This is Prince Shakur your host
of the Creative Hour Podcast which is broadcast through
Verge FM an online DIY radio station based here in Columbus
Ohio on this episode of The Creative Hour we have a very
special guest we have Eli Hiller Eli Hiller is a Filipino
American documentary filmmaker and photo journalist that is a
Pulletzer Center grant recipient his video and photo
work spans from North America from Ohio to the West Coast of
the US to Central America to a thick stack of work that he di
d
while living in the Philippines for three years and one of the
reasons I wanted to talk to Eli especially is because as a
person in my life he basically to me kind of represents what a
modern kind of POC journalist can be whether that be the
different kind of assignments that he's chosen over the years
his ethics around travel Um just his commitment to his work
and how he shares space with people and for me he's also
someone that I view as a person that's also developed
politically and I look
to him in a lot of ways as a kind of
peer but also a guide. Um so I wanted to talk to Eli and give
other people out there that maybe are interested in
documentary filmmaking or photo journalism or travel or just
interested in how you can make media about social Movements
and the things that are happening in your community. Um
so welcome to the podcast Eli. How are you doing today? It's
great to be here Prince. Um this is a while. I've seen you
continuously work on this podcast and kind of worksh
op it
for the past few months and to see it all come together. It's
just been great. Um I've been watching and listening to your
past podcast and really excited to be here. So thank you for
letting me on here. Thank you. Um so I kind of there's two
ways I kind of want to start. Um so I mean some of the things
that that I kind of want to get into with you is like what was
it like growing up in Southeast Ohio growing up with a single
mother. A lot of you the travels that I know that you
did when y
ou were younger and then kind of getting into
studying photo journalism, studying journalism, and how
your career and kind of perspective on journalism and
media has changed since you've graduated have traveled. Um so
that's just to give you an idea. Just a light Yeah, just
my whole life story in a a matter of 5 minutes. No, I
mean, that's about to be an hour. You're ready. Um so,
yeah. First, I kind of like to start with when people are
young. So, what was young Eli? What was little Eli like an
d
and how did that boy develop into someone that loves
photography, loves video, that loves a lot of the things that
you do? Yeah, I think growing up, you know, I grew up in
Southeast Ohio Athens. I grew up in town. Um and for me there
was a lot of traveling in my life. My my mother would bring
me to Central America every winter for three or four
months. Mostly to I mean she was a snowboard. A snowbird.
She would escape winter all the time. And she would bring me a
phrase for it. Yeah yeah there
's a there's a bit of a
phrase for it. Um but she would pretty much bring me a like
with like on the travels and I would be home school when I was
living there. Um she introduced me to a lot of different
countries, different cultures, and as a kid I was like
constantly traveling and there were certainly a lot of pros to
that. There was definitely some cons too just growing up it was
difficult to maintain certain types of friendships or get
more involved in extracurriculars, sports,
relationships
but I'm very much grateful for a lot of
experiences I had as a young kid Have the ability to really
just meet lots of kids that are just living totally different
lives than you are and find some way to immediately create
and build this relationship with them has been I think I've
taken that and put it in all the context of my life. Yeah.
In my professional and personal life. So that has that that was
certainly something that I've been grateful for. Yeah. And I
guess one thing that I think of as
yours I don't know. I I
think of like class difference in how you did grow up in
Southeast Ohio. You grew up in a region that is it's one of
the poorest counties in Ohio because I I think there is a
difference in how you traveled growing up which was traveling
with your mother like living in different places, learning
languages, sometimes going to school there and how that's
different than maybe the average person going to college
who has a lot more money in their family and traveled for
like f
amily vacations. So, I guess was there ever a period
of time as you got older where you realized the way that you
traveled growing up gave you a certain kind of perspective on
travel or class and how that affects travel and tourism yeah
certainly I think I was lucky that my mother I mean my mother
was never she's never been rich she probably has never made
over 25, 000 a year as a carpenter and like a landlord
in Athens but she was incredibly frugal and she just
we just didn't spend money on thi
ngs that most families spend
money on Christmas we don't really do gifts my mother like
we did I did thrift stores for most of my life okay the only
really like major toys I had was like I had a game boy and
that was like that would just entertain me for hours and some
video games but in general we didn't have I mean I'd never
thought we were poor and I don't think we ever were but
we're very much like a kind of like like kind of lower class
generally and it didn't really strike me I feel like u
ntil I
moved to California what wealth really was but kind of getting
back to the aspect of travel so we didn't have wealth but we
had time we had the flexibility to leave for three or four
months and really kind of invest and develop like our our
ability to learn different cultures and go abroad and Yeah
I think once I've once like I that's that's beffled in like
that was the norm for me and to be honest just traveling with
other people has made me realize oh this is not how
people like most pe
ople travel because you know they only have
they only have a few weeks to really take a vacation. They
want to fit everything in and that tiny tiny take as many
photos as they can. Right right and I think you cannot divulge
like a whole culture a whole people in such a small period
of If you really want to get a culture and get a sense of what
it's like living in a place, you have to be there for three,
6 months. Yeah. Right? So something around there and. And
were those the kind of trips that y
ou were doing when you
were younger? Like just for that long. So we would do like
I guess this is pretty it's like slow travel. Yeah. Like
what we did is there was this from the age of seven to 13. We
would frequently go to this town in Belize. Um it's Kiko
it's pretty much this it's this pretty it's a pretty popular
tourist destination for a lot of Americans it kind of has it
has very strong Caribbean vibes there's a very strong
Afrocentric culture there they speak this Belizeian creel that
I k
ind of picked up when I was there when I was a kid a little
bit and there would be like three months where I was just
barefoot running like running on the beaches not wearing a
shirt perfect fish they had the fish ever. Ah. They had like
the best lobster and grouper that I've ever had and like
that was a lot of my life. I was like this Appalachian kid
growing up in Southeast Ohio during the summers and then I
was this island boy during the winters. Yeah. And it was this
kind of weird multicultur
al identity that I had for a while
and that I just kind of became a bit of a social chameleon in
any setting that I was at. Yeah. Right? And then also I
think a lot of that much ties into being a Filipino American
as well like it's a very the Filipino identity is very
ambiguous right so it it's one of those where I feel like both
in my my character and even how I look yeah I can just
generally blend in like a lot of things and it's not a
problem I mean that's you know traveling Latin America mos
t
people would assume I was Latino and I very much felt
very strongly with that did you say there was someone recently
that said that they thought you were a Moroccan no what no I
have a friend who's a Moroccan though no what I thought maybe
it was somebody else but yeah there's I mean and there's yeah
yeah yeah there's been people that have said like oh I
thought you were Arabic or something that definitely
happens but there's been many situations where like I have
felt Latino and I even joined
the like the National Hispanic
Journalist Association because I I was living in Latin America
for a portion of my life and I very much still identify with
that like that like for with the Latino people and Latino
culture and the narrative. Yeah. And certainly as like a
Filipino American like you know Spain, colonize, the
Philippines so the United States. So there's a lot of I
think things that we intrinsically like are very
similar in many ways. Yeah. So. Okay. But more so that I had
traveled t
here in my youth. But yeah I I kind of want to pivot
more into since this is a podcast about like creative
moments that have like shaped us mean can you can you talk a
little bit about how you got into photography. Mhm. What
attracted you to it and what it was like studying photo
journalism because you went to Ohio University. That's where
we met. Sure. Um I mean, I originally got into photo into
photography in general when you know, I took a a road trip with
my best friend and his family to Yel
lowstone National Park
and you know, we drove from Ohio to Yellowstone and you
know, it was a trip that probably took like a week and
my mother had lent me her digital cannon like point and
shoot and I just remember really just documenting the
whole trip and I just kind of I I loved just photographing
every little moment like along the trip and just kind of
following that narrative and that was just it wasn't like a
oh these photos are great it was like I love I love the
process of it what what
parts of the process did you like
combining adventure with something that gave meaning and
purpose to it like it's like I'm finding this I'm exploring
this per se yeah and I still very much like that aspect of
photography where I just I'm finding like I'm going on this
path or this light and just like finding something and
finding something more in myself about it and just like
documenting people around me. I just found it really fun. Yeah.
And really invigorating. And and so you photographed a
lot
there and then what was what went into your decision to
decide to study it? Um was that a scary decision? Was it an
easy decision? Yeah I mean after that trip when I got back
into Athens I was like like my best friend's father who
mentioned told me like oh like you have really good eye. You
have good composition. Like you should maybe explore this more.
I was like yeah I enjoy it. It's fun. I should. And there
was like a local photographer who he did a lot of art
photography on plants. And h
e like gave me this camera. I
gave me another camera. It was like a Niken Dseventy and it's
like super old. It was the slowest camera I have ever
owned in my life. Yeah exactly. That's it. But it was like it
was probably 15 years old at that point. Yeah. And it was
just like an old camera he had and gave it to me but with that
like it opened so many doors to just photographing all the time
and I had I was lucky enough to realize that there was a great
like photography program at OU and I kind of
knew it was our
game be going OU just for like financial purposes. Yeah. I was
like let me look more into this school. And then I reached out
to them when I was a I think a maybe like a sophomore. And
they're like like maybe late sophomore year or like early
junior year. They're like oh and I was Taking classes at you
because I was in the post I was in the post secondary program
for a year I was a yeah wow you're also a year younger than
everyone else yeah but so I was taking college classes my
junior and senior year just because I wanted to start
getting credits out of the way and I took the ACT and barely
pass like a 22 yeah. like it wasn't that good but I I had a
good GPA okay so like GPA in at high school yeah it's like a 3.
9 or four like I was like but it was like yeah that it wasn't
that hard but like but because of my GPI I was able to take
college classes yeah yeah and honestly those classes were
easier than high school that that first year but I was like
oh maybe I can take
class like photo classes and they're like
oh no you can't do that until you actually finish high school
okay but like keep on photographing you know more
people because I showed them my portfolio which at the time was
probably like birds insects like maybe a few friends, some
landscape. Wasn't there that bloody photo? I I remember when
I first met you there was a bloody photo of Tanner on your
Facebook? Oh that now that was like I was I was already in the
prom at that point. Okay. Yeah that was
like a that was like a
portrait that was fun though. I like that. I was getting real
creative with that one. Yeah. But that was I was still oh my
freshman year about you. But before that I really wasn't
photographing many people. I was like okay I guess I gotta
start photographing more people now. And I kind of started
doing that and then applied to the program and I think I I it
was announced that I got in I think it was like the maybe the
second semester of my senior year and that was I was in
Costa Rica actually when I had gotten accepted and I had done
my interview with him I think as well when I was in in Costa
Rica maybe like a few months before and wow it the internet
there was awful so it was like people were going in and out
yeah yeah I was at the internet cafe and it was like cutting in
and out and I was like I hope they can hear me I can't think
I want you to come right exactly and then I think it was
on Valentine's Day 2012, like I had gotten accepted okay and I
was like ye
ah I was stoked it it was amazing and what was
what was your experience studying at OU I mean I know
that you're a double major photo journalism and geography
but I guess I'm more curious about the photo journalism as
What was it like studying that at Ohio University because it's
I mean it's a world is it a world renowned program or
nationally yeah yeah I think it was super lucky that I happen
to be living in the same town where they have like one of the
top like top federalism schools in the co
untry but I think
there's so many people that go into the program not really
knowing what they want to do and that's totally fair like at
the age of 18 or 19 how can you really know like a yeah, I
want to be a photo cheerlist for the rest of my life. Mm
hmm. Right? So, there's certainly a lot of people in
that program at first that are like, what is this? Like, do I
like this? Yeah. And and but what is really nice about
having a four-year program like that is like you can really dig
deeper into
your process and I think that's why I prefer the
undergraduate program over like the masters because the masters
like you're it's like within two years, you're taking this
whole program in like just putting it all in one thing.
Okay. And it's just like so much because a lot of the
professors just had so much knowledge that they're putting
in there whether it's photo story or editorial or news or
video and audio. Um so it's very hands on. Okay. What I
love about the program is like it's one of th
e most hands on I
think photonalism were the most hands-on program that there is.
And and for OU do you think I I guess I'm wondering why that is
and and and one thing that comes to mind is like the post
being a daily newspaper but why do you think scripts is more of
a hands-on program like why do you think that approach. So
yeah, we're in the we're in a separate school, the school of
visual communication. Okay. But it's still within the College
of Scripts. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um but why is
it so hands
on? It's hands on because it comes to a lot of the
background, a lot of professors that are there. They don't want
you just to learn theory. They have you out photographing
every week. Mm hmm. And like finding stories, creating
stories that are really really unique you know and are like
kind of telling of what you're interested in. So it's a lot of
busy work. I mean it's a lot of like you're out in the field
all the time trying to find something as opposed to be like
oh this is like
a really great photographer. Let's learn about
the theory and concept behind that. And there's something to
be said about that for sure. But like if you want to get the
ball rolling and really develop your aesthetic and your style
and like a portfolio They want you shooting like all the time.
Mm hmm. So. How did you find work? Sure. As a
photojournalist while being a student. Yeah. That's a hard
thing to balance but I think the nice thing about that is if
you can overlap with a lot of the work t
hat you were like the
people you're shooting for with your like project that's nice
but I unfortunately didn't do that but I how did I find work?
So first year I was in the I was kind of in the post and I
was doing that but It really wasn't much of like being paid.
Then my sophomore year. The Athens News. Yeah. Sophomore
year I started doing more things for the Athens News. I
worked for the EW Script School of Journalism. I photographed
for Athena's cinema. Um I worked I photographed for the
Voi
novich School for a little bit. Um I've gotten a lot of
gigs from like university things and it helped the
biggest self promotion. It was probably photographing for the
Athens News. Okay. Um because that really like showed people
that like okay I can I'm like a semi professional and I can
handle this work I can handle other things I had a I've had a
long standing relationship with the EW Script School of
Journalism got to know the director really well because I
photographed the high school journ
alism workshop and this is
back in 2014 okay because I had a journalism professor and
they're like hey we need a photographer like are you
available this summer I was like yes please Was it was the
pay well? No, not at all but it helped me open doors to
everything else. Yeah. Right? And I think that's the biggest
thing is once you're in a program, don't take into
consideration money too much because it's like, yeah, work
is good but if you really want to build a career, you
have to just start ph
otographing all the time when
you're in university because it's like you rather want to do
that in in university as opposed to doing it like once
you're out of it. Yeah. Cuz you're building up this
portfolio. You're building up clients and trust and
relationships. Yeah and and I'm so glad you said that because
that's one and that's the reason I wanted to rephrase the
question because I don't know. I I feel like I knew you then
as like someone working as a photojournalist even if it was
like as a
student for money and I feel like I wished I could
look back at that and ask your questions knowing that I would
eventually get into freelance work and so I guess I just
wanted to ask that because I I feel like there's a gap between
how at least and how I was taught writing in school and
then how I earned money as a writer once I graduated and I
and I guess I just wonder is there was there that gap for
you and what you felt like you were taught versus what you
felt like you actually had to do a
s a working journalist once
you graduated. Was there any dissonance for you in terms of
that? I mean there certainly was and there even is now but I
think it was one of those things that the program at OU
and Viscom it prepares you to you know get internships, get
fellowships, get a staff job, hold on to that as long as you
can but the reality of journalism is that that is no
longer that's that's like that is no longer going to exist in
the future. Not all staff positions are going to be
availab
le to everyone. Yeah. Right? So, I mean, that's why I
took the freelance route. Um has it been perfect? No. But
I've had to learn so many other things about it and I feel like
I'm I'm learning every day and but the past year has really
been revolutionary coming back here and being part of a photo
community again and and that's really helped me so much. Um
but when I was researching you on Google I I researched Eli
every once in a while because he's a really good friend of
mine. So if anyone's ou
t there YouTube Eli Hitler and you'll
find his acting reel. Oh no. I would actually I won't put this
in the episode. So if you did. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Got
your permission. Is like being a person of color and a
journalist and like a young journalist today. Um and I was
researching and I found that you were interviewed for an
article that came out. Uh it was either this year or last
year I believe and it's titled Ohio's widest newspaper. Oh no.
Um so just through just through knowing a little
bit of your
history. Uh you graduated from Ohio University in twenty
sixteen. Um you said I was taken aback. Um and this is in
reference to an experience with a microaggression that you had
while working at a particular newspaper and you said I was
taken aback This was my first experience in the in the field
of professional journalism. My first big opportunity, the
first thing I heard was, oh, you're brown. I wanted to
challenge the narrative of whiteness that Columbus and
even its name represe
nts. I thought, I'm probably not going
to be doing the stories I want to do. That was a concern from
the get-go. I don't know. I think it's really important for
journalists or people of color who work in media to be able to
be really transparent about these experiences and I'm sure
that happened in From my understanding you didn't speak
up about it right away and you you needed time to process. Um
what would you go back and tell that twenty16 Eli slash what
advice would you give to journalists o
f color who are
entering the field now? Whoo. And that's a hard one because
it's like I don't even now I don't know what I would tell my
my 2016, 2015 self when I was entering the dispatch. Like
it's probably going to be fine. Just like keep on doing what
you're doing generally. I would say things have majorly changed
so much in the past year. At least people are trying to
change their image about how they represent themselves in
the journalism field. Um do you mean individual journalists or
new
spapers? More so institutions and newspapers.
Like there's this very much there's huge push right now
towards creating diverse voices that are telling a variety of
stories. Um it it's so interesting to see that because
like like this is what I wanted like five years ago and now
it's just like oh okay it's gotta take the death of like
like the the brutal lynching of someone to make this like
happen. Yeah. Right? It's unfortunate that that's
happening. I'm glad it's happening. I just wish it
happe
ned for more holistic reasons. Right? Um I don't
think It's the end all be all just because sure you can you
can hire you can start hiring and hiring like journalists of
color, photojournalists of color and like editors but you
really it's more of the power structure and economic who's
investing. Right. Who is making the decisions in terms of like
I don't know like what kind of coverage that particular
publication wants to do. Certainly there's that. It it's
for me I see it more of the for me th
ere's more of a historical
element and like socioeconomic it's more like people of color
they don't see journalism as a career to put their money into
as in you have first generate first you have first generation
immigrant families what are they telling their children
from a doctor lawyer or work in STEM right exactly and that's
all fine and good but they're not telling people to pursue
creative fields and even if you are interested you're
incredibly dissuaded by your family yeah like is what I'
ve
heard from a lot of journalists of color. I think I was almost
lucky that I the Philippine American, my mother's white.
Yeah. She never even thought about it. She's like, do what
you want. Yeah. Right? But it's also, that's one aspect of it.
Certainly have family then you have just in general like the
amount of money it takes to put in a career where you have to
buy thousands of dollars of equipment. It's not easy. Yeah.
Um so there's that as well and it's like also then it comes to
represent
ation. How many people of color see other people of
color that are in feel of position. Like you can't see
yourself in that. How can you ever achieve that? Yeah. And I
guess it's interesting to think about because I'm thinking of I
guess when I was graduating I didn't really have an idea of
what it was like to be a black writer. I think I was learning
but it is interesting for me to think about it in terms of my
senior year was when I was working for the Athens news and
I think I'd written my fi
rst kind of I it was my first piece
of like journalism. I I don't even know if it was it was for
an Athens news catalog. I interviewed like a local
business owner but it was my first time writing and getting
paid And if I'm looking back the only journalist I had an
idea of who was black was Wesley Lowry. What what would
it look like for people of color to grow up and to to see
art or being in journalism or to see that as a viable
industry. Like what do you think would have to change? I
mean it's
a big question but I guess I think about it a lot
and I was being interviewed a few days ago and it's something
that I talked about a lot but I I I wonder what that looks like
for you especially like we're going to talk about it more
later but like you lived for three years in the Philippines
like I'm sure that gave you like an even deeper kind of
perspective but what would that look like in your in your mind?
Um I mean in short it's like the industry as a whole has to
change. There has to be a
n economic model that can support
diversity. And right now with like I think United States as a
whole and capitalism is just not working. So I think there
has to be a whole shift in how like economics of journalism is
for United States. I'm not exactly sure what that looks
like. It could be looking at Nordic states in Northern
Europe and looking at how they are like funding journalism and
seeing it as like a social good. It could be that. That
could be like definitely a step in the right directi
on. Um or
does it mean like some form of state media where people are
certified journalists. Um and that carries some weight and
and like heaviness and like that would could certainly like
bring in more diverse voices if you have an economic model that
can really support people like in a career like that. If we're
talking like full-time jobs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because
right now, it's like people they'll they're they're
definitely more willing to go towards a freelancer route
because they can th
ey can do the work they love and then do
corporate and client works to support that, right? And
somehow find a balance. Um I think that's what it is for me
right now but I totally realize that people aren't as crazy as
me. Yeah. Like do spend all that energy in both of those
like fields and really diversify your income. It's not
easy by any means. So really you just have to make it easier
economically for journalists before we can get this full
diversity. I think right now there's a lot of effor
ts that
are happening though of course you know there's a there's a
lot of institutions that are prioritizing people of color
for a lot of fellowships and internships and grants. There's
more grant programs that are coming out. Those are all
certainly well and good. Um but there neoliberal response to a
system that is oppressing people of color. Totally. It
it's it's not yeah it's not like a it's not a long term
solution in my opinion. Like like but am I taking advantage
of it as much as I can?
Yes. No but I don't even think it's
taking advantage of your back. You should be getting even more
roses out here. I mean I think it's just like one of those
things that's like just coming back like to the United States
after being gone for so and being like oh like you're a
person of color tell these stories and I'm like okay like
I I mean yes like wow now you care wow so to see these things
like really shifting and it's just like maybe I've been like
a cynic for so many years and now people ar
e just realizing
just recently what it what it means yeah I just fear that
whatever changes they're making now it it it and maybe this is
just because this happened yesterday or the day before I
can't remember if I was with you maybe it was yesterday but
I was walking somewhere and I saw a tree in someone's yard
and you know how after all the protest last summer people had
put their BLM signs in their yard and this person had a BLM
sign but it was permanent marker that they'd written the
words B
lack Lives Matter on a piece of paper and they taped
it to a tree and I'm like is this the presentation though? I
don't know. I don't know why I'm relating you talking about
what I consider lackluster kind of diversity efforts to Black
Lives Matter being taped to a tree but No, I mean, I think
it's what you're talking about is this form of performative.
Yes. That is happening in all all industries but especially
so in journalism because we're we're industries, we're an
industry that is telling t
he narratives of who. We're
talking about like vulnerable communities. Yeah. Who are
those people? Marginalized communities, people of color.
So, it's like, it wants to, the journalism as a whole wants to
like be like, hey, we care. Like, we care. Even if the
whole socioeconomic history of it is obviously no. We haven't.
Yeah. So mm. Well on that note we're going to take a little
break and when we get back to the Creative Hour we'll be
talking to Eli about living in the Philippines and generally
what it's like to be a subversive filmmaker and
journalist. Be right back. Hello, this is Prince and I'm
the host of the Creative Hour Podcast but I'm also the person
kind of chiming in, answering the question of what do I
respect about Eli and his work ethic? Um almost an impossible
question to answer because I when I met Eli I think I
recognized in him the thing that I always want when I meet
new people which is this person is going to change my life he
eats healthy. He is just a really hard
worker for the
things that he cares about on the level that sometimes I'm
like you can calm out. You can chill out but seeing that work
ethic and being able to be a part of it through like the
video work that we've done together or just talking about
our careers, I think him taking himself and his work so
seriously has compelled me to do the same for my work and
it's and him challenging me has helped me get into video work.
It's helped me travel, go to other places, and I think
knowing someone t
hat lives in a way that I want to and we can
reflect each and be friends and also challenge each other. I
don't know. It's one of the few relationships in my life where
I know like we're good. Yeah yeah and he and he he speaks
different languages. He travels. He I don't know and
and I think the biggest thing for me that I admire and I kind
of want more in myself that I see in him is that I think he
just has a kind of internal compass that a lot of people in
their 20s who are starting out their l
ife just don't have. Um
and I think he shoots off into the world and he figures things
out and that is something that a lot of people don't do. Um so
love you bud. Love you Eli and let's get back into this
episode. Alright, we are back with Eli
Hiller and let's get back into this conversation. Um before we
ended off, you said you wanted to talk a little bit more about
your time interning at the Columbus Dispatch. So, yeah,
what was what was that experience like? Um I know we
shared a little bit
about that experience on your first day
but yeah, what was the rest of it like? I think in general,
there were a lot of things that happened that summer and in
general, it was a really great internship. I learned so much
about like really meeting deadlines, shooting a variety
of photos, doing sports which is still not my strong suit but
I I use that to take away like everything from like
photographing a lot of breaking news and really fast-paced like
environments and also what it means to work w
ith a writer and
what it means to work with the staff. So, there's a lot that I
learned from that and very much grateful for that opportunity
though with that said, I can't lie that the journalism
environment there is it's just very there's just very very few
journalists of color that were in that news room and I never
really thought it being an issue until it was an issue
like until like that first day and I looked around and I'm
like oh I am the only brown person like in this room and
for them
it wasn't like at that time it wasn't really a
priority and I think remember seeing in that article that was
I was also interviewed for was they were talking about how
like oh we have like diverse people in in our internships
but it's like that doesn't really matter as interns we can
only do so many things in three or four months so what is that
what's the point if you're not hiring people on staff and the
other argument could be that like you're in Ohio and there's
just not many like diverse j
ournalists that are in the
region but it's also like what is the outreach that you're
doing to like institutions like the National Association of
Hispanic Journalists or a a Asian American journalist
association or the National Association of Black Journalist
like there's so many things that they could they could take
the time away and do that. Um there's also the argument that
like we it's like our the budget and dispatch since they
got bought out has just been slowly been shrinking, right?
And
that there's not enough money to really hire like
diverse journalists. Yeah, and they're not totally wrong but
it's also like you have to make start making steps in the right
direction. Yeah. And I think they're they're slowly getting
there but like it's something that's they're going to have to
build trust with a lot of those like communities of colors over
many many years. Yeah. So. And and I think what you're saying
makes me think of I don't know. I I think in terms of like
sacrifice I think
these institutions will have to
sacrifice things that they see as like necessary now in order
to have a different outcome because in my mind it's like if
if these institutions are sacrificing in order to get a
larger profit those sacrifices usually involve like vulnerable
communities like kind of like what you were speaking to
earlier I don't know it really just it really just takes me
back to what you were saying earlier like we have to change
the whole economic model because it's not economic
ally
viable at least in their mind to hire more people of color to
their practices to to I don't know to operate the office
space or the newsroom in a more conscious way I guess yeah.
Media. Yeah. Totally. And and I think this is the thing where
you'll see like you go to a lot of these protests and what are
the activists saying like the media's not paying attention.
The media's not paying attention. Um there and they're
not entirely wrong for these reasons. Where you have
institutions that have
frequently stereotyped like
these communities for decades and they're not looking for
Like institutional racism that's been obviously that's
been there. Right? Yeah. And they haven't put a lot of those
resource into that until very recently. Um and so you worked
you interned for the dispatch in the summer of twenty
sixteen. 2015. 02015. Then I interned for the Sacramento B
the next summer. Okay. Out in California. Okay so yeah I I
guess I kind of want to shift into like yeah what working as
a fi
lmmaker as a photojournalist was like after
college and I guess particularly through the lens
of everything that was changing politically and so I don't know
like I I I guess I just remember like when the 2016
election happened. I remember you talking about photographing
in Oakland where. Yeah. And and and so I guess I'm just curious
like what did that period of time represent for you as like
someone who was early career and then I I guess I'm curious
like how that space and time fed into you go
ing to the
Philippines and deciding to live there. Of course when
Donald Trump won the presidency in 2016 the whole world was
pretty much shocked. Um I was not alone in that. Um where
were you? No. So I was out in Sacramento at like a bar like
playing pool with a few people and just some strangers because
I didn't have any friends in the town. And I remember being
out and I remember there was some there were some guys that
were like they were like Mexican Mexican Americans and
they were talking
about how like what this means for their
family and all these things and they're like how could the rest
of America like be like this I was like let me tell you I'm
from those I'm from that part of United States. Oh yeah. And
like I mean I was surprised but I wasn't that surprised. Yeah.
Like I was shocked that he had won but I'm like okay that
makes sense. Like like you then I'm like did did he like did
Ohio vote for Trump at the time? Yes. And very much was
essential for winning the the electi
on. So it was like one of
those things where I'm like how the American perspective is in
the it's like the regional divide between so many things
is so vast. Mm hmm. Where Californians have no idea what
people in the Midwest are going to. Right? Um. Especially
people in rural areas. Right. Are areas that aren't as
densely populated. And it it's really easy for people and I
think in especially in larger cities like San Francisco and
LA to kind of subjugate Midwest to racism. Yeah remember when
we
went on that road trip and we met up with those people
from Tinder and who did they say to us? They were all people
of color and they said Ohio isn't that where the racist
people live and I'm like we're all people of color so it's one
of those things like you're not wrong but it's like if if you
just like put us all in this tiny bubble and assume that
we're like this like we're not having a more complicated like
conversation about like like all the different identities
regional identities that
exist across this vast country right
and I mean that's I think that's you know how that it has
been for so long it's how it was in 2020 and during that
election it's like we're all just Playing into this like
working middle class or we're playing identity politics.
Yeah. Right? And I think that's something the United States as
a whole needs to get over at some point. Right? How do we
bridge those barriers past that? Um how do we and like how
do we integrate people from the working class and the
white
class? Do you think that's possible in the United States
of America to do? I don't think I I think it's very going to be
very very very difficult but I think it's essential if we're
going to see success in this country or it's going to
falter. That's exactly because I'm like I don't think it's
possible to do in the United States within it but if we
didn't have the US anymore because I because I don't know
because I guess when you say that I'm like to me it just
seems incompatible with the
the project of what America is or
the the US. It it could be potentially that we see maybe
not total separate states but almost like you. I'm just
kind of relating back to my perspective in the Philippines.
You see like the southern part of the Philippines called
Mindanao will eventually govern itself at some point because
it's more predominantly have more predominantly Muslim
population that's just so culturally different than the
rest of the country and we might see something like that
or have
more more independent authoritative like bodies
within different regions that create things for themselves.
Almost like alliances amongst different states. Mm. Maybe
something like that. Am I am I in the wrong ballpark because
I'm thinking about how DC wanted statehood? Is that
that's a little different. That's like DC becoming a
state. It's more like you saw you see all East Coast kind of
become its own cultural identity or no more like
becoming like a European Union or something like that. Ok
ay.
Like you it's like like they have all kind of accumulated
and made like separate like tax what's it be Tax brackets. Tax
brackets but more like import export taxes just for the East
Coast or something something like that where their economy
is almost kind of separate from the rest. Um this is just like
a really vague theory like theory about what could
potentially happen. It's such a massive country. It's hard to
disseminate like one specific narrative to it. Right? And
yeah I think that's t
hat's certainly I mean that's its
strength and that's also its weakness. Yeah. What were we
talking about? We were talking about You're talking about what
it's like to be a working journalist outside of college.
Oh yeah so yeah. I'm talking about the the 20 16 president.
Yeah so how did how did 2016 in the presidential election
impact kind of kind of your perspective moving forward
because the election happened and then you went to the
Philippines in November of twenty 17. 16. Mm hmm. Um and
so
what what was your head space and yeah just I mean what
was what was going to the Philippines like and kind of
experiencing those kind of first moments of what would be
the next 3 years of your life? Yeah I think 2016 when Trump
won it was like internationally there was this I mean this
growing authoritarian figures in many democratic countries.
Brazil, the Philippines, the UK, I think Germany at the time
and maybe a few others. When did Modi get into power in
India? Um yeah he's probably in tha
t same like kind of time
that time same time frame but kind of kind of knew going to
the Philippines it was going to be something like that because
I had read about Duterte I had seen a lot of the the EJKs or
the extra judicial killings that were put on by the police
had like started and that like you know I think that ended up
in a huge New York Times article and I was like I'm
going to this country and like I had but I had been like
planning on going for like six months then I was like wow I'm
going there and this is what I'm going to like like I'm no
idea what to expect. I think I remember reading that article
and I remember thinking, oh my god. I'm black and I'm going to
another war on drugs. Right. But you know like you want to
talk a little bit like what was it like being in the
Philippines or more like yeah like I guess my my the latter
part of my question was like what are the moments that stick
out to you about those beginning months like that
first like half a half a year to
a year? Like what sticks out
to you now now that you're not there anymore now that those
three years are done? I entered Philippines at a very strange
time where politics were just shift Wildly. Um there were
human rights abuses having happening left and right. I was
I was like my politics and my understanding in history of the
Philippines. It was just just like it all happened with this
time span of like six months. It was like a crash course of
like Philippine history. Where I got there. I wou
ld like I you
know I traveled for a little bit. Traveled with you and then
we continually met activists that were going out there Like
talking about housing issues, land reform, socioeconomic
things and like the war on drugs, right? And I think it's
really easy as an American to look at that country and be
like this is the one thing that's happening but once
you're there, you can see the tie to everything else because
of the colonial history of the country and how it's all
happened. How poverty
has like has pretty much been like on an
escapable for a majority of the population and how that has
really like affected everything else in the country so going
there I remember in the first like some major events that
happened I remember I think it was in May I had I had been
volunteering for like this kind of alternative media org
there and like I remember hearing on radio like the
President Duterte had declared martial law in the state of
Mindanao and all in the whole state of Mindanao not j
ust
Marawi which was the city that was under siege a lot of the
the Islamic extremists of the of the Maute Klan from what I
remember and that was just I still I like I remember we were
in their office the radio was on and it was just like dead
silence when the President Duterte like made that
declaration and that was like wow this is like this is like
the 1980s yeah. and that's like harkening back to the Fernand
Marcos era where martial law also declared. So I'm like here
I am. Like I've only be
en in this country for five or 6
months and she's like this is this is like the beginning of
something like that is going to be historical. And then a few
weeks later they're like hey we're doing a trip. Do you
want to go? And I ended it as like someone who only been in
the country for seven months who didn't even know the
language. I was like yes. How can I not go? Yeah. And then I
remember going through numerous army checkpoints. Maybe three
or four to get to the outskirts in a Ligan where the
y like
hundreds of thousands of refugees or IDPs internally
displaced people that were in all these camps scattered
around a lot of the rural areas of the city and it's kind of
through that trip I found my people and kind of like where
where the direction of my career was headed I remember I
remember meeting several like activists artists that were
there that had started a group of artists that were speaking
out against the war on drugs and they had some family roots
and that were in that area a
nd kind of through that found a
lot of my closest friends. What did it change in you to live in
the Philippines to to learn how to speak Filipino to Galig to
work there I guess I relate to what you're saying in terms of
like how I view Jamaica and how growing up I always only had
like my familial kind of connection there and then as I
got especially in college like seeing white people with
dreadlocks and listening to Bob Marley like there's that side
of it but then there's the side of Jamaica th
at I know people
see as like ultraviolent and there's only one image of it. I
know what my relationship to Jamaica is. If you could
describe it, what it what is your relationship to the
Philippines? I think my relationship with the
Philippines is it was this time and space where I was able to
kind of step out of my comfort comfort zone as a as a like an
artist. I mean, previously, I would never even express myself
as being an artist. Um just because as a photojournalist we
I think that was the o
ne thing at OU it's like you're a
photojournalist like you're not it's not you're not really
creating art. You're like visually communicating
something. And I was like yeah yeah yeah that's it. And then
like when I got out there I was like oh there's so much more to
what this is. And I think really seeing like the
experimental side in Manila and getting in those spaces where
art can be what you want it. Mm hmm. And that that blew my mind
and like that that very much had impact of my aesthetic an
d
where I kind of see like my kind of career going and so I
can I'm more willing to dabble into things that I previously
would never have done. Mm hmm. So, I think that was that
experimental art scene and like a lot of just like just
surrounding myself with people that were exploring that even
if I convert this very like maybe a conservative background
about like this is how my vision was and I was like okay
maybe it's not. Maybe maybe I've undermined I've like
kind of discounted what art was wh
en I was here in the United
States and then being in a place where the art scene was
so strong. I was like you know what? This is really cool.
Yeah. Like I want to do something. I want to be a part
of this community. Yeah. So there is that that's one aspect
of that. Yeah. For sure. The second is Certainly like my own
personal politics shifted so much and that it was like it's
I think it's one thing if you are like studying theory of
like socialism and things of that nature and have like
academic
conversations. It's another to see like like
millions of people be impacted by the evils of like
neuroliberalism and capitalism like in your everyday Mm hmm.
You're in like terrible just traffic all the time. You see
the amount of homelessness everywhere and you just see how
people are just trying to survive, right? How forgotten
people are in a lot of ways too. And to see Philippines is
the weirdest place. I've never been to a country that has such
such an economic disparity. Like I would be I
would hang
out with like you know kids that grew up rich like that
families had millions of dollars, owned some of the most
like well-known companies in the country and then the next
day I'm at some like rally with like children that own nothing
and they've been living in this shack for their whole life. So
yeah that's I mean that's always devastating. That first
year. Yeah. And but what hurt the most for me is when I
realized that like I had I had gone I had reached this level
empathetic burno
ut where it was at the point where I had gotten
used to it. Mm. And that was like oh **** Yeah. And when
when you reach that you're like you need to take a step back
from it. I feel like and I think that's that's also one
reason why I feel like a lot of but I I but I guess did you get
did you get did you get used to it or did you sense that some
part of you was numb to it? Cuz I guess I'm just like that
distinction to me is important because I'm like getting used
to it to me is it to me seems li
ke a reality that so many
people have to face and it's like in that situation in that
context that was something a face but to me being numb to it
means that I don't know it didn't have the effect on you
over time that you feel like it should've. Yeah I think it was
like there was a point where I was used to it but then got to
a point where I was getting numb to it. I was like this is
this is bad. Right? And I think a lot of it also had to do with
a lot of my work wasn't really kind of centered
on a lot of
these people where it I just didn't see a lot of the impact
of my work when I was there. Right? And I felt maybe
uninspired unmotivated to create like more work around
that and I was you know it was also it it was also more so
because I was incredibly broke for a good like half of my time
living there. Yeah. Where you know there were times where I'm
like okay am I going to be able to pay next month's next am I
going to be able to pay next month's rent? But I I guess
also you don't ye
ah. But maybe we should just be hella
transparent but like what is broke living there in the
Philippines mean? Cuz I feel like people here might listen
be like they're like oh I have 5dollars in my bank account. I
don't know. I'm I'm just like I I really want you to be real
about that because I feel like that's something people are
like oh you're broke. For me it was like I was living 8, 000
miles away and there was a point where I'm like oh I have
like $50 to my name. Mhm. And like my rent is l
ike 250 and
then like my landlord's like hey you didn't pay last month's
rent. But I was like yeah I have some something coming in
but it hasn't come like out yet. Like they haven't sent me
the check but I'm swear I'll be able to pay it back. They're
like okay we want you out. Like next month and I'm like how am
I learned my life in the negative? Right. And like I had
I had some credit card debt when I was out there and you're
like what do I do with this? Like I don't know. I don't know
and like
in those moments of like survival like you're just
like I can really only think about myself which is really
unfortunate because I don't want to be I didn't want to be
in that situation. Yeah. In this scenario. And certainly
there's a lot of stresses with that. But certainly there was
also a lot of lessons I learned. Right? And mean like
being broke and poor makes you realize okay I don't want to be
met again. Mhm. How can I like maintain this like resiliency.
How can I maintain this resiliency
and like continuing
to flourish economically. While still maintaining my values and
morals. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard there and you see it in
the people. You're like how can I care about other people if I
can if I'm barely getting by. Yeah. Honestly I I never
thought of it in this way but you just said reminds me of of
just whenever me or my mom goes to Jamaica and she says I don't
know she says it all the time and she said it to me recently
she was like when you're so desperate it it changes y
ou
like it changes people like it makes them only look out for
themselves they only see what they can get from people and
I'm sure there's like a spectrum of that but I never
really connected that until now Thank you so much for listening
to part one of this month's episode. Stay tuned anywhere
that you listen to podcast to listen to part two to hear Eli
Hiller interview me. Once again you can support this podcast by
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g a quick review. All of these
things make it easier for other people to find The Creative
Hour Podcast and it's an easy way to support a black
podcaster. Music in this episode is by Sam Holman Smith.
To learn more about The Creative Hour Podcast check out
The Creative Hour Podcast. com. Thank you.
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