What Is Urgent? Taking the First Steps Toward Change

MICHAELA: Welcome to the closing session of the 2020 Child Welfare Virtual Expo. My name is Michaela Guthrie, and I am the director of a foster care and adoption program in Atlanta, Georgia. In addition to this role, I am a Young Adult Consultant with the Capacity Building Center for States. We have the opportunity to use my lived and professional experience in child welfare to improve services across the nation. Thank you so much for joining us. As a reminder, if you need assistance today, the

help desk is available, and please note that resources for today's session are available to download in the handouts window. Our session today is titled "What is Urgent? Taking the First Steps Towards Change." We will be joined by experts in the field and learn what great things are happening in the states of Virginia, Mississippi, Nebraska, Montana, and California. We will leave having learned of strategies for effective collaboration between child welfare agencies and community partners in the

provision of prevention services. First, we will hear from Jennifer Skala with Nebraska Children and Family Foundation. Jennifer, can you please describe for us the history of prevention services in Nebraska? JENNIFER: Yes, thank you Michaela. And before I go into our entire history in Nebraska and our partnerships, to get there and really focus on prevention, I just want to mention that it's wonderful to be part of a session that is about why is this so urgent right now. I feel like it's so ur

gent because we're actually in three pandemics, and at the heart of all of them is the need to reflect and be a social mirror of what isn't working in prevention and well-being in a community-based system. We're up against some of the toughest times with COVID, with our race and equity issues, and our ability to really look at the economic impact. And so with all of those impacts that are happening concurrently and our need to really be able to focus and do business differently, that is why the

history of our prevention system, but also what we're doing now, is incredibly important. So Nebraska Children and Families Foundation was founded right after the Family Preservation Act of 1996, when the governor put a commission together and said what are we going to do differently in our state amongst our partners to be able to utilize new dollars that come in to strengthen families. And the commission decided to create an organization such as ours that is both a public and a private entity t

hat can bring more resources, more partnerships, and really work with communities in order to strengthen families and look at well-being. From then, we were able to look and provide dollars to some strategies that were around home visitation, mediation. We had very little money at the time, about $500,000. Nebraska isn't a huge population and those dollars were based on your population, and so we were wanting to learn about what it would take for more buy-in on those programs. We wanted to learn

by reaching the 800 and some families that it did reach, how many were still going into the child welfare system? We found over 100 were at that time, and we also found that collaboration only existed on paper, even though there was a willingness of the agencies to say I have tried to be in shared ownership and in partnership with many others around this, but it wasn't everybody's business to prevent child abuse and neglect. And so we said let's pause and do a learning community where we had st

ate partners, our Department of Health and Human Services, our Department of Behavioral Health, our Department of Public Health, and all of the communities that we were working with to be able to say what can we do differently to really get everyone's buy-in and alignment and partnership in making sure that children are safe, healthy, and well in the communities. And we were able to learn so much, and there was actually six principles that were guiding us the whole time that the community shaped

and developed a toolkit around. And again, this is all about doing business differently. That's what I would say is so much urgent right now. So now with the way business is done, we're reaching over 20,000 families, and our current evaluation report that just came back showed that less than 10 went into the child welfare system. And that was guided even by the supports from the community. We were also finding that we have all partners at the table and that it is everyone's business, because it

's community owned and community prioritized. So I just thought I would mention the six principles that were developed by the communities and supported by all of the partners that were involved early on, and we're still learning from everything that was set forth over 12 years ago now. Young adult and parent engagement is number one. Authentic partnerships with parents and with young adults that have the lived experience, they are the experts, and without their voice and without understanding th

e way decisions are made without them and for them and not trying to put in additional supports and making sure that young adults and parents are in the driver's seat, this would not work. So, authentic partnership is number one across the board. Two is collaboration. Again, I mentioned that before it was partnerships on paper, but now by having everyone have a stake in what they are doing and why and the difference, the return on investment is, collective impact is the way to do business. Colle

ctive impact by making sure there's a backbone infrastructure in the communities that is funded and supported and can do the functions of a collaboration. Make sure data is used, make sure that there is an understanding that they wake up every day and make sure partners are pulled together and that people aren't wasting time by sharing voice and coming to consensus and doing decision-making differently. There are so many great things that was started way back in 1998 that now is in research arou

nd the collective impact work. So the collective impact and true partnerships, again, following that authentic partnership work and making sure that there's shared accountability is number two. Number three is the promotive and protective factor framework, and with promotive factors, you're really looking at the strengths and you're understanding then the risks and what is needed to build the protective factors. So we've been able to develop new training and curriculum and really focus on this a

s not only the data sources of building those promotive and protective factors, what everyone needs in order to avoid abuse and neglect, but also focus on well-being, but it's also become the core to training and the workforce. Number four is a two-generation approach. And in the two-generation approach, we look at the whole family. We realized a lot of our sectors that are working on behalf of children and trying to get to well-being and prevention of abuse and neglect oftentimes remove the chi

ld from their families and the families aren't receiving the same resources. And so we were able to really hone in on a young adult population that we work in partnership with that were becoming parents, that were in the foster care system, and really understand what they needed as parents and really start developing the two-generation approach in everything we do so that cycle of abuse and neglect can end. Number five is our race, ethnicity, equity, and inclusion work. Again, I mentioned the pa

ndemic now, but without the lens and without disaggregating data, without understanding the disproportionality that is occurring in hiring systems, we have to be able to look at the prevention system. What are the opportunity gaps, what are the access gaps, what are the hope gaps that are really in play here in order to change what we need to do in order to get to equitable outcomes? And number six is the primary prevention principles that start with it being community based and community owned.

And allowing each community to shape their priority plans and making sure that it's not top down and they have to jump through hoops in order to identify and change the way they do business because of a funding stream that may end in a few months or years. And we wanted to make sure that those principles are in place in order for children to thrive. So some of those principles are making sure that, again, what we've mentioned before around young adults and parents, that they're in the driver's

seat. That there's people that are working with and in partnership with young adults and parents and caregivers, but they're not - knowing better about what the parents and young adults need. The young adults and the parents are the experts and they know what they need, and they need friendly volunteer and authentic supports and services, as does everyone. MICHAELA: Awesome - thank you so much, Jennifer, for sharing those six principles with us. I believe that they're so very important, and I lo

ve how you mentioned authentic youth and family engagement and you said it several times. We know that children and families are the experts in their case, and so engaging them at all stages and meeting them where they are will help those of us working with families serve them better and also build a deeper sense of trust, a trust among the family, and the provider. Can you provide us with an example of what might be authentic engagement versus not? JENNIFER: Yeah, when I think of authentic rela

tionships and partnerships, there's not a power and control issue. There's an ability to understand that we're all in this together, and one of the models that I think show this the most is what we've put into place when we call it a parent café or a community café. Where it is, again, organized around promotive and protective factors, but it is a backseat for providers and the partners to make sure that they are just supporting what the leadership that comes out of the decisions and the convers

ations that occur amongst young adults and parents about what they need in their community and what more people can do to rally around that and make sure it's supported and achieved. But that it is the true leadership that comes from the young adults and parents. MICHAELA: Awesome. Yes, that's so right. And I also love how you touched on having a strength-based and empathetic approach to the services that we offer to our families. Because we know that everyone has a strength; for example, mom mi

ght have been employed at the same place for 2 years, and so us capitalizing on those characteristics of maybe commitment and work ethic then serving that family will help improve outcomes for them and maybe even create a sense of pride and I can do this mentality for the family. So, what are ways that you feel like agency workers could be more strength-based or empathetic towards the families that they work with? JENNIFER: I mentioned earlier that we've worked really hard for a number of years

to develop a young adult and families thrive curriculum and training that is all centered and focused on the promotive and protective factors, and I would say that it's not only a framework, it's not only a data collection that it needs to be focused on, because those are the buffers that prevent abuse and neglect, but it's also a really authentic way to get at the heart of the root issues of the opportunity gap and access gap and the hope gap. And by utilizing people's strengths, the hope right

there changes, and you can build on strengths. And everybody has them and it allows for people to be in the same arena doing things together and at the same tables and making sure that outcomes are achieved. MICHAELA: That's great. Okay, awesome. The last question, Jennifer. What would you like to tell everyone that you believe is urgent in this work? JENNIFER: I mentioned before the urgency, but I think what I'm thinking now about urgent in this work is that you really can have a chance right

now to reflect and do every part of your business differently. You know, it's all a partnership. There's an ability to have to put yourself and reflect on all kinds of things and let go of power and control and that sometimes is very scary. I think that's what we're seeing right now, that that's one of the scariest things for the world and for people is that loss of place and space. But once we understand that we're all better together and being able to do business differently, I think we can re

ally come to some amazing outcomes. We've been able to cut our child abuse and neglect rates in half since we started this model and partnership with DHHS and all those partners I mentioned before - the schools -- and really get the community strengths and the buy-in, that it's not just the nonprofit making sure that well-being is achieved, but that actual children are thriving and not just surviving. So I think the urgency right now is looking at whatever business you can do differently and cha

nging that model to be able to get at, not only the root issues, but the outcomes that we're all striving for. MICHAELA: Awesome. Well, I so appreciate you being with us, Jennifer. Thank you so much for sharing about all the great things going on in Nebraska. I will now introduce Kristin Zagar and Andy Crawford with the State of Virginia. Kristin is the director of the Division of Family Services and Andy is director of Bedford County Department of Social Services. Welcome, Kristin and Andrew. T

hank you so much for joining us. KRISTIN: Thank you. We're excited to be here to talk about Virginia's Department of Social Services prevention alignment approach. I would like to highlight that Virginia is a state-supervised, county-administered state with 120 local departments of social services. Because of that, it's very important that the state leadership and the local directors have a strong partnership in driving practice, outcomes, and alignments for systems change. In Virginia, we have

the Virginia League of Social Services Executives, which we call 'The League.' The League is made up of the local directors of social services. Today, Andy Crawford, the League president, and I will jointly discuss how Virginia collectively aligned our prevention activities. And Andy is going to talk a bit more about The League now. ANDREW: Thanks, Kristin. The Virginia League of Social Services is made up over 120 members from each locality in the state. Our goals, we have three main focuses. O

ne is to advocate, then to support each other, and then to collaborate with the state. So, we support each other in the localities to come up with ideas and support, but we also like to collaborate with state to make sure that we are advocating for the citizens that we are providing services for. MICHAELA: Great. And what was the urgency to align your prevention strategy? KRISTIN: So, our urgency to approach our comprehensive prevention alignment was actually accelerated by the Family First legi

slation. Our previous director, Carl Ayers [phonetic], used the National Governors Association three-branch approach to define and align a shared prevention vision in Virginia. This vision extended beyond the state and the local department. It was embraced by our youth and foster parents, courts, judges and our CIP. Legislatures on both sides of the aisle, our state partners at Mental Health, Medicaid, the Department of Education and the Health Department, as well as our stakeholders, advocates,

and service providers. Using the three-branch approach, it ensured that we had representation from all areas and allowed us to overcome our historically siloed and disjointed goals, thus supporting our ability to move forward in our prevention alignment together. Once we had overall agreement on what a comprehensive prevention process should look like in Virginia, we wanted to do more than just make agreements. We actively aligned our outcomes, our strategic planning, and our implementation eff

orts. We started by identifying our goals and our overall outcomes focused on prevention, well-being, safety, and permanency. We took into account federal and state initiatives and priorities such as the CSFP or the 5-year strategic plan, the CFSR and the PIP, and the Family First legislation, as I mentioned. Additionally, we identified our implementation strategies and change management approaches. By doing this, we developed a comprehensive Virginia strategic plan which serves as a roadmap of

going from where we are now to where we want to end up in 5 years and how we will get there while supporting our collective accountability to the outcomes for the children, youth, and families we serve. We felt that we could this best by aligning the folks who are actually doing the work so the folks in the localities at the front end of the services. And we aligned into workgroups, and they were able to lead the strategic planning development efforts together. These workgroups were made up of,

as I said, both state and local staff, stakeholders, and partners so that our statewide efforts could truly be proactive and preventative. We wanted to really move away from that more reactive prevention approach. At the heart of our strategic plan is the principle and practice of engagement. Meaningful engagement, with children, youth, and families, with providers, with our local departments, with advocates in the communities and partnering in a meaningful engaging way with our partner state ag

encies. An example of our alignment efforts were with the Department of Education at the state level. We came together to discuss policies, data collection and data sharing, and prevention strategies. These efforts support our locals' ability to implement collaborations at the local level. Andy is going to provide an example of what this looked like in his community. ANDREW: Yes. The Department of Social Services in Bedford County worked with our public school system who also had some federal fu

nding for engagement of families. So we decided that we would pool our funds together to allow us to expand our number of employees. So we actually increased my number of employees by two, and those employees worked for the Department of Social Services but were partially funded by the school system. We put those employees into the elementary schools in our locality to work with families at the front end. So what we find is that families who are not always engaged by the term of Child Protective

Services. However, when a family comes into the school and they need help applying for assistance or they need help finding therapy or supportive services for their child, a support worker who works in the Department of Social Services was a little bit more palatable to them. So what we found was having those employees put into the school system was a great way at very early stages of prevention to help us decrease those families' needs later. MICHAELA: Thank you, Kristin and Andy, for sharing

that. Can you also describe for us the urgency of collaborative efforts in bringing together community partners and 120 local agency partners? ANDREW: Yes, it is very urgent because the state and local partnership is often easier to do than it is at the local level to engage your providers and other shareholders. So it is very urgent that the process comes from the top all the way down to the very bottom to the people who provide the services to families that need. So it is very, very urgent tha

t not only did the state have the information from the federal government level but that that information was filtered down to the community where the services were needed. MICHAELA: That's great. Thank you so much, Kristin and Andy, for sharing what's going on in Virginia, the wonderful things happening there. TRENT: My name is Trent Favre and I'm the County Court Judge for Hancock County, Mississippi. I was appointed by Governor Phil Bryant in late 2017 to serve as Hancock County's first Count

y Court judge commencing on January 1, 2018. In addition to my civil court responsibilities, I preside over youth court matters, including abuse, neglect, and delinquency matters. When I took the bench in 2018, there were 389 children in custody. Today there are 72. This is due, in large part, to the collaborative culture we have built to serve children and families. I've been asked to talk to you about the urgency of collaboration as it relates to the prevention of unnecessary removals and the

provision of prevention services. Specifically, what is the role of the judge in ensuring systemic collaboration? So, what you may hear may sound like it applies to judges only. However, I think the underlying principles can be applied within each of your respective disciplines and in your systems. To understand my approach to collaboration, perhaps it would be good to give you some thoughts about my judicial philosophy, which is based on my beliefs that every human being is redeemable. As such,

children and parents alike need to be treated as human beings. Our courtroom is filled with paintings incorporating the word 'hope.' Hope is the cornerstone of our practices in our system. I also believe that parents have a right to their children and children have a right to their parents. The parents and children we serve are in a difficult situation when we encounter them, and many times they have little hope to believe their circumstances will change. Proceeding with compassion and empathy

gives families hope. Connecting with families on the most basic human levels gives families hope. When they have hope, they can achieve some pretty good things. Team building and collaboration has been something that has been pretty easy, I think because everyone in our system wanted to see different outcomes and they knew we had to change our practices. Recognizing that I was taking over a very broken system, I knew very early on I needed to draw the various agencies to the table to work togeth

er to improve outcomes for children and families. Collaboration is only possible with relationships. One of my main responsibilities is to make sure that the relationships of all of the stakeholders are in balance. Each of the stakeholders has a relationship with the court, and the stakeholders have relationships with each other. I have to be in tune with those relationships of the stakeholders in our system, looking for conflicts or imbalances, and also celebrating our accomplishments and hallm

arking growth. This means stepping out of the traditional role of the judge to manage relationships and to set expectations with regard to policy and philosophy. An important key to our growth as a system is the following: we all need a safe place to work and do our work, a safe zone for admitting mistakes. Good people make mistakes; great leaders allow them to. In my first staff meeting with my employees, I assured them that I would make mistakes, but I would appreciate it if they would point t

hem out so I could address and eliminate them as quickly as possible. I committed to them to help them with their own mistakes. Once that pressure is off and we are all dealing with each other with a bit of grace, a lot of good work can be done. Taking the time to sit down with your employees to correct an error is both a learning experience and a relationship builder. The same holds true for all the stakeholders in your system. Initially, I knew I needed to build relationships with both CPS and

CASA. There were close to 80 cases with either procedural issues or other problems, so we immediately began to collaborate to bird-dog those cases. Initially, I met monthly with the CPS and CASA supervisors, and I continue to do this to this day to both manage relationships and to address processes. These are separate meetings, but sometimes we all come together to problem-solve, address inefficiencies or to just talk toward improvement. I think it is an important to have an open venue for the

agencies to communicate about processes. We are all in this together, so I believe it is equally important to listen to the stakeholders as it is to set expectations. From these meetings, we have been able to get on the same page on a variety of issues. The smaller meetings have also allowed for the development of relationships. Communication is key. More opportunities to communicate outside of court have given me a better understanding of the many individuals who make up the various agencies in

volved with this court. Monthly, I meet with a group called Partners at the Table, or PAT. This group is comprised of CPS, the child welfare agency; CASA; Brenda's House, which is our family visitation center; Hancock Resource Center, which houses the Parent Navigator program; Hope Haven, our child advocacy center; and our mental healthcare providers, just to name a few. We meet around the lunch table for the purpose of relationship building. Each partner is able to give a brief update about the

ir agency to discuss opportunities or needs or to problem solve. Inevitably, this opportunity for connectivity often yields immediate results on roundtable issues. Training has also been key. We have engaged in many training opportunities, which has allowed us all to work from the same playbook. From systemwide training, I observed both individual and agency intellectual growth, as well as interpersonal and interagency relationship growth. Initially, I learned that agency was training its own em

ployees on the trauma of removal. I thought to myself, if they are learning about it, I need to understand it too. I asked CPS if we could participate in the training. We then participated in a seven series practice model learning cycle. Again, this is but one example of learning to work from the same playbook. Because of this training's influence on the system's understanding of the trauma of removal and the need for parental engagement, this practice model learning cycle is now taught througho

ut other jurisdictions in our state. We also conducted a multidisciplinary training with an outside expert to learn about safety and risk assessment. Again, learning as a system what needs to be done to prevent unnecessary removals and how to mitigate risk factors to maintain children safely in the home. We also circled back around to conduct another 2-day training on TBRI, which is Trust Based Relational Intervention, bringing in a judge and medical professional from the State of Texas to teach

us about trauma of the brain. But not just the trauma of removal that happens to the child and the parent during a removal, but also the trauma that many of these parents have previously experienced in their lives and the effect it has on their brain and their ability to think. We learned about the science of addiction. We studied the book The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. van der Kolk. From this training, we developed a better understanding of how to work with parents. With this knowledge, we be

came better informed on how to handle our children and parents with care. We need to proceed with a sense of urgency to develop a collaborative system that authentically engages with children and families with understanding, compassion, and empathy, which will hopefully lead to effective prevention, as well as restoration family relationships. And speaking with families with authenticity, we will now shift our attention to Michael Huesca. Michael? MICHAEL: Today's conversation have been on trans

forming the system we know into a focused system on prevention, strengthening families, and providing families authentic support. When we explore how meaningful and authentic engagement with staff, children, youth, and families at all levels of the agency, we can see the impacts and the difference that collaborations and partnerships can provide the families the much needed support in an authentic way. Today I'm joined by Michaela Guthrie. She is a Young Adult Consultant with the Capacity Buildi

ng Center for States, as well as Marilyn Bruguier Zimmerman from the National Native Children's Trauma Center at the University of Montana. Thank you both for joining me. As we've been talking today about what is urgent, I'm really anxious to hear your perspectives, and I'd like to start with you, Michaela, as an individual who has your own personal experience and a youth consultant for the Center. What do you believe, from your perspective, is urgent? MICHAELA: Thank you, Michael. That is a gre

at question. You know, in our work we're moving children from their families, from everything they've ever known and oftentimes unnecessarily. And doing so creates not only separation for that family, but undue trauma and undue grief for the children and families that we serve. And it's urgent for us to prevent that. We care about these families, we care about these children. And it's also important for us to remember that the majority of our children want to be with their families. So I feel li

ke it's important for us to do our work to keep them there. MICHAEL: Thank you. So, Marilyn, from your perspective, what is urgent for our tribal folks? MARILYN: I want to focus on what I believe is probably the most urgent consideration for tribes even today in 2020. As many of you may know, the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed in the 1970s, and it was passed because there were an inordinate amount of children being removed from their tribal families and communities to be fostered or adopted

off tribal lands, outside of tribal jurisdictions. And ICWA was necessary to be able to bring our children home, to sustain the life - to sustain our tribes so that we would continue to exist as a people. We also have to understand that before ICWA and even now today, that removal was not just for boarding school experiences that I talked about earlier, but child welfare was seen as a tool of assimilation and acculturation for tribal children. And so really, for states and tribes to have a good

working relationship around the Indian Child Welfare Act - I'll give an example. In Montana, 3.5 percent of the children are Native in this entire state, of the state population. However, they make up over 30 percent of the children in foster care, through state, tribal, and Indian Care Social Services programming. So we really want states to know that the largest part of our population does not live necessarily on a reservation, that we're very often in urban settings, and that every single tr

ibe has an Indian Child Welfare Office that they can relate to in order to make sure that that child is either enrolled or eligible for enrollment in order to be able to give full faith and credit to the tribal courts so that they have the right as these are their citizens. They have the right to have a voice in where these children are placed if removal becomes necessary. It's critical to our existence as a people, and it's critical to the cultural, spiritual, and physical well-being of our chi

ldren. MICHAEL: Yeah. Marilyn, thank you for saying that. Because you know, I have heard for a long time that ICWA is the gold standard. And you know, it would be incredible because as Michaela described, you know, children want to be with families, and if we could elevate that standard to every child, it would be an amazing thing. So, you know, I think one of the keys for me as far as what is urgent, is this idea of breaking the pattern of silo and really going outside of the agency and joining

forces with community partners and bringing community partners to the table. You know, I really want us to walk our talk, and I want us to have an opportunity where the agencies no longer are just inviting folks to the table but they're asking folks to help set the table. So, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the importance of the collaborations, the cross-collaborations within the department and with other jurisdictions such as our courts? Michaela, your thoughts? MICHAELA: Yeah, t

hat's a great question, Michael. You know, I think about my personal experience in the foster care system and I was in care for about 9 years in total. And just reflecting back on that, I think about how I didn't know who my GAL was. I saw them when I went to court every 6 months or a year, and we met in a little conference room where we, you know, just talked for a few minutes before the court session actually took place. But I think - and that's just not my experience - you know, it's not just

my experience. And I think for us to serve our children and families well and authentically engaging with them on all of those different levels will be important to make sure that our families and our children's needs are being met, they're being assessed appropriately, and help us to achieve permanency a lot quicker. MICHAEL: Thank you for that. And Marilyn, for you? MARILYN: I want - I guess what I want is to reiterate what I said earlier about the Indian Child Welfare Act and really encourag

e state child welfare agencies to really grasp tribal sovereignty and honor tribal sovereignty by really making sure that they're following the Indian Child Welfare Act as it was meant to be followed. And allowing those tribal courts full faith and credit to be able to make those kinds of decisions on behalf of the tribal children. I still think there's a bit of a residue that somehow child welfare systems, whether they're tribal agencies or federal systems or court systems, aren't quite as soph

isticated as state courts, and it's not true. That the best interests of the children is always at the forefront of what the judges and the tribal courts have in mind, and they're not thinking just literally physically, but they are again as I said earlier they're thinking about their cultural and spiritual well-being on into adulthood. And that is to make sure that they at some level stay connected to their tribal families and their tribal communities and their tribal culture. MICHAEL: Yeah, I

really hear you with that. And you know, as a birth father, with a limited exposure to the agency and to child welfare, it was my experience that if all sectors were communicating a little bit better, I would have felt supported. You know, best interests of the child. As a parent I did have my child, his best interests was the highest level for me, right? But I really don't feel like we were given the opportunity or I was given the chance. There was a lot of separation and segregation and siloin

g, that it wasn't working in unity. And what we're talking about here right now is really transforming this into a well-being system where we're all on the same page. And so I absolutely think that having these cross-conversations and everybody on the same page is critical for the transformation that we're talking about. So that brings me to the next question, which is, where do we start with all of this? I mean this is a monster of a system that's been working for a long time and has done what

the system has been designed to do. So from your perspective, Michaela, where do we go? Where do we start from here? MICHAELA: Yeah, that's a great and big question, Michael. I think just remembering that our youth and families that we serve are the experts in their case and so meeting them where they are. And we talked a lot about authentic engagement. Authentically engaging with them at all levels of their case will be helpful to be sure that proper services are put in place to help a family s

tay together. And in my personal experience in foster care, I was in two separate times in placement of foster care. And I reflect back on that and think if my state agency had fully engaged with my family and assessed those needs properly and those needs had been met, I wouldn't have been removed that second time and aged out of the system. So, I think about just meeting them where they are and again authentically engaging with them, and remembering that they're the experts on their case and ju

st remembering that value that we want families to stay together. MICHAEL: Awesome, thank you. Thank you. Marilyn? MARILYN: So, yeah. I think that one of the places to start is to remind ourselves that meaningfully engaging tribal communities isn't just about the state agency's issue. Right? They're not the only ones that need to build that trust with the families. Tribal agencies are often still seen as agencies of removing babies from their moms, right? Even though they are tribal members. And

BIA, social services, the same thing. So really meaningful engaging communities just really means honoring ICWA. But also, if you are a state person that lives near a reservation that, you know, really trying to engage in some authentic relationships with the child welfare workers but also with community spiritual and cultural leaders, with tribal leadership. And being - this is what I often say - being able to take the brunt of or acknowledge the history of your agency or your system, even tho

ugh you are well-intentioned and don't behave in those unhelpful ways for families. Right? You're there, you're strengths-based, you're meeting them where they're at. You know that they've got - they can stay together and they can be an intact family with some prevention and intervention strategies. But that, you know, you're well-intentioned, you know what you're doing, but when you meet with tribal leadership you have to acknowledge the history of child welfare, right, even if you are a tribal

member. So, I think meaningfully engaging at all levels, at a personal level, at a professional level and then again, opening yourself up to a cultural level of engagement with tribes. MICHAEL: That's awesome, Marilyn. And I couldn't agree with you more. You know, the conversation really has struck a chord with me. Because you know, at the end of the day, again as a birth father who had interaction with child welfare, it would have been amazing if I felt more like it was all of us looking after

the best interests of my child instead of feeling like it was them against me. And so I think that the place to start, as both of you have shared, is really on being conscious of what the system has done and how we want to grow in a direction of well-being. I think that that's really got to be at the forefront of all of our minds as we move forward. I really want to thank both Michaela and Marilyn for sharing your personal stories and really helping elevate the importance of this transformation

, as it will continue to affect us and our children and our children's children as we move forward. Each one of us play a very important part in how this system is going to transform and creating the well-being system that we really want to see, to help strengthen families, and the well-being for families. So, with that, thank you all for joining us, and stay put while our next facilitators will join us, and we'll roll up our sleeves and put in strategies we need to explore about today's convers

ations and the actions we should be taking.