"Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery" w/Mark Charles

will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hey, welcome back faithful politics listeners and viewers. If you're watching us in our YouTube channel, I am your political host and I'm joined once again by your faithful host, Josh Bertram. josh: What's up? Well, good to be here. will_wright__faithful_politics_: And this week we are joined by Mark Charles, who was a dual citizen of the United States and Navajo Nation. He's an activist, public speaker, consultant, author, and reform pastor. Charles is the co-au

thor of Unsettling Truths, the ongoing dehumanizing legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery, and regularly contributes as a correspondent for Native News Online and journalist for the wireless Hogan, Reflections from the Hogan. 2020 presidential election and we are happy to have him on. So yeah, it's a. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Well, Yat'e, thank you so much for having me. If I could, can I introduce myself more traditionally will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_

: before we begin? So Yat'e, Martial Zinishie, Sin B'kheid'n'an Nishle, D'Otohe Glinie Basis'jin, Sin B'kheid'n'an D'Osh'che, D'Ot'Ol'Chini D'Osh'n'ele. In our Navajo josh: Mm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: culture, when we introduce ourselves, we always give our foreclans. We're matrilineals of people with our identities come from our mother's mother. My mother's mother is American of Dutch heritage, Nah. Loosely translated that means I'm from the wooden shoe people. will_wright__faithful_poli

tics_: Ha ha. josh: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: My second clan, my father's mother, is Toa Higlini, which is the waters that flow together. My third clan, my mother's father, is also Sinbikedina'a, and my fourth clan, my father's father, is Toa Chitni, and that's the Bitterwater clan. It's one of the original clans of our Navajo people. I also want to acknowledge I'm speaking to you from what's now called Washington, D.C., but these are the traditional lands of the

Piscataway, and I want to honor the Piscataway as the host of the land where I'm living. these lands and I want to just state how humble I am to be living on the lands of the Piscataway today. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, thank you. That's really josh: Yes, will_wright__faithful_politics_: awesome. josh: thank you. will_wright__faithful_politics_: And I want to kind of get your critique. Was my pronunciation okay? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So it's yacht eh? Yeah, it was a little b

it off, but not bad for a first start, so. will_wright__faithful_politics_: I literally right before this recording, josh: Ja, tschüss! will_wright__faithful_politics_: I was like, I typed it in. I was listening to the recording. I was pronouncing it. I was like, oh, I'm going to nail it. I'm going mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Thank will_wright__faithful_politics_: to mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: you. will_wright__faithful_politics_: get this. josh: Hehehehehe will_wright__faithful_politics_

: stuff that you do. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So it was never my goal to be an activist or even to be engaged politically. When my wife and I were dating, right, and talking about what our goals, our vision, for our lives were and what we wanted to do, and I was telling her, my goal is I want to encourage the church. I want to encourage the church to become who the church is supposed to be. not deny I'm still doing that. I'm just doing it in a way I never thought I would be doing it. I did

not think encouraging the church to be who it needs to be would involve me being engaged politically. Dealing with some of the things the church has been complicit in and trying to walk back some of the things that the church has been not only engaged in but also helped establish things like the doctrine of discovery, systemic racism, sexism, white So, yeah, it wasn't, it was never a point of mind where I decided, hey, this is where I'm going to go. But well, maybe that's not true. There was pr

obably one point where I was, I felt like I was being led to engage a bit more politically. And I actually took a year to really think through that. Because again, I had no intention of going that route to start with. I will follow this path. I have no idea where it's going to lead or what that's going to mean and I have no intention of becoming a normal run-of-the-mill politician. I feel like I have some very strong prophetic things I need to say and so if I'm going to do this I have to find ou

t how I'm going to do it without will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: But then I felt very like my wife and I both agreed one of the next steps for us was to move back to the Navajo nation, which is not where you go if you want to be more engaged politically. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Right. You don't leave the limelight. You step into it. But we move to the reservation and live for there for 11 years. And it was well li

ving there. the dehumanizing policies both the church and the nation have enacted against my people and experiencing that modern day marginalization as well as the wrestling with all the historical trauma that came with that. And that's what really gave me the vision of what I have today to address things at a foundational level. You know, when I was running for president in 2020 as part of the as an independent campaign The theme of my campaign was I said let's build a nation where for the very

first time we the people actually means all the people. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: You know and I said if we want if we want and most people will say we would love to have a nation that stands for equality. And most people would say our foundations are our constitution sets out this great vision of equality. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: If you think our Constitution was meant to include everybody, get into a di

verse group of people, people of color, women, people of different gender identities, and read the document out loud, and you will be shocked and astounded, right? You'll be embarrassed at how quickly our own Constitution turns racist, sexist, and white supremacists. trust them at a foundational level. will_wright__faithful_politics_: No. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And that's where I've spent the bulk of my time. The book I wrote with my co-author, Shingchuan Ra, On Settling Truths, The Ongo

ing to Humanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery, one of the things we do very early in that book, chapters three and four, is we trace how the church got from the teachings of Jesus who said radical things like, and help those who persecute you, right? It's radical things. will_wright__faithful_politics_: you mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: How it got from that to a doctrine that literally said you can kill people who don't look like, sound like, act like, or worship will_wright__faithful_p

olitics_: uh mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: like you. And the thread we found was josh: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: unbelievable. Chapters three and four, especially for Christians, is a paradigm changer because it shows how going will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: all will_wright__faithful_politics_: you. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: the way back to the writings of Eusebius who was pre-Constantine, josh: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: right? how

going back to his writings, we see the introduction of this notion of a heretical kingdom known as Christendom, or Christian Empire, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: as he was working to kind of stop the persecution of the Christians. And so you trace that thread all the way through, and once you understand that thread, then it makes perfect sense why the Church is wrestling with the things it's wrestling with today. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark

_charles___wirelesshogan_: Because we've josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: been in bed with Empire, for 1600 years, josh: since Constantine. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: going all the way back to Eusebius and Constantine. And josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: so chapters 3 and 4 of Unselling Truths is a paradigm shifter for Christians because it shows how the roots of that, and one of the things we do in my book, right, I say this a

ll the time, is I always warn my audiences, you know, as we speak, I'm going to offend you and it doesn't matter if you're on the left or the right, if you're liberal or conservative, I'm going to offend you and if you're afraid I'm picking on you too much and the person sitting next to you is getting off easy Sit tight because in will_wright__faithful_politics_: Bye. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: five minutes They will feel like I'm picking on them and you will be smiling and more smugly And s

o I know I worked very hard to give a bipartisan critique and to show how The things that we that we attack each other as the left and the right are Actually at its at its base common values both sides hold and they're because they're written into both the theologies of the church and even the foundations of the country. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, josh: Man, will_wright__faithful_politics_: that. josh: it's absolutely amazing. I, it's so fascinating. Number one, I think you're the fi

rst Navajo that I've met personally. So thanks for that opportunity. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: You're very welcome. josh: I'm serious. I mean, I'm not trying to say that. It's a little tongue in cheek, but it's not really because it's pretty amazing. And I'm fascinated by the language. I love languages and like I've taken Greek and Hebrew Spanish and Latin and things like that. And I just love languages. So it's really cool to hear. I just love the way it sounds. It's such mark_charles___wi

relesshogan_: Yeah. josh: an interesting language. We're gonna get into the doctrine of discovery and everything there. And there's so many questions that I have, especially with you as a pastor and a reform pastor at that. So it's interesting. So there's gonna be a lot of questions. interested. I want to get into the book, of course, but what tell me about your journey? How did you move from being like, how did you come into really getting your identity as a Navajo and solidifying that was that

from a young age? You just kind of tell me about your story and how did you become a reform pastor? I'm really mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, josh: interested. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: well, so I mean one of the quite a similar question I get frequently that people ask me is why are you a Christian? Right because the church has done horrible genocidal oppressive things to your people. Why would you take on the faith of your colonizers? And for years, I would tell the story of how my

grandparents on my Navajo side, my father's boarding school survivors. The boarding schools were these institutions run by both the church and the government and they were established to forcibly assimilate Native children to Western culture. They were taken from their homes, they were punished for speaking their languages, the stories of abuse come out of out of the boarding schools, the mental, physical, emotional, sexual abuse that came out is gut-wrenching. And my grandparents survived And

it was through that that they got introduced to Christianity and they embraced the Christian faith and They my grant they went on to work with the missionaries of the CRC in the Southwest My grandmother helped plant one of the early churches on our reservation josh: What is the CRC? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: The Christian reform church josh: Christian Reform Church, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Christian josh: okay. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: form church of North America. Yeah, so the

y they've been running a mission compound on our reservation for over a hundred years. josh: Oh my goodness, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And josh: wow. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: so my grandmother helped plant one of the earlier churches in the mid-20th century. My grandfather worked with the translators. He helped translate the Bible into Navajo. So there's a legacy on my Navajo side of my family being members of the church and josh: Wow. Wow. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: following Chr

ist and being Christians. And I've told that story and I've talked a lot about even the frustration father had of working with the white missionaries, how they never treated him as an equal, and they always were, he was kind of off, pushed off to the side, and the challenges he felt and struggled with really until he died with that marginalization from the very denomination he was serving. But two weeks ago, actually about a month ago, I was back in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is actually one

of the most broad things the Christian informed church does is their worship symposium. They have once a year run by the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, John Whitvillie is the organizer of that. He's been a great friend for over a decade. And I've been a part of that worship symposium for a long time. And this year I wasn't speaking at it, but a friend of mine from Australia who's Aboriginal, who I've known for over almost for 20 years, What does it mean to be authentically aboriginal and

authentically a Christian? And we've been on a journey together along with many other people and he was asked that question of why are you a Christian? The church has been so horrible to you. And his response blew my mind because it was radically honest in a way I've never heard before. because that's who colonized us. How did we been colonized by Islam? I'd be a Muslim. How do we been colonized by Buddhists? I'd be a Buddhist. How do we been colonized by Hindus? I'd be a Hindu. will_wright__fa

ithful_politics_: Um mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: He said, that's who colonized us and that's who therefore I converted to their religion. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Oh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: He said, but today I am interrogating my faith to find out if this faith allows me authentically aboriginal and authentically a follower of Christ. And I asked him, I said, why did you use the word interrogate instead of investigate or explore? He said, because those words are too passive.

He said, I am holding this thing to trial. I am interrogating what this faith believes or states to believe. And because right, what it states to believe will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And so I'm trying to interrogate what does it mean? And the thing that fascinated me about that statement is I realize that's exactly what I'm doing. My grandparents, why am I a Christian? I was raised in a Christian home on both sides of my family. Both longtime members of the

Christian form church. I don't even remember when I first said the prayer. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: where I began to own it more and I began to know when I began to ask questions of what does it mean to be Navajo and be a Christian but as far as being a Christian that's been my entire life experience and so I realized that yeah That's because my grandparents were boarding school survivors and the way you survive the boarding school is You converted R

ight when will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: you have a gun to your head. That's the way you survive will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: you convert and the problem is my grandparents always worked under the authority of the white missionaries and They were never given the room they never took the space to interrogate this faith that they embraced and Say does this faith really include because the missionaries didn't include the

m They accepted a subservient role under the missionaries in this faith and they never interrogated it and I've sat with boarding school survivors and I've heard gut-wrenching stories about what happened to them in the boarding schools. I had a very close relationship with my grandparents. I lived with them for several years. They lived right next door. As they got older, I stayed in a bedroom in their house. I cared for them. I cooked for them. I ate with them. I cleaned their house. I took the

m shopping. I will_wright__faithful_politics_: වවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවවව mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: mean, I saw them almost as much as I saw my own family. And they never talked to me about the boarding schools. They never shared with me the stories of what they endured. And I know that their stories were just as painful as the stories I've actually heard from other people. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh. mark_cha

rles___wirelesshogan_: And that they've never been able to deal with it. And so I'm now doing what my grandparents never did, which is I'm interrogating this faith. read on Settling Truths, a lot of the chapters of that book are my story of faith and my wrestling with what does it mean to be a Christian. And I'm actually writing another book right now called Decolonizing Faith. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And in this book, I'm actually looking directly at

the way both the church and the scriptures have been weaponized to hold my people and other people of color in states of oppression And so, yeah, I would say I'm in the state of, I still call myself a Christian, and I still believe that the blood of Christ reconciles will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: me will_wright__faithful_politics_: you. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: back to Creator. But I'm interrogating this institution we call the church. And I'm inter

rogating not only what it's taught, but the scriptures it's presented, say about my humanity as a Gentile, right? will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I'm a Gentile. The challenge is I'm a Gentile to the Jews and I'm a savage to Western Christianity. And so where do these scriptures begin to include me? Or do they include me? And what does that mean for my faith and how I practice So I would say I'm actually in that, you know, and I've been on a tremendous journey

, even the past 20 years, how I met this gentleman who was at Kelvin with me a few weeks ago, you know, meeting him as an Aboriginal from Australia, I've met with Indigenous Christians from all over the world who are in the process of decolonizing their faith. And josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: then engaging that within the institutions of Western Christianity, I've served on the board of the Christian Forum Church I've served on the board of CCDA. I've partnered with groups like Soj

ourners and other organizations, you know, and I've been very engaged with the institutional church throughout the country. And now I'm interrogating that to say, okay, where is my space here? josh: Sure. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Not just relationally, but even theologically and spiritually within this content. josh: Yeah, I mean that makes so much sense and you know even from some of the things that you mentioned like even the structure of the Navajo nation in terms of clans and things li

ke that my sense is that you would be able to come to a document like the New Testament or any of the documents in the Old Testament we refer to you know the Hebrew scriptures and Christian scriptures that you would come to them and have much better ability to understand them and to interpret them correctly Just kind of a run-of-a-mill Or not even run-of-the-mill, but just like someone who has grown up Western is white mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: and has Western Individualism and

idealism and all the things that come with Western secular society that has been obviously very influenced by Christianity profoundly and unbelievably but at the same time but institutionalized Christianity as mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: you as you said and I do make a distinction between the and the human element of Christianity and what they have done and obviously the the Creator and the God that we serve and there's so many questions I have but I know Will's got a question so

I just want to mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Thank you josh: but mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: for josh: what mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: the... josh: I just wanted to mention that what do you think about that observation like you're that you're the cultural mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Okay. josh: milieu that you came from and understand makes you able to mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. And josh: people. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: so the way I would phrase it, because I would ar

gue, and I don't disagree with you, but my experience is I was raised as a white evangelical, right? I was raised in josh: Right, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: the Christian form josh: right, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: church. josh: right. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So the faith my grandparents embraced said, you have to worship in English, right? You have to do things the Western way. And so they didn't teach the language to my father, so he didn't know I mean, they were converted into

boarding school, right? Which is forced assimilation. And so I was raised the white evangelical, probably just as much as you were or any other average American. But when I began to question or look deeper, I had more access to my community to begin to relate and kind of seek that out in context. quick example is I've done discipleship right with believers from around the globe and been in relationship with believers from around the globe and I was doing discipleship with a messianic Jewish bel

iever not your white evangelical messianic Jewish believer but a person who grew up in art who lived within the traditional Jewish community in Israel josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: picture of that, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: but will_wright__faithful_politics_: ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: very much josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: believed in Jesus. And when I went to spend some time with him in Israel, I spent some time with h

im in Israel, he spent some time with me on the Navajo Nation. We kind of discipled each other. And when I got there, the first thing he said to me is he said, Mark, you've been trained as a white American, right, which is how I grew up, to read the scriptures incorrectly. josh: Exactly. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: You've been trained to read the Old Testament josh: Yes. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: and it wasn't. josh: Which is not. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: It was written to Jewish p

eople and it's about their covenantal relationship to the God of Abraham. josh: Yes, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: It's josh: yes. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: not something that you can claim and apply. You can glean a ton from it, but you can't. It's not written to you. You have to read it as an outsider. josh: Absolutely. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Now, because again, I'm a gentile to the Jews and I'm a savage to Western Christianity as a Navajo man, book about the doctrine of discover

y written by a native author, his name is Stephen Newcomb, and his book is called Pagans in the Promised Land. And it's a it's a great title because it literally, the title itself, explains what happened to Native Americans, right? When you read the Book of Deuteronomy, how were the people told to claim their Promised Land? Well, they were to commit genocide. Leave God said. Right? And so it's easy for me to identify with the Gentiles in the Old Testament, right? Where God is not necessarily a G

od of love, right? Even both of you, I assume neither of you are Jewish, had we been alive in the Old Testament, we would have been part of that will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. No. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: promised land, we will_wright__faithful_politics_: I don't know. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: probably would have been will_wright__faithful_politics_: I don't know. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: killed. will_wright__faithful_politics_: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And so it's easier to identify with that and say, okay, I need to read these scriptures as an outsider, understanding this is about God's covenant relationship w

ith the people of Israel. And just that comment that he made to me was very paradigm shifting for me. the Old Testament like it was written to me instead of reading it as an outsider and how that deeply impacted what promises I was able to claim and what theologies I was able to agree with because so much about Western Christianity is about saying we are the new Israel and we have a land covenant with the God of Abraham, we have promised lands and we can claim a and he write all of these things,

which again, this goes back to the writings of Eusebius and the work of Constantine, which creates this heretical understanding of a Christian empire and earthly empire, which is what I would say the US is today. So anyway, there's just one example of because I live in a nation that in its founding documents, right, the Declaration of Independence 30 lines below the state when I'm intercreated Savages. I have Supreme Court legal precedent based on the fact that land titles exist because natives

aren't human. We're savages and we don't have sovereignty over the land we held. This is very much a part of what it means to be Native American today. It allows me to understand and relate a whole lot easier to read the Old Testament as an of disillusioned by reading it as an insider, which is how most of Western Christianity reads that josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: series of texts. josh: Yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow. That's pretty fascinating. I could probably just

listen to you talk for the whole hour. josh: Yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: But I want to do a little bit of term setting if we can. I noticed that you used the term Native American. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: you can kind of help us better understand the proper, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: you know, broad term that we should be using when referring. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So yeah, a reason I use

a lot of these terms interchangeably is because again, I'm into offending everybody. And at some point I'm gonna offend, so there are some groups of people, native peoples who say native American is not accurate, we're not Americans, we're not native Americans, we're our own tribe, right? We're Navajo, we're Lakota, and that is absolutely accurate. And actually when I talk about specific tribes, I try to work very hard to name that tribe nation by itself. Lakota, the Ojibwe, the Cherokee, the N

avajo, the Zuni, the Hopi, so on and so forth. So I try to do that when I can. I'm not averse to using Native American because it's a very commonly used and generally accepted term, although there are some people who will say don't use it. I also talk about Indigenous peoples, again, because that's who we are. want to use that term. I often also use frequently the term American Indian and the reason I use that term, even though it's vastly inaccurate, but that's how most of the legal documents r

efer to us. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: In the founding documents and in the treaties, we are referred to as American Indians and so I use that term because that's how we're referred to in some of the founding will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I tend to, again, if I only used one, I would keep one group of people happy all the time and offend other people constantly, but I use them frequently. And so I often work hard to

read the room and know who my audience is, right? So I always do a land acknowledgement whenever I speak and I acknowledge by nation, the group of people who are on that will_wright__faithful_politics_: I'm mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: land. So the Piscataway, the Ojibwe, the Navajo, to the specific nation. If I'm dealing with a specific history or a massacre, I will talk about that nation or that tribe of people. But in general, when I'm talking about in general, I tend to most frequently in

my writing use the word indigenous peoples, will_wright__faithful_politics_: You mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: but I will also use American Indian and Native American if it fits the context. will_wright__faithful_politics_: it. So you've talked a lot about this doctrine of discovery, and I'm curious that maybe you can kind of elaborate on what is the doctrine of discovery and why should you know all Americans care about it. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, so in the short elevator speech o

f who the doctor is, it's a series of papal bulls, edicts of the Catholic church. It says things like invade, search out, capture, vanquish and so do all seresons and pagans whatsoever, reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, convert them to his and to their use and profit. It's a series of papal bulls written between 1452 and 1493. It's essentially the church in Europe wherever you go, whatever lands you find not ruled by white European Christian rulers, those people in those lands are less

than human and their land is yours to take. So that's the doctrine that let European nations go into Africa, colonize the continent and enslave the people because they didn't see them as human. It's the same doctrine that let Columbus, who was lost at sea, land in this new world and claim to have discovered it. in some of the first chapter of Unselling Truth says you cannot discover lands already inhabited. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank you for watching. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Y

ou can will_wright__faithful_politics_: I'll see you in the next video. Bye. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: conquer those lands, you can steal those lands, you can colonize those lands. You can't discover them unless your worldview tells you that the people already living there are not fully human. So this doctrine then gets embedded both into the theological imagination as well josh: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: as the actual written foundations of this country. behind the notion of man

ifest destiny, the doctrine of discovery is written into and influenced our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. We have Supreme Court cases referencing by name the doctrine of discovery as recently as 2005, that this is the legal precedent for land titles. When the Constitution states that the supreme law of the land are the dispute where a Native nation was claiming rights to land, or the US government was claiming rights to land, the authority for that would be the treaty, right?

There would no, there was a treaty written after this war or at this point of context which gave the rights for this and that and whatever to take place. But because every treaty the US entered into with Native Nations has been broken, when they over this country, over this nation, this continent, their only legal justification is the doctrine of discovery. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Interesting. Yeah, the Supreme Court case that you're referring to is that the case that involved Ruth Bad

er Ginsburg? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, so that was the most recent case. It was 2005, United Indian Nation of New York versus the city of Sherrill. And I have a TEDx talk online that people can watch if they want to. I, again, we could go into this and, but we'd be here for another half will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: hour will_wright__faithful_politics_: you. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: if we wanted to. But there's so many things we could do,

so many rabbit shows we could go down. But yeah, the last case, which I can identify, I can demonstrate to people, it's probably one of the most white supremacist Supreme Court of Penance written in my lifetime. referencing by name the doctrine of discovery and stating that natives do not have sovereignty over our lands and That case was that opinion was written and delivered by Ruth Bader Ginsburg and The point I make with josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: that is right because people a

re shocked. Well, she's a voice of dissent on Increasingly she was a voice of dissent on an increasingly conservative Supreme Court She was fighting for the marginalized and those who were oppressed and she was and she did require the definition that required natives to be categorized as not human, what this does is this makes white supremacy a bipartisan value, which she demonstrates very clearly. And so again, this is the problem. Like we as a nation, we can have a debate over what do we celeb

rate the first part of October, Columbus Day, our Indigenous Peoples Day, like, okay, what are we going to conversation about, okay, well, what about land titles? will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Cause if we're gonna josh: Thanks. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: include native peoples, we have to address the way we establish the legal precedent for land titles. And that's something disrupting to the entire U.S. economy. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank yo

u. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And that's a much more difficult conversation to have. And I know because I ran for president and no will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: one wanted to talk about it. josh: So, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: do you josh: well, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: want to cover it? The candidates do want to talk about it? No one's like, we don't know what to do with that. So we're just going to ignore you. josh: so we can talk about it

here. So, and this is your first campaign speech for your mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: 2024 election campaign. So help me understand, again, help me understand what would be, so with the land title issue, what would happen had the Supreme Court I don't know, whatever, I'm not aware of the decision. I'm not sure so you're gonna have to educate mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Bye. josh: me. But like if they were to just say, okay, we're reversing this, no more doctrine of discovery o

r this was no avoid, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: it was wrong, it doesn't match our values. What would be the actual practical implications for me and Will who own a house mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: in Virginia? What would happen? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So the practical implications would be you would no longer have land titles. Because when you break a treaty, when you have a treaty that says, okay, this side will do these things and this side will gain th

ese things and you have an agreement that says, okay, this is what we're going to do. And that treaty gets broken. josh: Right? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: What this means is you go back, you don't keep where you're at as the status quo, you Right? So, if, and so, example, even in the more recent cases, like in 2020, McGirt versus Oklahoma, where they were arguing, well, is Tulsa part of a reservation? And can the state of Oklahoma or the courts have the right to break a treaty? And the Supre

me Court ruled no, they don't have the right to break a treaty. was a reservation because that treaty hadn't been broken. But then they said in the ruling that the weight of breaking treaties lies on the legislature. And Congress has the right to break a treaty. And nobody, including the Supreme Court, will hold them accountable. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So when you break a treaty, right, so if the Choctaw, the Cherokee, have Oklahoma, established by a

treaty because they gave up lands in North Carolina or in somewhere else on the East Coast, right? And so that treaty josh: Right. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: gave North Carolina, the U.S., rights to those lands, and they gave a reservation to the Cherokee or the Choctaw in Oklahoma. And the U.S. breaks that treaty. So yes, the Cherokee lose their reservation in Oklahoma, but guess what America loses in North Carolina? their rights to those traditional lands. josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wirele

sshogan_: So people think treaties are a native issue. They're not. You are just as dependent upon treaties as we are. It's just that because of the dysfunctional theological imagination of the doctrine of discovery, Americans believe we can break treaties and it doesn't impact us. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow, that's crazy. josh: Dude, that is deep man, because I'm trying to think like, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Bye. josh: you know, Will and I, I'm assuming that the title on our ho

me makes no reference to the previous indigenous people that originally mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: No. josh: inhabited this land. And so my guess is that if someone were to comment, like I'm just trying to imagine, our land, our home, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So josh: or whatever. Oh, I don't even, I don't know what it would be. I don't know what it would mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: that's josh: be, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: what josh: but... mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: happ

ened in the Supreme Court case josh: Right. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: that we were discussing, where the United Indian Nation, so I'll just go through this case very quickly, josh: Yeah, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: the United josh: please, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Indian josh: please. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Nation, right, in, well, we'll go back to the initial ruling, right, this was in 1823. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Okay. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: There's a Su

preme Court case, Johnson versus McIntosh, this is two white men of European descent, native tribe, the other one acquired the same land from the government, and they want to know who owned the land, right? Who had the right to sell the land? The tribe or the government? That was their question. The case goes all the way to the Supreme Court, right? This is 1823. This is the John Marshall Court, right? The greatest, consider one of the greatest Supreme Court jurists in our nation's history, righ

t? They had to determine the legal precedent for land titles. Discovery is what gives title to the land. Now then, because discovery would imply that there might at least be some legal wiggle room for natives to declare, well, we were here first, so therefore we have the title, they went on in that opinion. John Marshall went on and he argued, he said, but the tribes of Indians inhabiting this country were fierce savages whose occupation was war and whose subsistence which John chiefly the fores

t. To leave them in possession of their country was to leave the country a wilderness. josh: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So they basically are saying that Native Americans are occupants of this land and Europeans who are fully human, right, we're savages, so we're just occupants like a bird occupies air or fish occupies water. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Europeans who legally are defined as fully human, They're the only ones who have the right of

discovery to the land, so therefore they have the fee title to it. So that case in 1823 creates the legal precedent for land titles. josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: That precedent is used and the Doctrine and Discovery is named by name in 1854, 1985, and again in 2005. And so it's interesting, whenever a question of native sovereignty comes up legally, they don't go back to the treaties, because all those treaties were broken. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirele

sshogan_: They go back to the Doctrine of Discovery and the Supreme Court has stated Now we can break treaties with Native Nations and give up nothing. That's our right, that's our jurisdiction because we already have discovery over this continent. We can give up our, we can break our treaties and not have to return the lands that we acquired through the treaty. will_wright__faithful_politics_: So crazy. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, Mark, like you're you're you're you're starting to make an activ

ist out of me. So well done. But I'm curious, you know, like, like we hear a lot in the news about Republicans, you know, cries about CRT being taught in schools and whatnot. critical theory that applies to indigenous people that you feel should be taught in schools because like I'll be honest I growing up going to public school I whether it was taught explicitly or implied like I walked away from a lot of my history classes thinking Cowboys good Indians bad you know mark_charles___wirelesshogan

_: Yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: and and and I'm system about Indigenous people that we really should be teaching. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, there absolutely is. And there's so many ways that we could go about this, right? I mean, first of all, most of our history has been purely erased. The best way I can describe this to you is, and we actually address this in chapters nine and 10 of our book, there's an understanding, a common understanding that the victors write the histo

ry. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: If you win a war, you get to write about the war. understanding and apply it and ask the question okay let's pretend Nazi Germany wins World War II. Let's just pretend that happened okay. Had there won World War II how would the Nazi historians had recorded the legacy of Adolf Hitler? Well he would be their greatest leader ever right? Had Nazi Germany won World Well, we have Holocaust deniers today. Imagine if they won the

war, right? What Holocaust? There was no Holocaust. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Mm-hmm mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Now the challenge, what makes chapters nine and 10 so over the top difficult to read, is we take that well accepted understanding and we apply it to our country. So the challenge we face as a nation is we've never lost a war that matters, right? disarmed, we've never been occupied, we've never given up large tracts of land. We've won every major conflict that we've been a pa

rt of. Technically, the Korean War is not over. We pulled out of Vietnam, we pulled out of Afghanistan, but we lost no land in that. We just pulled out of a foreign conflict, had a bit of a black eye, but an abruced ego, but not much else. past 250 years, meaning we've been able to write our own history for 250 years. And so what we've done with our history is exactly what we just imagined Nazi Germany would have done to theirs. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_

: And so chapters 9 and 10, the reason those chapters are so difficult is we apply that to be one of the greatest presidents in our nation's history, right? Who was considered by both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives. He is the model American. Yes, he had some racist views early on, but he built this friendship with Frederick Douglass and he went on to abolish slavery and he died. He was assassinated on Good Friday. He died for fighting for equality. And the challenges is be

cause we've never lost to all that matters. We've written our own history. Most of what we know about Lincoln is myth, not fact. And in chapters 9 and 10, going through his speeches, starting with the Lincoln-Douglas debates, but going through his entire career up until he was assassinated, energetic and blatant white supremacists. By his own words, we also demonstrate after 1862 when he was in office and he signed the Homestead Act and the Pacific Railway Act and he went through and literally e

thnically cleanse natives from the states of Minnesota, the central and the southern routes of the Trump and Ferrell way. He was also one of the most genocidal presidents in our nation's history. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And we actually don't even hide this, right? If you go to the Lincoln Memorial. At the base of the memorial, there's a small museum at the base of the memorial. And on each wall, there are plaques with different parts of Abraham Lincol

n's legacies, quotes in them, things that he said, things that he's advocated for. And on one wall, there's a plaque with, or there's five plaques with his quotes on the union. And at the middle of that wall is a plaque that says, I would preserve the union. is not to save our destroyed slavery, it's to save the Union. If I could save the Union without freeing a single slave, I would do it. If will_wright__faithful_politics_: Okay. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I could save it by freeing all th

e slaves, I would do it. And if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. There's a plaque hanging at the Lincoln Memorial that literally celebrates the fact that he did not believe black lives mattered. We're will_wright__faithful_politics_: That's mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: not will_wright__faithful_politics_: crazy. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: lamenting that, we're not trying to wrestle with that, we are celebrating that, and we're putting it up on

the memorial where we have these national debates about equality and race, and yet the guy who we're demonstrating our dialogue in front of, I mean, when he introduced himself, right, in the Lincoln Douglas debates, he said, I have no intention office or to intermarry with white people. He said, I have no intention of, you know, there's a physical difference between the white and black races, which I believe will forever forbid the two races living in terms of social and political quality. And

as long as they must remain together, there has to be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. He said that. This was 1858. in 1858? Well, what happened in 1857? Dred Scott. The entire debate of the midterm elections of 1858 was about Dred Scott. Do our foundations apply to black people? And Abraham Lincoln is stating very clearly he agreed with Dred Scott. will_wright__faithful_politics_: This is

crazy. I mean, I've been to the Lincoln Memorial a ton of times and maybe it's just because I went there with josh: Yeah, will_wright__faithful_politics_: my kids. josh: I have too. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Like I haven't read the plexer and then like that. But you know what? Like good on us for putting him on the penny. I mean, who uses pennies? josh: Who mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Well, josh: uses mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: we josh: pennies, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: can'

t take josh: dude? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: him off the penny because Illinois refuses to let us get rid of the penny. We can't let the pennies are useless coin and Illinois refuses josh: Oh mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: to let us get rid of the josh: dude, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: penny because Lincoln's on there. josh: you know it's funny like I often think I do the the thought experiment of imagining myself you know back in you know the pre you know antebellum South or something

like that or you know back in the Roman times you that made the right choice, you know. I'll be one of the guys that went against all the, all of the pressures of society, all the cultural trends and streams and all the majority culture and whatever and I would, I'd be the one that would stand up against. I said that to a historian on this show and kind of tongue-in-cheek but he said, yeah, no you wouldn't and neither would I. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha ha ha! mark_charles___wireless

hogan_: Yeah. josh: in there a lot of times in their views. And my question, you might anticipate is what, at what level do you think, like for someone like Abraham Lincoln, obviously we look at his views and think them objectively wrong, like those things that you just viewed. And I do think that they are wrong. My question is to what level do you think, I mean, we're products of our history. that how does that, how does the historical context of someone like Lincoln or anyone? I mean, honestly

, how does that play into how we make a historical judgment about him? And like, or anyone? I don't mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Was josh: know mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: he josh: if that mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: just josh: is mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: a josh: that mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: product josh: making? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: of his time? Right? Was he just a product of josh: Yeah, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: his time? josh: and not exactly. I don't want

to excuse things, right? Because that's what you don't want to do. They're just mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: projects of time so in a big deal we shouldn't be upset at him for it and that's not what I'm saying because I don't think that's right but I just always wonder about that like yeah what did he do does it negate what he did what his mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah. josh: views are what's I mean we're all just obviously we probably made him into like we put him up on a p

edestal that he probably never should have been on because he's a person mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So, josh: and anyway mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: again, josh: go ahead mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: we don't have time to go into all of the ins and outs here, josh: Totally, totally. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: but as part of my lectures now, I include in almost every lecture I give on the Doctrine of Discovery, 35 to 40 minutes, specifically on Lincoln. josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wire

lesshogan_: I first go through and prove beyond almost a shadow of a doubt that he was a blatant unapologetic and josh: Mm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: self-proclaimed. And I demonstrate that through his words, through his speeches, through the things he did, through what we even claim about him. And then we go through and go through all of his Indian policies and the massacres, and then we map them out and show where they took place. And again, it's just, josh: Mmm. mark_charles___wirelessho

gan_: it becomes so clear. So the last massacre that he enacted was the massacre at Sand Creek, which was on November 29 of 1864. The Cheyenne and Arapaho were on their treaty lands and they were at Sand Creek and they were waving a white flag of surrender and an American flag to show that they were there peacefully. A Union army, led by a Methodist pastor, came over the hill. The warriors, the young men of the tribe, were out hunting. So it was women and children and elders who were there. orde

red, all of them slaughtered. proof demonstrated that they, the soldiers in celebration of the massacre, paraded the genitalia of the Cheyenne Rappau down the streets of Denver to celebrate this massacre. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: This is the final one. Now, again, in 1862, Abraham Lincoln signed the Pacific Railway Act and the Homestead Act. The Homestead Act allocated 160 acres and would only go west Well, Railway Act allocated the land and the resour

ces to complete the Transcontinental Railway. Okay? So, on November 29, 1864, this final massacre, which helps clear the way for the central route to get through Colorado, takes place. A week later, one week later, in his annual address on December 6 of 1864, Abraham Lincoln that 1.5 million acres were entered under the Homestead Law and the great enterprise of connecting the Pacific States by rail, the Atlantic with the Pacific States by railway and telegraph lines has been entered upon with a

vigor that gives assurance of success. He is now openly confident that we're gonna complete Manifest Destiny and the Trump's gonna roll it because this massacre is just taking place. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Oh, crazy. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And so what I've learned about Lincoln is I can't deconstruct him in part because he is not only our greatest president, he's our Messiah figure. He represents the salvation of our country, going from a country with enslavement to a country w

ithout enslavement. And so the reason I address him for two chapters in this book and for 45 minutes in my lecture is because if I don't deconstruct Lincoln completely, people will cling to him like their physical and their spiritual lives depend on it. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Doesn't even matter their faith tradition. He's what keeps the mythology of America intact. And so I have to do a very third him. And I have to make people wrestle with, yeah, t

his is what he said and this is what he did and not only that, but this is the reason why we celebrate him. Right? This is why both the left and the right consider him our greatest leader, because he literally gave us the tools that we're using today to keep people of color marginalized. Right? jurisdiction of the criminal justice system. Neither slavery nor voluntary servitude except as a punishment for crime. Wherever the party has been doing this is the justice system that has the highest inc

arceration rate today of any country in the world and incarcerates people of color at three to five times the rate they've incarcerated white people. This was the vision of Abraham Lincoln. He didn't know what to do with these formerly enslaved people who he was them full citizens of the country and it was impractical to send them back to Africa. So what was he to do? Well there's where we get the clause in the 13th Amendment which keeps enslavement legal in our criminal justice system and gives

white supremacy a place to be constitutionally protected. That was his vision because will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, I... mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: he didn't know what else to do with these people of color will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, Lincoln probably would have been okay with Jim Crow laws, huh? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Oh, he gave us the tool to create them. That was the entire vision of the 13th Amendment. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, that's... mark_cha

rles___wirelesshogan_: Again, he agreed with Dred Scott. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, crazy. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: That's will_wright__faithful_politics_: Up. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: how he introduced himself. will_wright__faithful_politics_: So, so, Mark, my last question, just so we can kind of be sensitive to time here is, you know, I know that through your activism and your book and others that probably do, you know, similar work, like, like, maybe you can talk abou

t sort of the level of representation or lack there of representation, you know, and DC and Congress, like who, who are advocates that that can help? help level the playing field, so to speak. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So this is the challenge. And this is where our book, one of the reasons I'm convinced our book is not a New York Times bestseller is because Suamshan and I make a bipartisan critique. Right, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: if we wanted t

o have a new bestseller, we would have only critiqued the left or only critiqued the right. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: We critique both. And so no one wants to deal with it. And so the challenge that I face here is these values We have Ruth Bader Ginsburg acknowledging the doctrine of discovery. We have Donald Trump breaking treaties with native nations, with the Wampanoag nation in 2020. We have both sides are advocating for these things, even the whol

e notion of white Christian nationalism. I want to share this quote with you because we're having a debate today about white Christian nationalism and the bulk of that blame is being put in front of the feet of white evangelical And I don't disagree that white evangelicals have done a lot and they know they've done it, right? They know that they've supported and voted for something that is contrary to what their own scriptures talk about. They're very aware of that. One of the biggest events on

my book tour was in Orange City, Iowa, right? I mean, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I speak regularly to white evangelicals and I know very much what's going on there. They're very aware of what's going on. And so, for example, after the lynching of George Floyd, we had the clearing of the protests going on around police violence, including in Lafayette Park in Washington, DC. And on June 1 of 2020, law enforcement goes in and they aggressively clear Lafa

yette Park. And Donald Trump, a few hours later, walks out across the park, stands in front of what Church, holds up his Bible upside down at first, he turns it around, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: takes a picture, and walks back, right? Has says hardly nothing. And he was called out immediately for what he was doing, which was he was giving a dog whistle to white Christian nationalists, right? And that was very clear. It was very blatant. And he was call

ed out immediately. Now in that election, Joe Biden was running as the antithesis to Donald Trump, right? He said, if you elect me, I will bring statesmanship back into the White House. I will speak in more complete sentence structures. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I will not do my foreign policy over Twitter. I will bring this, I will be a statesman in the White House. And he got elected based on that. And he got tested in 2021 when there was a terrorist

attack in Afghanistan. It was a major attack. Several U.S. service members lost their lives. attack. President Biden had to address it. And so he gave a speech and in his speech, he said this. He said to those who carried out this attack, as well as anyone who wishes America harm, know this. We will not forgive. We will not forget. We will hunt you down and make you pay. I will defend our interests and our people with every measure of my command. Now had I not told you who said that, everyone w

ould assume that was this quote by Donald Trump or another Republican. The difference is, the challenge is, it doesn't matter which side. And actually Joe Biden and Donald Trump, once they both get scared, they sound and talk very, very similarly. Listen to how Joe Biden responds to reporters when he's asked about his children. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Almost the same as Donald Trump. After this terrorist attack, he says, I'm going to use every meas

ure of my command. Now just two months ago, right, the nation was in an uproar because of Vladimir Putin thing. In Ukraine, he said, if I feel my country is being threatened or my people are being threatened, I will use every measure of my command to protect my country. And the West, especially here in the United States and DC, people are like, a gas, how can you speak that way? You're a nuclear power, how dare you talk that way? That's threatening nuclear warfare. Well, this is how our presiden

ts talk all He goes on in his speech and he thanks the Secretary of the Defense and the Military Leadership and appreciates their unanimous work to bring this to a conclusion. And then he says, to those who have served through the ages and drawn inspiration from those who have served through the ages have drawn inspiration from the book of Isaiah and the American military has been answering for a long time, here am I Lord, send me. Here I am, send me. In the State of the Union, Joe Biden used th

e word sacred twice. He talked about the capital as a sacred space to give a speech, and he talked about our sacred obligation to care for our veterans. of those who fight wars on our behalf. But Joe Biden uses the word sacred. Why would he bring in the aspect of the divine regarding our veterans? Well, because he believes the US military is the army of the Lord, responding to a prophetic call on par with Isaiah the prophet. If you think white Christian nationalism is a partisan problem to be la

id only at the feet of evangelicals, you're watching way too much CNN and MSNBC. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha ha mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: They're not going to tell you these things because it would ruin their bottom line. They would lose viewership. Fox News doesn't have the theological acumen to make this analysis. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So we don't know how to have this debate when white Christian nationalism is at the center o

f how we identify as a nation. It's a bipartisan value. It's a bipartisan problem, but we talk about it like it's a partisan problem, actually an individual partisan problem. And if we can just vote this person out of office or de-center that single individual, we're going to fix it. And that is so far from the truth. We don't recognize how these things, whether it's land titles, whether it's white supremacy, Christian nationalism, these are our core values as a country written into our foundati

ons and celebrated by both parties and people of both conservative and liberal religious beliefs. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow. So, so, josh: Man. will_wright__faithful_politics_: are you running for president again in 2024? Because if so, this would be a great time to announce it. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So, I have been watching very closely, right, and I still am convinced when I ran in 2020 the theme of my campaign was I wanted to build a nation where we the people means all th

e people. I wanted to address things at a foundational level and I felt like one of the best ways to do it was not only through a campaign but through being elected president. I wasn't running a protest campaign. solutions to what we needed to address as a nation. I still believe that. The things I learned out of 2020 is first of all, it's impossible to have an adult conversation with Donald Trump in the room. It's will_wright__faithful_politics_: That's mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: just will_

wright__faithful_politics_: fair. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: impossible. The media cannot help itself, but to cover every absurd and narcissistic thing that he says, right? CNN was just as upset as Fox News when he left office, because they lost their gravy train, right? I mean, they had a guaranteed nightly highlight reel of things they could say and talk about. And they lost that when he left daily political life. And so I'm not, I don't think I could change the dialogue with Donald Trump

and Joe Biden at the center of that conversation. I also learned that because I ran as an independent and I'm adamant to run outside the two-party system. I did not have a large enough platform, and I was not able to gain platform through the presidential campaign process. When you run as a Democrat or as a Republican, you have their kind of infrastructure to help build up your voice, right, through will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: the primary systems and thos

e things. But because I was running outside that, and because the things I was talking about were so foundational and not only required explanation, but were things our nation didn't want to It was easier for both the parties as well as the media rather than attack me. It was actually better for them to ignore me. And will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I didn't have enough of a wave of support or platform where I had to be included. Right? So it was easier just t

o, even if they attacked me, I would, that would still bring attention to me and they didn't want to do that. But I'm looking going into the 2024 election and people are beginning to decide what they're going to do and Trump's already announced and Nikki Haley's announced and a few others have announced. I'm thinking I'm going to sit out 2024. will_wright__faithful_politics_: I Know mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: and I'm gonna look at the longer game. So I don't think I will, I think if I ran ag

ain in 2024, because my platform hasn't grown significantly and because it's gonna include the very same characters who were involved in 2020, and the media is gonna be obsessing over one of those characters, I'm like, I think if I ran again, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome. level of obscurity we had in 2020. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So I'm playing the long game and thinking, okay, what can I do outside of a political campaign now to elevate

these topics, to bring them more to the center of our national dialogue, and then maybe in 2028 or beyond, will it be a, can we reevaluate and make it and decide, yeah, to enter in at that point. But the moment because of the way it looks like things are going to shape up in, you know, and if Joe Biden announces, which most likely he will do, he will get very little opposition. He'll get some, but very little opposition from the left. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Oh, Marion Williams, and I m

ean, she, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: She's will_wright__faithful_politics_: she, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: already ran, yeah, she announced already, yeah, but again, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, well, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: yeah. will_wright__faithful_politics_: here's my recommendation. If you do run, run on a platform that you will declassify all the files on UFOs mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Thank you. will_wright__faithful_politics_: and you'll get national atten

tion and people will probably vote for that, you know? That's a freebie. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Well, so josh: Yes. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: again, this is where I am committed to not being a normal politician, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: right? And josh: Exactly. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: not just saying things to get like so. If I were president, and yet because of the way I campaigned and the support I got and the things I did,

I was boxed in and not able to advocate for the things I felt like, that a waste of that work. I'm listening to on Audible right now President Obama's book, A Promised Land. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh-huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: There's many in the African-American community and other communities of color who felt like and even he acknowledges he could have addressed race more directly. But he reports in the book that they made the conscious decision to not center his voice and

his entire presidential campaign hinged the strategy that they came up with it hinged on him winning Iowa. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Now Iowa is the fifth whitest state in the country and they have the highest rate of private lands of any state in the country. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: So he had to make himself palatable and he had a year to do it to white land owning men. men without de-centering the dialog

ue around race, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah, that's true. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: which is what he did. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And so, listening to his book, there's many ways, I think, I don't know if I would say he would go as far as regretting it, but he acknowledges he missed some opportunities because of the way he got to office. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Mm-hmm. Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And for me, I'm lik

e, there's no point being in office. forward towards change, that's happening already. That's happening. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Hmm. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I'm saying I think we can get this change within a lifetime, but we have to address our nation differently. And so my whole goal is to, if I'm going to be there, is because I want to talk directly about these things, will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: and I don't want to push them off to th

e side. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for spending some time with us. I swear I could spend another hour with you, but we just can't josh: Yeah, will_wright__faithful_politics_: right josh: man. will_wright__faithful_politics_: now. But we would definitely love to have you back on the show at some point in time to, josh: Yes, love to connect again, will_wright__faithful_politics_: like, josh: dude. will_wright__faithful_politics_: a part josh: Talk w

ill_wright__faithful_politics_: two josh: more about will_wright__faithful_politics_: of this josh: this. will_wright__faithful_politics_: conversation. josh: It's fascinating. will_wright__faithful_politics_: So, um, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, I would love that. I'm actually, I'm writing a second book right now called Decolonizing Faith. And it's looking even more directly at the church. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Uh-huh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And so there's a lot of, t

his josh: Yeah, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: is josh: that'll be great. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: putting some twists on some of the themes I've talked about and even, so I'm really looking forward to this next year, year and a half of writing this book, but also one of my goals of the next year, with not only the legacy of Lincoln, but why we celebrate Lincoln. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Wow. josh: There mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: And josh: you go, dude. mark_charles___wireless

hogan_: I'm looking to take that conversation much more nationally in the next two years. josh: You're gonna have to put your fighting gloves on. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ha ha. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Well, again, I'm looking to not that I want to be attacked, but I at least josh: Sure, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: want josh: no, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: to be josh: I got mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: recognized josh: you. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: as someone who jo

sh: Of course. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: should, who need, you need to have an opinion on rather than just someone who can be ignored. josh: Sure, totally. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Yeah. Yeah. How can people learn more about you? You know, where can they go? mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Yeah, so on my website, this is the best place, it's kind of a central place, wirelesshogan.com, W-I-R-E-L-E-S-S-H-O-G-A-N.com, wirelesshogan.com, that's my website that has links to all of my soci

al media. People can actually buy signed copies of my book on wirelesshogan.com on my website. And I'm actually doing what I call my book study special, where if groups want to study my book in the group of 10 or so, their study group of 45 minute virtual Q&A will_wright__faithful_politics_: Ah, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: in the next year will_wright__faithful_politics_: oh, cool. josh: Nice. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: that they can schedule with me. So it's been a great way for not only

for people to engage more in depth with me, but for me to engage with the people who are reading my book and to have conversations and go deeper in some of the questions. So yeah, josh: That's awesome. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: I'm on most social media as wireless Hogan on my YouTube channel, which again is wireless Hogan. drink my cup will_wright__faithful_politics_: Thank mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: of coffee will_wright__faithful_politics_: you. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: and tal

k about the social, political and religious events of the day. Later this week, actually tomorrow I'm talking with Shane Claiborne. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Oh, mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: Next week I'm talking will_wright__faithful_politics_: oh. mark_charles___wirelesshogan_: with another native activist named Sarah Augustine. But yeah, there's a lot of ways. If you Google my name, Mark Charles, or Mark Charles Navajo, you'll get a lot of my videos, a lot of my documents, and a lot

of my social media. will_wright__faithful_politics_: Awesome. josh: Great. will_wright__faithful_politics_: That's really awesome. Well, thanks again, Mark, for your time, your expertise, your knowledge. And yeah, we love having you on and we'd love to have you on again. And to all of our listeners and viewers out there, yeah, thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next week. Take josh: Yes, will_wright__faithful_politics_: care. josh: thanks.