There
we go welcome to
Soundtrack everybody a
live queer oral
history project sponsored by the
UBC Equity and
Inclusion Office I'm
your host Michael V
Smith yay coming
to you
from the
beautiful unceded territory of
the Syilx Okanagan people each
week we
welcome a
special guest and
feature a
new album as
the prompt for The
Soundtrack of
Our Lives the week
uh- the
week is- this
week is the
top-selling album of
all time the top-selling album of all time globally worldwide Michael Jackson's 1982 rel
ease Thriller and to
tell us
where he
was when is
one of
the kindest humans alive the
award-winning writer Hasan Namir hi
Hasan welcome to
Soundtrack hey Michael thank
you so
much for
having me thank
you so
much for
having me thanks
for being
here I'm
just doing
a little
technical thing yay there's
my spotlight um and uh I'm
gonna flip
the queer toonie and we'll
see who
goes first do
you want
queens or
bears I'm
a bear
so I'm
gonna say
a bear okay that is-
I always
have to
take that
off like
an
old
man- bears you
get to
go first awesome so now thank
you so
much take
it away awesome so
just to
give you
a little
bit of
context a
piece that I
wrote called
The Moonwalk um and um it
was inspired by Michael Jackson's Thriller I
listen to
music on
my headphones when
I want
to heal yearning for
a shed of
tears that
would drip over
my cheeks sound waves
of nostalgia channelling through
my ear
canal I
listen when
I'm eager to
search for
a particular feeling the
name of
it I
don't know I
listen w
hen
I want
I don't
want to
have to
think about the
words I'm
listening my
eyes stimulated when
it's so
loud I
could feel
the energy through
my bones I
press play and
I'm listening like
it's 1999 it
was a
year since
we arrived in
Canada my
tongue was
a war
zone of
conflicting languages I
stood there watching in
awe when
the lyrics were
foreign to
me when
I heard
the song I
thought of
Iraq we
were all
standing there watching our
family friend Varda do
the moonwalk she
was gliding backwards as
we a
ll
cheered her
on she
pretended she
was wearing an
imaginary hat when
she floated on
the floor I
could hear the
strings which threw
me in
a familiar space I
was in
my mother's womb my
father must
have played
the song over and
over again this- [INAUDIBLE] Hey
Hasan I
think I
lost you [INAUDIBLE] I
remember he
touched my
back and
I felt so
light like he
and I
could do
the moonwalk all night long then my
relatives saw
me within him and
they pulled
us apart the
I was
too young to
understand my
memor
ies were
non-linear the
steps were
non-linear my
queerness was
hiding inward today I'm
listening again as
my memories are
gliding forward like
the moonwalk my
queerness is
outward thank
you so
much so
amazing I
love that I lost about 30 seconds of
that oh
you did yeah the
sound popped out
but it
popped back
in again okay
let me
just take
a look
I'll redo I'll read
it again
one second here
can you
do that
why not yeah absolutely sorry
about that
I don't
know what
happened there no
that's okay per
fect I'll
read it
again uh
The Moonwalk thank
you I
listen to
music on
my headphones when
I want
to heal yearning for
a shed of
tears that
would drip over
my cheeks sound waves of
nostalgia channelling through
my ear
canal I
listen when
I'm eager to
search for
a particular feeling the
name of
it I
don't know I
listen when
I don't
want to
have to
think about
the words I'm
listening my
eyes stimulated when
it's so loud I
could feel the
energy through my
bones I press
play and
I'm listening like
it
's 1999 it
was a
year since
we arrived to
Canada my
tongue was
a war zone of
conflicting languages I
stood there watching in
awe when
the lyrics were
foreign to
me when
I heard
the song I
thought of
Iraq we
were all
standing there watching our
family friend
Varda do
the moonwalk she
was gliding backwards as
we all cheered her
on she
was she
pretended she
was wearing an
imaginary hat when
she floated on
the floor I
could hear
the strings which
threw me
in a
familiar space I
was in
my mother's wom
b my
father must
have played
the song over and
over again the
song transcended beyond Arabic and
English the
universality was
the moonwalk the
song ended and
we all
clapped I
remember that
same night there
was a
boy a
few years older
than me he
saw the
queerness in
me so
we walked past the
crowd of
family friends I
remember he
touched my back
and I
felt so
light like
he and
I could
do the
moonwalk all
night long then my
relatives saw
me with
him and
they pulled
us apart the
I was
too young
to un
derstand my
memories were
non-linear the
steps were
non-linear my
queerness was
hiding inward and
today I'm
listening again as
my memories are
gliding forward like
the moonwalk my
queerness is outward oh that's gorgeous I'm
so glad
you read
it again oh
that was
beautiful I
got goosebumps everywhere okay I'm going
to read my
poem I'm
sorry for
the technical I
don't know Shimshon and
I both
had it
on our
end so
I think
probably everyone else
did too um
so I'm
glad you
did it
a second
time thank
yo
u so
much I
always title my
poem after
the album so mine's called
Thriller Thriller came to
me first via my
sister's brief new
boyfriend Jesse who
brought the
cassette over after school they
were attending General Vanier Secondary in
grade nine two
years ahead I
just turned 12 so
Lisa had
to be
13. Jesse probably had
the first mullet I
ever saw well before it
was a
thing with
hockey jocks all
those loose curls kissing the
back of
his neck he
and my
sister didn't date more
than a
few weeks I
thin
k they
broke up
over the
phone but
a lot
of info about
that guy has
rattled around in
my head since Jesse and
his denim jacket with
the upturned collar at
our particle board table one night my
parents were out burning a
small blob of
thick black shiny paste between two knives he'd
heated up
on the
red coils of
the stove what's that I
asked and
he with
a big pen bobbing between his
lips said motorcycle grease his wisp of
a moustache pierced left earlobe because
the right ear signalled gay though
though
lots of
folks in
83 thought
any man
with an
earring had
to be
queer sporting a
dangly silver pair
of handcuffs which
my sister explained was
because Jesse had
moved from
Toronto all
the kids
in the
big city wore
an earring Toronto fresh on
the tongue not
a week
or so
into school some thug ripped the
handcuffs out tearing his earlobe clear through conformity violence is
one of
the strategies small-town men use as
a social control which
I challenged in
my 20s by
being visible as
fuck in
cas
e you're
wondering why
I'm a
fag who
wears pink but
I still didn't
get my
own George Michael hoops pierced until
I was
31 because
of that old too
familiar story nobody had
seen anything like
Thriller before MJ moonwalking so
much singularity into culture the
red leather jacket a
music video as short film those large ensemble pop dance numbers zombies dancing hello genius the
white socks and
short tight pants one
white glove details so fresh they made metonymies I
learned to
dance watching the
vi
deos for
that album 38 years
later I
still thrust my
knees forward and
flip onto the
ends of
my shoes in
the signature Billie Jean Ballerina Redux balancing on
the dance floor of
my toes like
I know
how to
hold four decades at
bay Wow there
you go I love it wow do
you know
what I
really adore about your poem Hasanis that
it came later I
love that you
know where
were you
when and
your when was 1999 yeah
1999 that's
when I- that's like
my first
time like
hearing about
the song
really um I
was um w
e
just came
to like
you know
Canada and
uh we
went to
our family friend's
house and you
know and
I heard
that song
there for
the first
time and
it just
like it
kind of
like brought
back memories because
I know
my my
father was
like a
huge you
know MJ fan so I
know in
the 80s like
he he had
the mullet as
well and
you know and
everything but
I wasn't- I literally wasn't
born until
87 so
I was
still you
know it
wasn't even a thing then but um
but yeah it
was totally like that
was my
first time
actu
ally hearing
the song
and it's
always just
been like always
brings back
nostalgia I
always think
about like Iraq because
I always
think about
like I
think about my
dad and
like and
that song
brings back lots
of memories you
know and
also like
at the
same time
like I
remember that
encounter with
that boy
because if
that happened
that same
night I
was um at
the family
house and
I don't
remember who
he was
I I
don't know
like we
haven't seen
him since but
yeah I
he almost
like saw
my queerness like
he knew
like I
was queer and
like he
like touched
me and
stuff and
then of
course like
I got
separate I
got separated away because
you know being
Muslim and
queer like
you know
it can't
happen like
so they
just like
shut it
off and
then I- my
family just
took me
home and
stuff after
right so yeah
so I
I- that- yeah
like those those double memories that
I always
think about
when I
think of
the song
and definitely brings
back that
moment in
1999 I'll
never forget it
you know so the
thing that um
we had
a bit
of uh- not
difficulty but
it took
a little
bit of
back and
forth because the
albums I
proposed didn't resonate with
you for age and
you know
for culture you
grew up
in a
different time
and place than
me yeah um uh and but
I love that like you
know the
top selling album of
all time it's
no wonder that
there's some
overlap I
love I
love how the- well you
know it's
such an
ugliness that
the Western culture penetrates right takes over but
it also creates a
common language it-
it- a
comm
on touchstone yeah which
I think
is really exciting my
friend Nijat who is
Uighur so
he's from
China from about
Uighur and
so is
Muslim he
said that he learned
how to
speak English the
motivation was that
he could
understand Michael Jackson lyrics he
wanted to
know what
Michael Jackson was
singing about and
it encouraged him
to learn
English and
that's how
he ended
up in
Canada eventually this fabulous path that
Michael Jackson opens up that the
touchstones I
think that's
so exciting yeah
it's a
lso
like so
universal in
the sense like um
for me
like I I
obviously wanted
to know
what the
words were
so I
was sort
of like
enticed to
like know
and and
you know
when you
pronounce it
you know
like especially with
an accent it's
just like it sounds
completely different
but that's
how that's
how you
learn I
think the
language through
reading through song especially and and
I think
English especially like
you know
English songs it's
a universal language like
if you
go right
now to
the Middle Eas
t like you
know you
know Beyonce and all
the big
names Lady Gaga that's
all they
pretty much
listen to
and so
it's a
universal language that
I think transcends and
that's what
Michael Jackson did
for like
I think
the 80s and
even the
90s like um you
know as
what Lady
Gaga does
now for for
the you
know the
modern modern age shall
we say so
yeah like-
it totally like-
I totally like you
know wanted to
learn like
English and and
although at
that time
it sounded really
foreign to
me I'm
like okay
wh
at are
they saying exactly but
I want I
I wanted
to learn
because that's I
I was
motivated to
do so and so for
me at
least what
spoke for
me is
just that
the music itself the
idea of
strings and and
just that
song just
like just
a beat the
beat is
just so- you
know so
universal and and and
I think um and-
it really- and
it really
got to
me so and
brought back
a lot
of memories that
I- just
like that
I I
started writing about-
same with
you like
you know
of course
with like
you know
the hoop- the
ear hoops and
stuff that's
something I
also like
honestly I
also like
one time
like I
was told oh if
you- if
you wear
this side then
you're you're
gay if
you don't
want to
the other
side you're
not gay
so like when
i was
like just
like you
know a
couple years
later like
that was
something that
I was
like- I
wanted to
wear one
and and
of course
my my
family wouldn't let
me and-
because they
said you
know you
don't want
to be
like the- you
know the
queers and
stuff and and
so that
was just
someth
ing that
I also
dealt with
I think um this idea
of like why
does it
matter which
side one
would wear
it you
know they
always wonder like
why why
does it
really matter right and
I remember watching television like seeing various you
know men with
earrings and
then looking to
see what
side you
know are
they gay oh no and
then in
the- ever- slowly it
trickled into
Cornwall that it wasn't
just people
who came
from Toronto people
had pierced ears and
then when
you saw
people like
George Michael with
both his
ears pierced I
remember it
was a
big deal
people were
like so
is he
bisexual like
what's this mean I I
was always really interested in
the coda of
how gay people identified like in North
America they
used to
wear red
ties in
the 50s so
if you
wore red
tie it
was sort
of like
the swingers and
the hedgehogs out
on their
front doors right
or there there's
all these the
coda of cruising and
the- and
the hanky code obvious obviously I
always thought
that stuff
was super interesting and
as a
young queer coming out like you
hear it
and then
you latch on right you
hear oh people who
wear their and
it's an
insult or
are you
going to
get your
right ear
pierced and
you have
to figure
out what
that is but
then you
look everywhere who's
got the
right ear
pierced what there's
a way
to tell there's
a there's
a sign I
need I
need one
of those yeah it's
almost like
um it's interconnected with
your own
identity right but like
I'm just
curious like maybe
you can
tell me
like you
know teach
me ab
out
the history like so what how
did they
come up
like the
right side
makes you
gay like
I've always
been like
curious oh
no I
wonder I
don't know
that actually I
wonder how
that is did
you have coda like
that was
there is
there like
how do Muslim men who
are gay in repressive countries find each
other yeah
definitely you
know the
colourful clothes and
stuff and
you know
what's interesting and
you might want
to hear
this so
like in
the Middle East like um you're only
gay that
if you
if you
if yo
u're
a bottom but
if you're
at top they
say oh
you look
for boys so it's
more socially accepted for
being a
top than
by being
gay gay like
for by
being a
bottom they- it's
it's more
frowned upon
they look
down upon
you but but
technically you
could be-
you could
be like
you know-
you know
more socially accepted if
you sleep
around with ah
the same
sex but
you're just a
top and
not a
bottom so
that's always
been something
that I've
always wondered
about like
it's like
why- like
what makes
a diffe
rence I
mean you're
still you
know you're
still queer right like just
something I've
been thought
about as
well but
yeah I
think yeah in
a lot
of ways maybe just
the way
like you
know like people like talk and
stuff they
say oh
like like
for example I
vote- like
you know
my family's always
say because
I talk
with my
hands and
everything so
that that
they always
saw me
as this
feminine you
know little
boy uh
because I
talked that
way so
I think
that's how they
sort of
like I
guess they have
like
you
know uh
private parties a
lot of
his private parties like there's
nothing really
that's publicly out
there to
say gay
because you
know you
can't really
be gay
in Lebanon or anywhere in the
Middle East
really um Jordan is
a bit
more socially accepted um it's um but
still like
it's all
all these
parties like
um they're
all like
very private and and
then yeah
they just
need I
guess um yeah the
code maybe
like the
way they're
dressed you
know if
they're they're ultra fashionable or
you know
if t
hey
wear any
sort of
jewellery that
automatically says you
know they they're
probably queer so
jewellery on
men that's
an automatic thing
as well
too I
find because
like um yeah
like Muslim men
shouldn't be
wearing jewellery technically that
that's what the
rule is
but who
cares right so
you you
sort of
walk the
line between uh legible uh but
in denial like publicly deny and but
you can
still publicly gesture uh
together isn't
that fascinating yeah
or like holding hands like
I find
that very
fas
cinating I- a
lot of men in
the Middle East
hold hands and
it's socially accepted but not
necessarily that they're
not necessarily queer and
stuff like
or or
they are
but they're
just not
out and
stuff but
yeah I
noticed like
a lot
of men
hold hands and
you know
like they
act like
you know
like the
couple really and
I was
when I
was like
oh my
god like
you know
if you
see that here then
you think
that automatically a
couple but
over there is
something else
it's uh it's
not something like that
th
at's frowned
upon they just
that's just
affection that's
intimate affection yeah
intimacy um yeah isn't
that amazing yeah it's so
interesting how things are
so different culturally what
you know
for each and
each culture no and have
you been
back since
you've immigrated um well
I went with
my family once
in 2010 but
not in
Iraq but
we went
to like Jordan and
Syria um but
since I've
been out
no I
haven't been um so and
I don't
think I
will to
be honest Michael um
I think
just just
for safety reas
ons um you
know especially now
that we
have like you
know two
dads and
a baby right
it's- I
don't think
that that
will fly in
the middle east
so so
it's better
just to just
for the
safety of
you know like
my family and
everything just
to kind
of you
know- the
goal like
I would
love to
travel but
just not
the Middle
East you
know I
just think
that's you
know a Red
Zone you
know I
may say
so yeah well maybe
one day maybe
one day
yeah I
mean as
culture evolves yeah
and the
way I
see like
I think we
're- there's
a bit
of ah
progress in
terms of
like queer
acceptance but
I feel
like right
now especially there's
also a
bit of
backwardness like I
know like uh
for example like um a
lot of
like the the
political leaders in
the Middle
East like
in Kuwait and
other countries right
now they're they're
saying like
even though
in the
West- erm
you know
it's accepted that they're
they're not
accepting it so
I feel
like even
though we go
one step forward but
we go seven
steps backward in
that region so
I think it's still
a lot
of work I
don't know
when that
day will
come maybe not in
our lifetime maybe you
know a lot
far in
the future but baby steps
I guess
right some early
baby steps yeah well literal baby steps may
be in
your case yeah right for
sure haha Well that's our 20
minutes it's
a fast 20
minutes do
you have
something you
want to
add though no that
was awesome thank
you so
much for
having me and thank
you so
much for uh
being awesome as
well taking
care of
all the sounds and
everyth
ing um
it's been
wonderful well um let's
all give Hasan a
warm thank
you of
applause yay if
you haven't already uh check
out the
Facebook event page for more info there's bio there uh a
link to Hasan's website um the
soundtrack group is amazing place
to find
out about upcoming events I
want to
encourage you
to buy Hasan's books they're amazing I
just- I- War
/ Torn- War
/ Torn is
that right
yeah amazing it
just it
just destroyed me
it was
so beautiful it's
a great
poetry book write
him fan mail
invite him
to read
in your
town teach
his brilliant books
in your
classes I
want you
so much yeah of
course and
I want
to thank
the UBC Equity and
Inclusion Office for
sponsoring this
event and the
Inspired Word
Cafe for
helping to
get the
word out we
will see
you next week at
Soundtrack big
kisses
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