What is happening in Israel-Palestine War? Abhijit Iyer-Mitra Breaks it down, The Ranveer Show 359

you know a lot of people listening to this are going to assume that you're pro Israel yes you are pro Israel I am explain to me why I shouldn't be Pro Palestine Israel gives a 10-minute warning and then they B there's a lot of pro Palestine people watching this asking you how you know that you tell me Randy how many of these friends of yours sharing all these Instagram stories will not at least attempt to free the other person if held hostage do I shoot risking your cousin's life to save myself

or do I just put my hands up and say kill me I am Jesus Christ crucify me I die for the whole world do you think that there's propaganda that's spread in favor of Israel as well of course there's a propaganda spread in favor of Israel all the time my heart goes towards Palestine civilians children women do not deserve to die at all I have an Israeli friend who actually got murdered shot so badly by the Hamas militants that they couldn't recognize his body you should be Pro Palestine I Am pro Isr

ael but I am Pro Palestine but being pro Palestine is not being pro Hamas is not being pro Terror no matter matter what you say now there's a whole section of the audience that's just categorized you as pro-israel and anti-muslim yeah which is a lot of the pro Palestine argument on social media that 50% of the debts are children why should kids be a part of a political conflict I'm trying to approach this from as neutral a perspective as I possibly can go this is not a pro-israel statement this

is a statement from the perspective of trying to learn more you're going to get abused very badly for this podcast yeah that's fine I'm complet completely aware of how sensitive an issue this whole Israel Palestine situation is my intention with every single episode that we create on TRS is to bring you a very neutral very objective perspective but I do believe in listening to subject experts my request is that you please listen to this episode till the end more importantly you listen to the squ

el episode which is much more about the history of Israel and Palestine I feel only at the end of of these two episodes can you truly form an opinion about the situation so be patient with this episode do share this episode as much as possible the news or even social media is never going to show you the entire truth that's just how old media works but it's the age of New Media it's the age of podcasts and TRS is here with one of India's foremost geopolitical experts he holds a master's degree in

political science and international relations he's one of the most qualified people to talk about International conflict he's been on the show earlier he's a legend of the Indian podcasting space his name is abijit a Mitra and he's one of my absolute favorite people to speak to on the show so enjoy this episode and I hope that I was able to do justice to this as a podcaster I'd love to hear your feedback at the end but for now sit back and let's learn [Music] together [Music] this is the India

perspective on the Israel Palestine War we have abijit a Mitra with us welcome back to TRS thanks man it's always fun being on your podcast likewise you're one of the guests I look forward to the most uh because of all the data that's retained but also the flow of the conversation I always enjoy talking to you you have no idea how much um and I mean with anyone who we repeat on the show it's usually because it's great conversations and I think actually a lot of teenagers college students hell ev

en adults people are parents's age are actually consuming podcasts now for the sake of conversation and learning the truth um let me begin this Israel Palestine situation with a pertinent question are we seeing the truth on the news you're not seeing the truth on the news but you are seeing the truth on social media and I'll tell you why I think after Elon Musk removed all these um you know content filters and uh uh God knows how many 20 million people they employed to do content moderation we a

re now seeing unfiltered news from the ground come through uh so it's almost like doing primary source intelligence you know primary source research which is much better than news which is always tainted with an editorial angle ke you know we have to show you this we can't show you this we don't want to show you this or we're going to spin it this way so I have not ever since Twitter got freed I'm really not even watching the news if I I like go to a News website to see what the latest thing hap

pening is and then I just go to Twitter to follow primary sources and see what's happening on the ground ground out there uh the big reason that I believe podcasts are taking off on a worldwide scale is because of the concept of Steel Manning yeah steel Manning basically means taking a topic putting forth your perspective also putting forth the positives of the perspective that's supposedly against your own so there is no black and white it's all a spectrum of gray and you try Landing up on the

right shade of gray through conversation now this is not possible on the news this is why podcasting has taken off this is why Joe Rogan and Lex Freedman and all these guys have careers that they steal man arguments which is what I want to begin Israel Palestine and this whole situation with my heart goes towards Palestine in terms of H civilians children women do not deserve to die at all uh this is you know men at War political leaders at War right uh now parall I have an Israeli friend who ac

tually got murdered in the this music concert okay and I knew him for a very very long time he was shot so badly by the Hamas militants that they couldn't recognize his body yeah um family is going through hell right now um so when you when you hear all these situations again you don't land up on either side you just face the brutality of war and you try steel Manning arguments yeah uh so the whole purpose of this convers is to give you a very structured Steelman approach I'd love to hear what y

ou think of everything that I said right now and your own opinion of course so let's start with first the Hindu affection for Israel yeah right uh some of it is but remember the um am I allowed to use a swear word go for it uh if you're one of those who are like yeah man I support Israel because they're killing Muslims that is a small percentage of Hindus um I can tell you I'm right-wing and on my timeline I've only seen one or two Schmucks who have said that and I've unfollowed them because tha

t's not the kind of friend that I want to have yeah 99.99% of the people and by the way those are the two people that places like BBC or Al jazer will take as a representative of all Indian Hindus okay um 99.99% of the people on my timeline which is quite right-wing do not think that they have a great deal of Sympathy for the average Palestinian and their anger is that Hamas is using women and children as human Shields okay which they are because remember if you look at the pr War out here the m

ilitary war you can't overcome Israel Israel is an absolute superpower in the region everybody in that region has tried to take down Israel and they've all failed very miserably and paid a very heavy price for it the are doing and you know how those reels and Instagram reels and things tget your heart their strategy is to see to it Israel kills as many women and children as possible so as to Target your heart so that your heart takes over from your brain for Israel it is bad PR to kill so Israel

actually first of all they don't have a bloodlust to kill second it is bad PR for them because every Palestinian woman or child killed hurts their cause whereas every Palestinian woman or child killed increases hamas's support base it helps hamas's uh PR argument see they can't counter Israel militarily so they counter Israel PR wise that's how things play out and you know it's natural human instinct you tell me who will not support the underdog okay except the problem is we think of this as th

e underdog they are technically the pr overdog Hamas is and Israel is the pr Underdog number one uh number two let's get back to Hindus um what Hindus see is that you know where what vs Nall called a deeply wounded civilization uh you know we've been colonized for the last Thousand Years uh it's been Massacre after Massacre after Massacre after Massacre uh there is not a single old uh Temple standing in North India all the old temples are in the South there's nothing left standing in North India

uh that's more than a few hundred years old unless they were lost like kajra was lost in the forests and things like that uh they are not uh you've in our own lifetimes we've seen the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri pundits in Kashmir uh we've seen uh uh what is essentially a sort of denial of rights to Mighty tribals in Manipur happen right now in the same year that all of this has happened uh there is anger and there is this feeling that Israel is kindered but it it stands up for itself the aver

age Hindu is like the Jew before the Holocaust you know the Jew before the Holocaust was the good Jew that everybody liked he didn't take a pistol and go shoot he didn't stand up for himself when he was sent to the gas chamber he went like a cow to the slaughter you know you know how cows are killed no they put a pressure gun To The Head and the um Steel Jack goes right through the brain it essentially causes the brain to explode and the cow dies immediately and uh that is their idea of a good J

ew and what they do to the good Jew is kill the good Jew okay uh but after the Holocaust they realized they couldn't continue like this you know the biggest supporters who uh I won't say supporters but the big the the loudest voice saying Hitler wasn't going to kill Jews they're in fact German Jews they said you know this guy's he's not really going to say what he does but he did we all know he did so there was a civilization a community change that happened in their mindset what the rest of the

world seems to want is for the Jew to go back to being that good Jew who just dies when you tell him to die and they're not going to do that and Hindus there is a lot of frustration in feeling that you know where the good Hindus where the Democratic lovely Multicultural state that the New York Times and Washington Post used to love as as long as we were ready to get butchered and the moment we stand up for ourselves we're fascist Nazis who uh should essentially be looked at as the Third Reich c

an be bombed in and divided up like East and West Germany where under two or four different zones of influence um that doesn't work second it is much deeper cultural ties remember because you know Israel is a Jewish State it's the only Jewish State and a religion born from there called Christianity Jesus Christ wasn't a Christian he was a a Jew uh but Christianity became the dominant religion in the west but the point of origin remained Jewish similarly India the point of origin remained Hindu b

ut we spawned Hinduism spawned a religion called Buddhism which took over the East but the point of origin remained uh Hindu so there is that similarity the third similarity is you see that the diaspora of both you know there's this concept of the Hindu in America after Protestant Cath Catholic marriages Hindu Jewish marriages are the highest why because we are both Urban peaceful communities that don't go around rioting and burning things on the street uh very educated focus on you know uh uh u

h family uh being peaceful doing things through the law etc etc there is a reason that Hindus and Jews have the highest per capita incomes of any diaspora anywhere in the world uh the fourth reason behind all of this is the fact that you know we've never had anti-Semitism in this country we don't know what it is to hate a Jew so you know many Jews who come to India get upset that you know sometimes oh like a lot of my Jewish my Israeli friends would come here and oh you're Israeli and like what

the hell dude he's not being anti-semitic we don't know what it is to be anti-semitic in India so we don't even understand what the gravity of Hitler is to the Jewish mind I'll tell you why in the Christian world the Jew is the person who killed Jesus they are God killers they literally the assura who killed the dasas or whatever right and mind you this was a rhetorical device anything in if you look at Pontius Pilot's record in Judea in the Roman province of Judea uh it'll show you that he was

an absolutely nasty character uh who would have had absolutely no compunctions ordering this Rebel who was becoming a Law and Order problem to be crucified uh but when the Christian Cannon was written the whole point of early Christianity was to co-opt the Roman state so they wanted to absolve Rome the Roman Empire of guilt and pass that guilt off onto other Jewish because Christianity is a Jewish faction remember that they wanted to pass it off onto all the Rival factions and blame them for it

so you know Rome didn't do it Pontius pilot washes his hands and it is the uh um what's it called the uh was it called the knesset in those days the rabet the rabet that decided to I think it's called something hagah I forget the equivalent of the uh what's the Christian one called the the the the Roman curia I guess uh the papal curia kind of like that the the the Supreme uh uh Council of uh um priests religious governance right and uh the religious governance body uh that sentenced him take so

they have always carried this burden of being the ones who killed our God and they have been targeted for it the second problem is both Islam and Christianity did not allow Finance did not allow Usery which is to say interest taking right so the only people allowed to take interest were the Jews now every every time you wanted to um I've taken 12 years worth of debts from you I now realize I can't pay it back what do I do uh I can't pay it back I'm not going to allow you to destroy my life by t

aking over my property so I say ranir aladia or in this case let's give you a Jewish name let's call you uh Yakov finlin Yakov finlin uh kidnapped uh uh my maid's baby and drank his blood in his Satanic god-killing rituals demonic rituals and so remember in pre-industrial societies riots happen like that you spark off a u rumor it leads to a riot they would all come and they would butcher your family and my debt is clean so this whole concept of blood liable that you shed the blood of Christ and

therefore you should be killed for you are you're not demons but you're not much closer either was developed as a means of first making them do all the finance and then you couldn't pay back your debts to kill them off right it was a very sick sadistic way of running things now remember in the Muslim World also you are not allowed to do finance and so a lot of the financial duties again fell on the Jews and the same Dynamics would overtake it the difference was it it is not fair to say that the

Muslim world wasn't anti-semitic the Muslim world was deeply anti- Semitic because the same dynamics of Finance you don't want to do finance and you want to kill off your uh your creditor um but the Jews didn't kill the Muslim God therefore it was slightly of a of a slightly less caliber than what you saw in Christian Europe right and this is how this whole Jew hate plays out so you see chronic anti-Semitism but for Hindus I mean when is interest taking been wrong you know we we don't look at t

hese things so Jews could do when they came here they could do whatever they wanted you want to be a fisherman do it you want to do banking or Finance do it you want to become a chief minister there were Jewish Chief ministers to uh and prime ministers to several of the Kings along the west coast and things do it who's stopping you uh so you know there was no restrictions on them and there's no killing of the God there is so so you know the sociological reasons for Jew hatred never existed in In

dia and for that reason we don't even understand what Hitler did because I can tell you being an I was a cbsc student so Central Board of secondary education and you know how much was taught to us about the Holocaust exactly one line uh the Holocaust happened and uh the and Germany killed off about 5 million Jews it was literally one sentence one line and you know this is cbsc which is a much more globally integrated curriculum the states and things like that have no idea out there and you know

the tamad board under the admk actually had some lines praising Hitler um it was embarrassing but the point is you don't know what Hitler did so somebody looking at Hitler on balance where there's just one line about the Holocaust but then there's all this thing about how he built up Germany's honor and this and that and whatever nonsense like for those of us who have read about the Holocaust you know okay so these are all small things and mass murder especially that kind of sadistic mass murder

is that big but for an average Indian who hasn't even traveled abroad low per capita income how how do you tell that difference so you know it's but that is not what Al jazer sees they do something very mischievous the same way blood liel is put on to Jews in the Christian world and now the Muslims have also adopted blood liel they've started making up stories of how Jews kidnap uh Muslim Marty child and uh drink its blood for their rituals and things like that Al jaaz does that to Hindus they

take the two Hindus saying yeah man go bomb Muslims like every religion has its man I can show you Jewish there were uh uh that who I saw on Twitter who were pissing on the bodies of uh uh Hamas killed but that doesn't Define Israel or a Jew that is a shitty Jew uh who exist there are shitty Indians who exist just because somebody we have rapes and murders in India doesn't mean all Indians are rapists and murderers now so we have pedophiles in India that doesn't make all Indians pedophiles but t

hat is what Al jazer wants to stereotype and do it Al jaaz is actually an absolute mirror of the Jew who was pissing on the Hamas bodies and the guys on Twitter who are saying go uh uh kill Gins because they're Muslims so this is one part which is the Hindu part what do you make of like the current situation in terms of I mean a very raw way of asking you this is which side are you on right and sorry it was the Muslim side as well we we we want to discuss Hindus and then Indian Muslims and then

which side am I on yeah te um so now let's talk about Indian Muslims right uh there is an increasing feeling amongst Indian Muslims or at least the Muslims who are visible and heard that they are uh p persecuted in India okay that there is an imminent genocide going to happen and what happened in Germany is going to happen to what happened to Jews in Germany is going to happen to them they've been fed a whole load of cods wallup uh about the origin of Israel which we're going to talk about later

and how there's a colonial project and you know it's now remember the average Indian how many protests run have you seen on the street since this thing broke out nothing no so there is a huge Discord between what we're told is the Indian Muslim opinion which you see with englishspeaking and politically important Muslims on Instagram and Twitter which you're not seeing translated on the ground out here uh there isn't you know uh riots happening and things like you remember during the Danish cart

oons people were burning yilan Poston and uh uh all of that we're not seeing that here this time why is that so you know I think the average Muslim basically doesn't care what's happening out there because their lives are you know they're working they're working people they don't have time to come out and do uh you know protests and all that crap so it's it's I do accept that for the in for the high disposable income uh significant spare time Indian Muslim who has time to post on Instagram this

is an issue because they are connected with the world and they see uh sort of religious justification key there is an umah you know the Muslim the global Muslim uh feeling of fraternity and Brotherhood that should exist which means they should speak about this to uh uh they should speak about uh fellow Muslims being slaughtered by Israel and again we come to the point in India we have the lowest possible knowledge of what is happening in Palestine and Israel because we keep getting so much propa

ganda out here who's actually going to sit down and do a historical deep dive right uh nobody wants to do historical Deep dive they all want these sort of 15 seconds what's your hot take on this bro and then that's it so this is part two the um Indian Muslim do you think that there's propaganda that's spread in favor of Israel as well of course there's a propaganda spread in favor of Israel all the time right and uh uh you know I I tell me one country that doesn't do propaganda I mean Israel wou

ld be stupid when it's being attacked to not be doing a propag not have a propaganda in PR Division and being uh you know uh doing what it needs to to uh get a better name for itself but all people do propaganda you know a lot of people listening to this are going to assume from here on in this conversation that you're pro Israel yes you are pro is I am because on balance you know I can't sit around and AC accept that you will not condemn terrorists going around torturing raping and killing wome

n and children and non-combatant Men okay I I just want to pause you there for a second if someone knows you in person or has consumed enough of your content uh you are someone who steal man's arguments like you break down things you see it from 360° perspective I personally don't know anyone who studies as much as you maybe abijit CH you know you're on that kind of Realm of just the Quantum of information you absorb um now currently as it stands based on what I've seen on my friends's social me

dia I have a dear friend Alia alasi I have so many other friends who keep sharing Pro Palestinian stuff uh when I see it one my heart breaks because the pr hits me in the heart yeah that Palestinian kids Arab kids are dying Arab women are dying Etc and then there's a part of me as a podcaster which has spoken to enough subject experts to know that that hey the news that you see on social media also sometimes can be mored to make you feel a certain way or entire narratives are not given absolutel

y uh so what I'm going to request you to do is explain to me why I shouldn't be Pro Palestine because currently you should be Pro Palestine I I'm Pro I'm pro Israel but I am Pro Palestine I want to see a two- State solution with a Palestine that lives in peace with itself and peace with the outside world okay but being pro Palestine is not being pro Hamas being pro Palestine is not being pro Terror being a pro two State solution is not being pro raping and killing women and children I think we n

eed to make that distinction we can always condemn The Killing and this is where the Shades of Gray come in again uh Hamas is using Palestinian women and children as shields in Israel you will never see a military facility collocated with a civilian facility military facilities will be kept far away from civilian facilities so that even when uh if some catastrophic War happens and a military facility gets bombed the people get saved in Gaza the military facilities are deliberately kept under civ

ilian facilities under schools under hospitals under uh uh colleges uh in civilian buildings civilian residential highrises where is the Steelman here where is the shade of gray here see if if uh you know um I come and stab you where is the shade of gray in I empathize with ranvir for getting stabbed but I empathize with abijit for being abijit is also Victim Because he was a victim of circumstances who stabbed ranir it doesn't work that way right I think we need to separate uh terrorism Hamas a

nd this Cult of brutality and essentially what is a death cult from the average Palestinian now I've actually spent 10 days in Gaza and when uh this was in what 20145 some sometime around that time um the West Bank is different because West Bank you know I go in for a Day come out I set up meetings go and meet people come out it's very easy to go in and out of the West Bank uh Gaza it isn't because of Hamas um now what ends up happening out there is it's such a dysfunctional Society people live

in fear it's a small strip people don't realize this it's 1/4 the size of Delhi you know it's uh it say the length of Bombay the peninsula of Bombay if you draw the length of the peninsula of Bombay and about 7 km wide it's about that much so you know basically the worldly SE link when you're going over the waterly ceiling if you see the width of the bay that it covers think of that wide but about uh 50 60 km long okay that's it it's the size of the Bombay Peninsula Bombay is much bigger than Ga

za small place uh 2.5 million people so it's not as densely populated as Indian cities are but for the West it is there are so many factions out there there has only been one government a Hamas government which has never held elections the average Palestinian doesn't even get to decide uh if they are satisfied or not satisfied with the government you tell me 17 18 years under a blockade not being able to travel in and out or whatever and that's incidentally fake they do actually get to travel a

lot I we'll talk about that when we uh talk about their jobs and how this attack was carried out um for there to be absolutely no dissent against your government give me a break that is not normal this does not happen in normal count where there is zero dissent and everybody's like super happy with your leadership and they think they're great Heroes fighting the resistance battle no I have seen fear in the eyes of Palestinian women uh for their children uh I have also seen that fear come out in

deep conversations over hours but it doesn't come out immediately uh it is very subcutaneous because if those fears are expressed in P publicly it leads to nasty consequences for you and your family uh Hamas is not nice to its own people uh and this is you know where because you or me watching what Israel is doing nobody likes unless you're very sick in the mind you don't like watching buildings being blown hospitals being blown empty hospitals mostly by the way uh because Israel gives a 10-minu

te warning they do a tap which is your signal get out you have 10 minutes to get out and then they bomb the place you there's a lot of pro Palestine people watching this asking you how you know that I know that because I've seen it I've seen the uh remote video footage of what that tap looks like I've spoken to Gins who all know what that tap sounds like uh or what it's meant to be they are all sent sms's because I've seen uh those smss I wasn't there when any bombing took place so I haven't see

n it firsthand but I've seen those sms's on their phones and you know and the very surprising part of that conversation is they'll deny Ever Getting Any smss they'll deny ever getting a warning and they'll say you know oh they just uh bombed us and my cousin died became Shahid and then you know over two three days when you have warmed them up they can slowly open up to you you get to see their phones I don't read Arabic very well I have very rudimentary knowledge of Arabic uh but it is a warning

that has been smsed to them uh from the Israeli military saying your house has been targeted get out you have so many minutes to get out I forget now is it 7 minutes or 10 minutes I think it's s maybe not 10 uh to get out and that was based on a calculation that this was explained to me that seven is enough for the people to evacuate but not for the equipment and the ammunition stored there to be evacuated and it's enough for the person to run far away enough so that the secondary detonation of

the ammunition in there uh doesn't harm them um so it's it's a very well practiced routine right um so here's the thing is is there Collective punishment happening yes but they want you to look at this as collective punishment in isolation the problem is there is hostage taking it's not just Israelis who are held hostage it is the vast majority of the gazan population that is being held as a human shield hostage by Hamas supporting Hamas is islamophobia Hamas are not Muslims they are uh they ar

e what you'd call uh uh uh I shaan IB which are the names for the demon than the devil they are the sons and daughters of devils they are not Muslims let's be clear about that if you think they are Muslims that they are fighting for a Muslim cause you are sick uh no muslim will hold a fellow Muslim woman and child as a hostage and if you think it is legit then there's something very wrong with you they hold them hostage they hold the Palestinian population hostage deliberately now assume you are

the one holding somebody hostage uh say uh your cousin you're holding him hostage because I want to kill you but I don't I have no fight with your cousin right what do I do I know holding your cousin you have a gun which you're pointing at your cousin right now threatening to shoot if I come but if I lower my guard you're going to shoot me through the head do do I shoot risking your cousin's life to save myself or do I just put my hands up and say kill me I am Jesus Christ crucify me I die for

the whole world you know Jesus wasn't he was kind of rejected by most Jews for a reason and this turn the other cheek uh you know it's it's fantastic in books but it never works out in practice see he said turn the other cheek when somebody slaps you he didn't say show them the other side of your rib cage if somebody uh uh uh pierces you with a spear and as far as I remember when he was pierced with a spar with with a spear on the cross he didn't turn around and show the other side of his ribs d

id he you know there all these sort of rhetorically lovely philosophical that you hear you know like Gandhi uh uh an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind but look I mean I pluck out one eye of yours you pluck out one eye of mine then I pluck out the second eye of yours you're already blind and you know in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king So I've won an eye for an eye does not make the whole world blind and if I'm attacking you now I pluck out both your eyes first you've got n

othing left to do uh you might try but you won't be able to succeed till you learn you know uh ninja style um blind man blindfolded ranging and uh the things that you see in superhero movies it doesn't happen so all these um sayings they're fantastic they don't work in real life I would just ask your friends who are pro Palestine to examine their own self-beliefs what are you are you Pro the Palestinian people are you Pro Hamas are you uh uh because Hamas I can guarantee you is not pro Palestini

an and why do I say that I think it's very important We examined why Hamas is not pro Palestinian and why did we get to this stage what is the history out here see the Palestinian Authority which is formerly the PLO and the fat faction after like 40 50 years of running a Guerilla campaign and terrorism and whatnot they finally agree to sit down with Israel and talk Hamas refuses to even talk they don't want a two-state solution they want the whole of Palestine what is today Israel and their chan

t is from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free which is basically a call for genocide okay because the river is the Jordan River and the sea is the Mediterranean so all the Jews are to be pushed out into the sea you'll you'll keep hearing this tell me how do you sit down and talk to somebody who refuses to talk to you okay then Israel did make uh you know when there were kutas out there there was very significant agricultural employment you can go check out the peel report which came out

in the 1930s I think which shows that it was actually Jew Jewish migration which significantly improved the employment and the uh uh uh arability of land and everything out there but it led to Greater social tension you know why because them coming and enabling people and making them richer through employment threatened the feudal par structures out there which is incidentally you see that in India as well one of the very smart things Modi is doing is giving Muslims education to toilets and elec

tricity and things which are making them less dependent on the feudal leaders who have who they've depended for and those feudal leaders just like Hamas condom their own population they send them out for riots to die when to sort out those rights you have to make a deal with the leader and give him property or give him uh two three uh loksabha seats or rajas saaba seats or whatever power like you said and this is the problem of a feudal pass structure which has not modernized and what you see I

think Indians an international audience won't be able to relate to this because you know an international audience is Fred with Indian propaganda because you ask me about Israeli propaganda Indian propaganda that with this shining new it power you know which is Leap frogged people don't want to look at the nasty rural India pre-industrial India which hasn't changed since the 7eventh or 8th centuries it's 7th Century or 13th century India still exists if you go far enough outside of Bombay outsid

e of Delhi and places like that so I would really urge the people who are pro Palestine be Pro Palestine sure but that shouldn't prevent you from being able to condemn what Hamas does that shouldn't be able to and sure uh condemn Israel when it kills women and children deliberately do not take it out of context when somebody is holding their own people hostage if the Israelis shoot what you tell me ranir tell me how many of these friends of yours sharing all these Instagram stories will not at l

east attempt to free the other person if held hostage which you know they're going to die you know it's very easily said but when it push comes to shove I'm sure the reactions are going to be very different I can tell you honestly if if I was in that situation I would do what the Israelis do and shoot okay I'm not going to I'm like sure I'll be very upset that I killed somebody Innocent but ultimately my life is more important I'm sorry uh would they make a different decision I don't know but th

en also let's look at proportionality somebody has come into your country uh killed 1,400 people many of them torture raped uh and the Israelis generally don't talk about all of this crap because it happened right here where we are in Bombay you remember when that a similar attack happened on 2611 2008 uh they attacked the kabad house which is the Jewish house and unspeakable things were done to that lady out there it never came out in the news but I think we we've all known about it because we'

ve all seen the autopsy report in private it was I think we've all seen it we we know what was done to her rabbi's wife the rabbi's wife um and all of this is done what is a proportionate response to that I mean you tell me what what is Israel meant to do okay U assume assume you uh you're a nice guy you would't do this crap but let's just assume for the sake of argument you come to my house um you uh torture rape kill my entire family I don't I mean I have dogs which are like my children but an

yway um you TOR a rape kill my entire family um I have a gun in my hand the police are doing nothing I've called them 100 times in this case the UN or whatever they they're not doing anything they're just saying sir up you you manage what am I meant to do when you're about to do to my last living child what you've done to the rest of my family I don't know what is a proportionate response you know I want them to answer this question what is a proportionate response um I've never gotten a straigh

t answer for it I I will never get what is a proportionate response answer I will never get a clear answer there is always equivalence for do you condemn Hamas no but they do all of this and then when you bring out the fact that there is that there is a fundamental moral equivalence between targeting civilians and civilians being collateral damage of human Shields fine I mean by all means you want to be partisan and criticize Israel for bombing colleges or hospitals even if they're holding ammun

ition dumps fine you don't want to condemn Hamas for killing Jews fine will you at least condemn Hamas for holding Palestinians as hostages you know no matter what you say nowra there's a whole section of the audience that's just categorized you as prois and anti-muslim yeah so a very direct question to you are you anti-muslim no I not explain how you're not anti-muslim uh I not anti-muslim because I make a very clear distinction between jihadist and Muslims okay I know a lot of Muslims who are

very very disgusted by what uh uh Hamas has done I know a lot of Muslims who detest Hamas you know what the problem is they are are scared to come out and say it openly why because it breaks down family structures they get harassed within their Social Circles they lose a lot of their Social Circles some of them are brave enough to actually come out and say it so you know my friends Amna Ansari Khaled B zahak tanir all of these people and they will immediately again be uh classified as rented Mus

lims you know uh paid Muslims that have sold their souls to the Hindu uh to the Hindu Jewish conspiracy you know there's an actual term for that uh uh HUD yahood HUD saish yahood being the Jew HUD being the Hindu saish being conspiracy so you know Protocols of the Elders of Zion where uh uh Hindus are now Junior Partners in the protocols they are classified as that but do you know how many Muslims I know who really don't want this crap who are absolutely morally clear that what Hamas has done is

reprehensible who just won't come out because they get no support tomorrow if somebody can uh do you remember when the entire nupu Sharma thing controversy broke out uh people were killed in their houses just for expressing support for Nur Sharma there was a Muslim boy who posted saying you know this lady seems Brave and there was a whole crowd of Muslims that gathered outside his house extremist Muslims jihadist Muslims not just average Muslims uh who gathered outside his house to do him physi

cal harm and he had to be arrested for his own protection uh the uh Hindu tayor who was I mean you saw the video his head was sliced off had expressed support on a Facebook page the police in this country the enforcement mechanisms in this country are pathetic we are a third world country in terms of the state's Monopoly on violence we cannot provide protection to everybody uh and it is there in the west as well where extremists you know they can always take over a thing because Law and Orders g

enerally good out there so there's less police in India Law and Order was never good and we have less police the state of Terror they live in largely by their own people pretty much you know the Gaza Stockholm not even Stockholm syndrome they know the terror they're in Gaza may be Stockholm syndrome but India they're just petrified because they will get no support the state doesn't have the resources to protect them why will they go out on a limp so I make it very clear that you know being anti-

Hamas doesn't make you islamophobic uh in fact being pro Hamas makes you islamophobic uh I'm very clear that uh you can be an Indian Muslim and a very good Indian Muslim which is probably 90% of the population uh and you can be a Jihadi you can be a radicalized Jihadi I always make it very clear um I call people jihadis I don't call them mus Muslims I call them jihadis which is again taken as islamophobia I think it's important to talk about the argument for the pro Palestine side yes okay all

these friends of mine who are expressing sympathy uh for Palestine and it's reached that point like this issue has reached that point where now content creators actors cricketers are getting DM saying why aren't you talking about this we're not talking about this because Instagram is not the right place to talk about this this is the right place to talk about this and this is the right place to learn um I'm trying to approach this from as neutral a perspective as I possibly can go towards but uh

I know that even I'm going to be labeled on one side or the other all I can do is deep dive into this argument and keep trying to counter you for the sake of a better or or you can actually get a proponent of Palestine and we can do a 3 way uh after you get abused you're going to get abused very badly for this podcast that's fine um find one of the more eloquent people who abuses you invite him or her onto the podcast and we'll sit and do a three-way then who would who would probably abuse I do

n't know but find somebody who would abuse you and find the most eloquent person who abuses you or writes a article against you or whatever and invite them I mean we in India we believe in purva Paka the whole the whole concept of purva Paka where somebody's most deeply held beliefs are challenged in a academic environment not a environment of viciousness we should have that we should have more of that uh what do you think their arguments would be say if there was a third person here um their ar

gument would be that Israel kills yeah Israel kills but let's contextualize The Killing uh like we just did uh human Shield versus Collective punishment see there's there's nothing that says uh you know the Geneva Convention Outlaws human shielding in it doesn't tell you what what is right and what is wrong in the case of human shielding uh the Geneva Convention the Fourth Geneva Convention uh uh makes Collective punishment illegal but it doesn't tell you what is collective punishment in a hosta

ge situation or in a human shield situation right uh is firing at a hostage so this is fundamentally two cannons of international law clashing which has not been sorted out Collective punishment by itself is wrong human shielding by itself is wrong but what when Collective punishment is in response to human shielding what is the argument there what comes out on top in international law we don't know because nobody wants to answer that difficult question see everybody wants their little propagand

a Point uh what you keep getting is a lot of bad history uh from the Palestinian site uh and a lot of it comes from the fact that they can't accept that Israel is there and should exist once you accept that Israel is exist and a two and a two accept a two-state solution it becomes a lot easier to move forward in that conversation but you know there are first principles errors in a lot of the arguments that come from there which we'll discuss when we do the uh uh uh three-part series like there's

a lot happening geopolitically let's stick to the present and the future in this particular part one of the conversation uh for people who've been living under a rock how did this present situation begin you want to take it Forward well very simple the present situation began because Israel was complacent they actually thought Hamas was behaving itself unusually good behavior for a period of almost 2 years and uh they did not expect the attack to happen but then on the 7th and 8th of October uh

the defenses the Border defenses were breached and Hamas just went on a Rampage in southern Israel killing 1,400 odd people several of them were very sadistically torture rape killed and boasting about it putting it on social media uh putting it on mass distribution channels and you know to contextualize this in Israeli terms 1,400 dead is like a nuclear bomb going off in Indian terms it's like about what it's um 2.8 lakhs 280,000 people being killed uh you know it's psychologically it's the sa

me impact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on Japan and obviously Israel is going to respond to it uh which is what they're doing right now which everybody's crying foul about um the question really is what exactly did they want Israel to do what did they think Israel was going to do after an attack like that like sit down sit back and start sting uh you know singing Kumbaya and uh knit sweaters really okay um again this is a very very long conversation like that that's the only way to explain th

is topic and I do definitely want to address the pro Palestine side of things much more of that will happen in part two which is about the history of that piece of land that we call Israel in the modern day uh I want to just confirm certain things with you please correct me whever I'm wrong so the Hamas carry out this attack they can't be stupid enough to think that there's going to be no retaliation from one of the world's military Powers actually they can okay let's also attach that narrative

that we just spoke about I think you told me outside which is that um whole thing about children which is a lot of the pro Palestine uh side of the argument on social media that 50% of The Debs are children uh what those same people who share those clips and of course I condemn a children's death as much as you condemn it as much as aim condemns it why should kids be a part of a political conflict uh just that you know it was mostly the uh uh the fertility rate of nine which is to say nine kids

per household was very deliberate planning in order to SW wamp uh what is today Israel including the occupied territories and create a Muslim majority and the uh the benefit of it the side benefit of it was having lots of underage human Shields okay again this is a very long conversation that we have to break down much more but to understand this further we'll Club it into part two of this conversation maybe to end part one all I'm going to ask you is where do we go from here um things aren't go

ing to change for the Palestinians in Gaza till you get rid of Hamas they crossed a line okay and this really comes down to a philosophical difference okay who is responsible the person who is using children as human Shields we have proof that when the Israelis have been uh you know dropping leaflets and sending smss and phone calls asking people to evacuate Hamas actually prevents them from evacuating and tells them not to evacuate and to stay back and say that uh Israeli evacuation orders are

a disinformation campaign you can actually see the smss you can actually live see the SMS lots of videos uploaded on social media uh that they're doing this and I guess this is for me it's not a philosophical question but for people who want to equivocate it becomes a pseudo philosophical question that I am here to demolish a house by Corporation orders you are deliberately keeping your children inside there in the hope that it will prevent me from demolishing and in case I do demolish and the c

hildren get killed you can sue me for murder and then negotiate with me to get my house UND demolished or not see with that the corporation does not resends its order or something like that I would hold the house owner responsible um if you related to the house owner obviously you'll hold the corporation responsible but the question is I understand where the Palestinians are coming from if you're not a Palestinian take a legal point of view on this who is putting the children in danger okay for

me it's a very straightforward argument uh there is unfortunately a tendency in our time to not accept responsibility for your own actions and externalize it everybody else is responsible for how screwed I am and I am blameless I a victim of society I'm sorry that doesn't work okay I am not voke I don't I detest vokes because the whole point of voker is to not grow up and externalize your own faults onto other people and that really is the Palestinian political mindset it's never really grown up

and it refuses to interest respect it refuses demonstrably failed tactics they refuse to change what do you do you learn about the history of Israel in the next episode yes that's all you can do I think there's a lot of pro Palestine people who are not familiar with the history of Israel it's a very key part of this whole argument please understand that anything you see on the news anything you see on social media uh there are multiple mple aspects to that argument this is not a pro- Israel sta

tement this is a statement from the perspective of trying to learn more which you me and I am will do in part two of this conversation am thank you uh thank you for explaining it the way you did but I think part two is where meet lies because whatever is happening today has happened because of whatever happened in the past absolutely um and you know it'll also determine the future um so I just hope which is something the Middle East never learns I think is let's learn from our own history you kn

ow and to learn from history you first need to have an accurate history all right we will see you in part two thank you so that was the episode for today please feel free to drop in any feedback on my Instagram DMS in the comment section on YouTube this is one of those topics where we have to bring someone who's Pro Palestine to actually debate with an opinion like the one that aim had part two will be about the history of this conflict the history of this region um both these parts were extreme

ly heavy for me to do that's why I hope I did Justice at least to a certain degree I'm very open to Bringing on anyone who is qualified and who's capable of speaking in favor of Palestine in this Israel Palestine War situation please share the episode as much as possible and stay tuned for part [Music] two