How to Outsmart A Narcissist

like not thinking rationally this is a person who is not looking to come to a regular solution no this is a person who's looking to take you down this is a person who was willing to take themselves down to take you down I didn't know that narcissist could be women I just knew that the experience for me was extremely traumatic extremely painful no matter who you are no matter where you are no matter what station you are in life narcissist can get your hooks into you because they don't seek out th

e person who has very little value they seek out the people who have so much value they're opportunists right you know that's what they want hello and welcome to another episode of the Quantum Woman my name is Shamina Taylor and you guys are in for an amazing treat I have the most special guest ever to be our No. 1 first guest on the show and her name is Rebecca Zhang welcome Rebecca hello so happy to be here with you um I want you guys to know who Rebecca is you probably heard me mention her th

roughout some of my podcast and what not Rebecca Zong is one of the the top 1% of attorney attorneys in the nation okay that is huge having been recognized by the US News World Report as a Best Lawyer in America and as a Legal Elite by trend magazine and recognized by her peers and the judiciary as AV Pre permanent rated in family law okay there's a lot of things and this is like all gets into like all the things about her but I want you to know this is that she's got 40 million views on YouTube

and she is the go to expert on YouTube and wherever else on narcissism and I'll tell you a little bit about how I found Rebecca I was on there looking at um different videos about narcissism cause I was also working on breaking a pattern with myself and I saw this lady come through the feed and you know how they said the suggestion to watch later and I just started watching her videos and I'm like oh my gosh my mom needs to watch her because my mom was going through a divorce at the time and Re

becca also being an attorney I mean I just absolutely um resonated what she was saying and I was at a mastermind or an event in September of last year and I remember walking through this where they're having a party and this woman walked by me and I'm like wait a minute you're like the nurses expert I just stopped her in her tracks and I'm like I know you and it's literally been a friendship since then and honestly I have met so many powerful women in this industry and I've got to tell you Rebec

ca is on my top top 5 about women who are in abundance we're really in this to help change the world that she her heart is serving in such a big way and I really feel it'll do your service to listen to this episode definitely go check her out but we're gonna get started so Rebecca um how did you get to become a narcissist expert cause I know it's not in your relationship and I know it was in the in your in your law firm at the time that you were working is where you became very aware of um you k

now what a narcissist is yeah I mean it's not like when I was a kid I was like pretending like Ken was a narcissist when I was playing barbies or something you know it's not like oh this is what I'm gonna do when I'm a when I'm a grown up you know um and honestly even when I was practicing lied and high net worth divorce law for 20 years it it's not even like that word was thrown around all that much until the last couple of years you know I I had another divorce attorney friend and we used to j

oke that our next book was gonna be called my husband is controlling my wife is crazy because that's what they all used to say I mean um it it it wasn't really all that um prominent um of a word until the last couple of years um so it really wasn't until a few years ago I merged my practice with I had a very very high end practice you know the go to practice in that area and I was just really wanted to do other entrepreneurial things I knew was more of an entrepreneur at heart and so I went into

a number of different entrepreneurial endeavors and in one of those endeavors I got involved with somebody in a business partnership who turned out to be a covert narcissist and the person was actually a female and um I didn't know that narcissist could be women I didn't know what a covert narcissist was I just knew that the experience for me was extremely traumatic extremely painful and this was after I had built a massive huge very successful law practice and I'm telling you and I was only in

this relationship for you know a year at the most and it was so awful it it actually brought back feelings of when I had been bullied as a kid and I mean it sent me back to therapy all this stuff that I you know even after I had long thought that I had been on the other side of all of that you know and so I tell people all of this because you know no matter who you are no matter where you are no matter what station you are in life narcissist can get your hooks into you because they don't seek o

ut the person who has very little value they seek out the people who have so much value and you know they they're opportunists right you know that's what they want they don't want the clearance rack they want somebody who has value yes exactly exactly and they're extremely extremely good at what they do and it was extremely extremely traumatic for me and so painful that it sent me down this path of reading and learning and researching and doing all this stuff about narcissism for myself for my o

wn healing and at the time I was still practicing law and so I started going wait a minute I can actually apply this to my cases and so I actually started seeing massive movement all of the sudden in my cases and that was when I was it was like I had discovered penicillin I was like oh my god look at these narcissists actually moving and being motivated to settle and that was when I realized I was actually onto something so there are litigious I found narcissistic every every narcissist that I'v

e ever encountered are in multiple lawsuits it's just well yeah it's in fact interesting that you bring that up because and you know you're an attorney um but one is I just finished my new book uh which is actually in pre order now which people can go to slay the bully.com and check out I love that pre order cause the book is called slay the bully how to negotiate with a narcissist and when and actually Chris Boss wrote the foreword for my book um but um the um here's an interesting statistic th

at I found I knew when I was practicing law that probably 85% of the cases settled and 15% of the cases ended up going to court and you know it was like I could never figure out why 85% of cases settled fifteen percent of the cases go to trial it was like you know almost like clockwork and but then I found out through doing my research that roughly 15% of the population are narcissists and I thought I really don't think that that's an accident that those two numbers happen to line up and here's

why there's something that drives narcissist called narcissistic supply and narcissists are well let me just define a narcissist you know kind of um in late terms a narcissist is a person who feels and I always try to make sure I emphasize the word feel because all people have inherent value but a a narcissist feels like they don't have inherent value they are they feel totally and completely empty inside and because they feel that way they have to try to get all of their sense of value from ext

ernal sources and so there's two different and that they call that narcissistic supply right there's two different forms of narcissistic supply it's diamond level supply which is what I these are my terms diamond level supply which is how they look to the world and that's their best form that's the form that they will protect and defend at any cost at any cost at the cost of their children at the cost of loved ones at the cost of anything how they look to the world is more important to them than

absolutely anything and so this could be prestige it could be money could be power it could be you know whatever it is but how it's how they look to the world and then there's what I call the dark underbelly of narcissistic supply which is not the side that they necessarily show everybody but it is also very very important to them which is controlling people devaluing people manipulating people you know that that building themselves up through pushing other people down so in whatever form that

is could be physical abuse emotional abuse mental abuse whatever it is and so there's those two different layers of narcissistic supply both are very very important to them but when push comes to shove they will let go of the coal level supply if if it means that this diamond level supply is being threatened so in a negotiation what you know my slay methodology which is strategy leverage anticipate you you meaning focusing on you being on the offensive and your mindset you have to build a form o

f leverage or many different forms of leverage such that you're threatening a form of supply that's more important to them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around otherwise you're never going to be out of it because they want to keep both they wanna keep both they're so greedy they're like vultures they're like they're always in starvation mode they're always in scarcity mode so they need it all and and so the the myth the problem is that when most people are negotiating or

most people are dealing with narcissist they're only focusing on they wanna win they're only focusing over here they're forgetting about this and and and and that it that myth is totally wrong so people should go after the diamond supply you need to create leverage leverage you can't you can't actually you can't actually do something with it though because if you do then your leverage is gone if you actually if you actually you know obliterated then your leverage is gone so that's that's really

the dance that you have to do right what would you suggest someone does if they're trying to leverage supply let's see if they're negotiations with a narcissist like what would what would be your No. 2 tactic two tactics that they could use well I mean there's there's a number a number of other things that you can do as well because you always have to keep in mind that they their ego is so so important to them how they look you know so you can also build a strategy around making it seem like th

ey came up with the way to to settle it or they came up with the way to make it you know um so that you know you know so that you look like you lost in some way or something like that or they they you know you wanted something so badly that you didn't even want at all and they they they took it from you you know so you have to kind of play this game with them or you know I I do I I was there's another um kind of strategy I call it fluff for favor vomit later which is kind of you where you fluff

up their ego in order to get something that you want and then you know you vomit later right because who really cares so like there's a whole bunch of different strategies that you can use but you have to understand this is what you're dealing with and you have to take your ego out of it so to negotiate with a narcissist you've got to be basically smarter and realize what you're negotiating with and like but did take your emotions out of the situation so that you can you know be more tactical is

what you're saying how much strategies in order to deal with cause you're like basically and like children right we're dealing with like their emotional levels like what but an 8 sometimes 8 years old what you're dealing with narcissist right is that usually or do you know what the the level is I mean you're not dealing with a grown person here you're dealing with someone who's behaving like a child right correct and in fact I know you do a lot with emotional mastery and that sort of thing whic

h is um I'm really glad that you brought this up because it it is somewhere in that range and um you know I actually saw somewhere where it was a neuroscientist that talked about how emotional master is actually the most important skill that any human being could ever have which I thought was really really interesting which I think is true but um in my research I found that what happened with narcissist is that during their childhood they were exposed to trauma on a regular basis and what happen

s with narcissist is that what was all humans is that when we are exposed to trauma our brains dump chemicals into our bodies so that we can fight or or or or flight right and so it's cortisol it's up in Afrin it's adrenaline or whatever it is and then if that happens on a regular basis it can cause damage to the brain it can actually cause arrested development in the limbic system part of the brain right and which is which is what you know where the emotions are housed and so what happens with

narcissist then is that they do get stuck and that whatever age it was that they were and so then as they grow older yes the neocortex you know the other part of the brain continues to develop but when they're presented with stimuli that causes them to feel like they are in that survival mode again and it could be any kind of stimuli it could be you know an eye roll it could be a tone it could be nothing that you you perceive to be you know some kind of something but to them it's a something any

perceived slight then that Olympic system part of their brain kicks in and takes back over and it's called splitting I mean they literally it are in that part of their their brain again and that's it that's it and sometimes it's rage that takes over at that point yeah um and that's what you're dealing with and so when you're negotiating with somebody who is in that state you're you're not two regular reasonable people who are sitting across from each other having a conversation this is a person

who is not looking to come to a regular solution no this is a person who's looking to take you down this is a person who is willing to take themselves down to take you down I mean they're they're they're like not thinking rationally no resolution is not one of their top things like saying I'm sorry moving on from it they just want you to be in suffering like you know let's how do you put you into basically put them here and put you like put you them higher than you so they have that like you kn

ow that the hierarchy that control what would you say is if somebody was going through a negotiation with a narcissist like what can they do to for their own selves like how do they stick his it's gotta be emotionally draining I mean for your clients and people you've worked with what is the best um self care what can they do to protect themselves as process without cause they're getting basically retraumatized of many times and many of them probably haven't gone and done the deep work yet becau

se they're in the they're in the moment of actually breaking free from them from you know they say it was a divorce or what not or how you're breaking free from that relationship how do they take care of themselves so they can stay on the right track or they don't feel like it's them and they keep the process going yeah good questions good questions I mean it doesn't even have to be a divorce it could be you know like with me it was a business partnership and I'm telling you even with me in my b

usiness partnership it was I I mean I was in a different CD I wasn't like you know it wasn't even you know you know some people it's a work situation to me it's a family situation it's not even a negotiation but it's you know some of family members something like that so I say step one don't run step 2 make a U turn step 3 break free because you are literally turning it the I call it like turning a ship around or something you know you're you're literally trying to turn and make a U turn so that

you can like start to feel like you're on the offensive for a change instead of the defensive constantly and then you can start to finally start speaking to them and start feeling like you have some power it's like a power switch in fact like one of my new programs is called Power Switch and um and then start to finally feel like you can break free but I I call it I call it step 1 don't run step 2 make a U turn because I want people to understand like you weren't conditioned overnight and it's

not gonna take you know you can't just turn it around overnight it's baby steps so in that first step that first step you just wanna start to create some boundaries and and just start to maybe maybe that first boundary is just to say I'm not gonna be spoken to like that you know just just just to even just that just to say to yourself I'm gonna you know create a boundary of this way of speaking to me does not work for me and be okay with that you know or or get up and walk out of the room if if

if a person is speaking to you disrespectfully and and let that be your first step because that's okay you know if that's okay if that's your first step you know and and and forgiving yourself for decisions that you made when you were in survival mode because the past is the past and you can only start from where you are now I mean wherever you are is the jumping off point I mean you cannot look back you can only look forward so that's the first step and then getting education and learning that

it is not you you know one of my favorite books is the 4 agreements I absolutely love that book it is such an easy read you mean you can read it in an afternoon and it's 4 agreements that you make with yourself and one of the agreements is never to take anything personally because the way people treat other people is directly related to the way they feel about themselves and if people feel good about themselves and they treat people well and if people feel bad about themselves and they treat peo

ple poorly and you know so you know hurt people hurt people and narcissist bleed out all over the other people because they treat because they feel like crap about themselves and so you cannot take it personally how they have treated you it's because they just don't like themselves they hate themselves inside you know they can sit around and say they love themselves and they're so great and all that it's because they're deeply fearful people it matters they're more afraid of you than you are of

them absolutely why would you think that I mean those are great great steps to take I mean education is huge I mean just go binge on on Rebecca stuff on YouTube and there's other amazing people in there too and read your book but what why do you think people are so stuck in such a cycle for so long with them you hear people that are I mean they did they know they need to leave or they know this relationships not serving them they know that they're they're they're not using their voice why do you

think I mean I have my own theories but why do you think people stay so long and they know they need to leave so there's something called a trauma bond yeah and actually there's a physiological connection in in a trauma bond there's a study done by a guy named Robert Sapalski who is a psychologist out of Stanford University and he did a study on monkeys and these study these monkeys were given a reward every time they did something good and he then studied the dopamine levels in their brain and

it literally didn't even measure and then they were given a reward just intermittently if they did something good and you know they didn't know when they were gonna get this um uh reward and when that happened just the anticipation just like oh I might I might get it I might get it cause the dopamine levels in their brain to rise to the level of cocaine so they actually became physiologically addicted addiction to I might get it they needed it they needed that hit it was that push pull push pul

l push pull and that's what happens when you're in a relationship with a narcissist because they push you all the way to the brink like you cannot take one more minute of their emotional abuse and you're out the door and then they suck you back in and oh I can't live without you you know how could you do this to me I you know and and the guilt and and all of that and then you're sucked back in and and and and it's that hot cold hot cold hot cold and and you're you're literally physiological phys

iologically addicted and and and they pick people who have you know their own core wounds as well absolutely like I you hit both things as I'm glad that you guys are if you're listening to my podcast I've said this before it's the trauma bonding and it's the addiction and we get addicted to that cycle of getting that hit from them and we don't realize like this is why a lot of women go after the bad boys or they go for the ones that are you know the attachment issues where they're avoidant and y

ou'll see yourself being in that cycle cause your own trauma is being attracted to the situation so if you can get to the root of it and get out of the cycle but it's all comes with a choice right whether or not you wanna you wanna end what what's happening um this is amazing but I wanna find about more about Rebecca Rebecca is a wealth of knowledge and she's amazing but there's another side to Rebecca that I think you guys all need to see and so maybe sometimes she only reserves it for um her f

riends or people on her inner circle but um she's got such a big heart and she really cares now Rebecca um what what do you feel like your big you know imprint that you wanna leave in the world I know this is like a big question but like I always talk to myself about this all the time if I left the earth tomorrow like what is my legacy gonna be left behind and that's how I live every day to be honest with you um to make sure you know as Wayne Dire says don't let the music die in you but when you

see the work that you're doing or what it could be even bigger than what this is but what what what does that look like for you hmm oh gosh good question I mean obviously I hope it's my children and my grandchildren doing well and happy and um but on you know bigger than that I have created a nonprofit with Lindsay Snyder and uh who is the uh owner of in and out and Burger and she and I have a vision to provide legal aid for people who um need it and our model is different than other people's y

ou know most legal aid um you know around you know systems around the country it's a belea good system and and you know just so just to give a little bit of background for people who don't understand how legal aid works I mean but most people don't realize this but the Constitution provides that you get a lawyer appointed to you in this country if you are a criminal and that is it you know so if you're a criminal you get a lawyer anybody else you're on your own so there is a massive justice gap

in this country because the majority of the people in this country you know make I don't know what the average you know salary is in this country or that you know average people what they make you know 35,000 I I don't know what it is but you know it's not a whole heck of a lot and you know the average savings in this country I don't know what it is 25 I'm not sure but the average attorney charges three four 5 hundred dollars an hour so it's a hell of a lot and then you know the average retainer

five grand I don't I don't know but um it's there's a massive disparity there and then you know so for people who are in dire need of of things for basic human rights like keeping their children keeping their homes veterans rights human trafficking things like that um immigration you know I mean they're not there's no there's no hope for them that's it they they they they don't get the help and you know I'm not talking about corporate stuff or whatever I'm talking about basic human rights they

don't get an attorney unless they try to go to legal aid now here's what legal aid does legal aid only takes certain types of cases there are legal aid attorneys who get who have hundreds of cases and they're way underpaid way underpaid so what our model is is more like a make a wish type of a model and so what we're doing is pairing donors with paid attorneys and actual cases so that people can actually get real help from paid attorneys and so like for example I have a donor right now whose dau

ghter committed suicide because she lost her children to a narcissist in a custody matter um this couple would like to donate funds to somebody who's in a custody battle with a narcissist and so we are you know we're still in the process of hiring an executive director in fact when I get off with you that's I'm gonna be doing another interview another set of interviews for an executive director but once I get that person on board and you know we get up and running that's what we're gonna be doin

g we're gonna be pairing donors with attorneys and cases so that people can get real help it's a completely different model um so that people can get actual legal aid in this country I love this I'm so glad I asked I didn't know all of this this is amazing this is the side of Rebecca I just my love what she does I used to work for legal aid when I was in law school too so I know how it is I mean people I mean just the income alone and you know just could kind of you know um um disqualify people

they're not making that much and you know and it's just and it's it's amazing that you're doing that that to me is beautiful legacy work like just because every what I mean I know for you I can't speak for you but I'm sure you know why I went to law school too is to you know to give people a voice and to to stand up cause you know I had a bigger voice than others and I'm sure you too so you're helping others have their voice and the Protection at the same time to um have their rights so amazing

um this has been absolutely amazing Rebecca I'm gonna have to be back again cause I really really enjoy their conversations and I wanna ask you though um cause we talked about this earlier what book do you feel like um changed your life cause you are welcome knowledge oh gosh um there are so many I know I see them behind you right now I'm a book I love books I live I buy books every week I buy books I'm a Booker yeah I mean I'm gonna say a Woman's Worth by Marianne Williamson that's a good one t

hat's a great book yeah yeah I read that book when I was about thirty and I absolutely love that book I mean Mary and Williamson is amazing and I I I gave that book to both of my daughters and I just think that that was really powerful especially if you're a woman why what was the No. 1 take away from it um just how powerful we are as women and she referred to women as goddesses and how it was especially because um I think you know as a woman I felt like I grew physically from 0 to 20 and then s

o much from 20 to 30 and just you know finding my power and finding my footing and who I was and you know I I got divorced around that time and I went back to law school around that time and I'd had three kids by the time I mean I had three kids I got married at 19 I had three kids by the time I was 22 I got divorced I went back to law school as a single mom and I met my husband in law school we've been married now for 22 maybe 23 years we have a fourth I mean we have one together but it's my fo

urth and so you know it was just so powerful for me to read that book and you know I I remember one line in there where she talked about you know if people are talking about you behind your back or something just turn around and smile and say to yourself I haven't even started yet ah I love give me chills and on that note I feel like that is a great way to wrap this up and being that this is the Quantum Woman podcast we are all about awakening that inner goddess that inner that ass that inner yo

u know you that can have and do and be everything and Rebecca does reflect that of being you know in her and unlocking her Quantum Woman and I'm so glad she came here to share what you know one woman is doing to change many lives if anything when you look at Rebecca you'll see her story and she just took action and she took action she wanted to make a change and she's one woman right now but she's changing thousands if not millions of lies at 40 40 million views and um I encourage you guys to go

and check her out cause she's amazing Rebecca let everybody know um how they can get in contact with you and reach you and what's something they should definitely um consume of yours hmm thank you uh well definitely pre order my book at sleigh the bully.com I if you pre order it you actually get access to the entire manuscript early and you got all kinds of really cool bonuses as well including a whole program and all kinds of really cool things like $400 worth of bonuses and if you go to win m

y negotiation.com you get access to a a free e book by the way um it's it's 15 pages it's my crush my negotiation prep worksheet literally I think close to 100,000 people have downloaded that yeah it's it's an amazing amazing ebook and I've had so many people win their negotiations just on that alone um so definitely grab that and my YouTube channel is YouTube com Rebecca Zong Esq and my Instagram is at Rebecca Zong my website is Rebecca Zong com so my gosh thank you for coming this was amazing

and like I Rebecca set the bar so high and no no pine there um and um having haha of having guests on the two lawyers over here right and um but I mean I track powerhouses I have friends that are powerhouses this is just how we are you know and when you you get the ability to be around a woman who's a game changer and who is in such abundance like Rebecca is I can't say this enough she's done her work cause you'll see someone who's in victimhood which is a scarcity Rebecca is a complete opposite

of that cause she is your will hype you up and um I really feel like you guys need to go all follow her get what she said do the things and um thank you Rebecca again for for coming on we really appreciate you thank you I didn't know what a covert narcissist was