British traitors fighting for Vladimir Putin | The News Agenda

he morning everybody happy hump day and welcome  to the news agenda with me Fleet Street Fox and today I'm joined by my fellow mirror columnist  Darren Lewis morning Darren morning morning you've got a cup of coffee too much much welld deserved  and needed for us both exactly it's one of those mornings now this is the people's pay-per-view  so get into the comments ask us your questions we'll do our best to answer them for you those  of you listening later on podcast will just have to resign fro

m a dead end job and hope someone  else will think you're employable so what have we got for you today well The Mirror Has splashed  on two British men who have gone to join Vladimir Putin's illegal war on Ukraine apparently the  first known to have done so and who face being jailed as terrorists if they survive and return  home more on that later but first talking about dead end jobs and being unemployable I want to  go to page six where two more Tory ministers have quit ahead of an upcoming el

ection Darren is  it the case that before long do you think Rishi sua is going to walk into his Downing Street  office one morning and find a note on the desk saying I'm sorry but there's no ministers left  you rehearsed that didn't you um it's very yeah uh this is Lizzy Ban's story um about another two  Tory ministers affirming they're going to stand end before the next election that's now more than  60 MPS uh actually I think it is 60 MPS to MPS who told Rishi Sun that they won't be standing d

own  all the indications um appearing to be that as things stand their party is facing a wipe out and  I think you know the interesting thing Su is that we've covered most of the reasons why Well you  certainly have on this show um and I was trying to go through them in my head as you were talking  living cost living crisis corruption self-interest xenophobia uh lack of investment in the education  system the Health Care System the police force um and all that is even before you even get to all 

the scandals wind Rush Grand veterans blood cancer party get as you were saying Matt hanock had his  trousers down during the period where he needed to his head down dealing obviously with all of  that um so there's so so much that s that the public just want to wave goodbye to and that's  why so many of the MPS understand or or decide have decided that they want to go the two guys in  question in Liz's piece I haven't even mentioned them yet the skills Minister Robert halin um and  the Armed F

orces Minister James heape they're gonna go immediately that was the thing that  struck me um Halen he's the minister for MP for har in Essex which isn't that far away from me and  he's been an MP since um 2010 I think Rich sunx um I think he's he's had the reshuffle already but I  think he's looking ahead to the local elections in May um the analysts who know what they're talking  about suggest that the conservative party could lose half the seats that they're defending which  is a real really

big reason for why a lot of analy reckon Tories can keep half their seats good  luck with that one rich she I don't think that's quite right Mike says has Wishy sunak appointed  Jonathan gallis as Deputy chair of the Tory party to prevent him defecting to reform in May and if  so will it work Jonathan Galis for those of you who don't know is the thickest lump of ham in the  conservative party and that's going some and he's just been made Deputy chairman now there are a  teen Deputy chairman of t

he conservative party and they all seem to uh get the role really  to keep inquire or to to do you know Deputy chairman in charge of paperclip something like  that and Jonathan GES has been given this job in in sort of the the mini reshuffle that sunak  has been forced to have and uh as our colleague Jason Bey said in his politics news letter which  I hope everyone subscribed to this morning there is no clearer sign that you are scraping the  bottom of the barrel than promoting Jonathan gullis t

o an important job like that and what do  you think everybody do you think these ministers going is a you know an inevitable sort of sign of  impending duom or is it just one of those things and we should stop getting excited about it um if  you're a minister you are expected to campaign in a general election which we're going to get at  some point this year in fact you're quite an important part of that campaigning so you have  to go all over the country so if your heart's not really in it you

know it's quite right to  bow out before the vote is called so someone more enthusiastic than you can do the hard work  right that's makes sense um but Robert Haron who us said there's the skills Minister he spent  nine years trying to get elected in the first place Darren he stood twice before he finally  got in in 2010 under David Cameron he lost he lost twice there he pe's leaving tweets from the  mod make it really clear that he loves his job as Armed Forces Minister and considers that  it e

verything there was absolutely spiffing and marvelous what can it be that has so sapped  the enthusiasm of two such highly motivated men as halfon and heape they're not you know they're  not ired and Scandal they're not having facing a recall petition they're not disgraced like Matt  Hancock they're not um facing a bi election or anything else they're they're highly motivated  they love the party they love the job and they've gone you know what me leing the mirror right it  would be the last Rat

s on the [ __ ] wouldn't it absolutely I'm died in the W man and you died  in the W woman so I think yeah we we would be the last two Rats on on on sh but I think as far  as these two are concerned I think you're right they're not rats they're not my in Scandal but I  think they are an example of the many MPS on the conservative party within the conservative party  within cabinet who are looking at the list that I just read out to you a second ago and more and  that we may not even know about at

the moment and they're deciding there have been so many areas  of our society that have simply been burned to the ground that they've simply given up trying to  win over the voters it's going to be such a tough arduous job and they' decided it's better for  them to quit than to bow out than to be thrown out rather um and the interesting thing is I was  reading a piece about I can't remember the The Minister's name George Osman it might have been  they called him nine jobs John George oorn yeah

yeah I think it was and I think in some cases  you know MPS the the more celebrated and I use that word advisedly higher profile I should say  ones probably will go into well-paying jobs in business in in in in various corporations but  not everyone will and I think many of them will want to give themselves um the opportunity to be  able to find jobs that they think they can go into rather than trying to flog a dead horse by trying  to convince voters to disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes

and that's the reason I think  they'd go um I've been looking at some numbers I've got them on my screen here and and and that  really did fascinate me uh Susan I'm just going to read you a couple of them at the moment because  in 2010 150 MP stood down so although it looks pendous for the Tes there is a precedent for a lot  of MPS standing down in the past and the 150 MPS that stood down in the past they were mainly from  the labor party um and they saw the end coming and they decided you know

what we're going to jump  ship uh now an average of 87 MPS stood down in elections between 70 9 in 2010 but and and I read  those numbers to to say the big difference is and you will know this even better than me this year  the many of the MPS who are off are young in some cases really young um some in their 30s a couple  in their 40s I think Mary Black is standing down as well and she's quite young too and that baby  of house isn't she she's only in her 20s exactly and and this is quite signif

icant area to kind of  think about in terms of MPS deciding you know what I can't do this anymore yeah they don't seem to  want to have you know all the if you think about some of the grand old war horses we've got on the  back benches Harry Haron in Labour for example the mother of the house you've got Tory Grandes  on on their back benches have' been there for a million years in opposition and in government and  the people that sort of leaving now don't really want to have to spend any period

in opposition it  would seem um and you know they they stake their jobs and their careers on popularity and winning  and the CH they seem so certain to lose next time they just don't want to be the one who's the loser  if you like um Mike says maybe they're abandoning their ministerial roles to give them a head start  in an outside job to avoid acoba which is the um organization which vets future jobs for former  ministers it's absolutely toothless it makes no difference whatsoever it's done not

hing to stop  Boris Johnson for example cashing in with foreign magnates and goodness knows what else um but I've  got to say Darren if they think they're going to leave the job in House of Commons and walk into  something you know nicely well paid unfortunately the conservative government repeated conservative  governments have left us with a low-wage economy they could well find themselves on a zero hours  contract somewhere what a shame that would be and is a Pity about Robert halfon he's I t

hink he's  I'm right and saying he's the only physically disabled uh MP in the house of Commerce certainly  the only one in in C in government and speaking of someone who has a nonvisible disability um I have  epilepsy which was marked yesterday at purple day it mattered that there's someone in the house who  has to struggle with something physical and and you know is is there as a symbol if you like so it  matters that he's stepping down but you know these guys they're not just leaving office l

ike many  of the 60 that you mentioned down they're leaving politics all together they're not just saying I'm  not be Minister this isn't going to work they're out now obviously as you said there's going to be  a bit of a glut in the non-executive directorship market and there's going to be a lot of uh a lot  of Tores fighting for those spots on the board but why is it Dar do you think as I do that you  know they can see what will happen to their party after the election the the gutting the infi

ghting  the the obvious switch to the right which is lean is which is coming and they've just decided they  want no part of it I think it is I think right now politics I think a long politics stopped a  long time ago being about principle and became just a a Melting Pot of culture wars misdirection  um xenophobia lurching to the right and listen we tend to characterize everyone within the Tory  party and and as being the same but there are people whose politics are different to ours who  are sti

ll honorable Prin support people and I said cly don't want to use this slot to bash  all of them over their head but those on the far right who are trying to push an agenda that  characterizes everyone that is different as being a threat it could well be that these MPS have  decided I don't want to be associated with these guys I don't want to be in government with them I  don't want to being in government with them but I don't want to be in opposition with them this is  an opportunity to ship b

ecause as you say these aren't a couple of the more mendacious ones that  are whose misdeeds are well documented these are good guys and you made the really pertinent point  about representation I'm a black guy I want to see people who are different who represent people  who look like me in Parliament we need for the contingent across this country who either have a  a visible disability or a non-visible disability to have somebody in Westminister who can empathize  and sympathize and fight for t

hem and that's what we don't have so this these are dark moments and  the easy thing of course is is to point and and and laugh and and to you know have an element of  Shing FR but actually the lack of representation in the house of people whose views are not extreme  for people whose views might be slightly different but do still deserve that representation in West  Minister it's concerning for all of us yeah what do you think everybody do you think politics  is lacking principle is it going to

come back do you think after another election and we had  a very similar kind of uh not an exodus but an expulsion of what for one of a better word some of  the sort of the traditional Tories the one nation Tories after brexit um those who weren't loyal to  Boris Johnson who said I think some of the things you're doing are incorrect and I will stand up for  a principal whether we agree with it or not who stood up for a principal um and didn't follow the  government line because they thought it

was the wrong line got booted they had the whip withdrawn  and they they stood down in 2019 some of them so you know Ken Clark Nicholas SS have gone I was  speaking to a Tory backbencher the other day I do do it I am friends with some of them and who has  been uh I won't say his name but he's been an MP for more than 20 years in opposition and in power  I don't think he's ever served in government but um he's seen it all and done it all he's a very  determined cons consy MP who wants to represen

t people that he is he who voted him in uh and for  their best interests and he's just had enough he's just had enough after the last few years of  constant rowing and arguing and um polarization uh he's just got you know what I could be I could  be fishing and that's it and he's and he's he's an npce he's got a very nice pension he can just  go off and fish but you know if if people who who are dedicated and determined and principled are  leaving politics then that is a big issue I would think

and it would be a great shame if if that  doesn't turn around the other way yeah because you go into politics initially particularly if  you're young with an altruistic sense of virtue you want to fight for people you want to fight  on issues of principle on issues for the people around you for the people for the you you want  to be able to pursue do the things that drive you and if you get into government if you become  a minister and you think all right here I am with the real opportunity to c

hange things and you put  forward issues of principle and you get told by your party leader by you know whs or whatever um  no we're not going to talk about that we're going to I don't know talk about the last night of the  proms and why we don't have them anymore or some kind of um ludicrous piece drum up by a section  of the rightwing media that will deflect from the tough decisions that have got to be taken or from  the issues of principle that have to be discussed eventually it must grind yo

u down it must make  you think what am I doing this for um and maybe there is an other area of society that I could  go into and really make a difference rather than being part of this cabal this Cavalcade of clowns  who really are just driving the country into the ground yeah bit like journalism when you come into  it for the best possible reasons you get all your principles knocked out of you over the years and  eventually someone goes oh you know what PR that's it I'm done but that does mean

of course there's  there's none of the old sort of the old war dogs if you like who are red in tooth and Claw who are  there to help you know the the transition to the next stage and without the principal people in  the conservative party the next opposition if they form that one will be slightly different and  it won't be better if it was a bit more reasonable anyway we running out of time we do need to move  on to the next story The Susie you you sorry just just you make such a good point ther

e and it's  just worth sticking with because I think we do need a strong opposition because you know yes we  can't see the back of the Tories fast enough but it doesn't mean that whoever replaces them should  be able to enjoy power unchecked and if you have a principled opposition then there is a better  chance of policy that might not necessarily be policy that we agree with being challenged as it  should be in a democracy and if strong opposition what what then yeah someone checks homework tha

t's  the point and if you have a strong opposition you know you need to do your own homework more  carefully whereas if you have a weak opposition can this is fine we'll just get it through no  one's going to stop us we got a majority of 174 bang we'll be all right anyway we've been going  for 17 minutes we still haven't got to the main story of the day I've pled on these in the wrong  order this morning because Darren's been able to go on about tor much longer than he probably will  this bit an

yway onto the main story of The Day The Mirror Has revealed these identities of two  British men who have gone to dbass not the donbass that's what Russians say donbass in eastern  Ukraine to fight in Vladimir Putin's mincing machine so who are they Darren what can you tell  us about them we've got Ben Simpson and Aiden mice yeah I'm glad you've known because that's I  thinking don't really want to give these guys five minutes of phone they don't like particularly  Pleasant pieces of work but le

t's give credit to the guy who's put this all together it's Matt  roer his exclusive it's on the British fighters who are flying to Ukraine very helpful caption  there uh to fight for um Russia uh they're known to they're thought to be the first Brits known  to be fighting for Russia uh Matt had a really fascinating chat with them um and it says that  they're in the dbass region as you were saying and the piece actually quotes a former British  Army Commander colon Richard Kemp who describes him

both as a disgrace I'd put that quite mildly  but there you go and as you were rightly saying a bit earlier on one of them's a convicted terrorist  the other one's a an ex-national front supporter and a drug addict so when you're thinking to  yourself oh my goodness what could have made these guys decide they're going to go out there  well I think that gives us a little nudge in uh the right direction um the one who um has been  jail for Terror offenses he spent performance uh helping a russian

-backed separatist group uh in  2015 which was the year after Russia Annex Crimea um and background to that is that he'd gone over  there to drive ambulances and then he read Russian propaganda online um and the rest is horrifying  history so that's just a little bit about the guys that we're talking about gosh now what do you  think everybody do you think this is uh acceptable do you see that these guys as terrorists or do you  think that they're perhaps just a bit mistaken and they need to be

sort of forgiven and all well um  now these what have they done while they're there well they've been posting on Instagram because  they're Geniuses which is how they were spotted Ben stimpson uh who di is talking about there said  he went to Ukraine in 2015 to drive ambulances but actually ended up fighting for Russians when he  returned home he was jailed for five years for terrorism offenses because fighting uh with with  Putin is fighting with someone who uses Terror uh and you're also fight

ing against one of our allies  so that is that's a criminal offense and when he was soon as he was released he seems to have  gone straight back and done it again Aiden mice is a former National front member a convicted Thug  whose lawyers once told a UK Court in mitigation for some of his crimes that he was a class a drug  addict and Alcoholic by the age of 20 now down Putin isn't using these to for propaganda purposes  they're not being paraded there he is by Dobby the house elf um that that h

e's not shouting about it  he's not going hooray I've got British soldiers in my forces um why might he not be really making  a meal out of it well I think as I say as you've been saying I we've both been saying um these two  individuals are not exactly Paragons of virtue um and so it might it would not necessarily be  the biggest Flex as the kids would say uh to have these two uh miscreant um as being symbolic  of what you are trying to do um and you know as individuals and there's a really goo

d sidebar down  the side of uh this piece by Matt roer by Chris Hughes as our defense and security editor and he's  talking about the fact that a lot of people out there have been press ganged into it a lot of the  men that have gone to war they've not gone through Choice they've gone because they've had to uh but  in this case and you know some people do it for money some people do it for Freedom they' got all  their reasons out there that some individuals out there do that forgive me just turn

this little  phone off um but this is very different because these they've chosen to go out there they've  chosen to sign up with a pro-russia military unit they've chosen to align themselves with murderers  and torturers and and people whose misdeeds are well documented if you've been anywhere near  a TV or a newspaper over the past however long you will know that they are well documented but  Putin doesn't want you know we we haven't seen these two as you've been saying stuck in front of  a t

of a camera basically saying you know isn't Putin fantastic and being used as propaganda  precisely because of the kind of individuals they are and one element very quickly of uh Matt's  investigation which was fascinating for me anyway which he spoke to the families and it talks  about the impact that this whole thing has on the people around you who might you know who don't  necessarily share your views who are horrified by the decision that you've made and Matt's talked  to the father of one

of these individuals who just said I cut him off I don't want anything to  do with him um and then Matt has also spoken to the individual about his father and you get the  picture the bigger picture that this is a very very happy family um and the decision that the  individual has made is as a result of a very very very troubled Family Life yeah very troubled men  both of it would see now Linda says what about the Brits fighting for the Israeli military the same  questions apply they don't actu

ally Linda because uh Israel is our Ally and the criminal offense  whether you like it or not is fighting against one of our allies so um if you were in Hamas you would  be committing a terror offense if you were in the Israeli Defense Force you are not committing a  terror offense according to British law added to which the Israeli government is democratically  elected and the last time hamus actually allowed anyone to have any elections in Palestine which I  think was more than a decade ago th

ey threw their political opponents off rofes uh it's not quite  the same and the same questions do not apply I'm afraid and if you think I'm saying that because  I'm paid by Israel do let me know where I should send the invoice I think they owe me some money  now these two in uh Russia they're actually sorry Ukraine they're kind of the male equivalent of  shimi mum okay the young girl who's been had her citizenship stripped from her uh after she went  off and joined Isis now they've left the cou

ntry they were born in to fight in a foreign war on  the wrong side uh if they ever tried to return to Britain they would find themselves jailed again  or stripped of their citizenship now the last one probably won't happen Darren because they these  two aren't Brown and that tends to happen with people who are brown as far as we know but these  Instagram posts that they've made are going to be the primary evidence whatever does happen to  them after the war is over they're not exactly strategic

Geniuses uh Colonel Kemp as he says  there as called them traitors to their country uh because we're helping Ukraine in the fight  they're literally fighting against our weapons and troops trained by us and perhaps if one day  things get worse they might actually be fighting their countrymen directly but it does seem Darren  that a bit like shamimi you know they've been brainwashed they've been groomed to some extent  they had no hope lives uh and they just latched on to a cause that s somehow

reaffirms all the  worst things they've ever heard and they're you know they've got a mindset that just isn't quite  right um do you have any sympathy for them now that they're in this sort of brutal War started  by a dictator whose soldiers are dying every day and whose generals clearly don't give a damn about  them yeah I mean the second part of your um your question almost provides the answer because on the  one hand you don't have sympathy for somebody who has decided because their lives are

empty they're  going to go and take the lives of other people you do however and I'll phrase it I'll be careful  with the phrasing but you do get an Insight from Matt's piece of how it came to be and you get the  sense that perhaps as individuals they never had a chance because of their upbringings and and  that has really affected the decision making um and it is a reminder that online propaganda the  impact can be devastating on and we're not just talking about children but people whose lives

are  empty they can be Hoodwinked by that kind of thing into going and making decisions that won't just  affect their lives but affect the lives of so many other people it's it's a Terri terrifying  story all around and do I have sympathy for them it's such a hard one it's such a hard  you drew the parallel with the shimy mum she was a child when she was groomed into making  that decision these are adults who consumed propaganda and were hoodwin by it the whole  thing is a Sor situation around

yeah I mean what she mean were called a an Isis bride which  she absolutely wasn't she didn't get a choice about who to marry anything else she was a sex  trafficking victim um well these guys are just Putin stoes in a way being able to understand  how something has come about doesn't mean that you're okay with the fact that it came about  put it that way um what do you think everybody do you think these guys should be allowed back  home do you think they should be jailed or not I think we just

had a comment from Mike which  got taken down before we uh were able to read it out and have it back in some people especially  ex Army people will search out any opportunity to a gun uh these guys aren't ex Army um because the  Army would never have had them fundamentally but there is there is certainly a case that some  ex-military have gone I think to join fight in in Ukraine and that's legal that's allowed  at the moment anyway who knows what happen next week um but that's that's acceptable 

uh this fighting for the the bad guys is uh is not now uh we've had all this going on  for a while now and at some point the war in Ukraine will have a a decisive uh end one way  or the other it doesn't look like it's going to come anytime soon when that happens uh these  guys they may not have survived because it's an absolute mincing machine out there like I said  and they're not being treated terribly well by their generals generals very rarely do treat  their troops well but um you know we'

ll have to sort of wait and see how some of this actually  falls out and whether the British authorities treat them the same way as they did shamim mum if  they try to return uh we'll have to wait and see for that one won't we all right thank you for  that Darren and explaining some of that to us now we have managed to find some good news in the  world and it's b army person actually so here it is now this guy has not picked up a gun again you  might not think there's nothing more Bonkers than t

rying to climb Mount killer Manjaro with  a fridge on your back but uh hgv driver and former Squad Michael Copeland for ex Gren dear  Gods would agree with you and that's why he's done exactly that to raise awareness of mental  health now Darren I think we're all aware having seen these pictures that he's he's not quite  same probably and we're certainly more aware of his mental health but is this proof do you  think that you know commitment to a cause for all the right reasons often produces fa

r better  results uh and public approval than choosing all the wrong reasons well I was thinking maybe you  and I I would the ones who were not quite sayane for for for not thinking of doing it ourselves  um I think if I go no it's as simple as that why would I why would I do this why would anyone why  why their back never mind try and climb a mountain with it you he in there you know at one point  that he was you know he's got altitude sickness he's running out of breath he hasn't got enough  o

xygen in his body most people can't get up kill a Manjaro flat they're doing on their own never mind  with the bling 30k fridge on their back I hope you had some beer in it well I I I know you know this  but 19,340 ft uh K Africa's highest mountain um and my favorite quote in the story um is where  Michael Michael Copeland isn't it um he says um most people struggle up there without a fridge um  you don't say um and look I I think you're you're right about the fact that you know commitment to a 

cause is something to be applauded when people are so committed that they will use unorthodox means  to be able to achieve their objectives we see all the time on a very um a much lower level quite  literally in the London marathon where people run for 3 four hours dressed in a dinosaur suit if  you like or like dressed as Thomas a tank engine or something um this is quite some commitment  to the cause there's another terrific quote in in Martin Fricker's piece which is probably my  favorite pi

ece of the day where Michael says um I've been bodybuilding for 10 years I'm only  5 foot s so I'm built for carrying fridges so what you need to do today wherever you are in the  world watching this you need to ask yourself are you built for carrying fridges and if not which  household appliance are you built to carry me I would suggest mug maybe biscuit Barrel right  biscuit Barrel under an arm I'm built to carry a biscuit Barrel carry a laptop what else might you  be built to carry if it's no

t a fridge I know I'm not built to carry a fridge definitely not I'm  I'm barely built to carry a bean bag so we'll have to just see but well done Michael you managed  to raise awareness of mental health anyway I don't know there any fundraising that is attached to it  but I know we might be able to find something and attach to the comments if there is um thank you  Darren for taking us through of that thank you everyone for taking part if you're listening  on podcast you can't see my terrible F

ringe um please leave us a review so everyone else can  find us uh and we'll see you again at we won't see you on Monday because it's Easter Monday we've  got a day off uh we'll see you this time next week next Wednesday for another edition of the  news agenda prime minister's questions will be on these channels at 12:00 noon and I dare say  k St We'll be asking if there's anybody left in government uh and so we will see you on Monday  till then everybody stay safe take care and Tatty bye