Scottish Conservative Party Debate: Reconsidering Highly Protected Marine Areas - 3 May 2023

of business is a debate on motion 8766 in the name of Rachel Hamilton on reconsidering highly protected Marine areas I'd be grateful of members who wish to speak where to press their request to speak buttons and I call on Rachel Hamilton to speak to and move the motion can I have Miss Hamilton thank you presiding officer and I move the motion in my name today's debate on highly protected Marine areas is a rare opportunity for the parliament to agree on something we should all agree on standing u

p for Coastal and fishing communities last month the first Minister outlined his priorities for Scotland he spoke for almost half an hour he failed to mention fishing or farming once however it is never too late to start listening admit your mistakes and go back to the drawing board in opening this debate I appeal directly to SMP msps representing Coastal communities and to other colleagues who want to see Scottish fishing thrive in the future anyone who rigidly follows the party line when they

know the damage that these plans could do will owe an explanation to their constituents Scotland's fishing industry and Coastal and Rural communities this is not about siding with me and my colleagues on these benches it's about siding with the Scottish fishing industry we should be proud of this industry which contributes over half a billion pounds worth to our economy each year on top of the challenges that they are already facing with spatial squeeze they are contending with a fishing ban tha

t threatens to destroy their livelihoods for good it is clear to them as it is to us the proposed fishing ban goes too far with too little evidence and we know how this came about On A Dark Day in a dishonorable agreement signed in August 2021 Mary mcallen's Amendment today shows that this government is not only failing to listen to the concerns of our fishermen and Coastal communities but they've turned their back on science and certainty it makes a mockery of the consultation process by taking

for granted the fact that hpmas will be designated Popeye Ewing must have Fisherman's forearms to have ripped this document apart last night believe me I've tried the SMP motion potentially misleads the parliament in suggesting the plans are in line with the EU when in fact Scotland's already gone over and above their own MPA targets they cite evidence from one area and entirely ignore contradictory evidence from another the Butte house agreement has much to answer for it rides roughshod over t

he livelihoods of hard-working fishermen with a blatant disregard for the communities that they support and the science around the matter that we are discussing today the arbitrary figure of 10 of Scottish waters for highly protected Marine area designation has been plucked from the sky with no scientific backing or ecological justification to underpin it the first Minister insisted that the government would not impose these policies on communities that don't want them now that line has changed

to vehement opposition even if that could be defined or measured it is evident that the government is moving the goal posts there is no explanation of the problem that this these proposals are trying to address or the goal it is trying to achieve we don't even know how effective the existing MPA network is in supporting and maintaining biodiversity in our Waters there's been no impact assessment on how these plans would affect our Coastal communities there's been no feasibility study into how th

ese areas could be implemented and enforced presiding officer my colleague Murdo Fraser has just discussed a recent inquiry we learned that former ministers senior civil servants and special advisors believe Scottish government decision making is rushed unclear and unstructured as we saw with the gender recognition Reform Bill presiding officer we are here again to describe this policy as rushed unclear and unstructured would be far too generous but on the other side of this conversation the fis

hing sector have taken their time to construct clear coherent arguments against these proposals nonetheless I think it is important to say that I absolutely understand the need to protect our marine environment I'm certain that this is another point on which we can all agree yes cabinet secretary I'm grateful to Rachel Hamilton for taking the intervention in March her colleague Therese Coffey the conservative Secretary of State for the environment called hpma's a vital Way Forward she subsequent

ly introduced them in England how does she reconcile that with her remarks Rachel Hamilton the difference between the way that that your government are approaching it cabinet secretary is that you are not bringing on the coastal communities with you this document is a paper exercise that is an online process that has had no consultation with any Coastal communities at all the difference between the UK government approach is that defra consulted with Coastal communities and and the fishermen even

agreed on the sites that were proposed no one gets this more than fishermen presiding officer because without good fish stocks their businesses would struggle as the former Finance secretary said seventh Lifeline of fishing and you undermine The Wider economy of coastal communities she is right and this is a clear sign of the need to work with fishermen on these issues instead of imposing arbitrary unevidenced restrictions on their activities with sustainable fishing practices our fleet has see

n fish stocks rebound over the last 20 years Place hake haddock have all seen their populations grow considerably in this time because of their own sustainable practices and that is down to the hard work of those fishermen who know RC's best not the result of top-down desktop policies as we heard last night in Beatrice wishart's debate our Coastal communities have asked for the Scottish government to reconsider these plans the fishermen in these vulnerable rural fragile Coastal communities need

to be heard today with this motion the Scottish Parliament is presented with a clear choice we can stand behind these communities go back to the drawing board and work with them rather than against them to protect our seas or we can press ahead with these unevidenced unwanted and hugely damaging plans we should be under no Illusions these communities are clear that a fishing ban is an existential threat not just to their jobs but to their way of life and we have an opportunity today to send them

a message that we have listened and we will support them and we have a plan to do that and we want to work with this government at all parties to make sure we can protect them and our oceans and I believe our amendments reflect this I believe that the amendments to the emotion from labor and to the liberal Democrats showed their willingness to do this and I absolutely welcome their support to standing up for fishermen and I'm sure there will be others on the back benches who will also stand up

for their constituents too thank you thank you I now call on Mary McAllen to speak to and move Amendment 8766.3 up to five minutes cabinets thank you proceeding officer and I moved the amendment in my name and not having a great deal of time today I'm going to restrict my opening remarks on behalf of the government to what I think are the key issues in hand here firstly that it's an unavoidable truth that we are in the midst of a climate and nature emergency this Parliament recognized that when

every party proceeded to pass some of the world's most ambitious climate targets into law now erosions are a vital part of the emergency response that are needed Scotland's marine environment stores at least 5.6 billion tons of CO2 but Recent research is showing that the oceans are reaching their capacity to help us that's because of a number of issues including human impacts upon them if we don't protect our seas they will not be able to protect us for much longer and despite the the considerab

le progress that has been made to improve the state of our oceans the Scottish Marine assessment of 2020 shows that a number of species are in Decline the most recent assessment under the I will do in a sec at the most recent assessment under the UK Marine strategy so that across the UK 11 out of 15 indicators of good environmental status are being missed and I'll take an intervention from Finley Carson I appreciate the camera sector taking the intervention could you say exactly how Banning fish

ing will reduce greenhouse gases cabinet secretary uh Finley Carson may wish to use language such as Banning fishing the point is that we are in a consultation we're in the midst of a consultation which asks exactly about the principles of hpmes including how they are constituted and what features we may wish to uh we might wish to protect including blue carbon which would directly respond to your point but it's not just about carbon it's about ecosystems it's about species abundance all of whic

h are absolutely critical to equilibri in our natural worlds all of which is connected to the climate emergency so I would expect Finley Carson to understand that um and that that matters to me presenting officer and that matters most of all to the people who are economically socially and culturally connected with our seas and of course that brings me to my second point that it's an unavoidable truth that is we take the action that we have to take to respond to the climate emergency we have to d

o it in a way that's fair that's just that leaves no one and no Community behind and that's a task that I'm committed to it's a task that this government is committed to and it's one that we take very seriously indeed and that is why we have approached this really complex and emotive topic with as much democracy as we possibly can it's why being so early in the process the Scottish government has held no less than 40 stakeholder meetings both in the development of the consultation and sends them

to assist stakeholders in completing the same I'm sorry I don't have any more time to take interventions from the conservatives and the meetings that we held included Regional and Shore Fisheries groups the Scottish Fisherman's Federation uh the community's ensure Fisheries Alliance the Scottish Creole fishermen's Federation is why we met yesterday with msps it's why I've committed to meet with communities across the summer and it's why I reiterate my commitment to look very closely at the thou

sands of consultation responses that we have received and I commit myself to that without politicking without positioning which with regrets I'm afraid somebody's very much engaging with let's be clear every party in this Parliament was elected on a Manifesto commitment to Marine protection the conservatives stood on a Manifesto no I don't have time on the fridge the conservatives stood on a Manifesto commitment to hpma Pilots labor party stood on a Manifesto to include 20 of Scotland's Waters i

n highly protected Marine areas double what this Scottish government consultation uh proposed so I assume um presiding officer that we can agree that action is needed but I want to address in the time I have left I realize I'm thinking I'm afraid um the cabinet secretary that you are over time at this point let me just um I I cannot regrettably as we're very tight for time this afternoon um I now call on Rhoda Grant to speak to and move Amendment 8766.1 and thank you presiding officer I want to

start by expressing our disappointment at the Scottish government's Amendment the tune and the content don't stress demonstrate any understanding of the consternation felt by our Coastal communities let me be clear we are all concerned about their marine environment and protecting it none more so than those whose parents fish the Seas who themselves continue to fish and who wish to make sure that their children will be able to fish in the future as well in support of the government's proposals w

e often have quoted the example of landlash B but that example makes my point was not imposed on the community by the government it was fought for by the community by local people who know their Seas who fought hard for the powers the powers for which the Scottish government now seek to take credit it took them 13 long years to fight a system and get that protection it's also noticeable that Broadway is not so often quoted as an example presiding officer these MP hpma proposals seek to ban the m

ost sustainable form of fishery that we have and not static Gear boots they're small boats that fish in local Waters they can't move to other fishing grounds a very short Rachel Hamilton at Broad Bay the only species that's really left I believe is starfish it has caused Untold damage to the fishery there I think the other thing that can't help but leave us gasping up this proposal is that paddle boats and swimming can also be banned under these proposals it makes no sense at all we're also conc

erned that more and more Fisheries will be funneled into smaller areas that will end up overfished and it's really concerning that these proposals have been top down the first Minister give the commitment that they wouldn't be imposed on Coastal communities the Scottish government motion now says they will not be on imposed on communities that are vehemently opposed to them do they really want to see those communities demonstrate payment or possession what would that look like this is not a just

transition I already I'm hearing about boats going on sale and families preparing to move away as a direct result of this policy it's deeply damaging and given that these areas concerned are also subject to depopulation right now the uncertainty surrounding this is damaging local economies people can't invest Banks won't support them and their businesses may not have any future it's not just Fisheries that are involved as fish farming seaweed cultivation and harming harvesting the list is long

and many as well as including many businesses that depend on Marine tourism the waters that were sold on the cheap with no Community benefit will be exempt in order in order to protect foreign investors exempting them on their profits just choose the priorities of this government they don't care about small business one or two people businesses that are being put out of work work and forced to leave these small businesses are not being given any exclusions deciding officer I've never seen such a

backlash everyone I've spoken to in coastal communities are Furious it takes a lot to drive people to write songs it takes even more to make Donald Francis sing them do not underestimate the vehemence opposition to this I move the amendment in my name thank you I now call only MacArthur to speak to and move Amendment 8766.2 thank you um to appears that you were ages for a debate on HP amaze and then two come along in very quick succession can I start by again thanking those who took part in las

t night's debate led by my colleague Beatrice Wisher I I think it's sent the most unambiguous message about the strength of cross-party opposition to the government's proposed approach on HPM AIDS this is merely a reflection of course of the anger and in some cases Fury felt in Ireland and Coastal communities the length and breadth of Scotland so it's right we return to this subject again today and I thank Rachel at Hamilton for allowing us to do so the government's Amendment sadly is a rather p

redictable and vintage example of watery I mean brexit continues to cause great damage UK Tory government policies on skilled worker visas are indefensible the results Beth McDonald of the Scottish Fisherman's Federation is made clear whatever issues the industry has with brexit and labor rules these peel into insignificance of fishermen are banned from fishing the topic of the debate and today is the same as last night but the cast list looks a little different much like the hpme designation th

ose operating arguments felt to be damaging or potentially damaging to the butt house agreement are to be arbitrarily excluded so it is that Fergus Ewing and Cape Forbes find themselves confined to Port by the SMP wips office yet appropriately there's no evidence this forced tie up regime will provide any sort of protection for the S P Green government's policy on hpmes particularly when a student sees that were previously offered up by the first Minister and cabinet secretary are already being

redefined and diluted Hamza Youssef could not have been clearance they think he would not impose these policies on communities that don't want them a promise echoed by the cabinet secretary now we're told there needs to be quote vehement opposition whatever that means presiding obviously the lack of any prior discussion or consultation with stakeholders in the fishing aquaculture and other key sectors most directly affected is inexcusable it is seen government policy developed I don't have time

on purpose a little developed and consulted on over years upended and replaced by close door negotiations in Butte house between the s p and greens that's not evidence-based policy making it's not ministers being inclusive or accessible and it makes a mockery of any commitment this government professes to genuine Island proofing a point made in my Amendment which I move and damage is already being done as rude Grant said through heightened uncertainty and a collapse in confidence reaching agreem

ent on measures that might actually help protect our marine environment have been made more difficult to achieve and the government's handbrake turn undermines those in the fishing sector already leading efforts to manage protect and enhance stocks and biodiversity in my own alternate constituencies Fishers recognize their sector relies on healthy ecosystems and environment they've been working in partnership with academics environmental groups on a range of projects tagging brain crab trialling

technology and Crews to measure environmental variables such as salinity temperature light and current using cameras to understand interactions of cues with the seabed recording sightings of citations and seabirds carrying out a carbon order of Orton's Fleet precisely what we would want to see in the interest of our fishing sector the marine environment and our Island and Coastal communities let me finish with the words of Hannah fennel of ortney Fisheries Association who told me earlier this w

eek and I quote hpmes undermined the concept of environmental stewardship instead of punishing those who live near and work in the marine environment the government should be empowering communities and Fishers the knowledge Fishers hold should be seen as an asset and part of the solution to the twin climate crisis I could not agree more thank you thank you we moved to open debate speeches and I call on Edward Mountain to be followed by Karen Adam being an officer and I just like to say at the ou

tset I was taken by the call that I was on yesterday afternoon with many of the msps where we were asked for our opinions on each pmas a bit late not sure that it actually followed the advice that had been given and it was disturbing and it must have been disturbing to the minister that she heard from nearly all of the msps that the level of responses and the pure Venom in some of those responses had not been experienced by parliamentarians before not presiding obviously you will know as as I do

that many songs and folk songs that you hear are written either about heroes or villains now in this case we've had a folk song written the clearances again and it's not about heroes it's about villains and that's the way the Islanders view it now looking at the Highland and Islands msps I don't think there's any doubt that we on this side of the chamber understand it and I know labor understanding and I know the liberal Democrats get it I'm pretty sure the greens don't get it and I'm pretty su

re that some of the msps on the SMP benches get it we listen to Fergus Ewing last night and I'll come back to that he gets it and I think Kate Forbes gets it but what's clear is the other two Highlands and Islands msps Mary Todd and emerodic don't get it in fact I don't even see them in the chamber today perhaps because that's because they have taken the government Shilling so they don't have to respond or take part in this debate but they will pay for it at the next election of that there is no

doubt presiding officer yes I would take an intervention you just wish it thank you for Edward Mountain for taking the intervention he'll know of the United opposition by the whole of Scotland's Seafood sector two hpmas does he agree with me that these proposals are not only about the survival of fishing and aquaculture but also the very communities that rely on them absolutely they are and I'd like to thank at this stage Beatrice whitcott for enabling the debate last night it was really intere

sting because one thing that we must understand and I'm going to come on to it is the importance of those people who are employed in the local economy and live in the local economy not to have their livelihoods destroyed now presiding officer there's no doubt if you start a hair running it's difficult to stop it and that's exactly what this government has done with hpmas they have no clear idea how they're going to achieve their aims but they have a clear idea that they've got to get on with it

because the greens are telling them to do it they've got no clear idea how they're going to save the jobs of the fishermen but the greens don't care about that because to them those jobs are collateral damage and they are going to push on with a policy that to me is not based on the knowledge of those people who live and work in the environment who protected that environment who cherish that environment and have no wish to destroy it because it forms part of their livelihood yes I will take an i

ntervention cabinet secretary full to Edward Mountain for taking an intervention I just wondered if he would accept because I agree with him about the importance of the communities and right from the beginning I've been clear that this would have been developed hand in hand with them by a broad and deep consultation right at the beginning of this process how else does he think I could have more meaningfully engaged those communities who I have been so clear I care deeply about Edward Mountain he

r presiding officer I don't know if I'll get my time back from that but no that's not what the communities see the community TCC a centralized government pushing down from on top without listening to a word that they're saying and all I would say to the cabinet secretary if you're in doubt about that take your time come up to my office have a look at some of the emails that I've got I'm very happy to share them with you now presiding officer I know by taking interventions that I've actually ende

d my I'll have to end my speech early thank you very much I call Karen Adam to be called by Katie Clark thank you Poseidon officer and I want to firstly start by saying that I have had sincere and deep ponderings over this debate today and in fact over the last few weeks and I have had cause to really take time to reflect now my concerns around hpmas and the impact they will have on Fishers and Coastal communities across Scotland are well known to the Scottish government first and foremost howev

er I hope they are known to the Fishers across my constituency because representing Coastal communities of Hampshire and booking Coast is a great honor and one I do not take lightly and it's for this reason because I know sir that I wish at the outset to make this promise to them I promise I will never support a policy that would be to the detriment of the lives and livelihoods of the coastal communities across Scotland I was elected to be a strong voice for our Coastal communities and a steward

and an advocate of not just the people but also the land and the Sea and I will be just that our rural communities have been through a great deal over the last few years and as a member of the rural Affairs and Ireland's committee I've listened to some devastating testimonies about the impact of brexit on our farmers and Fishers the loss of EU funding as a result of the Reckless Tory brexit is just one example of the significant damaged imposed on our rural economies we place so much responsibi

lity for delivering Net Zero on our rural Industries and we must remember that our farmers and Fishers are also responsible for our food security yes I will get the time back check the member taking the invention but on brexit would they may not agree with me it's not brexit it's hell-bent on Banning fishing in a vast swaths overseas it's the greens and SMP that want to do that yeah I don't know I disagree with the members take on that and I will come to that later on my next the whole wretch ar

ound but come to this uh politics which is seem to be driven by popularity and that's not helpful to this debate and it's not constructive we do place a lot of burden and responsibility and they are responsible for a few security so if we place ever greater burdens on them we must ensure that we also provide the relative Financial human and yes legislative support Fishers have lost trust in politicians to deliver for them and quite frankly I don't blame them and this is a sorry result of being u

sed as a political football for so long and having their priorities consistently politicized now that brings me to the motion before us in the name of Rachel Hamilton are we really supposed to believe after everything the Tories have done over the last few years to bring our rural Industries to the brink and our economy to the knees that they are trustworthy custodians of our Farms Fisheries or natural environment need I say more than less trust Boris Johnson brexit and despite Tory indignation

in March it was announced that hpmes will be introduced South of the Border by the chori UK government the hypocrisy is astonishing yesterday Rachel Hamilton said that she would she is obviously opposed to hpmas but why does she stand on atori manifest a commitment in 2021 to implement pilot schemes of them to the Fishers listing at home be aware of this the cabinet secretary will be reassured that I do not intend to tear up any Motion in a fit of theatrics today although my colleague Rachel Ham

ilton did say that she'd like to see that the Scottish Parliament is not a place for amateur Dramatics it's a place where we debate discuss as reasonable Representatives the genuine needs of our constituents and of our country secretary for the constructive discussions thank you Miss Adam you must conclude at that point I call Katie Clark to be fooled by Jamie halcrow Johnson thank you presiding officer and has already been mentioned this afternoon of the Lamb lash no Tech Zone and having repres

ented Aaron it is clear that strong Marine protection can have support and buy-in from local communities the community of Alan's seabed trust Coast was founded in 1995 and laid successful Community campaigns to establish Scotland's personal take Zone the Scottish government has much to learn from the approach of course and indeed the pin sticking work carried out on Aaron to build community support for marine protection and I pay tribute again to Coast for the work they have done because without

buy-in from the local community Marine protection areas will not work and I hope that the Kaepernick secretary will accept that there have been significant mistakes in the handling of this policy to develop highly protected Marine areas um I will very briefly cabinet secretary I want to thank you for taking the intervention and for her contribution I'm just looking at the the forward that I put to the consultation closing lines that's why I want to hear what you think I want to take on board yo

ur concerns I want you to help shape the creation of these highly protected areas how does that not demonstrate that I care how Coastal communities feel critical approached the Scottish government has taken has caused upset in many communities who rely on the Seas causing concern to many who probably would never be affected by any proposals so I hope that the cabinet secretary will accept that it would be far preferable preferable for the Scottish government to have come forward with specific pr

oposals to restrict particular practices in defined areas and with a full and genuine consultation and evaluation process I don't think I'll get the time back so I apologize I won't take an intervention the approach however the Scottish government has taken has created maximum distress and anger the cabinet secretary rightly pointed out that we are in the middle of a climate and nature emergency and the backdrop is of course a significant decline in the marine environment and in many parts of th

e fishing industry and fishing stocks over many decades indeed the World Wildlife Fund report published in 2015 highlighted that worldwide the amount of fish in the oceans has halved since 1970 and indeed the report also highlighted that the populations of marine mammals and birds have fallen by 49 between 1970 and 2021 so I don't think anybody in this chamber refuses to accept the scale of the challenge of the damage to our oceans and the urgent need for Action to help regenerate marine ecosyst

ems indeed many parts of Scotland such as theirshire where I come from had significant fishing industries in the past with Coastal communities relying on the industry for jobs and livelihoods however what we've seen over many years for example with the removal of the coastal limit on bottom trawling in 1984 a significant damage to Scotland's sea bed habitats by policies from government and the use of high impact and unsustainable fishing plans practices no doubt have taken significant toll on ou

r seas yet these issues and indeed the use of high impact fixing message such as bottom trolling and and dredging remain unaddressed by the Scottish government and indeed more than 17 000 tons of fish is estimated to have been discarded by Scottish fishing boats in 2021 as a result of the the policies and the future catching policy is unlikely um to address these issues the Scottish government have failed to come forward with a sustainable fishing policy Community buy-in thank you and I called J

amie Halford Johnson to be followed by Aleister Allen thank you presiding officer and I'm delighted to speak in today's debate one which we'll be watched with interest and with real concern in coastal communities across my Highlands and Islands region can I thank all the individuals and organizations who have provided input into today's debate including many constituents who have been in contact and let me be very clear they are almost without exceptions strongly opposed to the Scottish governme

nt's plans and they represent communities from right across my region and I think it's important to listen to my constituents one of them Kate from dingwall Recently said of the government's plans that no other EU country has implemented hpmas and there is no evidence to demonstrate they actually achieve their aims she argued that they would have disproportionate social socio-economic impact on our Island and Coastal communities and that she couldn't understand why anyone in government thought i

t would be a good idea to take such a blanket approach well I hope Kate from Dingle will stand by those comments she made when campaigning for the SMP leadership and that she will stand up for our constituents and our Coastal communities today by voting against the Scottish government's shameful attempt to water down the Scottish conservative motion only by doing so will she send out that clear message that she opposes these SMP green proposals and I hope those other SMP colleagues who represent

Coastal communities will do the same they will know as well as I do the real anger and the government's plans have caused and the real fear for the future is causing in these often fragile communities and they will know that if they prioritize the deal with the greens over the future of their communities they will never be forgiven presiding officer these plans have been rejected right across the highlands and Islands Highland Council warned that they will stop vital economic activity in fragil

e remote and Rural communities and they reference concerns raised with them that makes comparisons between these proposals and the Highland clearances Islands Council said they believe that proposals could have an adverse economic and social impact on Orton's communities and they would strongly oppose the introduction of hpmas including by judicial means if necessary I apologize for cabinet secretary I just don't have time an orkney supply chain would be impacted too Julius Garrett or Garrett Br

others said the proposed hpmas would be devastating not just to the aquaculture and Fisheries sector in orkney but also to the hundreds of jobs in the supply chain which depend on these businesses in Shetland the Shetland Fisherman's association called the government's plans one of the most pressing threats facing all sectors of shetland's fishing feat and therefore shetland's entire Seafood economy Daniel Lawson of the SFA said shetlands fishermen have proven in the path that they are not oppos

ed to sensible conservation measures recognizing that strong fish stocks and healthy marine ecosystems are in their own interests and in The Wider interest of sustaining our fishing Community however proposals for hpmas are being driven by politics and pledges and are devoid of any environmental imperative or scientific backing Ruth Henderson of seafood Shetland said the aquaculture sector was already highly regulated and wardened Scottish government of disregarding the importance of the sector

to jobs and in providing nutritious food in pursuit of vacuous conservation headlines Tavi Scott once of this place and now some in Scotland said the hbma proposal risking jobs and investment going abroad how does that fit with a cabinet secretary's own claim that our seas must remain a sort of economic prosperity for the nation especially in our remote Coastal and Island communities presiding officers of this green SMP Coalition is pushing proposals which would decimate our fishing industry its

supply chain and our Coastal communities and so I urge all msps but particularly those Ms SMP msps from the highlands and Islands put your constituents first today not your government and their deal with the greens and at decision time reject the Scottish government's Amendment and back ours all those who care about our Coastal communities and their future must come together and said a clear message to the Scottish government they have got this very wrong and they must scrap their plan for hpma

s thank you I call Aleister Allen to be followed by Arianne Burgess presiding officer the fact that we have debated the same issue twice in this parliament in the space of 36 hours says something significant as indicated in the members to be last night I have never had to confront anything quite like the issue of Highly protected Marine areas before a policy to which to the best of my recollection literally every single person of the many in my Island community who have offered me a view is stro

ngly opposed as I mentioned last night even when I was showing a local primary school around the parliament recently the first thing the kids wanted to ask me about was hpmas that is a measure of where things have now reached in the western Niles at any rate presenting officer there is an undoubted need to address biodiversity loss in RC so I certainly do not make any case today for unrestricted fishing and I am aware that the Tories who had hpmas and their own election Manifesto are playing pol

itical games with their own motion today yet the problem with hpmas is that while only affecting 10 percent of our sea area we will not know for two years yet which 10 percent that is and in the meantime every Coastal Community in Scotland particularly those on the west coast not unreasonably has fears that it is going to be them the prospect of a virtually total ban on all fishing activity in any one of our most fragile communities would in fact disproportionately affect some of the very forms

of fishing which have the smallest environmental impacts in areas fished by smaller vessels like many of those in my own constituency there is little realistic Prospect of established fishing businesses or indeed aquaculture or fish processing businesses finding somewhere else to go to nearby I know that the scenario I described there is not what the government seeks the very encouraging torn struck by the first Minister and other ministers in recent weeks indicating the hpmas will not be impose

d on unwilling communities is very helpful and much welcomed locally the government Amendment today I would also acknowledge goes some way towards recognizing the fears that exist although I regret almost certainly not yet far enough for my constituents I realize why the government has to wait for the scrutiny of the consultation responses before it can commit to action but I can see locally what the government must themselves increasingly now suspect and that is the sheer depth of opposition th

at exists in many Island communities to the proposals as they presently stand after much thought therefore I'm going to register those concerns in a very reluctant vote against the government's own Amendment in case anyone imagines I do such things lightly I am someone who believes quite unapologetically that politics is a team sport I am not one of those types who suffers from delusions that the lone Brilliance of the tennis player is very often required or helpful on the political football pit

ch but I feel I do have little Choice today but to apply some real pressure on behalf of my genuinely worried Island constituents hpmas as the policy presently stands needs to be rethought and sooner rather than later I welcome the encouraging we in which the minister has engaged with those concerns today thank you I call Ariane Burgess to be followed by filter McGregor presiding officer all of us depend on a healthy natural world because nature underpins life it's not a nice to have it's essent

ial but species are being lost today even faster than in any of the previous five mass extinctions and scientists say ecosystems will collapse if we do not stop this biodiversity loss we must act it is in this sense of urgency which led us to ensuring protections for our oceans were included in the Butte house agreement because what happens in our seas is just as important as our attempts on land to replant rewild and reverse the destructive impact humans have had on our planet and the Scottish

government does not stand alone in proposing hpmas let me share with you some quotes from other supporters how do you protected Marine areas are a vital step forward in enabling our ecosystems to thrive increasing climate resilience and ensuring we have a healthy and protective productive marine environment for generations to come that's the Tory environment secretary Therese coffee just earlier this year but that's England you may say Scotland's marine environment is clearly different well here

's the Tory Manifesto in which Miss Hamilton and her colleagues stood in 2021 our Coastal communities can Thrive and grow while we better protect our marine biology the two are not mutually mutually exclusive they're Manifesto commits to a pilot of Highly protected Marine areas and here's conservative I don't have the time I'm sorry and here's conservative MSP Peter Chapman in 2020 Speaking In This Very Parliament there's no doubt that no take zones would be beneficial in the long run and by Jan

uary only think that having more no-take zones would be good not only for the environment but for our fishermen hpmas are a policy I don't believe I will get the time back I'm apologize to the member hpmas are a policy on which all parties were once United across this chamber but the Tories cannot stand to see Greens in government actually standing up for our values and delivering our commitments to voters so have pulled a U-turn they've sacrificed highly thank you members areas for their highly

protected Tory boat the hypocrisy of this motion which not only calls for the scrapping of their own Manifesto commitment but claims there is no scientific basis or ecological justification for marine protections which they themselves are rolling out in England is breathtaking no take zones and strict Marine protections are not only are not new policies the Scottish government has thought up but standard good practice for ocean protection and Recovery with well-established Zone across the world

in the USA Australia New Zealand and the Mediterranean the EU are currently passing a nature restoration law which would require at least 10 percent of European Waters to be strictly protected to claim that this continent-wide move somehow has no scientific backing takes breaths brexit fueled exceptionalism to an astonishing members we will not continue shouting across the chamber but we have just begun the process of community consultation we must let that continue and that the genuine concern

of local communities be heard not seek to undermine the real and credible scientific basis which underpins this policy we need a process for communities to meaningfully input into wider spatial plans for their inshore waters the Scottish government is Consulting with communities trying to make this work for everyone with a stake in our sea is that Tory politicians who are playing politics jumping on and off thank you Miss Burgess I must ask you to conclude at this point Miss Burgess thank you y

ou will conclude your tomorrow miss Burgess thank you I know called Fulton McGregor the final speaker in the open debate thank you sir and I want to highlight the outside as colleagues will know that I do not represent a coastal constituency and I know my colleagues who do are much closer to this issue and much more knowledgeable and did I quote many of the speeches from last night's members debate and found these very educational Heather I know that we can all agree that we need our fishing ind

ustry to be sustainable for the future so that's why we must make steps right now to facilitate this transition the fishing sector in Scotland has often been the leading industry in our country's immensely successful food and drink trade however this video industry is at risk due to the climate crisis we find ourselves in in marine species are in the midst of a population decline a report published last month by the intergovernmental panel and climate change have bluntly stated that smallholder

farms pasteurists and fishing communities could be some of the most vulnerable groups when it comes to climate change as we have heard hpma is seek to protect Marine environments increase sustainability and as seen in California Malaysia and New Zealand perhaps provide economic benefits to Regions close to hbmas through increased stock and equal tourism on the other side of that I'm aware that the proposals have been met with significant Cuts as an objection as was expressed by colleagues like D

r Al serran Karen Karen Adam Ferguson and Kate Forbes yesterday and today and I'm very much a believer in represent representational politics and I think it's essential that we hear concerns of communities when making policy decisions because of course if the population and loss of livelihoods and culture is a possibility as has been suggested then we must do all we can to prevent this not least this further migration to the urban central bill will also not help us meet climate child climate tar

gets either so from an outside perspective if you want to call it that it seems with two strong cases one for HPM is and one lodging I totally think of the policy and it is of course governments across the world job to navigate and balance competing rights and ideas and from what I can tell this is exactly where we are despite Tory attempts through this motion to see otherwise indeed the Scottish government's initial consultation and hpmas were only closed just over two weeks ago and it's now ne

cessary as others have said to take some time to review what I believe are a substantial number of responses that were collected over a four-month period the first Minister has made an abundant require that the Scottish government will not stream roll through or impose any on a community or policy that is permanently opposed to which is why the Scottish government has engaged with a wide range of fishing groups and many other environmental organizations and I know there's been public engagement

sessions and the leaking from what I've heard in from yesterday's debate and today from colleagues the cabinet secretary has been very open to meeting with communities to hear concerns and has been given much credit so the policy will get much attention and it's important that Scottish government pushed forward with Environmental Policy objectives while also not leaving anyone behind and protecting our community so I would encourage the Scottish government and the cabinet secretary continue its

robust engagement with stakeholders and I eagerly await the assessment of the consultation process as well and I'd also I know other members have mentioned it but I also like to hear a bit more about the thinking behind swimming and water sports and stuff as well maybe not touched on that as much as today yep absolutely Emma Harper thank you thank you Fulton McGregor for giving away it is clear that everybody including a cross chamber um is concerned about the Scottish government's proposal for

HP pmas are causing anxiety and stress and even much anger for all involved in the fishing sector so would they agree with me that we need to seek concrete assurances from the cabinet secretaries that the fishing communities will not be decimated in this process that is being pursued by the Scottish government Mr McGregor you will have to conclude yeah I thank them the member for that intervention and I would agree with that and I should have mentioned earlier as well and they have been as menti

oned us because I know she's um a great um representative and advocate in this area and as you've said president thank you we know now to winding up speeches and I call on Liam McArthur thank you design officer um during the course of this debate reports have appeared in the media that the first Minister has confirmed that he is happy to reconsider publishing the details of a investigation into alleged bullying made against the former Minister Fergus Ewing now previously it was asserted by the g

overnment that this would not be in the public interest and there would be a legal bar to it I cannot help um but have some suspicion that this announcement by the first minister is related to the concerns that were being expressed by Fergus Ewing last night during the debate on hpmes and if that is the case I think it would be absolutely despicable I think we had foreign motions I'd see that in my own constituency we've had evidence of it expressed during the debate last night and again today I

think there were some excellent contributions throughout the course of this debate but I would single out um the contribution from Australia I know that the speech he gave in the debate last night kind of been easy I think the speech and he gave very passionately in this afternoon's debate would have been even harder um as somebody who has rebelled against my party I think some would argue that this is perhaps more commonplace in my party than in his it is not an easy thing to do this is a team

sport and I I don't doubt for a second that Dr Allen has come to that decision very very reluctantly but I think the views that he expressed on behalf of his constituents are ones that are reflected in coastal and Island communities around the country and I hope that his constituents will consider the speech that he has given the decision that he has taken as being an exemplification of the way in which we as elected members ought to be representing our constituents and constituencies the probl

ems with the approach to hpmes are many in various and I think the fact that there is a lack of evidence a lack of clear purpose and to the proposals and has not helped but the blunt and arbitrary nature of a 10 designation by a timeline of 2026 I think it puts the tin hat on it for many people I know the cabinet secretary reflected earlier that there is a need for an emergency response in relation to the climate and biodiversity emergency but in an emergency response you were still despite havi

ng to make difficult decisions you're still going to have to bring people with you and my concern is that the approach the government has taken has so alienated key stakeholders in this debate that the ability to reach agreement on the protections that may be needed going forward is going to be immeasurably more difficult as a result Ruder Grant um I mentioned the uh the uh the approach that the reference in the government motion to lamb lash B um I was very interested in the in the insights tha

t kitty cart where it was able to bring in terms of the bottom-up approach that was taken there the buy-in that's absolutely needed and I think that is what um we would all wish to see whether it's with MPS whether it's um with stricter protections that are put in place if they're imposed from above they have no Prospect of of being accepted and therefore delivering the objective lives that we wish to see them deliver this is about the fishing industry certainly but it's around um depopulation i

t's about the viability of many communities and again like I did last night I would simply urge the the government to think again to fundamentally think again on these proposals and the Damage that they are likely to cause on Ireland and Coastal communities thank you thank you and I call on Michael marrow thank you for staying off so this has been a vital debate uh for our Parliament but particularly for the communities that we serve there will as many members have said been watched closely by c

onstituents from around our Coastal communities um but I think it's also a taste of uh and a test indeed of the very idea of a just transition uh in the face of what we all recognize as a climate and nature emergency and that matters to all our constituents across the country the approach that we take to this idea of just transition and I do think that Parliament has been clear today across all parties that the government must do better they must listen and it must bring these people with them a

nd so rightly I believe when we talk about these ideas of transition the the SMP government continually reject the idea the Tory approach to economic change and it's where they have abandoned our Caulfield and our industrial communities over Generations but I must not and it cannot be cabinet secretary lerwick no more kirkwell no more store no way no more Allah pool no more our growth no more but tragically I think today's debate is just the latest example in a Litany of policies from this gover

nment which have failed our Coastal but particularly our Island communities fairies that don't materialize a breakdown in Crofton regulation delays and extending reliable Broadband provision housing policies pushing families out of villages and a tokenistic commitment to the gallic language which I will come back to this government's myopic focus on Central belt policies has served our Island and Coastal communities poorly for 16 years the protection of garlic and our ancient cultural heritage c

annot be achieved without the protection of the communities that speak Gaelic the language is a question of economy the systemic failure of our of our Island communities in the west of Scotland by this government is leading to depopulation and the destruction of livelihoods so that was made clear in a research paper titled the gallic crisis in the vernacular Community published in 2020 and it had this Stark warning the gallic speaker group does not have the demographic or societal resources to s

ustain a communal presence in the islands beyond the next 10 years 10 years while we undoubtedly face that climate crisis the government must recognize Brazilian officer the concurrent demographic crisis in the communities most impacted by the proposals that we are debating today that paper went on to highlight the ongoing economic and demographic challenges in The Western Isles and other Island groups exacerbate matters the retention I'll just let me finish this and I'll bring the minister in t

he retention of young people and young families willing to contribute to community Vitality will be Central to any credible strategy of revitalization please awesome great Mr member for taking an intervention he greatly sets out a swathe of concerns but can I ask him does he accept that where those views are held by Consulting as broadly and as early as I have and by committing to very closely considering the responses before deciding steps forward I have engaged Coastal communities as early and

as meaningfully as I can I would say to the cabinet secretary not quite gently I have to say that meaningful consultation is genuinely about listening and changing and that is the opportunity that's in front of the cabinet secretary today to accept the motion the amendments are in front of her to listen to some of our back benches but crucially to listen to the people in these communities who do not see many of them a future but for themselves and for their children and their grandchildren in t

he places that they love and that we are elected to serve the government cannot persist and willful ignorance of the realities of life in those communities Islanders are making sure of that and I have to say Parliament today has made sure of that the people have raised their voices through the consultation the cabinet secretary talks about and those voices are being heard in this debate through many of this speeches those voices cannot be ignored please please please think again pull on cabinet

secretary thank you very much presiding officer I really do want to thank members for their contributions today and I'm glad to have the opportunity to take part and close this debate in my role as cabinet secretary for Rural Affairs land of Foreman Islands given my responsibilities for Fisheries for aquaculture and cross-government work on Islands these are responsibilities that I cared about and that I take seriously and I do really appreciate the gravity of the concerns that have been raised

across the chamber today and I've really listened intently to each of the contributions that members have made like the cabinet secretary for Net Zero I represent a rural constituency and Coastal communities within it and like Mary McAllen I care about what those communities are saying to us and what they're thinking just as I know that all of those who've Taken part in the debates today yesterday as well as took part in the meeting with Mary McCallen and myself due to all of that is very clear

from the contributions that we've heard in the chamber this afternoon firstly I want to welcome the widespread and the shared recognition that I think we all have of the importance of the Scottish fishing industry the aquaculture industry as well as the importance of having healthy and vibrant Coastal communities Scotland's marine environment is a National Asset that we are privileged to have the resources it provides maintain they create jobs it brings prosperity to Coastal and Island locations

and to The Wider supply chain across Scotland but we need yes I will okay I'm very grateful just on that last point I wonder what assessment has the Scottish government made on the economic impact to those very fishing communities and Coastal communities of a fishing ban cabinet secretary I'm sure the member will be aware that we've published partial information in relation to that but of course in relation to the socio-economic impacts the Island community impacts assessments we can only fully

complete those when we have sites in mind so we know what the exact impact of that is going to be and we can look at that more fully and that's why the partial assessments were included within the papers now a certainly not at the moment I need to make progress we need to recognize that our marine environment and the resources are also Under Pressure like never before and the Bold and ambitious decision making is needed to ensure that we do have that sustainable future alongside other prioritie

s the government are delivering hpmes will have a role in helping to preserve our natural Capital our median Industries depend on and safeguarding our marine environment for future generations to enjoy and that's essentially what this is about this government's priority is the long-term sustainability of our communities for our economic growth supporting people to live and work in our delirious and really helping those communities thrive but but also wholly committed to protecting the Marine Res

ources our fishing industry depends on with consultation embedded at every stage and with just transition at the heart of everything we do to give us the best chance of arriving at the right decisions for the right reasons now this is the complete opposite approach to what we're seeing to be delivered elsewhere we don't have to look far to find those examples hpmes are in the process of being introduced by the UK government who are implementing pilot sites in England they're doing that and we're

seeing that being done in a top-down way with unclear goals and in inappropriate locations and I think it's also important to remember that two of those sites have already been dropped because of rejection by those communities unlike the Tories this government isn't willing to base the future of moving protection in Scotland on pilots and English Waters and based on the English fishing industry when they are profoundly different from those in Scotland and to do that would mean that Scotland's u

nique interests are being disregarded but it's also not clear from the debate today whether the Scottish conservatives support their own Manifesto commitments on hpmas or not indeed all the opposition parties campaigned and were elected on manifestos that committed to pursuing a policy in this regard to enhance protection of our marine environment I know that Katie Clark and her contribution mentioned that we should have introduced specific proposals but I think that would have been the complete

opposite approach to what we're actually trying to do which is Consulting as early as stage as possible on how we even go about this process which I think is really important I know that we all agree about the importance of fishing in aquaculture to our economy that's why we've supported the industry with significant amounts of funding over previous years 9.7 million in Fisheries science we've negotiated 468 million pounds worth through our International fishery negotiations because we recogniz

e the importance of this sector and I'm sure that we can also all agree on the fact that we need to take action on the climate and nature emergencies and I'm sure we would also all agree that we need to do that in a way as the cabinet secretary described in our opening which is fair which is just which leaves no one and no Community behind the Scottish government wants to work hand in glove with all of those who have stakenness the communities the Fishers our marine industries to create the best

possible future for our environment our economy and for those communities in closing presiding officer I I really just wanted to reiterate again some important points firstly that we will not steamroll through or impose on any Community a policy that they're vehemently opposed to we again to emphasize I'm in my closing remarks again to emphasize we are at the very start of this process not the end thirdly we've had a consultation we will carefully look at all of the responses we've received we

will be engaging with Industries with communities and we are listening let's agree to put people ahead of politics and help make the consultative and collaborative process to deliver that vision of a positive future flood environment economy and communities as successful as it can be thank you and I now call on Finley Carson to wind up the debate uh thank you president officer the first Minister stated my starting point will always be that we all want the best for Scotland and the people that we

are so privileged to represent words and I genuinely hope that he delivers on that promise particularly in light of the response to the ill-conceived proposals and introducing highly protected Marine areas which have sparked enormous backlash amongst fishing communities Allen and breadth of Scotland they're rightly fear that if the plans to increase limitations on ensure fishing and Marine activities goes ahead they will devastate many Coastal communities in what has been described as the moder

n day Highland clearances Jimmy halcrow Johnson mentioned Kate from Dingle and her comments remarkably similar to MSP Kate Forbes who voiced deep concern during her leadership campaign saying I cannot understand why anyone in government particularly when we're deliberately trying to stem depopulation in rural areas thought it would be a good idea to take such a blanket approach she more recently suggested that the government have turned the corner sadly from what I can see from the government's

Amendment the only Corner they've turned is the corner that leads to a dead end for our fishing communities certainly will MPA means it certainly it came to light that the government's Amendment certainly doesn't mean to make sense and it might be helpful if the cabinet secretary explains which hmpa is um but one thing obvious is that change in Direction isn't unusual for the SNP because they've had more changes of Direction than the wind of the Muller Galloway one thing certainly is SMP Greener

lines won't be satisfied until even godlin and rock pools is prohibited Karen Adams Emma Harper and before her pay rise Jenny Minto have spoken out about the enormous levels of concern that exist in the future of our fishing communities with primary school children even questioning Alistair Allen over hpmas the phrase leave a light on was once a commonly used phrase for this SMP green government but this time it's them who are looking to turn the lights off in our Coastal communities perhaps th

e most emphatic critic has been Ferguson stating the only mention of fishermen says that what they do is destructive describing the consultation document as a notice of execution if these hpmes go ahead everyone involved in our Seafood industry sector will have the Specter of redundancy hanging over them for many years to come as a Scottish government going to seriously jeopardize plans for a workable blue economy just to appease the greens who make no mistake are the extremists behind this high

ly contentious back of a packet policy commitment they can't even turn up in the chamber in any numbers to defend the policy yeah there is no robust policy analysis no data underpinning the process no time to establish baselines no indicators to measure the effect and critically no assessment of the impact of thousands of families in the rural communities but should we be surprised given the central belt bias we often see from this green SNP coalition it's only the Scottish conservatives who und

erstand and stand up for a rural and Coastal communities yeah Seafood presiding officer is a key part of Scotland's transition to Net Zero and we need policies that support sustainable lower Mission food production and that goes in hand in hand with marine conservation the seafood sector is a highly supportive it's highly supportive and for Generations as practice meaningful and well-founded conservation but the hpma policy fails to appreciate that these proposals for sorry I don't have time thi

s proposal for hpma is threatened balance with the government unable to provide any substance to why they believe they're needed as Elizabeth McDonald the Scottish Fisherman's Federation points out the latest response from the government is both misleading and hugely concerning it takes as fact that hpmas will happen making a complete mockery of the consultation process the Scottish government is clearly only interested in discussing where hpmas will be imposed not whether the case for them has

been made Karen Adams has already sought to be given assurances from both the first Minister and the cabinet secretary the hpmes would not be imposed on communities now that language has now changed to communities that are vehemently opposed does that mean protests outside Parliament or gunboats quailing Troublesome fishing boats efferently could be defined or measured it's evident that government has moved the goal posts perhaps Mary McAllen can tell us what she plans to do if the consultation

reinforces the universal opposition to hpmas from Coastal communities Across the Western Prince of Scotland what happens to the Butte house agreement commitment to the greens to bring 10 protected areas in further furthermore the Scottish government makes a misleading statement claiming the plans are in line with those of Europe wrong they're going to exceed them the EU Target is 30 of waters it's similar to our existing mpas which allow some fishing and end to strike the right balance between c

onservation and sustainable harvesting Scotland is already almost 40 percent of its Waters under some protection so here we're adding another 10 of total fishing ban now I'm quite sure even SNP Treasurer can do that simple sum the cabinet sector said she cares she empathize she's a rural MSP and deeply connected and listening but not so deeply connected or willing to listen to stakeholders in the hunting with dogs Bill where she effectively banned the legal activity of rough shooting after watch

ing a YouTube video video and she doesn't understand that muraban doesn't Bond Pete so how can we place any trust in our or our colleagues judgment to get this right this is all the signs of being another example of bad policy making acronyms seem to be the common thread of green SMP policy from DRS to grr r100 to 2ncr and now it's hpmes it should be TTFN tata for now for this policy it should be tagged to DNR do not resuscitate this dead doc policy our Manifesto supports a pilot but we did not

support a blank introduction of hpmes physician officer in closing we've already heard about the anti-hpme protest song The clearances Again by skipnish highlighting the real fear surrounding the serious economic and social Devastation this policy will bring my song marks a fight for survival a Mayday cry we cry we will stand for the rights of our children will not let our Islands die Aleister Allen Karen Adams inner Harper don't allow yourselves to be bullied by the whips stand strong for your

communities where will you Place Your Allegiance at decision time with extreme policies of the green or with the communities you represent Mr Carson you will be letting your communities down they will be watching [Applause]