The Middle Eastern Stereotypes Tala Ashe is Tired of Seeing | Famous Cast Words | ALL ARTS TV

She said, "I think it's going to be really great out there for you because of 9/11." [ Gasps ] Yeah. ♪♪ Welcome to "Famous Cast Words." I'm Lynne Marie Rosenberg. I am here today at the home of actor and activist Tala Ashe. You might know Tala from the DC Comics television show "Legends of Tomorrow," or from the recent Atlantic Theater Company production of "English." You might not know Tala from the 2007 safe sex PSA for MTV. Real high point. Real high point in a career. Thank you for joining m

e today. So happy to have you here. We're so happy to be in your gorgeous, gorgeous home. There's much to get into, but I do want to hear about this PSA for MTV that you shot many years ago. I'm sorry to say the audition process was multiple people making out with each other in a room with the "casting director" and the client. Yeah, yeah. It was, uh, needless to say, nonunion. But it was a job. Oh, yeah. And in those early days, I needed a job. You just recently finished doing many years of one

show, one very special show, "Legends of Tomorrow." I wonder, for anyone who maybe hasn't seen it, if you could just tell us the sort of basic premise of who you played and what the show was? Yeah, we were these, like, D-list superheroes that were like, you know, trying to do good in the world. And my character was originally from the future and joined this group and was, you know, very sardonic and unhappy about it and then integrated into the team and then -- follow me here -- we changed to t

he future, which was where I was from. So my, like, whole being changed and I came back as a different version of myself, as though I had lived a different future. Like you do. That's so confusing. No. There's no good way to explain it. Well, that's why I was like, I'm gonna put this on you and see what happens. And it was time-traveling. I forgot the most important part. We time-traveled. We time-traveled. So we got to go into different costumes. It was really a pretty wonderful, wonderful time

. Marc Guggenheim, who was one of the creators of the show, part of the reason he created the character that you played, Zari, is that he had a Muslim-American family member. Yeah, I believe it was a sister-in-law. Who had mentioned, like, "There's just no representation in my life." Yeah, and this was, um -- this was 2017. So this was during the Trump presidency and during the Muslim ban. So it was, um, a really, uh, timely moment to introduce a character like this. So it was really special in

terms of that. I'd never experienced anything like that. There's a word I've heard you use, uh, many times when talking about representation. And I think, uh, Zari, your character, really gets at it, which is "nuance." I wonder if you could talk a bit about how important nuance is in representation. Speaking to my community, which is the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian sometimes -- we call it MENA or MENASA community -- We're sort of, um -- I wouldn't say we're at our infancy, but we'

re at an earlier stage in terms of, like, American representation. I would say, you know, 40, 50 years ago, you just didn't even see anything from the Middle Eastern community. After 9/11, as we all know, there were a lot of depictions of, um, you know, terrorists and terrorist-adjacent people on television. I remember, um, I was graduating college and a teacher said to me -- and I want to say I think it was, like, very well-meaning, but there was this class right before we graduated where she w

as sort of like, "I think you might, in the real world, you would be cast as like this, this, and this." And when it got to me -- and I should say I was the -- I believe I was the only person of color in my class, which is, you know, not that long ago. Not that long ago, yeah. She said, "I think it's going to be really great out there for you because of 9/11." [ Gasps ] Yeah. Which I've actually thought about a lot, you know, in the subsequent years because -- again, I think she was coming -- It

was totally coming from a... You're being very kind. ...good but, like, uninformed place, you know? But the reality when I went into the world was like, sure, there was some representation of Middle Eastern characters, but really problematic. And even like early in my career, I did a soap opera where I played an Iraqi refugee. And I still -- I mean, I try to be kind to myself about it because I was very young and, you know, took a job thinking, with my best intentions, that I would be able to i

nfluence what the journey of that character was. Very quickly found that they were not interested in, you know, my thoughts or feelings about it. And there were so many stereotypes, so many problematic things, um, that what was excellent about it was that I sort of vowed from then on. I was like, "Never again. Yeah. Like, it's not worth it. Even though I got the experience, it just was so soul crushing, uh, that, um, in some ways it shaped, like, all my decision making going forward, which I thi

nk, when you're, uh, a minority artist, sometimes your greatest power is in saying no. And I've said no a lot, and I've had to say no. Yeah. Because there have been so many problematic things. It's changing. Yeah. We have a long way to go. But, you know, we're seeing less terrorist things. And now I think, to answer -- long-winded way to get to your, uh, question about nuance -- I feel like sort of in that spectrum, in that journey of representation, like, first it's something really, really pro

blematic and then it's like, "Well, let's just make them all, like, good." Yeah. "They're all just -- let's just like..." You know? Hardworking. Hardworking, like, sort of meek. I feel like we're still actually in that moment where it's improved, but I'm still seeing a lot of sort of, um, victim porn, you know, about these parts of the world where we're like, "We feel really bad for them and they have, like, really bad things happening to them." And what does that lack? Nuance. These are human b

eings. They are living their lives. They are much more like you and I and, you know, us. And in nuance you get universality, you get humanity. I don't know why we're doing art if we're not trying to get to that. Come here, little man. Don't take it and go away. [ Laughs ] I like the back and forth. She's like, "I don't understand," like... You got salmon on your face, dude. Best segment we've ever shot. I want to talk a bit about how representation functions in "Legends of Tomorrow" in a really

sort of fun way, in that you cross genres, you go through time, you are seen in many different time periods. I wonder if you thought at all about the way representation functions, just by getting to be a nuanced human who appears in many different places, many different costumes, many different sets. Yeah, I have, um, a friend who is a dramaturg who always talks about the actor body and, like, what that story tells. And I think she's sometimes talking about it in terms of, like, double casting.

Like, you know, in "King Lear," if you have, like, Cordelia and the fool in the same actor body, you're telling a story. Right. And I think in the same way, in "Legends," like, to see my body in, let's say, Elizabethan clothes isn't -- is interesting. It's like these are the things that, you know, if you're in, just to generalize, in the middle of the country, like, maybe you've never seen a Middle Eastern person, but you certainly haven't seen one wearing something that is familiar to you. That

's right. And there's something a little revolutionary in that. I think so too. Yeah. And then sometimes you can actually make interesting commentary because we're going through time and you have, you know, the hindsight of history. Like, for instance, at some point my character went back to the Salem witch trials. That's right. And so there were parallels between that persecution, so you see -- again, I think what was really special about "Legends" is that it gave you a different perspective th

rough casting, through the characters, and through the lens of history. Now we're going to look at some breakdowns. As a reminder, breakdowns are little bits of text used to help agents and actors figure out if they are right for a character. Tala, where you are Iranian American, I thought we would look at breakdowns that come up when you search specifically the word "Iranian." Now, to preface this, I have to say, the results that came up from a search just of the last five years are not necessa

rily offensive per se. Okay. But I think you will agree they are problematically one-noted. Let's say non-nuanced. That's the theme. That's the theme. Perhaps not surprisingly, a huge percentage of breakdowns are concerned with your accent and language abilities, with a varying degree of excellence. Here we go. [ Clears throat ] All right. Seeking an actor fluent in Farsi. Seeking a native Farsi speaker. Speaks perfect Farsi. "Perfect." Let me tell you what's wrong with this. [ Laughter ] Straig

ht out of the gate. Let me just start here. It's the Persian language. Mm-hmm. Okay? So it would be like -- this would be akin to saying, like, "Seeking an actor fluent in Espanol." [ Laughs ] That's what you're saying. Right. Like, Farsi is what you say when you're speaking Persian. Right. But this is wrong. Like, if we're gonna be technical... That's right. ...this is wrong, and to me says you probably don't know what you're asking for. Good. We're off to a great start. Yeah. Though some proje

cts don't feel quite so beholden to authenticity. Looking for actors who can portray Iranian-born and Iranian-American characters. Actors can come from anywhere in the world. [ Laughter ] J.K.! Anywhere! There is one word that comes up more often than any other. Oh, yeah, do you want to guess? It's not bad necessarily. It's just one-note. "Exotic." That I would say is bad. [ Laughter ] Oh. She's a traditional Iranian mother. Wears traditional clothes, a traditional elderly woman. A deeply tradit

ional Persian father. The ideal child in her traditional Iranian father's eyes. [ Sighs ] The number of times that word... [ Laughs ] I mean... Are you feeling feelings? That, to me, is a dog whistle. Yeah. Like, that, to me, is saying, like, really religious, really Muslim. If I had to put a religion on it. Right. Conservative, like, closed-minded. Like, this, to me, is about, like, reinforcing tropes of, like, immigrant -- immigrant people. Uh, immigrant parents. I'm seeing a lot of parents he

re. Trying to show the, like, culture gap between... Yeah. Problematic. Yeah, I mean, I think the word "traditional" is the negative-space dog whistle of "nonassimilated." Right? Yes. Yes. And doesn't get these zany American ways. [ Laughs ] That's right. No, thank you. "Traditional." Anyone looking for work as an Iranian man should prepare themselves for a certain emotional skill set. A cold-hearted Iranian businessman. A cruel and philandering husband. Cruel, stoic, and stern with an expressio

n that demands authority. Firm and authoritative, his demeanor is stoic and, at times, dictatorial. Yeah, toss that "dictatorial" in there. You want to talk about a dog whistle? They're like, "So you're Saddam Hussein." [ Laughter ] "Picture it." Like, "Picture a father." [ Laughs ] That's right. "Um, just sprinkle some stoic in there." But ultimately there is a great dearth of Iranian roles. Even expanding to the words "Middle Eastern," in the last five years in the New York market, the search

returns approximately 470 results, compared with 1,075 for the word "Caucasian." When you enter "Iranian" specifically, you come back with about 30... Oh, boy. ...three of which were from the play you were just in in 2022. 10%. So to make up for your lack of nuanced and varied representation as Iranian, I thought we'd close out with just a few of the things any woman, Iranian or otherwise, gets to enjoy reading in the business. Oh, boy. Deep breath. [ Clears throat ] Bonnie. Early 30s. Really, r

eally beautiful. Bonnie spit two kids out and didn't break a sweat. I'm so offended for Bonnie. But I think Bonnie would disagree. She's spitting kids out. I don't know what you have to worry about. That's just a male fantasy. All right, number two. "[LADY]" -- She doesn't got a name. But she's a main character. Lady. Main character. Female mid 20s to early 30s. "Very funny, but not funny looking," Lynne. Mnh-mnh. No, we don't... We're not in the business of funny-looking. And, oh, boy, finally,

Jeff's girlfriend. What's her name? We'll never know. She gets an apostrophe. She doesn't need a name. She's -- She's, "Female, any ethnicity." Any. And she's in her 20s. This has no lines. Of course -- Of course Jeff's girlfriend doesn't have lines. Jeff's girlfriend doesn't have a name. Yeah. Poor gal. What we really like to do with this show is ruin people's days. [ Laughter ] Are you a star? Do you want to be on television? [ Laughing ] Yeah! ♪♪ Are you an athlete? [ Laughs ] Is that the bo

om? Oh, no, no, no. [ Laughs ] You did a play recently at the Atlantic Theater Company called "English." I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that play. "English" is about, uh, a TOEFL class. TOEFL is the test you have to take in order to -- It's an English test. So if you are outside of America and you want to come to any university in an English-speaking -- I should say English-speaking country, you have to pass the TOEFL in order to prove you can speak English. So that was the pre

mise for the play. They're just students in this class. There's a teacher, um, and these four students. And the way the play functions, which I think is -- I've never seen prior to this -- when we're speaking English, we have -- we're speaking accented English, so as though an Iranian is speaking English. [ Persian accent ] So they are trying to speak, uh, English. Right? [ Normal voice ] So it's hard, right? But then when I'm speaking Persian in the play, I'm speaking like this. So what it what

it did really, uh, ingeniously, I thought, is that it took away that distance, I think, that can sometimes happen with subtitles or with accents, actually, on stage, where, you know, the audience kind of feels like, "Oh," again, like, "look at those people, those poor people." Like, you don't feel a part of it. But when I'm talking like this, again, it kind of like glitches your brain where you're like, "Oh, wait, they're -- oh, she's actually speaking her mother tongue. I'm hearing it as Engli

sh, but it's actually Persian." Right. And what was so cool about it is that I -- in sort of the "Sliding Doors" version of my life -- I thought so much about, "Oh, wow. If I hadn't left Iran as a nine-month-old and I'd stayed in Iran, like, this could be me." Right. "This could actually be me." So I was, like, sort of inhabiting... It was a trippy, like, very emotional, profound experience to step into that version of myself, kind of not unlike Zari. I was just gonna say, there's a real time-tr

avel aspect to that as well. If you're given circumstances that are different, like, who are you? And of course I thought about my parents and, like, asked them a lot of questions about, like, their journey of learning English and how difficult of a language actually English is. Yeah. And that feeling of, like, not being able to express yourself fully. Like, I actually feel this when I try to speak Persian now. Like, I don't -- I don't have the vocabulary, I don't have the -- I understand, I can

get by, but I don't have, like, a true fluency of, like, articulating my deepest thoughts and my, like, soul, and language and soul I think are so interconnected. And my character in English was saying, like, "I don't like English. I can't -- I'm not me in English." And I think the play just had such an interesting meditation on our relationship, our body's relationship to language. I thought it was just a brilliant play. I... It was so meaningful to be part of it. We're gonna take a little bre

ak now. We're going to explore your special skills. Oh, brace yourself. Yeah. [ Laughs ] ♪♪ So at the bottom of every actor's résumé, there is a section called "special skills." And that is all of an actor's sort of talents and different abilities. So today for our special skills, what are you going to show me, Tala? Well, I just want to say sometimes in the "special skills" section, one does tend to exaggerate. [ Laughs ] Are you are you saying that what's about to happen is not going to be...

I just want to -- it feels important to preface by saying that I'm not an expert in plants, which is what we're gonna do. We're gonna, um, take some propagated plants. Just keep talking. I just want to slip my hand into this. We're going to plant those propagated, uh, cuttings, which I got from my father, who's quite a green thumb. We are going to get our propagated plants right over here. Follow me, Lynne. You can see like, um, this one has -- has some nice roots. Very nice roots. This probably

should have gone in soil weeks ago, but it's going today. So if you can just put that on a little towel there. And I'm gonna add these. I'm gonna plant these little guys with some nice roots. This is very Nature Channel. They're a little creepy, right? It's not just me. Well, you know... [ Laughs ] You get this little... Beautiful. Thank you. If you want to just put a little bit of soil. Okay. I'm just gonna help you first. It's my little guy. A bit more. Oka-- okay. [ Laughs ] Give me a minute

. Give me a second. Micromanaging my soil implantation. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Let you -- okay, stop! [ Laughs ] All right, now, if you want, either with your finger or with the spoon, we need a little... I got to go... A little indentation. Should I look at you deep in the eyes while I do this? Too far, Lynne. Too far. And then... Just sort of -- sort of smush it in there. Smush it in. Technical term. This is very technical. Oh, I planted a thing. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So now we want to just

give it a little bit of support. And so we'll add now... You're pretty and your emotions matter. Do you want help? And, uh... That's good. That helps. I want to check in on you occasionally. That's the kind of support I need, so this is, uh... Hey, dude. Hi, guy. Going with the big guns here. Oh, yeah. You're a professional. You get to use the trowel. I think you need a little bit more. You do? You know what? [ Laughs ] You're right. Which one are you leaning towards? I think I'm gonna do this v

ery intense one. You want the one that you said should have been planted already. Yeah, this one's -- look, it's like that shouldn't be there. This means it's just growing in the water. And that's a bad thing? Oh, you're doing great. Like, just a gentle patting. I felt like you just instinctually did the patting in. I do have plants in my house. They are made of Legos. Mm. [ Laughs ] They are. They're succulents made of Legos. Well, here's the thing about having plants, too. It's a real reminder

that sometimes things fail and you just have to pick yourself up and move on. I'm gonna be honest... It's lovely. It looks great. So now we're gonna give them a little bit of H2O. Yes! Just a little pour. This is a lot. I know, I know. But you got to spray your plants. So am I going in on a spray or a pour right now? You're going in on a gentle pour. Gentle pour. This is where... Oh, God. This is where it could all go wrong. That's great. Is it? It's kind of like my French press. Only no coffee

will come out. Exactly. It's less delicious. [ Laughs ] And then we're gonna do a little bit of plant food because thoughts and prayers are not enough. There is something about, like, the watering a thing, the caring for a thing outside of yourself that does feel... It's simple, but I find it to be a calming activity. Yeah. So you can't rush nature. Right. It's going to do what it's going to do. So I find that quite a good metaphor. Yeah, I like that. For when things seem hard, inevitably. Like

the many years of living on this planet. Yeah. And we'll just... Look at our cute plants. You know, introduce them to their little friends here. We're decorating now. Wow, Lynne. Nailed it. Did I? Okay. Yeah. Lovely. I was worried maybe it wasn't right. Oh, look at that. That's it. That's "Special Skills." ♪♪ In "Legends," the Legends have sort of screwed up time, right? And they're going back and they're fixing their mistakes. And then Zari, your character, comes in and says, "What if we could

actually make the future better?" And I was thinking about that in terms of the advocacy and activism I've been watching you do on social media in terms of using your celebrity, using your reach to bring awareness to what is happening in Iran right now. And I wonder if you've thought at all about connections between playing this activist and now sort of stepping into this activist role. That's was a really good question. That's actually really perceptive. I hadn't, I mean, in a conscious way. U

m, but, you know, I think we sort of, every time we play a character, we, like, take a little bit of that with us, whether we want to or not. Absolutely. For better or worse. But for better in this case. Um, I care chronically. Yeah. What a lovely way of putting that. Yeah, I sometimes wish I didn't care so much. Understood. But I do care very, very much about everything and anything that I'm sort of involved in and that I think I might be able to have, like, a little bit of impact towards, like

, improving. You know, I was born in Iran, but my parents really are Iranian. You know, like, they lived 20 some years, almost 30 years of their lives in Iran. The reality is that, as their child, I hold that for them in a different way, obviously, than they are. But I think I perceived it as a burden for a long time, and now I see it as a responsibility and something that I need to step up to and meet. And I think, in my, like, fantasy mind, I of course want to sort of write the future, you kno

w, and what's been happening in Iran for the last 43 years, but even prior to that, you know, has been a really, um, complex and difficult history where people have suffered at the hands of governments, first under the Shah and now under the Islamic Republic of Iran. And my ancestors, like, have -- have experienced that, and I experience it -- you know, it's in my body somehow, it's in my blood. So the least I can do is advocate for them and try to spread their message and to keep their stories

in the public eye as best I can. But, yeah, it's a really emotional and tricky, tricky thing that I'm always trying to think about how I can be more helpful with, you know? Yeah. ♪♪ Thank you so much for joining me today. Gosh, what a delight. This has been so fun in this absolutely beautiful snowy wonderland we find ourselves in. I called this in for you. Really appreciate it. Thank you for watching. Take care of each other, and be professional. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪