Will Hannah Gutierrez Testify? Day 9 Recap, Baldwin Movie Shooting Trial

on October 21st 2021 a western movie entitled rust was being filmed in Bonanza Creek New Mexico it was a lowbudget independent film but the star of the movie was an a-lister Alec Baldwin Baldwin was not only starring in the film he was also an executive producer the person in charge of the firearms on the set was armorer Hannah Gutierrez Hannah was only 24 years old and this was only the second film she had been hired as the armor one other crew member who had access to the weapons and the ammun

ition on the set was the prop Master Sarah zakri on October 21st Alec Baldwin was rehearsing a scene with a crossdraw and while rehearsing the gun went off the bullet struck cinematographer Helena Hutchin and director Joel Souza Joel survived but Helena did not and now the question is how did a 24-year-old armorer get put in charge of the gun RS on the set of a western movie starring a-lister Alec Baldwin and what role did alleged drug use play and what happened to Helena tonight we take a look

at the relationships of the decision makers and take a closer look at Hannah Gutierrez as we investigate the Baldwin movie shooting I'm Vin poan thank you so much for joining us tonight another big day inside the courtroom and as we watch the trial um you have to understand what we're watching right now in New Mexico is trial number one this is the trial of Hannah gutiz so it's all about what she did what she didn't do her actions her lack of actions safety protocols was her be Behavior Reckless

criminally Reckless Behavior on the set of the movie and that's what's at stake here for Hannah Gutierrez this this is her trial trial number one there's going to be trial number two that's going to be for Alec Baldwin and I and I think in that trial there's going to be a much different Focus it'll be on what happened once the gun was handed to him and what about him as executive producer of the of the show of the movie what what role and how did that impact what was done day in and day out on

that set in terms of cutting Corners saving money Etc so trial two coming this summer for Alec Baldwin trial one happening right now two completely different defendants one is a 24y old armor on her second movie The Other someone who's been in Hollywood for a long long time now when we go on the set of this of this film rust what we're understanding and learning is really the complexity of the relationships of of everyone on this set and who was working for who who reported to who who was really

in charge and and I think for the jury as they watch this trial that's something that they want to understand because I know as I'm watching it that's that's what I'm trying to figure out I'm not a movie actor I've never been in a movie but learning how things were done here first is surprising to me but number two it's it's trying to figure out cuz if if you're trying to hold someone responsible this isn't the classic Court TV case where someone comes up with a plot to commit a crime a murder

a robbery whatever it is and then they execute it no this is like people not doing their jobs but who's in charge who's responsible how did it really happen and and to me it's not crystal clear but a lot of it has to do with the relationship that everyone has and and the power that they wield on that set to do things because nobody's own up to introducing that live round in the set nobody is and and you would think that on a movie Set It would be easy to figure out who brought in the live ammo b

ut it's not it's not simple here not at all not an easy case for this jury by the way not an easy case for them most most of the time when you have a case where you're not talking about like I intended to do this you know we plotted to to kill soand so like then the jury can say okay they did or they didn't but here we know what people did the question is what is it is it is it is it is it a crime what happened here it's a tragedy there's absolutely civil liability but is it a crime is the quest

ion now for Hannah Gutierrez uh the question tonight for me is you know will she tell her story we've seen police interviews the jury has seen police interviews where she's telling her story but will she get up on the witness stand live in front of those folks in the box and and tell them what happened what she was doing why she was doing it and where that live round came from I you you know in a case like this it's it's difficult right she's 24 years old but I think the jury would better unders

tand who she is if she actually testified live in front of them um because they've seen the police interviews I don't think those are great for her but I think she can help herself but she'll have to face some difficult cross-examination and we're going to talk about that in the show tonight we're going to talk about the relationships that everyone had but it was a big day today another big day in the courtroom here's some of the biggest moments in our conclusions uh we determined that the manag

ement team was responsible for a series of failures that uh in our opinion accumulated in an accident we mean the chain of command um above Hannah Gutierrez um beginning um at the lowest level with Sarah Zachary and then Gabriel pickle and then um Dave h what were your conclusions with respect to whether Miss gettes was provided enough time to inventory and inspect the dummy rounds from her employer we came to the conclusion that she was not afforded time to conduct her duties to the best of her

diligence Rush movie productions um identified a a hazard a workplace Hazard working with firearms and they adopted a firearm safety policies but they totally failed to enforce them train their employees on them practice them reference them nothing they they adopted it and it stopped at the word adoption nothing further happened do you have any conclusions um about the quality of the investigation by the sheriff's at the scene their response was probably not what it should be there were yes the

re were hundreds of people on that ranch but if if you narrow it down to who was in the church at the time of the shooting and who may have had involvement with the case for example the people that just outside uh there was really about 20 people Lieutenant benitz um took possession of the firearm with ungloved hand and he grabbed it right around the cylinder so the largest portion of the revolver is how he picked up the revolver put it into his vehicle at another occasion pulled it out of his v

ehicle and put it back on the in the cart he did the same thing with the ammo boxes from the uh cart so you definitely can't preserve evidence by touching things with your bare hands one aspect of it that's still kind of a mystery to me is when the lieutenant arrived on the scene first two things he asked for was the gun and the armor um thought that was a little unusual he didn't seem to be the least conern concerned of who the shooter was and what that individual status was um he placed M ceta

s into his marked unit which is pretty common also considering that you know she had some anxiety issues and so on uh but it immediately became clear she was not free to leave every other individual on that ranch was free to walk around talk to anyone talk on their phone do anything they wanted to do um except mras there's no controversy the the gun that was used in the shooting is the gun that was in Mr Baldwin's hand right true okay um and the reason that the projectile can't be matched to the

firearm is because the projectile went through uh two people and it was so heavily uh uh damaged because it went through two human beings uh there wasn't enough marking to match it to the bore of the gun isn't that true that's [Music] true let's bring in court TV legal correspondent Kelly craf who is live in Santa Fe New Mexico outside the courthouse of course inside the courtroom today great to see you Kelly uh another big day as this case uh starts to wrap up a little bit the defense calling

a firearm expert to the stand today he sure yes and Vinnie I just wanted to tell you the prosecution just walked out of the courtroom just minutes ago so you said big day quite a day they said to me as they were just leaving defense Council of course put on its case today and as you just mentioned that Firearms expert on the stand and boy did this lead to some some iffy moments inside the courtroom to say the least with some people in the gallery ducking at one point this is when Frank cusy he w

as on the stand and he was talking about firearm safety and he said one of the first things in firearm safety is you never put your finger on the trigger let's listen to some of his direct examination and here is a GX revolver so your honor I'm going to object all right first of all everybody's nervous because you have not demonstrated to us that they are unloaded so before you start showing us the weapons make sure they're unloaded including that one that you just touched so the Firearms expert

was demonstrating how to [ __ ] and uncock the gun and when he brought out the gun this is when some people in the gallery especially the row of people sitting in front of me began to duck as if he's pointing the gun at them and then as you can see in some of the video that it appears that he ends up pointing the gun at the judge of course special prosecutor Carrie morresy doesn't miss a beat in this case and she got up there and asked him about this on her cross examination let's listen do you

agree with me that basic gun safety requires that the Handler of the gun not point the gun at anyone if it's a real gun yes do you agree with me that while you were sitting here in the courtroom uh you pulled out a gun and you pointed it at the judge I do not you disagree I pointed the gun into this space up here never directly at the judge so Vinnie this witness was really interesting to listen to because his background and he talked about all of his experience with guns his experience on movi

e sets and it was impressive to listen to but then of course when he started pulling the guns out things got a little bit wacky inside the courtroom as you just watched wow are you kidding me we got a Firearms expert talking about safety and the barrels being pointed in all these directions towards people I just saw it myself there it goes towards the judge then he puts it on the table it's go going towards uh the attorneys in the gallery thank goodness there's an officer there next to him like

I I wow I've seen a lot of guns in nervous reaction yeah yeah a little situational awareness holy mackerel I I I I I don't know what the jury does with that what do the jury do with that like this is in in Insanity inside the courtroom I I don't think it went as defense councel had planned no no I I I'm you know as this is I'm trying to spin in my head how can either side spin this in their way both sides will figure out a way to try to use it uh because you can't ignore that moment you can't ig

nore that moment like I can see the defense saying ladies and gentlemen do you remember when the expert that we called up and the barrel was pointing and people were ducking well that's why you don't point a gun at people that's what Alec Baldwin did not Hannah so I could see them wow okay now let's get to some of the other things that happened today Hannah Gutierrez her her father showed up today yes he did and I got a chance to talk with him Vinnie because he's on the witness list for defense

so now if Jason Bulls is going to call him we're not certain we did ask Jason bulls that tonight so still not clear if he is going to call him yet uh but he was there standing outside the courtroom sitting there and he's a very distinguished older gentleman and he kind of had a little Entourage around him but he is expected to testify at least on the witness stand or he's on the witness list let me clarify that but again if Jason's going to call him we'll have to wait and see what what happens t

omorrow also I heard you talk about Hannah Gutierrez the defendant of course in this case will we hear from her we also asked Jason bulls that as well tonight I have asked Hannah Gutierrez that myself and she has told me we will see and Jason Bulls says we will see tomorrow that's a big decision you know it's the probably the last decision you have to make as a as a um defendant and the defense team as well it's a big one but Hannah's father in the middle of all of this as well I I mean that's w

hy she's in the business that's why she's in the business yes so um that's huge now um we're at the point of the case right the state rests and when that happens the defense is trying to get a directed verdict um to me it's rarely granted but to me I always listen to them closely because they seem to give you a a preview of what you may hear during the closing arguments in the case so what what did you uh notice today one of the main things that was argued by defense Council Vinnie is that the s

tate has not proven that Hannah Gutierrez brought live ammunition to the set of rust and we have talked about this it is unclear how that live ammunition actually got on set so that was one of the main points that they made also what they said is that if someone shoots a gun in their backyard no one is really looking at the person who loaded that gun if somebody else loaded that gun they're looking at the person who pulled the trigger in this case Alec Baldwin of course he has said that he did n

ot pull the trigger but that was one of the arguments that defense Council attempted to make that Hannah was not the one that pulled the trigger in this case Alec Baldwin was but uh the state got up there had a very long argument saying that this directed verdict should be denied saying that Hannah Gutierrez failed to follow safety protocols that she is the one that brought the live ammunition on set and said that photographs prove that that's what they're saying that some photographs that were

taken before Seth Kenny's ammunition gone on set show that she is the one that is responsible for for bringing that live ammunition onset the judge said of course as you know Vinnie you look at directed verdicts in the light most favorable to the state and the judge denied defense council's directed verdict motion so let let's think about this for a moment because those defense arguments are very important in this case because I think everyone's agreed things didn't go the way they're supposed t

o go right it's obvious that they didn't go but do you do you have to prove that she brought the live ammo is is the jury going to be needed to be convinced of that and what what element does additional negligence play in all all of this right if we're talking about a civil case like you talk about all right they're partly responsible they're partly responsible but in a criminal context this is rare that we have a situation where we have different people contributing to the negligence and reckle

ssness on a movie set so if they did if if someone else didn't act negligently the result wouldn't have happened does that absolve her of criminal liability right if Alec Balwin doesn't put his finger on the trigger then you know she didn't do anything wrong arguably Vinnie there's no qu and Vinnie there's no question that the jurors do appear perplexed as to who brought that live ammunition on set as we all seem to be they've taken a lot of notes during all of that testimony but there's also be

en all of the state States evidence talking about that she was negligent and they brought crew members forth and they said that Hannah Gutierrez did not handle her role like normal armor or wood from sets that they had been on in the past but we did hear from the ocean ocean investigators today the New Mexico ocean investigators and they were saying again how it wasn't really Hannah Gutierrez it was all of the people above Hannah Gutierrez the production of rust and how they were fined they were

violating safety protocols so it's going to be interesting to see how much of a factor that plays in the juror's minds in regard to who brought the live ammunition on set but you know it's just involuntary manslaughter here defense council did get a bit of a win he said he wanted to mitigate some risks here because its negligent use of a firearm is also going to be included in the jury instructions Vinnie all right um Yeah tomorrow's a big day a big big day Kelly CRA in the middle of it thank y

ou so much we'll speak again tomorrow all right um we're going to get into these relationships on the set of rust who was in charge of who who was working for who and how does that impact the way people testified about that big issue of where did the live ammo come from we're going to talk about that plus coming up next hour in CMI Florida the tragic murder of 13-year-old meline SoDo she vanished when her mother's boyfriend allegedly took her to school her body was found Days Later miles away he

r mother and the boyfriend both gave interviews we heard what they said but what did their body language say at 8:19 we have evidence that shows Stephan Sterns returning to the complex and meline was visible in that vehicle we believe she was already dead at that [Music] time I'm the armor or at least I was a famous actor in a movie set accident that ended in tragedy I TR come the gun the gun goes off now Alec Baldwin and the film's armorer have both been charged with involuntary manslaughter ju

st because it's an accident doesn't mean that it's not Criminal Court TV takes you inside the court room as Hannah gutiz faces a jerk the Baldwin movie shooting trial live coverage weekday mornings only on court [Music] TV yeah no there's no there's no real interviews like anytime in film films a very weird weird industry Word of Mouth Word of Mouth by all means I think it's so weird how like secretive it is almost you know like it's really hard to get on anything unless you know somebody you've

got to know somebody to get the job in the industry right once it's like that in most Industries uh it really is in the law other place to get you know particular jobs that you want it helps and that industry I think you really need to know somebody but let's look at these connections on the set of rust because I think it's really fascinating to look at because of the way it could impact um you know the way people testified and some of the facts found uh by this jury about how that live round e

nded up in Alec Baldwin's gun let's begin with ph Reed and Hannah Gutierrez phel Reed legendary armorer and father of Hannah Gutierrez uh and he trained his daughter in the art of movie Armory then you've got um phel Reed's connection to Seth Kenny okay phel Reed is a colleague of propano supplier Seth Kenny both working in the industry the two met on the set of the movie Jango and chain remember that movie legendary movie uh they became friends so these two are friendly with each other and uh K

enny convinced the uh the prop Master for the series 1883 to hire th as a gun coach for the actors so Seth is getting thella a job to train the actors on the set of 1883 with live ammo and we heard all about that testimony from Seth Kenny with the live ammo that he was providing uh to that show 1883 then let's look at the relationship of Seth Kenny and Hannah Gutierrez Seth Kenny and his company supplied ammunition for the movie the old way starring Nicholas Cage Hannah Gutierrez was hired as th

e armorer for that movie so again is that Seth doing a favor for th you know what you know what what's going on here right there's there's this connection in her first movie then another important connection very important in this trial Seth Kenny and Sarah Zachary Sarah Zachary is an employee of Seth Kenny's company PDQ props and she is the prop Master for the movie rust so she's not working for the movie rust she's working for Seth Kenny who's company is doing work for the movie rust um and at

Seth Kenny's Direction Sarah Zachary hires Hannah Gutierrez as the armorer and prop assistant for rust wow and then you've got Hannah Gutierrez and Sarah Zachary and Dave Halls Hannah and Sarah both work on the set of rust with Dave Halls Hannah and and Sarah are outranked on the set of rust by first assistant director and safety manager Dave Halls who has already pleaded guilty for his role in this fatal shooting so you see these connections um let's bring in our guests joining us in Baton Rou

ge Louisiana actor assistant director and producer Thomas Johnson who has three movies coming out this year called they whisper Verdian and half lives in New York City film director Stephano Def and in Los Angeles California entertainment reporter and host of Kinsey's La Diaries on talk TV Kinsey Scofield is back with us all right um Kinsey I'm goingon to start with you let's talk about um these two I don't know I don't know if they're Legends or not but I mean they've been in the business a lon

g time pH Reed and and and Seth Kenny these two guys I've got to think are involved in a lot of Productions uh in Hollywood when people are using guns I mean Legends is a good way to describe both of them 81-year-old pH Reed is a famed armorer and movie consultant with over 70 years in the entertainment industry he secured his first onset position in 1955 on the set of gunm smoke since then he's worked on Hollywood Blockbusters like Tombstone LA Confidential Mr and Mrs Smith Once Upon a Time in

Hollywood I mean celebrities like Sharon Stone Brad Pit Russell Crow they not only know his name but they might even know his phone number he's a colorful character in the best possible way gloating about all types of achievements on his sets like holding the United States Quick Draw record or surviving a bear attack according to IMDb Reed also worked as a bodyguard for evil coneval but was dubbed uh you know the gun coach to the Stars after coaching the likes of Steve McQueen when it comes to S

eth Kenny uh he lives in Lake havu City where his company PDQ Armen prop holds two licenses for dealing in Firearms issued by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms and explosives um you know he he's a legend as well he worked for five years at one of LA's largest prop house is hand Prop Room where he worked with like AMC's The Walking Dead and as we heard through testimony today you know working on 1883 so obviously um a respected individual so how does this work in the business um Thomas let m

e ask you you know getting the job I'm trying to understand how this 24-year-old young woman gets the job of being in charge of the guns on a western starring Alec Baldwin is it all about these connection who knows who I'll get you this you do this I do that for you yeah I mean there's there's definitely never a ad in the newspaper where you can apply to work on a movie set so it's it's a lot of you know who you know obviously because they've been trained by somebody they know somebody theyve we

re raised in the business um you know it's it's not it's it's a job by job thing for sure however um having someone be in their second movie as armor on a western where movies are never seen it's a bit ludicrous just even even hearing that and and you know look when you hire somebody in her position who's got no experience uh it's kind of like uh you know you hire a production assistant and say hey make sure nobody walks through this way and then a star or a producer walks comes to walk through

like they don't feel like they have the authority to say like hey you can't do that because of you know the the the they're scared you know and I feel like that may have happened a lot with her um and she may have known but scared to say something um so I think some of that probably was happening with her and it was just not that's not smart to especially with guns I mean that's that's even if they're f w it's all about guns right like so Stephano I want to put this up on the screen because as a

s Thomas said this was her second movie right so her first movie this is a report from TMZ the armorer on Rust got an earful from one Nicholas Cage when she was working on his movie earlier this year and it doesn't sound like he was confident in her abilities either the veteran actor reportedly got mad and yelled at Hannah over the summer while shooting his newest flick the old way down in Montana this after she apparently fired off weapons around the crew without warning not once but twice Shar

on Waxman reports after the second time in three days of Gutierrez testing a weapon near everyone else unexpectedly cage yelled make an announcement you just blew my beep eard drums out then stormed off so um your thoughts uh Stephano about the ex level of experience and coming off of the old way as now in charge of a of a western I mean it's completely completely egregious you can tell uh a few things first of all you can tell also the the uh supplier who was upset with Hannah when the discharg

e went off on October 16th was upset at her reaction of being very emotional and being unprofessional you know that this bodess badly for her on her defense you know that this is establishing her as someone who is not competent doesn't know what she's doing and is not able to handle this job I also want to touch on a little bit of what Thomas said agreeing 100% with him which is that when you're a parent teaching your child sometimes you you slip through the cracks and you're a little bit looser

on them and it looks to be the case that she was not only not properly trained but got this job through nepotism and you know to the to the detriment of the entire crew yeah and to me that was evident by some of the testimony where she didn't know like you've got to gather up the dummy rounds you don't just discard yeah we lost a bunch of them we need we need a bunch more it's like and she's texting someone should have told me this before so I I agree with you there let's take a listen a little

bit of testimony from uh Sarah Zachary um and this again this is after the shooting of Helena Hutchin after a fatal shooting on the set this is what she did in reality uh what you did is you threw away rounds from two revolvers is that correct correct and that was right uh that was after the shooting correct yes now after the shooting do you recall how many minutes uh went by just roughly before you threw away those rounds I don't recall in that time frame you also had a conversation with Seth

Kenny correct yes and on that conversation you had texted him previously before that and said emergency after the incident yes okay so the reaction is get rid of some evidence and and call the man who supplied the ammo Thomas this is this is insanity right I mean it's it's it's a fatal shooting talking about and two people were shot and sorry I'm laughing but you know everybody on set a little bit at fault because the first time that you hear a live rounds on set it it it should have been taken

care of right then Hey listen let's go through everyone they should never be there or around if they knew that should have anybody from top to bottom that that shouldn't have happened but you know throwing it away I feel like it's the Spider-Man meme when they're all kind of pointing at each other um you know and everybody's at fault a little bit in this which is unfortunate you know um it's hard to hear yeah Stephano what did you think about the the arrangement of of who was reporting to who so

you had a a prop Master not employed by the film but works for the works for the separate company that's been hired I guess by the film and they sort of handpicked Hannah and Hannah is working under one of them it's to me it's an unusual Arrangement but I don't know if that's unusual for a film it's a completely unusual a completely unusual Arrangement you're completely right Vinnie I mean the armor should supersede the props Master because the props Master is not specifically required to know

100% about guns and the ammunition that you would be working with uh so you know she's Hannah's job is supposed to be the the highest role of the person who deals with the safety and knowing checking the supplies from Seth Kenny checking all that material and also making sure that uh you know you you're you're you're basically the the head person on that on that uh job you can easily see that people are kind of carrying her right you can hear in the testimony that people are sort of carrying her

along and basically making up for some of the um lack of leadership let's say uh in her in her in her job role absolutely I think you had the nail on the head with that great job everyone we're out of time for tonight by Thomas Johnston Stephano defay keny scoffield thank you all so much for your Insight we appreciate it when we come back let's talk about Hannah Gutierrez tomorrow big decision should she testify if she does what would that cross-examination be like that's [Music] next have a ni

ce day you too take it easy so it's Hannah Gutierrez leaving the courthouse saying have a nice day um I mean see this trial is different right we're not talking about people who are evil we cover a lot of trials with evil people right murderers killers serial killers child killers that's not this case that's not who she is that's not who Alec baldon is no no one associ going on trial here is evil because it's not that kind of a case but what's it going to be like if she testifies should she test

ify let's bring our special guest joining us from Los Angeles California criminal trial attorney Sarah aari you can check her out in a new podcast the presumption it's on all podcast platforms and there she is with a very handsome Jim Griffin so I guess Sarah are you moving down to the Low Country now so you be closer to Jim oh hell no no we do virtual Good To Be With You counselor oh good to see you okay I want to show you some images of Hannah Gutierrez because it's been quite a transformation

uh in what we've seen just in her physical appearance so we begin here she is in her police interview this is the first interview right after the shooting coming off of the set um this is how she looked during the the filming of the movie um then she comes in for a second police interview with her attorney and it's different right she's not she's not like out in the middle of the desert loading guns it's more more professional but then when she showed up in court almost didn't recognize her lik

e a an an incredible um makeover she I think she looks great um your thoughts about the jury seeeing this transformation because they've seen the videos and they've seen her in court is it is it a plus is it a minus for her or does it mean nothing I mean look it's I think it's a wash in this case I mean we do this with our clients because it's the best way that we can distance the defendant from the crime whether it was evil or not it doesn't matter I think the idea is that that this person coul

d have never been negligent this person could have never been evil whatever the case might be but the problem here Vinnie is that you know the for you know nearly three years um Her Image and the image of Alec Baldwin the everybody on the rust set has been ingrained on people's you know on this jury's uh brain and and also they're seeing her on the footage with the sort of punk rock colorful hair and hipster outfits and so um I think you have to be careful because if you overdo and I think the b

est example that comes to mind is Amber herd you know and Amber herd look came in looking like a Stepford Wife you know it it was a little too much you know it looked sort of disingenuous and so um you got to be careful but it is strategy and it is something that you know typically is a good idea because you don't want the jury to look at the client like how the client looked at the time I know what you mean I know what you mean but I want you to take a listen to the testimony of Rebecca Smith w

ho worked for craft services on on Rust because if she takes a stand I think this might come up on Cross did anything unusual happen when you left Miss gu's room yes she asked me if I could hold on to something for her I said yes she put it in my hand and I walked out as there was a knock on the door it was a clear Ziploc baggie with a green small Ziploc baggie inside and there was powder inside the green baggie what color was the powder white okay Sarah will drug use or alleged drug use keep he

r from taking the stand because you got to face those type of questions is it a big deal uh in this case well one of the charges this evidence tampering it's the idea of her trying to uh get rid of the cocaine um and I think one of the instructions was supposed to be can we can we say substance as opposed to cocaine and the judge said no cocaine's cocaine let's call us SP of Spate so it's really bad for her because where there's drugs there should be no guns and vice versa guns and drugs don't g

o together and that's one of the reasons I think she should not take the stand uh even though that's a decision that is always risky it's a fluid process we make that decision sort of sometimes at the last minute but more importantly Vinnie it's also this whole defense the defense has been the blame game you know soand so was at fault the entire set was dangerous OSHA viol Etc well two things can be true there could be a really unset safe and other people could be at fault and she too could be a

t fault you know one of your other guests just said you know she was she had the ultimate Duty right so again it doesn't take away her culpability and I think the problem with her taking the stand is she will get eviscerated um it's not a good look for her to out of her mouth engage in that blame game it's one thing if her attorneys argue it um or allude to it but I I agree with you I don't I don't think she's going to testify I don't think she will in this case sah we're out of time tonight but

we'll do it again for sure check out the new podcast