Tech journalist Kara Swisher on ‘Burn Book’ and the power of big tech (Full Stream 2/27)

[Music] thank you for coming I really appreciate it you kept your promise which was nice I think you were drunk when you promised me but that's okay I'll take it I'm just curious It's I'm just sitting here listening to you what do you do all day what is your what is I just as I was sitting here I was like I wonder what he does most people think not enough I think you probably do more than most people this idea that they could do no wrong and I they don't want to take responsibility for the even

a small amount of responsibility for the things they've done and it's not it's not even that you don't think Tech is great and has made things but a lot of their success was based on off the backs of the US government for example um and they they tend to think if it's because of their own Innovation and no matter they were the ones they are ready player one in every single thing and therefore they know best and they don't know [Music] best hello and welcome to Washington Post Live I'm Sarah Elli

son a reporter here at the post and today I am really thrilled truly thrilled to be joined by Cara Swisher who is um who in some ways needs no introduction but is a tech journalist columnist entrepreneur um also an author we are here to talk to her today about her new book called burnbook a tech Love Story Cara welcome thank you it's called multi hyen it now I don't know if you know that but that's the term that's the the technical term now got it got it got it also Mom Mom too also we the too m

any hats too many hats how do you find time to do everything um well first before we get to the book I want to now that we have you I want to ask you a little bit about some news that we were all sort of listening in on yesterday which were the oral Arguments for the Supreme Court case that will be decided sometime in June about a Texas law and a related Florida law um where the these laws have basically banned social media companies from suspending uh political candidates um and media organizat

ions and I'm just wondering if you could walk our audience through what the stakes are why should we care about this how important are these arguments and will this decision be yeah I think the Supreme Court will knock it knock it down because I but there there's two conflicting decisions that's why they had to take it up in people have supported it or or not supported it different judges and so they have to decide here um basically it's the first big Free Speech kind of case that has come up in

a long time and the question is can you force social media companies to put on stuff they don't want to put on that's like saying the Washington Post has to do whatever it does it's the government reaching in and telling the Washington Post they can't not write about someone they don't want to write about these are publishing companies as far as I'm concerned I think a lot of people they've become massive Distributors of news and they've created organizations that aren't precisely like a news o

rganization but they are they're the way people get their media and so can they be forced to do that can you and if their argument some of it is they're like a telephone company should they be forced to be told who can who can use or not use their systems they can't be they have First Amendment rights themselves I often don't take the tech company side on this but this is just an egregious overreach of government power and they're dressing it up in censorship ideas which is a which is a uh you k

now Boogeyman on the right everything's been censored of course these people never shut up that's kind of an interesting phenomena is that the people who cry most about censorship really literally never stop talking um and I'm talking to you Marjorie Taylor green um and one of the things that's problematic here is that that there's a real movement to do this to control speech by the government the other case that's being taken up that is also related is coming soon which is whether our governmen

t can talk to tech companies about problems and things like that or if it's seen as coercion that's an important case too because the government as as most people who read the first amendment know you're not the government shall make no law not Google not Facebook not Amazon the government shall make no law um and so the question is to what extent can government talk to and warn tech companies of problems which they should be able to have a robust exchange the question is where does the line whe

re's the line drawn on Co to take things down right I mean on January 6th 2021 you tweeted um at Jack dorsy who was then running Twitter that he should suspend Donald Trump's Twitter account so who should decide who should decide um you know I'm not entirely comfortable with two people deciding to remove someone from most of social media in that case it was Jack dorsy and Mark Zuckerberg I'm not entirely comfortable with that but I am certainly not comfortable the government doing it that that I

'm certain I think you know this these are private platforms Everyone likes to go on and on about the Public Square when it's convenient for them but they are not a Public Square this is a private Square owned and operated by some of the richest people on earth now whether they should have that role that we can address that in other ways should there be more competition should we re should we have more antitrust laws should we deal privacy issues we don't deal with those things the the power the

unlimited power of these tech companies and it's conflating here like just because they have unlimited power doesn't mean they don't have free speech and to to try to impose the government forcing people to leave Donald Trump on a platform if he breaks their rules I'm sorry you wouldn't do that to the Washington Post you wouldn't do that to uh you know CNN it just if you if you take it out to other media it's a real problem and that's what the first amendment is for these companies have First A

mendment rights um and you know you could you could do all kinds of scenarios but it's a real problem if the Supreme Court sides with Florida and Texas who have to be the most cynical people on Earth they are political players that are trying to score IAL points if you want to rain in Tech this is not the way to do it this is this is the worst possible way you should be able to do it and that said the government should be able to talk to tech companies especially around terrorism or safety issue

s or at least recommend and warn uh tech companies and and work together with the government in in in case serious cases not frivolous cases but in terms serious things that we they need to be warned about um I'm not going to go on forever about policy but do want to ask you one other thing um which is that the Senate seems to be on the verge of doing something that hasn't been done um ever maybe which is the kids online uh safety and and I want to hear sort of whether you think I mean that the

it seems like it's going to pass the Senate the Fate in the house is uncertain but what do you think of that is that going to happen is that significant it's never going to be a law because the house isn't going to take so it doesn't really matter I mean need some sort of safety act about kids this is not the way I would necessarily go about it I don't mind a little legislation one of the initial problems with the legislation is that in it gave States attorneys generals far too many too much pow

er here because if in states where they don't like gay people they could say gay people are bad for children right it could go could really I'm a gay person but anybody you know they could decide anything they want in these states um and so you know you've got to sort of have a federal version of this and I see some of it is good some of it is problematic what I might do is spend a lot more time on ageg gating should young people be able you know we ageg gate a lot of things some of this stuff p

erhaps should be ageg gated um there should be stronger laws about child exploitation and maybe U many more exceptions to section 230 where people can do liability you know where they can sue these companies um if they have a case and they either win or lose based on the law um that I'm more comfortable with that these sort of Omnibus kind of safety rules I think are a little performative on some level and they don't anticipate all the problems I think there's a lot more surgical ways to deal wi

th things like this um but you know they can't pass they can't agree on lunch up there on the hill so I'm not sure there they haven't passed any substantive internet laws in let me get let me check now forever never never ever so I don't expect them to do so now um you brought up section 230 and I want to just spend a minute on that um sure you what are your thoughts on whether that's going I mean should that go away you talked about some exceptions to it yeah well I mean here's the problem I I

wrote about it at the time for the Washington Post actually there was a thing called the communications decency act much of it was ruled unconstitutional I believe and but this stayed and this was an immunity for these tech companies because at the time they were created they could have been sued out of existence right because if something was on their platform should they be liable for it if I say something liist should Steve case be liable for it Etc because they were really almost common carr

iers in a lot of ways and so I think it was to protect a n industry well right now that industry has grown it was a baby now it's a giant baby and it's a giant powerful Rich most rich baby of all time and so do they deserve those protections now now the minute you get rid of section 230 they can't could be sued out of existence but the fact that there's no liability for these companies or very little is problematic liability is one way we control um egregious acts right in some way it's fair and

so so the question is where can we put how can we change it and adjust it in a way that could be smarter for the times we live in now um same thing with anti-rust laws how do we adjust and and change to address the current situation and at the time it was a great law right now it's it's it gives them kind of an out and so I'm not of the get rid of it I think people that do that don't really understand the issues um and don't understand the actual uh law itself um we just have to start to put so

me very very specific other laws in place that might protect us a little better and also protect the rights everybody has data privacy um an algorithmic transparency ha anti-hacking if they know about a hacking they have to tell you you know disclosures there's all kinds of things they could do to mitigate these issues um one of the things that we're in right now is an election year and we think a lot about that at the Washington Post um I see you on threads and and threads has specifically said

that they're going to back away from political content and news content what do you think was behind that um announcement and that decision and what do you think of it in an election year in they can do whatever they can do whatever they want it's not their they're not look Mark Zuckerberg isn't your political mommy you know what I mean if he doesn't want to do it he doesn't have to do it I don't mind like look certain Publications decide how much politics obviously Washington post covers a lot

um I don't think we put them up as saviors or it's their Duty or it's not it's their company they can do whatever they want if they want that to do it actually does tone down they don't have to deal with all the you the disaster there right they don't like they they they got it they got it bad with the Trump stuff right when they took them off or they put them in purgatory or whatever the heck they did to them um very difficult to T try to litigate all this stuff and especially when they're com

pletely inept at it by the way they're not just bad they are they are damaging the way they made decisions and so so they just want to not have to deal with it at all and everybody talk about cat videos and flower arranging and you know the latest book they read I think they prefer that that it's much more like Instagram although There's issues on Instagram all kinds of problematic issues as as they as there are in humanity by the way and so I think they just are like I think we'll we'll we'll c

heck out this year on this one and that's what they're going to do so that's their decision I don't I don't much care yeah I mean it's it's you've written about this though too it's also going to drive sort of the traffic away from traditional media on those platforms and you've written you know very forcefully about this about how these I can't what did you say uh they they obliterated the business model for for media companies just wondering help us understand exactly how that happened well sp

ecifically The Washington Post there have a lot of in the book about what happened at the Washington Post and I have huge regard for the the gram family who owned it and that's who I worked for Ben Bradley and others um who when I was young um this was back in the last century um and one of the things that I saw coming very early I had written about a retailer called the halfs and it was I wrote a series of really great stories and none nobody remembers them but they were the richest family in W

ashington they were coming apart and I moved over to digital because I was the young person on this on the business staff and they like give it to the young person right essentially and when I started exploring it it was very quick to see I was a student of media as at Georgetown I went to on Foreign Service school and propaganda and so once you started to see some of these things I had already seen sort of a troubling issue around display advertising because local retailers had died um like Gar

f Finkles and hex and some others or had moved to bigger organizations and companies like Walmart were coming in which were highly technical actually on how they stock stores and everything else but they weren't advertising so I was like oh that's a that's a problem right like that that's a big you know that's a big economic engine of the Washington Post but then when I saw classifi when I saw saw Craigslist I was like oh no this is bad because that was a big economic engine um and the minute Cr

aigslist came in it didn't just decimate it it collapsed the whole classified business right with free classifi and and it was part it was a lot to do with how media conducted this the classifi were expensive ineffective and static like and in the new era that wasn't going to happen and then lastly when you saw a lot of free news um being put out there you wondered what happened to subscriptions and what could the post or any news organization do to make stuff that people were willing to pay for

so it changed the economics so quickly and then into that into that Delta ran Google and Facebook which sucked up all the digital advertising which is where it was going next and they could afford to lose money at it until it became very profitable and these companies couldn't make that transition from physical to digital as quickly um one of the things you are the best at is puncturing the egos um of these these men mostly men in Silicon Valley and I'm wondering if you can uh sort of unpack fo

r the audience are these just the newest version of robber barons or is this a different crop of people how should we think about these sort of Masters of the Universe some of them are good some of them are bad they're all unaccountable right they have unaccountable wealth they have unaccountable power um I you look we can make fun of our public officials all the time and they're laughable on many occasions right like you just sit there and you sort of roll your eyes but the fact of the matter i

s no matter what you think whatever side you're on they are elected this is what the people decided this is who they chose and so that is that the people that are making decisions for us on all range of issues whether it's Mark Zuckerberg deciding whether or not to kick Holocaust deniers off a platform where most people get their news that's a problem like that's a real problem and so I think a lot of of them are inep to the task or inexperienced some of them are quite good like you don't like l

ook they just do what they do um I use I often use Tim Cook as the example can you imagine Tim Cook you know putting up uh you know boob jokes or or Ukraine thoughts online like come on they doesn't do it he does his job he makes whatever he's making Vision Pro or new iPhones or whatever um at the same time he has enormous power in the app store right to decide who wins and who loses and that that the that's right now subject to Federal um scrutiny what's happening in court cases um around the A

pp Store with epic and things like that um so I just feel like they have so much power and so much money it's it's never going to end well even if they have good intentions even if they're CEOs are mature um unfortunately a lot of the CEOs are not so mature they're I call them adult toddlers in many cases yes well you did you did say I I love this line um you sort of right with this sense of disappointment that these quote once fresh-faced wonderin I had mostly rooted for now make me feel like a

parent whose progyny had turned into well yes and yes I this Evolution um is it inevitable is there something that like power you know power corrupts or is there something specific about the tech world that makes this happen no it's just it's rich people right it doesn't like listen we're having to endure Bill Amman right now they he's a hedge fund guy right what does he know about Dei but he sure does talk about it and everybody pays attention because he's a rich guy who happen to give money t

o Harvard you know like okay so that gives you the right to be a persistent irritant you know and like if I what if I started tweeting about hedge fund investing oh let me tell you what I think without any knowledge of the situation uh let me take out my personal foibles on everybody else and pretend it's something about something serious so this is what rich people do once they now they've gotten a little power and they got their own little Network right um let us tell you because we're rich wh

at we think about Ukraine like the fact that VC's some of them are smart I guess you know are like pontificating about what we should do in the South China Sea I'd rather they just sit down like otherwise so I think it's I think it's a function it's it's a disease of rich people who have people licking them up and down all day um that they they must be right and that's why many of them don't talk to me anymore because often I'd be like what are you talking about Sir um and they don't after a whi

le they don't love that they don't love being told they're inept or stupid or that was stupid because everyone else is being paid everyone else is being paid and but this is happens in Hollywood this happens it's just on a mega scale because they are they're not just a little Rich they're obscenely rich they're crazy Rich right you know I mean it's they're crazy rich and so they can do whatever they want they're little nation states in and of themselves the companies and the people and they don'

t talk to you anymore is it's F that's fin no no that's not true no oh I do I talk to all of them let me just not and I had a falling but I talked to the rest of them i' I've talked to all of them you know look the ones that are adults like I talked to Tim Cook I talked to Bob Iger I talked to like a lot of them like whoever they happen to be in Media or technology uh I just talked to sain Nadella recently like he's an adult he can deal with you know difficult Cara oh know she's going to ask me

a tough question how whatever shall I do I'm just I'm just I hate to use the the Tucker cars in is just asking questions but I'm actually just asking questions and I think most intelligent people smart people strong people really can face a decent question I'm not asking them personal questions I'm not asking them stupid questions I'm asking them okay this happened tell me what happened here and I think most intelligent people are fine with it it's just the big babies that like lose their brain

because I don't know who knows they should get therapy I think personally um you you defin defitely have interviewed almost all of them if not all of them of and the one who comes to mind most often these days is somebody you've sparred with publicly and regularly um who you used to be quite close with and that's Elon Musk and I'm wondering um I mean there's so many elements whether it's the woke mind virus um his relationship with with government um but can you just just at the very top line ca

n you just tell us what you think has happened to Elon Musk yeah all right I I get a lot of flack for thinking he was really inspirational like I said so I just was here was here was me as a beat reporter and as as you know Sarah you're an excellent beat reporter too um you're a beat reporter you can't really say what you think of anybody you know for a long time but then when I got to All Things d one of the reasons I created it within the Wall Street Journal because I was sick of not saying wh

at I thought about stuff I reported on right I did not talk about things I didn't know I did extensive reporting and then I came to a conclusion that's what all things D was about to get rid of the 2B Shore statement that the Wall Street Journal voiced it upon me and you know that sentence right to be sure some people say you know that one rer Murdoch is not a terrible person like I just I'm like he is like stop it like I think he is based on my reporting and and I can say that and so once I sta

rted doing that I was able to say that and one of the things I noticed was a lot of really smart people in my mind working on stupid things right like if I had to talk to I use this example on this book tour would like if I hear one more digital dry cleaning you know I'm doing a dig but it's digital care I'm like but you're still cleaning the clothes right like I don't get it it were all dumb the ideas like they started to get really dumb and and minuscule right kind of like doesn't really move

the needle here was a guy who had been doing like he did a a Yellow Pages thing not that impressive fine whatever digitizing Yellow Pages okay um they did a payment system which was interesting he did X and then he merged he and PayPal merged and sold it okay made some money but instead of doing what everybody else did like you know part-time VCS and full-time pontificators he started he worked he didn't create Tesla he he invested in it and then became the head of IT Tesla he did SpaceX he he w

as doing some like Brain Company he did a tunnel digging thing which is seems to be kind of cooky but I like I like the initiative it was interesting right but at least B on a couple things space and and energy saving for cars boy that was important to me I was like oh finally someone is dealing with real issues right that have impact now what happened to him is there's lots of theories and what happened to him but he he had a part of his personality that was silly like a lot of them not not jus

t silly just stupid juvenile like you know what I mean a boob joke a penis joke a dank meme he had that like and he was far too too old as many of them are to be telling so many of them but it was a minor part of his personality there were issues around race racial issues and and sexual harassment issues at his factories look this was throughout I was in the middle of covering Uber on this issue this was not fresh or at at Kleiner Perkins this is this was problematic across the tech industry and

we wrote about it um and but at the same time these were really interesting Innovative companies then something happened during covid I that is where we first when he did that first pedo thing I was like that's weird which this is the cave diver who accused of being a pedophile I nobody throws around that term loosely and I was like wow that was weird you know what I mean that was weird that said he did win in that court case it was stupid on his part and really cruel um then during covid he st

arted pontificating about Co because he was mad because they were putting closing down his Factory and he you know he was on the nice edge of of going out of business right on a lot of things um and this was pre-co and we did an interview before covid where he went through a very dramatic period when Tesla was in big trouble they got government loan and then they were real they were really in a valley of death situation and when we were doing this interview I think it was 2018 it was it was it w

as Halloween I remember it was Halloween but um he kept saying you know he had to sleep on the factory floor that's something he said and I was like why like cuz I had to be there and I was like okay like there's a bed nearby like you could have gotten a motel next door and then he was that so that was highly dramatic and then he said something to me which was like if Tesla didn't survive Humanity was doomed that was essentially the message and I was like oh that's a little dramatic that's a lit

tle egomaniacal it was weird you know what I mean I piled it away he didn't do it that often but he had that that sort of Godlike tendency and then during the Trump the first Trump thing when I talked to him quite a bit about the they were going to do an anti-gay executive order they did the Muslim thing I he and I talked I was like they're going to do a Muslim ban and he's like I shall convince them otherwise I remember that and I said listen Jesus good for you but I don't believe you can stop

him like I think you're wrong you're misjudging this guy badly because he says it Trump is so explicit it's not like he's hiding under a sheet doing things although that's a good interesting metaphor I just used um but he he was very explicit in his racism and homophobia and Etc and so that was interesting I was like like wow you really think you're God you know it was it was it was language that was made me uncomfortable that's for sure but then we had an interview during covid where he started

to say things that were strange you know what I mean like there'll be no covid deaths or whatever he had it's not a big deal I'm not getting the covid vaccine the government's trying to get me the man is trying to get me it was those it was that tone and I kept thinking well you kind of are the man so it's okay to be safer than sorry right we don't know and I think I kept saying you know maybe they're overreaching but we don't know what if it's real bad right like maybe it's good to be a little

bit but he sought as Government overreach I saw it as safety um that was problematic and then then the Twitter stuff and I just I don't know I I think he's just gotten radicalized the way a lot of people are online I think drug use as the Wall Street Journal has written quite accurately about um might have been might be part of it and then it's just being the world's richest man with everybody again licking you up and down he gets particularly licked and so he's always right and we had a big fa

lling out inexplicable falling out but I don't care whatever yeah I mean it's interesting this that relationship it's in some ways it's a perfect lead into the the other idea that I wanted to bring up which is that you you have had this long relationship with so many of the I mean you see yeah you're interviewing Mark Zuckerberg when he's a baby and and you know still around now um yeah he doesn't talk talked to me very much but I accept it you're but you're I mean know other people who' written

big biographies and had a big presence um Walter isacson uh Michael Lewis was sort of criticized for his proximity um to his subject and and you have gotten some I mean you've had this long life and you were you were your job was to get Scoops and you got a lot of them and and now and I wonder the relationship that you've had how you balance that sort of that proximity and that that I push back on this one because they're like oh she wasn't tough on them I don't know if you've noticed it's inte

resting because a lot of the pr people I dealt with back then was like I don't know what these people are talking about Cara drove me freaking nuts right I remember those intervie I remember those interviews that's correct it's like it's really interesting because it's it's like a lot of people who work maybe born then didn't pay attention to what I was doing I mean early on I wrote a lot about Google's Monopoly power I wrote a pie that called them thugs you know this is in the early 2000s they

cannot have search dominance Uber we strafe them and we did a lot of breaking stories including about you know using um personal files and their privacy issues we were very tough on Facebook from the beginning I was very tough on on privacy we had the famous interview in 200 I think it was 10 or earlier where he sweat where we were pushing him on privacy I had an interview with him where I pushed him on Holocaust deniers that was 2018 or 17 or 18 in the New York Times my very first column was Ma

rk Zuckerberg is a digital is a digital arms dealer and so are the rest of them and so when they're like she wasn't Tough Enough I'm like I'm sorry boys where were you like I'm sorry I was a beat reporter but honestly like are you can you look can you look at what we what I wrote no they couldn't possibly look at what I wrote I was like okay mommy wasn't mean enough because she had to have relationships with them I don't the the one you could give me a hard time on is Elon Musk but honestly I I

very few other people were doing that and I thought he was doing a lot of really interesting things and it didn't you know everyone was like you're doing it so you can have interviews with them I'm like marks were literally sweat on my stage and it embarrass the hell out of him I was super tough on all these people I don't know what you want would you want me to attack him like do you want me to like throttle him in a in a live cage match speaking of cage matches um I just I didn't I never got i

t and I I'll be honest with you sir some of it is sexism honestly it's like I I shouldn't say this but I lapped a lot of these reporters constantly so did all the all things D reporters and as you know having been at the you're at the journal it was there there's a lot of like competition within these things and I just feel like I I'm very pleased with my record on being tough on these guys and calling attention to privacy issues to I was one of the first people to write about sexism in the thin

g I did a whole story calling the men and no women of Facebook this is 200 whatever four whatever SE probably later because they came out later but I wrote one of the first stories pointing out the sexism on boards on this and that again I okay sure I'm super friends with them like I'm just I never socialize with you know I'm pretty tough on verock someone you know about um yeah no I mean it's a it's a it's an interesting thing when people look back and don't remember the toughest interviews but

I want to ask you I mean this is such a wide in book and it it go it's sort of a memoir but it's it's sort of the history of Silicon Valley what do you want people to to take from the book you know as as I think you've noted there's a sort of Insider take and then there's the rest of the world that wants to just know something about this incredibly powerful group of individuals that are running our society but what do you want people to take away from the book well I didn't write it for insider

s you know really interesting like is there news here no it's a memoir of what happened I'm writing it what if you want to read a a really quick and pretty easy to read um history of the internet this is for you right it's fast you know you're on a plane you want to learn about it I think you'll be fine with it if you're someone who likes to know what these people were like from a historic point of view this is my opinion of what they were like like everyone's going to have their own take Walter

Isaac's gonna had his take demons demons that was it like come on like I didn't agree with that one but everybody has their own take on what people are like so this is my take so I had some insight because I met them in the before times and let me show you what they're like now so I think it's very valuable to know the before times I also have a very serious string going through this book which is about unaccountable power of billionaires unaccountable power of tech and the impact Tech is going

to have on our lives and how it has occupied us that it controls US versus US controlling it given we've put so much into it our data the taxpayer paid for the internet we've gave loans to Elon mus we've helped these people become as big as they are and we are their we are their product right we are the we are the product and so I want people to really understand as we go into this new age of artificial general intelligence now artificial intelligence has been around for a long time that we hav

e to put things into place regulations not a ton of them I'm not I'm a capitalist you know I've created startups I don't love a lot of Regulation but I certainly would like more than one more than zero actually um and so that's I we have start to put in you're not going to mitigate damage from anything everything all the time but I think the key quote in this book if I had to pick it was is the pul varilo quote um in which um I when you invent the ship you invent the Shipwreck now you're not goi

ng to stop shipwrecks but you can do things you can create a lighthouse you can you know there's there's mitigation to every technology has seeds of negativity I'm not against it's just going to happen damage happens but doesn't have to happen in this much and then the last thing is the my favorite anecdote in the book is when I argu with the Google Founders about trying to take over Yahoo this was way back when when I was being so nice to them I called them thugs um and they called me because t

hey were mad I wrote that because I compared them to Microsoft and said they shouldn't have 97% of the search Market that is abuse that is Monopoly abuse and one of them called me and he said I can't believe you said that about us we're nice people I'll never forget this and they don't study history they aren't very literate like these people don't have a sense of history and I you know they had the don't be evil thing and they're like we said don't be evil we're nice people I I said to them and

they I I'm certain they didn't hear it I said two things I said one I'm not worried about you I'm worried about the next person I'm worried about the the the malicious people I'm worried about the dangerous people who are coming next because all these tools can be used in an incredibly dangerous and scary way to control whole populations and I I referenced at the time and I'd forgotten the Yates poem uh slouching towards Bethlehem and I said there is a rough Beast slouching towards Bethlehem wa

iting to be born and of course they were like huh and I was like I can't explain but bad people are coming like I know they're coming they always come and this this technology is perfect for authoritarians and fascists and propagandists and you are pretending they're not coming and I know they are and they will not on your door and and you're not the problem but what you're doing so sloppily is the problem well on that positive note oh I really like the Vision Pro how about that I enjoy I wish w

e could keep going this is so fascinating but we are out of time everyone thank you so much for joining us Cara it's been a real pleasure thank you so much Sarah and thank you to our viewers for joining us here at Washington Post Live um please join us for other programming in the future and if you would like you can sign up for a Washington Post subscription getting a free trial by going to wo. stlive thank you again I'm Sarah Ellison