from been there got out and tonight's guests we're welcoming back our good friend Rebecca Ishida she's a licensed marriage and family therapist among other things I think she also specializes in addiction and um several things that she'll talk about but she's been on here before and uh she always promises to be a very energetic interviewee so let me see if she see how she is okay Rebecca I see you I'm sure that this is gonna work and I haven't seen Rebecca in a little while so um this should be
fun hi Hi how are you how are you so good it's been too long I cannot believe this I know and before we even start I know we missed each other last year but we're going to be in LA in July so I saw and I need to come what is that what day is it I need to write everything down it's going to be it's gonna be July 20th through 23rd but I'll get the details later so yes yes and I'd like to see you and maybe also just we can do something social too yeah of course yeah we're not all about business eve
n though that's all we talk about we're friends I was just saying I want to come to the book thing but I also want to like see you socially yes yes we will definitely do we will not miss each other we will exchange contact information ahead of time yes awesome awesome yay I'm so glad I'm so glad yeah yeah well Rebecca um I was telling one of our clients earlier that we were doing an Instagram live she goes oh oh great she's one of my favorites I can't miss this one oh God so if not you for her f
or everyone else I was like I know this is going to be great and um the client that I was talking to when I told her the topic she said oh good that's my topic I was like uh actually there were several people that said that they want to talk about this topic before we even say what the topic is yes why don't you introduce yourself for all the people who don't already know who you are okay I'm Rebecca Ishida I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in Los Angeles I specialize in narcissistic
abuse and um I work a lot with trauma and childhood trauma and on EMDR trained and I'm also getting certified in Sex Therapy so that's uh I don't know if you knew that but yeah I did I was like I know it's something with sex but I'm not sure what it is yes yes so that's been a really um a fun process so far and I'm looking forward to it because I do so much couples work that it really you know sex comes up a lot of course in um in therapy and uh it's I really enjoy it it's it's really great yeah
it's fine okay so um and you forgot to mention your side gig as a comedian that's right okay yes and I also do stand-up comedy so I'm gonna be at The Comedy Store when is it uh oh my gosh June 9th June 9th I'll be at the comedy store okay so um tonight we're going to talk about something that's not very funny though I'm sure we'll probably find some humor in it even though it's awful and that is betrayal trauma but specifically in terms of friendship and especially in terms of these awful trans
ition times when you think these are my people and then they're not so why don't you talk a little bit about what what is betrayal trauma so betrayal trauma is basically being um being injured or wounded in an emotional way uh by by really by people that you trust that's the thing they're not people that are enemies right these are people that you emotionally count on that are going to be there for you and um in the in the way that we're talking about it what we might see are people that basical
ly you know when you get a divorce they they choose sides and so you're very so you're surprised especially if you're going through a traumatic relationship and you're going through narcissistic abuse is when you see someone who you felt like was your friend or had your back take the side of your essentially your abuser so it's incredibly painful um it it can actually make you on sometimes even doubt your own experience which we see happen as well so you know we get gaslighted in our relationshi
p but then we also experience gaslighting with friends or we flying monkeys enablers whatever we want to call that them and it's incredibly painful and it's really hard to um because we need our friends when we're going through these things you know um I imagine you needed your friend I know I needed friends I felt so devastated when I was going through my divorce and also in breakups from narcissists because yes I've been with more than one and so you know you lean on your friends for that supp
ort and when they betray you it's it's like another Betrayal on top of it right it's so it's like you know it's we depend on these people for our emotional survival and then they let us down it's incredibly painful I'm thinking when you say people take sides what we see a lot of is people who say even like your closest friends you know what I don't wanna I don't wanna take sides I I wanna I wanna stay out of the conflict and not get involved but to me that's kind of taking aside what do you thin
k about that I definitely think that's that is true um I think that um because I think what it ties into is this idea that we think about sorry my dog goes crazy and some of those by um what we think of oftentimes in relationship is this idea that um things are 50 50. it takes two to tango all these sort of things that do not apply to abusive relationships so when somebody then does that does that as a friend and says well I don't want to take sides because you know there are two sides to every
story and things like that then you you do feel like it is not just even a lack of support it is like taking a side because it's like the they um they don't get it right and so so many people don't and I think that's why people like you and I go into what we do for work is because if you haven't experienced this kind of abuse you often don't get it at all and you don't understand um and and so we get what that is like so it can feel like like a betrayal because and that they are taking that side
because it's like no hands off you know I I uh don't want to say anything or or they've been so nice to me I don't see that side man which you often hear a lot of but basically that is what happens with people like this because they know how to compartmentalize right that's it they don't and so you know you start to you real what what you end up seeing or seeing in your friends is how they are duped by The Narcissist in the same way that you were because you they show that good side to other pe
ople and so people cannot believe wait a second that did they really do that could they really you know that so it's an incredibly painful process and you can feel so alone and isolated yeah I'm thinking back to um you know I it took me about two years from the moment I knew the relationship was over to actually tell my family there were three friends that I confided in and um they didn't have any experience with this I didn't know what I was dealing with but I remember with a a group of friends
that I'd had since our my oldest child was born he's 23. um when I told one of them who is not the most sensitive emotionally sensitive person anyway so I shouldn't have been surprised but we had we had done a lot of things as the couples together when the kids were little and um gone to each other's houses for dinners and things and the first thing she said was I can't believe I'm never gonna see him again I can't believe we're not and I was like you saw in your friend I mean not that they I'm
not saying they are one but I'm just saying but that became all about them I I I didn't I didn't even know what to say like do you want me to comfort you like like did you hear what I did like I just told you why we're getting a divorce and this is the first thing out of your mouth and I just felt like I can't I can't talk to people about this because this is if I get more reactions like this I'm gonna feel terrible I'm just gonna feel so isolated and I'm gonna feel like nobody's gonna want to
spend time with me because I was such a part of a couple so if I'm not a couple right and that's how she saw says that unit like why I'm what do I have I'm so curious too why why did it take you two years I'm that I'm curious about that okay so that's a good question um so you know we Rebecca you and I have done interviews before about lying by Omission yes so and that you're the one who taught me that and that was why I instantly connected with you because I was like this is my life that you na
med it so my ex had a double life and when I started discovering things two years before we I actually got him out it was like this is so astonishing let me try to save it I don't want to tell anybody like like family because if there's a way to change it or a way to fix it they're never going to forgive him even though I I can because of the details of the situation and I also thought I don't want to I'd seen other people act quickly with kids and make mistakes with divorcing and so I thought I
need to really plan my exit carefully because I was very rooted in my community my kids are really rooted my job everything so it was like I can't just flea um I need to be very stealthy about it so I'm only going to tell a couple of people and some of them one of them was um an ex addict and so she was very understanding towards him and she kept saying you know give him more chances the other was like trying to support me another one was like I don't even know what to do with this but I though
t I don't want to tell family because family is it'll be probably a lot longer than these these friendships I just I was trying to do everything as right as I could so I took my time and um did a lot of growing up in the process too yeah because the reason he also kept me in the relationship was um if if you divorced me like you're going to be responsible for destroying your family so that that that kept me in it for a while and I'm like you know the hope is what destroys you yes I think also th
ere's a bit of a setup that they do during the relationship too right where they isolate you to such a degree um and you become quiet about what's going on because you don't want people to think badly of them and then you also sort of are trying to figure out yourself what the hell's even going on so I think once you're out of the relationship too sometimes if you haven't even talked about it very much then people are also like sort of sit there going what why didn't you say anything you know th
at kind of oh all the time all the time like they couldn't have done anything about it but you know when you're still in it you you cannot be like the denial and everything else you can't deal with it and it's so strong right relationships are so not black and white right you're always you know you could have the worst narcissist ever the worst toxic relationship but I'm gonna bet with every one of those there's something that you like about it you know so there's always that thing that keeps yo
u in it it's never it's typically never all bad you know um and even if it does get to the point of being all bad you already have the stuff that was good peppered throughout which helps with your cognitive dissonance it's like oh but that thing was good before or they were better before and it kind of pulls you back in and a lot of that good is what your friends have seen you know when he did that or he seemed like such a good dad and he you know he was so nice to us or he cooked us great meals
and you know and and they they don't yeah because I had friends do the same with one of my exes they're like oh really liked him oh I'll be able to go out together anymore and it's like see really are you kidding me it just felt so I just felt I felt so devastated by that lack of support it was very yeah and that's the thing and I think also because there's so much shame associated with it like a lot of our people and us we are very successful in a number of other areas of our lives and so to c
onfess that this has been going on and they're like how could you have let that go on you of all people like you're a lawyer you're so smart and like how could you been basically like how could you have been so stupid and weak yeah I mean I was a therapist I was a therapist during my whole you know marriage you know what I mean was it is that right yeah like that I was studying and then I was licensed and I was actually working in the field of compulsive sexual behave Behavior right and that was
n't his thing he was like he was always like too stoned to probably have sex with other people is what I think is the only reason [Laughter] he gets lazy um so I don't think that was the thing that was going on but um but the the thing that I like realized being in the field of compulsive sexual behavior is the intersection of narcissism and compulsive sexual behavior and how much it is oftentimes hand in hand um you know or what people would call sexual narcissism and you see that so much and s
o it was really a weird thing for me to be in a relationship where that was going on not the sex part but the narcissism and the emotional abuse and the verbal abuse and all of that and then here I am in this running these groups for people who are you know trying to get better but you know but regardless like it just felt like such like I'm like a mind [ __ ] you know it was like what is happening like you know but but still you know we're human and it's very different being objective and subje
ctive yeah and that's the thing with friends too is Friends see you a certain way and then to come to certain friends and say this this is going on they they don't believe it they don't want to believe it right you know talk about like the cognitive dissonance I'm thinking I shouldn't get into all the court stuff but it's it's so parallel like people when they hear you're in court for stuff they cannot understand legal they can't understand that a justice system could be so unfair and so similar
ly in these relationships when you've been with someone for a long time that's presented very well right to the public they're just like that that person can't be that bad it can't be because I haven't seen it you know you were with this person for so long A friend of mine who I went to dinner with last night um he used to drive me crazy he would say your husband he loved you he I know he or even during the time of his bed he's like he loves you so much he loves your kids oh he was such a good f
ather because your son got lost in the library sometime and I remember he seemed like he cared so much I'm like look at look at what's happened in the past nine years like he didn't I don't know what he was doing but that's that's not love that was presenting a certain way for you all to believe that but but somebody who's behaved this way for the past nine years like it's not like they suddenly love their kids are they they always love their kids and they suddenly just stop loving them right th
at's not how how love works right yes you can't like my friend cannot fathom and also there's ego involved with with certain friends where they're like I'm because my particular friend he's like I'm such a good judge of character right I can't I can't be wrong I thought he really really cared yeah I believe you but I kind of I'm not sure that you could be telling the truth about it all because How could somebody be like that and the big thing Rebecca I don't know if people have said this to you
is like how could someone not love their kids yo yeah that's not possible yeah that's a big one for me that like what you just said I hit a nerve because you know my ex-husband hasn't seen um his kids for almost seven years hasn't seen them right yeah so you know it is mind-blowing you think you know God how I do I do say to myself sometimes like wow like how did I how did I choose someone like I mean I do that I do ask myself that you know I chose and you know what you see at the beginning of t
he relationship I think this goes for toxic relationships and healthy relationships alike or healthy-ish relationships because I don't know I don't know how to healthy relationships let's be honest I mean you know uh uh I'm just in reality about that I think it's very it should be simple it's not right but um is that what you see at the beginning of a relationship that is concerning I wouldn't say red flag necessarily but like oh that's kind of like huh those are the things that oftentimes will
be the the ending of the relationship right so you know in the beginning for me it was like my my ex-husband he drank too much you know he um had like a lot of issues around money and he had an anger problem and those were all the things that ended the relationship they were just the volume just was way up at that point you know I'm an alcoholic and um I you know squandered all this money and um and then also like I'm rageful and abusive so you know everything was just ramped up and if there's n
ot intervention along the way um or self-awareness or accountability that person isn't going to get better they're just you know it's not gonna happen yeah yeah that's so interesting what you said about the things at the beginning of the relationship that are like kind of some sort of it doesn't feel right is what ends a relationship because I was thinking in mind I mean there were several things but computer and secrecy secrecy surrounding the internet it was like yeah Lisa you don't understand
technology that's my job I need to go online for people that understand me and then at the end it was like oh you had a whole other thing going on and just a little dabbling here and there it was like whole other right yeah no and I think what happens to the friends I don't know if you experienced this but it's not only like the doubt that they have that this person could have done these things but then it goes to doubting you and saying exactly that's the trauma part that's the Betrayal is lik
e you've been one of my best friends for years and how could you yeah right like someone that you've confided in exactly and that your friends start to doubt you and maybe your character or start to wonder well you know I don't really see that in in him so maybe Rebecca's got something that's wrong you know what I mean like I start to doubt you and that feels like so wounding so incredibly painful absolutely absolutely let me ask you about another thing that I noticed in a particular friendship
of mine so I had a very close friend and and um during the those two years she was one of the ones that I confided in and and then during that period and shortly after like maybe the first year or so I felt like she kind of um on some level found satisfaction in my pain because she could be the helper oh so she she was like she could be like the listener actually it's more than one person now that I'm thinking about it like they could be like the helper and like because in a lot of ways I was li
ke this very strong person and then I was kind of broke right at the end of that long-term relationship that was half my life I was like I don't know what's going on you know all this stuff started coming out and so it was like oh Lisa needs help like let's let's take care of her but as I started healing it was almost like they didn't really want me to be happy like they never would have said it I don't think it was conscious but the role of like I need to I need to be there to take care of you
and then when you're happy like uh I don't know what to do with myself anymore right and I think when that happens too I think what it what what it would say signal to me or signal to me when things like that kind of kind of happened is stuff that was maybe going on in our friendship to even begin with right maybe like maybe that friend for instance had a thing about codependency or song you got it you hit the nail net that was it like that own relationship that wasn't good and so that was like
we could compare and but there were things better and then then I started moving onwarded upward and it was like oh we're not both in the hole yes and and people and sometimes it is it's like misery loves company you know like sometimes people you know that's one thing that I I don't like love that I see a lot of like you can see a lot with women which is we really should be lifting each other up and and in inspiring each other and and having each other's back and I don't think that happens enou
gh in the world it just doesn't you know I mean of course I'm saying something very strictly gender right now but I I want to include all a very inclusive of gender but when I'm thinking about this particular thing when I think of like the patriarchy and you know I just I sometimes don't feel like we have you know it's sometimes it's hard for people or what certain women to like really like feel like good for you and like go you know I feel like we need more of that you know and I think that som
etimes we we uh we tend to the sit oh you're sick you're wounded let me take care of you and we can see that a lot of times with abusive people or people that are toxic they like when you're down because they're empowered exactly exactly it's almost like it's a kind confidence issue where there's so many people who have such low confidence that when somebody else is achieving or happy in something there's Envy yes and and so think about like there being like less for you like it doesn't like if
I'm doing really well it doesn't mean you can't do really well it's like we can both do well you know but I think that that's you know and I don't know where you know that could also come from an idea of just like um the idea of like they're being like like love or success it's like a pie and people get a sliver of it or a piece of it and then there's less for you but it's Limitless right we can have Limitless love we can I don't really believe in the unconditional love thing though just so you
know um no me neither pets right I don't I don't not think there should be unconditional love with romantic Partners I don't think there should be I think if you're treating me like [ __ ] I don't think I think you can look you can love someone and still not be with them right but love isn't enough either right but no I totally agree yeah I I totally agree and I think um our society romanticizes unconditional love and that keeps people in these terrible situations sometimes right and I mean I th
ink that that's a lot of what I think is also put out there in in the world is this idea and look I think like those quick fixes or the ideas of like oh you know get yourself healthy have good friends and do all this and and you know fix your attachment style and all that and guess what you're gonna attract the right person into your life I think that's [ __ ] I really do I mean look there are a lot of toxic people out there you should be the best person you can be you should be like that and be
the healthiest person you can be and hopefully but you align with someone who is also healthy and working on themselves and evolving but it doesn't always happen I don't think that's that I don't think that [ __ ] sells but that's true I mean I it's like it's like there are a lot of creators that are like oh notice your trauma blah blah and in this one weekend you know you're gonna be good that's also not true I mean working on yourself and and recovering it's an ongoing process you know it tak
es a long time I mean one of the things we see which I'm sure you do as well is like even when people get out of the relationship their ex's voice stays in their head yes that's how it is emotional abuse so you can have I mean I'm happily in my relationship with Christmas my ex voice is still in my head yeah even for years there's things there's issues that I'm gonna have to deal with maybe forever maybe it's not just because of my ex maybe it's because of my childhood but it's not like everythi
ng is all better when you meet someone else right yes you know there's there's things that people work on their whole lives or have to deal with their whole lives yes yes and and um somebody said here about how do I do oh yeah being in love doesn't mean bearing pain yeah definitely like that you know I mean I think there is an idea and you can see this all across like with movies and everything this idea of like that you know like the struggle and you know what you know it's like it shouldn't be
that way I mean like you know intensity doesn't intensity doesn't equal love right intense you know I think that a lot of times in intensity it can also to be toxic you know so it does yeah that's like a loving a love thing yeah but I do think that when you have this betrayal trauma With Friends The Hope is that you can also do the same thing with them that you've done with x's if someone is truly betrayed you they need you need to go up no contact with them too and that's really hard to someti
mes that the no content maybe it's your family maybe it's a best friend for 17 years um you know or maybe you take space like here you know what if you want to get where I'm coming from go read psychopath free and check it later you know what I mean make a suggestion if they don't want to do it they want to do it but I think part of this is also the process of learning how to let go of people is very important and that's I think a very important thing in this recovery is is understanding that no
t everyone is going to be a forever in your life you know even even friends that you were best friends with from preschool like they may never they may not be a forever person and that's okay yeah it's okay yeah it is really hard like every time a friendship ends for me no matter what and and I don't have like the scorched Earth stuff just just with my ex husband but but things have ended and I always feel like it's a failure you know like when I recognize it's like I'm not getting any any I'm n
ot getting anything from the Friendship anymore this person isn't valuing me or it kind of makes me feel sad whatever it is I still feel like oh I should have tried to keep it forever even though I know in my brain like not but you know what I see a nice little bit of too because I know that I'm sure uh maybe people that are on the live too have experience is like it's that whole sunk cost fallacy we experience it with our ex-partners we also experience it with friends this idea of we've put so
much into something we've invested so deeply in something and maybe it's been time energy love maybe money all these things that the idea of not having that it's like but I've made this investment and so it right and it's a painful thing to also know that that you sometimes have to let those things go that maybe the Investments paid out like the dividends or whatever we call them I'm not really good with finding financially but no we all get it we all get it paid out like you got what you got fr
om it and it's done and that's a very hard thing I think to arrive at together the sunk cost balances yeah oh another new label I I love that I mean that happens too like when I think about like my ex-husband I you know I was married for 16 years we had a house we have kids so when you think about all the things that come with a relationship and the memories right and money and all of that all of those things get stack stack stack that's why when you're further in I think it's sometimes sometime
s it's harder to get out because there are more that you're that that attach you that connect you and and that even if the connection feels shitty by that time it's still like I've invested so much I can't you know and that's what happened with an ex I had I don't even know if I told you about him oh my god well this is crazy story I mean I don't know what these people are gonna think about me when I tell you this but uh now we love your stories Rebecca all right you're gonna be like Rebecca um
no dating apps whatever it's like yeah that's not how I met my ex-husband but but I've been I've been on you know dating I was on and off dating apps for a decade um uh right now I am dating somebody and he's great um so thankfully oh really yeah so he's great he's not he's British and he's funny the funniest person I've ever met very badly that is okay just pause for a second funny people are amazing laughter I for me I was like this is like with Chris he's really funny and I'm just like this i
s the best gift ever somebody that makes you laugh is so necessary yes I totally think laughter is the best thing but this person um you know wasn't that wasn't that funny but regardless it doesn't matter the point is this got this guy um I met him on Bumble and so you think available right and we um we really liked each other started talking and um then what happened was before we met for our first day he said listen I I gotta be honest with you about something um and at the time I was dating a
couple other people um because that's what you need to do volume date especially if you're anxiously attached you better not put your eggs in one basket so but I liked him the best out of out of the other ones anyway that's funny um so anyway so I so he said I just got to tell you um you know I did I told you I'm separated and that happens a lot like I'm in my 50s so I don't I'm not waiting for someone to have divorce like I don't need that because you know we know it like divorce you can be li
ke separated for years whatever but what he told okay okay now this is where you go Rebecca are you an idiot but anyway no so no remember I have high conflict divorce coach we hear everything we don't blame so okay so he said he's living with her and they were they she was living oh and his mother-in-law lived there so they had so he had a house and the mother-in-law and and the wife lived in the this like guest house and you know he basically was said that she was a narcissist and all that and
like therapists had said it and whatever um fantastic if one day he watches this anyway so um uh so they said they said all this stuff and because I was a therapist and a caretaker I was like oh you know I'm like listen and I was dating it's fine it's you know you're you're done so who cares right well she ended up moving from the back house into the house into the master bedroom and he went into another room which he did they moved she moved out and then she moved back in because the mother bec
ause her mom and her got a fight they got in a fight they got it right so she moved back into the master bedroom which of course once again she took the master bedroom this guy was a wimp but whatever so he so she got and he went somewhere else into the office and they had two kids and I and I um did not feel great about this obviously but it was always it was always like very clear like they were done they were done they were done is what I was told and then about five months and he told the ki
ds he told told her finally because it took him a while there was a sign that I should have gotten out earlier obviously as you can see I should have been like uh let me know when you're not living together um but I didn't do that um one day I said well what if she just walked into the family room he wanted to get back with you I mean I thought that was pretty funny but basically he said she doesn't want to get back with me and I said wrong answer the answer should be I don't want to be with her
so wrong answer and that should have been my exit sign okay I hope I'm teaching anyone else here not to do this don't ever go out with a guy that's living with his wife that's what I learned here uh very expensive lesson but anyway um emotionally expensive um so five months in uh she he told her and what did she do got right to work to just separate us right later yeah calls me hey we're gonna work out our marriage and that was it just like that five months into a relationship where it was like
planning life together and future and all like bye-bye oh that's it in a very actually narcissistic fashion but supposedly he's the one and I met friends and all that so it wasn't like they weren't separated it wasn't that it's not like I was like he was having a double life right I mean it was a little double in that you know he was living there but it was one that I knew of he was living there they were separated I met friends kids knew about me and all that so like that bye so you know and w
hen we talk about like narcissistic abuse by proxy that's what I kind of see it as I she she sort of manipulated him and then through through him I was like discarded do you see what I'm saying yeah and and then that that Dave was like she put up married on her Facebook and then you know it was like she she made sure to like say he's mine even though she didn't even want him right right effectively the whole thing what a learning experience that was I this whole story I haven't been like how cou
ld you Rebecca not at all I mean oh yeah anybody would no no it's not sweet it's like I could see myself in the same situation and remember like at the beginning we don't think that people would lie to us we want to believe them and trust them and think they're doing the right thing and so it's like we're right on the same page he's he you know we know how expensive divorce is people sometimes stay in the home together they are separate like why wouldn't you why would you ever assume that he's s
till with his wife especially if the kids knew he met friends like I wasn't with her until he found out about then it was like she they had a four hour conversation and then that was it he was like she apologized isn't that nice of her so you know like we talk about hoovering like you know and I was like wow you're a lot sicker and more broken than I ever thought because I know if I had somebody at the end of my marriage was like I'm here I'm I I you know want to be with you I mean I would have
been that would have made it much easier for me to leave but I but it's interesting that somebody decides to choose that and then actually thinks it's going to be better or different you know yeah so good yeah well that you know but yeah let's let's see what happens with that and it's a good experience honestly it's a good experience for um for me to have had I mean very painful but it's a it's a good one because it's um it taught me some very like difficult lessons but you know I'm in a better
place now so good good good um so I was thinking like we have one person in particular I wanted to ask you what you think about their situation so they had like a very like a like a best friend that they met you know they through the kids I think and became very very close and this was one of if any maybe just the one or maybe two people that she confided in about what was going on in the marriage and the divorce like deep deep confidences and then after the split happened the best friend became
really close with her ex-husband and then now he's hanging out with her and her family and so the kids are friends and how do you navigate something like that when the kids are friends but they were friends because the moms were friends but now the friend is friends with the dad and it's like he's like her ex has taken her place in that family like how does somebody deal with that because the kids are still friends yeah that's devastating I have a I I know of something very similar to that um b
ut the person actually is like like together with them romantically um oh that's a whole other thing too yeah no so that that's not the case here it's not a romantic thing no not romantic it's almost like the the female best friend got kicked out and now the ex her ex-husband is close with the her old female best friend and the best friend's husband and the kids are friends I can't I can't wonder I mean is that best friend married the best friend is married to a guy and the guy is friends with b
oth of them oh God I need to draw a diagram yeah so like she was close to the wife and now her ex-husband is close to the wife and the wife's husband it's almost like they believe his story now and she's just like I can't believe like the devastation of like I confided everything to this woman yes and now not only did she just not pick sides but she chose my ex who she knew all this stuff for a couple of years what was happening like she's the one person and now this and we're still kind of tied
together because the kids are friends so the birthday parties and then you know because there's a custody thing like you can't just not take the kids to the birthday party and then you know that is horrible because I mean look it's another like of course one absolute betrayal trauma but it's also now like this on it's an ongoing it's like a it's stacked on top of the trauma she already had with her ex you know what I make her feel so much more hyper Vigilant and worried about even creating rela
tionships in the future but I'm but but he's not really friends with this person anymore now right she's boundaried and doesn't talk to them right right it's still you know when you see someone else you have to keep them I mean I feel so I feel awful for her I mean you know I wonder too with things like that if it's you know would be helpful for also considered like doing like some EMDR and things like that like kind of doing some because like there's some real real deep complex post-traumatic s
tress there disorder stuff you know what I mean like that's really really layered and to to be so betrayed by a friend like that I honestly feel like in some ways I know this is gonna sound really weird but I almost feel like you can expect expect to be uh betrayed by a romantic partner more than a friend I mean that's what I think is also the thing I kind of feel like it would it surprises me more when when a friend betrays you to that degree then then when a when a romantic partner does I'm no
t really I'm not really sure isn't that interesting that's interesting have you ever heard the book The friend that got away no no I haven't oh it's an anthology it's not like the newest book but it's excellent but the stories of people losing their best friends oh and how it happens and some of them are through betrayal trauma and some of it's just natural but stories of friendships ending but often you think about with with women in particular and I know in my own experience the best friends t
hat I had when I was little through like the beginning of high school that relationship was more intense than most of my romantic relationships that that like best friendship where you tell each other everything and sleepovers and stuff and when those things end it's like it's just devastating in some way I mean depending on how it ends right right I absolutely think that I think you know it's all sharing all those different stages with people and like you said all the secrets and the trust you
know um it it's so devastating and that example you gave of your friend is so incredibly painful she I mean she must be experiencing so much grief and like and and feeling obviously traumatized once again you know um and then you kind of have to start to wonder what's up with a friend like what's going on yeah like how could people do that yeah yeah absolutely yeah I mean I it makes you it does make you wonder too when when people do that like their own set of issues that they must have and um y
ou have to believe that's showing up in some other areas of their life like are they somebody who tends to sort of like um you know side with toxic people in other areas you gotta you gotta Think It's gotta be true because that is just and or I'm wondering too is there any manipulation on the part of the best friend's husband oh maybe like I'm thinking maybe he's friends with the ex-husband and for the male Bond and it's like oh he's the one who's right crazy right so I wonder if the manipulatio
n by the best friend's husband that's interfering and she's she's submitting to kind of that because of of and she feels like well I gotta keep my allegiance to to the to my almost like to my husband could be friends with the guy and I wonder if that's true but like I'm just trying to because it does it makes you sort of do what I'm doing which is like wait how could that maybe isn't this no it's the thing that I'm doing the thing I'm doing is probably what she's doing you know what I mean yeah
of like trying to make sense of it all like how someone could convey you to that degree because you're right and the whole thing I think it's because also you're you're you're your weakest and most vulnerable You're you're at your rawest right when you're coming out of an abusive relationship and then you confide all that in somebody and then that person goes and be is best friends with that is just like that is the I can't even it's almost like you can't even imagine something where it's like o
r by someone killing your dog or something like I I mean it's just awful like yeah who does that well actually now that you're saying I'm thinking who else does it which is which is really bad is um when the ex convinces the family yes so the victim's family that the victim is the crazy one there the bad one and the uh family sides with the abuser okay well and when and when that happens to me there is to me there is no doubt whatsoever oh well I shouldn't say that because you shouldn't go with
the extreme I statements but but there's got to be child childhood trauma there because I I how how can someone do that too and you know that there has to be something very broken in that family to side with the abuser like you know is there like some narcissistic abuse going on there is one of the parents a narcissists and one of the parents borderline I don't know but there's got to be something happening there to to saw it literally side with the the abuser and to and to discard your own chil
d that way I know it has to be going on that's yeah that was there way before the end of that marriage yeah that's great so yeah thinking about that um like what you said about betrayal almost expecting it more from a romantic partner versus a friend because you just do yeah when we think about loyalty you think your friends are going to be loyal your family is going to be loyal like when your your romances come and go but you're going to have this solid core of people in your life and so when u
h relationship ends romantic one and then there goes some of the close friends it's like wait a minute yeah what can I count on if I count can't count on these people exactly exactly and that's why betrayal trauma is so awful because it's not it's not enemies it's friends it's people that you've actually trusted yeah and that betrayal that you're discussing with your friend is probably one of the it's like one of the worst you know or like like the one that I told you about the person who knew a
ll the secrets and then got and then moved in with the person and they're like together like I mean you there's like almost you can't even because all the other thing too is you it's the trauma that you imagine is continuing because you imagine also the things they must be saying about you the secrets that I told this person they must be just oh yeah private times or uh or laughing at me or whatever exactly imagine a world of these things happening you know and and it it almost feels like the tr
auma is continuing even if you don't really know what's being said exactly I mean it's almost worse because you're in this limbo of like I don't know what's happening but it must be awful because we always awful eyes and think it's the worst ever yes the good support she needs she's lucky to have you as a friend so yeah well I'm I'm also wondering so say when this happens when we experience betrayal trauma with with friends like you think about betrayal trauma in a relationship you what makes it
so bad is you stop trusting yourself and with a friend it's almost on another level because it's like not only did I have poor judgment in my ex but I chose bad friends these people did they never care for me they don't believe me maybe something's wrong with me how can you start to trust yourself after something like this well I mean I think just like with with getting over like recovering from abuse right we educate ourselves um you know like part of what we're doing is is that um you know yo
u go you do your own work you know your self-worth it's like it's almost like the same as like jumping into like the dating pool again it's it's like it's not because it in the end it's really not about I mean it sounds cliche I don't know that it's necessarily about trusting other people as it is about trusting yourself that you will make good decisions for yourself and knowing knowing who you are what you bring to the table knowing how to affect effectively cope as best as you can I mean a lot
of times we need to learn those things through EMDR or other things or our therapist or coach or whatever it is make therapists therapists therapists all that's like therapy stuff yeah and then I think on top of it it's like it's uh just as you might with dating it's like keeping it light vetting people letting them friends and romantic people alike kind of audition for you I don't mean it in an arrogant way I love that yeah but the idea really are you good enough for me like you know like frie
nd wise romantic whatever right like and and that when you start to see red flags I mean maybe you don't want to you know sometimes we're too quick to like throw someone away too quickly after such trauma we might be like oh they did that that's it [ __ ] them you know oh that's a whole other conversation we can talk about that's an interesting but I don't think we should do that we want to I mean of course there's certain things that I'm sure that are very much like yeah that's that's a one and
done but right but you want to you want to be able to recognize red flags and know when to say next let someone go more quickly right now look a lot of these people like with these friends if they've been friends a long time and you haven't seen it and we often don't right we don't often don't see people show their true colors for a long time so they already have their their hooks in us that we're already they're already in our heart you know in our body like we already have them in in in our y
ou know psyche and everything else it's hard to release them but it's it's kind of getting better at I think what it does in a way I mean to be honest with you I think it does Harden us a little bit you know I don't think we can I don't think we I think the truth is in reality I don't think it's always um in the world we live in I don't know that we can't always be soft I don't think we can be I think you have to sort of like be mindful I mean I have a lot of fun in my life and I like and I plea
sure and all that that's so important to me and relationships but there is a part of me that's like now at least where it's like well let's see you know like I'm I'm not yeah let's see what happens because I don't know you know and and I think I used to be scared to say that with romantic relationships especially like well let's see I wanna I if someone would say that to me I'd be like no no I don't want to see no no it's good it's good because it was like the idea I have to lock it in but I thi
nk the truth of the matter is relationships do come and go and you just you just you don't know but when you do know that something's not right for you you have to we have to be better at knowing how to release it you know yeah so important like learning to let go of people yeah even friends yeah and it's it's painful like there is there are no simple answers like oh if you do it this way it's gonna feel better I think it's always going to be a grieving process yeah I mean I had a freshly um sor
ry dropped my phone I had a friend who was actually um pretty narcissistic and and I'm not friends with her anymore um and I would say that ending was almost more difficult than some of my breakups from romantic relationships you know it was very hard to to let to Let It Go um very it's like Strangely I it was very it was incredibly painful yeah yeah so all right I'm glancing at the time and I'm like oh here we are an hour later friends yes as usual so Rebecca thanks so much and how can people f
ind you if they want to talk more about this or sex or addiction or getting help with anything therapy wise um Rebecca ishida.com um my Instagram is Rebecca underscore ashida and then I'm on Tick Tock at Rebecca Ishida so um yeah and I and I would love to do this again and I I'm really looking forward to seeing you so I'm definitely now I've got a lot of leeway like a lot of time to like we can plan it out and I can't wait good me too all right we'll talk soon okay and I'd love to do this again
soon too we bye
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