just I have worked on myself all of my life and I'm in a ve very spiritually psychologically like it's a Non-Stop for me um it's just a Non-Stop like based on what we do obviously it's just it's just a Non-Stop you know he wants that but he's got

a lot of stuff that he is protecting right that protects him and it's really interesting that we're you know this brings me to like what we're going to be doing with you guys which we're so excited about and partnering on a what's underneath men and masculinity series because um as I am looking at the people that we're going to shoot and like looking at this issue I'm like oh whoa like how much of this is personal to him but how much of this is society you know and I'm I'm really seeing it like

I'm really seeing like how he just couldn't be that person you know and he just was I mean I I see it like a ton it's like and you know I think women we've had more of these conversations I've had the uh message sent to me as as a young girl that my needs aren't as important and so I think our male partners that the great ones make space for that and I think the women we can forget that like oh oh right like men have this too and and men are just kind of at the beginning and your husband you kn

ow is not of of a generation where I'm I'm sure these things were talked about um in the way that they are now and so I think think having that same empathy for them can be difficult because we just assign it to their individuality and this is just the way that they are and that's why they're choosing to do that some of it is is really the system I mean uh Justin's wife Emily talked about that right that it opened up a whole other layer to to to these arguments which which felt small and sort of

individual and become but I think that's where the opportunity lies right yeah it's like if it was a small thing by itself and it never happened and it was a random thing and no big deal but when it's like a pattern of small things then it's it is a big deal of course the empathy is true it is important also and his programming is so so deep much deeper and in terms of his being able to get his needs met I'm thrilled that we're having this conversation man enough which is expanding and you know

um we want to partner with people that are better than us you don't want to be the smartest person in the room so we are partnered with you so that we and ourselves can learn and be better and hopefully um extend your platform and extend hours what are we doing tell us what we're doing why we're doing this so we're partnering on a season of our what's underneath series that will exclusively be exploring masculinity and specifically vulnerable masculinity um so you know we've interviewed you kno

w our our platform so far has mostly been focused on women or female identifying people or gender non-conforming folks um trans folks that been our Focus to date but we feel that it's really important for men to have these honest conversations about self-image about body image about the pressures that they face as well and so we and we think it's important you know as sort of the root of as if our goal is to unravel patriarchy in our way and to help people feel more liberated and free and who th

ey are we don't think we should exclude men from that conversation and that um it's you know at the root of the problem so it's time to talk about stuff and and just to be very clear it's a what's underne Series so they will be doing you know taking so what people do basically is they come in in their layers of their Unapologetic style like 10 11 12 layers 10 11 12 so so dressed like I am but with more layers 10 11 12 layers purposly I would come in if I were a we can only ask as many questions

as there are layers yeah with each with each with each because as we so it's about a 2hour interview gets very deep and very vulnerable vulnerable and very it starts out more with the less vulnerable questions about style and assumptions that people make about you based on your appearance and then you know we go deeper and deeper and deeper into more personal and deeper questions as the layers come off as the layers come off each question I take so if I'm a guest I'm gonna bring 20 layers on put

my hoodie put my hat put my I mean you don't have to like it's more like 20 it's more like 10 to 12 items fine put it on you asked me a question well we ask we ask more or less the same questions but then we vary those depending on the windy journey of their story so in between we go but then we come back to the to the next question to the next question by the end of it by the end of it it's a it's a full circle and you're in your underwear I love it yeah because I think often times we posture

we hide behind our homes our money our jobs our name our status our height our clothes and you tear away those layers and we're not postering as much you can be more vulnerable and now you're like naked literally in your truth and and also like one of the things I just want to add like we have um purposely you know gone for every story and person and type and diversity that we can find not because we know the answer it's so that they can tell us it's we we have learn experience we have learned c

ompletely from the people that we've interviewed they teach us maybe you can share with us and with our audience why you speak to these things of course man enough we are talking about these things because we do think that all people need to have voices that can Echo their own maybe give them a little bit of guidance hear someone else's vulnerability finding a safe place that men can be uh be accountable how we can be better to ourselves but also better for women better for everyone so that's pa

rt of our agenda it's always been what is yours how did this come about tell us what you are really trying to do we started style like you when I was 19 um I'm 33 now um it was an accident that it turned into what it's turned into um basically my mom you can speak if you want to to your side of the story do you want to say yeah usually I tell my side first because I'm younger no um but uh yeah so in my 20s I was a fashion Ador and stylist in New York um at all the fashion magazines and at coni N

ast and which was they were the main ones publishing all the fashion magazines and it was just an incredibly eye-opening really mindblowing it was a mindblowing experience to be in New York in the 80s at that time like as everyone talks about it was that and the the other editors of the other magazines it's changed a lot but at the time they were every age they didn't wear the same designer clothes they all were extremely individual extremely unique it wasn't this machine that it's become so um

I just had this incredible experience of what it of understanding and having my mind open to what it was to really be an individual you know down to every ring on your finger down to every way you wore your everything outer and inner expression was seamless as time went on I dropped out for a while when I had kids I taught yoga I discovered my whole spiritual side which is a huge part of sty like you meditation and motherhood and um and then I went back to it as a freance Fashion Stylist and edi

tor and I faced a world that I did not know like it was was it was just a shocking difference of you know cubicles and marketing machine and not giving clothes to anyone over 14 years old for the cover of a magazine you know that's an exaggeration I mean kind of like it was like all about marketing all about brainwashing all about the 14-year-old becoming the 25y old and only buying that Designer so like it wasn't about honoring someone who had done incredible things and they were 70 or 80 or 90

you know or or various all other things as I had experienced so it just become a mar like about money yeah just exploiting people's insecurities in order to sell clothes everything was about the fashion shows which were once in these very unique individual places depending on the brain and the and the creativity of the designer who could express themselves fully and no one was like the other and no one was copying each other and suddenly it was they were front row and hierarchy and snobby and p

retentious and exclusive and mean and everyone was we wearing the same thing and everyone was wearing the same designer bag that was more that way more than half a a year of rent I was really devastated wow devastated it's so funny because what you descri what you describe is what I know to be fashion I don't know that other part and I love clothing I love like but fashion does not appeal to me at all because to me it's that it's like an elitist expensive scary scary like you know makes you feel

terrible makes you feel like you're not part of the conversation it was all Des very designed to be that way growing up I was like when people would say do you want to work in fashion like your mom I'd be like no like that's super official that's mean it's exclusive it's pretentious like I don't get it it's not something I want to be part of um but I did we did share this passion for people and their self-expression through style and I started and we knew these people that were not being shown

in magazines and the front in front of the camera who really marched to the beat of Their Own Drum and how they dressed and how they expressed themselves through clothing and where it was very distinctly different than what fashion media was putting forth in that they were being it was an expression of something very deep inside of them something very Soulful something connected to their story and also like a symbol of being just this like Fierce individual who was like knew themselves and was c

omfortable in who they were we started to realize that style had this potential to be an empowering thing something that was an empowering expression that um you could be part of no matter who you were what you looked like your body was how old you were we just picked up a home video camera one day and started to interview those people that we thought that you know the it started with literally the five or 10 people that we just like knew we just picked up the phone and we're like can we come in

to your home with a home with a home video camera into your closet and ask you and ask you about why you dress the way you dress and what it says about you and your story and how did you get so strong to defy these norms and not conform to what fashion media is telling you you have to be and very intentionally diverse though from the very the next was super diverse and and we just were so immediately like high off of the experience like I was just my mind was blown right away and as to you know

realizing that I could I could maybe like have style and still have this body and I could still and feel good and have fun with clothing and and be empowered as a person the very the very first one we did the very very first one um she starts to talk about her flat chest and why she loves it this was in 2009 like she's talking about how she loves that she has no cleavage meaning and as she was talking about how she doesn't wear a padded bra to like change herself she instead owns this part of th

is thing that maybe in society is deemed a flaw she was embracing and not just embracing but like fully owning and being like this is my favorite part of my body I don't wear a padded bra I actually like like to wear low cut shirts where you see that I don't have clavage and she's very feminine person and so we were immediately she used to wear padded bras cuz she's super flatchested and was immediately like oh wait never again no like I after that never again after experiencing I I I it was I w

as never again I was like it's my favorite part of my body I and and so now we're like over a thousand videos later we learned basically through all these interviews that like the unifying thread between everybody that we were drawn to to interview in this way was that it really wasn't about their clothing at all it was about their sense of comfort in their skin that's what we were drawn to in them like you could be two could be wearing the same outfit but if one person like is really owning who

they are and that's that self-expression is coming from that place that's What Makes You Be Like H who is that person and so beautiful like that that's the thing I I even I even cringe a little bit now whenever you know anyone says she's beautiful or he's handsome like I I I just I I don't I just feel like what does that mean like it's it's anymore like it's for we're so we're so changed in our brains that it is completely about whether you feel you are MH you can tell if someone feels good or

is well then right so then we I used to say you could wear a paper bag and have style and then that's what led to what's underneath basically so we basically started to realize that what what we were drawn to in these people were not actually their clothes it was their comfort in who they are and how could we show the world that how could we show the world that style is actually not about the clothing that you're wearing but it's about self-acceptance and being comfortable in your skin and so th

at's how we came up with the concept for our video is what's underneath which is now what we're kind of known for which is with is the undressing and style meaning Style mean like style is kind of used and now I mean it's grown the word is grown in terms from when we were originally using it because now to me it's about power you know it's about love it's a you know it's it's it's just the outer expression of that self Fierce self Lov asking people to undress and take off their clothes until the

y're in their underwear as we're interviewing them about style and self-image and identity be was you know our way of like showing people literally and symbolically like removing all the layers of like cultural conditioning and everything we've been taught about how we're supposed to look how we're supposed to dress how we're supposed to be how everything and like reclaiming our bodies and ourselves outside of that beautiful I think I had read that you felt like you had transferred to her a low

self-esteem is that an accurate um recollection so what it sounds like is that you've what you're telling me now is all about how do you have your esteem right and how do you feel in your body it's not about how someone thinks I'm beautiful or not but how do I feel about myself and therefore beauty comes from within so what have you done to get to that point now ourselves yeah yourselves because when you I think that's a big statement to say that I feel like so much I put on to my daughter to ha

ve low self-esteem because of obviously the way that you then behaved and demonstrated it to how do you deal with that what what has been the how did how did I undo it correct radical honesty becoming defenseless uh looking at deep deep work on myself freeing myself how did you recognize it how did you realize that you had transferred that or at least in your belief that you transfer that to your daughter it was at the beginning or did I tell you it was at the beginning of sty like you when when

you started to want you wanted me to photograph you like in tight clothes and like or or without clothes and like you were you were really exploring your your body and your your own acceptance and that was before what's underneath what had happened like growing up is not necessarily that she modeled low self-esteem like CU she always had the ideal sort of in my mind what was the ideal body so she I think I embodied a lot of confidence growing up like as far as your physical appearance like to m

e as a child I thought I looked at her as a confident embodiment of like Beauty um and and I wanted to look like her cuz she had the ideal that like fashion was portraying and I didn't in body specifically I wanted to be more like you and have your confidence but I thought in order to have that I had to get skinnier and so and then the what she did that was problematic is that she she was as a mom her biggest like sort of flaw was that she want didn't whenever my brother or I were um struggling

with something she wanted like a quick fix kind of so if I was struggling with my body image she was like okay lose weight like cuz she didn't want me to be unhappy she wanted me to fit in she wanted me to have good positive experiences with the boys in middle school and I wasn't and so she was like maybe just lose weight you know like so she would encourage me to diet and lose weight and so and and then when I would I'd be I would be on these like yo-yo this yo-yo dieting thing of dieting losin

g weight getting the validation from men and my crushes that I finally wanted and then I would like lose it and gain the weight back and then she'd you know reinforce it again maybe you should lose you know she' sit me down and say well maybe exercise more maybe eat less so she actually like it was more it was more like active that you were like part of making me feel like something was wrong with my body and and then she she was kind of like for lack of a better word like kind of a mil like she

was like you know she was the hot she was she was a super hot mom that like you know the boys that I wanted them to have crushes on me had crushes on her you know so wow oh that's complicated so it wasn't until we started style like you and I I don't know it was just it just propelled both of us on this just like explosive unlearning Journey when we started interviewing all these people that had so many different body types and self- expressions I started to realize that I could maybe accept my

self we realized together that we were both victims of this we both right even if you don't look the same and you could yeah your bodies could be completely different you're still under the same propaganda and the same system makes you uny with your body CU I can I almost can guess that even though you had the quote unquote ideal body I'm sure that you found things that were wrong with your body right and you but you you didn't see that you only saw oh she's she has the ideal she must be so happ

y and you know if I'm like if I get that body then I'll be happy too but we're all just you know yeah I just wanted to es I just wanted to go Jean shopping and like fit slide into the skinny jeans like she was but that wasn't happening for me did you get to a point or have you gotten to a point where you've F accepted your body and and who you are yeah so I don't think you're I wouldn't say I don't think you're ever like there I don't think there's like an end but I do think as close to the end

as there is I am as far as like the UN unlearning and deconditioning is that a word of my brain um like so basically through interviewing now we've interviewed for our what's in series like probably almost 200 people I'd say and um basically what happened is as we were we were interviewing people especially like curvier or plus-sized people that um I that owned that that own that about themselves I started to you know look at them and just be like be like I genuinely found them so beautiful beca

use and I started to realize oh that's because they're owning it like it's the only thing that's between me and that beauty that they're exuding is not changing something physically about myself it's just getting to a place where I can own it the way they're owning it and so I just made my work finding a way to own it instead of obsessively trying to change it yeah so that which I did through many means but the biggest thing was like the representations as I wasn't I hadn't grown up with the rep

resentation of bigger bodied people women specifically owning their bodies so I didn't so once you see it then you can start to you see people and own it and feel good in it and flaunt it and feel safe and that they're just as wonderful and beautiful and accepting and all those things and and the actual you know one of one of the really big thing and I think I mentioned this before is just it's a complete redefining of beauty a that we've experienced um a complete change of neural Pathways compl

ete like because of the experience of what's underneath because watching people go through this cathartic transformational experience of doing the interview and being and and witnessing that and you actually see that you know the messiness of their Journey the the struggle is the ultimate thing that was the springboard to their power and to their strength and to their purpose the you know just watching this happen you know this unraveling and then at the end how they what they look like how they

're radiating when they're not wearing makeup when when everything is off and the clothes are on the floor to hear a mother and a daughter who clearly love each other who are both stunning in your um presence and the fact that you can have two women can have two different body types and experience some of that I think that's still a something that was probably designed by men you are wonderful and you had the ideal body type but for a lot of communities that wasn't the ideal body type that's som

ething that's come out in what's that's all when we started to do what's underneath um every ill of the society poured out right well and also we we've interviewed we've interviewed a lot of like truth black women who felt inadequate for being too thin or something you know yeah 100% it's a it's a whole I want say it's a whole different thing we're still living than breathing the same air um however there is a different Dynamic had you possibly been raised in a black community maybe you would ha

ve seen a lot of men boys not necessarily want to hit on your mom more than they would have you because you may have fit the type that was attractive to them and maybe that would have looked different but um the fact that do even here um and that I get to hear this and listen to this and have kids of my own I have four kids and um two that are seven and six a boy and a girl and my daughter is Slim my sisters were never slim I don't know what she's gonna look like in five years and 10 years the i

dea that her selfworth could be have anything to do with whether she's 20 pounds this way or 10 PBS this way or fits in this fashion or that and her worth and not feeling seen and valued and loved and gorgeous and beautiful and stunning and and captivating to the world based on body type based on men in a boardroom who are you know deciding what on the cover of Vogue exactly exactly like based on how badly they can make you feel so you spend money yeah and the Disney characters that that have al

ways been like this thin and look like this it's literally a crime why why why do you think it's a crime can you tell us more about that because it's taking advantage it's it's exploitive it's robbing people it's robbing people of of everything that it's the opposite of the way it's supposed to be we are supposed to be uh whole we're supposed to be fully Alive we're supposed to live our unlimited beliefs like every we we all have unlimited beliefs and I believe we're supposed to live those belie

fs like we're supposed to live our dreams like they're not an accident dreams like they're not an act everyone has them and everyone has their own and we're supposed to do them and so they're taking that away they're they're robbing us of of of our you know of our purpose of our of our of our soul of our light of everything and it's destroying the world because I think we're stuck on a treadmill I mean we interiew like stuck on a treadmill yeah or a hamster wh to Nowhere yeah and it's and and we

feel that self-acceptance is resolving that problem because the problems of the world are so overwhelming the environment it's so overwhelming everyone is obviously so overwhelmed um and that where does it begin I we feel that it begins with self-acceptance because if we weren't on this treadmill and looking outside of ourselves to feel good about ourselves to feel valid if we and just and wasting our time with that we would probably solve these problems yeah and what's so interesting is that a

lot of the people who are desperate to preserve the system the way that it is on and you know happen to be to to to be men right if we think about lizo who went on your show and as I said in the intro you know it was really a really defining experience for her and now she's become um this this this role Ro model for for a lot of people to accept their bodies the way that they are and she has so much fun with it sure there are women who will talk [ __ ] about lizo but I I feel like the men who a

re the mo the people who are the most public about it and who take the most offense are people who aren't even women right or people who are not black women why do men care about lizo loving her body so much what is the threat to them everything yeah I think I know yeah what tell us I don't think I know I think you have a hypothesis thank you I'm just going to just speak for me because I can't find the words no there's been a few times you've actually said the word that I wish I would have said

I think men have been conditioned to think that one particular beauty is the beauty it's not black women have not been on the cover of magazines that's the idealis it's the Christy Brinkley of the world and the whoever else the other Kate right and all all of that right and not that they're not beautiful and wonderful and but that's been what's the stand so boys are raised with that when you look at um boys that look at porn most of the porn would all be a certain size women um anything that was

on anything that would stimulate you was always a certain siiz woman so then when You' find a larger sized woman own that I think what it does to men is that oh wait a minute if that now becomes the standard that's I I don't want women to own that because I want her to lose weight I want her to look like what I have been told is beautiful and what I'm sinking after so lizo threatens men's wife that's a plus-sized woman and now she's not gonna try to lose weight because she's now following lizo

instead of Christy wrinkley why I think Christy so it threatens our standard of what we and status and status as men of having a thin right or having a woman that fits a certain and now when I say our I don't mean mine let me just separate mine from that speak but but but probably me too to be truthful you know I mean I I'm sure I drink the same Kool-Aid that the rest of the world drinks and I can try to like dilute it with as much as truth as I can but it's still drinking a Kool-Aid or exposed

to it at least um but I think that has something to do with that it threatens our own well men are really suffering also at the end of the day they're suffering also with this problem like because they are so limited in their in themselves because of this as well that a person a bit a larger sized person or this an older or any you know anybody is so ick to them you know that it's it's it's it's really threatening to their power you know and I think that's one of the reasons why we can't wait to

do the series with you because it's you know obviously you know this problem this everything that you stand for and it is such a big they are the men are the core and especially white men and um they need you mean at the root of the problem at the root of the whole problem is this is is is there inferiority and insecurity indeed and also I think we have to model to our young boys a different thing so what I have noticed is a lot of fathers that have young boys if they were to say to them well l

et me take it to race for just a minute and then I'll relate it so I have a friend who is deliberate and whenever he sees a black girl he says in front of his son oh isn't she gorgeous oh she's so beautiful he gets to hear his father comment about how beautiful a black girl is they're white he doesn't do it with white he knows that's the standard that he's getting from everywhere else white women are beautiful they're beautiful they're the standard he doesn't hear that black women are beautiful

but he hears his dad say to him and acknowledge not like he's lusting after them just like oh my god look how stunning she is oh she's so I love what she's wearing whatever it is to Champion and see her this boy's now raised is is up and he's dating a black girl it's a white kid play a a dark skinned black girl does it have anything to do with the fact that his home champion and acknowledge the beauty of black women 100% I believe it does because the world doesn't so what if we do the same thing

if we're only commenting on the girl that looks like whatever is said is supposed to be on the cover of Vogue but if boys are hearing other people model like man look how beautiful she is and not just like the physical appearance but this has a big part of it and we're acknowledging and being vocal about how beautiful people are that are different sizes and our boys hear it so I want to make sure that my son who's been getting images who's seven all the time of what he thinks the standard is an

d the TV shows he does watching the cartoons at all of a certain figure that he hears me acknowledge more than anyone else women that don't fit that model not that they're not beautiful but he's going to already get that he doesn't need to be to reinforce that he needs to be reinforced and have eyes and vision um to see the beauty in all people in all sizes and all skin colors so I think that's a practice we can do as fathers to our young boys and in schools and those that we influence to um hav

e them witness us acknowledge the beauty and and and many others right and ultimately none of why why should any of us be dominated by a culture that's just selling us things we we should be ourselves we shouldn't be what they want us to be sure do you think there's maybe a degree of like why men are threatened by lizo or something like that to do you think there's a degree of like men aren't given a space right now to really like have conversations about the pressures they face to have a certai

n body and a certain appearance I mean there's a lot of pressures I believe faced with beauty standards as well that really and it hasn't I don't think it's really yeah exploded yet as far as like they're being a Liberation there so maybe there's also a degree of like holding on because they don't have yeah like maybe they're jealous of the freedom that women are starting to experience yeah we know that firsthand because I have my son is Lily's brother is gay and and he uh he he is so envious of

Lily and all the role models that she has and doesn't feel that he has the same and that's something that we want to bring out in this series interesting so that's yeah yeah and the whole pyramid breaks down right or or or or the whole system is is is sort of threatened right if women love their bodies no matter what their bodies look like well a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money right and anytime that people that that there's that threat I think there there are you know people who

want to hold on to that system and even for men like what we would call an eating disorder for for a woman if you go to your local gym like you'll probably find a lot of the same characteristics a different and so a lot of of men are fed these books which you know once I went on a deep di of just like the most popular books for men and it's very regimented it's very precise and specific um and so and so men are holding on to that for themselves too I think right a lot of pressure so much pressu

re PR yeah yeah I have I have Les less compassion for it though I do I should I should have more compassion for men who have a problem with their bodies why why I mean let me be clear there are men that I love that have Justin being yeah that acknowledges he has body dysmorphia yeah and it's been something he's worked through now this is a guy that most people say is the statue of men but do I think it affects men the same way it affects women it does not do I think it has um you can have differ

ent sizes of men that are powerful in in the world and that aren't viewed and judged on their beauty or their bodies to be successful in life it does not affect men the same way as women so to have the conversation at the same time is a little bit uncomfortable for me and it's not to not to honor if my son is dealing with something physically that I don't want to honor it and oh my god let's talk about this and I want you to feel good in your skin and all the things but if you compare it if a wh

ite man Compares his struggle at the same time to that of a black man about going up the ranks it's like I don't know if that's the right time for it although you struggle and I want to hear hear your story um so I don't want to deflect from the from the experience that women face right that are different than men it it has much more W wide ranging consequences and it's not anecdotal right we know even in the data like according to academic research a plus-sized woman the effect on her income wi

ll be much more dramatic than a plus-sized like a like being plus-sized will impact how much money you make and the salary and and the position right um that that that you'll be in so I I think you're right that there's a big difference um but L I'm so curious I know there's so many people who are listening it's very hard to find anyone who accepts their body fully no matter what it looks like so how did it impact your life like you know and particularly with with like dating and and and stuff l

ike that and your everyday life and your relationships with before you answer that to Liz because I want you to answer that because that's important I just want to say something before you answer if you don't mind so I am more than a black man I'm a man that has a lot of things to say in the world that has nothing to do do with my skin color and it should not be the the the responsibility of everyone that has dark skin to have to talk about race but I one that can't the fact that we're talking a

bout something has to do with body and you're the one amongst us that is saying that we're referring to as plus-size and had to accept their body in a way differently than maybe you you or me and the fact that you have to carry that and talk about it is unfair and should not be your responsibility I'm sorry for get emotional it's true it should not be but thank you for being one in the world that can talk about it because so many are struggling with it and can use a voice like yours that is in t

his market and experience so I'm honoring you for being one that can talk about this very thing that should not have to be your responsibility that's so that's very kind of you that's very so with with that please answer Liz's question yeah and and just I wasn't also like I'm I am more and I and I promised it but I don't accept my body and I I think your history with this show and what it's shown you right you have this unique understanding of it having having interviewed all of these different

people and so I'm I'm curious how you know what were those takeaways that were um you know really impacted you yeah um yeah I'm also more than happy to talk about it and that's very kind of you did that have that kind of empathy and yeah but um you choked me up too yeah I I don't even know what to call myself I don't I don't know what how to refer to myself I'm like am I curvy am I plus siiz what does that mean what is anything like compared to other PE I know that I like in you know hold like s

kinny privilege compared to like other people like I know you know I know Everything's Relative so as like what what did my healing like Journey kind of look like like yeah just C you know again I it I'm sure it took there were many different learnings and different moments in in doing the show where you're like wow you know but but yeah what for for someone who's listening who's like I I hate my body uh what I yeah I mean so like there were some there were definitely like some early very format

ive people that we interviewed for this series that like just had a very very profound impact on me all one is someone named Naomi shimada who everyone should look up she's amazing she's a she was a I guess plus plus size I don't know she was an inbetween model I think there's no good language for this stuff well it's also a lot of quotequote plus siiz models Camp don't fit into the right they're she was too thin to be a plus-sized model yeah but not skinny enough to be a straight siiz model eve

rything's in air quotes for those of you are listening I just remember like when she took off you know she took off her clothes and I just saw her she just had such a presence with her body and like when she took off her clothes and her stomach had a few like roles in it you know which is always like the worst when you're struggling with your body means you're like um and then she answered like one of the last questions we asked her we said what is your favorite part part of your body which is o

ne of the questions we ask um everyone that we interview and she said my mouth and she said it's because all my favorite things happen in my mouth like I eating and then she said eating and kissing both are in in my mouth and so those are my fav and I was just like like you know you know just like the the idea that like eating is good and we need to eat to like it's one of the most like pleasurable joyful experiences of life and something that we should be really grateful that we get to do every

day instead of like thinking about it as this thing that we should be controlling and freaking out about and like trying to minimize there were moments like that individual people that we were interviewing where just they just embodied a comfort in in themselves that was so like sexy I was like you're so she's so sexy like and then I started to think well if I can think she's sexy I can think I'm sexy if I just like can embody myself in the way that she does basically just started to realize th

at if you embrace the thing that you're told to deny or suppress or whatever you can kind of like transform it into the thing it that is the most beautiful you so it was that and then I started to like do this exercise with myself where I would just like stare at my body in the mirror or have my mom she take pictures of me like in my underwear that was basically like my way of like trying to re just reprogram my brain because growing up I think I always was trying to hide like whenever there was

like bikini pictures at the beach with my friends I'd be like h no like i' I'd put a towel over myself you know and I tried to just flip that on its head and like stare at myself and my mom took pictures of me in my underwear and the first time I saw them I like balled like I freaked the [ __ ] out cuz positively or NE no negatively I was like this is disgusting like I'm like I'm disgusted by this it was really intense right you remember I've really freaked out but I just tried to do the thing

that I was like TR afraid of and also like yeah hiding from and recondition myself to get like used to it kind of as time went on and she would take more pictures of me more pictures of me I would just start to like them and I'd start to like be like Oh I'm like I just got used to it and then I started to feel like it was beautiful in its own way um so that was another thing so now when you're on the beach and you take the same photo and you're bikin with your friends do you take it and like sta

nd confidently in it I think I like it depends on the day like I think there's Still Moments where the little like inner child comes up and is still feeling the way I used to feel and then there's other moments where I'm more like unapologetically confident and I think it kind of like varies and so I feel like I got to a point where like had really like I was really self-accepting and then in the pandemic like I think I gained like 10 or 15 pounds like I was the same weight for like8 to 10 years

and then I think I gained like 10 or 15 pounds and the voice came back that like I had kind of that was like you did something wrong you failed like something it's your fault I didn't think I actually changed anything about my like what I ate or like cuz my whole thing is I also tend to feel more like which maybe this is bad but like when I'm taking good care of my body I start I I these days I'm like whatever it looks like as long as I'm taking care of it I don't care well that brings up actua

lly something for me that I wanted to ask which was um there's a spectrum let's just say because there are people that are could be too thin healthwise right um and people that are too heavy healthwise for their heart or things of that nature we're not saying one should not be mindful of their weight if it's a harm to their heart or their vitals in some way just as you should not be too skinny because you don't have the strength to carry yourself and be strong minerals and vitamins you need yeah

does that come up at all and I would imagine more with plus-size women who are accepting and then you get a lot of people saying well it's that healthy and you're supposed to be this you know whatever I mean I can't speak for anyone else's experience with this but for me personally like it was he I've like part of the reprogramming was noticing that I I exercise almost every day I jog I hike I enjoy feeling good from what I eat so I'm not none of it's extreme for me I'm not like the healthiest

person in the world but I just noticed it didn't have to do with that necessarily for me like for me my body just is how it is like for me when I was like when I was dieting as a kid and like I would basically eat like 400 calories a day for like months on end and exercise at like 6:00 a.m. before school like intensely on the treadmill and I was like 160 lb at my skinniest so like 160 lb I feel like at that time still sounded like really heavy like I don't know on the heavier side from what I gr

ew up thinking was like what a girl's weight should be which is so insane that we think there's like a weight so I when I was like 160 lbs which was my skinny I lost my period right so I I didn't look anorexic like you I didn't look like what the stereotype of someone who is not eating looks like but I basically was barely eating and and still had some like meat on my bones I still I looked healthy I looked probably what one would think is like healthier than from the standard but it wasn't heal

th I would didn't get my period for months from that lifestyle whereas now I'm eating regular you know what I probably should be eating so there was just a lot of Shifting of like yeah there's definitely not a like blanket synonymous Health equal skinny thing than we've definitely been taught that there is so we need a system we need a new Society we need something that's look different in in x amount five years 10 years 20 whatever it is our new generations where this is not anything well the t

hing is it's there's common health with with with so many things too I mean our our our videos are point out every I mean that body body size and everything is just one part I mean it's we deal with gender and race and age and mental health and physical health and abilities and I mean every single solitary thing we we can expose or get our hands on so it's it's all problematic it's all problematic kind of getting worse right you know we've never talked about OIC on this podcast um about what OIC

do you know what that is not a clue okay well zic there's this new drug that a lot of celebrities are are are taking but also the the general population is taken and it's a a weight loss drug but PE there are a lot of people who don't have uh quote unquote weight problems or weight issues and people are being very Cy about it um you know celebrities who are who are probably on it are are are not saying that they're on it and so there's a whole debate about isn't this the thing that people are s

upposed to take for rid uh uh diabetes diabetes yeah diabetes exactly and and there's these reports uh you know which are pretty recent coming out of Facebook and uh social media platforms that eating disorders for for young girls and young women right and there's an increase in in the the amount of young girls who are going in for eating disorder treatment so yeah I'm curious as you're creating something that is really going against all of this but you're also seeing sort of the environment get

ting worse in many respects yeah how do you view all this those things one of our big goals and drives right now is to get this message out beyond the choir that's you know and and and that's what we're working on like behind the scenes like we have you know an incredible dedicated beautiful you know audience and uh and they're smart and they're amazing and they get it and you know it increases but it really needs to go Way Beyond the choir couple questions tell us two things that you love about

your mama I love that she is always willing to look at herself and grow and that she she has the spirit of a 16-year-old she she doesn't bite into the idea that you're not always on like a growing changing like shedding journey of your old self like she just has such a um empowering way that she like views living it's it's yeah she doesn't give up ever doesn't give up what are two things you love about your daughter two yeah I know there's 100 but just share two two of the things well she's my

hero she's my Shiro she's I don't know just her definitely in the body image area and journey she's I I absolutely I she's changed my life she's made me she's turned me inside out she's made me see everything differently she's made me love myself more because of how much she loves herself and yeah so that's huge the second one tell her I love your yeah just your love of I don't even know where to start your love you're just your competence Your Capacity your dedication you've put a lot of things

on the back burner at a very young age for something much bigger than yourself yeah that's major I really really um admire that so much and I'm really excited right now for you to be able to do less of that and to really enjoy the rewards of it all and and and I love and I'm loving seeing you starting to do that and yeah I love you for all that and I'm inspired by you for that thanks I hope that makes sense I don't know I don't know where to start it makes so much sense I love it I love to hear

parent and child tell each other and hear things we did what's underneath side by side so you can if you desire go take a look at that video so we always uh and every episode by asking the same question what does it mean to be man enough to you what what what what does that mean um to be vulnerable and authentic about who you are no matter where you're at on your journey beautiful yeah I was going to say just to to be yeah just vulnerable and willing to face yourself willing to be wrong willing

to be wrong willing to be wrong yeah willing to be wrong yeah wtw wtw I love it I love that so many times people answer and we rarely hear what is even from men even from the brute men it's like what does be manad enough rarely do we here to be strong to be the protector to be not the those aren't important things for all of us to be I don't think it's exclusive to men for sure but um it's normally things that are like why don't we just listen to our own answers I'm gonna add to that I think we

ar a skirt wear a dress okay that's another conversation we some nail polish like that's really like free yourself really really really free yourself because it's whoever said that you can't do that why can why can why can women yeah why can why can we wear a suit wear a pants like why can't you do whatever you want M and still be man enough yeah be free as be as free as women wouldn't we say though that it would mean I have no interest in wearing makeup or or nail polish that doesn't mean that

I'm not willing to do that's something that you want to do then feel free to do so yeah to just be free to be who you want yeah and maybe question or investigate double check that that's something you don't actually want to do or whether that's uh that's some fun you might be missing maybe maybe thank you so much you really vulnerable and I know a lot of of people are going to benefit from many yeah how candid you've been in these conversations I think it's going to be so beneficial the fact tha

t you guys are partnering with us and doing something specifically for men the fact that you're on this and so many of our listeners are indeed men and they get to be a part of the conversation that they may have not otherwise tuned into something um is really important thank you for doing that with us you're welcome thank you for having us thank you for doing all the great work that you do and thank you for caring about this conversation we appreciate it love it Liz Jamie let's have him back ag

ain yes part two part three part four part part three um so we're gonna wrap it up here um Liz where can they find us if they want to hear more episodes they can find us on YouTube where they can watch these incredible outfits that we're all wearing except for Jamie um no no you he did dress up for you this is Jamie dressing up by the way no it's like you look great you always look great you always look great um this is me dressing up nor nor airt like a dress shirt yeah yeah no he like cares lo

ng as it's you yeah yeah yeah exactly that's all that matter I was like I mean we have two people that are like talking about style like you like how how do I style like them so yeah check us out on YouTube you can also uh listen to us wherever you listen to your podcast it's been a pleasure to be with both of you thank you again uh for those those of you that like this episode um come back listen to some more and in the meantime I am Jamie Heath I'm L blank and this is [Music] [Music] man nah