Priyanka Chopra Jonas on body shaming, social media and pay parity - BBC World Service

Priyanka Chopra Jonas wears many hats. She's  an actress, a producer and a businesswoman. She came into the spotlight after winning  the Miss World pageant in the year 2000, went on to become a successful Bollywood star. Now she's perhaps the only person from India to have made a real space for themselves  in the entertainment industry in the West. She's one of the BBC's 100 women this year. And we're going to talk to her  about her career and activism. Priyanka Chopra Jonas. Thanks  very much f

or speaking to the BBC. You're obviously a successful star in two  countries on two continents. But when you were growing up, that was a very different world.  When people asked you what do you want to be, what did you say and at what point did you  feel that the canvas could be as big as this? No, I never thought the canvas could  be as big as this. This was not ever a aim or ever even a thought. I came from  a family of doctors, physicians, military. Most of my family has been in the service.

My  father and my mother both were in the military, so it wasn't a realistic ambition at that time. I come from a small town in India. My parents, both highly progressive, always pushed me  towards whatever dream I wanted to have. So every year I would have a different dream.  Sometimes I wanted to be a homemaker. Sometimes I wanted to be an engineer. I don't know, but it  was never entertainment, that was never realistic. But I got into entertainment when I was 17 and  after that life just... I

kept looking at the next rung of the ladder. And then slowly I  looked back and I was like 60 feet above. You became Miss World at a really  young age, at the age of... I don't even know what it meant. And it appeared to be, there's been lots of  dramatic changes in your life, but it was probably the first one and possibly the most dramatic one.  Do you think beauty pageants can be empowering? See, this is a very convoluted, complex,  complex question. I think that the equity on physical beauty

when it comes to  women are defined predominantly by the male gaze and that makes it confusing. You know that ‘Oh my gosh, your waist is not the right size’ or ‘your height is not the right  size’ or ‘you look a certain way that makes you beautiful and that doesn't make you beautiful’. So that being judged by the male gaze and the beauty standards that have been  created by patriarchal norms because women have for a very long time lived  as secondary citizens. That's hard. But when it came to m

e, my pageant, it gave me  a springboard that I probably wouldn't have had. So individualistically for me, now as I look  back in retrospect, I don't think I would ever be a part of a pageant now, this 40 year old me. But at that time it was very, very empowering for a small town girl on a massive stage, with  96 contestants being viewed around the world. You know, it just felt like wow, my  life has suddenly changed. The cameras were like that and now it's all on me,  so that was a very empower

ing feeling. But more than that it was a springboard  to the entertainment business, which I don't think I would have ever had  or chosen if that hadn't happened to me. So you know you said if you had to go back  as the person you are now you wouldn't. Why? I just don't want competition like that. I don't  want to now, at my age, I don't want to be judged for my body type or if I can give a quick-witted  answer in 60 seconds while the dong is going. There are complexities around pageants  and th

ey can be highly empowering, but there's a lot that needs to  change for them to be that way. So winning that pageant gave you the foot in  the door, so to speak, in Bollywood. But it wasn't immediate acceptance or success. It’s  an industry in which even today I would say to a large extent the notion of beauty has got  to do with you know, the colour of your skin, a certain body shape. Were you, did you  ever feel like you were body shamed? Oh absolutely, I was called black cat, dusky. What  do

es even dusky mean? In a country of all dusky people? I mean we're literally brown in India  but we still have so much equity on light skin. And of course, that comes from our colonial  past. It comes from, you know, it's not even been 100 years that we've shared the British Raj. So we still hold on to I think what we were made to feel subliminally, and it is up to us and  our generation to be able to cut those ties and change it for the next generation so that  they don't inherit the equity on

light skin. They don't inherit the gender equality  that we probably thought was normal. I thought it was completely normal and absolutely  OK to sit for hours and hours on set while my male co-actor just took his own time. Decided whenever he wanted to show up on set is when we would shoot. It was normal, you know, when fairness commercials came by and it was a really big shiny  brand. It was normal for actors, male and women, to say: ‘Oh, wow, I have glowy white skin now.’ There was nothing wr

ong around it. When I was 21, 22, I did think that I was dark skinned. I did think that I was not pretty enough. I did think that I would have to work a lot  harder even though I thought I was probably a little bit more talented than my co-actors who  were lighter skinned. I thought that was right. I thought that because it was just so normalised  so I think as I grew up I saw things in my career that I didn't even know were right or wrong and  I had to be educated and learn along the way. You s

tudied in the US. You've written in  your book about how you faced racism then, but that wasn't the only time.  Almost two decades later, I think you also faced racism again when  your first song released in the US. Did it hurt as much both times? And what was  different about how you dealt with it? Well, I think the racism is prevalent  wherever we go, and I think that when I was younger I didn't have the mental equipment  to be able to deal with how that made me feel. I felt smaller. I felt in

visible.  I felt like I didn't deserve to be treated the same way as everyone else. Because I thought that that's what my reality was when I was in school. This is like  14,15. You know, you're an adolescent in America, and I felt like: ‘Oh my gosh, maybe  being different does make me less than.’ But as I grew up, I saw that  I'm actually, I'm a lucky one. That you know, yeah sure I faced  racism, people called me names or you know, said mean things to me. But people around the world get killed

for it, for the colour of their skin,  and I count myself as the lucky one, part of the lucky few that are able to stand up  for themselves and have a voice for themselves. You've also been very vocal about the pay gap,  and let's talk about that for both the industries that you're a part of. But let's start with  Bollywood. What's been your experience of that? I've never had pay parity in Bollywood. I've done  60 something movies I think, but I've never got paid the same amount as my male co-ac

tor. I just about after 22 years of working now finally in my show, Citadel, finally  had that, but that took 22 years. And when you say you didn't have pay  parity, I mean how different was it? I would get paid about 10% of my male co-actor. Wow. It's large, substantially large, and  so many girls still deal with that. And I'm sure I will too if I worked  with a male co-actor now in Bollywood. So that was my next question. Has  it changed at all or is it changing? It's changing, but I don't thi

nk it's changed. I think even if I do that now, if I worked in a movie with a male co-actor as a  co-lead, I mean, I'll let you know when I do a movie like that because I'm  going to do that as a social experiment. But I don't think I would get the  same renumeration as a male co-actor. And is Hollywood any different? Well, it's the first time it's happened  to me has happened in Hollywood, so I don't know going forward because this  was my first show with someone as a co-lead in Hollywood, afte

r 10 years of working in  Hollywood, I'm finally doing lead parts. It took a really, really long time.  A lot of pavement pounding to be able to get roles that in a mainstream way. And I always wanted to be a part of mainstream entertainment, whether that was in Bollywood  or Hollywood. So it takes a long time anyway. But it took a really, really long time for  me to be able to get to a part where I am doing leading roles and then to be  able to command that kind of parity. But yeah, I've seen t

hat there. I just don't know going forward if it will continue or not.  I'll keep you posted on that one too. You know, one of the things I've  heard and it was said by a man, is that women don't get paid as  much as men because women don't ask. No, that's not true. We've asked,  we've asked many, many times. My generation of female actors have definitely asked. It's been conversations and I know that because a lot of my colleagues are my friends and we've  talked about it. That their representa

tion... because girls are a little bit afraid that  they lose work if they are troublesome. That's something, that's another thought process  that exists in I think not just Bollywood, but in any patriarchal culture that, girls  should just be easy to work with. Always be smiling, pleasant. They should never  complain. And I was, I behaved like that for a very long time till I kind of found my own footing  and I was kind of OK with doing smaller movies that I shouldered on my own shoulders and n

ot  having to cater or pander to the male actors or their needs, and whatever their diva behaviour. And then I kind of found my own voice and said, you know what? It's OK to do a smaller film  rather than stand for that kind of treatment. So I don't know how much it is changing, but  girls have definitely asked and not got it. Alongside her acting Priyanka Chopra Jonas  has worked with the UN Children's Fund for over 15 years. We followed her during  her trip to Lucknow in northern India, meetin

g young girls and  students as part of her role. You're a UNICEF goodwill ambassador.  What does that role mean to you? When you're a public person, that's what  the public consumes, right? Because they're interested in seeing where I am, where I'm going. So I feel like that's where I find my purpose is if I can use the platform that I have  when I arrive at a place like this, and I'm talking about the initiatives and  the problems these children face, maybe the people who consume me will also c

onsume their  message. This is the greatest job of my life. When you're at these places,  you hear very difficult and distressing stories. Then you often  have to go back to a world which is very different, in showbiz. How  do you manage that dichotomy? You kind of don't. I think I need therapy, I think I do. I'll still not forget one time I was doing a UNICEF trip in Africa and I had  to fly back straight and I went to the Emmys and I remember I was sitting in the hair and makeup  trailer and t

his was like two days later and I saw these fabulous gowns and jewels and diamonds  and stuff that have come for me to wear and I just couldn't help it and I just started crying  and I was like look at the dichotomy of my life. I mean, there's a world in which I don't  need to do this. This is not my job, but I do it because that's my purpose.  That's the purpose that I have found. It's very difficult to go back into a normal life  when you see the kind of human suffering that I have witnessed w

ith UNICEF around the world. But I like to focus on the hope. I like to focus on the many, many volunteers and people that have  come together to better these children's lives. I'm going to take it back a bit to your life  again. You know when you went to the US you were a huge Bollywood star here, known, loved,  adored. And then you went to this country trying to break into an industry there, and you've  written about how there were rooms where you didn't know anyone, where there were parties, 

where you were not part of the A list set, where you were in the other section.  What was that experience like? Humbling. The one thing about being an actor  in Bollywood is female or males...the men enjoy a lot more of it, but women do too. You're kind of told or made to feel like there's nothing greater than  you when you walk into a room. And that comes from the immense love that  the Indian people have for Hindi movies. The audience loves Hindi movies and  they love the stars that are in th

em. So when you become a Hindi movie actor,  you kind of feel like it's all about me. You know, I'm the greatest thing that to  have ever happen. Because I've made it to the eyes and the minds and the hearts of  millions and billions actually, of people who watch Hindi movies around the world. It's a really powerful feeling and then when you walk out of your comfort  zone and you go into another country you have to kind of remind yourself that:  ‘Oh, that that's not a fact. That's not true.’ Jus

t because there's a section of people that love  me, that doesn't necessarily mean that Hollywood is just waiting for me to make movies right. Like:  ‘Oh yeah Priyanka, we were just waiting for you to arrive to cast you in the next big movie.’ It doesn't work that way and I was like: ‘OK alright, this is what it's gonna take.’ I  kicked off my shoes, I got rid of my entourage, I would go into meetings by myself. I  would introduce myself. I would take my showreel. I would say this is the work I'

ve  done. This is the work I'm willing to do. I worked with acting coaches. I worked  with dialect coaches, did auditions, got rejected, cried, went back for another one. You know I did the hustle that I needed to do to  make it in any new industry, but I had to let go of what I thought were my achievements just  because I wanted to penetrate a new industry. Well and now you've accomplished  many firsts. For South Asians, you were the first South Asian lead actor for  network TV program. You've

been the first South Asian I think on multiple international magazine  covers. Now the work that's coming your way, is there a reflection in that that  South Asians will be accepted as actors playing whatever role? Or is it still  very much that you're being typecast? Well, a little bit of both if I have to be  honest. I mean, I think maybe I've built certain amount of credibility where I know people  in the industry, I'm doing interesting work. But I think that it's really hard to be  South Asi

an and Indian. I think that we are finally finding our collectiveness together,  we are banding together, we're standing by each other and that's what it's going to take. What I think it really is going to take is, don't try and pull each other down. We  need to band together, and I'm seeing that, but there's still a long way to go. I think we also have to empower young actors to come and feel powerful  enough to come into mainstream, but also call out the studios for not casting Indian  actors

or South Asian actors as main leads. You get immense attention in India. You now also  get immense attention in the US, as far as your personal life is concerned. Also, you're married  to somebody who's been in the public spotlight, your husband, Nick Jonas, and the attention  is both positive and negative. Have you drawn boundaries? Have you ever felt at any point  it’s too much? I need to stop social media. I do, I went on a social media break myself. I  took off Twitter from my phone. It can

be a lot sometimes because you can just never be good  enough on social media no matter what you do, there will always be people that will say  you did this wrong. You wore this wrong. You didn't say something about something. You  should have said something about something. And it's just like you can never  please everyone and I realized that very early in my career as a public  person. When I was younger in my 20s, I really needed everyone to love  me because I was a public person. I was a new

entertainer. I was like why? Why is  this person hating me for this reason? Or why is this being written about me for this reason? But I quickly realise when you're a public person you are consumed by people, you are  literally dinner table conversation. I realise that the only way to protect my  sanity and myself was to surround myself by people that are genuinely happy for me,  that genuinely love and care about me. And my support system, whether that's my family,  my friends, my team is very

strong so that I don't need my validation from people, I don't need my  validation from the comments on social media. I'm not working every day to be  famous. I'm working to make movies, to make art for people to watch what I do and  the by-product of that happens to be fame. So once I made that distinction and  that bifurcation, I think it became a lot easier for me to live a normal life  and to just be a normal human being. In India, Priyanka has faced criticism for not  commenting on domesti

c issues while being vocal on global issues surrounding women. She didn't  respond to a question about the criticism. In recent years other actors in India have stayed  away from commenting on social and political matters in the country, fearing reprisal. You support a lot of different causes through UNICEF and otherwise as well. What  would you say is closest to your heart? The future matters to me a lot. I'm not  a head of state. I'm not a politician, I'm an entertainer and I can't change laws

. I  can't create laws, but I have influence so I can speak about the things that I have the ability to  speak about, things that I feel like I can change. So I think the future of the next generation  or the children that come after us has been very important whether that is making  sure that they have access to education, understand their own rights. Again, I live in America now where... we're going backwards. Women's  rights are literally being criminalized, for women's right to her own body,

and in India  the Supreme Court passed a decision where it's not, where a woman has autonomy in her own right. Now if you think about it, that makes no sense, because you would think that a country  like India would actually... patriarchal, would not be able to do that, but we're seeing  that in America, so it's like we're living in a time where we're moving forward 100 steps  but we're moving back at the same time. But all I think about is what am I doing  every single day? Can I be a good per

son and make sure that I create actions within my  own life that maybe have a butterfly effect? And actually you talked about  progress and that is the theme of, it's a hopeful theme of BBC 100 women this year Yay, thank God. We are in a couple of years where  you've got teenage girls not being allowed to go to school in Afghanistan. You've got the protests happening in Iran. We know that post-pandemic, the number of  women, more women than men are out of work. And I know I just rattled off a lo

ad of negatives  there, but that's why from someone like you, are you optimistic? Because we've gone backwards  in many ways in the last one or two years. That’s so scary. But are you optimistic about the growth,  about the future of women’s rights? I think we have gone backwards. We've also gone  forward. Where we are seeing five steps back, we're also seeing young girls standing  up for themselves and their colleagues. We're also seeing women banding together like  we've never seen before. We'

re also seeing women standing up for their rights, and we're  also seeing men who are being allies to women. The pendulum shifts in many, many  directions before it settles, right? So it goes into extremes before it settles. So here I am, hoping that progress will come because the pendulum is moving  in such different directions, but women ourselves are finding our power. We always had a voice, we just weren't allowed to use it. But now we are using it so I'm  hoping that that will create the pr

ogress and change that we really need to see women have. And today in Lucknow when I was travelling I saw so many women that never even knew that they  had the potential of being earning members of their families, earning young girls who were  supposed to be married off at 12, 13, who have banded together, suddenly got information that  it's illegal in my country for child marriage. And they have fought against other girls who  are being forced into child marriage. So when you see an example of

young girls, of young kids  taking the power of their rights into their hands, that's when I think that we are seeing  progress and that's me being hopeful. Well, thank you so much for speaking  to the BBC, to BBC 100 women Thank you so much for asking  me amazing questions.