[Music] [Music] you speak of the south of the casein in Australia yeah well in Australia there was a man who had claimed infected three women and I think one woman died in the defense of the man I don't know if I don't know the details if he did it deliberately if he knew as I don't want to get into that and what the punishment should be but the question is is his defense was an absurdity but that the virus didn't exist the biggest problem of the HIV theory of AIDS is HIV there is a group of AID
S denialists that say the HIV does not exist and has never been isolated and which is as as far as it get you and your colleagues not only state that HIV does not cause AIDS but you take an even greater leap and say HIV does not exist is that correct oh it is partly correct we do not say that H if it doesn't exist it may exist but the presently available data does not prove its existence but how can you say that when world-renowned scientists like dr. Gallo and dr. Fauci say HIV does exist are y
ou telling me in the world that they're all wrong no what I what we're saying is there is evidence there that data in the scientific literature which is published scientists interpret data differently and we interpret evidence one way and they interpret in a different way so in our view the evidence does not prove the existence of HIV [Music] [Music] we've all seen pictures we've seen what some micrographs of HIV how can you say something that we see isn't there you didn't see electron micrograp
h of HIV what we see is electron micrograph of particles which look like retroviruses but it's one thing to look like and another thing is to be allows the one thing I don't understand is how can you question the existence of a virus when there was an international lawsuit against the United States government and Robert Gallo for stealing the French virus I mean it seems to me there must be a virus there if somebody stole it that's a problem and when no circumstances robogov we have stolen Monta
nez virus even if there was such a virus because what Montaigne sent to Gallo was super netted from his cultures and in the supernatant the virus stress don't last for too long and in fact they the practicals have to have notes on there or spikes on their surface to be infectious and these knobs are lost and in fact nobody has proven that they exist but even if they exist on HIV or the particles they're lost very rapidly so it is impossible for one 10 years from to have forgot to have stolen a v
irus from Anthony so can you prove to me that HIV doesn't exist I can I can show you what the evidence shows what what what I'm here for example presented because everybody except that Montaigne is a Discoverer of HIV and I can show you the evidence which Montaigne presented and claims to have proven the existence of HIV and I will explain to you why wantonness evidence does not prove the existence of HIV what do we mean by virus isolation or virus purification these are jargon words in virology
and they're not very precise they mean different things to different people now dr. Gallin doctor party talks a lot about isolation and purification can you tell me the differences between the to isolate wasn't all the virus yeah well you isolate a virus by finding the virus which causes a disease you purify a virus by making a lot of I mean just by purifying it so you get a pure virus okay I don't understand what the relationship they interchange the two and I was enticing it was the same thin
g or if it was two totally different no it depends on how they use okay okay can you explain the process of HIV isolation well I've didn't dr. Gallo do that I mean he actually isolated it so I mean why should I do all of this this is all textbook stuff you're asking me I'm not quite sure what's behind your question about isolation I don't want to be your textbook you know I kind of think to do the isolation is essentially getting the virus from the patient and being able to transmit this virus t
o another cell to reproduce infection and to have a continued supply of the virus and that's called an isolation purification is just obtaining the virus free of cellular contaminants or other contaminations but it doesn't mean necessarily that the virus is infectious [Music] virus isolation I would take to mean that you take some infected material like a blood sample from someone who you think or or believe may of HIV infection may already have symptoms of AIDS and you try and grow the virus fr
om that blood sample so you would put the blood sample into culture you would stimulate the lymphocytes to proliferate with various growth factors or cytokines and you would harvest the virus from the the culture medium you're growing it in you would spin out the cells separate the cells and the supernatant and you would look for the virus in the in the culture medium that needed to be a pure medium because you can use markers of the virus that tell you it's there such as the reverse transcripta
se enzyme so you can see evidence the virus without actually purifying particles in that very first paper from the French group published in May 1983 there were two things that appeared to class it amongst the retrovirus family one was reverse transcriptase activity and one was actually looking at virus particles with the electron microscope the title of the 1983 beta by Montana in his colleague is isolation or fertility for tropic retrovirus from a patient at risk of a quark noon deficiency syn
drome eight now the word isolation means to obtain something but to play something apart to obtain a substance separate from everything else apparently multi nearby isolation did not mean this but something totally different and I'll explain - what he meant by by isolation he did three main experiments the first experiment he took lymphocytes from a patient now is known as Peru and he cultured them who is many substance including pH a another growth factors where growth factors the assessment is
which make cell to multiply okay or to live it would - to stay alive in the culture and after 15 days he discovered where the Western script phase activity and they claim that these prove the existence of a retrovirus in very patient in a patient cells well every two days we were taking this European nation looking for the presence of the enzymes that transform RNA to DNA the reverse multiphase because we know that this enzyme is associated to virus particle so we were testing for this enzyme a
ctivity in stipulated what's so special are reverse transcription anytime you're searching for a new agent you want to have some simple measurement of the presence of that agent in times past you would put it on cells cell culture in the laboratory and suddenly these beautiful cells will start turning into dead cells it's a something's there and then you put that into electron microscope and look and you can find it all those are rather difficult things to use if there's something that the virus
produces in this culture you don't necessarily have to see all the dead so if you just can have take off some of the liquid that's growing in and test it and one thing you can test for retroviruses reverse transcriptase and it just happens to be that's a laboratory test available for it so you just take a little bit off put it into a chemical assay and you can do it very very simply because no matter if something that you can put a lot of specimens through and something that's simple to do so y
ou can really get a maybe not a direct picture of ours you can't see it but you can get evidence that is there like fingerprints then he took the lymphocytes which are originated from Bruce and lymph nodes she took these lymphocytes and culture them with the lymphocytes of a healthy blood donor and they're again detected reversal script says activity so motor needed family Western scripts activity in according to him this proof that the retrovirus who was there but the the only way to say the ex
istence of reverse the script a so the detection of reverse descriptives activity prove the retrovirus was there is only if reverse transcription was specific to retroviruses which is not the case in fact well today nearly everybody accepts that reverse transcription or a Western scripts activity is nonspecific to retroviruses in fact a present everybody accepts that the Western script transcription is present in all normal cells in fact fàbregas at the beginning of the 1970s Ogawa himself have
shown that normal cells when put in culture in their stimulated or their cottage which be with PHA they'll start having reverse transcriptase activity [Music] [Music] mata me put the Bruce cells in a culture into culture here the different growth factors including tha and after 15 days he detected through Western scripts activity however tha by itself in normal cell and this was known by beretta you see the principal OSA and gal approved it at the beginning of the 97 70s that PHA itself causes r
everse transcription in normal self so he puts something in the cell which was causing a reverse description and yet you say that this proves the existence of it over it reverse there so you're saying that what they found might just be the actual substance they put in the culture and not a virus definitely that is that is that is is there evidence why would they do that but as you see knew that in 1973 gal approved it at the beginning in 1972 I think Oscars paper I don't know now everybody accep
ts that reverse transcriptase activity is a characteristic of retroviruses but it's not specific to retroviruses but in all my interviews with scientists they all say that reverse transcription is unique to retroviruses and that's how they knew that there was a virus in their culture once you have produced you know if you produce something in the extracellular medium you can do actually several things one thing is that if we expect or suspect it's a retrovirus like htlv-1 the leukemia virus what
we can do is look for what we call reverse transcriptase activity the enzyme which is unique to these viruses yeah the scientific procedure was multifaceted I mean I had a good sized lab and so we had divided people up into different primary goals and I would meet daily I and the first goal was if a patient has fully developed aids forget risk groups at a time we didn't want to get into the risk of reader they have their days documented aids could we take their blood get their t-cells like we w
ould do with any just like the leukemias like we did with the leukemias the same protocols we did with leukemia take those T cells clean them up from other cells grow them with interleukin 2 our old friend and see if we could find any evidence of release of virus particles and if we were right that they would be retroviruses and how to do that was with a surrogate marker you don't use electron microscopy in those days except maybe one or two pictures just to confirm or to see the structure of th
is particular retrovirus the assay was reverse transcriptase well I don't know whom you interviewed but if you don't believe me go in ask Baltimore or veremos and I'm sure they will confirm that the reverse transcriptase activity is a characteristic of retroviruses but it's not specific to them what do you mean when you say reverse transcription is a characteristic of retroviruses but not specific oh let me give an example here is the characteristic of humans you know black white or yellow we al
l have hair but it's not specific because there are many animals for example cats dogs which also have here in finding a hair in a room it doesn't mean that a human being is fair or a cat or dog a retrovirus the only ones that neighbors come tonight ah no there are other forms of reverse transcription that are used in various various ways inside the cell for instance the ends of chromosomes are made by a reverse transcription process that's how they're maintained stable the there is reverse tran
scription in the inheritance of all of ourselves which comes about from endogenous genetic elements in the cells or in the cells of our ancestors because once that Meishan gets into our into ourselves into our genomes it stays there forever so it could be that we've inherited information from monkeys or from other animals that are that are in our lineage and so no reverse transcription is actually very widespread something like 50% of the DNA in our cells comes about by reverse transcription yes
oh wow okay 22% going back to I thought it was 1.5 to 2 percent the 50% the retroviral DNA curvature viral genes in our DNA what biological functions it is here now we got to make a distinction when I said 50% I'm saying 50% of the DNA came about by reverse transcription but it's not all retroviruses lots of it is just repeated elements that are there as what we generally consider to be parasitic DNA DNA which is other people call it selfish DNA DNA which is in there because it's able to copy i
tself and reintegrate itself in other places and this is something that's going on all the time and it builds up why do you think they used reverse transcription to prove the existence of a virus if they knew that it wasn't specific to viruses I don't know it's as simple as this I don't know in fact they went one step further in the second experiment they have taken the cells from the very patient and mix them with cells from a normal blood donor and in that culture again they could pH a another
growth factors substances which make the cell to survive and grow and again they found reverse transcriptase activity in this time they claim that the finding of ester script is activity in the second culture proves that the virus was transmitted from the patient cells to the normal donor cells any fact they say that this proof isolation of HIV but they must have used some other criteria to state that they had a new virus there is no other criteria in the fifth they hear the third experiment bu
t in the first a second experiment that's how they are described in in their paper it was the first experiment reverse transcriptase activity the second experiment the Western escrito activity they are the only evidence they have published so in the process in the second experiment so in both experiments they said the culture substances which artificially caused reverse transcription yes yes it says amino just one of them pH a myself it will cause a veteran scripture in normal cells in non infec
ted cells what are your problems with the third experiment well the problems first of all again they took they super melted the fluid from their second experiment and put it in a culture which contains umbilical cord lymphocytes and in that culture they also found reverse transcriptase activity again the reverse transcriptase activity they already use their this PHA in other substances which can cause the race transcription in any culture if the conditions arrived then we have the virus particle
s they have published electron micrographs showing virus-like particles budding from the cells and released in the supernatant but just seeing virus-like particles is not proof that the viruses that they are viruses because you can have values like particles and they are not viruses in fact the third problem with the virus with the particle is that they use umbilical cord lymphocytes which originate from the center into the titles know the 70s that they release virus-like particle in the hem rev
erse transcriptase activity so find them in this culture it's not proof they originated from Montana station in Montana's paper they publish electron micrographs of HIV no we see pictures of the virus we see pictures these particles are in as I said in umbilical cord lymphocytes in a biblical called lymphocytes originated from placenta and the words already a lot of evidence by this time that placenta can release virus-like particles what's more is Montaigne when he described the particles he ha
s seen she said these particles are typical type C particles virus system the retroviruses are classified in different categories one of which is type C particle and they said that virus we have seen is a typical type c particle typical science type c particles have been many times published in the 1970s from norma placenta in fact most of the presenters was shown to have the Western script day's activity in typical type c particles so finding this particle there even if they were virus they cou
ld have been just originating from the normal presenter so finding a particle same time reversal script it's activity in the umbilical cord lymphocyte culture does not prove that the patient was infected with a virus the two main things that told you you had a retrovirus was the reverse transcriptase activity and the fact that the cells are today and then we immediately call our guys was responsible for explain microscopy and said please could you look at them under the microscope whether you ca
n see burrows Akiko and if it resembled to a retrovirus okay okay and what what did you see what did you guys see when you looked under the electron microscope and after after quite it was very difficult because it was only few cells infected so it was a very difficult task for him to find the earth cells that was just producing this particle but finally found it and he found one metal side with a burden particle typical of retrovirus and very close from this cells one complete Mathieu particle
that for Sandburg tourism and in that paper he had only one electron micrograph and the virus could be identified as sort of a retrovirus but it could have also could have altered in the arena virus now these are specifics the only important for experts but when we saw that photo we said suggestive but not convincing so I've seen these publications stamp-sized images it's a nuisance it's a nuisance you do not really see much and I do not know how good electron microscopy was really done but they
probably should have done a bit more and then they would they would have been very safe and electron microscopy is an art and in science art and science and nobody is able to judge what electron micro post microscope is is really doing you have to have experts discussing these things sometimes people are far from the microscope they do not understand structure and function they like to have a nice image that or they do not understand sometimes a better danger I could imagine if montagnier would
have pushed his structures he finds much of HIV a bit more he would have been more convincing would I be right in saying that from the pictures of Londo and culture you can't prove what virus you found yet of course electron microscopy is not sufficient to prove you a very device it's clear you need the other characteristic like the density the Western theatre activity the key a key on dime which is well that I was only associated vehicle viruses no that's how we describe it first you know we d
idn't describe the electron microscopy as the described universe assisted activities pose buoys were territory but here also we back it aside when some people from yellow slab saying are you sure you have a retrofitted activity they could it be a signal generator in LA you know get this kind of question so Montaigne she wanted to show not only that he had a retrovirus but but the very true virus was new was not one of the two other retroviruses which God claimed to have discovered at the end of
the 1970s in the beginning of 1980s in leukemic patients for this first of all he said he purified HIV he obtained by purification we agree she said in Montana himself admit that to prove that a virus is a new virus then you have to show that it has proteins which were not present in any other retrovirus and to do that he said you must purify the virus he admitted that in 1997 but you must purify the and in 1983 he claimed to have done exactly that to have purified the HIV particle now we made h
ave differences as to what isolation mean but when comes to purify Haitian there is no disagreement we buy purification they mean to obtain particles that are various particle separate from anything else which at least from anything else which contains proteins and RNA now when this virus is in this tribulation it's not purified okay because the cells are releasing plenty of things not only the virus specific cellular protein so on okay so that means that in the supernatant you have a mixture of
everything including the virus then you have to purify okay okay this is a second step then you try to purify the virus from all these mess [Music] when we started the early 80s we we are trying to purify the virus by up a sucrose gradient retrovirus particles are purified using a laboratory procedure developed over 40 years ago known as density gradient centrifugation the cell culture that is undertaken by the scientist to produce work of all quantities of virus results in a liquid suspension
made up of cells macroscopic and microscopic cellular debris virus particles if any are present in culture fluids this suspension is spun in a low-speed centrifuge which creates a sediment consisting of the cells and heavier solid material and above the sediment a liquid supernatant containing the much light at microscopic material if retrouvaille particles are present this is where they will be distributed next a small portion of the supernatant is removed and very gently placed on top of a sol
ution of sucrose this sucrose solution is prepared in a special way such that its density increases gradually from the top to the bottom of the tube in this diagram the layers of different densities are shown as discrete bands but in the real world of the laboratory these layers gradually merge into one another purification by this technique relies on the fact that particulate matter in the supernatant sample will gradually sink down through the sucrose solution until it reaches a place in the g
radient where the sucrose solution and the particulate matter have the same density when an object gets to this portion of the gradient it cannot go any further it is exactly like trying to force a tennis ball to stay put at the bottom of a bucket of water as soon as you let it go it bounces back up to where it wants to float according to its density in water this means that in a sucrose density gradient all objects of the same density will eventually congregate at the same place in the gradient
in the case of retrovirus particles this is where the density of the sucrose reaches 1.16 grams per mil because the particulate matter in Colten supernatant is so light and tiny the passage of the sample through the gradient has to be speeded up by spinning the tube in another kind of centrifuge known as an ultracentrifuge this machine rotates a tube at speeds between forty to sixty thousand revolutions per minute and produces a force many thousands of times gravity in this diagram we have assu
med the supernatant sample contains retrovirus particles and you can see them gradually moving through the gradient and being arrested at the one point one six grams per mil density here is a short demonstration to illustrate how a sucrose density gradient solution can be used to separate objects of different densities in this case beans and macadamia nuts in this simplified version we will use a tube and density gradient consisting of water with the density of one gram per mil in sucrose at a d
ensity of approximately 1.5 grams per mil first we prepare our sucrose solution by dissolving sucrose ordinary table sugar in water then we make our to density layer solution by carefully pouring our lower density layer the water on top of the denser sucrose layer next we place our sample on the top of the two layer solution since these objects are so much larger and heavier than virus particles gravity is more than sufficient to propel them through the gradient in fact as you can see in this ex
periment the separation is virtually instant there is no need to spin the glass in a centrifuge the result is one density band consisting of nothing but beans and another density band consisting of nothing but macadamias in other words these objects have been successfully purified what may not be obvious is to part your eyes play in this experiment without looking at the two density bands which is equivalent to performing the electron microscopy you will not be able to tell if any objects are pr
esent what is the morphology and whether or not they are pure or what's the purpose of the purification then well to to make sure you have a real virus you know so Montaigne claimed to prove that he had a particle to hit proteins which are not present in any other retrovirus he purified the virus but he did not publish any electron micrographs of the purified material to prove you know you see in his believing and they claimed that they had purified material but there were no electron micrograph
s in it this is one of the condition where virus in you see in Schenck loserman put it in ninety ninety seventy three you must have picture of the purified virus in show that the material contains nothing else but particles with the same physical characteristics but no such pictures were published is it important to photograph where the virus band in the gradient yeah because that whole biology has also some some history these are established techniques if you go to see type articles that can be
easily bended and they are stable and if you think HIV is another new retrovirus you have to go the same way just to be acknowledged is a retro biologist dealing visiting virus in a proper way Hans Calderon he said it's important to photograph the density gradient where viruses band why is that an important step because this is I mean electron microscopy for example it's always very important to see the morphology of the virus particle is in the region of the density gradient okay where you thi
nk you have a virus free side and I will say in good shape if you check after by electron microscopy the electron microscopy will tell you okay you have the right structure of the virus particle with all the envelope which is on the surface of the membrane okay because very often when you make purification you utter all this process making sucrose gradient and simplification it's a forces you know on the virus pressure the viruses and it doesn't like it too much especially for HIV where the enve
lope proteins which are anchored on on the membrane are not covalently anchored so that means that very easily you can lose the envelope protein now the gp120 yeah so it's important to check then on the electron microscope whether the structure your virus is the one that you are looking for with all its viral protein the M block protein structure on watching everything you have the right chip the right structure and it also shows you what isn't there correct exactly also so you're saying Montini
never proved the existence of a new retrovirus because he didn't photograph in the test tube mmm as I said he says it is essential to purify the virus to prove that they are they it has proteins which are not present in any other virus but no only way to prove that you have a new virus but he did not publish pictures so since he did not publish pictures we don't know what he had in his purified virus mayhem it is possible if he had purified virus but this possibility didn't find anything there
and that's what we've been asking from the very beginning why there were no pictures which are essential to to prove purification when purifying gelda bloom tell me it's important to photograph the density gradient where viruses band why is that a crucial step well together bromide or I'm weary say a good electron microscope is in Berlin and actually it gave me the best picture of my virus yes well of course in order to to puree five years to make this Chicago and the city equilibrium to a sharp
and and if you take that shot annual almost pure not completely pure because they are cell by cell vehicles which have the same density is why we don't see any picture you are a mixture of cell vesicles cellular vesicles and particles so in salem is it very important or is not really important for us is not important but some people say if you don't complete radiation or do you know the disease cause is not cooled by something else the silence them how come you guys didn't just show pictures fr
om the gradient instead of just a culture we first show it from the culture that's risk by simplification you know but not sequel general by making a pellet of the rice you could look at it also this way but youíve course you have many impurities you know coming from the cell the security i don't have there are tests to sparta Spira fight the virus but again even in the band of realize you have also cellular vehicles which are the same density but not the same look for the electronical school an
d you saying that in the purified bandung area there can be other contaminants and that's why pictures are essential they yes in the purified the method we use you can get by this method you can get material which is which is not viral but it has proteins if cellular fragments you know the cell muskan with this method he is using could be at the same place and then you can have their only cellular fragment so you can't have a mixture of cellular fragments and viruses but it's imported this extre
mely is crucial to have a picture if you separate by density 1.15 gram and you have a lot of ridiculous stuff inside not related to virus death witters reaction product of the cell you have a lot of host cell constituents in that band that's not too nice so are there other particles that can look like retroviruses in that in that band yes in that material you can have similar fragments and they have proteins and they have RNA which retroviruses have and in fact they may even look like little vir
us particles so it is important to have it is crucial to have an electron micrograph of the material for for us for example in from any any other scientists to believe what we are claiming when you peer for HIV there are some challenges because the contempt it's contaminated with cellular debris but I said and particles that look like retroviruses but are not infected yes I said how do you distinguish between what is infective and what isn't you cannot Montaigne gives very himself gives a very g
ive crucial importance to this band because he said if the particles do not bend at the 1.15 gram per movement then they are not retro virus particles [Music] the world accepted those papers and the pictures that he did present as being evidence of any virus well their world accepted his pictures I endorse accepted the quantanium proved the existence of HIV but this is what we have not accepted from the very beginning we've been questioning we've been asking in scientific papers and today neithe
r mutiny nobody anybody else has responded to these questions isn't there a chance that you're wrong since everybody concedes that Martin eight did isolate HIV and purify it who seen it we're giving you the evidence and it's to me this evidence into my colleagues this evidence does not prove the existence of HIV now most of the people may have not even read the remote Emir paper in it they accept that age Mantegna prove their existence of HIV we may not forget that doctors are very busy and with
you it is very hard for everyone to go and study in detail all the claims you have to have to really put a lot of effort to put all the things together but it's been 26 years and Montini published his papers in 26 years billions of dollars have been spent on HIV research so doesn't the fact that isn't isn't monthly as paper kind of antiquated I mean hasn't it's improving that HIV does exist in the past 25 26 years well nobody has presented any better evidence for the existence of HIV then Monta
igne in gamma gamma presented similar evidence apart the difference between government NGOs that Gallo used instead of umbilical lymphocyte t-cells he used the leukemic cell line but otherwise the depth they publish the same findings in their findings today still even today are the best evidence if anyone has presented for the existence of HIV let's go to the tested wetted Monson they find in the purified band when Tamiya took with proteins from the bend which he set on the materials he said was
purified HIV and then he reacted them who is Sarah from his patient and in the purified material he found three proteins which reacted with antibodies which were present in this arrow of his patient pa T P 45:41 now and P 24 he said 41 was a cellular protein which contaminated his virus made no mention of DAT and he said P 24 was viral the question is why only P 24 viral in not P 80 from an antibody and is a reaction you cannot prove the origin of the antibody or the but the protein and he trie
d he did not have evidence that P 24 was coming from a particle effect we do know that the way any particles there and then he said he define it by this reaction at P 24 was viral and the antibody showed Maura this cannot be done scientifically HIV I said they have nine protein yes from the Montini I only found one protein yes in his purified culture that's one of the big question if what he had there what he called purified virus it was HIV and so it will have had all the proteins which are vir
uses with HIV has nine or ten proteins and the patient either paid antibodies which reacted with the b-24 should have should have been also antibody to all these other proteins and yet she did not have the patient didn't have any antibodies to react to the other proteins you don't know if he had any of the other proteins so this is a big question you cannot have a virus which has only one protein the question is now if that was a protein if he had purified vowels where were the other proteins an
d if the patient was infected with the virus where they have antibodies how can we we have only one protein when you an antibody it is not possible but a night montenay who considered p24 the only HIV protein and 41 has been a cellular protein Gallo in 1984 conceded 41 with more specific HIV protein and not cellular protein so maybe Martin a was just wrong and Gallo is right unless you know that you have a purified virus unless you have evidence there was a purified virus you don't know which on
e is right because God did not have any electron micrographs Gallo could have said that 41 is HIV if and only if he had published electron micrographs and show that what he called purified virus here nothing else but virus-like particles now the next criticism is that Montanez particles he said that his particles had typical type C viruses then in 1984 he said that his particles or type D particles in leve at the same time say that word type D particles gamma again in 1984 said that the Departme
nt of hissing were belonging to the family to which his previous viruses existed so they in their type C particles but retroviruses garu claimed to have discovered do type C particles and then from about 1980 85-86 most of the HIV expects start saying that HIV is at lentivirus belonging to a totally different sub formerly of retroviruses and and even today there is still disagreement as to what even as what subfamily inspaces the HIV particles belong anywhere you travel in the world you're going
to find somebody that generally looks like somebody else and when I look at electron micrographs all viruses look the same to me so is there really a difference between whether it's a C or a D or a lentiviruses of that big a deal well there is a big deal because they belong to different according to retrovirology they belong to different not only two different species but two different sub families and this is not different than saying that people think that they see you know one of the same th
ing in yet what they see some see a human being other see chimpanzee another see a gorilla the difference is that much we all belong to the same family chimp is a humans and gorillas belong to the same family all the retroviruses belong to the retrovirus family but we are in different spaces and so are they HIV particles what a trained eye be able to look under the microscope and easily distinguish between a Type C a type deana lentivirus that's what they say that's all day electron microscopy s
ay using the electron microscope how easy is it for you to differentiate between all these retroviruses because they all look to someone like me again trend idea they all look the same Oh certainly not I will be able to teach you with you half an hour we have made nice summary on these structural differences you can measure and if you start measuring so I will nucleoprotein that's the complex of the genome and some 14 where is it in the virion in the budding in the immature particle how is it or
ganized is a mature particle versus in that your pocket what about a glycoprotein notes these are questions that can be quantitatively assess so you really can make an objective diagnosis so for someone like you easy to collagen yeah so that the cone-shaped core yeah is very identifiable it looks very different in a sea type is that right yeah absolutely hmm leads to the trend I know you will see it how come in your opinion did gallo and Montini a cc type instead of when T when I looked in under
their electron microscopes because they had to integrate all they saw what they wanted to see ya know still the purification is the biggest program the purification once if you don't have purified if you have no good purification as Montaigne said if you tell me what you go to your purification to be able to characterize the virus even if we had if one assumes that montagnier and gallo and the particles are literal particles the Western script ace is specific to retroviruses to say that you hav
e a unique retrovirus you must characterize you must its proteins in its RNA you must show that these have proteins in RNA which is not present in other electro viruses and why in your mind is there such inconsistencies in identifying the virus among the experts the particles I don't know we cannot say that have a new retrovirals unless you'd show that they has unique particle mick proteins in unique RNA and to show that you must purify the virus there is no other way if you say that these prote
ins in this RNA are HIV RNA in HIV protein you must somehow obtain them from the virus particles but because the viral particles are so small the next best thing is to obtain them from a mass of material which contains nothing else but it revives particles well when I talk to Fauci Wang Stahl she said that you don't necessarily have to take pictures you can go to the culture and look for viruses budding as evidence I've released a virus yes as I said true budding and with the providers like part
icle just seeing them in the culture there is no proof that they are retro virus that is no evidence take pictures from the culture is no proof that they are virus and certainly you cannot prove just looking that there are so many things there in the culture which also contain proteins which also contain RNA and contain DNA to say that HIV has nine proteins in HIV has a genome a unique gene oh nine genes you must take your mask of evidence that these proteins originated from the viral particles
and to do that you must take these particles out from the culture you've got to have them out you must purify them you must obtain them separate from everything else which contains proteins she said there were problems that when you spin the particles under the high speed Jennifer yes that they often distort or they lose the envelope or they break apart and that's why it's it's almost impossible to purify viruses no there are many many pictures Oh electron micrographs of retroviruses which can b
e purified and our control including this one elusive coma virus when you take somebody to to code for opportunity suit you must have evidence that the blood originated from the father and from the child there is no other way you must have proved that they originated from the fandom from the child to compare the DNA the same way if you want to say these proteins are from HIV you must have them coming from HIV but the particles are too small so the best next thing is to purify viruses this is not
me who says it I mean this is all the terminologies including Montaigne including men including very few see that is you know this is so simple so you must have purification that is the only way you see this what HIV retrovirus is given a matter of a hundred to one hundred and twenty nanometers they have a cone-shaped coat they have the lateral bodies and they have not whereas when we see a HIV being that diagrammatically represented you see there there's some spikes coming out from the particl
e in these knobs are extremely important for reflectivity again according to all the HIV expert if you hit the knobs a crucial they are essential for infection no not no infection and there is no infection the particles cannot be viruses so a complex process of an interaction of the outer protein of the virus called the envelope with molecules on the surface of the cell are essential for virus to enter the cell we speak of entry we essentially mean the guts or the internal component of the virus
that contains its genetic information in the form of RNA in certain other proteins today nobody has proven the existence of note in the cell free particles obviously when we first were working on the cause of AIDS we had to be very broadly have our ability to include a whole variety of different potential organs organisms that could cause it what was helpful in the in the limiting of our search were the cases in hemophiliacs where the material that's used to treat hemophilia comes from blood or
plasma a subcomponent of blood that is sold or donated into the system and a purification processes is used to take that large volume of plasma and specifically pull out the anti haemophiliac factors that actually can treat the hemophiliacs now in that process that the one thing you want to we have to realize is that material is given intravenously to the human feeli acts to treat them and you have to have it very clean you don't want to have any infectious agents in them if you can avoid it an
d one of the easiest ways to do any of preparation of a drug is to filter it now we have these wonderful modern filters where you can work on your your drug and then the last the last step before you put in the bottle pass it through a filter that filters out all infectious agents now I say all meaning that the filter can only filter out those that the filter can catch which is the bigger agents that bacteria and parasites are much bigger than viruses and those filters and B will filter out all
the bacteria and make it quote sterile and as you growth bacteria from it so but yet we knew that after this process that they were still getting this disease which could have been caused by a virus of bacterial or parasitic disease or whatever but since all the larger bacteria and parasites are eliminated in these filters then you can assume that the disease that you're looking at is caused by a virus and is it also filter out the infected cells so is it just pure free-floating HIV virus the fa
ctor 8 material is cell free so it's a only liquid material and that that liquid material would came could contain many infectious agents from the donors of all these literally there's hundreds of donors in each of these batches and when you filter it out you filter out all the bigger organisms that is bacteria and parasites you're only left with viruses that go through the filter I reckoned that a virus that would survive the purification of clotting factors from human blood was more likely to
be a virus without a cell membrane a small virus like a parvo virus and I would not have put a retrovirus at the top of the list and yet when HIV was discovered it was indeed a wretch of those I think my scientific reasoning was perfectly correct but I was deluding myself nonetheless if there's something most about the effective process well I didn't realize how unhappy vacation the clotting factors is we were talking about purification those clotting factors are anything but pure and they were
tainted with this virus they were tainted with hepatitis B virus with hepatitis C virus which also was not discovered until long after HIV was discovered so HIV was just one of several viruses that was passed in clotting factors a huge ISA paper which was published by several authors which is of course a given room and they say they have found that all the average after immediately after release after the knobs are released as particles into the fluid there are point five knots per particle and
they said given this point five not they may be false positive that is where no knobs at all [Music] the knobs here looks like little knobs everywhere you okay there's a concert you have some dirt of course in the same culture and these would be not from a particle that is cut conventionally he is the same that's my interpretation so it my interpretation but here's your knobs here might be some there might be some dirt here sure that is dirt from preparation but I don't these look like knives to
o coming out of this big one yeah you know they're glycoproteins also on yourself okay no we have to differentiate between them if we would like to go for the dimensions we have to use in you know electron microscopy to make it take it as a glycoprotein or it's something different in in a paper published in in 2003 the author state the cost of GPA country into 80 that is the knobs do not phone spikes on the surface of him as is commonly described in the literature we suggest the spikes knob upse
t by negative staining electron microscopy may be an artifact of the penetration of heavy metal stains between the envelope proteins where exactly darling that means that despite some people claims that there are not on the HIV particles these authors say that the particles have no notes in plain language this is a paper published 2006 in nature here it is SIV simian immunodeficiency virus and in these particles you can see many knobs but when you come to the electron Capgras on what is meant to
be HIV particles there are hardly any notes in fact we can see only one there but you can see the same thing down there and you don't know if there are not all that is some artifact there in fact the waters call them putative putative knobs or putative means supposed supposedly HIV not so the waters do not have even today proof that the HIV particles have knobs which are crucial for infection even if we admit in even we accept that there are not they are point five notes immediately per particl
e on the average immediately after they're released they are lost even those small number is lost very rapidly according to Yeldon book and this knots been lost so rapidly in age in in fact I ate preparation taking a long time from the time it is the blood is taken to the time factor it is prepared is a long time and even after it is prepaid mistake on the bench for months before it is used so it is impossible for hemophilia X the fact I aid to contain and it affects shows HIV particle even if H
IV agrees I wanted to ask you about hemophiliacs because they had self free plasma it was just the virus but the virus sheds its membranes within 24 hours so how one thing we can go is how is it able to actually infect the t-cells yes it's a question but we have to know that all the function of the blood could be infectious and there is some virus bound to it that cell which could be released also in the blasts after treatment evacuations somebody's done to read schedules of it so perhaps there
are more virus when you process the blood Mobile's could come in the plasma okay and desires could be protected by the plasma proteins from denaturation is one one thing possible one possibility the other is the quality of the host Emily acts are fragile main transfuse many times the immune system also is depressed before they get infected with HIV so they are prone to HIV infection because of their immune system weakness okay so combining this with the fact that the virus could exist also infor
med which are metal Selina which probably are more resistant then we think for the usual particles could explain yes it ones or they were not two plus neck oppressed by proteins you know that's possible that fact I could mycoplasma more resistant perhaps I could as well envelope would be more least underdeveloped look okay all right but it is I'm not dis not based on solid data of course this is just something you see the obvious assumption to it you all right this is an we have to explain why e
motions have been so easy infected with plasma products for you the entire existence of HIV rests upon the fact that there are no pictures of the purified gradient is that correct it is part of it that is the most crucial evidence which you need if there is have these pictures which prove that these are in the purified virus they are well the cold purified virus they're worse like particles then the whole experiment in that the existence of HIV is finished and you say and today there is no pictu
res of purified virus today there is no pictures of purified virus it steadily montaner do not publish it gathered in a publish it levy do not publish such pictures arrived in the publishers pictures and the only pictures which have been published is in fact this is admitted by the franco-german researchers in in 1997 when the first attempts the first pictures of what is called purified HIV were published by two groups one from the United States and one in a franco-german study you said in 1997
they did try to purify HIV is that correct yes and he said they were successful they are not successful you know what is more important these bosses they they accepted or they admitted but by 1997 there is no evidence for purification and here it is this is from the franco-german study virus to be used for biochemical in serological analysis or as an imaging that this is an antigen is frequently prepared by centrifugation through sucrose gradients and they said in none of these studies the purit
y of the virus preparation been verified so by 1997 there is no proof that HIV has been purified they try so they accept this as I said will be nothing this for the very beginning to have some evidence for HIV purification and this also trying to present what they did their best to purify HIV and here is their evidence this is the franco-german study in the head material which is meant to represent purified HIV the top in the middle is obtained is material obtained from infected cultures and it'
s meant to represent purified HIV the bottom part is material obtained in the similar manner from non-infected cultures and as you can see the errors they said represent the HIV particles first of all this cannot be said to be purified virus as you can see they are not purified particles in fact only the particles which they they put the arrows are said to be particles which look like HIV the rest all cellular fragments or called vesicles in the in the the material which is obtained from the non
-infected cultures you can see even there there are some particles which may look like the 1hs erode so it is significant significant that the waters do not call this material purified HIV in fact they call it purified vesicles from infected 89 cells the top in activated cells so the authors of me that this cannot be considered purified HIV with all the effort they put they could not obtain purified HIV it is also important that the the the particles which are arrows as representing HIV they don
't have all the morphological characteristics attributed to HIV there is no evidence for not in fact even their diameter is higher than what is considered to be the editor viral particles the size really matter when humans very invited the data because all the woodenness this in the franco-german is the size is there larger but not as large as in the in American evidence for purification here is the effort by the American researchers in purifying HIV with their results and as you can see they di
d not were not able to obtain purified HIV and again the clavicles which are arrow it in a set to represent HIV they do not have all them for logical characteristics attributed to lentiviruses and in fact they don't have the knobs they don't have cone shaped call you cannot see there they don't have lateral bodies which are they should be in HIV and most importantly their diameter is too they're too large the average diameter of the of the particle is 220 234 in nantes diameter less than 160 jus
t by taking their diameter it is impossible we the particles which I live at us HIV to be HIV is the size also important in determining what you're looking at yes think about the viruses can be as big as a fox viruses up to screw you on that meter HIV up to 150 so smallest autonomously towing Wireless will be circa bars just 15 oh wow nano meter so what's the smallest HIV particle ever been up I think it's something and 120 to 150 no these are fixed morphological entities they don't change they
don't rate that's that's a huge thing and helping you differentiate whether it's HIV yeah yeah the size of a structure is very important to make the diagnosis now in the particles which are labeled by base and his colleagues has been HIV then the the absolutely necessary condition is for the material which was obtained from from very infected cultures to have proteins which are not present in the material which was obtained from non affected cultures is this but this does not seem to be the case
and effect based in his colleagues have come with this evidence they took the proteins from all the three bends the head from the two infected cultures or the would recall infected cultures in from the non-infected cultures and here are the proteins from the non-infected cultures which they are putting a strip here are the proteins from the two infected cultures as you can see if you look at this or there is a difference but the difference between the the strip's is only quantitative that is we
have these bends in all the street only there is less here similarly with all the other proteins in some of them in fact they are exactly the same so by looking at these pictures with proteins which existed in the purified material the HIV purified material any the material which was obtained from the manufacture cultures contain the same proteins which means that none of these cultures contained HIV as I said if the cultures which contain they say contain HIV which massive head proteins which
are not present in the non-infected cultures and yet this is not the case the proteins all the proteins are found which are found in the infected with so-called infected cultures they are also found in the non affected cultures some of them in smaller quantities but nonetheless they are there the difference may be just because the way the cultures were conducted the American authors labeled some of the proteins in this P 6 P 7 T 1780 24 a label at s HIV proteins and these two proteins that is pr
oteins which are around 32 and around 41 they were labeled as several proteins no label is put in the proteins which head molecular wage higher than 41 yet there are many HIV proteins which have molecular weight now why they do not label them first all the proteins which are around 41 in 32 and on HIV they cannot be HIV proteins with molecular weight 41 around 41 a molecular weight of 32 around 432 we ask best why the label these other three proteins as HIV and he said that they put this label b
ecause that's what the reviewer asked them but they did not have evidence themselves the way HIV proteins he stated today they were a cherry person he stated that they did not obtain themselves but the reviewer asked them to label them as HIV proteins and he said the reviewer was right we label them HIV if you specifically state they have no evidence of murasia occasionally they do not have evidence yes yesterday yes in this in this experiment they did not obtain evidence in this experiment they
did not obtain evidence that this protein to HIV but they label them HIV because the reviewer asked them [Music] [Music] so the question is why they do not label the proteins higher than 41 for the math there are some good reason for it first of all many HIV expects not maybe not all of them but many HIV expects except that the protein of 120 in a hundred and sixty are polymers of p41 that is there 41 joined together 341 joined together in a made 124 41 are joined together in a make your hand w
ritten 60 they admit all the proteins above above 24 there is evidence that the protein number 24,000 molecular weight of cellular proteins and they also know that the protein so is molecular weight more than the p17 P 6 P 7 their subunits of proteins with a higher molecular weight so now we are left with one protein P 24 we come back now what is 24 or to answer that question we have to to go to an interview which Montaigne gave to the French investigative journalism jemelle tehy jemelle t he as
ked Montaigne why they didn't publish any electron micrographs of the material which they said represented purified virus in mutiny responded we found some particles but they did not have the morphology typical of retroviruses Jamel T he insisted to to find why how it was possible that they do not publish when they claim that they have purified it and then his injury in the purified virus they didn't have typical even even retrovirus like particles less HIV and much less purified montenay repeat
ed I repeat we did not purified when he was asked if gamma purified it in Montaigne responded I do not know if he got really purified I don't believe so Jamel - he has Montaigne doing pictures on the purified Pro profession exists Montaigne responded yes of course heavy we published montenay I could not tell you we have some somewhere that is not of interest not of any interest or through asset or very great interests is crucial if you don't have them there is no way you can prove the existence
of HIV then we are Scavo Mota me subsequently publish many in pictures of purified HIV particles as of course we did in our first paper you have no need to worry the evidence obvious in over helming oh there was no pictures of purified virus in 110 years in goddess's 1984 papers or any other of godlessness publications going back to 1983 when trying to prove the existence of a new virus why was purification important what important to put to prepare kids for antibody detection ok because we want
ed this diagnosis yet to be as specific as possible ok if you use a preparation with of vows which is not purified of course you will be taken to body to everything not only against to the virus but also against all the proteins that are produced in the supernatant ok now this all these pictures here yeah are these often culture all film culture alright you have any from the gradient yeah those 80% of dirt how 80% of dirt yeah interval I didn't like that but it was necessary for also for us to c
ontrol because this house in 85 I already established Eliza antigen material for testing people there was nothing commercially available but we had to purify we had to look at materials that was used for the Eliza 80% dirt okay the three tools again jemelle tehy interview it Charles Dodger which was the electron microscope is an episode Institute and he in his response he said what in the purified virus they had only several debrief they never had virus which means that the P 24 protein originat
ed from the material which contained not America virus particles much less purified virus 2001 the EMS was found last year melody never sorry yes yes he had we they never sent any virus-like particles much less purified virus in fact what the hell there was cellular debris all alike longer what was the purpose of the purification well to to make sure you have a real virus you know [Music] [Music] the p24 originated from a material which did not even have virus-like particles much less purified v
irus so finally good yes had only several degrees which means you cannot have a better evidence the p24 is a cellular protein cannot be HIV if it originated from a material which contains only several fragments it has to be a cellular protein now even if we assume that p24 is an HIV protein in that montenay discovered the first one protein virus this creates even a bigger problem this is because retroviruses have an enzyme called reverse transcriptase which is a protein that's why they are calle
d retroviruses their name derives from this protein if they don't have this protein if we don't have this enzyme the virus cannot be retrovirus that will be like having an object we do not have any wings and yet you still call it an airplane now we know that in his experiments montenay found revenge transcriptase activity and on the basis of this activity he claimed to have proven infection of Bru and his cell cultures with HIV as well as the textual transmission in isolation of HIV since b-24 i
s not a reverse transcriptase protein as you can see from the picture it means that all modern yi did was prove was a whole new all along the vessel flip tails activity is not specific to retroviruses under the right conditions it can be detected in all cells infected with a retrovirus or non infected with a retrovirus [Music] if there are no HIV proteins there can be no HIV genome what montagnier Gallo called HIV genome is nothing more than a form of RNA known as adenine reach RNA which they fo
und the 1.1 C's gram per mil vent among other RNAs in DNA's despite effect that God will never publish prove that the been contained retrovirus particle in Montana admitted it did not have any they call this RNA HIV RNA it's even worse gardania's fàbregas 90-72 that a denial reach RNA is not specific to retroviruses this type of RNA can be found in any cells which are synthesizing proteins in any case the existence of HIV and even its causative role in AIDS were both accepted well before any gen
omic studies were published today we have not yet proof for the existence of any of the HIV proteins and if you don't have proof of the existence of other proteins you cannot have proof for the existence of the virus what's the purpose of the purification and well two to make sure you have a real values you know how come you guys didn't just show pictures from the gradient we first show it from the culture that's a risk by simplification about not sequel going on from the pictures along the line
culture you can't prove what virus we found yet of course electron microscopy is not sufficient to to prove you a very tall Isis cream you need other characteristic like the density the vertical scattered activity the key [Music] [Music] you we didn't describe the electron microscopy as we described the investigated activities course approve it whether it's oil no reverse transcription is actually very widespread something like 50% of the DNA in our cells comes about by reverse transcription wh
en I said 50% I'm saying 50% of the DNA came about by reverse transcription but it's not all retroviruses the problem is that they detected noms they didn't they detected nonspecific phenomena burgos transcription particles we've seen on the problems of particles and antigen antibody reactions so you can't take a whole lot of things that might be something and turn them into that subject that's the problem I mean if you're walking down the stick into a an empty space and you find an engine block
and a fan belt and no generator lying on the ground what do you say you've got you know what you've got is that it's in a little car it could have been a boat could it be a plane it could it be something someone uses on a farm to lift brain up can be all those things you can't you can't make something specific at all other things at a non-specific so they didn't please a lot of nonspecific n just preferred to believe that this is what they'd sell [Music] what Montaigne did is similar to a fishe
rman throwing his net into the ocean pulling it back look at the gate finds no fish and yet he claims that not only that he has fish but he has nothing else but fish and all of the same kind HIV [Music] you
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