Pride, Pronouns, & People God Loves

[Music] hey what's up everybody Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast where we talk about the principles behind the plans as always I'm one of your hosts my name is Dave and my name is Jeff and of course we're father and son and also pastors at Allison Park Church Dave campus pastor at the North Side campus and I'm the lead Pastor uh here at Allison Park and have been here for over three decades actually as long as Dave has been alive that's kind of a marker for us and we're really glad

you joined us and do we have any people to recognize today yeah we want to do our gratitudes really quick because we have a really amazing listener base and if you're a part of that regular uh listener base whether you're watching through YouTube or you're on Spotify or apple podcast or another Forum thank you for joining us again we're so thankful to have uh you kind of on this journey with us but um I want to recognize today two additional people one of who I think is you actually hey I figur

ed we're asking everybody else to do five star reviews I should do my own right so to Daryl B and to Leaky pipes 99 I have no idea where that nickname came from I lost calebs I think you said yeah well you know so isn't there like a family share plan for your Apple password yeah and probably Caleb is on my family share plan and then his his uh handle just shows up for me for some reason there you go so thank you to Jeff for your kind five-star you know when you have a last name like leak there's

lots of intriguing um spin-offs for nicknames I was known when I was in high school as leaker uh I was known on the basketball team at Central Bible College they would chant takea take a leak that was my Infamous name I sat on the end of the bench and if we were winning by 30 or losing by 30 in my freshman year they would chant my name take God take take the whole crowd like can you believe that so there aren't you glad you listened to this particular podcast so you got to know by the way you'r

e not allowed to call me that anymore so but but yeah yeah anyway anyway we are uh currently we're actually right in the middle of the month of June June 19th as of the recording date yep and uh it's appropriate hopefully this is probably going to be released in July but we're gonna talk today about one of the things today is June 20th my friend oh June 20th I know this because tomorrow is my birthday come on somebody there you go happy happy 59. yeah 59th one more year of course you're listenin

g to this after the fact but yeah I've just I got one more year left in the 50s baby and then I turn a big corner there so but we are in the middle of pride month also across the country across the world and we thought it would be appropriate um to talk about this issue because it's become even more of a cultural Collision right now between the Christian Community and conservatives and yeah here's the thing it's so there there are these four big um social issues that as a church we've tried to p

ublicly take a stand on because they're so politicized um so there would be well and not just because they're politicized because they're biblical values and important and they sort of cut through the political atmosphere because we want to not be necessarily captured by any political party but we want to make sure that we speak prophetically into the culture and not be owned by it and so the four issues too tend to be right two tend to be left but they're really more biblical issues yeah so hop

e I want to just frame that properly yeah all based off of a podcast we heard from Carrie newhoff where he interviewed Tim Keller Tim Keller who's by the way we have to honor him because yeah he just passed recently intellectual Pastor from New York City Redeemer Presbyterian and created such a church planning movement wrote many great books and just recently passed away from pancreatic cancer yeah and he outlined in a podcast with Carrie neuhoff the four issues that he felt like were essential

and from that little podcast episode we heard in 2020 we have sort of built uh around these four issues as the social issues that we've embedded into our constitution bylaws into our employee handbook we're teaching our leaders on these things that we are for life we are teaching Christian sexuality we are for the marginalized and and the poor yeah and we are Against Racism yeah and so what I was going to say though is I actually think the toughest one to talk about by far is still Christian sex

uality oh yeah sure wherever you are in the like in the west I should say wherever you are in the west like I I realize there are probably some places you could be that talking about you know being Against Racism would be more difficult but well I think it was very very volatile in 2020 that particularly right yeah um but probably from a longer term perspective now it's probably pride and Christian sexuality that are somewhat the talking points and so even though we covered this several years ag

o you have to go back and you can listen to all four episodes on on these four issues if you'd like um because the culture is changing and the issues are changing we felt like we should revisit this yes you love the triple the triple alliteration yeah so we were going to title it pride pronouns and people God loves right so um yeah we probably should should review like a little bit before we get into some of the contemporary issues right yeah let's so let's let's okay we got a few sections we wa

nt to hit today let's let's just do a very light speed review of the problem because I think I think the the overview people already know the church seems to be and by the view by the culture as a bunch of bigots and there are some reasons for that some of them are good reasons lots of them are not good reasons so we'll talk about the problem and then we'll go from there about how we handle the problem in different different Arenas but you want to give us your sort of view of the history of this

issue okay so um well the history the history of the issue or the current problem where do you want to start oh history yeah like what what brought us to where we are today okay so real quickly you know I think for hundreds and hundreds of years uh if you were in LGBT uh qai categories um what you did and who you were was sort of against the law right right and and still in some countries like Uganda right now it's it's illegal it's I think a capital offense to be uh to be gay and some Muslim c

ountries it would be the same thing okay so in in the United States of America I grew up in the 80s and there were friends that I had that were gay but it wasn't very predominant and in most cases it was sort of a hidden thing and when it became sort of more fashionable in the 1980s when that's the LGBT uh movement started to pick up some speed the Christian Community was surprised by this and um often responded with a lot of anger and judgment right so especially because it just is wild how the

rise of the gay rights movement and the uh the you know problem of AIDS kind of kind of hit simultaneously and so a lot of the church world used AIDS as an opportunity to say see this is evidence of God's judgment that's coming upon you and if you don't repent you're going to go to hell and so all of a sudden now all these people who are suffering they're coming out they feel vulnerable already they're dealing with some family issues mental health issues now they may have maybe have a disease a

t a time where maybe it would have been great for the church to come and say Here's how we can help a lot of leaders were just throwing down you know statements of judgment and that kind of comes into a collision that was also happening in our country politically where you had the Moral Majority aligning itself with the Republican party so a lot of the church world was seen as Republican and then those who weren't in that category were seen as Democrat and then the the battle lines were drawn an

d you know in the 90s Bill Clinton is saying as far as the military if you are gay or lesbian don't ask don't tell just kind of keep it quiet but you can be all right and and so that then now you get to 2008 and um now the big issue is about Ken gay gay and lesbian people be married and still at that time 15 years ago in 2008 Barack Obama who became our president and John McCain who was the Republican candidate were on the stage at Saddleback Church in California and they were both asked the que

stion what is your position on gay marriage and both of them said unequivocally I believe that marriage is a spiritual thing should be between a husband and wife and a man and woman that should not change 15 years later now 2023 is where we are that position that President Obama held and that John McCain held is considered bigoted Blasphemous by much of the culture and would not not in any way align with what you would consider the current Pride movement so Wow have things changed in 15 years oh

my goodness so it's almost with breaknet speed and all in the middle of a political war and a culture war and so Believers in Jesus Christ who want to be loving and want to be um you know to minister and be compassionate and in no way hateful or sort of caught up in this Vortex of this don't want to leave what we believe the Bible teaches and at the same time we want to come up we want to be loving for people that are walking through whatever they're walking through and so this is the tension t

hat exists within our current culture and I don't know if I did an okay job with that overview but that brings us and so now now you have the um Pride movement I guess we can say say it to shorten so we don't have to use the alphabet every time um that has become openly hostile to to Christianity and especially to Catholics so that there is this thing right now in Los Angeles so there's a movement of Pride called The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence mocking Catholic nuns who have been both given

an award at Dodger Stadium and by the mayor of Los Angeles who are performing what you would call Blasphemous to Christianity sexual acts on the cross in like a play where Jesus is hanging on the cross being crucified and there's some other people surrounding him doing sexual acts so very disturbing um and and insulting to anyone who considers themselves a Christian but that's also being awarded by so honored by a government right the the city of Los Angeles and the and the and the Dodgers the L

os Angeles Dodgers so it's like oh my goodness what do we do with that and how do we process all this let alone that companies now expect you to if you're a company member approve of or give allegiance to uh the pride movement at least during the month of June if not all year long in order to keep your employment now I know that may be a little bit rare where you could get fired over it ah it's less than you'd think now yeah if I if there's not if there's not a direct you get fired it's probably

a hanging threat you know or lots of pressure to do that yeah yeah I've talked to many people in the church who are concerned about if it goes a step further what will this mean for their family if they lost their job yeah right um and they're not raising their voice or provoking anything they're not trying to take some political stand uh they're not like ripping stuff off the walls during pride month they're just thinking if I have to say something about my conviction on this matter that doesn

't align with my faith what will the consequence be to my employment yeah and and so we're not okay listen let me just say if you're you would consider yourself a member of the pride movement we're not crying persecution here in fact I'll just tell you my a couple of days ago I felt the Holy Spirit sort of woke me up in the middle of the night and I felt him call me to pray more aggressively for people who are in the process of coming out or have come out or families that are dealing with this o

r even those like perpetu sisters of Perpetual Indulgence so you know like there's this moment in in the story where there Jesus and his disciples are walking by the Samaritans and and they get insulted by a Samaritan and James and John said you want us to call fire down from heaven on them and Jesus says you know what are you talking about so I felt personally offended when I saw the video clip of these people committing sexual acts with a Jesus character on the cross I almost had this reaction

inside to say do you want me to call fire down like should I use my spiritual and then I just felt like the holy spirit said pray for every one of the members of Perpetual sisters of Perpetual Indulgence to find the reality of the love of Jesus Christ the one that they're mocking on the cross like haven't haven't we all by our sin nailed Jesus to the cross and and can we put ourselves in a place where we feel Superior somehow so so I have really upped my game in prayer because I I don't want to

be a part of this culture War I want to be a part of preaching the gospel in a way that brings people to Jesus however I don't think the culture at large is allowing us to be neutral and I don't think the Bible allows us to be neutral and so I think we now have to Grapple through what do we do as followers of Jesus in this hidily volatile culture regarding this significant issue okay so let's talk to me about you wanted to start with our tone interpersonally before we get into okay so what I do

n't want to do is have a reaction like happen in the 80s and 90s and sort of take the posture that we as the church are against gay people or queer people or transgender people or lesbians like I don't think we are wanting to take a position of opposition to individuals who are identifying in whatever way they're identifying Okay so I I just want to say as a pastor like Jesus came for everybody he came to die on the cross for us all um and I I want to represent Christ and so if someone is walkin

g through a journey in in their life regarding same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria or questions about how they should look at themselves and identify themselves I I want to Pastor them I I want to be and if and if they say I don't want to be pastored because I'm not a Christian at least want to be friends with you I want to be able to pray for you so I don't see this as an antagonistic personal View and I think the tone should be we listen we care about someone's story we get face to face we

don't LOB political or inflammatory grenades into the air with our speech to try to stir up trouble we look to find win-win Solutions in situations where there is conflict um and we we come at it from a tone of Brokenness and humility and love and grace yet without a single Speck of compromise when it comes to biblical truth okay so that's a difficult tone you want to add anything to that did I say it well I think you said it great um I think the the key is when we're talking about interpersona

l having a conversation with people with people who are individuals who are going through this I think that's that's the right tone I think where it shifts is when we're talking about public um how do we teach on this how do we walk through this because I I think this is not me at all calling anybody out but I think it's been so difficult for the western church through Justice that largely if it's a larger church that's not highly politicized on one side of the aisle it tends to be there's nothi

ng that's coming out well okay so here were the shifts early on when you preached about it you sort of preached biblical standard we're not going to be swayed by this new movement the Bible says this period period period okay then it became that was the wrong tone let's just not talk about it at all and handle it interpersonally when when someone comes and we find out there's a question let's deal with it from a personal and private point of view and let's not handle these kind of controversial

doctrinal issues from the platform unless we have to because it stirs up an unnecessary Hornet's Nest and then we realized okay it it that didn't work because the era changed and now it was like okay now it feels like if we don't talk about it then young people middle schoolers kids families parents new Believers are confused about what the Bible teaches and don't know how to navigate those conversations in their personal life so I don't think we want to talk about it from a politicized cultural

point of view but we have to talk about it from A discipleship point of view or else then nobody actually is able to navigate through these Waters with the kind of loving tone that's necessary and then you end up on one side of the war or the other side of the war and so this that's the podcast thus we have podcasts like this because we have to Grapple with this now because there are again people who work in places where they could be losing their jobs how do I talk to my employer when I can't

uh raise the flag but don't want to come off as a hateful bigot right and what do I do when my son or daughter comes to me with questions because their friends are identifying as bisexual and they want to come over and I'm afraid the influence they're having on my child and how do I navigate it in the classroom in the public school whenever these things are being taught and I don't know what to to do with this and how do I talk to my teenagers about this and what does the bible actually say and

is there more flexibility than than we think and and I heard Pastor so and so say this and what does that is actually true and where does the church stay in Endless theologians have different takes and they're they're just saying the church at large is only saying this because they're bigoted and they've got it wrong and so what we have to do okay we're probably going to do a second part of this episode yeah and we're not going to totally Retreat where we're gonna get I want to talk about how we

deal with the cultural issue yeah but so maybe we'll do this this we'll do a quick theological and social overview now yeah which by the way I think I think let me just add one more thing yeah I think on the politically right the right side right on the Republican side the Evangelical Christian side we have sometimes strike struck the wrong tone and we have become more concerned with winning the culture war or winning the argument than in winning people for Christ okay but on the left side of t

he political aisle there has been created an impossible standard so either you affirm or you're a bigot right either you agree with me or you're homophobic and there is no there is no opportunity for nuance so you either conform or you should be silenced right so there isn't a way to be able to say okay listen I I've surrendered my life to Jesus Christ 100 and I want to follow him with all that I am and I'm not trying to come off in a way that judges you unnecessarily but I also cannot slap some

thing on my life that this sticker that would say I agree with you when I can't agree with you and follow Jesus you put an impossible situation before me that I cannot meet that standard and if you're asking me do it or else then I have to say I'm sorry you're going to have to do to me whatever you want to do to me here but I'm not going to leave my my convictions about Jesus okay so well especially that's unfair that is totally unfair and so both sides of the culture were have at times taken a

tone that isn't helpful and we as Christians are trying to swim through the middle of this and it's at the place where on these particular topics if you end up trying to swim in the middle at all you get shot from both sides right and so we are not swimming in the middle like we're taking those stand on this please if you're on the conservative Evangelical biblical side I 100 percent believe in Christian sexuality without compromise okay but the tone we're striking is trying to say we want to bu

ild some Bridge have some conversation figure out ways to do this in a way that is loving that is influential that is filled with grace and thus the the child still shepherds are people my biggest concern is this as a former youth pastor and now as a campus Pastor I think there's the most confusion there's ever been it's easy to be a long time Christian yeah and to hear one convincing 30 second video on social media and all of a sudden you don't know anymore and I think it's our responsibility t

o combat what the enemy is trying to do with his confusion and twisting of the word of God so we okay we we probably in our we'll do a second part in part four in the series we are just completing now letters from the end of the world Jesus's message toward thyatira he especially has severe warnings for spiritual leaders who in any way try to pervert the Biblical teaching on Christian on sexuality okay so let's just state that if you happen to have heard the message of on thyatira this is nothin

g to play around with from Jesus's perspective either yeah because some people like to say Jesus holds no opinions on this and if you happen to read Revelation Chapter 2 and you read the very last letter it is it is a it puts the fear of God in Me as a pastor because it says well IT addresses a woman named that he calls Jezebel using an Old Testament prophet's name and warns her that if she does not repent of her false teachings about sexuality and idolatry that he would cast her on a bed of suf

fering this is Jesus saying it to her yes to be taught not to blaspheme my goodness so not not neutral to Jesus this is not neutral to Jesus let me just say Jesus did not threaten people struggling with same-sex attraction gender dysphoria or anyone in the lgbtq community that was not the intention sorry about that he did however call out spiritual leaders and influencers who would try to use their position to teach something different like saying I represent Jesus and this is what he thinks whe

n he doesn't think that and and honestly you know this is not unusual James chapter 3 James says you should be very careful if you're a teacher because you're going to be judged more strictly so anytime you raise your voice to say this is what God thinks you better make sure that it is in line with what what God does think or else you put yourself in the crosshairs of needing to be corrected so having dropped that big bomb on the conversation yeah where do we go now you want to do quick theologi

cal review yeah I'm wondering if we can um I'm wondering if we can do a 90 second to two minute okay theological review about Jesus perspective on socialism so real real quickly can I you do this you want to do it you go ahead all right Jesus was raised as a Jew in Galilee he would have memorized in his training under Joseph and Mary the first five books of the Old Testament which we call the Torah yep the Torah teaches sexual standards in Leviticus chapter 18 and anything in violation of those

standards were was considered sexual immorality okay so wait wait can I can I pause you here because what you're going to talk about is where Jesus uses the phrase sexual morality and I think sometimes we have our own interpretation of what that means but to a Jewish man Jesus he was referring to something very specific well it was all the things moral means by the law immorality means against the law okay so so he was saying anything sexual against the law of God is sexual immorality all right

great yeah so and basically when you read through the Torah it includes adultery and all the things listed in Leviticus chapter 18. the rule that we see in from the beginning of the book of Genesis all the way through to the end of the book of Revelation the rule is sex designed by God for our good for our pleasure for procreation for intimacy between husband and wife and a covenant relationship of marriage there is never time in the scripture where Jesus or anyone else affirms any kind of sexua

l practice outside of the Covenant of marriage between husband and wife never ever a time in fact multiple times in the New Testament where Jesus and the early church had opportunity to redefine what sexual immorality was what approved sexual practices were for Gentiles coming to Christ rather than them reinterpreting the policies of the Old Testament because not all Old Testament law applies to New Testament Christians like we're not circumcised anymore we're not sacrificing animals there's lot

s of stuff that was specifically for the people of God in Israel living physically near the temple or the Tabernacle yes that once Jesus came he said look it's not actually what you eat that makes you clean it's what comes out of your mouth right and what comes out of your heart one of the things he listed is murder actually I have it right here do you want to read Matthew 15 19. he says the things that come out of a person a person's mouth come from the heart and these to file the meaning you u

sed to think it was the food you ate but I'm changing that law he says out of the heart come evil thoughts murder adultery sexual morality theft false testimony and slander these are what defile a person but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them okay and and so for those who would say well sexual immorality is only adultery there are two different things Jesus says there and in Mark 7 he actually says lust so lust adultery which is violating your Covenant to have sex with someone you'r

e not married to and then sexual immorality which is a catch-all term for all of the things mentioned in the old Covenant the law of God so that along with countless other scriptures reaffirms that sex is designed only to be practiced in one place and that is between husband and wife and marriage actually Jesus broadens it to say if you even look lustfully at someone who's not your wife that's that's sin so he doesn't make it make the sexual requirements looser he actually intensifies the defini

tions for us now the culture has a totally different definition and even those who are not Christians would argue where the line is so if you don't draw the line as sex should be uh done only between husband and life and marriage then the the other rule is anything anytime any way as long as there's consent yeah 10 people having sex together if there's consent not a problem uh polyamory where there's six people all married together as long as there's consent none of my business right um and they

would say as long as it's a certain age most people but even that now is it being challenged it is being challenged so how young can a person be sexualized and uh most I've had many conversations with people about this issue who disagree with the Christian sexuality standard of sex between a husband and wife in marriage and then I ask the question well where would you draw the line and if you draw the line anywhere other than consent you you make the culture mad if you say two gay people as lon

g as they're married the culture's mad at you yeah right so there is if there is a standard put in place that is an arbitrary truth-based standard for sexuality that is no longer acceptable to the culture so honestly guys the Christian standard which has been in place for thousands of years and reinforced by the Bible is this the healthiest safest um most productive standard that we can have and if you're going to move the line at all you you still aren't going to remove the the unpopularity of

your conviction because if you have a truth line you're going to be targeted I think I think the so the cultural thing where a district theology is sex is primarily a way of getting some physical enjoyment pleasure uh or expressing your love to someone that you have strong feelings towards but it has no spiritual consequences no spiritual consequences just a physical act and honestly in some way no no soulish consequences right that it is it is just like eating right so you're just eating all yo

u're doing is you know having uh some enjoyment if you drink if you drink a beer and you feel a little bit of a buzz I mean there's no consequence then if you have sex you have sex I mean there's no cuts and yet on the other side we know that there's a there's a line of people who have been traumatized by a sexual relationship with someone that left them devastated and broken-hearted and so it it doesn't always make a lot of logical sense yeah there are deep emotional feelings about it all and f

or and for good reason and and so I will say this really quick and I can't even address all there's a lot of different types of things that are said um I know a lot of people have watched an Instagram video a tick tock video a YouTube clip that is somebody describing the Hebrew or Greek version of what what the Bible says the original language they're like look it doesn't even say this I I've really I've seen a lot of those they are actually false some some of them are lies some of them are just

misleading like there's one that I always hear it's like the word homosexuality wasn't even put into the Bible until 1946 yeah I've seen that well the word didn't exist but the the actual word that that Paul uses is men who lie with other men like there's there's or Leviticus chapter 18 says it directly if a man sleeps with another man as he would sleep with a woman right okay and then Jesus affirms sexual morality any any condemns sexual immorality so it's there and then you have Romans chapte

r one okay there's there are a lot of verses so um it's worth like being real about what yeah the Bible fits together as a big puzzle written over 1500 years and you have old Covenant that fits in the New Covenant but you have to do more than just argue from a couple of texts and wrestle through a couple of Greek words what we can say is nowhere in the scripture does the bible ever affirm any kind of sexual practice outside of husband and wife right yep yep you would think something that revolut

ionary if we're going to change the mores and traditions that have existed since the time of Jesus that somewhere someplace the Bible would say oh by the way here's the new policy yeah and every verse we have seems to reinforce what old Covenant law that then carries over into Newcomb not that anyone is saved by being sexually Integris what we are defining is is what what God prescribes to us through the scriptures about how we should be living Our Lives that doesn't even really begin to touch t

he whole gender identity question which I guess is another one of these big big deals do we want to save gender identity for our next maybe we should yeah yeah so there's a that's a that's a fascinating one to me because that's actually you can so we've talked about this before just the the referencing um this book that really was helpful for both of us the rise in Triumph of the modern self by Carl Truman we'll go into more of that Carl Truman who by the way is a professor at Grove City College

which is not far from where we Pastor here in Pittsburgh Carl Truman great book and there's a a simpler book it's like an Abridged version It's called Strange New World strange new world really we'll get into the stuff that deals with how we ended up here like how did we enter up where we are now it's so fascinating to me because you can trace like the like oh this you know this this poet and Sigmund Freud and Carl marks and Kinsey yeah yeah and the development of the thinking process that led

us to this place because okay we'll just give a little tease you really believe the teachings of Sigmund Freud about sex or Jesus Christ yep you can't believe both because they're they're in competition with one another and it's not science versus the Bible no it's modern cultural theology because Freud taught that the worst thing a person can do is repress their sexuality Jesus taught it's best to deny your sexual urges and channel them in a love relationship between husband and wife yeah Freud

would have called Jesus repressive yep Jesus would have called Freud sinful yeah you you're a follower of one or the other you can't be a follower of both these two worldviews are different so you call yourself a Christian you want to be compassionate at the same time it's not like these are the same belief systems no right right and uh nor are the same methodology to lead someone to wholeness and health and freedom and a lifetime of sexual fulfillment and personal connectedness right so one pr

escribes one approach and and the other prescribes something completely different so we need to talk about how what we do culturally culture can I can I just try to stamp this a little bit Yeah I think the way that we so before we transition I think what we have to understand is there's some responsibilities we have it's our responsibility to personally stand on what the word of God says yes to interpersonally be compassionate but also to not compromise be like holding empathy as if empathy is t

he highest value to God because actually like for for Christians Holiness is the highest value to God you know even more like we do want to do everything in love but but compromising what God demands of us as in terms of the standards of being as kids and and being holy is not a loving act well you know what I'm saying so even Jesus when he was teaching his disciples to go out and preach the gospel to those that he was trying to reach said if you go to a tire Village and they don't receive you S

hake the Dust off your sandals and go to the next town he didn't say stick around and keep on begging them to hear you and maybe Upstate some of your beliefs because they might not really be yeah sound with the culture there not that they're not loved anymore but he's like saying okay you deposited something there you planted some seed maybe they'll come back around later but it is not your responsibility to convince everybody that you're right nor is it your responsibility to conform so much to

their belief system in order to be accepted by them that somehow you lose the whole content of what it is to be a follower of Christ yeah the gospel in and of itself to say that you're wrong and like not just you but me and our natural opinions and our ideas are wicked and if we don't change that we're going to be separate from God that's the gospel and that Jesus came because he loved us so much that's offensive to the culture into the world and so the ideas I mean Jesus said you know they'll

hate you because they hate me and if you're like me they're gonna hate you as well so that doesn't create a persecution complex in this it just makes us prepared to be able to take a stand without being vindictive angry uh we're always feeling sorry for ourselves we just need to realize okay this is the world and now we have to navigate some new cultural Waters right yeah so this is the new thing that I think we're going to discuss now okay how how to be public because before this was only priva

te we relegated this just to the private spear but especially as okay I'll say we have to lead the charges pastors especially as pastors but then as anybody who's really a serious Christian how do we publicly be loving but also holding to God's holiness standard you know so I I know okay I know we were having a conversation before about this and uh we we started talking about pride and pronouns and stuff like that and and you have some pretty hot takes when it comes to some of this stuff yeah so

let's let's start let's start here um well I don't think we want to just go for hot takes but yeah no I'm not gonna okay I'll I'll let's ease Us in okay okay so [Laughter] I know we have a number of different levels okay so um okay should we talk pastorally first because that's an easier one oh or do you want to go oh let's skip that for now because because pastorally it's pastorally I think it's it's we have to be able to just publicly preach the word of God and it's pretty much as simple as t

hat do that in a loving tone but okay but instruct people as they need to be instructed because they'll be confused otherwise when it comes to okay in the workplace so there's things like you know I have a family member who is you know who is transitioning or have a friend who's gay or whatever and they're asking me these questions and I feel a tremendous amount of pressure from them to be supportive or to walk in a march with them in a pride parade or to have a flag on my house right now how do

es a serious Christian handle these kind of situations let's start there so you gave me like nine possibilities let's start with one in particular okay um interpersonally there are people that you love that really want you to show public support for pride yeah so I I I I I use I think this used to be possible that you could so I I actually have meetings all the time with people that are new to the church investigating the church attending the church and they have questions sometimes be people ev

en before they show up at Allison Park will want to email this question are you an affirming Church and so what I always do interpersonally is I'll say I don't want to answer that question in writing I would rather sit face to face with you and have a conversation because email doesn't pick up tone um in writing we can have a good scholarly debate but we won't end up friends yeah so so first thing I would do is I would sit and say tell me your story what where are you in this journey um when did

you come out why is this so important to you have you experienced other people that have been hateful towards you what was that like what does your family feel about this what's your perception about what the Bible says what do you think I believe like I would probably start with asking a ton of questions first and then typically what I say is this look I'm a Christian I've chosen to follow Jesus and when I chose to follow Jesus Christ I made the decision to surrender a hundred percent of my li

fe to him he's the most important thing in the world to me and when he calls me to follow him he doesn't negotiate he actually asks for unconditional surrender so he's he said if anyone wants to come after me must deny himself take up his cross and follow me if you want to save your life by holding on to it you're going to lose it but if you're willing to surrender your life to me you'll find it what good does it is it for a person to gain the whole world and lose their soul so I have come into

my relationship with Jesus with an unconditional surrender and when I've chosen to do that I allow for him to dictate what I believe about sex how I practice it what I believe about my my biological sex and my gender uh how I respond to my enemies How I Live he actually messes with me on all kinds of other things too like what entertainment I choose and what I do with my time and what I do with my money so I'll ask the question are you the person that is now wanting me to align or affirm you wan

ting to surrender to Jesus because if you are I will walk alongside with you as you discover what Jesus says to you about what you have to do next because he is able to through his word and by the holy spirit guide you in your own journey and I'll Pastor you through that process if you're like I do not want to follow Jesus I'm not interested in surrendering I just want you to come out and affirm me then I would have to say well look there are just a number of barriers between me and affirmation

one I love you and I can't necessarily agree with your worldview like is is loving enough do I have to agree because if you're going to demand that our friendship or my relationship with you be based upon my agreement with you on this particular issue then then probably we can't be friends but that's not because I don't want to be it's because you're putting pressure on this relationship for me to conform to something that you know from the beginning I can't conform to Let's distill this now a l

ittle bit Yeah okay now you're not Pastor Jeff you're just you're a guy okay and you have a friend or a family member I would say I feel really rejected by by Christians um I'm not sure they're even interpreting the Bible well what do you believe do you think I'm going to hell I know that you talked about the complex process of asking questions you know yeah well so here you know Jesus dealt with complex issues when he was put on the spot by asking questions he rarely gave answers because he did

give answers and often told stories but if there's a question behind the question then we have to get to that so if if you're saying do you think I'm going to hell if the question is that um can I categorize you as a hateful bigot if that's the real question then just saying yes or no doesn't really help the conversation so if I'm a guy and you're saying do you think I'm going to hell I would probably say what do you think it really doesn't matter what I think because ultimately I can't judge y

our relationship with God or not um so what do you think are you going to hell are you right with God do you think I'm going to hell and if they so I don't even believe there's a hell I'll say okay well then I do believe there's a hell but you don't so what do we do with that like does that have to break our friendship so I would just keep asking questions to find out what what are you really asking me here are you wanting me to cast judgment on you just so that we can get that out of the way or

are you really asking some deeper so if a person says Pastor Jeff do you think I'm going to hell and they really are asking that question I'm going to take that question in a totally different direction if they're like you probably think I'm going to hell don't you like okay that's a totally different thing and I'm not going to just say things because you're trying to trigger a reaction from me because the bottom line is I really love you and you could try to shake me off by saying that I'm not

conforming to what you think my love for you ought to look like yeah I I really do love you I really do care about you and so I can't affirm your world view number two I have a massive problem with the word pride because pride is never a thing the Bible affirms in general even let's just take it away from sexuality and just in general Pride goes before a fall right pride is the original sin that Satan committed when he rebelled against God uh so Pride it almost elevates the person's sexuality a

nd identity into a place where that becomes the centerpiece of their entire world and to me that's worshiping something other than Jesus so so sexuality for me is not primary yeah spirituality is Jesus is sexuality submits to that but if sexuality is primary for you and spirituality secondary you're asking me to to buy laboring using the label Pride say something about my my the center of my life that isn't yeah in congruence with what I understand so so can I love somebody can I can I accept th

em as a person without affirming a worldview I I think it used to be that way so wait so but let's more simple you're you're we're there but I think like you're still like a Kung Fu Master with your questions sometimes people like I can't do that like uh so so somebody's putting the pressure on you and you want to come across loving but still say I I can't affirm World Views that don't align with the Bible how do you say that because I know Jesus questions instead of giving answers but there nee

ds to be a way that I would say it would be better to say nothing and say you've asked a really good question I'm not sure the right words to select to to send the right message to you you obviously can see I'm conflicted and you probably know why that I am because you know I'm a Christian right but can I can I pray about what you just asked and get back to you rather than just giving them an answer to satisfy the conversation I would just be very precise again using the model of Jesus when he w

as put on the spot by people who who honestly had an ulterior motive so when they came in should we pay taxes to Caesar or not Jesus gave an answer well whose inscriptions on the coin and in that he was trying to figure out are you are you sincere in your question are you trying to set me up for for an answer that can for confirms a Prejudice you have already so I just be very cautious so I guess how do I say to simplify the answer don't say much listen a lot don't say much when you say somethin

g make sure that it's with precision and maybe when you talk it should be continuing the conversation of curiosity rather than trying to combat an ideology right so from a teaching preaching point of view I think we combat an ideology from an interpersonal point of view I think we because here's the deal most often in a conversation we are not dealing with a person's mental questions we're dealing with their pain and if you're answering logically to someone who's carrying pain oftentimes it's a

misfire yeah good so the reason why we listen isn't just so that we don't get caught in a trap it's that you're really trying to hear a person's heart and sometimes the conversation goes down a path you never expected like man I never knew you went through that as a kid yeah yeah that just that's awful man I'll be praying for you and you know I care about you right I would never want to see anyone go through that right you can do all of that stuff without necessarily shifting your world view now

here's I think maybe this is a tease for what we should talk about in the next episode when you have someone who is now in the transgender category asking you to change your language and the use of pronouns and how you address them and how you talk in conversations and because I think that also complicates the matter about a hundred times more and that's it but but I have I have one more one for the pronoun conversation but let's let's finish with some more Pride stuff okay because I know we're

running a little long today but there's I don't think we fully got where I'm hoping to land maybe you need to help with some okay yeah okay so so that was good that was good about how to handle some interpersonal conversations like this um okay so let's talk about corporate though you're in a workplace you're in a school school you're in something there you know um or like a situation that my wife was almost in was like you know she does like a pop-up Market where she does like resale and you k

now sells some skin care products and stuff so you're in a place like that where the expectation is if you're gonna be here if you're going to be an employee you're gonna you're gonna put a little Rainbow by your name you're gonna put a flag on your desk you're gonna you know like this this is how we do things as a company and if you don't there's there's a unsaid threat of you could be fired or at least excommunicated from the social sphere here because you're a bigot now how do we handle that

kind of pressure yeah okay so I do think there's some patterns given to us in the scripture for living in Babylon so to speak right so we said in past episodes that Babylon was the symbol of the world system and you have a couple of different characters Daniel um who was carried from Israel into Babylon and lived as they so they they actually uh castrated him he's living as a eunuch in the king's Palace and is asked to do things compromising his convictions Daniel humbly goes to his supervisor a

nd presents the situation you're asking me to do something I can't do this is again my against my conscience I want to please you boss but I can't do that and maintain my faith I'm willing to die if I have to can I propose a counter solution can I be exceptional and eat this food instead of the food you're asking me to eat and he won favor that way Esther is living in Persia and they're ready to kill the Jews right and she's a Jew and she throws a banquet for the king and then a second banquet a

nd when finally he comes as what do you want Oh look I just I just want you to spare my life she says okay so rather than going you know I'm not doing this I'm a Believer in Jesus like you can't make me I'm going to call HR so so go to your supervisor and say look I'm in a really tough position here and I I'm I prayed this through and I thought about it and is there a way that I can continue to be a Christian without causing a huge controversy and yet at the same time be able to keep my job and

not participate with the rest of this if the answer is no to that then I think you continue the steps of Matthew 18. then you go up a level you go to higher levels in the company you talk to HR you make whatever complaint you need to make and say look I'm trying here to work with the company and I just can't do this this is a matter of conscience for me and if you end up fired over it then I think it's totally legitimate to hire a lawyer and humbly do what you need to do to defend your rights an

d the rights of other Christians who might be being persecuted for the same reasons and I think then you can make persuasive arguments in the Public Square as to why you lost your job for the wrong reasons and how you love people but you cannot compromise your convictions as a follower of Jesus so okay so I think it starts with humility and appeal and Creative Solutions and it can't escalate into the legal sphere if necessary because this is not a fight you picked it's a fight that got picked wi

th you and now you're trying to navigate these Waters without compromising your faith if it reaches a point in time where let's say not only is does that happen but you're canceled and they put you in prison then I say go to prison celebrating the joy that you've been counted and worthy to suffer for the gospel okay so yeah so if they and if they want to put me to death I will go to the death come on and not deny it's easy to cheer for that whatever that's not really on the line yeah right right

it's true but what I'm saying is for me and this is what I hope Christians get yeah have the backbone to take your stand but don't escalate it into a political culture War yeah be willing to suffer for your convictions not to make other people suffer for your convictions like let the battle come to you you don't have to go take the battle to somebody else because our primary battle is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and our primary goal is not to win a culture

afterwards to win souls and to win people for Jesus and if we let the culture War overtake us then we lose our primary Mission which is to make disciples I have to ask okay I know we're running a little long but I have to ask a couple more questions is it is it wrong to sort of silently conform as a Christian to some of these things what does that look like silently conform can so to be silent is not wrong too so like I'm here I'm not going to make a big deal about this I can actually be here an

d I don't feel like I've done anything that violates my conviction convictions I'm just gonna back away I'm gonna stand to the side I'm not going to engage quietly conform means I'm now pretending to give approval to something I can't get that's yeah I think that's probably a violation it's like it's like the whole thing eating meat offered to Idols right I'm not going to sacrifice to the idol but I'm going to come to the party where they're sacrificing to the Idol because that's what they did i

n the Pagan world and I'm going to eat with my friends and as long as no one asks me what I what I think about worshiping this god or goddess I'll just quietly say I'm a Christian but if someone asks me okay I might have to say no I don't agree with this which then might cause a stir I think I think there at some point you're putting feet in both worlds so that's a radical thing you're saying now but I just want I want this people to catch this yeah because you're saying you don't want to add to

the culture War but you absolutely if you're going to be a follower of Jesus the way that he's asked us to be you have to take a stand where you won't participate in this stuff even even casually even in a small way you're saying we need to be radical about the way that we take a stand with this I I do think that if you're so you've been invited to a wedding of somebody's you care about them you're friends with them they ask will you come to my wedding or the company's putting on a program and

you're at being asked to be in attendance it gets really sticky doesn't it you know because even okay even in the scripture let's just admit that there was a debate in the New Testament Church about when it was okay to eat meat offered idols and when it wasn't Romans 14 and 15 and and First Corinthians I think it is eight and ten there's a debate about when you have freedom and when you don't it so now we're in a very very sticky situation if it was up to me I would err on the side of making sur

e my conscience was clean so like Paul says if I'm even going to offend someone that is a Christ follower I would rather never eat meat offered Idols than to do something that would damage the body of Christ but you're being so metaphorical here so being in the same room to use one thing having your own pride flag even a small one no I think that's I think that's a massive compromise yeah okay it's like saying can I have a little bail sticker on my car right is it okay if I just have a you know

coexist and then Satan's in there too like right now no I don't think you can right so I'm not to say it's that extreme but I'm just saying no I think this is that's a different religion it's a different God yeah I think so now maybe we'll dive into this next time but I do think the pride world view is just a totally separate religion from Christianity should be treated with the same respect that we treat other religions but it isn't Christianity and you can't be Muslim and Christian you can't b

e Buddhist and Christian yeah you can't be Hindu and Christian and you can't be pride and Christian agree so all right well that was a that was a good second episode yeah we will have a second episode or and and you know I guess I'm like timidly excited for I'm excited for it but it's just like this such a hot button topic that it's a little intense but you know if you heard this and you feel like you need to have a conversation don't just leave a blast comment on YouTube or please reach out I w

ould love to have a conversation I I really would and and if and Dave or I because we don't want this to be a Throwdown no I I think we're we're both held accountable to talk about what the Bible says and to stick towards you know being true to Jesus but we're not trying to blast anybody it's just I do believe that Jesus has a standard that he's very clear about and for followers of Jesus it's important to understand that it's it's I think the best thing we can do is to clear up confusion becaus

e I think what the devil wants to do is to confuse Christians yes so let's at least remove confusion to know what we're dealing with right you know and the most loving way we can so and we hope hopefully this was a helpful part one of this whole conversation um again yeah feel free to reach out to us if you'd like to we'd love to have a conversation with you uh we also would love if you would help us to in general start to spread the word about not necessarily just this topic but the podcast bec

ause we do want to help as many people as we can by doing things like clearing up confusion and also providing encouragement and challenges um so we want to say thank you again for joining us um if you're on YouTube and you could like And subscribe that'd be so helpful uh you can give us five star review you can share you know whatever you want to do but we would appreciate whatever you're willing to do to help us spread the word so yeah thanks again for joining for us for this episode we'll see

you guys again next time